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The AIH Transcript for October 08, 2020

Hosts: Peter Armstrong and Chris Howden

PETER ARMSTRONG: Hello, I’m Peter Armstrong. Sitting in for Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I’m Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

PA: State of terror. Thirteen people are charged with plotting to kidnap Michigan's governor, and start a civil war — and a state senator says responsibility goes beyond the men accused.

CH: An isolating incident. A northern Manitoba First Nation declares an outbreak of COVID-19 — worrying residents and pushing them into lockdown.

PA: The devils literally in the details. Q-Anon, the conspiracy theory involving evil Satan worshipers and a heroic Donald Trump, is kicked off Facebook — but our guest says that won't end its influence.

CH: Keep calm and don't carry on. With COVID-19 numbers in parts of the country rising, British Columbia's top doctor, Bonnie Henry, just wants people to be kind, calm and respectful.

PA: He's got issues, all of them. When an Iowa man is caught stealing an election sign off someone's lawn, a local newspaper prints a small story — which prompts that same man to attempt a cover-up by stealing every copy.

CH: And... the bird, and the birds, and the bees. As a pandemic hobby, a British family hatched a duck egg. But now that that duck has hit puberty, it's hitting — and hitting on — everything in sight.

CH: As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that guesses the first one there was a rotten egg.

Part one: Michigan governor plot, Bonnie Henry, stolen newspapers

Michigan governor plot

Guest: Dayna Polehanki

CH: Today, Michigan's Democratic governor, Gretchen Whitmer, insisted that "hatred, bigotry, and violence have no place in [that] great state." But she was speaking in response to frightening proof that all three definitely exist in Michigan. Authorities have now laid terrorism charges against a group of men they accuse of plotting to undermine the government and attack politicians, including Governor Whitmer herself. Here's some of what the governor had to say.

GRETCHEN WHITMER: Attorney General Dana Nessel was joined by officials from the Department of Justice and the FBI to announce state and federal charges against 13 members of two militia groups, who were preparing to kidnap and possibly kill me. When I put my hand on the Bible and took the oath of office 22 months ago, I knew this job would be hard. But I'll be honest. I never could have imagined anything like this. I want to start by saying thank you to our law enforcement. I also want to thank Attorney General Nessel and the U.S. Attorney's Berge and Schneider and their teams for pursuing criminal charges that hopefully will lead to convictions, bringing these sick and depraved men to justice.

CH: That was Michigan governor, Gretchen Whitmer speaking in Lansing today. Dayna Polehanki is a Democratic State Senator. We reached her in Livonia, Michigan.

PA: Senator Polehanki, Governor Whitman says the man accused those plot are, quote, sick and depraved. How would you describe them?

DAYNA POLEHANKI: Yeah, sick and depraved is accurate. I think, you know, I can't begin to get inside the mind of someone who would plot to kidnap and try a sitting governor for treason. I wouldn't want to go there. But, yeah, I would add psycho. [chuckling]

PA: Right. What have you heard from Governor Whitman since this alleged plot was revealed?

DP: Nothing personally from the governor, but I did watch her press conference. I know she has to be concerned for her family, her daughters, her safety. She, you know, knew there would be bumps in the road signing up to be the governor of a state. But no one should have to be put through what she's being put through today.

PA: We've been listening to the FBI and hearing from public officials, what can you tell us about how this alleged plot was supposed to work?

DP: Well, I read the affidavit, and it looks to me like an undercover agent infiltrated the groups, went to some meetings. And it's my understanding, based on reading it, that not only did they want to kidnap and try the governor for treason, they wanted to blow up her residence. They wanted to storm our capitol building in Michigan, take hostages, kidnap politicians, blow up police cars. And they had gone so far as to engage in firearms training, tactical drills, getting law enforcement addresses. That's pretty scary. It was, it seems to me, based on my reading, that it was an extensive months-long, well-planned plot.

PA: As you said, part of this plot involved an assault on the Michigan legislature. You were in that legislature when it was filled with armed protesters in SWAT gear earlier this year. With today's information added to that, how does all this leave you feeling about that day?

DP: Well, you know, I was almost tired of giving the same floor speech on the Senate floor in our capitol over and over again, begging the Michigan Capitol Commission or begging our Senate majority leader to do something. And, you know, I've been criticized as being a little alarmist. And I gotta tell you, [laughing] vindicated is the wrong word. But, you know, the threats were real. And my hunch that this is something very, very dangerous turned out to be true. So it was scary on April 30th, when it happened. And I was shaken up today with this news.

PA: Are you afraid? I mean, do you feel like there's more?

DP: You know, yes. You know, the attorney general said in interviews today that she thinks this is the tip of the iceberg. So, you know what, what plots have not been infiltrated yet by the FBI? I keep a bulletproof vest under my desk. And even today, you know, there were people with guns outside our capitol. And I had to be escorted out by the sergeants at arms. And I thought about putting my vest on but didn't really want to draw attention to myself. But this is something no one should have to get used to in their workplace.

PA: You say it's the tip of the iceberg. What is the broader thing that's happening that's allowing this to get to this place in Michigan?

DP: Well, I think the rhetoric coming from the White House, liberate Michigan. You know, I see a lot of signs about the governor being a tyrant. So if you complete the sentence, liberate Michigan from whom? From the tyrant. So these people, these crazy people with guns and apparently not much to do but plan these things, hear that and it's a call to action. You know, stand back, stand by. This type of rhetoric coming from even state leaders. And, of course, the White House does not help. And I think it's not a coincidence that we're seeing this type of plot come out right now.

PA: Liberate Michigan, of course, is a famous tweet by U.S. President Donald Trump.

DP: Yes.

PA: The governor today accused the president of giving comfort to those who spread fear and hatred and division. What do you think?

DP: Yeah, I would say I concur. They feel emboldened and maybe comforted is the right word to hatch these plots.

PA: Do you feel more safe now that the arrests have been made? Or has this just sort of opened a door and a window into a world that you worried existed, and know existed. And are you, as a result, even more scared?

DP: I don't feel any safer today. I do believe the attorney general when she says this is likely the tip of the iceberg. No, when I come to work and and come to the Senate floor each day, the very first thing I do is scan the gallery, the balcony above me, because, of course, guns are welcome in our state capitol. And, you know, I think it flies in the face of common sense why the Senate majority leader does not bring up my bill to ban guns from the capitol. So I certainly hope that after this news today that the majority leadership will be spurred into action, because words aren't enough. You can condemn these crazy people, but words aren't enough. He has a responsibility to keep visitors, staff and legislators safe inside our capitol.

PA: Senator Polehanki, thank you. This has been great. Thank you so much for this.

DP: Thank you.

Dana.

CH: Dayna Polehanki is a Democratic member of Michigan's Senate. We reached her in Livonia, Michigan.

Bonnie Henry

Guest: Bonnie Henry

CH: In Canada's two most populous provinces, the curve continues to un-flatten. In Quebec, officials reported 1,078 cases today. And in Ontario, there were a record-breaking 797 new cases. Both provinces have been dealing with a surge recently — leading to new public health measures, and new public concern. But in the country's third most populous province, messaging from officials has been a bit more hopeful lately. On Monday, British Columbia's Bonnie Henry said that after a period of rising cases, her province is flattening the curve. Dr. Bonnie Henry is the province's health officer. We reached her in Victoria.

PA: Dr. Henry, what's it been like for you to hear from Canada's top doctor that there's been a 40 per cent increase in daily COVID-19 numbers right across the country this week compared to last?

BONNIE HENRY: Yeah, that is very concerning, it is something of obviously we've been watching across the country since we all moved into summer and started restarting activities. We started to see increases a few weeks ago here in British Columbia and have taken some measures. But, you know, I think right now we need to recognize that we need to find ways to live with this virus, to ensure that we have important things like many of our businesses, like schools back in and still be able to manage with the virus circulating as hopefully as low levels as possible in our community.

PA: And managing those levels, though, amidst that, I think is important. What is your level of concern? As you say, we've seen a rise in numbers in B.C., not nearly as much as we're seeing in Quebec and Ontario. How concerned are you that that sort of growth we've seen in Quebec and Ontario could come to B.C.?

BH: You know, this is something that we're all wrestling with. We're trying to find that balance between keeping open as much as we can because we know that that's important for the health of our community. And having the public health resources to manage every single case and especially clusters of cases and outbreaks that we know happen in our long-term care homes. And to be able to detect and get on them really, really quickly. I think the other thing that we're seeing, of course, is that testing has increased across the country. The demographics of people who've been affected has been changed. But we know that even when young people, who mostly have very mild illness and recover, but when we have lots of people sick, it's going to spill over into more vulnerable populations. And that's the balance we have to find.

PA: I don't want to set off an interprovincial war here, but I wonder when you look at, and when you communicate with your counterparts in other provinces, how do you think B.C.’s COVID-19 response has compared with the other provinces?

BH: You know, I think we're all working flat out. We're all on the same page in how we're trying to approach this. But our pandemics have been different in different parts of the country. You know, we got hit early on. We spent a lot of time looking at our long-term care homes and how we could best protect them. The demographics and the way our populations are structured are quite different than places like Toronto and Montreal. So, you know, we all have the same approach in general and we're all trying to find ways to manage our own pandemic.

PA: I'm sure you read the Globe editorial today that said that Ontario’ Premier Doug Ford should try to take a page from B.C. where they've allowed medical experts like you to lead the pandemic news conferences. And I wonder, how important do you think it is that people get their information primarily from public health experts right now and not, in fact, get that information from politicians?

BH: Yeah, well, I can't really comment on how things are going and how things are done in Ontario, but I will say that here we have a very strong relationship with the political side. And we've also been able to work very closely with experts in at the B.C. CDC, at our lab, in the health care system. So we have a very strong team to be able to put those communication messages out. And, of course, we're in an election period right now, so it is that team that is continuing to put the messages out to talk to the public of what's going on because we cannot obviously take a step back from this in any way. And so that has been very helpful for us out here.

PA: I wonder what you're taking us on how or whether messaging needs to change as we get into a phase of the pandemic where we are seeing cases rising. You know, governments obviously a little more reticent about going into lockdown's this time around. People, certainly in Ontario, confused about what rules need to be followed. How does the messaging need to change as we move into this phase?

BH: Yeah. And, you know, this is this was the most challenging of our times. You know, this storm is going on for a long time. And we didn't know what it would look like right now. What we do know is that we're going into influenza season. So there's a whole bunch of complicating things that are coming at us. All of us. And the messaging that we've all been saying all along, and we really need to reinforce this. There's things that we as individuals need to do every single day that they're going to make a difference. And we've seen that. We've seen we can bend our curve by doing those things. We started to see a bend in our curve again here in B.C. by focusing on the basics, you know, hand cleaning, staying away from others when you're sick, making sure you keep your distance, wearing a mask when you can't keep your distance. And then we need to have those measures in place that don't give this virus a chance to spread widely. And that's the challenging piece. And it depends on the situation. It may be different for different neighbourhoods, for different parts of the community, depending on how the virus is moving. And those things can be challenging. So I think it's important to follow the advice of your local public health leaders because they know what's going on in your neighbourhood, in your community best. But the very basics are the same things we all need to do. And part of that as well is keeping our contacts small, focusing on the important things of going back to school, getting back into many workplaces and keeping our social connections small while we're in this period of time when we know that there's going to be risk of transmission of this virus.

PA: And what about you? I mean, what kind of a toll has this year and this work and this whole situation taken on you?

BH: You know, all of us have found this hard. It's gone on a long time. But, you know, the things that we do in our community, even when we're physically apart to connect with each other is what helps us all get through this. And I'm very lucky. I have family, I have friends, you know, and my work colleagues as well. And we do this, we support each other. And that's what we all need to do.

PA: You've even received some death threats through this.

BH: [awkward chuckle] As I say, when people are in crises, sometimes lashing out and being angry is one of their ways of responding to the anxiety, the uncertainty. And, I mean, it's never right. [laughing] And I worry about my family and others, but I'm not alone in this. And for the most part, I just think people have been incredibly positive. And it’s that positive part and that support that we can give to each other that we're going to need and that we're going to need to keep up in these next few months.

PA: Your guidance has just it's been lauded by so many people through this. I think The New York Times called you the top doctor who aced the coronaviruses test. Is there anything, as you look back over the course of the last many months, and look at your leadership through this pandemic, is there anything that you look back and wish you could get a do-over on?

BH: [laughing] There's lots of things. I think we're all trying to find her way on this. You know, we're trying to keep things as reasonable as we can. And I always say there's going to be the recriminations and the class action lawsuits and the public inquiries. But really, what we need to do is recognize that we don't always have all the answers and be able to give the best information that we can. And I think, you know, as public health leaders across this country, we've done a pretty good job on that, and Canada has done a good job on that. But part of this also is that people in Canada listen. And we do know what we need to do. We are able to do it. We've been there before. It's really hard right now because it seems like it's going on a long time. But we're not in this alone, the global community is going through this as well. And those words in a crisis, words do matter. And so, you know, being kind matters. It means treating another person with respect because we don't always know their story. And being calm is a way that we help settle ourselves as well as showing our compassion for others. And that's really important. Those are the things that keep us safe.

PA: Well, and they’re things that keep us together, too. So thank you for this. And thanks for doing that.

BH: Oh, thank you very much.

CH: That was British Columbia's provincial health officer, Bonnie Henry, in Victoria. For more on this story, visit our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

Stolen newspapers

Guest: Seth Boyes

CH: It didn't matter where you looked that day. If you wanted to get your hands on a print copy of the September 2nd edition of the local Dickinson County News around Spirit Lake, Iowa, it was nearly impossible. Nothing at the check-out lines at the local supermarkets. Nothing in the neighbourhood convenience stores. And every single newspaper boxes was plumb out. By 2020 standards, it was a fairly unremarkable news day. So staff at the Dickinson County News had no idea why their paper was flying off the shelves. But staff writer Seth Boyes had a hunch that a short story that ran in the paper that day had something to do with it. A story about a local businessman named Peter De Yager — and a stolen presidential election sign. We reached Seth Boyes in Spirit Lake, Iowa.

PA: Seth, take us back to that day in September. How did you first learn that all these newspapers were missing?

SETH BOYS: Well, actually, it kind of started with a local delivery driver. And he stopped in and was dropping off our package. And he also wanted to stop and get a paper, which he doesn't usually do. In fact, I think our front desk said he never has done that before. And he told us that there were no papers anywhere along his route that day. And he also happen to mentioned that there was one location at least that told him they had some footage of a guy stealing all the papers on their security cameras. So from that point, I started making some calls. I called round to the local PD to see if they'd had any complaints about thefts, and none of them had. So I started calling some of our drop off locations. And I think it was probably the second call that it ended up I got the particular business who had the man on camera. So I was kind of the first step.

PA: Did the pieces of the story then start to come together pretty fast? I mean, at what point did you think that this story might have something to do with the story about the stolen election sign?

SB: I got to thinking about why anyone would want to take all the papers. And it did occur to me that we'd run that police blotter, what we call the sirens, in that week's edition. And like you said, Mr. De Yager’s name happened to be in there. And he's a fairly well-known businessman over in a neighbouring county here. As I was going out to that location that I found the footage at, I saved a couple of pictures from other publications of Mr. De Yager on my phone. And I showed it to the owner, and she said, well, yeah, it looks like him. [both chuckling] He was wearing a mask, but it sure looks like him. So I thought, this is just bizarre. And so I started making some other stops around town, started making some calls. Our front desk got me a list of all the locations that we drop off papers at every week as opposed to our mail delivery, which is another ironic thing about this because the paper is not only available online, but subscribers get the paper directly mailed to the residences.

PA: Right. Right. Right.

SB: Stealing papers out of the racks is going to have an effect, but not as large an effect as one would think.

PA: I just want to dig into the police blotter because you put it out. This was literally, what, one or two sentences. Tell us what you had published in the police blotter about Peter De Yager in that initial story?

SB: All we said was that Mr. De Yager had been charged with first-degree-theft and trespassing in such and such address, that he had stolen a political sign out of a yard on this date and time.

PA: So it's not a big write up at all?

SB: No, absolutely not a big write up. In fact, if I look at it, it would be a grand total of three sentences on page three.

PA: [laughing]Right. I think it was a Biden sign that he stole. Was there any discussion of doing a bigger write up on it?

SB: Our editorial decision at that point was just to treat it like any other small crime. [laughing] But then when the newspapers started disappearing, well, then it kind of became a stranger issue. It's one of those cases in which the severity of the crime isn't what makes it news. It's the bizarre nature of the crime that made it news.

PA: Well, and the store, one of the stores where he's accused of stealing all these signs, was he not something of a regular there?

SB: Yeah, she said that he's a fairly regular customer and she recognized him by name when she reviewed her footage. [laughing] So, yeah.

PA: Have I got this right that she actually confronted him. Instead of calling the police, she waited for him to come back in and was like, hey man, did you steal all those papers? Like, what happened there?

SB: She knew who it was. She figured that he would be back, evidently. And evidently, she was right. And, yeah, she confronted him and said, I saw you take the papers. And he initially denied that. And then he changed the story once she said that she had him on camera so that he had mistaken the papers for the Northwest Iowa Shopper, which is another one of our publications that happens to be free. It's full of ads and coupons and things like that. He claimed that he wanted to cut out all the coupons for a particular restaurant.

PA: Let me just recover the sequence of events to make sure I've got this right. This gentleman is accused of stealing a lawn sign and gets written up three sentences in your paper. And I guess he worried about that so much that he went out and stole, allegedly, all of the newspapers that were distributed throughout the entire area, region, town, like, how big of a region did he try to get?

SB: Our region is kind of formed around a local chain of lakes. He didn't go quite that far. He stuck to Spirit Lake, where our office is located.

PA: We went from one story with three lines in the paper. How big did the second story about the theft of the newspapers end up running in your newspaper?

SB: We put that on the front page, for sure. So we're talking a column on the front and three large columns in the back. [PA chuckles] So there's the photos on the front of the security footage as well. And in addition, we ran it with another story that I wrote just on general comments about sign theft in the area. Our local sheriff said that it's actually become somewhat of a large problem in the last couple months since science started going up. There's been lots of signs that have been reported stolen in the area. There's been signs that have been vandalized with spray paint. There's been a lot of things that have been happening. It just happens that Mr. De Jager’s one of the more notable people that's been caught doing it.

PA: It sure does speak to the power of print and certainly the power of your newspaper, doesn't it?

SB: Yeah, I suppose it would. From my earliest days with the company, you know, we've had conversations about the role of media, the role of particularly print journalism in keeping people accountable. And, in this case, [laughing] the resistance to that I suppose was met with a larger reaction.

PA: Where do things stand now? I mean, is this massive news in the community? Are people still talking about it? Are there additional charges made against him? Where are we in this sort of sequence of events today?

SB: He has actually pled guilty to the charges that have been levelled against him. He pled guilty to the same theft and to the trespassing. And then after the gas station filed their charges for the paper theft, he's also pled guilty to those.

PA: Well, listen, as I say, it is a fascinating story. It is a fascinating testimony to the power of local press. And we sure appreciate you sharing it all with us today.

SB: Thank you, Peter. I do appreciate it.

PA: Take good care.

SB: Thank you. Bye.

CH: Seth Boyes is a staff writer at the Dickinson County News. We reached him in Spirit Lake, Iowa.

Part two: Manitoba First Nation COVID, Facebook Q-Anon

Manitoba First Nation COVID

Guest: Glenn Keeper

CH: For months now, cities in Canada have faced the largest outbreaks of COVID-19. Which is exactly what you'd expect, of course — since the virus can spread more easily in densely populated areas. But there's been concern about the virus spreading to isolated communities — because limited access to healthcare and overcrowded housing could quickly create serious problems. Last weekend, those fears were realized, when a COVID outbreak was declared in an isolated First Nations community in Manitoba. Little Grand Rapids is about 250 kilometres north of Winnipeg, near the Ontario border. There are now 25 confirmed cases in the small community. Glenn Keeper lives in Little Grand Rapids. That's where we reached him.

PA: Mr. Keeper, how are you and your family doing?

GLENN KEEPER: We're doing good, for the time being.

PA: Right, I mean, what has this been like for you guys, though?

GK: Very quiet and like a ghost town. We can go outside, but we’re told to wear masks. So many people are allowed at a store for only a certain amount of time. Five people in the store for like 15 minutes at a time, that's it.

PA: Right.

GK: People are nervous to get close. And do your mind backing up to stay six feet in or if somebody else sees a new line, splitting apart. Being isolated and not moving around, that's probably one of the hardest parts.

PA: Would it be fair to say that yours is a community, that people go outside and enjoy the outdoors probably more than they do in the city, I would imagine?

GK: Oh yeah, definitely.

PA:How concerned are you about this outbreak?

GK: Pretty concerned. I have kids to worry about over here. They're playing with their tablets or devices, whatever they have, keep themselves occupied. They want to go outside, but we tell them that they can't go outside due to what's going on there. Pretty understanding.

PA: Give me a sense, I mean, you know, we're all worried about COVID and about various outbreaks. How concerned are you about what this outbreak might mean for such a small town?

GK: Just I don’t know what's going to happen. That's the worst thing I'm thinking of is where are we going to live if this actually gets any worse? What are we going to do? Can't go to the city because I'm pretty sure people will be scared of Little Granders, thinking that they might catch something.

PA: Have you talked a lot with people in the community? I mean, how worried are you about others? You sound like you've decided to stick with the guidelines, stay inside, follow the rules. How worried are you that others might not do that?

GK: I worry for them, but they do what they gotta do in order to get by.

PA: Right.

GK: Can't stop anybody from doing what they got to do to get by. The worst case is more people are going to get sick if this thing doesn't get any better.

PA: Right. And you've got a nursing station in town, but there's no hospital nearby, is there?

GK: No hospitals. We’ve got the nurse's station. We've got the staff from Southeast coming up, helping out with the community.

PA: So what does happen if somebody gets really sick, like if they need to go on a ventilator, or get oxygen?

GK: I think they probably get medevacked or asking people self-quarantine themselves for the time being just to be on the safe side.

PA: What do we know at this point about how COVID got into this community in the first place?

GK: There's all kinds of news that people how they came in. Somebody from town came in, didn’t have it. And then they had a feast and went from there. They're not too sure how it actually got in, but somebody was sick and came in, didn't know they were sick, I guess.

PA: Do you worry that there's gonna be some finger-pointing and maybe even some anger?

GK: Oh, there's finger-pointing and that already. But you can't blame anybody for what's going on. It's not their fault. It’s not anybody's fault. It went from one person to three to four or whatever, yeah.

PA: And, you know, we talked at the beginning about you don't know how long this will last, do you have --

GK: Yeah, we don't know. We're thinking maybe a few weeks. Could be a month. Who knows? But since it's gotten worse, I don't know how long we're going to go for.

PA: Right.

GK: And apparently, they’re supposed to be sending tents out here for people who get COVID checks, checkups. So make things a little bit quicker.

PA: And as the spread, like, what happens to those people? Where are they going once they do get a diagnosis? Do they have a place that they can go isolate from their family and be safe and get the treatment?

GK: I’m not sure how they're doing that. But from what I can gather, I'm thinking they're isolating you in one part of your house. But I don't know how they can manage that because you've got families in the house that move around and if they're sending them out.

PA: And it's October now, I mean, winter's coming.

GK: Yep.

PA: Does this get harder in the wintertime?

GK: I'm sure it's going to get harder.

PA: In what way?

GK: For the people that have woodstoves, going to have to go out eventually and cut your own wood, get your own wood to keep warm and keep your family warm. Fishing, ice fishing, it’ll affect us in a way out here.

PA: And have the authorities or the officials from from town or from the government or wherever, has anybody been trying to communicate with you about what to do?

GK: Yeah, they’ve been on the radio. They've been constantly on radio, reminding us, letting us know where we can go, who we can call.

PA: Give me a sense the difference between today and the concerns and the sense of the lockdown versus where you were even a few months ago, feeling like probably we've got this thing, everything's going to work out OK?

GK: That's what we thought. We thought everything was going to clear up. Everything was almost getting back to normal. Everybody was back at work, keeping their distance, wearing their masks. But lately, it got worse, and now, it’s just total lockdown. It’s kind of scary from where we're at. I don't like the feeling of this.

PA: I really appreciate your candour and your insight into this and just telling us what's going on. Take care, sir.

GK: Yes, sir.

CH: Glenn Keeper lives in the First Nation community of Little Grand Rapids, Manitoba. In Ottawa today, Canada's Indigenous Services Minister was asked about the challenges of delivering a coronavirus vaccine, once it's created, to Indigenous communities. Marc Miller's answer went beyond the challenge of how remote some communities are.

MARC MILLER: Look, this is documented in the reports that I cited previously. People just don't want to show up. I think one of the thing… [deep sigh] I felt a lot of gut-wrenching things this week. But one thing that hit me harder than I’d expected was some words that were shared to me by a regional chief when he said that people they normalize the situation. They just expect to be treated like garbage when they go in. I don't know why that bothers me so much. Accepting the status quo, that's totally unacceptable. It's just revolting. The testimonial that all of us have heard in recent weeks, and that is embodied in this report is just shocking. You know, Indigenous peoples aren't surprised by what happened this week, that they're disgusted, but they're not surprised because it's happened before. I think Canadians are, it was on video, obviously. But I think people are shocked by the fact that this is a situation. And all instances of racism, they're unacceptable when you're at your most vulnerable. So to when it comes to interactions with police forces and excessive use of force because people are at their most vulnerable. But why the hell would I go get a flu vaccine if I was gonna get treated like garbage? I mean, just you wouldn't. You’d just say I'm not gonna do it? There's also been, you know, horrible instances of testing on Indigenous people in the past. And so that skepticism, we're not talking about anti-vaxxers. We're talking with people who've been treated terribly by what should be a first-class system in this country. And so their fear of the system is legitimate. When you give them control over the system, they trust the people that are serving them. We have a challenging, And Val and Tom have it as well, of convincing, when we get a COVID vaccine, we have to deploy it in a culturally sensitive way to people that don't want it, one, are entitled to get it as soon as everyone else gets it. Perhaps sooner given vulnerabilities. But two, don't want to feel like guinea pigs at the same time, because it's their grandfathers and grandmothers were, in some cases, have stories of being tested on. And we're not in the realm of conspiracy theories. This is real legitimate fear towards a healthcare system that continues to fail them.

CH: That was Indigenous Services Minister Marc Miller in Ottawa today.

[Music: Fiddle]

Facebook Q-Anon

Guest: Angelo Carusone

CH: Facebook has finally banished Q-Anon. The complex, incoherent right-wing conspiracy theory is purported to come from an anonymous, high-level official within the U.S. government known as "Q". In essence, it revolves around the idea that Donald Trump is as at war with a deep-state cabal — the members of which engage in Satan worship and child sex trafficking. Now, after months of pressure and promises, Facebook has removed Q-Anon-related pages, groups, and Instagram accounts. Angelo Carusone is president of the left-leaning media watchdog Media Matters. We reached him in Washington, D.C.

PA: Mr. Carusone, do these actions taken by Facebook this week, do they have any chance of actually stopping this conspiracy theory from spreading?

ANGELO CARUSONE: No, they can't possibly. It's too late. If they did this back in March, when Apple did it, when Roku did it, when Eventbrite did it, it would have had a really big effect. But, at this point, it's too late. Facebook not only let the conspiracy theory metastasize and spread, but they actually were the single largest driver of growth to the Q-Anon community over the past six months.

PA: Really? Because, I mean, when I think of Q-Anon, I think of Reddit, I think of 4Chan, I think of, you know, sort of the more fringy parts of the Internet. Facebook was that big of a role?

AC: Yeah, hands down. AndI'm not being hyperbolic. We have the receipts. What happened is, you know, Q-Anon has been around since 2017. There's a reason that more people started talking about it more recently, and it's because of its explosive spread. We went back and did the analysis. We looked at the last six months. But if you just look at the last three months alone, the Q-Anon community has a 24 per cent growth rate on Facebook. The majority of people that join were recommended by Facebook. Literally, you know, Facebook says to them, hey, here's a page you may want to join. Here's a group that you may like. They were the single biggest driver of growth to the Q-Anon community in the past six months.

PA: So with that in mind, how hard has it been to convince Facebook to take this kind of action against Q-Anon?

AC: It's been a Herculean task. And just to point out how significantly challenging it was, when they finally decided to take any kind of an action against Q-anon, it was right at the end of August. And what they said they would do is eliminate only the Q-Anon pages or groups that contained sort of a lot of explicit threats of violence. So if they were vague, they would leave them. And then only then, only when they first started, they would only enforce it against a very, very extreme and limited subset. And when we even tried to see if they were enforcing that very little standard together, within just a few days, we found 19 significant pages that even violated their own explicit calls for violence.

PA: What do you think the tipping point is? Why do you think at the end, Facebook finally relented on this?

AC: They know what the political and cultural climate is right now. And the simple reality is that the likelihood for some kind of civil unrest or violence centred around or following the 2020 election is high. And one of the major drivers of that outside of militia groups is the Q-Anon community because this is what they have been waiting for. They call it a storm. And it is this idea that the deep state and the media are going to steal the election from Trump. And as a result of that, they need to get out there and fight back.

PA: And it's not just explicit violence. I mean, Facebook has said that, you know --

AC: That’s right.

PA: Q-Anon posts may not directly promote violence, but they are, and the quote was linked to, you know, quote, different forms of real-world harm. What are they talking about there?

AC: Yeah, I mean, one of the things that happened is that, you know, initially, it was just about violence. And then yesterday, they said all Q-Anon. What they were referring to as real-world harm is sort of the vague innuendo of, you know, one of the things that Q-Anon believes is that the reporters and Democrats are storing children in pizza parlours and donut shops, possibly in homes, maybe the Hoover Dam. And what they're referring to there is you're not allowed to target a specific house or establishment with claims that there are children being stuffed into the walls because, of course, because the high likelihood that somebody will see that and then act on it, you know, and it does happen. We have had an incident in D.C. with the pizza parlour.

PA: Right.

AC: Which is obviously very famous. But there have been others. There've been donut shops have been attacked. A couple years ago, a man took over the Hoover Dam, an armed man, because he was trying to convince the Department of Justice to release a report that he believed was going to expose all the locations of the children that were being held by Democrats.

PA: And on the one hand, you know, you've said this isn't going to stop the spread of this conspiracy theory. I wonder, on the other hand, what are your concerns that that by Facebook taking this action will only convince Q-Anon followers that Facebook is in on it and it's part of the conspiracy and that that just sort of amplifies things from there?

AC: It will certainly be used as some proof. You know, I will say it is no matter how it's sliced and diced, as much as I can be critical of the action and you know, better late than never, you know? And this does have an effect. It will stop the recruitment. But to your point, and it is true, it will be used as evidence that they were right on the edge. You know, one of the things that the Q-Anon community has really been amped up about in the past week is that because of the election, Trump being sick, there is this moment that they feel is when the storm will finally come upon us, which is what they describe as this moment of this cultural upheaval. This is used as evidence to reinforce that. But the truth is, it almost doesn't matter because if they don't have real-world evidence or real-world things that they can point to, they make it up.

PA: Facebook has been a reluctant actor when it comes to a lot of these issues. I wonder, though, from your perspective, is this move a sign that perhaps finally the tech giant is going to start taking this information, threats to the upcoming election more seriously than they have?

AC: There's an open question about this latest action that I think will really determine the answer to your question. You know, if you look at the announcements, the statements, the policies, they talk about groups, they talk about pages. They have not clarified their policy about Q-Anon content, which is really important because, as it stands right now, they will eliminate pages and groups that are dedicated to Q-Anon. But if you are a page that is dedicated to a bunch of other things and you just happened to post a lot of Q-Anon content, you're fine. And, ultimately, it's the content that's the bigger problem. So they're still assessing how they deal with that. So, you know, I think it's a mixed bag, I think for right now, I'm reserving judgment there. I think it's a sign that they can be responsive to public pressure. And are concerned about some accountability. So I think that's the best we can hope for. Because two years ago, they basically operated like they were unimpeachable. They wouldn't show up to hearings. They know they didn't care. So I think that's the biggest thing we can read into this, is that at minimum, they're at least concerned about some accountability and that some pressure can at least make them move. But there's a lot more questions right now than there are answers.

PA: Well, and a lot to watch for going forward. Thanks for doing this today. Really appreciate it.

AC: Thank you.

CH: Angelo Carusone is president of the media watchdog Media Matters. We reached him in Washington, D.C.

[Music: Ambiant]

Bob the Duck

CH: It's easy to make fun of people who got really into making sourdough over the past few months. But as pandemic activities go, it's harmless at least. I mean, a loaf of sourdough isn't going to attack a postal worker because it's sexually frustrated. Unlike Donna Wilson's pandemic hobby. Ms. Wilson is a schoolteacher in Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, England. She thought it would be fun for her family to get, and hatch, some duck eggs. And on the fifth of May, they welcomed an adorable duckling into the world: Bob. Fast-forward five months to last weekend, when Donna Wilson wrote the following note to her postal worker. "To our postie: we are so sorry Bob has been attacking you! (He attacks us too.) He used to be lovely and cuddly! Now he is a vicious sex maniac!" They grow up so fast, don't they? One moment Bob was adorable and downy, paddling around in a bathtub. And the next, he's chasing a mail guy around, snapping his bill threateningly. Fortunately, the postal worker accepted her apology. And the accompanying bribe of a chocolate bar. Speaking of Bob, Donna Wilson told Deadline News, "We love him, but he is horrible." And she says she'll try to keep him under control. But that's what happens when you hatch a duck as a pandemic hobby. You get an innocent duckling, and you can just leave him alone to do his cute thing. Then he hits puberty — and it's all hands on duck.

[Music: Country twang]

Part three: Human Rights Watch: shackling report, Aboriginal cave art

Dog diving

CH: It's a dog-beat-dog world. Also a dog-gets-beaten-by-dog world. And I guess it's also, on rare occasion, a dog-ties-dog world. It's an athletic competition for dogs, would have been a more efficient way of saying all that. This weekend, dozens of dogs will compete in the North American Diving Dog Canadian regional qualifier. It's taking place in Blackfalds, Alberta. And yes, Megan-Rai Ferguson's border terrier, Wilson, will be competing. Ms. Ferguson also leads the Canadian division of the dog-diving organization. This morning she explained the event on "The Calgary Eyeopener".

MEGAN-RAI FERGUSON: We have three sports. We have one where it's called Distance Jump, where the dog runs down the dock and jumps into the water and is judged on how far they jump. And then we have one game where the toy is suspended above the water and the dog runs down the dock and tries to get the suspended toy. And then we have one that's a speed event and the dog jumps off the dock and is judged on how fast they retrieve the toy and bring it back to the owner.

DAVID GRAY: Is this just an evolution of the old summertime throw it off the dock and see if the dog will get it game?

MRF: Exactly. Yeah, except the kids don't jump in the water.

DG: [both laughing] OK. And what dog breeds compete in this sport?

MRF: Everything, right from a little Yorkeys all the way up to Great Danes and everything in between.

DG: But there's categories. You don't put the Yorkie up against the Great Dane, do you?

MRF: No, that's true. We do have two categories. We have a lap dog division, which is 16 inches and under at the shoulder. And then we have 16 inches, and above is open dogs. So they don't compete against each other. But you're really not competing against anybody. It really is just about you having fun with your dog. And your dog is judged on the distance that it jumps in the water. So everybody cheers. It's a lot of fun. It's really a great sport to get involved in. If you're not involved in any other dogs sports, it's a great starter sport because everybody has a lot of fun and everybody is, you know, helping you with your dog. So it's a great way to spend a day.

DG: So I need you to know that in preparation for this in-depth interview, I actually did my research and I watched the video about Spitfire, the Michael Jordan of jumping dogs.

MRF: Yes!

DG: Now, Spitfire is a Whippet. I can't believe how far this dog jumps. Like, what are the distances so people know? Do you have any off the top of your head? How far do these dogs go?

MRF: Well, so the world record holder right now is Saunders, and that's a Whippet. And she's jumping as thirty-six feet, two inches. And she's not a very big dog. She's I think about 21 inches or maybe 22 inches at the shoulder. Not a huge dog. And then in our lap dogs, there's Marbles. And actually, Marbles is a Canadian dog living in the States. And she's jumped 27 feet, six inches.

DG: And sorry, is Marble a Whippet?

MRF: No, no. Marble's a little mixed breed. She's a little Terrier mix, and she's about 13 inches at the shoulder.

CH: That was Megan-Rai Ferguson speaking with the CBC's David Gray about "dog diving" on "The Calgary Eyeopener".

Human Rights Watch: shackling report

Guest: Benjamin Ballah

CH: When Benjamin Ballah was a young man, he spent almost a year shackled inside a Liberian church. He was chained up and tormented with so-called "treatments" meant to rid him of demons. Finally, his brother rescued him — and got him treatment for his severe depression. Mr. Ballah's horrific experience is far from rare. A report out this week from Human Rights Watch says hundreds of thousands of people with mental illness around the world are shackled or locked up. After his rescue, Benjamin Ballah became a teacher — and an advocate for mental health service users in Liberia. We reached him in Monrovia.

PA: Mr. Ballah, this report by Human Rights Watch documents shackling in, like, 60 countries. What is it like knowing that so many people are going through trauma quite similar to what you experienced?

BENJAMIN BALLAH: So shackling is a terrible moment for the human race. So Human Rights Watch, they find out over 60 countries where people are still being shackled. I’m a survivor of shackling, so it’s a very terrible moment.

PA: Tell us about that experience. How did you end up being shackled in this church back in 2003?

BB: Two-thousand-and-three, I relapse. So my mother and my grandmother didn’t know how to took care of me having no knowledge of psychiatric hospital. There was a healing choice, so they took me there. It was a terrible moment at that hearing centre. When I got there, I was. confined to a log, where they changed my legs and I can no longer move. So I stayed in that room for 11 months.

PA: And just give me a sense of what was happening, you call it a relapse. What were you feeling? What was happening that made your mother and your grandmother decide to bring you there in the first place?

BB: I was hallucinating. And walking about, just roaming about, making a lot of noise, hearing strange voices. So they had no option but to find a solution where they can get me stabilized.

PA: And so you arrive at this place. They shackle you, they put chains around your legs. You're in a room for 11 months. What was the treatment like? What was happening while you were in that room?

BB: It was terrible. You won't have your regular you. Everyone had the perception that you are possessed with evil spirits. They thought it was witchcraft. Sometimes, they beat on you saying they want to get the evil straight out of you. They kept me hungry. No water to drink. Saying that when he's hungry, he will see the truth. So it was terrible.

PA: What else did they do to try to get these so-called demons out of you? They beat you. They starved you. What else happened?

BB: And then they place a liquid, like, something like a devil incense, they place it into your nostrils. It’s very painful, indeed.

PA: Like they'd lay you down and pour this this this liquid up through your nose?

BB: Yeah. While you are fighting, they got a group of men holding you down, and they lay you down straight on your back and just place the liquid into your nose, pour straight into your head. It's a terrible moment.

PA: And so after 11 months, your brother showed up there and rescued you. Why did he do that? What did he know?

BB: He had a conversation with my bishop. And the bishop told him, you need to get at me and then scour him to the only psychiatric hospital we have in Monrovia. The bishop told him, so he came for me. And in the psychiatric hospital, I was diagnosed as a depressed mental health disabilities sufferer. So I was treated for depression.

PA: You know, the Canadian newspaper, The Globe and Mail, just last year, said that six people with mental health conditions, including three children, were found chained to logs at faith healing centres in your country. Why do you think this practice continues in Liberia?

BB: The practice is like a lot of quote/unquote, normal people feel that people who have mental health conditions are of no use. So they feel that if someone has a mental health condition, that person should be shackled. They should no longer be, quote/unquote, among the normal people like they say in Liberia. It's just a lack of knowledge, yeah.

PA: So when you hear something like the Human Rights Watch call for a worldwide ban on shackling, to move away from a practice as dramatic and scary and frightening as this would obviously be a good first step. But when talking about mental health issues in your country and getting access to proper treatment for them, what else needs to happen to ensure people out there that are struggling are getting the help they need?

BB: Like I said, we need to increase voluntary allotment for mental health. So we have more money in mental health and we have people being trained, I believe this practice is going to stop.

PA: You know, you'd not only survived this terrible experience, but you were able to get help. And you have thrived. And you're leading the charge and having conversations like this. What message do you hope that your story sends?

BB: The message my story sends is that once you treat people with dignity, if you show some respect to persons with mental health conditions, I believe they can recover and can do better. Today, I completed my university service, and I'm a classroom teacher. And an advocate for mental health in this country. So I believe people with mental health conditions should be treated with some kind of dignity.

PA: Well, listen, we really appreciate the work you're doing on this, and we really appreciate you taking time to speak with us today.

BB: Yeah, thank you, Peter.

PA: Bye now.

BB: Thank you. Bye-bye.

CH: Benjamin Ballah is a shackling survivor who now advocates for people with mental illness. He was in Monrovia, Liberia. And you can find more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih

Prince William prize

CH: That was Prince William speaking with Reuters about his new award, "Earthshot".

Walla Walla onions

TB: Did Facebook take any other action against you other than saying, no, that image can't go up?

JM: No, luckily, they didn't disable our account or anything. And I'm hoping that we'll get some sort of human to review it and notice that it's not actually sexual. It's just a basket of onions.

TB: Are your onions particularly any aspect, I run the risk of losing our broadcast license [laughing] if I make any illusions, but you know what I mean?

JM: No, as far as I'm concerned, they're just regular-looking onions. I mean, you’d have to look at them in a very different way to see something sexual or attractive about them.

TB: Any human looking at it can clearly tell you those are some onions.

JM: Yeah. I mean, they’re nice onions, but they're still just onions.

CH: That was Jackson McLean, manager of Gaze Seed Company, speaking with the CBC's Ted Blades.

Aboriginal cave art

Guest: Paul Taçon

CH: In Australia, you'll sometimes find kangaroos, wallabies, and humans in the same place. But they're ignoring or avoiding each other. They almost never just hang out. Which is part of what makes a new study on particular works of aboriginal rock art so interesting. The ancient paintings all put an emphasis on humans' relationship to the natural world. And they included detailed depictions of people intermingling with those kangaroos and wallabies. Researchers estimate the paintings were made between 6,000 to 9,400 years ago. Paul Taçon is The Chair in Rock Art Research at Griffith University. He's been documenting these figures for more than a decade now. We reached Mr. Taçon in Queensland, Australia.

PA: Professor Tacon, how do you go about finding ancient rock art like this in the first place?

PAUL TACON: I always work closely with Aboriginal traditional owners. And at the beginning of a project, we sit down and discuss what we'd like to do and what they would like to get out of the research, and then they take us to some of the sites. But from there, we survey across often rugged parts of the landscape to find sites that have been previously undocumented.

PA: And so you come across these. At what point do you realize that these figures are a whole brand new discovery?

in northwest Arnhem Land, we began doing research in 2008. And we were looking for very recent paintings. And in the course of undertaking the survey and recording, we found these unusual figures that were much older. So we started documenting them as well. Then we got another grant to focus on them. And from 2016 onward, we've been searching for them throughout northwest Arnhem Land.

PA: And what was it that was unusual about them? They showed sort of unusual groups of humans and animals together was part of that, wasn't it?

PT: That's correct. So these are large, naturalistic paintings of humans and animals. Casely in outline form, but usually with lots of stroke infill. They're very distinctive and different from earlier rock paintings and more recent. And one of the things that's quite unusual is often there are scenes with animals and humans grouped together in a way that looks like there's some sort of ceremony or some sort of major story being told through the art.

PA: If you look at this picture, does it give us new insight into the lives of Aboriginal people at the time?

PT: It tells us that at this particular time when there was global warming, rising sea levels and loss of land and people were coming to grips with this change, they were trying to explain it. And some of the creation stories that still prominent today probably arose at that point. For instance, on one panel, there is a large human figure with a great big headdress reaching out to a large kangaroo on one side and a large bird on the other. In between the kangaroo and the human figure, is an animal-headed being that’s part human, part animal. It’s got a kangaroo head and a human body. It's almost like they're depicting a story of transformation from kangaroo to half-kangaroo, to half-human, to human. And that story is still very important today. And it's related to the creation of the landscape and of Aboriginal people themselves.

PA: And then I think there are also a couple of animals depicted that were seemingly at least out of place. What can you tell us about that?

PT: There's one amazing panel, and I couldn't believe it when we saw it right away. So those are bilbies. Now, bilbies aren't found in Arnhem Land and never have been. They're associated with a very arid environment. And the sound in Central Australia, the closest would be a couple hundred kilometres to the south of where these paintings are. They’re only on the one panel. So either the climate was different. And if they're as old as we think they are, it would've been a much more arid environment, and probably bilbies did exist. Or possibly, someone travelled, saw what have been strange creatures came back and painted them on the walls to tell about them.

PA: You talk about your reaction when you saw that. You've seen more of this kind of art than certainly anybody I've ever spoken with it. How rare is it? What's it like when you actually see that and see an image that kind of takes your breath away?

PT: Well, I've been working almost 40 years in various parts of the park in Arnhem Land as well, right across Southeast Asia, various parts of China, southern Africa and elsewhere. So I've seen an awful lot. But Arnhem Land is just amazing because of the diversity of styles and individual figures. And even after 40 years, I could go up tomorrow and see something I've never seen before. And when you do, you get a rush of adrenaline and you're awed and you think, wow, this is just amazing.

PA: As you say, I mean, you've spent decades, your entire professional career, documenting preserving Australia's Aboriginal rock art. Why is this so important to you?

PT: Well, actually, I'm originally from Ontario, Canada, [chuckling] but when I was growing up, I was fascinated by Australia. And I first came over here in 1981 and saw an incredible rock arts. Aboriginal elders told me stories about the paintings. And then afterwards, I read as much as I could, but hardly anything was published then. So I decided to do a PhD in Australia and have sort of devoted my career to it since. These paintings are a fundamental part of not only past Aboriginal culture, but contemporary culture. They're fundamental to wellbeing. And the Aboriginal people I work with don't say that they are an archeological artifact, but rather they're a part of contemporary culture. So that's why it's important to preserve them because if sites get damaged, then it has a huge impact on individuals and the community as a whole.

PA: Well, it's fascinating stuff. We sure appreciate you telling us about it today.

PT: Thank you very much.

CH: Paul Taçon is The Chair in Rock Art Research at Griffith University. We reached him in Queensland, Australia.

Nobel Prize

LOUISE GLUCK: My body, now that we will not be travelling together much longer, I begin to feel a new tenderness toward you. Very raw and unfamiliar. Like what I remember of love when I was young. Love that was often so foolish in its objectives, but never in its choices, its intensities. Too much demanded an advance, too much that could not be promised. My soul has been so fearful, so violent, forgive its brutality. As though it were that soul, my hand moves over you cautiously, not wishing to give offence, but eager finally to achieve expression as substance. It is not the earth I will miss. It is you I will miss.

[Clapping]

CH: American poet Louise Gluck, reading her poem "Crossroads". Today, Ms. Glück was awarded the 2020 Nobel Prize for Literature.

Cats eye study

CH: [slowly clapping] A slow clap is bad. Slow food? I'm gonna go with good. Slow TV: depends. A seven-hour train ride is great. 24 hours of lectures on the Norwegian constitution, which actually aired on Norwegian TV in 2014: bad. But slow blinking — I'm not sure. I mean, it's obviously disconcerting to stare into someone's eyes while very slowing closing and opening your eyelids. But then again, I'm not a cat. New research published this week has determined that "slow-blink sequences" — which, quote, "typically involve a series of half-blinks followed by either a prolonged eye narrow or an eye closure", unquote — are, in essence, the way a cat smiles. And that cats respond positively to humans doing the same. Which is kind of a big deal for cat lovers suffering endless negging from a feline frenemy. Scientists aren't sure why cats do it, but the prevailing theory has to do with clearly distinguishing this kind of eye contact from an unblinking stare that says "I'm thinking about ripping your face off." Whatever the reason, it doesn't really matter. The point is, it work and that's something to celebrate. If the eyes are the window to the soul, then the eyelids are the blinds — or curtains. Or the, um — well, the point is, they don't get enough appreciation for all they can communicate in the blink of an eye.

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October 08, 2020 Episode Transcript

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