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The Current Transcript for October 6, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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VOICE: Even though this is a Stage 4 diagnosis, which to a lot of people read as you likely only have a couple of years left. He very much saw this as a bump in the road. He would get better and he woould go back to his life.

MATT GALLOWAY: When Dakshana Bascaramurty hired a wedding photographer, she wasn't expecting to find someone who had become a friend and welcome her into his world as he faced the end of his life. In 30 minutes, she's here to tell the powerful story of Layton Reid and the lessons she learned from him about dying and living. Also this morning, winter is coming and an escape to a warmer place is off the books for most of us.

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VOICE: For the past 26 years, in fact, we've gone to Florida, but unfortunately, this year for our own health, we've made a decision that we have to stay here.

MG: Not everyone though. In an hour, the dilemma facing Canadian snowbirds to flee to the sun in the midst of a pandemic or face a long winter here. And later, the race is on for a COVID vaccine, but increasingly, health experts are emphasizing the shot is only going to be a success if people actually take it. A look inside the fight against vaccine hesitancy in Canada. We begin though with a president reluctant to stay in hospital and his plea not to be afraid of COVID in the face of more than 210,000 American deaths. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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Donald Trump downplaying danger of COVID-19 is an insult, says doctor

Guests: Dr. Abraar Karan, Paul Hunter

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VOICE: I learned so much about coronavirus and one thing that's for certain, don't let it dominate you. Don't be afraid of it. You're going to beat it. We have the best medical equipment. We have the best medicines, all developed recently. I went, I didn't feel so good. And two days ago, I could have left two days ago. Two days ago I felt great, like better than 20 years ago.

MG: Shortly after leaving Walter Reed Hospital yesterday. U.S. President Donald Trump downplayed fears of the virus that brought him there.

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VOICE: I know there's a risk, there's a danger, but that's okay. And now I'm better and maybe I'm immune. I don't know. But don't let it dominate your lives. Get out there. Be careful. We have the best medicines in the world, and it all happened very shortly. And they're all getting approved and the vaccines are coming momentarily.

MG: Trump's reaction to his diagnosis is being greeted with cheers from his supporters, not so from many public health officials. Health experts are concerned about what Trump's messages might mean in a country where COVID-19 cases continue to rise and where the disease has already claimed more than 200,000 lives. Dr. Abraar Karan practises internal medicine at Brigham and Women's Hospital and the Harvard Medical School. Doctor, good morning.

ABRAAR KARAN: Good morning. How are you?

MG: I'm well. You have watched this video that Donald Trump recorded just after he returned to the White House. What did you make of what you saw?

ABRAAR KARAN: You know, I think that it's very problematic the way that the focus here is is really, again, not not focussing on what the average American needs to do. You know, the sort of basic tenet, such as wearing a mask, physical distancing, you know, avoiding crowds and closed door spaces. We need to make sure that as few people get this virus as possible. And instead our president is saying, you know, there is a risk, there is a danger, but that's OK. Maybe I'm immune. Don't let this dominate your lives. And the fear is that he is going to use his own medical case and leverage that to say that the virus isn't that serious or it isn't a big deal, or to just make it seem like all of these success, whatever success there has been, is because of what he's done rather than what public health experts have done in spite of him not really supporting our messages.

MG: So when he says don't be afraid of it in the face of what you have seen, I mean, again and in the hospital that you work in, in the community that you work in, how does that strike you?

ABRAAR KARAN: Yeah, I mean, you know, it's it's easy to say don't be afraid of it when when you're the president, the United States, you're getting the best medical care, you have immediate access to whatever you need. So many of the people that have died in this country are some of our most vulnerable frontline workers who don't have immediate access to medical care, who didn't even have PPE and yet had to still go out there and work in food processing plants, in jails and factories and restaurants. And so I say, you know, if the president wants to say don't don't be afraid, then he should make sure that everybody has the protections they need, including paid leave from work if they can't be protected. And so I don't think a message like that is really helpful to so many people that don't have the precautions, the safety precautions that they need.

MG: President says in the wake of leaving the hospital, maybe I'm immune. What precautions do you think the president should be taking now? Could he still be contagious?

ABRAAR KARAN: He absolutely most likely is still contagious, especially with symptoms started on Thursday evening. Right. So the CDC says 10 days send of your symptoms are since the start of your symptoms. You need to be in isolation. And he certainly is still within that window. And so it's very unclear and disappointing to see him riding around in a car with other people who he's putting at risk and then coming to the White House and taking his mask off. I mean, it's it's really unclear. We were hoping that him you know, we all hope for his quick recovery. And we also hope that he would take this more seriously and be more responsible in the sort of behaviour that he displays coming out of the hospital. But, you know, what we're seeing right now is really alarming a lot of ways.

MG: He was touting all the new medicines for treating COVID-19 that he says have been developed recently. He said that a vaccine, in his words, is coming momentarily. How much progress has been made in treating COVID-19 since his pandemic?

ABRAAR KARAN: There certainly has been progress. So there's there's, you know, a few randomised control trials that have actually helped us. One of them was for the antiviral drug Remdesivir, or the other was for the steroid dexamethasone. With Remdesivir we saw shorter hospital stays with dexamethasone. We actually did see a reduction in mortality. And this was these reverse specific patient populations that required oxygen or required higher levels of care, including ventilators. So we have seen progress. But again, I wouldn't say that this is all because of the Trump administration. This is because of the collaboration of so many all around the world who have put in so much hard work, a lot of medical doctors and others. And, you know, these these medicines have been around before. But we've shown that they can help with COVID.

MG: How and you've hinted at this, but how did his treatment plan, at least what we know that's been released by his doctors and there's great questions around, you know, what we know and what we don't know and how true that is. But based on what we do know, how does that compare to what the average COVID patient in the United States might get in hospital?

ABRAAR KARAN: Yes, I'd say that, you know, if if you're on oxygen at this point in the pandemic, the average patient should get from death severe infection. That's a zone. Dexamethasone is widely available and Vestavia is becoming more widely available. But maybe in some hospitals you may not be able to get it immediately. And then the Regeneron is monoclonal. Antibody therapy is not something that you would traditionally be giving to patients. You know, the data there is a little bit less sure.

MG: That's this ice cocktail that he received early on in his treatment?

ABRAAR KARAN: Exactly. What I what I had seen and read is that he gave this to him as a precautionary measure, but it did a lot of us. It was really unclear. And it actually made us question how sick he actually was, because unless you're part of a clinical trial, you wouldn't be getting a drug like that unless you were so ill that they felt you needed it. But, you know, in the case of the president, all bets are off. And we see this a lot with patients who are sort of, quote, VIP, where they may direct more of their medical care than an average patient would.

MG: His doctor said that he's not out of the woods yet. I mean, obviously, you're not treating him, but knowing what you've just described, should he still be in hospital? Should he be out of the hospital?

ABRAAR KARAN: He needs to, I would I would have kept him in the hospital or at least kept him in a place where he can be monitored to the equivalent level of the hospital for multiple reasons. So, one, he should not be walking around and possibly exposing others when he is contagious, too. We know that with covered nineteen, there is a sort of during your second week of illness, people either get much better or they can actually get much worse. And actually, that's where we worry that the immune response is kind of on overdrive. And so a lot of us in the medical community are really watching this week to see how he does.

MG: What do you make of how this has been managed? There is a growing list of people in his inner circle and people who are around him, people who cover him, who have now tested positive. And so the White House. What we're learning through sources is that apparently there isn't contract tracing that's being done by the White House. What do you make of how this is being handled?

ABRAAR KARAN: It's definitely frustrating. You know, on the one hand, this seemed and felt very preventable. You know, many of us have been saying for so many months that you should not be having close indoor events. You need to be wearing masks. If you do have those. And yet we saw all of those things happen last week and now we have a super spreading event. And, you know, while testing and regular testing is critical. That is one layer of the strategy. And, you know, you can have false negative tests. You can have people that tested negative in the morning, but their viral load is still growing and they could still ask someone later in the day. It's unclear in the administration if everybody was receiving testing daily, but it seems like some people were not. And now with with them saying they're not going to be doing contact tracing extensively, it really makes us wonder why. Why don't they want to contact us? Why don't they want to be public about the the the outbreak and what happened? And, you know, with the political atmosphere that went right now, really makes you wonder if there's something there that they wouldn't want to become extremely public. But again, I do want to speculate.

MG: Let me go back to the language that he used in saying, don't be afraid of this. Don't let it dominate your life. There are people who are very worried that his release from the hospital could be assigned to others, that there's little to fear from COVID-19.Look at me. I survived this and maybe I'm immune and you two will survive this. In the time that you're in right now with more than 210,000 people dead in your country, what are you most concerned about?

ABRAAR KARAN: I'm most concerned about people letting up their guard, you know, letting up their guard as we head into the winter where we're going to be indoors more especially in cold areas like where I live up in the northeast, where we're going to have no choice but to crowd indoors, especially for central businesses that are going to need to continue. I'm afraid that people may take the president's case and and try to apply it to themselves. And that's a mistake because most people in this country are not going to get the attention and access to anything that the president is going to have access to. And beyond that, one case is one case. So regardless of what happens to the president, whether he gets completely better, whether he has extreme poor outcome, which absolutely we hope that doesn't happen, that does not mean that that's what's going to happen to you, an average American or anyone else, because one case is one case. We can't let that generalize for the rest of the country.

MG: What would you want to hear from him?

ABRAAR KARAN: I want him to come out and say that COVID-19 is serious, that it is it can be a life threatening disease that so many have died. And we need to work together as a country to prevent any more infections. And we need to do that through the fundamental principles of Mafeking, physical distancing, avoiding crowds, avoiding close contact, avoiding enclosed spaces for prolonged periods of time. And I want him to focus on preventing our most vulnerable frontline workers. These are things that other world leaders have done and we really want to see our president do the same.

MG: Do you expect to see that and hear that?

ABRAAR KARAN: I again, I can't really speculate, and like many of us said, you know, we don't know how this experience will have changed him and his perspective. I will say he said the word coded it. You know, he said the word coronavirus instead of calling it China virus. So at least I've noticed that's an improvement, but, you know, this next day, next few days, we'll really have to see what he does.

MG: Dr. Karan it's good to speak with you. I appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.

ABRAAR KARAN: Thanks so much. Take care.

MG: And you. Dr. Abraar Karan practises internal medicine at Brigham and Women's Hospital and Harvard Medical School. There is an election in 27 days in the United States, of course. And so for a look at how this is playing out politically, I'm joined by the CBC's Paul Hunter. He's in Washington. Paul, good morning.

PAUL HUNTER: Hey Matt.

MG: When the president left Walter Reed Hospital yesterday, he gave a thumbs up to reporters, said thank you. Then did this run up the stairs and thumbs up again from the balcony at the White House. How are his supporters reacting to his release?

PAUL HUNTER: Well, those who turned out every day that he was at Walter Reed Hospital to wave, you know, Trump 20, 20 flags and wear the megahertz cheered. You know, I've got to say that the degree of support from those who backed Donald Trump, you know, on this. And broadly is, you know, singularly one of the most baffling questions in the current political landscape down here. It's. It's sort of hard to explain. I mean, we were in Arizona last week doing a documentary that because of the positive test for Donald Trump, may now not ever see aired because everything changed at the end of the week. But nonetheless, I talked to a lot of Trump supporters about coded, you know, before and after his positive test. And, you know, they are 1000 percent behind you. I mean, they truly and this is consistent, I believe that, you know, the big media is fake news, that the wall will solve all of America's immigration problems and that, you know, that covered is a hoax and that Trump can beat it. It's it's it's bizarre agree to which they believe in Donald Trump and so when he missed bumps, that is his message to them that I'm right. I mean, that I beat this thing. I told you it wasn't a big deal. Look at me. And by the way, we've got an election campaign going on.

MG: I was gonna say with the language I mentioned this with the doctor, the language that he uses and saying don't let it dominate you. And saying in his video, I stood out front and I led, that is a message directly to those folks that you're talking about?

PAUL HUNTER: Matt, I cannot overstate the degree to which, you know, Trump supporters. Trump Nation, the hard core, that's 40 percent of Americans who stand by him no matter what the degree to which they love that, you know, and the degree to which I'll tell you something else. You step outside outside the proverbial beltway in Washington or outside the big media centres of New York or or Los Angeles. And you talk to people who wear MAGA hats. And it's almost as if they they give you back talking points. They just run down the list of things that Trump talks about. And furthermore, they do not care about everything that these so-called liberal media elite in New York or wherever puts in their headlines trump taxes that paid 750 dollars in 2016, those kinds of things. Not even on that, yeah, I've heard about that. Yeah, you know good on him for doing what he can to reduce taxes. I'd do that if I was in his. But they don't. They don't, you know somebody came up to me, we went to a bar, a watch party on debate night in Phoenix. And we were nervous about going inside because nobody inside was wearing masks. And there were a couple of hundred people in there watching on the big screen. We did go inside. We had in 95 masks on, we only stayed for a few minutes and when we wanted to interview somebody, we pulled them out onto the sidewalk. So we took our precautions to make ourselves feel comfortable. But the woman we pulled out who'd organised the watch party, serious, hardcore Trump supporter, told us she begins to sing. Her I say, you know, I'm not in the cult of Donald Trump, but, man, he's the greatest thing ever. I mean, and when he pumps his fist on the steps of the White House or on the steps of Walter Reed Hospital, you can feel Trump Nation just going right on.

MG: What about the people around him? We're hearing from White House staff with the butler concerns around, you know, the health of the butlers and the aides that are there and the Secret Service, the people who are there to protect him, who apparently are concerned as well. What do we know about whether staff around him feel safe?

PAUL HUNTER: Well, other than, you know, hearing about, you know, former people who are a little more willing to speak out, because that's the challenge with the White House right now, is that no one wants to say anything that might upset Donald Trump. And so you hear things from, you know, former Secret Service agents about how crazed an idea that was to get out in that SUV and drive outside simply for a for a wave at at at his supporters. Not you know, it's not leaps and bounds from walking across that parked way at the bottom in front of the church when those Black Lives Matter protests were going on. But we don't really know. You know, I mean, Kelly McCann, any his press secretary tested positive yesterday. You know, she's on the news last night on Fox News saying she's asymptomatic, everything's good and she's glad the president's home. It's it's if you are not the feed, the the presumption is that anybody working in Trump's certainly in his inner circle and in the White House sort of writ large, cannot step out of line or else you're gone. And so you don't know what to believe when anybody says even to the degree of how nervous they are about working in a place where there seems to be this fast spreading coded right now. You know, I mean, so the White House is today effectively on a kind of lockdown, right. Reporters are working from home. They're no longer in their little offices behind that Brady briefing room there. President Trump is in the mansion part of the White House, not in the West Wing, not in the Oval Office. So you've got all on the one hand, you've got, you know, this weird scene where COVID-19 has has effectively emptied the place. But at the same time, you're saying, well, we're glad he's home. You know, he's being treated as being watched carefully. Everything's, you know, a milk and honey. It's a bizarre circumstance.

MG: Just 90 seconds or so left before we have to let you go. 27 days until this election, which team do you think is feeling most confident right now, given what's displayed out?

PAUL HUNTER: One thousand percent, Team Biden. He had a bump in the polls after the debate and before the test. Biden has been, if not comfortably ahead in the polls, steadily ahead in the polls for a long time. All of a sudden, Biden looks all right. There are a lot of talk about all the Trump supporters I've talked with. I've also talked with a lot of Republicans who are not quite so hardcore, who are uncomfortable, who are embarrassed, who are, you know, unhappy with the Trump presidency and who, you know, I can park, you know, Uncle Joe's all right. Who are willing to go democratic this time to end the Trump presidency. So there is no doubt in my mind that Team Biden is feeling very comfortable right now. We're very close to the election. He has a lead not only nationally, but in some of the key sort of so-called battleground states in Florida and Pennsylvania, for example. That said, I'm the guy who was in, you know, Trump headquarters on election night in 2016 and early that evening saying you know to Peter Mansbridge, you know, these numbers are, it's early yet. You know, don't, you know, he'd have really have to thread the needle to do this and then we all know what happened. And so, you know, there are many lessons from 2016.

MG: Stay tuned.

PAUL HUNTER: One of them is that voting matters. The other one is punditry doesn't matter. And predictions in the age of Trump are effectively meaningless, but I think Team Biden is feeling pretty good right now.

MG: We'll leave it there. Paul, thank you.

PAUL HUNTER: Pleasure.

MG: Paul Hunter, the CBC's senior Washington correspondent. He was in Washington, D.C. cBC News is next. And then the story of how an author helped a dying man preserve his life story. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current. Stay with us.

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What a dying young father taught a Toronto reporter about grappling with loss in her own life

Guests: Dakshana Bascaramurty, Candace Weaver

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, why some people aren't sure they'll roll up their sleeves for the COVID vaccine, or at least not right away and how one doctor is trying to ease their worries and get them to change their minds. But first, leaving a legacy.

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MG: It is only when we truly know and understand that we have a limited time on Earth and that we have no way of knowing when our time is up, that we will begin to live each day to the fullest, as if it was the only one we had. Those are the words of the psychiatrist Elisabeth Kubler-Ross, and they're from her book On Death and Dying. Written 51 years ago, that book talks about how to treat those who are dying and what we could learn from them. Now a new Canadian book dives into the subject of living and dying through the story of a young man coming to terms with a terminal diagnosis and determined to leave behind a legacy for his infant son. The book is This is Not The End of Me: Lessons on Living from a Dying Man. The book's author is Globe and Mail reporter, Dakshana Bascaramurty. Dakshana, good morning.

DAKSHANA BASCARAMURTY: Good morning, Matt.

MG: This all starts with you and a wedding photographer. How did you meet Layton Reid?

DAKSHANA BASCARAMURTY: So I think most people hire wedding photographers. They get their pictures back and they never speak to them again. But Layton is like no other wedding photographer. And I knew even before meeting him that we would have a lot in common. He had a very cheeky sense of humour that came through in his photos and the day that we spent together when he was shooting my wedding, I actually spent more time with him than I spent with my husband because I had a small wedding party, he was staring me all over the city, and we just had this instant bond. And it was kind of heartbreaking when I went back to my life in Toronto and he went back to his life in Halifax, which is where I'd gotten married. And then a year later, he sent an email to me and mentioned that he had this Stage 4 melanoma diagnosis.

MG: He goes to a clinic and has a mole on his back, looked at and it turns out that the mole is cancerous. It's melanoma. And then he discloses this to you. Are you surprised that he sent you this note saying that he'd been diagnosed with cancer?

DAKSHANA BASCARAMURTY: I'm very surprised because even in the note, he had been shown that this was something she didn't want a lot of people to know about. He had sent a note to me and a couple of other former clients. And the thing was, even though this is a stage for diagnosis, which to a lot of people reads as you likely only have a couple of years left. He very much saw this as a bump in the road. He would get treatment. He would get better. And he would go back to his life. And so he had messaged a group of us to say, hey, I'm going to be taking a break from this wedding photography thing for a little while. And I was just wondering, might you be interested in putting a review of my work up online because it'll keep the business on ice until I can get back into it. And then after I replied and I had a lot of questions for him and I wanted to talk about all of these life changes, we started this unexpected friendship and kind of journalist source relationship where I decided that there was a really interesting story here and I wanted to tell it.

MG: In telling that story, you fly it to Halifax and you essentially embed yourself with the family. You're there with Layton, you're there with Candace, his wife. What was that first meeting like with Candace?

DAKSHANA BASCARAMURTY: It was absolutely terrifying because I'm I'm used to doing this job where, you know, I thought I may meet someone. Maybe I spend an hour or two with them. I write a story and then that's that. But I knew this was going to be a long term project. And even before I flew out to Halifax, I spent several hours on Skype with Layton and we'd exchange tons of emails. Candace didn't know who I was really showing, knew who I was through Layton. And I was gonna be this intruder in their space. They had a newborn for a couple of days. So I worried that she might see me as an unwelcome guest. And I was so surprised and relieved that that wasn't the case. She was as welcoming as Layton and other members of his family were.

MG: Candace as been listening to the conversation, and it's probably a pretty good time to bring her into this. Candace, good morning to you.

CANDACE WEAVER: Good morning.

MG: This is a really difficult time in your life when Dakshana arrives. What did you think when Layton told you that the Globe and Mail writer was going to show up, write about his illness and what your entire family was going through?

CANDACE WEAVER: I didn't really know what to think. To be honest, I thought, okay, you know, he obviously asked if I was up for it. And he spoke so highly of Dakshana and I knew that they had formed, you know, a friendship since he had shot her wedding. So I just kind of let him, you know, make the decision there and said, you know, trusted in him and Dakshana that, if that's what he wanted to do and that they wanted to pursue, I was along for the ride.

MG: Did you think that there's something something positive that could come out of this?

CANDACE WEAVER: Yeah, absolutely. I actually been thinking about that a lot since the book's come out and even before, obviously, when I've been talking to Dakshana And, you know, I think originally Layton had hoped, well, although he didn't know it was going to be a book, they were talking about it perhaps being an article or, you know, not kind of knowing exactly which way it was going to go. But Layton had hoped that it would leave a legacy for Finn, for something that he could read down the road and get to know his dad a little bit better and how he felt about him, how much he loved him. And that was obviously important for me as well, because Finn was only three years old when Layton passed away. But since that time, you know, I've realized in reading the book, you know, I've really I think there's a lot of positive to come out of it. I mean, you know how Layton viewed the world. And I was just curious and sort of laid back, I guess, and didn't take things too seriously or himself too seriously, but also hopefully to give some hope to people who are going through a similar situation in that, you know, we tried to live as much as we could in the moment and enjoyed the little pleasures that we could have, you know, along the way, depending on how he was doing. And then, you know, even after the fact, kind of hopefully seeing that it's finished, I've kind of moved forward a bit and that we're doing well, obviously, with fond memories of Leighton and we miss him, but that you can kind of get through a tragic life event like that and come out on the other side and still be OK.

MG: One of the most revealing parts of this book, it's really powerful, is the descriptions of your role as a caregiver. He takes this path where he's doing, I guess you can call it an alternative treatment and it involves you making these juices. For him, it seems like all day long in the midst of trying to be involved in his care and the care of Finn, who's a newborn at the time. What was your role like as a caregiver? How would you describe the times that you were in?

CANDACE WEAVER: I think initially, you know, when he got the diagnosis, my role was sort of a support. He he focussed a lot on kind of keeping his head in the right mindset. And for him, that was all about getting well, again, for him and for forfend mostly. You know, if he wasn't going to be well or recover fully, that he would have the most time possible with then. So that was a big focus of my role, was to help him kind of stay positive and stay in this mindset that the treatment was going to work. But also it was kind of the day to day gruelling routine that we did the natural therapy of making juice every hour. And part of that routine was that Layton was forced to rest as his body did it to try to recover through all of this. So it was our kind of motto was to just get through the day. You know, it was 12 juices. It was five coffee animals for Layton. It was a ton of supplements and medical appointments to keep straight. And we just kind of had to put our heads down and really do the work right. And I think part of that, because our minds were kept busy and physically we're kept busy as well. It helped us to cope day to day as well. Just because you're so busy and tired and, you know, taking care often as well. Our days were awful.

MG: Dakshana, in the book you write about that period the tandas was eroding. Why did you use that word eroding?

DAKSHANA BASCARAMURTY: So Candace was as I thought living these sort of two existences and when she was in the house, which is where she was most of the time, I'm through that period, she was doing all of this work for Layton, she was doing all this work for Finn. And I just saw her putting a lot of her own wants and needs aside. And I don't even know that she fully realized that she was doing this. But there were only a few escapes for her and, you know, one of the things that moved me the most that she told me about during that first visit was how her car kind of became this refuge for her. There were, you know, a few escapes she could make from the house and kind of from the tragedy she was in the middle of which was was just, you know, taking a drive with Finn in the car and it would be her private time to kind of grieve this life, but that she wasn't, you know, maybe going to have with Layton anymore to to have these moments of kind of panic and fear and to call her mom and tell her all of this, because when she was in that house, I could see how she had to be pulled together. She had to be strong and she had to be the source of energy for Layton to kind of keep this therapy going, to keep everyone, you know, in the game.

MG: Candace, did you feel like you were eroding at that time?

CANDACE WEAVER: I don't think in the moment necessarily, I was pretty focused on taking care of Layton and Finn and what needed to get done. I think after the fact they definitely looking back on it can see and agree with what Dakshana's saying, that you really put yourself, as I'm sure many caregivers do as well. You put yourself in your needs and emotions and everything on the backburner and you just kind of are in this mode of okay this is what this person, you know, this is what Layton needs. This is what Finn needs. And beyond that, there wasn't really much time left at the end of the day. And, you know, I was okay with that. Obviously wanted to be there for Layton and for Finn. And just thought, you know, I'll take some time when I can or, you know, whenever that may be.

MG: As his illness progresses, Layton begins to to work on what he calls a Finn box. What was that, Candace?

CANDACE WEAVER: So he was compiling a bunch of things to put in this box, a wooden box for Finn to have when he's older. So things that he wanted either, you know, like memories for fish or some of that is like photo albums that he'd made of then pictures that he had taken of Finn when he was young or just little things that he found interesting. Like a little music box, just kind of some little things that he liked. And he worked on that for a long time. And actually there, you know, by the end of, you know, his treatment and kind of as he sort of started to decline, he put together so much stuff that there's actually a backpack now, too, that goes with it. So there's a box and a backpack to kind of give him things and letters for when I see fit or when Finn kind of needs it or wants it.

MG: What was it like for you watching him obsessed with putting things together? Knowing the. I can't imagine being in that situation where, you know, that time is limited and you're trying to leave some sort of legacy, a physical legacy for your young child. What was it like for you watching him do that?

CANDACE WEAVER: It was heartbreaking, I mean, to know to put myself in issues and know that because Finn was so young, he probably wouldn't have a lot of memories of his own, that he would just have memories from photos or that people had told him about his dad. So my heart broke and I didn't you know, I tried to be as supportive as I could and just help them think of different ideas, of things that maybe if I would spend things that I would want in the future. But it also gave Layton somewhere to put his energy, and I think it helped him get through the days, the tough days, particularly as it gave him a sense of control to know, OK, I'm not going to be here, but I do still have some control of how my son is going to see me and view me, remember me when he's older.

MG: What about for you, Dakshana? What did it tell you when Layton was was obsessing so much over this box and trying to to fill you in what turns into a box in a backpack and more with memories for his son.

DAKSHANA BASCARAMURTY: I think I had the same views as Candace. Like it was kind of heartbreaking to watch because. Layton. I think in the back of his mind you, that there is no way that he could ever assemble this perfect collection of objects that would, you know, satisfy him or satisfy Finn. And as, you know, time went on, you know, he was constantly swapping things out of this box and, you know, it then expanded into into another vessel.

MG: Candace, what did Finn mean to him at this time? There's a line in the book that says he says, I have one of my best friends in my corner, one who couldn't care less about my friends in the attic. By my friends in the attic, he's talking about the tumours that that had moved into his brain. What did you what did Finn mean to him?

CANDACE WEAVER: Finn was everything to him. I mean, everything he did was for Finn. You know, his all of his treatment was gruelling. And I don't know how he managed to get through it, but he did. He was the strongest person, I think, that I've ever known. And Finn was his motivation, like he he had mentioned in some of the writings he he put up on social media, you know, like he's his motivation. He he was what he got up for in the day, you know. And the reason that he did everything that he did and thought, I think as hard as he did to get well, is he just wanted to be there so desperately for Finn.

MG: One of the themes that runs through this book, Dakshana, is how reluctant people are when it comes to talking about dying or acknowledging a person's illness and how we end up talking about people with cancer. We say that they're heroes. We'll call them survivors. Why is it so difficult, do you think and what did you learn in the process of hearing the story and telling the story about why it's so difficult for us to be open when it comes to talking about death and dying?

DAKSHANA BASCARAMURTY: I think we're all just so uneasy around talking about these subjects because we don't know what the person who's in this situation actually wants. I feel like there are these scripts and Layton made this clear to me. You know, sometimes when very well-meaning people would connect with him, maybe it was people that he hadn't talked to in a couple of years or even some close friends, they would be very well-meaning and they would be trying to say the right thing. And then he would find himself in the strange position of having to comfort them because it made them uncomfortable that he was alive now. But he might not be. And, you know, the next time that they wanted to talk to him. So it was there was always a sense, I think, that he got from people of, you know, this might be the last conversation we have. And so let me say the things that you're supposed to say to somebody who's dying. Let me unload some of my innermost fears if I was in the same position as you on to you. And I didn't expect this, but being in this position of of being a journalist as well as Layton's friend, I found myself shutting up a lot. And I think that that, you know, I did I just because that's what you're supposed to do. So so listen. But I found that that was actually something that made me a better friend to Layton, because he also just wanted to talk. And he just wanted to share what was happening with him without having to manage anybody else's feelings.

MG: I think it's fair to say, Candace, that even Layton himself had a difficult time, as we all would in accepting his own death. What changes did you see in him when he finally did get to that point of accepting that?

CANDACE WEAVER: It was almost like I feel like a relaxation and a little bit like he was calmer and more at peace and, you know. He was a joke around about it sometimes, but mostly I think just sort of try to enjoy the moments that we had. You know, even if it was just sitting outside and, you know, enjoying some warmth in the sun, you know, just something as simple as that. What was interesting was that throughout his whole life, all he wanted to do was travel, travel, travel, travel. It's always where am I going next? What am I going to see? He just loved travelling. And it wasn't the kind of travelling that most people would like in terms of, you know, a five star resort or anything like that. It was the complete opposite of that. You know, he liked to kind of backtrack and, you know, be really immersed within the culture and the communities in that. But as his you know, his time here came to an end. You know, all he said was, I just want to be home. He didn't want to go anywhere anymore. He didn't want, even if he could have he didn't want to travel anymore. He just wanted to be home and spend as much time here with the people that he loved. And, you know, he loved our house and just being, you know, outside. It was those, it was the small things at that point.

MG: What did that tell you about how we as a society could be better at dealing with helping those who are in that position? Because, again, he even fantasised about not telling other people because, as he said, cancer wasn't the hard part to deal with. It was everybody else that was really difficult. So what could we, knowing what you know, based on what you've gone through and what your family's gone through, what could we do differently when it comes to helping those who find themselves in this situation that Layton did?

CANDACE WEAVER: I think, you know, really listening and not being afraid to hear what the person says and letting them take the lead on, you know, how they choose. Like, for example, if somebody is choosing maybe not to undergo a treatment as a family member, you know, or the loved one of this person, that would be a difficult thing to hear. But I think just listening and accepting and just letting them have their own journey and supporting them as best as they can in the way that they want to be supported.

MG: We were talking about the box that he assembled for Finn. And in the book, Dakshana, you write that he was concerned that maybe he was spending too much time building the box and not enough time perhaps focusing on Candace. After Layton died, Candace, things began to arrive in the mail. What was coming in?

CANDACE WEAVER: It was little card once a month for the for the first year after he passed away and it was the quote and it had a picture in it. So it was these little cute little quotes, just to kind of, I think, support me in that year after, you know, recognizing that he felt that would be the hardest time.

MG: What did that do for you?

CANDACE WEAVER: It's you know, it definitely gave me the courage to, you know, move on to feel like he was still there, but to kind of power through, you know, my feelings and, you know, I think grief is an interesting emotion and reaction to that you can have. Sometimes I can just want to stay in and not put myself out there and not experience new things and be around people, but I think it just kind of gave me the courage to do that.

MG: And you've done that. You've moved through this and you just got married again?

CANDACE WEAVER: Yes. Yes, I did.

MG: Congratulations.

CANDACE WEAVER: Thank you. Thanks.

MG: Dakshana, this book is dedicated to your father. Tell me why you made that dedication.

DAKSHANA BASCARAMURTY: So in the midst of reporting this, my own dad got very sick and I saw this very rapid decline in him. You know, while I was writing about about Layton's own decline and, you know, my dad had been palliative for a couple of years, but he he got infected with COVID and he died in April.

MG: I'm so sorry.

DAKSHANA BASCARAMURTY: Thank you. And, you know, writing about these last years of Layton's life and helped me in this very unexpected way with coping with, you know, all of the grief that came with losing my dad. And I say grief and I'm talking about the time even before he died, because, you know, like with Layton, there's there's a lot of mourning that happens when someone is sick before before they leave the earth. And I really do believe that the last stretch of my dad's life, I chose to spend that time with him in a way that was informed by, you know, seeing what Layton, you know, had taught me about how we should behave around people who are dying.

MG: Candace, we spent a lot of time talking about Finn, in part because Layton dedicated so much of his energy toward the end of his life and in creating those memories for Finn. Finn's now, what, seven years old?

CANDACE WEAVER: He is.

MG: When you look at him. How does he bring Layton through what he does and how he looks and how he acts?

CANDACE WEAVER: He's long and lean and looks just like his dad. At our wedding, my wedding a week and a half ago, Finn had a camera. And as you know, Layton was a wedding photographer, which Finn sort of remembers but doesn't, you know, know too much about that. But anyway, we had given him this camera in case he wanted to take pictures. He does show an interest in that. And he, it was funny to watch him, it was exactly like his dad. He kind of stood right in front of us and just waited and waited. You know, most kids you can imagine would probably be clicking off 100 pictures. Right? But he just waited for that perfect shot. And that's exactly how his dad used to take photos is he would wait with the camera and so, you know, the moment that he was looking for and then take the photo. It just, you know, I think it really brought tears to everyone's eyes who picked up on it.

MG: It's really generous of you to I mean, even at the very beginning of this, to be involved in a story like this, in a moments that you are in to open yourself up like this. And I think there are real lessons for a lot of us in terms of how we should approach living and death as well, Candace. Thank you for doing that.

CANDACE WEAVER: Thank you.

MG: And Dakshana, it's a great story. Well done.

DAKSHANA BASCARAMURTY: Thank you so much.

MG: Dakshana Bascaramurty is a national reporter for the Globe and Mail and the author of This is Not The End of Me: Lessons on Living from a Dying Man. She's in Toronto. And Candace Weaver is Layton Reid's widow. She was in Halifax. Well, coming up after your regional update, what to do about the fact that some people are uneasy about taking a potential COVID-19 vaccine, tackling vaccine hesitancy in Canada. It's coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

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Vaccination should be seen as 'next step in the arsenal' against COVID-19, says doctor

Guests: Cora Constantinescu

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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VOICE: Widespread vaccine uptake is the best shot Canadians have regaining some of what we've lost and returning to things we cherish.

MG: Widespread vaccine uptake. That is what Canada's Chief Medical Officer, Dr. Theresa Tam, would like to see when a COVID vaccine becomes available. Might be a tough sell though. A survey by Angus Reid last week shows just 39 percent of respondents would get a vaccine if available. That's down from 46 percent back in July. So we went out to ask people why they might be changing the minds.

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VOICE 1: I would not get the vaccine if it was available right now, I would probably wait several years before considering it. When they moved too quickly, they don't necessarily know what the long term ramifications about it are.

VOICE 2: Well, my feelings, especially coming from a country like Pakistan, a country which is still suffering from diseases such as polio. I can tell and I can vouch for the fact that vaccines are critical. If a vaccine does come out in Canada, given that the information about the trials and everything is transparent to the public, I would definitely be willing to get myself vaccined.

VOICE 3: I would really feel not secure enough for having my kids to take it and stuff like that. Just it's too fast. It's too quick.

VOICE 4: I think it would be a good idea if we all take it. I know most people wouldn't. I would as long as they got it right.

MG: Dr. Cora Constantinescu has spent a lot of time hearing concerns like those. She is a paediatric infectious disease doctor who works at the Vaccine Hesitancy Clinic in Calgary. It's run out of the Alberta Children's Hospital. Doctor, good morning.

CORA CONSTANTINESCU: Good morning.

MG: It's interesting in hearing people in Toronto talk about their concerns around a COVID-19 vaccine. Are those concerns common in terms of what you hear?

CORA CONSTANTINESCU: I would say so, Matt. I think that is a lot of what people are talking about in terms of COVID vaccine, for sure.

MG: What do you hear specifically from your patients who might be resistant to vaccines?

CORA CONSTANTINESCU: You know, I think at the heart of every vaccine-hesitant patient is somebody working really hard to make the best decision they can to protect themselves or their child. And people battle fears and insecurity, a lot of misinformation, and sometimes a lack of trust. So we do hear concerns about safety, which are often the most common ones. And as you heard with the gentleman speaking about his experience in Pakistan, they talk about this perceived risk of disease, whether this is something that they're at risk. So you could hear how he talks about polio because he had seen polio, and he was perceived that to be a risk and therefore his sense of this vaccine preventable disease was different. So I think safety is always a big concern, and this perceived risk of disease. What we've noticed a bit with COVID, and I think with other vaccines as well, is this idea of exceptionalism, that somehow I'm exceptional, I'm different, I may not be at the same risk as everybody else in my age group about the disease. But the same exceptionism applies to this risk of vaccine and toward events. So somehow I'm exceptional and not going to get a disease. But I might be exceptional enough to get some untoward event coming from the vaccine itself. And that's for sure interesting with a COVID vaccine, because well as we know that age is a concern for COVID disease, some studies had indicated that even people in their 70s who are in good health may not perceive age as a risk for COVID and therefore may not get the vaccine.

MG: Can you just briefly give a snapshot as to who the people are who come to see you — people who we're characterizing as vaccine hesitant because there's the phrase anti-vaxxers gets thrown around a lot. Are these people people who who are opposed to all vaccines? Who are they?

CORA CONSTANTINESCU: It's a good question. I think there's a very clear difference between the vaccine hesitant and the anti vaccine people or the anti-vaccine advocates. The people who are vaccine hesitant are anywhere between 15 to 30 per cent of Canadians, and they tend to come from all walks of life. They're pretty educated about their own health. And they are defined as people who may not take vaccines despite their availability. So often these are people who have not immunized their children at all, or who have immunized and have concerns or have partially immunized their kids in our clinic. What I say for sure is that these are pretty motivated people and it takes a lot of bravery and courage to face this fear that a lot of people have lived with for a long time and to come in and have a conversation about it.

MG: How do you talk to them without dismissing those concerns and those fears?

CORA CONSTANTINESCU: Well, I think that if you just put your finger on it. So as I said before, you know, these are people who are battling a lot of fears and lack of trust. So we spend a lot of time building rapport and trust with them. We listen. We find out about this child and their family. We personalize their concerns about that. So we make, work very hard at not making this some kind of philosophical debate. We keep the conversation very tailored to the child, the schedule tailored to the child and approach to them. And I think it works well because, at the end of the day, everybody is for the same goal. They just want to be protected and have the best health. So we realize that, and we pair up with a parent and support them as they're making this decision to vaccinate.

MG: Are you surprised, when you take a look at those Angus Reid numbers about a lowered percentage of people who would get this vaccine right away? Does that surprise you at all?

CORA CONSTANTINESCU: I think, you know, my hope is that every Canadian will have the opportunity of having the COVID vaccine and therefore have to make this decision. So I'm not surprised, but maybe a little bit disappointed because of what this global pandemic has meant to all of us. But I am not really surprised. But in some ways I think it's good that here we are, you and I, talking about vaccine hesitancy, about a vaccines that hasn't even been licenced yet. And if people are thinking about this, and I think it's good for each and every one of us, because we will have to make this decision, to reflect on our own feelings around the COVID vaccine or check our hesitancy around it. So I'm not really surprised. And maybe it's a good thing that people are already thinking about this and already thinking of how they would approach it.

MG: We talk about the need for a vaccine, in part, because the idea of herd immunity is not something that we're going to get to anytime soon. You speak about something called herd influence. What is that?

CORA CONSTANTINESCU: So I think the best vaccine is only as good as its uptake. And you could have a very effective vaccine, but if people don't take it, you're not going to reach that. And people talk about this idea of herd immunity, which is community protection. How much do we need? How much of the population do we need to immunize in order to have protection. But as we see now, we're not, we're not at that stage yet. But everybody is talking about this. So we talk about this, I talk about this idea of herd influence. So what now to two of them? Not... The level of population that we we need to influence and get onto the deciding towards a vaccine that that would would need to keep this movement for a vaccine uptake and vaccine acceptance moving forward and not backwards.

MG: So if somebody just in the last minute that we have if someone is feeling hesitant about this COVID-19 vaccine, they're concerned about the politicization of it, they're concerned about the speed at which it's being developed, what's your advice to them right now?

CORA CONSTANTINESCU: I would say we all need to think of all we have done for this pandemic. So many of us have — even the ones who haven't been infected or lost a sick one with COVID — we have done so much. People have changed their social lives, stay away from family and friends, reinvented themselves professionally, lost jobs, home-schooled their kids. We've done so much. And I think we need to think about the cost of this pandemic has been to each of us and to the Canadian society, and make the idea of vaccinating as just a next step in the arsenal of fighting this virus.

MG: It's really interesting to hear about the work that you're doing. And as this process continues, I hope we have the chance to talk again. In the meantime, Doctor, thank you.

CORA CONSTANTINESCU: I hope so, too. It was very nice of you to have me on the show. Thank you.

MG: Thank you very much. Dr. Cora Constaninescu is a paediatric infectious disease doctor who works at the Vaccine Hesitancy Clinic in Calgary.

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Canadians struggling with decision to travel to US for the winter

Guests: Tamara Carmichael, Rachel Leroux

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. It is fall and for some of us, that means folding up the beach blanket, covering up the patio furniture, rolling up the hammock with a tear, sort of rolling down your face. If you're a snowbird though, now is the time you usually pack up the car or hop on a plane headed south making for warmer weather. Well, things are different this year. Thousands of Canadians have struggled to make the choice of whether to brave winter here or face mounting U.S. COVID cases and the uncertainty of the U.S. election. Tamara Carmichael and her husband manage the Leduc Lions Campground, an RV park. It's in Leduc Alberta, just outside of Edmonton. They usually drive to Arizona every fall, but this year they are staying in Canada. Tamara, good morning.

TAMARA CARMICHAEL: Good morning.

MG: Why have you decided not to spend the winter in the beautiful Arizona desert, as usual?

TAMARA CARMICHAEL: Well, it's a closed border and a dangerous level of COVID, although in the area that we're in they are actually, they've closed their covert unit, but it's just not currently doable. It's not currently safe for us. And the government on both sides probably smart on our end has been to keep the border closed.

MG: That all seems fairly straightforward, but was it a difficult decision to make?

TAMARA CARMICHAEL: For us, it's a very difficult decision where in the usual position of not having an actual home here because we run a campground, we live onsite for seven months of the year. So our physical home, our trailer is sitting in Arizona. So when the campground closes next week, we're technically homeless.

MG: Where are you going to live in the winter then?

TAMARA CARMICHAEL: We are going to be in the park model that belongs to the Lions Club for as long as we think it's going to be okay. It's not designed to be a year round unit. So there are no buried waterlines. There are no, our sewer line is above ground here for us. So it's a matter of if we can get it to stay warm enough to stay in. If that doesn't work out, we will end up in our daughter's driveway in a family travel trailer in Mission.

MG: British Columbia?

TAMARA CARMICHAEL: Yeah.

MG: When was the last time you spent a winter in Canada?

TAMARA CARMICHAEL: Well I moved from Edmonton when I was in my 20s and I spent my winters in Victoria. So the last time I spent an Edmonton winter was when I was 25.

MG: An Edmonton winter is a special kind of winter.

TAMARA CARMICHAEL: It's a much different than a Victoria winter.

MG: The driveway, tell me more about that. You just end up parked kind of in whatever space you could find in Mission?

TAMARA CARMICHAEL: Yes, so literally, it would be in their driveway because we found that when we came back, we were part of the group that came just after the border closed. We did our 14 days and then we opened up our park early for other people doing their 14 days coming across. By the time the end of April hit, pretty much every year round camp site for long term people in B.C. had already been booked. So the long term camping got eaten up and a number of the people that we've had here have either sold their units and bought a condo or have moved into an apartment style motel here for the winter. In our case, there is no not a chance to get a proper place to put in a trailer. And then our trailer is in Arizona, so we would be in literally a small family travel trailer. If you've ever lived in for a long period, time isn't easy.

MG: I was going to say there's not a lot of space there. And in the cold winter, you know, you might be looking for a bit more room. We've heard from people who, to your point, have been trying to figure out where to go and have been filling up those campgrounds in British Columbia. Sandra Malone is the manager of the Thunderbird RV Park and Cottage Resort on Vancouver Island. She's been running it for 29 years and says that she has seen people pull in for winter from as far away as Quebec and the Northwest Territories.

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VOICE: Already today, we've had three people in the office, we've had to turn away because we don't have sites could put them in for the winter. You know, it caught us off guard with the increase in bookings. And the phones have been just steady, steady, everyday people either not phoning or walking in. I wish I could add another 50 sites. You know, we hate turning people away, but there's just nothing available.

MG: If you take a look Tamara at the cost of, you know, what you're juggling here between, you know, leaving the trailer in Arizona and then trying to find somewhere to stay here in Canada, how does that compare?

TAMARA CARMICHAEL: It's a huge difference in cost. I know a lot of people think that when you go down to Arizona, you must be the rich people, but it's actually very inexpensive to live there. The site that our trailer is on is year round site, and it's called like a six month in, six month out. So you can be in it for up to six months and your trailer remains in this spot stored for six months. That's $2240 U.S. a year. So figure that against the rent here.

MG: Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, in part because just as you say, a lot of people would assume that you need to have bags of money to be able to go and spend the winter somewhere warmer.

TAMARA CARMICHAEL: It's quite the opposite. It's actually very inexpensive to live there. The gas is cheaper. The food is cheaper.

MG: In addition to the COVID cases, I mean, there's also the election and all the uncertainty that is swirling around that. Did that weigh on your mind at all?

TAMARA CARMICHAEL: We were not going to go in November. We would normally would have left in November, but I won't be there during that election because no matter who wins, there's going to be rioting. You can see it coming already. And Arizona is actually a hardcore Republican state or it was, I hear he's falling there right now, but I wouldn't want to be there during it. I really wouldn't. Arizona's an open carry state as well. So there's another good reason not to be there during the election.

MG: Open carry, meaning that you can.

TAMARA CARMICHAEL: Open gun law.

MG: You can have your gun on your hip or what have you?

TAMARA CARMICHAEL: You can have your gun on your hip in the McDonald's if you want.

MG: How are you dealing with all this? This is really uncertain. I mean, it throws your plans up in the air. How are you handling that?

TAMARA CARMICHAEL: It's definitely a day to day. You're not sure what you're doing at this point. Still, we don't know what's going to happen. We're looking at possibly at the beginning of January if things change going down. But it's very unsure. It's a little twilight zone all the time.

MG: What are you going to miss the most about not being in Arizona?

TAMARA CARMICHAEL: We have friends down there. For us, we work sort of 24/7 for seven months. And that's our social life. Our entire social life for the year is down there. We go to car shows. We you know, their economy in the area that we're in is highly based on the snowbirds. Two thirds of the population of Yuma in the winter is snowbirds. So they're very oriented towards having activities that are quite inexpensive to do. And that's what you do down there. You go across to Mexico. You go, you know, dances that costs five dollars to get into with actual, really good bands. It's really quite interesting that they're very attuned to having something available to do it in an inexpensive cost all the time to keep the snowbirds there because their economy is dependent on it.

MG: I wish you the best of luck and bundle up because winter is coming.

TAMARA CARMICHAEL: Quickly.

MG: Tamara, thanks.

TAMARA CARMICHAEL: Thank you.

MG: Tamara Carmichael manages the Leduc Lions Campground, an RV park with her husband, Bud. They will be staying in Canada this winter. There are some Canadians still making the trip south. Rachel Leroux and her husband own a house in Sarasota, Florida, where they spend their winters. And this year, instead of driving, they've booked a flight for the end of November. Rachel is in Kemptville, Ontario, just outside of Ottawa. Rachel, good morning to you.

RACHEL LEROUX: Good morning.

MG: Why are you heading to Florida this year?

RACHEL LEROUX: Like most snowbirds, it was a tough decision. We own a home, and I think that's the biggest draw for us. If we were renting, as many people do when they go down there, we definitely would not be going down. But we are in the comfort of our own home down there. Our clothes are there. Our furniture are there. It's the same feeling we have here in Kemptville, that we have when we're down there in that house. So we are a bit nervous. I mean, I have to admit that and the reason we booked a flight at the end of November is because we wanted the election to be over. We know that it's not going to be calm, but we live in a community that we're in touch with almost on a daily basis. And our neighbours are telling us that they're following the rules just like we are. They're distancing. They're wearing their masks, even though rules have changed down there and they keep changing. And they're doing what they have to do. And the biggest draw for us is that we will be down there in wonderful weather. And the thought of Ottawa, we have a beautiful home here and yes, we could stay, but our thoughts are when it's minus 20 and we're standing outside in our laneway saying hello to our neighbours and then have to run back inside, spending six, you know, at least four months of doing that to us is actually depressing.

MG: The Canadian government is recommending against international travel. Does that give you pause?

RACHEL LEROUX: Somewhat, except that we had no difficulty getting out of country travel insurance. We know that they have advised against it, but unless that they close the border with air travel, obviously it's not like it's not red alert, you know. If things change between now and the end of November, we will relook at this, but as it stands now, we're quite comfortable going down.

MG: If I use your language, I mean, one of the things that people would say is that a red alert is the COVID-19 situation in Florida. There was something like 1415 new cases yesterday, 41 new deaths. They've had a thousand new cases, it seems like every day for weeks and weeks now. Does that make you nervous?

RACHEL LEROUX: Yeah, it makes us nervous, but we've spent our whole summer doing exactly what we were supposed to be doing and following the rules. There's risk everywhere. We haven't had anybody inside our house. We've sat on the patio with a few neighbours and that's been about it. And we plan to do that same thing when we're down there. Our neighbours have all offered to go get groceries for us because we'll be down there without a car, which is another difficult thing with flying. We normally drive. So to isolate down there for the winter or to isolate up here for the winter, we know we're taking a chance. And I know we're going to get some flak from some of our friends and family, but so far, this is the decision that we've made and we're going to take that risk.

MG: Are you getting that flak already? Are people kind of raising an eyebrow asking why you're still going?

RACHEL LEROUX: A little bit. Until I explain to them that owning a house makes such a difference. You know, like it's not a rental property. I would never go down if I was just renting for a month or something. But we have a house sitting there and we got to do something. I mean, we have someone checking our house, but it's not really a great situation to be in. We're worried about, you know, things that might stop us would be civil unrest, of course. And if they close the border, we could have a health issue that comes up and that could change things. Or our medical insurance company that so far is giving us COVID coverage, if they change that, then we would stay home back and stay back in Canada.

MG: You talked a little bit about the idea of what life would be like if you stayed here and had to winter in Canada. This is something that a lot of people are considering. Gord Alder and his wife are from Ottawa. They're planning to fly to Florida next month. Have a listen to their reasoning in terms of what they think their life would be like compared to being here.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: In Florida, we would be able to play pickleball outdoors just about every day. We can bike every day. There's enough running, especially in the warm Florida weather. Even in the wintertime, I'll work up a sweat. It's quite active. And if we stayed here in Canada, we would be essentially hibernating inside because I'm not prepared to play any indoor sports.

MG: What do you think, Rachel, life would be like in terms of your physical health, sure, but also your mental health? And not everybody obviously is able to go down somewhere warm. But if you weren't able to go and be in Florida, what do you think that winter would be like for you?

RACHEL LEROUX: I think we could survive it. I mean, I'm glad that we I mean the marriage that's coming up to 50 years. So, you know, we learn to give each other space. I think a lot of people are thinking that it's a crazy idea, but that's because the snow hasn't fallen yet. You know, once it gets really bitter cold outside, people are, I think a lot of snowbirds are going to think, oh, shoot, I can't do this, you know, and might make some changes. If they open that land border, I think a lot of snowbirds, even though the COVID situation and even though the political situation is not great, I think they would be crossing that border.

MG: Can I just ask just finally, what would you say to somebody who they're listening and they're saying, are you serious that you're gonna go? I mean, with the borders closed, the country has this election that seems like it's, you know, rough around the edges. Nobody's entirely sure where it's going to go and COVID is roaring through that country. What would you say to somebody?

RACHEL LEROUX: I've already gotten that sort of comment from people. It's a personal decision. And, you know, if I stick to the rules that we've already been doing, you know, when I think over the summer that people here never, the bubble never worked, for instance. I see people here with their grandkids and their kids coming in and out of the house constantly. They're all taking risks by doing that. They're not following the rules. You know, and my husband and I have, we have one son, he's an adult and I think we've seen him like three times over the summer and it's been in the backyard. So we're being very, very cautious. And when we get down there, we plan to isolate ourselves for two weeks and just stay inside, just in case, to do it out of respect. So they're going to have to just, you know, nobody is going to be saying to us, oh, good for you, go. But we own a home, and I think that is the biggest draw for us.

MG: I wish you the best of luck. When do you fly?

RACHEL LEROUX: The end of November. We're waiting until the election, well, whatever happens, but we're waiting until it calms down. We do have also, you know, 24 hours that we could cancel if we had to, so that's kind of giving us some comfort.

MG: Good luck.

RACHEL LEROUX: Thank you.

MG: And thanks for talking to us.

RACHEL LEROUX: OK.

MG: Bye bye.

RACHEL LEROUX: Bye bye.

MG: Rachel Leroux and her husband are planning to winter in Sarasota, Florida. If you are a snowbird, but feeling that it's a difficult decision this year. Do you stay? Do you go? Let us know what you're planning and how you are making that decision. Maybe you've already made it and maybe you're going or you are staying put. Let us know how you are processing this decision in this time of COVID. You can go to our website at cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the contact link to find all of the ways to reach us. That is it for The Current for today. Q is up next on CBC Radio One. Tom Power speaking with Michelle Latimer, filmmaker who has worked in documentaries for the most part. She is making the leap to primetime television with a new CBC series called, Trickster. I have seen some of it. It's excellent. You'll hear all about it when Michelle Latimer speaks with Tom, coming up on CBC Radio One. We heard earlier about Layton Reed. He was a photographer in Halifax, a husband and a father. He died from cancer. His favourite singer songwriter was Jenn Grant, another Maritimers. And so we thought we would leave you this morning with her rendition of "Eye of the Tiger." I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Song: "Eye of the Tiger" by Jenn Grant]

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Oct. 6, 2020 episode transcript

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