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The AIH Transcript for September 30, 2020

Hosts: Helen Mann and Chris Howden

Prologue

HELEN MANN: Hello. I'm Helen Mann, sitting in for Carol off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

HM: You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. A Montreal bar owner offers discounted draft and his hopes for the future on the last night before Quebec shuts down bars because of COVID.

CH: Not so fast. While one group of Ontario doctors argues it's time for tighter restrictions in the province, another group says the latest spike in coronavirus cases is no reason to shut things down.

HM: Well-wisher. For years, we only knew him as the "Berlin Patient" -- before the first person known to be cured of HIV introduced himself by name, a friend remembers the late Timothy Ray Brown.

CH: A debate debatable. After last night's unpresidential war of words, Washington Post columnist Margaret Sullivan says that without a mute button or a stun gun, there's no reason for the upcoming debates to go ahead.

HM: To the rescue. The first test flight of a jet suit paramedic gets off the ground in northern England, allowing its wearer to reach new heights with impressive speed.

CH: And here's to you Mr. Robinson. An Ohio Democrat named Phil Robinson is confused and then upset when Republicans accuse Phil Robinson of financial impropriety because they got the wrong Phil Robinson. As It Happens. The Wednesday Edition. Radio that knows it can be risky to use the Phillip Buster.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Quebec Last Call

Quebec Last Call

Guest: Charles Landry

CH: Montreal's Taverne Midway is advertising cheap beer tonight: five dollars a pint until the kegs run dry. And after that, it says on the bar's Facebook page, "We'll see you on October 28." That's because Quebec's premier has ordered Montreal's bars and restaurants closed as of tomorrow. The move is in response to a spike in cases of COVID-19 in Quebec. Charles Landry is the co-owner of Taverne Midway. We reached him in Montreal.

HM: Mr. Landry, how are you feeling about the government's decision to shut you down?

CHARLES LANDRY: Oh, right now, it's a mixed emotion of sadness and anger. Right now, it's very difficult for our industry, and those are hard times.

HM: Break that down for us maybe. Why angry to begin with?

CL: We've worked very hard for the last couple months to be ready and to make sure the health of our staff and our customers was well served. And we put a lot of money into it. Every measure were respected. And now one more time, it's on our back and we've got to close.

HM: Give us a sense of the extra costs that you're facing -- dealing with things like protective shields, plexiglass, that sort of thing. How much money are we talking about?

CL: For the reopening, we put around 6,000 dollars just for hand sanitizer, plexiglass, new menu, the website just to make sure we don't have any paper menu on the tables. And now I don't count the losses because you had the fridge full of food and the cold room full of beer, so it's a lot of losses that we need to start over.

HM: And the loss of business during that time.

CL: It's a lot. We're situated in the Quartier des Spectacles Montreal, so all of the office orders shut down, most of them. We have no shows and no festivals in Montreal so this summer was a very hard time. It's about 70 percent loss for a business.

HM: You say you're also sad. Can you explain those feelings to me?

CL: Well as an entrepreneur, we feel it for staff -- those are your family. We're working together every day of the week. For me, all my employees are permanent. So you're not waiting like work as a bartender during school. Their job is bartending and it's, yeah, it's sad to let them go. And it's a big loss of money for them too, which is pretty sad.

HM: This is set to be a 28 day shutdown. What kind of losses do you think you're facing over that time?

CL: First, the money we don't make. Now, the federal government just cut the rent subvention. So we're on our own. So we hope the provincial government just puts some not some loans, but puts money on the table to help the industry to go through those 28 days, if it's 28 days, if not more.

HM: What about your staff? Can you tell me about the conversations you've been having with them?

CL: We're going to do the best we can to support them, if it means helping them with the money we've been set to help them. But for sure, it's a moral support a lot because they're losing their job, they have an apartment, they have families, so we want to make sure they're okay.

HM: Who do you blame for this situation?

CL: I'm not sure there's someone to blame. It's not my job to ensure the public health. So we're following the rules. But sure, the reopening of schools and some other businesses that we see, I would say slaking on the measure. We saw a difference at that time. So I know we don't want to close school, it's important for kids. But if there's a problem, if you don't help it, it's going to continue for sure.

HM: So you understand why the province is taking such an extreme position?

CL: I do understand. The sad part of it is this bar and restaurant have been doing very good. We have received very good compliments from the governments because we don't have any enclosing and big spread of COVID-19. So [inaudible] like you're doing the job, we need to blame someone. And one more time, it's you. It's sad and frustrating.

HM: So you're offering people cheap beer tonight. What do you think the atmosphere will be like?

CL: I think it's going to turn out a lot of friends and family who just want to come and say thanks for those past couple months because we've been working very hard. I think it's going to be a mix of happiness to see people supporting the business. But at the same time, sadness to be in and knowing that we're going to be close for at least a month.

HM: Are you worried that your advertising of cheap beer is going to draw the kind of huge crowd that might contribute to a spike in coronavirus cases?

CL: I don't think so. Putting the beer at five dollars a pint was more about trying to save some of the losses and say a big thank you to people who have been customers at our place for the past couple of weeks. But no, at the same time, all my staff is going to be here tonight making sure the distance and all the measured are enforced. So it's business as usual.

HM: What do you say to the people who have been clamoring for bars to be shut down and blaming them for the increases that we've been seeing in major cities like Montreal, Quebec City, Toronto?

CL: I would say the government have made the statement that bars and restaurants were not a problem for the COVID. We've been open since June. We didn't see any big increase in cases in Quebec. So I understand people at bars or a place where you get a couple beers, and I understand the fear of the beers. But at the same time, I mean, come at Midway, come see how we do things. People come in the bar, we have register, so we know everyone in the bar, if something happened we have hand sanitizer, you need to have the mask, it's a limited group, 50 percent of our capacity. We had plexiglass everywhere in the bar. We're cleaning every like 15 minutes all the surfaces. So I don't know a lot of people who do that at home when they have 10, 12, 15 people at the same time.

HM: Well, best of luck, Mr. Landry. Thank you very much for telling us about all of your concerns.

CL: I appreciate it. Thanks for your time.

CH: Charles Landry is the co-owner of Taverne Midway in Montreal's entertainment district. He's in Montreal. And we'll have more on the discussion about COVID restrictions in Ontario later in the program.

[Music]

Debate Chaos

Guest: Margaret Sullivan

CH: The word debate is too generous a word for what went down on stage last night in Cleveland, Ohio, between U.S. President Donald Trump and former Vice President Joe Biden. Political commentators had other descriptions: unseemly shout fest, a deep disservice to democracy -- and this one from across the pond -- "an ill-tempered and at times incomprehensible squabble between two angry septuagenarians who palpably loathe each other." Here is what it sounded like moderated by Chris Wallace of Fox News.

CHRIS WALLACE: You'll get the final word...

JOE BIDEN: Well, it's hard to get any word in with this clown. Excuse me...[Cross talk]

DONALD TRUMP: Hey let me just tell you Joe.

CHRIS WALLACE: No, no, no. Mr. President.

DONALD TRUMP: 3 and half million Joe. Why did he deserve 3 and a half million from Moscow?

JOE BIDEN: Look, here's a deal. We want to talk about families and ethics. I don't want to do that. I mean, his family we could talk about all night. His family...

DONALD TRUMP: My family lost a fortune by coming down and helping out with government. [Cross talk]

JOE BIDEN: This is not about raising my family or his family, it's about your family. The American people. That's not true. He doesn't want to talk about what you need. You, the American people. It's about you. That's who we're talking about.

CHRIS WALLACE: All right. That's the end of the segment. We're moving on.

JOE BIDEN: He didn't take them. [Cross talk]

CHRIS WALLACE: Vice president. No!

DONALD TRUMP: Can I be honest? It's a very important question.

JOE BIDEN: Try to be honest.

CHRIS WALLACE: The answer to the question is no. No, sir.

DONALD TRUMP: Ukraine, with a billion dollars of...[Cross talk].

JOE BIDEN: Not true. [Cross talk]

CHRIS WALLACE: Gentlemen! I hate to raise my voice but it seems to be -- why shouldn't I be different than the two of you?

CH: In The Washington Post today, media columnist Margaret Sullivan said failing some major changes there's no reason why the upcoming two debates should even go ahead. And today, the commission on presidential debates said it will be adding new tools to maintain order next time around. We reached Margaret Sullivan in New York City.

HM: Margaret, you said in your column today that Chris Wallace needed a mute button, a penalty box or a stun gun to control the two candidates. Do you think that that is what the debates commission meant today by new tools to maintain order?

MARGARET SULLIVAN: [Chuckles] Well, I don't think they're about to unveil a stun gun, but early reports do suggest that there will be a way to cut off the sound after a particular amount of time, which is a sensible thing to do. That audio clip tells us clearly that this isn't working the way it played out on Tuesday night and something has to happen.

HM: What were the moments for you that convinced you we should reconsider even holding two more presidential debates?

MS: Right from the beginning, it was disastrous. There really was never a moment or certainly not very many moments during that 90 minute debate in which you thought, okay we're you know, we're getting some substance here and we have some respectful silence and a reasonable response. It was never anything except a dumpster fire from the moment it started. And unfortunately, the moderator wasn't able to control it.

HM: Well, you said in the column that Chris Wallace was profoundly ineffective at taking control. I'm reading today President Trump interrupted either Wallace or Joe Biden at least 128 times. So you have to wonder, would anyone have been able to reign in the president who seemed so hell bent on ignoring the rules?

MS: That's right. And I'm glad that you're presenting it that way, because I think it's really important not to present this as sort of, oh, they were both at fault. It isn't that way. President Trump was really out of control, as he often is. I mean, this was completely predictable in some ways, and it was his approach that created the chaos. Everything else, all the cross talking and everybody speaking at once was a reaction largely to what he was doing.

HM: Let's say they do decide to institute the idea of this mute button or mic cut off on the table. Why hide Donald Trump's or anyone else's true character? Shouldn't the public see what the person is like, interruptions and all?

MS: That's a reasonable argument. And I think that that does deserve to be considered. I think that if he gets cut off every time, that's going to get the point across. And, you know, from my point of view, the whole thing on Tuesday night was just so painful. It was very bad TV. Citizens will be better served if they can actually hear the candidates speaking uninterrupted.

HM: You know, that moment that is being replayed so much today, we're talking about unvarnished character. We heard President Trump say that the far-right group, Proud Boys, should "stand back and stand by." He is telling reporters today he didn't even know who the Proud Boys were and has always denounced white supremacy. But at the very least, didn't the debate last night provide some clarity on what Donald Trump believes, even if it's disturbing?

MS: That's right. And it was shocking. You know, he was given a very easy entree to be able to say white supremacy is bad, these groups need to fully be condemned. And instead of doing that, he said, hang on Proud Boys, I may need you. At least that's what it sounded like. So, yes, I think it's valuable for people to understand that. And I don't think they'll have any trouble getting at the essence of President Trump, even if we can hear him and Joe Biden next time around.

HM: Do you think that Vice President Biden could have done more perhaps to rein in President Trump or to land more blows?

MS: I think he could have. He didn't do too badly, I think. You know, people were watching it with fairly low expectations of the former vice president, because he's been portrayed as practically senile or, you know, does he have dementia? Can he put an English sentence together? So the expectations were very low. I think that he comported himself fairly well. No, he didn't land too many very important or very fatal blows. But, you know, he handled himself fairly well and is thought to be the winner of the debate, if that matters. Of course, Hillary Clinton was thought to be the winner of all of her debates with Donald Trump too, and you see what happened.

HM: Now, the next debate is supposed to be a town hall format in which the candidates are facing questions from the public. Do you think that format will be more manageable given the personalities involved?

MS: It's hard to even imagine how that's going to work, given what we saw last night. Now you're introducing members of the public and their questions. And Steve Scully from C-SPAN, it is the moderator. I mean, these new tools, the cut off, whatever it may be, had better be working because even with only three people involved everybody was talking. So introducing another element could make it even more chaotic. You know, I hope that by then things will be worked out. So it's a little bit more orderly and has a little more decorum to it.

HM: If you were somehow in control of the debate committee, a commission I should say, what kind of rules would you put in place?

MS: Well, for one thing, the candidates must be cut off when their time is done. They can't interrupt each other. It's fine to interject something. It's fine to make a point. It's fine to raise your hand and insist that you want to answer something. But I do think that there has to be a way to enforce that you can't just talk constantly and insult each other at this point.

HM: We're closing in on November, how much do you think a debate like last night's are the ones to come will actually affect how voters cast their ballot in November?

MS: You know, I think that from everything we know about debates, they can influence people somewhat. They usually, unless something really dramatic happens, they don't tend to change people's minds entirely or to bring a lot of people over into another column. And in this particular election, people have pretty much made up their minds. There is only a small percentage of people who are undecided, which seems incredible to me that they could be undecided at this point because the choices are rather stark. So will they make a difference? They could. I don't think that they will be decisive unless somebody really does something, you know, if, for example, former Vice President Biden makes some sort of tremendous gaffe or seems out of it or something like that, then I think that could make a change.

HM: Margaret, thank you very much for speaking with us. It was quite a night for everyone watching. I appreciate your insight.

MS: It really was. Thank you for having me Helen.

CH: Margaret Sullivan is The Washington Post's media columnist. We reached her in New York City. Viewers around the world were relieved when last night's 90 minute presidential debate finally ended. But probably no country was more relieved and exhausted than Japan. Viewers who tuned into the country's national broadcaster, NHK, heard six voices: the three men on stage, plus the three voices doing real-time Japanese interpretation. Here's what it sounded like. [Cross talking and Japanese interpretation] This was the sound of six voices talking at once on NHK's broadcast of last night's U.S. presidential debate in Japan.

[Music]

Jet Suit Guy

Guest: Andy Mawson

CH: These days, health care workers seem like superheroes, although they have to wear scrubs instead of cool tight suits made of vibranium weave or whatever. And usually they can't fly. I say usually because some paramedics in northern England are getting ready to fight to save lives by fighting gravity with a jetpack. The group recently did a test flight simulation of a jet suit paramedic responding to a fake emergency call. Andy Mawson came up with the idea. He himself is a paramedic and the director of operations at the Great North Air Ambulance Service in northern England. That's where we reached him.

HM: Mr. Mawson, did you ever imagine a day in which your job might involve you flying a jet suit?

ANDY MAWSON: No, I can't say I ever did. But then I guess when I set out on the road to be a paramedic, I never dreamed I'd even work on a helicopter. So, yeah, it's been an incredible 20 years as a paramedic. And maybe this is, you know, the next step in how we deliver medical care in the mountains. Who knows?

HM: Describe this jet suit for us, what it looks like, and how it operates.

AM: Certainly slow, it's developed by a company based in the south of England called Gravity Industries, and their chief executive, Richard Browning, came up with the idea, I believe, in about 2014. And basically he set out to produce a way of flying that was very intuitive. So you're not actually holding any controls. Basically, you have gust by a jet engine, on your buck and jet turbines on your arms. And essentially you just move your arms around to vector that thrust to produce either lift or descent and then flight in any direction that you want. If you've seen the footage, Richard flies it incredibly well. As it goes up the hills, as we saw on the test flight, it's incredibly graceful, really, really safe and very measured.

HM: Now, the Lake District is a beautiful part of the world. You attract a lot of visitors. What kinds of situations might a paramedic encounter where this could be really useful?

AM: Yeah, the Lake's World Heritage site, absolutely beautiful part of the world, we're very privileged to operate there and provide our service. But it's a really challenging environment as well, as you can imagine. Very often, if we send in the aircraft, the helicopter and our critical care team to an incident, they might have to land some distance from the patient. The other side of it is the less critical injuries that we see with kind of fell runners and walkers and sometimes extreme sports where somebody might break a leg, they don't need the critical care team and the helicopter, but they do need a paramedic by their side. And this is a beautiful way of doing that.

HM: So it saves significant time. How quickly can you travel in the suit?

AM: So the suits actually been upto to sort of nigh on 100 miles an hour over water. Obviously, we wouldn't advocate flying it that fast over rocky ground. But on the test flight, I think Richard was just hitting speeds of about 15 to 20 miles an hour. From the bottom of the fell, they estimate, it would take them maybe 25 to 30 minutes to get to the point where our casualty was. He covered a 700 metre ascent in 90 seconds.

HM: Wow. That's really quite impressive.

AM: It's huge. It really is. And there's some areas that if we're in the right place at the right time, dare I say, at the bottom of that hill, if someone was to have a cardiac arrest on the top of that mountain, I'm confident that we would have a defibrillator on that patient within eight minutes, which I think is just...it's mind blowing.

HM: And how much equipment can be carried alongside the suit?

AM: So we're looking at the design and the payload in the region of 10 to 15 kilograms. And it will be spread up the pilot's legs and sort of across the chest in various pouches. And it would include oxygen, different emergency drugs, splints and things like that. You know, ways to control any catastrophic hemorrhage. So we'd be looking to provide early critical interventions in those particular cases, but also as well, maybe even being able to manage the whole thing from the medical point of view without any further support and working with the mountain rescue team to get the patient off the hill.

HM: It can be pretty drizzly in the Lake District in the winter, it can be a bit rough there as well. How's this thing going to do, do you think, in difficult weather?

AM: Really good question. A great point. You know, as we're drilling more and more into the data, what we probably find is that the jet suit itself would probably have less application in the winter than it would do in the spring, the summer, and the autumn, for the reasons that you mentioned. It wouldn't perform particularly well in really heavy rain -- it would be a bit of a risk to the turbines. But actually, it's very stable in wind because it's so intuitive, you're not actually kind of holding controls, you are just adapting your body to that through factoring. So we're relatively confident that we will operate in quite high winds.

HM: Well, it may be intuitive, but as you've pointed out, it's also pretty fast. Are there built-in safety features to protect the operator?

AM: So there's obviously things like sort of immediate cut offs for the engines and things like that.but essentially I think it comes down to the way that we would operate it. You would fly very close to the ground, as you see in the footage, Richard sometimes (would fly) only three or four feet high and fly within the speed that, you know, if we do have an engine failure or something, then it just means that, you know, we're not going to sustain any sort of major injury or do anything more than really scuff our knees, if that makes sense.

HM: You don't envision then a time when a paramedic in a suit might need a paramedic in a suit?

AM: That would definitely defeat the purpose of it somewhat. I mean, you know, we could say the same thing about carrying medical kit up to a patient, you know, in perhaps wet, slippery terrain that is very steep -- there's every chance that somebody could injure their ankle or their leg. You know, operating in that environment, there will always be some level of risk. But the jet suit lends itself to a very slow, controlled flight. But it's the difference that you make at maybe 50 miles an hour versus someone on foot carrying heavy kit that's doing maybe two or three miles an hour.

HM: How long do you think it'll be before the suit will be in use?

AM: So we haven't put any time frames on it. Gravity learned an awful lot about the sort of terrain that we hope to operate in. So they've got some modifications and some changes that they want to make to the suit itself. So that will take a little bit of time. But what we have achieved, I think, together is a really great foundation for some ongoing collaboration. And then next week, maybe table a discussion about where we go from here.

HM: Well, give our congratulations to Richard for his successful test flight. And thank you for telling us all about this. It's very exciting. It sounds like Iron Man.

AM: [Chuckles] Thank you so much Helen.

CH: Andy Mawson came up with the idea for the jet suit paramedic. We reached him in Stockton, northern England.

[Music]

Part 2: Timothy Ray Brown, 1st person cured of HIV, was an 'unlikely rock star,' says friend

Ontario Doctors

Guest: Susan Richardson

CH: People in Ontario and Quebec woke up to a new COVID shock this week. Cases in both provinces spiked. And Ontario registered its highest number of positive cases ever. But a group of Ontario doctors say the province should keep calm and carry on with reopening. The open letter signed by 21 doctors contradicts a letter by a different group of doctors who asked for a return to some restrictions that were imposed by Ontario in the spring. Dr. Susan Richardson is a professor emerita at the University of Toronto and the former head of microbiology at SickKids Hospital. She signed a letter warning against new restrictions. We reached her in Toronto.

HM: Dr. Richardson, lockdown's worked the first time to cut the spread of COVID, why do you think this is not the best option this time around?

SUSAN RICHARDSON: I think the question that our group wanted to bring to the fore is that it's really not a question of lockdown versus no lockdown, but it's a question of: is this appropriate at this time? And we want to consider the concept, number one, of total harm minimization. I think we all know that there are many collateral harms of lockdown, including parents not able to go to work, school closures, routine medical care getting backlogged, cancer cases not getting diagnosed, people's livelihoods affected, businesses shuttering, stress, depression, suicides, drug use, et cetera. Overdoses. And so we want to make sure that when we are considering going back to something that will dramatically affect the daily lives and livelihoods of people, that we have the best evidence for that.

HM: But people look at these spike in numbers this weekend and they worry, you know, they see these positive cases going up in particular areas and think, you know, is there a way we can roll this back? Is there a way we can make the pain more limited?

SR: Right. Well, the thing about the numbers is we need to be clear about what they mean. So, yes, the numbers have increased. But comparing those numbers to the numbers that existed in April and May of this year is false, in terms of comparing the absolute numbers. In March and April, May, we were doing 350 percent less testing than we're doing now. But what is interesting is that the percent positivity right now is about one and a half percent, whereas it was 7 to 8 percent in the spring. And one case of COVID is now occurring in a younger person is not the same as a case of COVID occurring in a long term care resident.

HM: But new modeling released by the province today shows that other older age groups are starting to see an increase in positive tests too. Some other epidemiologists say that's it inevitable, that it's going to start moving into older populations because little children don't live alone.

SR: That's a really important point. And yes, it's occurring in all age groups. But let's be clear that it is occurring primarily in the younger age group. And we can't prevent this infection. We need to live with this infection. Learn to live with this infection, can't eradicate it. The whole goal was to change the shape of the curve so that we would have the health capacity to deal with people who got sick. And also, we have made great strides and improvement in long-term care and retirement facilities such that people there are much better protected.

HM: Now, earlier this week, another group of doctors released a letter calling for immediate new restrictions on non-essential businesses. It's confusing to members of the general public. We're getting these mixed messages from experts on both sides. And I guess I wonder, why is there an inability to find consensus among doctors about the best path forward at this point?

SR: It's a good point. There are. It's an unusual situation. With COVID we've never been in an era where we have such immediate information from so many different sources. And so it is hard to bring them together into a consensus. And there always will be people who will have different information. We want to encourage open debate. But we also want to present ideas that can be debated in the open sphere of public, media, et cetera. So the concept of total harm minimization in approach to COVID, it is not just the only disease or only issue on the face of the planet right now that's important. We need to keep the economy going. We need to minimize COVID disease. But we also need not to deprive people of their livelihoods, etc. if it's not necessary. And we feel that at the present time, given the numbers and the population which they're spreading, that this should be manageable by our current health care system. And that's a very important point.

HM: You are among 20 doctors who signed this letter urging the province to use a more localized approach. Do you think that your view is more of a minority opinion right now among health professionals in Ontario?

SR: Well, I don't think anyone's taken that poll, but I think there is a significant body that would agree with this, because the point is to really look at the data carefully and decide where the areas that need to be targeted are, as opposed to more broadly sweeping restrictions which affect people more adversely than positively.

HM: So looking at the current trajectory of cases in Ontario, what would your remedy be? What would you like the people in charge to do at this point?

SR: We need to keep an eye on the percent positive -- which is fairly low right now, 1.5 percent. Not pay too much attention to actual everyday numbers -- we need to look at rolling averages so that they are smoothed out over time and not accepted by individual variation that's caused by many things. And then we need to decide when we see a significant uptick, and we have to compare that, of course, to the capacity of our hospitals and health care system to care for people who are sick.

HM: Are you yourself comfortable right now going inside a gym, eating in an indoor restaurant, having a drink in a bar or going to a movie theater?

SR: I go to my gym. I have eaten inside at restaurants. I don't go to bars. But I think that until we know that they are indeed the sites of spread of this virus, that we should be careful about how much we restrict them.

HM: Dr. Richardson, thank you very much for sharing your thoughts with us today. I appreciate it.

SR: You're welcome. Thank you.

CH: Dr. Susan Richardson is a professor emerita at the U of T and the former head of microbiology at SickKids Hospital. She's one of 21 Ontario doctors who are warning against new COVID restrictions in Ontario.

[Music]

Ava Vogel

CH: Edmonton teenager Ava Vogel is into horse jumping. And a lot of horse jumpers talk about how they kind of become one with their steed. But the 17 year old Ms. Vogel has done them one better. She is the jumper and she is also the horse. She explained to the CBC's Edmonton AM this morning.

AVA VOGEL: Well, I jump around and gallop on all four legs and I try to mimic a horse as best I can.

MARK CONNOLLY: So you run around like a horse?

AVA VOGEL: Yes. [Chuckles]

MARK CONNOLLY: Now, how did you get into that? How did you take this up?

AVA VOGEL: Oh, about six years ago, I started actual horse riding lessons. And from there I saw other girls online who did it. And I was so interested in it. And this looks so unique and so fun. And I've been doing it ever since.

MARK CONNOLLY: I guess the big question is why?

AVA VOGEL: For me, it's just a form of exercise. It's a great upper body workout. And I've made so many friends all across the world over the Internet. And we all support each other and it's what we do, it's our hobby.

MARK CONNOLLY: Now, how did you figure out how to jump like a horse? I've seen the videos and it is unusual because we're not really built for that, right?

AVA VOGEL: Yeah. I would look at actual videos of horses and I would ride horses myself, so I'd figure out how the horse moves and I would translate that over to the human skeleton to figure out how I could apply that to myself. It took a lot of like training and repetition to be able to build up the proper muscles and a lot of stretching so my wrists were flexible enough to handle the impact.

MARK CONNOLLY: Now Ava have you ever heard of the show "This is That?"

AVA VOGEL: I have not actually.

MARK CONNOLLY: Okay. It's a CBC show that used to be on. And sometimes when I'm doing interviews, people say to me, was that a real interview or is that a "This is That" interview because some people think it's just made up. So this is an actual thing, right?

AVA VOGEL: Oh, yeah it is. [Laughter]

MARK CONNOLLY: So how did you end up getting into Ripley's Believe It or Not?

AVA VOGEL: Well, know last year and spring they found my Instagram page and they reached out to me and asked if I want to be a part of their series. And I was so excited. It's a dream come true to me. And I said yes.

MARK CONNOLLY: So how did people react when you tell them what you're hobby is?

AVA VOGEL: Well, most people found out over like all the news coverage I have gotten recently, but I tend to get a mixed review. A lot of people think it's very unique and interesting and they support me. Others think it's very weird and strange, which I completely understand.

CH: That was Ava Vogel speaking with the CBC's Connolly today. Ms. Vogel jumps like a horse which got her into a new Ripley's Believe It or Not book.

[Music]

Berlin Patient Obit

Guest: Mark S. King

CH: For many years, the late Timothy Ray Brown was known to most of the world only as the "Berlin Patient." He was the first person known to be cured of HIV. But he didn't want to be just a case study. He wanted to be the face of hope for others with HIV. So a few years after his cure, he announced to the world that he was the Berlin Patient. Here he is speaking at the 2012 International AIDS Conference in Washington, D.C. from our archives.

TIMOTHY RAY BROWN: As many of you in the room know, several years ago I received a bone marrow stem cell transplant to treat non HIV related leukemia. As a result of that transplant, my body has become resistant to HIV. My case, my history is proof in concept that HIV can be cured. Hope is alive and cure is on the horizon. As a side note, you never really lived until you've had your personal health records discussed and debated on national television. [Crowd laughs] Although the focus of today's press conference isn't my medical records, which are available in every Wi-Fi zone, and it's not a time to engage in a debate about my status. Let me be crystal clear: I am HIV negative. I am free of the virus. I am cured of the AIDS virus.

CH: That was Timothy Ray Brown speaking in 2012 from our archives. Mr. Brown died of leukemia yesterday. He was 54. Mark S. King is an HIV/AIDS activist and a friend of Mr. Brown. We reached him in Baltimore, Maryland.

HM: Mark King, first of all, my condolences on the loss of your friend.

MARK S. KING: Thank you.

HM: You met Timothy Ray Brown at that conference in 2012 where we just heard him speak. What was the meeting like?

MARK S. KING: Well, it's a very large international meeting of scientists, community advocates, and public health officials. And he was the star of the show. You know, everything about the portion of his speech we just heard is truly Timothy -- in that I mean, he was modest, he was not a media superstar expert. He was just a guy who this remarkable thing had happened to who was trying his best to navigate it and do some good in the world. There was an event, a particular reception of some sort where he was there, there were lots of people living with HIV like myself, who just as soon as we realized who he was, gravitated to him or to meet him and talk to him and thank him and express our appreciation because he had gone through a real physical gantlet. It was extremely dangerous what he had gone through as a patient.

HM: It sounds like he was the rockstar of the conference.

MARK S. KING: He certainly was. And an unlikely rockstar because, again, he never really asked for the spotlight. The guy was just trying to survive another day. And in the process of his cancer treatment and the stem cell transplant and all of this, they came across this novel idea of why don't we replace his blood with this very rare genetic blood type that is resistant to HIV. So while we're trying to reverse his cancer, let's see if we can reverse the HIV too. And that's essentially what happened. And so he was an ordinary man in extraordinary circumstance.

HM: So how did he feel about all that attention he got once he decided to reveal himself as the Berlin Patient?

MARK S. KING: He was afraid. He was scared. You know, he made a joke in a speech about it's not everybody that has every medical record about themselves online for the entire world to see. So he was nervous about what it would mean. He was nervous about whether or not he could fulfill the role of this icon, you know, this symbol, because we certainly projected those of us living with HIV, we certainly projected onto Timothy all of our own hopes of our own wishes and desires that maybe one day we wouldn't have HIV anymore either.

HM: The German doctor who performed the transplant said that Mr. Brown was basically in the right place at the right time. What was it about the circumstances of his condition that allowed him to become this, effectively, this guinea pig?

MARK S. KING: At the time that he was being treated for his leukemia in Berlin, we knew enough to know that there was this genetic mutation in some people's blood that made them resistant to HIV infection, in very rare cases. And his very creative oncologist who was treating his cancer, happened to know this and thought, well, if I'm going to have to give a stem cell transplant to this guy, I wonder if anybody on the stem cell transplant list also has this genetic mutation making them resistant to HIV. It was a shot in the dark. It was a needle in a haystack. And sure enough, one of the donors carried this genetic mutation. And it was that donor's stem cells that they used to transplant into Timothy's body. It was very very serious. He nearly died twice. He never tested HIV positive again. And they were never able to locate it in his body. And in fact, sadly, Timothy Brown died of leukemia. It was that leukemia that re-emerged to claim him. But he was still HIV negative.

HM: He said that he wanted to give people hope, and that is why he decided to reveal himself as the Berlin Patient. And he also, as I understand it, was a real advocate for prophylaxis, prevention pills to keep people from getting HIV. How did he come out as an activist?

MARK S. KING: Tentatively, but soon with great enthusiasm, because he realized how warm our community is. We were cheering him along every step of the way. And so I think he got more comfortable with that as the years have come by and he, yes, he was the first person cured of HIV and then went on the pill, the treatment prep, the daily pill that prevents HIV infection -- he went on it -- because he once said, you know, it would be really terrible if the first guy cured of HIV contracted it again.

HM: Now, there's only been so far one other person to be cured of HIV infection, Adam Castillejo, I believe, the so-called London Patient. Given that, where do you see hope in what researchers have learned from Timothy and Adam to bring about a bigger breakthrough?

MARK S. KING: Timothy's story and the fact that he stepped forward and put a face on an HIV cure, electrified the cure/research community and the researchers doing it just gave everybody a boost. It's hard to measure how many more funding dollars, how many more researchers doubled their efforts to look for an HIV cure because of Timothy.

HM: Timothy Ray Brown became a good friend to you. What will you miss most about him?

MARK S. KING: Timothy Ray Brown liked to have a good time. He was as alive as anyone else. Deeply in love with his partner, also named Tim. They had a great love affair. And what I'll miss is his sense of fun and his sense of this 'Alice in Wonderland I can't believe I'm in this situation because really I'm just a regular guy who, you know, enjoys my boyfriend and enjoys going out. And, oh, I guess along the way, I will serve as an inspiration to millions of people around the world.'

HM: Well, again, I'm sorry for your loss. Thank you for sharing your memories. We appreciate it.

MARK S. KING: You're welcome.

CH: Mark S. King writes the blog, My Fabulous Disease. He was a friend of Timothy Ray Brown, the first person known to be cured of HIV. Mr. Brown died yesterday of leukemia at the age of 54. And you can find out more about him on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Phil Robinson

CH: Phil Robinson is British and has a YouTube channel in which he discusses his travels at some length.

VOICE: We started our trip at the Sainsbury Centre for Visual Arts, an art gallery and museum, opened in 1978 on the campus of the University of East Anglia, just outside Norwich. In 1973. , Sir Robert...

CH: And yet somehow Phil Robinson is also this sports reporter.

VOICE 1: All right, we're back. Joining us this week from The Raider Ramble is Phil Robertson the third. The third. Not the first. Not the second. The third.

VOICE 2: The third. Make sure you clarify, because they're that actually four of us.

CH: And he's all these Phils Robinson too.

VOICE 1: Welcome. I'm Drill.

VOICE 2: And I'm Phil Robinson.

VOICE 1: Welcome. Hi Phil. How are you doing?

VOICE 2: We're all doing well, thanks. And your good-self?

VOICE 3: Hello, Nikolai from USM. Today I'm here with Professor Phil Robinson from CMRI in Sydney.

VOICE 4: I'm Phil Robinson. I'm a screenwriter. I'm a member of the Board of directors of the Writers Guild. And I've been a member, a proud member, since 1989.

VOICE 5: It all began in 1967. Phil Robinson was a sophomore in high school when he got a job at IGA Hickman's as a bag boy.

VOICE 6: I made a dollar ten an hour.

CH: What is going on with Phil Robinson? How is he so many people or are we supposed to believe there are lots of different people named Phil Robinson? Well, of course, we believe that because it's true. But surprisingly, the Ohio Republican Party didn't think of that. Last Friday, the party put out an ad attacking Democratic State Representative Phil Robinson. It read, "Phil Robinson can't manage his own finances. Can we trust him with ours?" And the link led to a story about how Phil Robinson had been sued for failure to pay thousands of dollars in 1999. A day later, the Ohio State representative asked the Republican Party to take the ad down. In his case was simple, it wasn't his case. Phil Robinson said the ads refer to a lawsuit that was filed against another resident of Ohio named Phil Robinson. Well, of course, there's more than one Phil Robinson in Ohio. There are dozens, two minutes of Googling would have revealed that. So now, without apologizing, the Ohio Republican Party has taken down the ad and Representative Phil Robinson was right to be upset, he had his fill and they didn't have theirs.

[Music]

Melissa Mollen-Dupuis

CH: Quebecers are demanding justice for Joyce. Thousands gathered in person and online for a vigil in Joliette, Quebec, last night to honour Joyce Echaquan. She was a 37 year old, Atikamekw woman, and mother of seven who died in hospital this week. She had arrived with serious stomach pains and pleaded with medical staff not to give her morphine due to heart problems. In her final moments, she began broadcasting from her phone on Facebook Live. One nurse can be heard calling Ms. Echaquan "stupid as hell" in French. Another is heard asking Ms. Echaquan 'what her children would say if they saw her in that state.' One of the nurses in question has been fired. A coroner's inquest has been ordered and the province is doing an administrative probe. But Quebec Premier Francois Legault says he does not believe that Ms. Echaquan's experience is an indication of systemic racism in his province. Melissa Mollen-Dupuis disagrees. She helped organize the vigil for Joyce Echaquan last night in Joliette. She spoke with CBC's Quebec AM this morning.

MELISSA MOLLEN-DUPUIS: The video was erased from her telephone when she was in the hospital. But if there was not have been livestreamed, maybe we'd never known this, maybe we would have never heard about it. So, of course, the community will ask for answers and actions. There is a problematic of systematic racism in Quebec and now I think the discussion cannot be ignored anymore.

ALISON BRUNETTE: A nurse was fired yesterday from her job at that Joliette hospital. What is your reaction to that?

MELISSA MOLLEN-DUPUIS: I think it's the minimum they could have done, because this is like pretty much a flagrant display of discrimination, racism. You cannot want to have that person there. But how come she managed to be there with other nurse and it still happened? So there is need to be a teaching. It's not just for this hospital because it's not the only one that's problematic, but a teaching of like how to treat Indigenous customers. People that are not fluent in French or English, are the first often to be victim of such people because they think that they cannot speak up for themselves because they don't understand French or English, but they do -- it's just that it's not their first language. And it is often a trigger for racist encounter -- less than good service is offered to the patient. So I think also Mr. Legault needs to come forward and support the community in a way he has not done in the last year, and by acknowledging that this is a situation, a systematic problem that's been happening in Canada. So there is still a problem, a system in place that causes that racism and that discrimination.

ALISON BRUNETTE: There will be a coroner's investigation. What do you hope comes from that inquiry?

MELISSA MOLLEN-DUPUIS: Well, at least I hope that this is going to be clearly looked at as a possible crime and not like a medical accident. And I think we are going to have to relate to the coroner to tell us the truth. And I hope that the reaction of the government is not going to be too sweep it all under the rug saying this was a bad nurse. I think we all know in our community that this is not a unique situation and they're not the only nurse. And we have great nurses. But in this case, we need to have these bad nurses taken out of the services of Indigenous communities.

CH: Melissa Mollen-Dupuis is a co-organizer of Idle No More Quebec. She spoke with Alison Brunette on Quebec AM this morning.

[Music]

Part 3: Dual-flush toilets are wasting more water than they save, says U.K. water utility

Botanical Gardens Theft

Guest: Wolfgang Bopp

CH: COVID restrictions caused a sudden upsurge in green thumbs. Nowadays, everyone is a gardener. And now a public garden in New Zealand has fallen victim to the houseplant craze sweeping many parts of the world. Someone stole a rare and Instagram worthy plant called the variegated monstera from the Christchurch Botanic Gardens last weekend. Wolfgang Bopp is the director of the Christchurch Botanic Gardens. We reached him in Christchurch, New Zealand.

HM: Mr. Bopp, what does this variegated monstera look like?

WOLFGANG BOPP: Well, monstera is a large leaved indoor plant. So it's a tropical plant that, you know, often is used within homes. And it's basically, you know, like a serving dish sized leaf or sometimes even bigger. And it often has got slits in it. And this particular one is actually variegated one. So it's more unusual because it has sectors where it doesn't have much chlorophyl. And that makes it more interesting sometimes as a foliage plant.

HM: And you say variegated, what are the tones of colour in the variegation?

WB: I mean, you can have white and yellow. Those are the main variegations you tend to have. But sometimes you can have pink as well.

HM: So how big is this one?

WB: This one, I think it was sort of round about a metre or metre and a half tall, something like that. I mean, yeah, it's around about that, you know. And we had it in a pot in the display so that we can bring it in and out. So if we want to change a plant around in that particular area, you know, we can do that quite easily. But it was actually taken without the pot. So the person or persons that took it actually pulled it out of the pot, and just effectively [inaudible], you know, whatever compost was left on it.

HM: You know, if you look at decorating magazines, this particular plant seems to be pretty popular these days. Why is this particular one so special that someone would want to steal it?

WB: It's unusual. It's more unusual having a variegation than a green plant in general. And then on top of that, you know, within New Zealand, it's harder to import plants because New Zealand's border control are very strict so that we don't bring in any pests and diseases any more than we already have. And so you couldn't just order one, for instance, from another country and sort of say, oh, it arrives two weeks later in the post. And that makes some plants much more unusual. And I guess that monstera is one of those.

HM: Take us back to the theft last weekend. When did you notice the plant had disappeared?

WB: It was on the same day one. One of my team members called me at home and said that, you know, they've heard a report of it and could see that the plant was gone. And that's when we started informing the police, as we do with plant thefts. And then, you know, took it from there. So we know roughly what sort of time it was taken. But, you know, sadly, we weren't able to actually, you know, see the people and sort of demand the plant back. So it walked out, unfortunately, with them.

HM: How do you think the thief managed to pull this off?

WB: The area we've got has got a glass screen over the front. And so you had to actually climb into it. So it wasn't just the question of, you know, say, jumping over a little rail or something like that. You need to go over the top of that glass barrier, which is quite high. So, yeah, you need to be reasonably athletic and really really want to have to do it. It's not something that you could just easily do without intending to.

HM: I appreciate that this is a special plant because of the variegation. But, you know, it's essentially a house plant. Why would someone want to steal that at this particular time?

WB: You're absolutely right. I mean, it is a house plant. House plants have become quite popular in New Zealand and I also know the same in the UK. And I don't know whether it's the same with you in Canada, but I'm hazarding a guess, maybe it is. And so, you know, by becoming more popular, I guess that increases the risk for, you know, the odd person. It's only a few people that do that. But that may well be the reason why it's happened, because they are becoming more popular, you know, on online trading sites. People within New Zealand, you know, are offering them for quite extraordinary sums of money. And that goes with the territory then for some people to say, look -- they feel it's acceptable to, you know, to seal a plant and then maybe sell it on or have it for themselves. I mean, we've always unfortunately, we've always had, you know, occasions of plants being taken. You know, it is sad when it happens because, you know, we look after these plants, we try hard to do our best, and sometimes it takes a long time, you know, to grow it from seed, grow it from cuttings. And, of course, you know, it's part of our plant collection. So some of our plants are quite important, as, you know, rare germplasm and for conservation work and so forth. So you wouldn't want to see any of those being stolen.

HM: So if someone were to try to sell this one, what might it be worth?

WB: My understanding is it can sell, a cutting of that, can sell for a thousand dollars -- being offered for thousand dollars. Yeah. And for a plant potentially, if it's a really good one, it might sell for 3000, 4000, 5000.

HM: Wow. Do you have a message for the person who took your monstera?

WB: We grow the plants for thousands of people to enjoy it. I'm just asking people to respect what we do, respect the plants and respect that it's part of in this case, you know, of our botanic garden and the city of Christchurch. We're the Garden City and, you know, the Botanic Garden is right at the heart of that city.

HM: Mr Bopp, I'd like to wish you the very best in getting the plant back safely. Thank you for talking to us about it.

WB: My pleasure. Thank you all.

CH: Wolfgang Bopp is the director of the Christchurch Botanic Gardens. We reached him in Christchurch, New Zealand.

[Music]

Sarah Anala

CH: Sarah Anala is an Inuk elder, a nurse and a recipient of the Order of Canada. She's also a residential school survivor. Over six years, Ms. Anala attended two residential schools in Newfoundland and Labrador, one in Nain, where she's from and another in Northwest River. As an adult, she has travelled across Atlantic Canada, offering healing workshops to other survivors and to Inuit inmates. That work took her to Happy Valley-Goose Bay, Labrador, where she spoke with the CBC about her own healing and about her residential school experience to mark Orange Shirt Day, which is today -- a day to promote awareness about the harmful impact of residential schools and the legacy they left. Here's some of what Sarah Anala said during that conversation with the CBC is Rebecca Martel.

SARAH ANALA: I think the worst part for me as a little small Inuk, was the bullying and the racism. When you're feeling really, really hurt like a child would, you had no mother to run to, to comfort you, and console you and make things better for you. I'm going to speak from my heart now. I still have a phobia associated with that memory and that experience. We used to be lined up in this little dark corridor like cattle sitting on benches waiting for our turn to go in to his dentistry office there. And I tried to tell him my tooth was not [inaudible] -- it's not dead yet. And he goes, "What would you know? You're only a little Eskimo." So he hauled out my tooth. And to this very day, I have a phobia of dentists. But I've been working on that healing for a very long time. And I got to the point where I could go to the dentist on my own. But before that, my family in New Brunswick would go with me -- one kind of caressed my hand to give me a sense of safety and my eyes would tear up. It seemed like my tears automatically started falling on their own, so terrified that the impact had has stayed with me for a very very long time. But I'm much better with it now. Some of the impacts stay with you for life, but you adjust after a bit to learn how to cope and how to handle the memories.

CH: Inuk elder and residential school survivor Sarah Anala, speaking with the CBC's Rebecca Martel in Happy Valley-Goose Bay, Newfoundland and Labrador.

[Music]

Dual Flush Toilet

Guest: Andrew Tucker

CH: It was an open secret in the plumbing community. But someone has been trying to keep a lid on the truth about the things we keep a lid on. The dual flush toilet is supposed to save water. You pick a flush depending on what you need to flush rather than just unleashing the same torrent of water for everything. Except those two option toilets have one major problem. Andrew Tucker is the water efficiency manager at Thames Water, the UK's largest water utility. We reached him in Sunning Hill, England, just outside of London.

HM: Andrew Tucker, we have all been told that dual flush toilets are the thing to have to stop wasting water. What have you found instead?

ANDREW TUCKER: Well, first of all, it should actually be one of the key things to save water. What we have been discovering over recent years in the UK is that too many of them constantly leak. So it's basically based on the design inside, the materials, and the design itself is just not quite good for long term sustainable use. After a very short period of time, they start failing.

HM: So how much water are we talking about? How much is the wasted say in a day by a leaky dual flush toilet?

AT: It's a really big range. We're seeing anything from 50 liters a day all the way to exceeding 8000 liters a day per toilet. But if you average it out, the most common leak is about 400 liters a day, which in the UK is about the average family of four's total daily consumption.

HM: That's a large amount of water. So you say it's about the mechanism. What's causing this to happen?

AT: Dual flush is typical a mechanical valve. So the seal is a rubber seal that sits underneath the water. So if it fails with a little piece of grit or something that's obstructing the seal or a lot of times we're finding the rubber itself deteriorates very very quickly. Then there's no redundancy, there's no safety factor built into it and water continually flows out. And that's something that we're seeing more and more every year with more dual flush toilets being put into older homes through refurbishment or new homes being built.

HM: But you said that part of the rubber starts to deteriorate quickly. And how quickly are we talking about before, say, a new toilet starts leaking?

AT: We are seeing toilets within one to two years after being put in as brand new.

HM: And these are not necessarily cheap toilets, right?

AT: No, not at all. They can be cheap toilets and they can be the most expensive toilets. But it comes back to the fundamental of the poor design itself. The materials inside the toilet are not really conducive to the expensive exterior of the toilet. So when those two things come together on a mass market, you've got quite a considerable problem that, you know, we're trying to solve here.

HM: Is there any way for a home owner to detect whether their toilet is indeed leaking?

AT: Yeah, it's a really simple one. If you just look at the bowl itself, sometimes the water as it's coming down on the inside of the bowl, you'll see the ripple in the water there. If you're seeing a tiny ripple, that could be one 200 liters a day, 400 liters, it is fairly obvious. And we're seeing many thousands of liters a day, it's pretty obvious. And you can genuinely hear it from outside the room.

HM: This must also be reflected in people's water bills.

AT: It is. So if you're paying by the metre, the average leak of 400 liters a day over here is pretty close to doubling that household's annual bill.

HM: So replacing the toilet would not necessarily be a ridiculous expense.

AT: Well, that's the problem itself, because the devices on the market are these poor designed or poor quality products. So you're replacing like for like. So what you can do is do some research to find one that gets better reviews. We are trying to take that a step further here and working with the industry, working with manufacturers to engineer this problem out of existence. But we've got a long way to go yet.

HM: Are people just buying these because they're what's available or are they making a conscious effort to try to do an environmentally good thing?

AT: It's just the most common product on the market. We've had a regulation change over hear nearly 20 years ago, which capped or limited the amount of water per flush. The dual flush is the obvious thing that should be saving water. And whether you're buying something online or going into a DIY shop to get the toilet, that's the most common type of product you're buying. And these products are failing all too quickly and too easily.

HM: The two different buttons on these toilets, one for like a low flush, one for a more powerful flush. I mean, there could perhaps be confusing to people, is that contributing in any way to the wastage of water?

AT: It is contributing. The dual flush buttons over time become more esthetically pleasing, I guess. And they've moved a little bit towards form over function. In fact, we've been testing this through social media and also customer research. And just after a few very very simple questions, over 50 per percent of our customer base didn't really know which button to push. So therefore, you're not maximizing the potential savings that you should be getting from using the lower flush.

HM: Is there a particular type of toilet that would be the most efficient in terms of not leaking?

AT: If you can find a toilet that has a syphoning valve, a siphon toilet, that's the inside of the system that's almost leakproof, provides an air gap in between the body of water and the outlet valve. If you can't find that, then the drop valve is the most common type, look for one with a very thick silicon seal as opposed to rubber. The silicon tends to last a lot longer.

HM: Is this one of those things where older is better? You know, the old fridges didn't give out the way the new ones do that sort of thing.

AT: It shouldn't be, but potentially it's at the moment with more of these poor performing toilets on the market. If we can crack this issue than the dual flush toilet really has a bright future, because if you look back in time, historically, the single flush toilets would have used 10, 15, 20 plus liters every flush, and that's just unnecessary. So we need to fix this problem and just get back to basics and be as sustainable as possible.

HM: What made you start looking into the efficiency of dual flush toilets in the first place?

AT: Oh, that's a good question. A couple of reasons. One, we had a lot of customers inquiring about it and then really just leave work and go home and then many of us at home were seeing it on our own bathrooms. And we instigated UK's largest water efficiency program. And we've been inside over 300,000 households and many tens of thousands of businesses installing water saving devices, providing water saving advice, on behaviour change. And also while we're there fixing leaky loos and dripping taps, and we've built up a huge evidence base. Now that we've got that evidence base, we're going public with it to try and fix the agenda.

HM: So you're a water efficiency manager, who is an expert on toilets?

AT: By accident really. If this is what it takes and this is what it takes.

HM: Thank you so much, Mr. Tucker.

AT: My pleasure. Thanks for having me on.

CH: Andrew Tucker is the water efficiency manager at Thames Water and toilet expert. We've reached him in Sunningdale, England, which is roughly 4555 standard toilets lined up side by side southeast of Redding. And you can find more on the story on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

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September 30, 2020 Episode Transcript

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