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The AIH Transcript for September 25, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: The scene of more crimes. Police in Paris investigate a potential terror link after a knife attack outside the building where 12 people were murdered in the Charlie Hebdo massacre.

CH: Cast away. After getting a cancer diagnosis on a remote island in the South Atlantic during the pandemic, a Canadian family on a sailing trip struggles to get back home.

CO: Many happy returns. This week's throne speech suggested the government will start automatically filing taxes for some Canadians, leading our guests to ask, what took you so long?

CH: Changing their tune. According to ecologists, sparrows around San Francisco sounded different during the COVID restrictions. And by different, they mean sexier.

CO: Their lack of horror, the lack of horror. A Halloween loving Newfoundlander tries to adjust to the news that her annual haunted house will give up the ghost this year.

CH: And you're in charge? In your dreams. Oh, sorry, I misread that. I meant you're in charge in your dreams -- after an M.I.T. study that may have cracked the secret of lucid dreaming. As It Happens. The Friday Edition. Radio that's a sleeper hit.

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Part 1: Paris Knife Attack

Paris Knife Attack

Guest: Lisa Louis

CH: Police in Paris say they have two men in custody tonight after a knife attack that left two people seriously injured. The attack took place outside the site of the 2015 massacre at the satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo. The magazine office has since moved. But today's attack took place as 14 people were being tried in connection to those 2015 killings. Lisa Louis is Deutsche Welle's Paris correspondent. We reached her in the French capital.

CO: Lisa, you have been to the scene of today's attack. What have you been able to learn about what happened?

LISA LOUIS: Well, apparently, a man attacked two people today at about midday local time. He had a chopping knife in his hand and he attacked two people, a man and a woman, who was standing in the street having a cigarette. These people work for a production company that is based in the same building as the former newsroom of the Charlie Hebdo satirical magazine. That magazine was attacked in January 2015 by terrorists and several people were killed at the time.

CO: And the people who were attacked. What has happened with them?

LL: They were brought to hospital, they are severely injured, but apparently that life is no longer in danger. I understand they are at two different hospitals. We haven't heard anything about their current status. But it seems that really they're getting better.

CO: Have we been able to speak with people who saw the attack?

LL: I've heard several people talk about the attack and they were saying that it was quite horrendous. That this man, he was now arrested by the police. He attacked these two people and then several people in the street saw him and chased after him and he ran away. The police then later said that they arrested first one person, then another person. So two people, one of these two people is believed to be the attacker and another one possibly knew the attacker. About the attacker, we now know -- we have heard, at least from police sources, that it was apparently an 18 year old man who has been in France for three years, didn't have papers on him, he is believed to be Afghan.

CO: The prime minister of France has made a statement saying that their government restates his unwavering attachment to freedom of the press, the fight against terrorism, and can assure the nation they are fully mobilized. Does that suggest that the government believes or has been told that this is a terrorist attack?

LL: Well, the interior minister, Gerald Darmanin, he was just on French news and he said that he believed that this was indeed an Islamic terror attack. And, you know, when you look at where it happened and also the timing of this, because, you know, right now and for a few weeks now, there's the court case that has been taking place here in Paris on the suspected helpers of the attackers of the January 2015 attacks. So it does look like this might not be a coincidence, really.

CO: Let's just remind people in Canada what happened there: 12 people were killed, a number of them editorial staff of Charlie Hebdo. Is that right?

LL: Yes, absolutely. So there were two attackers, Said, and the brother Cherif, who went to the newsroom in January 2015 and then shot around, they actually attacked the magazine because it had published a few years earlier caricatures, cartoons, of the Prophet Mohammed -- and they thought that they were taking revenge for this publication. They shot several people there. Then they left and there was a pursuit. The police went after them. And then another person, Amedy Couliably, he took hostages at a supermarket, a Jewish supermarket, and he was killed at the supermarket. The two brothers were on the run for a little while and were shortly after, I think two days later, killed by police when they were hiding in a printing shop.

CO: Charlie Hebdo recently republished those cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed. Why is that?

LL: Absolutely. I talked to the editor of Charlie Hebdo actually before the court case started, and he said we decided to do this because in all this time, since 2015 when the attack happened, we thought that we only publish if there were a reason -- and now they very strongly felt with the opening of this court case that there was a reason, that they wanted to make a statement. And what they wrote above that was "Tout cac, pour ca" which means all this for this. So basically, has it really been worth it? And this is something very important, very profound for them. They are saying, you know, this is our freedom of speech and it's a very French definition of this as well. They're mocking everybody. They have the right to laugh about everybody and everything. That's at least what they say. You know they've been mocking any religion: Islam, they've been mocking the pope, they've been booking Buddhism. And this is just how they see freedom of speech. And they say, we want to preserve this and we want to remind people that just because of these cartoons that doesn't actually justify killing people.

CO: Is there any reason to believe or are there enough to know whether this attack today is related to Charlie Hebdo and the republishing of those cartoons?

LL: We don't have any confirmation of that yet. It just looks very suspicious. And normally in France, you've got the prosecutor who at one point will hold a press conference, and that's the time when he goes into more detail about what the investigators have been finding out. So that might happen tomorrow or on Sunday.

CO: It was an extraordinary time in Paris when these attacks happened. And France itself in the past five years, they've been through a lot -- people in Paris have been through a lot. How are they responding to this today?

LL: Well, everybody who's been talking today has been saying, especially the people who live in that area say it's like five years back -- it's horrible. It's bringing all these horrible memories back in. You know, just remember that the attacks in January 2015 were the first attacks of a row of several attacks that followed, especially the ones in November 2015 where terrorists attacked the Bataclan music hall and several cafes and terraces. And France is still, in a way, deeply traumatized, obviously to various degrees. It's very much in the minds of everybody that there is still a threat of renewed terror. The police are now saying, I've been talking to somebody who is part of the investigation unit and he's told me that what's now more the case is apparently that they're looking for lone wolves and not for these huge terror plots that could be organized by several people. But the terror threat is still very much present here.

CO: We'll leave it there. Lisa thank you.

LL: Thank you very much.

CH: Lisa Louis is Deutsche Welle's Paris correspondent. We reached her in Paris.

[Music]

Simple Tax Return

Guest: Lindsay Tedds

CH: It was a single sentence in Wednesday's throne speech, and the federal government hasn't elaborated on it since then. But for Canadians who dread tax season, meaning Canadians, it will more than likely pique some interest. Governor General Julie Payette said the government will also work to introduce free automatic tax filing for simple returns to ensure citizens receive the benefits they need. So instead of filing your own taxes, which is how it works in Canada, the government appears to be offering to do it automatically for some Canadians. Lindsay Tedds is a tax policy expert and an associate professor of economics at the University of Calgary. We reached her in Calgary.

CO: Lindsay it went by so quick that many people may have missed it. But what did you think when you heard the words free automatic tax filing in this week's throne speech?

LINDSAY TEDDS: Well, I was ecstatic. I jumped up and gave a cheer of hooray. One of the reasons why it's so important that we shift the onus of tax filing from individuals to CRA is because we have intertwined so many benefits that individuals deserve to get in our tax system that we absolutely have to make this change.

CO: And so how many people actually don't file taxes?

LT: Yeah. So when we look at it just, you know, nationally, it's only about 12 to 13 percent, but it varies province to province. In fact, Alberta, where I am, has one of the highest non-filing rates of almost 16 percent. But then when you look at the characteristics of individuals, you know, only about a third of social assistance recipients, they're not filing their taxes. About 40 percent of First Nations kids on reserves, their parents aren't getting the Canada child benefit so we know they're not filing their taxes. And then, you know, people experiencing homelessness, about 97 percent of them are not filing their taxes.

CO: And what's in it for them if they do file their taxes?

LT: The big benefit here is the number of refundable tax credits that we have in our system that are actually designed to help with affordability. You have the Canada child benefit, the GST/HST tax credit, the Canada Worker Benefit, and the Climate Action Initiative. Those are all really important income transfers to individuals to help with affordability.

CO: Is there a kind of a rough dollar amount you can put on a family that is not filing the taxes that would get benefits if they did?

LT: Well, so you can take, for example, a family of three in Alberta if they're not filing their taxes, doesn't matter what income level they are, they're missing out on 888 dollars in the climate action initiative for example. If one of their family members is under the age of six and they're in low income, they could be losing out on almost 7,000 dollars a year in the Canada child benefit. So it really depends on each of the individual circumstances but it can be quite substantial.

CO: A lot of people don't file their taxes because maybe they don't want to be on the radar, they also find it complicated, they don't understand if it's a benefit to them -- and a lot of us, the paperwork. So what is it the government is going to do that would make it possible for these people to file without having to do all that?

LT: Well, what we're looking at is for a lot of individuals, CRA actually already knows everything about their situation, to know what their taxes owing and the benefits that they are eligible for. And that's because we have a system called third party reporting, right. If you're an employee, you get a T4 at the end of the calendar year to use to file your taxes, if you have investment income, you've got a T5 and so on and so forth. So really all we're doing is instead of CRA sitting behind their doors, holding close to their chest, what they know about you and seeing whether or not you reveal the same information -- this is the kind of system where CRA takes all that information that they know, they put it into the tax form, they send it to you and say, is this accurate? And if it's not accurate, you simply make the corrections and you send it back to them.

CO: And if it is accurate you just say, yes, check that box -- and then what happens?

LT: You can either say yes or if you don't respond at all, you have it is deemed to consent and then you automatically get all of the benefits that you are eligible for, like the ones that we just talked about.

CO: Just one area you said -- homeless people are hugely missing out on this. But do you have to have an address in order to take advantage of this?

LT: No. But a lot of the individuals who are experiencing homelessness actually do have an address based off the shelter that they are using the most.

CO: Okay this sounds progressive on part of the throne speech. But Canada is behind, right? There's other countries that have been doing this for some time.

LT: Canada and the U.S. are the laggards in this area. A lot of countries have moved. Estonia is like though the world leader in digitizing access to benefits, including this kind of tax system. But Denmark hasn't. The U.K. has it. Spain has it. It's not an unusual system in a lot of parts of the world. Just in North America our tax industry has been a very heavy lobbyist, both CIA and the IRS.

CO: Okay. Another dollar amount it: can you possibly estimate how much money might go out the door from Ottawa if people were filing? I mean, how much money is actually out there that's not being claimed by people?

LT: Yeah. So that one we actually don't have a dollar figure for. But it's not just about money going out because this is the first step of modernizing the tax system. And if we pair this with expanding on the kinds of income that is reported to CRA as part of this third party reporting system, we're actually going to find income that we didn't know actually existed. And we're able to increase our tax revenues. So there's a lot going on here. This is just the first step. But we can actually be moving towards a way to also tax income that is currently being hidden.

CO: Oh, so you mean the billions and billions of dollars that Canadians have stored off-shore in accounts that they don't pay taxes on -- something like that?

LT: Well, that would require a bigger bigger change to the tax system. But no. Part of being able to expand in on this automatic filing would be to expand the kinds of income that are subject to third party reporting -- and in particular, self-employment income. And so if we can get all forms of income such that they are subject to third party reporting and CRA knows everything, then we're not only expanding the benefits that people are able to claim, but also the income that is subject to taxation.

CO: All right. Well I'm glad that you're able to take that single sentence and make it into something that we understand that it is significant. [Chuckles] Okay well done Lindsay. Thank you.

LT: Well, thank you very much.

CH: Lindsay Tedds is a tax policy expert and an associate professor of economics at the University of Calgary.

[Music]

Newfoundland/Labrador Halloween Rules

Guest: Hilary Turner-Parsons

CH: The good news for people in Newfoundland and Labrador is that Halloween is going ahead. The bad news is that the rules have changed and there are a lot more of them. Today, the province issued a long list of rules to ensure a safe holiday. Things like keeping your distance, putting up a sign on your door if you can't give out treats, and not entering the homes of those outside your bubble. And that last rule will make Halloween quite different this year for Hilary Turner-Parsons. We reached her in Eastport, Newfoundland and Labrador.

CO: Hilary, what is it that you like so much about decorating for Halloween?

HILARY TURNER-PARSONS: So I love the way the kids are so surprised and they love the spooky aspect of things. So I do like the way the kids react in the haunted house. And it also brings the community closer together. So I like the way that the community comes and enjoys the haunted house, and even weeks before, they're always asking me, are you doing your haunted house? And they look forward to it, right. So it's good to know. But I do love the spooky aspect of the season for sure. And I love the Halloween season.

CO: Okay, so you mentioned the haunted house, which is your house, right? So what have you in the past, let's say last year, what did you do to make your house haunted?

HILARY TURNER-PARSONS: So what I do is I pretty much transform my house from head to toe inside. Each room has a different theme -- from my kitchen to my bathroom, my laundry room. They all have a different Halloween scene to them. So last year, my kitchen was a butcher shop. My laundry room was a spooky, blasted area that kind of had jump scares by volunteers and things like that. But yeah, my entire house is transformed and has a different haunted aspect to it.

CO: Just one of the rooms -- describe what the bathroom looked like last year.

HILARY TURNER-PARSONS: So the bathroom -- I have a pretty much entirely white bathroom, so I just transform it into what I'll call a mess of monsters and horror. I'll have a shower curtain that is all I'll say bloody. But it's turned into a pretty scary room, I have to say.

CO: How long do you plan for this? What goes into creating it?

HILARY TURNER-PARSONS: This is at least -- for me to start decorating, I usually start at the beginning of September. Before that I kind of go into planning mode where I look for deals and I look for different decorations that I could use in my haunted house. I have a general rule every year, buy one new big item. And then I'll add to my collection.

CO: Okay. I want to ask you about those moments. But basically you're inviting in the whole neighbourhood, the whole community, is it?

HILARY TURNER-PARSONS: I do. I invite the whole community to come in and visit and have a scare.

CO: What are some of the big attractions, the centrepieces of your haunted house?

HILARY TURNER-PARSONS: There are a few. I do have quite a few animatronics that I do bring into my home. One of the big ones is almost eight feet -- it's a huge, I'll say, monster type looking thing that has a huge pumpkin and he kind of has this deep, scary voice where he talks to people that come in. It's a super creepy piece, but it's a fan favourite. People come in and want to take a picture with it. It's a big one. I also have a nice coffin that a colleague of mine made. It's a life sized coffin. And he took old pieces of wood and he built it and gave it to me. And it's beautiful in the creepiest way possible [chuckles] and it's definitely a fan favourite as well. But each room has their own sort of, I'll say, centrepiece to it that people love and either can't wait to take a picture with it or keep coming back to hear it creep them out.

CO: Didn't you have a Chucky doll at one point?

HILARY TURNER-PARSONS: I do have a few dolls in the collection here. Some of them move and have sensors so that they'll follow you, which are the creepiest ones. And some like you have to pick off and they say creepy things. So there's a few dolls for sure.

CO: How do the kids respond when they go through these rooms?

HILARY TURNER-PARSONS: They love it. They love it. I was so surprised. Some kids won't come in, which is fine. They still get a treat. They don't need to come through. But others, I've never heard anyone complain. They love it and I love doing it for them. Like I love seeing the expression on their faces when they get the treat and they go through the haunted house. Yeah, it's definitely a favourite of mine to see their faces.

CO: Okay. You know, the government of Newfoundland and Labrador has put out guidelines for Halloween this year. What's going to happen to your haunted house?

HILARY TURNER-PARSONS: So this year is going to be completely different for me. It is sad. I have been disappointed with it. But in terms of safety for the people that come through, safety for my family, safety for all the trick or treaters and my volunteers, because I do have a lot of volunteers that help me -- I've decided that the haunted inside is not going to take place this year. I just can't guarantee the disinfecting. I know that the Newfoundland government did say that they do recommend frequent disinfecting with commonly touched places, and I can't guarantee that in my home, especially with so many people coming through. And I also can't guarantee with numbers how many numbers I would have and things like that. For me, the inside aspect is not going to happen this year. I am going to try to do it outside as much as possible. But in Newfoundland and Labrador, it is very weather dependent. And a lot of my pieces can't get wet. So it all depends. If it's a clear night, I will have a full blown display outside -- it'll be amazing. But if the weather is bad, it will just be as much as I can do without compromising my pieces.

CO: Your province has had success with suppressing those COVID-19 numbers. And it actually probably has the strictest rules in Canada for how things are conducted. So that has, I guess, been the reason why the government even thinks it's possible to go ahead with Halloween, right?

HILARY TURNER-PARSONS: Yes, I would think so, yeah. And I do think that it will work with those rules and regulations. I mean, like we had been doing from the beginning, physical distance thing is very important, ensuring that we stay within our bubbles and things like that. And I think Halloween can work that way with those regulations in place.

CO: Are the kids going to be able to get treats?

HILARY TURNER-PARSONS: Yes. So I'll still be giving out treats. I do have an overhang, so there will be a distance between me and the kids. So I think that it should be no problem. I also have different items that I can put outside that can sense the kids coming and make noise. So I'll know that they're there and ensure they're six feet and they'll still get their treats and have a good night.

CO: Well, Hilary, I wish you a happy and very scary Halloween.

HILARY TURNER-PARSONS: Thank you very much. Thank you very much for your time.

CH: Hilary Turner-Parsons usually transforms her home into a haunted house at Halloween, but not this year. She was in Eastport, Newfoundland and Labrador.

[Music]

Dreams

CH: What if I told you, you could control your dreams. And never again dream you're at Swiss Chalet, but it's like not Swiss Chalet and your grade one teacher who is also a centaur but is also the actor Allison Janney, laughs at you because you're only wearing a pair of roller blades -- just for a random example. Well, if that was your recurring nightmare, you would listen closely as I explain a recent study at M.I.T.. Anything to prevent the Allison Janney dream again is what you would think to yourself. The researchers asked subjects to record messages into an app. The messages were: remember to think of a tree, and remember to observe your thoughts. Then the subjects went to sleep, hooked up to a sleep tracker. When the tracker detected that they were in the hypnagogia phase, the part where you're just dozing off, the tracker told the app and the app played the messages about trees and observing thoughts. Afterwards, two thirds of the subjects said they'd dreamed of trees in some form. Which proves that by interrupting hypnagogic before REM sleep, the researchers had enabled lucid dreaming. And they did it using relatively simple technology. They call it targeted dream incubation, and it may help those of us -- I mean, those of you with recurring nightmares about centaurs who are Allison Janney to tame your sleeping mind. And let's hope it works beyond our wildest dreams.

[Music]

Part 2: A Canadian couple was sailing the world when the pandemic hit, and she was diagnosed with cancer

Canadian Sailing Saga

Guest: Mike Large

CH: This past February, Celeste Large left Ontario and flew to Cape Town, South Africa, for a holiday. She planned to meet her mom and dad for a sailing trip. She thought she'd be gone for a few months. But more than six months later, Ms. Large still isn't home. She and her parents were visiting a remote island in the South Atlantic when her mother got a cancer diagnosis. And with the COVID-19 pandemic restricting travel and slamming shut borders, it was hard to know when Celeste Large would get home to Canada. Mike Large is Ms. Large's husband. We reached him in Georgetown, Ontario.

CO: Mike, just to start off, where is your wife right now?

MIKE LARGE: Right now, she's in the middle of the South Atlantic Ocean. She left a small island called St. Helena 13 days ago.

CO: And she's headed for home?

ML: She's headed for -- originally, it was supposed to be Trinidad. But Trinidad is completely shut down. So she's actually heading to Grenada.

CO: This was not the plan when she left to join her parents, was it?

ML: No. So she flew into Cape Town, South Africa, on February 20. And then she was going to do the very last crossing with her parents towards South America and Trinidad.

CO: When you say the very last crossing, it's a huge story worthy of a movie. But her parents have been on this extraordinary adventure for a couple of decades now, travelling around the world on their boat, right?

ML: They have. They left Ontario in 1998 on a 40 foot steel boat. They sold their house in Cambridge and basically gave all of their belongings and possessions to their two daughters. And they left for the Caribbean.

CO: Celeste, your wife, she had gone over to join this last leg of this extraordinary adventure of her parents. What happened?

ML: Shortly after arriving in Africa, they were having a great time. They spent some time in Cape Town, spent some time in Namibia. But that's kind of when COVID hit. So they were pretty much told that if they didn't leave, the borders would be getting shut down, and then they would be stuck in Africa. So they left on the boat towards St. Helena where they messaged ahead to make sure that they would be accepted. They were told the out there wouldn't be an issue, that they would be accepted with open arms in St. Helena. And after about a two plus week journey to St. Helena on the boat, they were told upon arrival that COVID had gotten worse, not on the island, but in the rest of the world, and they would have to quarantine themselves on the boat for an extra two weeks, even though that they were just on the ocean, basically quarantining themselves there.

CO: We know that at the time that the world was in upheaval and that all kinds of things are being slowed and stopped. But at least they were in a lovely place, St. Helena. But then a really horrible development came in the story that your mother in law, Celeste's mother, started to feel very sick. What was going on with her?

ML: After they arrived they got out of quarantine on April 19th, I think it was. Mid May she started feeling weak. At first they thought it was just low iron. She was out of breath around I think it was like May 22nd. They knew that she had to go to hospital, that they thought there was something wrong. That's when they started doing some blood work and they found leukemia at first. Later on, they actually did a bone marrow sample, they did an extraction, and because it's a small little island they actually had to send the bone marrow to South Africa on a ship, and then they had to wait for the results. And it basically came back after it was plasma cell leukemia, which is a very rare form of blood cancer.

CO: This is the worst news that she could have received about the diagnosis, isn't it?

ML: Oh, it was horrible. Being stuck on this island and COVID, they couldn't go anywhere, it was terrible news.

CO: From the story I read, they had been in so many different places and were no strangers to dealing with health care systems in other countries. Was she able to get any assistance, any healthcare help while she was in St. Helena?

ML: The hospital in St. Helena, it being such a small island, they were absolutely amazing. Like they did as much as they could on the island. Because she had such a rare form of blood, they were putting the word out there to get blood because they needed fresh blood for her to get her blood transfusions. And they did as much as they could on the island. But it came down to it that she needed to come home back to Canada.

CO: She was getting blood transfusions. Local people were were donating blood and of course your wife was there who has the same blood type, so she was able to help with those transfusions.

ML: Yeah. My wife is a pretty amazing person. So she gave her blood as well.

CO: And then how was she able to get back then?

ML: Right away when we knew something was up, Celeste being on this island with horrible communication on the island, like for cell service, any landlines, it's horrible. So she did as much as she could. She was pretty much on the phone during the night because of the time change. She spent hours and hours on the phone with the insurance company trying to get her evacuated back home as soon as possible. The insurance company wanted to send her to Johannesburg. And the acting position on St. Helena and in Johannesburg were like, this isn't an adequate care for her, she needs to go home. So after weeks and weeks of kind of going back and forth with the insurance company, between Celeste's, myself, my sister-in-law who was in B.C. at the time, we all came together and we got the money together to have her evacuated back to Canada.

CO: Okay, so she's been able to get four cycles of chemotherapy treatment. She's getting help. But meanwhile, why didn't your wife come back with her?

ML: These little medevac Learjet planes are so small -- so even at first, they weren't even going to bring my father-in-law back. It was just going to be my mother-in-law. Celeste won't take no for an answer. So she fought tooth and nail and she got my father-in-law on the plane as well. So at least we have both of them here. My mother-in-law and my father-in-law are both living with me here now. I'm taking care of them. Celeste had to stay behind also to get the boat back.

CO: So Celeste is completing that last leg of the boat's journey, but not with her parents. Does she have a crew or what happened there?

ML: We hired a guy that was actually stuck on the island as well. He's a South African guy. He's a captain. He's got many certificates. He's an amazing person. He's become really good friends with Celeste on the island. He's taking care of her. So he wants to get to the Caribbean for work as well. So it's actually been convenient that he's been able to jump onboard on the boat and sail back with Celeste.

CO: Okay, so she's on her way back. When was last time you saw your wife?

ML: Oh my God. I was trying to think of that today. So she left February 23rd, it's been 215 days as of today.

CO: When do you think you'll be able to reunite with your wife?

ML: We are hoping that if all goes well, it's going to be probably the end of October or beginning of November.

CO: Okay. Meanwhile, how's your mother-in-law?

ML: Honestly, like, she's amazing. The doctors are blown away by how she's reacted to the treatment. And that was the one thing why we needed to get her home here. The doctors here in Ontario have done an amazing job. She's actually in having surgery to have an arthrosis line put into an artery into her chest today. So she's in the hospital today. But she's an incredible woman. Like, she's definitely an inspiration to me.

CO: Mike it is an extraordinary story. And there's a bigger one to be told about this trip they've been on for all these years. So I appreciate you telling us this part. And I really hope everything works out.

ML: We know it'll work out.

CO: Take care.

ML: Thank you very much.

CH: Mike Large's wife, Celeste Large, hasn't been home in over half a year since she went to join her parents for a sailing trip in February. We reached Mr. Large in Georgetown, Ontario.

[Music]

Bianca Austin

CH: Breonna Taylor's mother is too angry to speak. Today, her family talked to reporters responding to the news that Kentucky's attorney general will not bring charges against the officers who shot Ms. Taylor. As we told you earlier this week, a grand jury in Louisville indicted one former police officer for wanton endangerment for shooting into Breonna Taylor's neighbour's apartment. Her mother, Tamika Palmer, wrote to Attorney General Daniel Cameron. Bianca Austin, Breonna's aunt, read that message today.

BIANCA AUSTIN: I was reassured Wednesday of why I have no faith in the legal system and the police and the law that are not made to protect those Black and Brown people. But when I speak on it, I'm considered an angry Black woman. But know this, I am an angry Black woman. I am not angry for the reasons that you would like me to be. But angry because our Black women keep dying at the hands of police officers and Black men. Angry because our children are dying at the hands of police officers. And I'm angry because this nation is learning that our Black women dying at the hands of police officers, and this is not okay. You can take the dog out of the fight, but you can't take the fight out of the dog. For lack of better term, bark-bark for being the dog still standing to fight. I knew Cameron would never do his job. But what I do know is that him and countless others will go to bed sleeping with Breonna's face, still hearing her say her name. Cameron alone didn't fail her. But it ended with a lack of investigation failed her. The officer who told a lie to obtain the search warrant failed her. The judge who signed the search warrant failed her. The terrorists who broke down her door failed her. The system as a whole has failed her. You didn't just rob me and my family, you robbed the world of a queen -- a queen willing to do a job that most of us could never stomach to do, a queen willing to build up anyone around her, a queen who was starting to pave her path. I hope you never have to know the pain of knowing your child is in need and help and you're not able to hear them. I hope you never know the pain of your child being murdered, 191 days in a row. Tamika Palmer.

CH: That was Breonna Taylor's aunt, Bianca Austin. Ms. Taylor's death in March led to months of protests which escalated this week. On Wednesday, we spoke with Kentucky State Representative Attica Scott, who had been out protesting. Last night, Ms. Scott was arrested and charged with felony rioting. She's been released and vows to head out again to protest.

[Music]

Sparrow Song Study

Guest: Liz Derryberry

CH: During the coronavirus restrictions in San Francisco this spring, the city sounded a lot quieter. Which meant people no longer had to shout over street noise to be heard. And neither did white-crowned sparrows. With the reduced racket, they were able to express themselves differently and better. This revelation was published in the latest edition of the journal Science. Liz Derryberry is the coauthor of the study. She's a behavioural ecologist at the University of Tennessee. We reached her in Knoxville.

CO: Liz, as I'm sure you've heard, lots of people have been remarking that they were hearing more birds singing different tunes since this pandemic. Did you start to suspect the same thing?

LIZ DERRYBERRY: I did. And in fact, though it took a visual to make me suspect it. I was on social media and I saw a picture of the Golden Gate Bridge with coyotes crossing it, and I was shocked. [Chuckles] There was no traffic and it made me realize it must be really quiet.

CO: And so how did you go about testing that with the birds?

LD: So we had been working for a while in the city, in San Francisco. My colleagues, David Luther and Jenny Phillips, who are also coauthors on paper. And we had recorded them for almost a decade looking at how their song is affected by noise pollution. And we were kind of in the right place at the right time because we had those samples we were able to go out and rerecord during the lockdown and have a paired comparison to do this work.

CO: All right. Since it is radio, we could actually take advantage of this. And we have some sound that you recorded of -- what kind of birds are these?

LD: White-crowned sparrows.

CO: So it's white-crowned sparrow song before the shutdown. So here is the sound. [City and white-crowned sparrow sounds] We can kind of hear it. [Chuckles] You can hear the city. All right, let's just play the sparrow song during the shutdown. [Clear white-crowned sparrow sound] That is so lovely.

LD: I agree. I love their song.

CO: It is so much more complex the second time. Tell us about that.

LD: Yeah. So what's interesting is if you think about it, it's kind of like going to a cocktail party where as people arrive and it gets louder, you also get louder and you probably stop talking about philosophy and you have more small talk. And then as the party winds down and people go home, you get quieter again, right? You don't keep yelling and you maybe have your sort of deeper conversations at that point. Well, it's the same thing for the birds. So when it's really loud, they're singing loudly, they are basically shouting to make themselves heard, but the quality of their songs is not as good. When it got quiet during the lockdown, they were able to drop the volume of their songs and contain more information in it. We actually found that they were higher performance, which we know females and males both pay attention to.

CO: What are they communicating that is different?

LD: So they are communicating that the territory is theirs. I like to say they're singing "This is mine, mine, mine." [Chuckles] And they're also trying to attract females, so saying, you know, I'm a great mate. And so we know that they're communicating that both before the lockdown and during it. So the function hasn't changed, but they've got much better at signaling, they're able to signal their quality better during the quiet of a lockdown.

CO: So it's sexier?

LD: Yes it is. It is sexier. [Laughter]

CO: The other thing about it is that in the first recording we heard the background noise, the traffic noise was so loud -- but in the second one, you can hear the answer, can't you? Which is so lovely. When you're in the country, you can hear one bird sing and another one respond. How much easier is it for birds to actually communicate now?

LD: Exactly. That's exactly what's happening. And you can hear that counter-singing is what we call it. And so it means that their songs can now transmit twice the distances before. So effectively say this is a person listening to them, if you could just detect the birds singing about five metres from you, during the lockdown you could now detect them 10 metres away. So that communication distance is doubled, which is great for the birds and I think great for us too.

CO: We've done some stories about the changes of animal behaviour since the lockdown. One of my favourites is these mountain sheep [chuckles] who came down off the mountain and went into villages to munch on the hedges. Lots of creatures taking back habitats. As you said, coyotes the Golden Gate Bridge. How quickly have these animals said, woah, we should take advantage of this?

LD: Remarkably quickly. And I know there's a bunch of scientists out there right now that are studying this movement and really sort of quantifying how quickly and how much animals are changing their behaviour in response to humans. And I think, you know, with our work, it's kind of parallel. So with movement, we see humans move other landscape and animals move. And here with sound, we're seeing that when humans move out of the soundscape, the birds are moving in.

CO: We just recently did a story about orcas in the Strait of Gibraltar that have been attacking boats that are coming through. And one of the theories that we heard was that during the lockdown, during the shutdown, it was quieter for the first time. The orcas were able to actually communicate and thrive a bit during that time. And perhaps they're attacking the boats because the noise is coming back, that they're so angry about that. That's untested theory. But how do you think animals are going to respond once we start to encroach on their space again?

LD: That's a great question. And I don't think we're going to have a situation like Hitchcock's The Birds here. [Chuckles] But I do think that their songs will change. And we'll be out there next year recording to see. I'm curious to find out: do noise levels go up to the same degree that they were before the shutdown? And do bird songs kind of go back to being, you know, less sexy? And we don't know. I think that's going to be really interesting to find out.

CO: All right. We'll check back Liz. Thanks so much.

LD: Okay. Thank you.

CH: Liz Derryberry is a behavioural ecologist at the University of Tennessee. She's the coauthor of a new study about how white-crowned sparrows sounds changed in the San Francisco area because of the pandemic. You can see and hear more about this story on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Not just a trucker

CH: Certain songs get richer the more you learn about them. And the same goes for some stories on this show, like last week when Carol spoke with musician Bob Wiseman about being reunited with his hand painted guitar. It was stolen years ago. He thought he'd never see it again. And then a trucker named Bill realized he'd bought that guitar in a pawnshop. So the two met, and Bill returned the one of a kind instrument. We thought that was all there was to it. And then we heard from Lance Anderson, who wanted us to know more about his friend, Bill Summerton. Mr. Anderson wrote: "Bill was one of the seminal musicians in Ottawa's rock scene of the 60s and 70s. To hear him referred to as only a truck driver missed one of the real reasons he felt strongly about returning the guitar. My late brother Rod Anderson, drummer, played with Bill, bassist, for many years -- originally as 'The Unit Five.' They were considered one of Ottawa's top bands. They were asked to open for The Animals at the infamous Coliseum show that turned into a riot when The Animals refused to play until they saw their money. After The Unit Five broke up, Bill and Rod became the rhythm section for the After Hours show where one night they played 'Back in the USSR' to George Harrison in the audience. Bill turned to long haul trucking to pay the bills. I thought it was unfortunate for the CBC to call him a trucker on AIH when his real story is so much greater. I'm sure his own feelings about his instruments led him to search Bob out." That note is from Lance Anderson, a producer songwriter in Orillia, Ontario.

[Music]

Part 3: North Korea Apology

North Korea Apology

Guest: Sung-Yoon Lee

CH: Kim Jong-un is not known for apologies -- least of all, to his southern neighbour. But after his army shot and killed a South Korean man in North Korean waters, the supreme leader made a rare show of remorse. On Monday, a South Korean government worker on a ship went missing and was found by North Korean soldiers adrift at sea. South Korea says the man was shot and killed and burned at sea. In a letter delivered to Moon Jae-in, Mr. Kim called the killing a disgraceful affair and said he had disappointed the South Korean people. Sung-Yoon Lee is a Korean studies expert and teaches at the Fletcher School at Tufts University. We reached him in Boston.

CO: Professor Lee, first of all, how significant is it that North Korea's leader is expressing regret over the killing of this man from South Korea?

SUNG-YOON LEE: While it's not unprecedented, it is quite unusual for North Korea to express any kind of regret. Kim Jong-un, the North Korean leader, reportedly even said he was sorry that this unfortunate incident happened. Over the past several days, public opinion in South Korea has turned very dark, very angry toward not only the Kim regime but also the South Korean government for mishandling the situation. So it is an interesting development, but I would call this a non-apology -- more a rebuke than an apology.

CO: Let's just get a bit of the background as far as we know. Where was this man and what was he doing before he was killed?

SUNG-YOON LEE: Well, he went missing. He's a low level government official with the Ministry of Ocean and Fisheries. And he was on an inspection ship on Monday and his crew colleagues found him missing. And later the next day, he was found floating at sea on the western coast of the Korean Peninsula by North Korean guards, floating on a floating device and apparently wearing a life jacket.

CO: South Korea says that the man was shot and then his body was set on fire. What do you make of those details?

SUNG-YOON LEE: Well, North Korea has denied that allegation. North Korea has admitted that North Korean guards found the man, interrogated him from a distance, he was not cooperative and they shot him 10 times. And then they got closer to that body and did not find the body, but found much blood spilt over the floating device and they doused the floating device with gasoline and burnt it. South Korea, however, claims that North Korean guards not only shot and killed the South Korean man, but also burnt his body. And also South Korea's claim that the man was trying to defect to the north, that is also refuted by North Korea.

CO: North Korea, do we understand why it would shoot a man found floating on some kind of a device?

SUNG-YOON LEE: It is an unusual response even by North Korean standards. But we know that in recent weeks, North Korea, the government has issued an order on border patrolmen along the border with China to shoot, to kill, anyone illegally entering North Korea from the Chinese side out of fear of the pandemic. So it's a reasonable assumption that such orders were in place along the southern maritime border as well. But by international standards, when you find an unarmed person virtually drowning at sea, the right thing to do is first to save him and then perhaps interrogate him rather than shoot at him.

CO: So this leads us to this apology and this acknowledgment. What exactly then has Chairman Kim apologized for?

SUNG-YOON LEE: Well, the letter did not come from Kim Jong-un himself. It is signed off by the United Front Department of North Korea. And that government agency is very powerful. Its mission is to manipulate South Korea, to propagate its own views and pro-North Korean sympathies within the South Korean government and public at large. So the letter came from this department and it actually rebukes South Korea at length, even saying that we must express our deep regret at your baseless allegations that we committed an act of brutality and we take offense at your confrontational and blasphemous language, and North Korea denies any responsibility. Basically, North Korea says, 'oh, we're sorry this happened. It's unfortunate. We didn't mean it. We didn't do anything wrong'

CO: So basically, we must express our deep regret that you made the mistake of accusing us of something that we didn't do?

SUNG-YOON LEE: Yes. We take umbrage that you made us kill this man, waste our resources, and we're sorry that you are really misbehaving. So it's more a rebuke couched as an apology.

CO: What has been the reaction among people in South Korea? We can never really know what people, the public is saying or reacting to in North Korea. But how is South Koreans responding?

SUNG-YOON LEE: Well, the South Korean reaction has been quite fiery, in fact. Even supporters of the South Korean government and president Moon of South Korea, many have turned against him. The fact that president Moon did not issue any comment about the incident for 33 hours after being fully briefed on the case, people took umbrage at that as well.

CO: What does all this doing, I guess, possibly for relations between the North and South Korea?

SUNG-YOON LEE: In the long run, I don't think this changes anything for the better or for the worse. I think Kim Jong-un is doing some damage control diplomacy, trying to pacify the South Korean public and also come across as not entirely murderous. In the long term, the South Korean government will continue to try to reach out to North Korea. And for now, North Korea will continue to play hard to get. Why does North Korea do that? Because the more the other powers in the region, much bigger and wealthier nations, chase after North Korea, the more and the greater the net value of the Kim regime becomes. And when Kim Jong-un decides to be engaged again, the propensity to appease him and to offer him bigger and bigger concessions, even as he misbehaves, that propensity will continue to grow as he plays hard to get.

CO: Professor Lee I appreciate you deciphering this complex story for us. It's really quite bizarre and awful. But thank you for joining us.

SUNG-YOON LEE: Thank you for having me. Take care.

CH: Sung-Yoon Lee is an assistant professor at the Fletcher School at Tufts University who specializes in Korean studies. He spoke to us from Boston.

[Music]

Tanya Davis

CH: If you're tired of spending so much time alone, you're not alone. And given how things are going, you may be wondering how much longer this will go on and how much farther apart from each other we have to be to put the end in sight. You're not alone in that either. Halifax poet and musician Tanya Davis has been thinking about it a lot. Ten years ago, Ms. Davis and filmmaker Andrea Dorfman made a gutting but hopeful short called 'How to Be Alone.' Now they've made an update: How To Be at Home. And just in time too.

TANYA DAVIS: [Music] If you have pains in your chest, because your anxiety won't rest, take a moment, take a breath. Start simple. Things you can handle based on your interests, your issues and your triggers and your inner logistics. I miss lunch counter so much I've been eating sandwiches and pickles while hanging unabashedly with my phone. When you're tired, again, [inaudible] -- make yourself a dinner but don't invite anyone over. Put something green or maybe orange. Chips are fine sometimes, but they won't keep you charged to feed your heart. If people are your nourishment, I get to feel the feelings, undo while you have to keep apart. Watch a movie in the dark and pretend someone is with you. Watch all the credits because you have time and not much else to do. Or watch all of the credits to remember how many people come together just to tell a story, just to make a picture move. And then set yourself up to dancing like it's a club where everybody knows you and they're all going to hold you all night long, they can dance around you and with you and on their own. It's your favourite song with the hardest bass and the cathartic drums. Your heart pumps hard, you belong, you put your hands up and feel it. With the come down, comes the weeping. Those downward eyes and feelings. The truth is you can't go dancing, not right now. Not at any club or party in any town. The heartbreak of this sound, joins all the way down and you can visit them but please don't stay there. Good outside, if you're able. Breathe air. There are trees for hugging, don't be embarrassed. It's your friend. It's your mother. It's your new crush. Lay your cheek against the bark, it's a living thing to touch...

CH: From the new NFB short "How to Be at Home" by Andrea Dorfman. Words written and performed by Tanya Davis. And you can find that film on the NFB website: nfb.ca.

[Music]

Tarantula Colours Research

Guest: Saoirse Foley

CH: Cobalt blue, Brazilian jewel, gooty sapphire ornamental. Those aren't clever sounding shades for your new accent wall- -- well, they probably are actually -- but also they're types of tarantulas. Scientists have long believed that tarantulas were colourblind, except for one weird glitch in a theory: if they can't see the colours on each other, why are so many of them so pretty? That's what Saoirse Foley set out to find out. She's a post-doctoral student at Carnegie Mellon University. Her study on tarantula colours was published this week in the journal Proceedings of the Royal Society B. We reached Ms. Foley in Pittsburgh.

CO: Saoirse, as I'm sure you know, tarantulas are frightening for most people, but also it seems that they're beautiful. What were the assumptions about why these creatures are so colourful?

SAOIRSE FOLEY: Sure. So we really didn't have many answers until this study came out. There wasn't a lot of work that actually focused on this topic about why they're so brightly coloured. And that really kind of upset me, to be honest, to see such beautiful creatures in such vivid colours like purple, blue, green, and yet nobody knows why on earth they are these colours. And people had just been guessing that they weren't using them to signal to each other. They said the tarantula vision was probably not very good. So it was just a big mystery until recently.

CO: Just maybe describe, because it's not just any blue, it's not just a kind of dull blue, this is a spectacular looking creature. Can you just describe this tarantula of blue colour?

SF: Sure, it's highly iridescence. In fact, it's produced within the hairs of the tarantula itself on a nanostructure level. It reflects the light and interacts with the light in such a way that makes it incredibly bright and vivid. And honestly, I don't know the word for the exact shade of blue, but it's absolutely stunning the kinds of blues that these spiders can possess.

CO: Of course, the assumptions were also that I guess tarantulas can't see colour or determine colour, that they're often out at night. So why do you think that tarantulas might actually be using this colour?

SF: Sure. So there's a couple of different reasons. First of all, blue colours didn't correlate with any of the other traits that we tested. But when we looked into the genetic data of tarantulas, we found that they actually have these specific proteins called opsins, and they do a lot of different things in a lot of animals, but they are related to perceiving colours. I think future cities would probably do well to focus on maybe seeing how those colours interact under moonlight or maybe how those colours are perceived by other animals because, of course, vision, it's not a uniform thing. What we see is blue could be seen as even more or less blue by different animals.

CO: And what would be the purpose of it? I mean, is it for warding off predators? Is attracting mates? What are your theories?

SF: So we tested some defensive traits to see if there was a relationship between having blue colour and defensive traits and we didn't see any relationship there. So, yes, we think it's probably something more like what happens with birds. You know, some males have really bright and colourful displays to attract females. So we're starting to think that maybe it is a signal like from the male or the female to say to the other that, hey, I'm of the same species as you, I'm good to mate.

CO: And you're studying animals, we just said at the beginning that most people are terrified of, so what is it that you like so much about tarantulas?

SF: Oh, gosh. [Chuckles] Well, I suppose when I was younger and I found that you can find these animals in such a diversity of colours, that really resonated with me, because when you think of tarantulas, most people will think big, hairy spider, probably quite brown or black, but actually they're really beautiful and they engage in a lot of different behaviours that are quite rare among other animals and in the animal kingdom. And that really fascinated me too.

CO: What was the first time you ever saw a tarantula?

SF: I think it was probably when I was 11. That's when I got my first tarantula from the pet store. And from then on, I was just fascinated by them.

CO: Other people were getting cats and dogs and you got a tarantula.

SF: The tarantula was surprisingly more in our price range. [Laughter]

CO: And what did you like abou having a tarantula as a pet?

SF: Actually I got it because my birthday was over the summer and I was about to move to a new elementary school. And I wanted to be the cool, new, edgy kid with an awesome pet. And so I just wanted something a little bit different. And after getting the tarantula, I thought there was just one tarantula. It wasn't until maybe a year later that I discovered, oh, my gosh, there's so many different kinds and it can be so beautiful.

CO: And then that led you to being where you are right now, which is an expert in the science of tarantulas.

SF: Expert could be a strong word. [Chuckles] But sure. Yeah. I was very lucky that after my undergraduate studies, I saw this position advertised to study evolution of spiders at the graduate level. And so I'm from Ireland originally, I moved to Singapore to study for my phd. And all of the phd is basically different aspects of tarantula evolution.

CO: So what's the next thing you want to learn about tarantulas?

SF: Well, I think this particular study leaves a lot of room for answering and addressing more questions. I would love to learn whether or not they actually can perceive the colours. My current study is saying that we can't rule it out. On a genetic level, they have the ability to perceive colours. But it would be really cool, I think, to perform a new set of studies where we take these animals into the lab and maybe do some behavioural experiments with them to see how they react to these colours.

CO: Do you think that kids should be encouraged to ask for tarantulas as pets?

SF: [Chuckles] You know, I think it's a very personal thing, but if they're taken care of responsibly, I don't see any issue.

CO: Did you have a name for your tarantula?

SF: I think my first one was called Matrix because I saw him climbing up the walls of his tank and the Matrix had just come out recently so.

CO: Okay. That's your first one. So obviously you had many.

SF: Oh gosh, there was a point I think it reached its peak when I was maybe 13 or 14. I definitely had over 50 at that point. And sometimes I would, you know, sell them or maybe, you know, some of them would be old. And eventually then once I moved to college, I didn't have any tarantulas for a short period. But now in Pittsburgh, I have two with me here.

CO: Saoirse this is really a wonderful story. And I appreciate you telling it to us. Thank you.

SF: Thank you so much.

CH: Saoirse Foley is the author of newly published research on tarantulas. She's a postdoc student at Carnegie Mellon University. And she's in Pittsburgh.

[Music]

Atlantic Loop

CH: There's always a lot to listen for and to in the speech from the throne. But this week's had two words in it that are now creating a buzz. Here's Governor General Julie Payette.

JULIE PAYETTE: Additionally, the government will transform how we power our economy and communities by moving forward with a clean power fund including with projects like the Atlantic Loop that will connect to surplus clean power to regions transitioning away from coal.

CH: Did you hear that governor-General Julie Payette said the Atlantic Loop. It's a clean energy project that would link the Labrador-Quebec grid into New Brunswick and then into Nova Scotia. But that catchy title wasn't familiar to many Atlantic Canadians, including Andrew Furey, the premier of Newfoundland and Labrador, who said he heard the term Atlantic Loop for the first time in that speech. Which became clear when he tried to answer questions in a scrum yesterday. Here's part of that scrum that our colleagues at the St. John's Morning Show put together.

REPORTER: Are there any talks ongoing with Hydro Quebec and the maritime utilities about what the actual price you'd get for those export sales?

ANDREW FUREY: Not currently. This is all...I mean, I heard the speech from the throne yesterday like everybody else. So we're trying to work together right now to come up with a plan and a strategy.

REPORTER: How does it make economical sense with transmission costs to Quebec, Maritimes, and Labrador, and still making a profit -- how would that make sense economically?

ANDREW FUREY: Well, these are all discussions that we're going to have with our partners throughout Atlantic Canada and Quebec and with the federal government. But right now, we have an asset that is green. It is almost complete and we need to maximize the value of that asset for the ratepayers and the taxpayers of this province. And I was excited to hear the mention of it in this throne speech yesterday, it means that it's on the federal government's radar. It means it's something that they would like to see. And we need to make sure we're well positioned to capitalize on the green energy that we have here in Newfoundland and Labrador.

REPORTER: How would this whole thing get started? I would imagine there would have to be quite a bit of infrastructure that would have to go in place to make that possible.

ANDREW FUREY: They mentioned it about 12 or 14 hours ago, those are all details that we'll have to assess and move and strategize around moving forward.

REPORTER: So is it your understanding that Quebec is on board with this as well? Will the province be able to wield this power through Quebec or will we have to pay Quebec to use transmission?

ANDREW FUREY: Again, you know, these are details that are premature to talk about. I mean, we've, again, heard the mention of it yesterday in the speech from the throne. But I am excited that Newfoundland and Labrador can be that green battery that drives potentially through Quebec, potentially through our existing assets.

CH: That's Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Andrew Furey fielding questions about the Atlantic Loop.

[Music]

Evel Knievel

CH: If you grew up in the 70s, you remember Evel Knievel, a man who leaped over things on a motorcycle wearing a white jumpsuit and a cape. And if you saw Toy Story 4 you remember Duke Caboom, a toy who leaps over things on a motorcycle wearing a white jumpsuit and a cape. There are obvious similarities, which is why Evel's son, Kelly Knievel, is suing Disney. He says Duke Caboom is an obvious rip off of his dad, and no one got his permission to use his late father's likeness, which Disney denies. Like father, like son, I guess. Because in December 2006, Carol spoke with Evel Knievel himself, who was suing Kanye West for using his name and likeness in the music video. From our archives, here's part of that conversation.

CO: Mr. Knievel, what is it that you don't like about this Kanye West music video "Touch the Sky?"

EVEL KNIEVEL: I'm not really a fan of his for any reason whatsoever, nor am I a fan of most of the rap artists, I guess you might say. But my name is a trademark, it's copyrighted. And I don't know what kind of people he surrounds himself with, what kind of lawyers he has on his staff, if he has one, maybe he doesn't even have one. But for them to allow him to go ahead and make this video implying that he was Evel Kan-evel or however he says it -- in my opinion, was an absolute blatant sin against my persona. That's all. He just absolutely took advantage of me. He shouldn't have done it.

CO: How is it that he's stolen your image?

EVEL KNIEVEL: It's just that h's dressed up in my suit and pretends that he's takeoff on Evel Knievel. That's why -- I don't care how he pronounces it.

CO: And what is the act he is imitating there that's one of yours?

EVEL KNIEVEL: He's imitating my jump across the Snake River Canyon and my attempt to jump across the Snake River Canyon. And I really thought that the sexual reference in it was something that I thought wasn't the right thing to put forth. And I'll tell you something,-- it's Carol, right?

CO: Umm hmm.

EVEL KNIEVEL: Carol, when you reach a certain point in life, if you're lucky enough to, where millions of people are looking at you, which millions of kids were looking at me, when you're in that position, you have to look in the mirror and say to yourself, am I going to be a worthwhile person in life? Am I going to make a contribution? Am I going to make a choice in life to be a good person? Am I going to say and do the right things? And I made a choice years ago to be a spirit of worthwhileness. I wanted you to go through life -- and I said, the children 'Believe in God and love your mother and your father. And whatever you do, put things into your body that are good for you, not bad for you.'

CO: So what is it about Kanye West that you feel violates any of that?

EVEL KNIEVEL: Well, I don't think that Kanye West lives that way. I don't think he does. I think it's a blatant insult to me.

CO: But you can't sue somebody because you don't like the way they live.

EVEL KNIEVEL: Well, I'm not. I'm suing him because of the things that he did against the copyright and the trademark I have with my name and my jumpsuit. That's all. I did that. My attorney thinks I have a good case. So regardless of what you think of it, I'm going to continue with and I'm glad you're not on the jury.

CH: From our archives, the late Evel Knievel speaking to Carol in December 2006 about a lawsuit he launched against Kanye West. And despite what he said in that interview, the two men settled and Mr. Knievel called Mr. West a wonderful guy and quite a gentleman.

[Music]

Pumpkin Spice Kraft Dinner

CH: Boil some water, put in the noodles, at the butter and milk to the orange powder, mix it together, done. That's the secret of Kraft Dinner -- that there is no secret. And yes, the product has gone through some questionable innovations before. But this is different. This is worse. This is Pumpkin Spice Kraft Dinner. I know it's hard to digest. And it's even harder when you hear that the press release says it ain't no basic batch. Well, here's the thing, it's supposed to be a basic batch. That's why we love it. And I know it's tempting to chuck some nutmeg, cinnamon and allspice on everything and watch it turn to gold, but KD is already gold -- florescent orange gold. The only saving grace is that only 1000 boxes will be made available and only in Canada. So thanks for that. The company suggests the lucky few who score some pair it with, quote, "a cozy scarf, flannel shirt, fresh manicure and a pumpkin patch. And posted it because if you didn't posted, did it really happen?" I know it's supposed to be tongue in cheek, but it's a bit more fingers down throat. KD is not about trendy flavors, an uncomfortable hipster marketing blabber. KD is dull and reliable, always has been. Pumpkin spice and social media, are not it. And if they are, more than one person will leave that simple, reliable meal in the distant pasta. Here's Lisa LeBlanc with the song Kraft Dinner.

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September 25, 2020 Episode Transcript

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