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The AIH Transcript for September 18, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I’m Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CO: Health concerns. Manitoba's premier, Brian Pallister, says he and three other premiers want Ottawa to take on more responsibility for what he calls “the main thing”, and that's funding for health care.

CH: Big menace on campus. After dozens of university students test positive for COVID-19, the mayor of London, Ontario, has a warning for those who are floating the rules: keep it up and you'll kill someone.

CO: Breaking camp. Some refugees in the Greek island of Lesbos are moving to a new facility after a fire destroyed the Moria refugee camp. But what they really want is to leave the island.

CH: Born to run. Forty years after Terry Fox ended his Marathon of Hope, the annual run in his honour goes virtual. Fred Fox reflects on his brother's legacy.

CO: Seems like they're laying a guilt trip on themselves. Despite the fossil fuel burning, the proximity to strangers and the terrible coffee, people bought every single ticket for a seven-hour flight from Sydney, Australia to Sydney, Australia.

CH: And... putting the odd in methodology. This year's Ig Nobel Prizes celebrate weird scientific studies on the eyebrows of narcissists, alligators on helium — and a scientist who tried, and failed, to make a knife out of frozen poo.

CH: “As It Happens”, the Friday edition. Radio guesses he couldn't get his shiv together.

Part one: Pre-throne speech: Brian Pallister, New Moria camp, Ig Nobel Awards

Pre-throne speech: Brian Pallister

Guest: Brian Pallister

CH: Four of Canada's Premiers were in Ottawa this afternoon. But they weren't there to meet with their federal counterpart. The premiers of Alberta, Manitoba, Ontario, and Quebec made the trip to make a united appeal. They want Ottawa to take on a greater share of Canada's health costs — which have ballooned because of COVID-19. And the premiers want to see that new money announced in next week's federal Speech From The Throne. Brian Pallister is the Premier of Manitoba. We reached him Ottawa.

CO: Right.

BP: And so that was the purpose of today's... My plan is to stay on. I have a number of meetings next week on other topics as well. [chuckling] So I'll be using the time. And as a senior with asthma, I assure you that I will take every precautionary measure [chuckling] I can to protect myself from the effects of COVID. But I have a job to do.

CO: The four of you agree on what you wanted to from, for the most part, especially in the area of health care. So what are you asking Ottawa to do that it hasn't committed to doing yet?

BP: Well, quite frankly, Carol, you know, from every study that the present system is failing Canadians. We know that the Conference Board of Canada, for example, has done some analysis that shows wait times are in many categories, triple what they were just 20 years ago. We know that the demand is rising. We know COVID obviously has accelerated the necessity for us to address this. But those problems existed pre-COVID. The numbers I just described were pre-COVID. And the federal government's share in terms of contributing to health care in our country has never been lower since the Canada Health Act was passed, and the demand never higher. The combination of those two things equals longer waits for Canadians. And that pain is apparent to virtually all of us who know of someone or who have directly ourselves experienced those delays. And the impact it has on people is very real.

CO: The four premiers, I should just remind people, it was Quebec's Francois Legault, Ontario's Doug Ford, Alberta's Jason Kenney and yourself in Manitoba. And Dominic LeBlanc, who is Intergovernmental Affairs Minister in Ottawa, with whom you did not meet, he said that he found, I guess, an irony that the equalization formula you're challenging was negotiated when Jason Kenney was minister in Harper's government. So have you had these discussions with your colleague?

BP: Yeah, well, you know, I like very much Dominic LeBlanc. I've enjoyed our meetings and discussions. And I, like he, have to fight our own partizan instincts sometimes. So I would suggest that's an example of where he unsuccessfully did that. I would also say that this is not a partisan issue — and should not be made into one. We have premiers from various political parties who are unanimously agreeing to approach this issue as a team. And I think that we have a federal government, it's been my favourable observation, that we have a federal government that is willing to meet with us as I've enjoyed the meetings I had had with the prime minister, deputy prime minister, with Dominic and with other ministers, they've been willing to dialog. This is a chance now for Canada. This is a chance to show that we can focus on the fundamental reality that our health care system is the foundation in many ways of our not just our social services, but also of our economy. And so to let this situation linger and worsen is absolutely the wrong approach. And I would really, really be hopeful that the federal government would seize this opportunity to have willing partners, as we know this at the provincial level, willing to set aside their partizanship. We're seeing this in the behavioural approach that premiers have taken during COVID. I think many Canadians, me included, would like to see that continue.

CO: You seemed to get emotional today at the press conference when you're talking about this. The leader of the opposition in Manitoba, Wab Kinew, tweeted that these were crocodile tears from the guy who cuts health care and closes ERs during a pandemic. What do you say to Wab Kinew?

BP: I lost my sister to cancer a few weeks ago, and that's an ass of a comment to make. Quite frankly, it's silly for a person to say something like that. The reality is that the Manitoba government, like all provincial governments, has been investing more than ever in its history in health care. And we've got other things we need to do, too. But ultimately, if it keeps going the way it's going, we may as well shut down most of our other departments. All we'll be doing, Carol, is delivering health care without the support of the federal government. That's all we'll be doing besides debt servicing. That's not conducive to healing our country. It's not conducive to making a stronger as people. And opposition leader's comments aside, as silly as they may be, the reality is that we have to step up and address this issue now. And we have to stop talking about partisanship, as that criticism obviously was designed to do, and start talking about Canadians and their priorities for a change.

CO: Do you think you will see what you want, what you're talking about, some indication of it in the throne speech next week?

B.P.: I'm most certainly aspiring to see that. I think it would be to the everlasting credit of the federal government if they were to focus on this key priority. There are many things that can distract governments. There are many issues. And, of course, all of them. I chaired the Finance Committee federally for three years. I can tell you every single presentation said it was the top priority. Everyone said it would pay if we did the thing they were recommending. You know this. The fact of the matter is, this is something that will pay. This is health care we're talking about. And this is something that is enormous in its importance to Canadians. And we need to focus now. We need to focus on getting this right. You know, I can only tell you that I'm so pleased to have had the chance to fight for this, to stand up for this alongside premiers of every political party, including the NDP premier from B.C. And I think it's really critical that we continue to stay focused. There are many things that could draw a minority government in particular, as you well know, into all kinds of positions of support in various ways. But we can't, at this point in time, we must accept that we can't be all things to all people. We have to address the fundamental things first. Make the main thing the main thing. And the main thing is health care.

CO: Premier Pallister, I appreciate you coming on the program. Thank you.

BP: You bet. Carol, thank you so much.

CH: Brian Pallister is the Premier of Manitoba. We reached him in Ottawa.

[Music: Indie rock]

New Moria camp

Guest: Caroline Willemen

CH: Refugees living on Lesbos haven't exactly been welcomed by the Greek island's other inhabitants. But there's one thing both camps agree on. It's time for the migrants living there to move on. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be happening. After a fire destroyed the island's notorious Moria refugee camp earlier this month, some 12-thousand people there were left homeless. And while they would have preferred to find homes elsewhere, they're ending up right back where they started: In another refugee camp, on the same island, next door to the same people, who still don't want them there. Caroline Willemen is the field coordinator for Doctors Without Borders on Lesbos. That's where we reached her.

CO: Caroline, we know that people have been sleeping rough on the streets of Lesbos since this fire. Why are they then reluctant to go to the new camp?

CAROLINE WILLEMEN: So mainly what was the fear of people is to find themselves in a replication of the previous camp, Moria camp. Overcrowding, insufficient access to water and sanitation, insufficient access to food, and the most important aspect, obviously, not having a sense of freedom.

CO: Right.

CW: And so people, the people who were refusing to go inside, they were asking for different solutions in a camp. They were asking to go to a place that is genuinely safe.

CO: Right. So you, and Medicine Sans Frontier, you have been trying to support the people in the original Moria camp. You've been trying to support them on the streets. What have you seen of their new living conditions?

CW: I mean, 12-thousand people who were inside Moria camp, and who then ended up on the streets. So people making shelters themselves, finding bamboo sticks, using blankets to make it into a small shelter. In terms of what we were seeing in our clinic, many conditions linked to the living conditions. So skin diseases, people with diarrhea, people with respiratory tract infections. Then we see a lot of mental distress as well, which we always see also before the fire. But, of course, this fire and having to flee again and spending a week out on the streets, it has added another layer of trauma to these people who have fled war zones and were already living through the trauma of living in Moria, yeah.

CO: So they've set up these new tents. And I understand that as police began moving people into the new facility, that Medicine Sans Frontier, your group was barred from accessing its clinic in the restricted area near the camp. So what happened?

CW: Yes. So basically, what happened is that yesterday morning, when the police started an operation to convince people to move inside the camp, at that point, we were barred from accessing this restricted area where we also have our clinic. Then later in the morning, we managed to get access, we managed to get through, we were still seeing patients, and we were still seeing patients today as well. But basically today, by the afternoon, almost everybody has been through this police intervention, been taken basically off the streets and into the new camp. So by the time, we left the site that around 3:00 p.m., there were still hundreds of people queuing to enter the new camp.

CO: Right. And we know that this camp, the original one, Moria, which was originally supposed to house some several thousand, was then housing some 13-thousand. And images from that were just appalling. I mean, the conditions were people just living on top of each other in makeshift shelters and trying to find a place. So it has anything improved as far as the housing?

CW: So all the feedback that we have from people inside the camp, including our patients, all the images that we've seen are hundreds of tents, many of them just on the ground — so without a groundsheet. Absolutely insufficient access to toilets. We've already seen the images of the toilets being extremely dirty. There are eight rub holes that have been put up. So a rub hole is a very big tent that can house between 100 and 200 people where the single men will all be housed together. So you imagine to be sharing your room basically with 100 strangers. The site is it's right on the seafront in an extremely windy spot. So as soon as the weather turns, I'm afraid this will become a mud bath. So based on everything we have seen so far, we can only conclude that it looks like a new Moria has been created in a different location.

CO: One of the issues that came up, the reason why we're told the fires were started, was because of people being under quarantine, that there had been diagnosis of COVID-19 in Moria camp. What is being done to protect people from that outbreak?

CW: So, as far as we know, now, people entering this new site, they are being tested for COVID. And those testing positive, so it’s through the rapid tests, are quarantined. Of course, with the vast number of peoples entering today, it remains to be seen if all of them can be isolated. So I think what happened in Moria, it's a time bomb that exploded. And I mean that the horrendous living conditions have put people under pressure for months and months and months. Some of them are there for years. And then since early September, this first COVID case that was identified, a very chaotic response, the whole camp put under quarantine. So meaning nobody was allowed to leave anymore. And, of course, if you have 13-thousand people in a space that is designed for three-thousand and you also don't allow them to go out, this has just really increased let's say the pressure and the tensions inside the camp. I think seeing the general panic we have seen in many countries throughout COVID, imagine feeling that and sharing a room with one hundred strangers.

CO: We have heard from the European Commission, and it says that it's going to unveil a new set of rules for migration. We've heard the responses from many camps saying that, or many parts of Europe saying this is appalling, we have to do something. We've heard it all before, haven't we? I mean, each time there's another crisis in Moria, each time there's been more awareness of unaccompanied minors or other issues have come up, there's been this, well, we're going to do something about it now, and it doesn't seem to happen. Do you have any reason to believe that Europe will treat this situation any differently?

CW: There is nothing I want to believe more than that there will be a change. But indeed, after several years of working in this context, I find it very difficult to be hopeful about that. I find it extremely cynical to now see all the European leaders make grand statements about the people who lost everything in the fires in Moria, while the only thing I can think is if you had properly done your job in the last four years, this would never have happened.

CO: Caroline, it’s just a horrible situation there. I am glad you're there to help, along with others. I appreciate you speaking with us. Thank you.

CW: Thank you so much.

CH: Caroline Willemen is a field coordinator for Doctors Without Borders on the Greek island of Lesbos.

[Music: Classic rock]

Ig Nobel Awards

Guest: Marc Abrahams

CH: Figuring out why the Ig Nobel Prizes are fun is not rocket science. Anyone who listens to this show regularly knows we are huge fans of the Ig Nobels. Every year, the folks at the Annals of Improbable Research give out the awards to researchers who embarked on studies that were unusual, weird, or hilarious — intentionally or not. And this year did not disappoint. In fact, you've already heard about one of the winning projects on this show. It involves a sharp implement made out of, well . . . I'm going to let Marc Abrahams, the organizer of the Ig Nobels, tell you. We reached him in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

CO: Marc, as you know, there were two Ig Nobel Prizes with a Canadian connection 1this year. Should that swell our hearts with pride?

MARC ABRAHAMS: Are your hearts not already swollen with pride [CO laughs] as they should be?

CO: Well, perhaps. But, I mean, one of them is for a story that actually was very popular here at “As It Happens” [a dog barks in the background] about a scientist who made a knife out of frozen poo, his own poo, in fact.

MA: [chuckles, dog barks] Yeah. What's more to say about it than what you just said, although -- [dog keeps barking]

MA: Oh, that's my dog, Wednesday.

CO: Maybe he wants to go out to do something. [laughing]

MA: Yeah, who was part of the ceremony.

CO: We, of course, interviewed Metin Eren about his stool tool. So tell us why you thought that project should win.

MA: Well, I suppose I almost have to say those scientists got good outcomes from their research. [CO makes a mwaa waaa noise] Well, yeah. And the point, if there is a point to the Ig Nobels, is to let people know about a bunch of things that make anybody laugh and then think. And if this particular research project doesn't do that to you, then I feel sorry for you. [both laughing]

CO: What was the other Canadian recognition? Tell us about that story.

MA: There was the prize that went to Miranda Giacomin and Nick Rule for trying to see whether you could recognize a narcissist by looking at their eyebrows.

CO: [laughing] Well, what did they conclude?

MA: That in many cases, they say, yeah, you can, that narcissists tend to take a lot more care of their eyebrows and often emphasize the way they look compared to the way non-narcissists treat their eyebrows. [laughing]

CO: Wow! You had a prize for research into helium and alligators. How did that turn out?

MA: This was a big international team. They took a small alligator and they arranged for it to be inside a container where they filled some of the air with a mixture of helium and oxygen. And they recorded the alligator bellowing. And then they had the same alligator bellow in that same space in a regular atmosphere.And they compared the sounds and they're pretty different. [CO laughing] It's much like what happens with people [said with a higher octive] that the alligators get a higher voice.

CO: A physics prize for work on vibrating earthworms.

MA: Yeah. So now anybody else who has done their own work on vibrating earthworms is going to have to face the fact that a prize has already been given to somebody about this. This is a team that’s based in Australia, and they vibrated earthworms.

CO: OK. The prize for economics is unusual. And I'm just wondering also how the research was done on this one, because it went to a psychologist who did research and found that French kissing was more common between partners in areas of high income inequality. What do you make of that?

MA: Yeah, I'm still thinking about that. In the ceremony, you know, we have always a Nobel Prize winner hand the prize to the winners. In this case, the Nobel Prize winner was Francis Arnold, who was also curious about that. And so asked and really pressed the winner to say, you know, what is the effect of this? There's less kissing going on. She said now because of the pandemic almost everywhere. Is this going to affect income inequality? Does this mean there's going to be less income inequality in the world because this kissing is going down? And the winner thought about that long and hard and said, no, I'm afraid that's not going to be the effect.

CO: OK, there's a prize for medicine and, in this case, medical education. And it went to not scientists, but politicians, leaders of countries, including Boris Johnson, Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin. What honour did you bestow on them for? What was the reason for that?

MA: Well, as the citation said, they were honoured for using the COVID-19 viral pandemic to teach the world that politicians can have a more immediate effect on life and death than scientists and doctors can.

CO: Yikes! Always in the Nobel Prizes, the big one is the Peace Prize. And so it is with the Ig Nobels as well. So and this, again, did not go to scientists. Tell us who won the Ig Nobel Peace Prize?

MA: This year it went to the governments of India and Pakistan for having their diplomats surreptitiously ring each other's doorbells in the middle of the night and then run away before anybody had a chance to answer the door. This happened about two years ago, I think it was. And there are lots and lots of news reports that you can look up and find pretty quickly. [The dog barks again] That's exactly what they did. [chuckling] Now, we gave an Ig Nobel Prize, gee, probably 25 years ago or so to the prime ministers of India and Pakistan, at that point, for setting off atomic bombs in each other's backyards peacefully. So this is, I guess, proud tradition that's being carried on in those two countries by the government.

CO: I don't know how “As It Happens” missed this story, but we never covered it. But we are wondering what people call that? Because there's a dispute here at “As It Happens” as to the practice of knocking on each other's doors and running away. What do you call that?

MA: [laughing] I really don't have a term for it. What do you call it?

CO: Well, we believe it's called “Nicky Nicky Nine Doors”.

MA: Really?! I've never heard that. [CO laughing]

CO: All right.

MA: “Nicky Nicky Nine Doors”?!

CO: [laughing] That’s right.

MA: Any idea where that name comes from? I.

CO: I will have to research it. And maybe we’ll apply for an Ig Nobel once we find the answer to that. No idea.

MA: Wow! Good luck!

CO: Anyway, look, as always, Mark, it's great to talk to you. And I'm sure our listeners will have some response, especially to “Nicky Nicky Nine Doors”. And we'll talk to you next year. [both laughing] Bye.

MA: Bye.

CH: Marc Abrahams is the editor of the Annals of Improbable Research, and the organizer of the Ig Nobels. He was in Cambridge, Massachusetts. And now here is part of Carol's interview last September with Professor Metin Eren of Kent State University in Ohio.

CO: Professor Eren first of all can you just give us the gist of this story that Wade Davis tells in his book?

METIN EREN: Yeah. So the story basically is that there was an Inuit man who was being forced to move off of his settlement and his family took away his tools in order to convince him to come along with them and he refused to move off of his homeland. So in the midst of a winter gale he defecated into his hands and fashioned a knife from the frozen feces using a spray of saliva. Then the story goes that he killed a dog with that knife, used this rib cage as a sled, and used its hide to harness another dog. And he sped off into the night.

CO: And so it's a fascinating story. But you decided to apply a lot of skepticism to this story. Why is that?

ME: Well little did I know that 20 years after this story came out I would be co-director of an experimental archaeology lab here at Kent State. And we regularly reproduce ancient technologies in order to reverse engineer them. And figure out how they work. And it was late last year that it just sort of hit me that this idea of a knife being fashioned from frozen human feces had never really been tested before. And I think as any good scientist we were curious.

CO: I mean in order to do it you had to recreate conditions that might have been around this Inuit man and his decision to escape this way. So how did you go about doing that?

ME: Well I mean it's first important to note that no experiment is ever perfect and no experiment can ever perfectly replicate reality. But we did the best we could and so what I did was for eight days I went on a high protein and high fatty acid diet which is sort of consistent with an Arctic diet. And after a few days of that I started producing the necessary test samples then we start freezing the samples and to be honest I was surprised at how hard frozen human feces could become. And you know during the course of an experiment scientists start to see pattern, they have intuition about the results. And I start to wonder this may just work. We may actually make a knife out of frozen human feces.

CO: Okay so the story is that he fashioned this knife out of his frozen feces and then he proceeded to -- basically -- to skin and disarticulate a dog that he used as a sled. So how did you reproduce that part of it?

ME: Well what we wanted to do was give our knives the best possible chance to succeed. So we actually had dry ice with us. And so we're able to stick the knives into negative 50 degrees centigrade dry ice to get these things really really cold. And then in addition to that we had a metal file and so we're able to sharpen these feces knives as best as we could. And then what we did was we used refrigerated meat instead of a fresh kill because we thought well a fresh kill in that story would be a warm thing that would potentially melt the knives. And we want to see if these knives could cut so we used refrigerated meat. So we really put in place variables that allowed these knives the best chance to succeed -- it was a very conservative test. Unfortunately when we went to use these frozen knives it was like a brown crayon. Unfortunately it just left very nasty streaks on our meat and they didn't cut at all.

CH: Metin Eren is an anthropologist and archeologist at Kent State University in Ohio... and he probably ruined his appetite for meat for the rest of his life. (CH and CO laughing) He was speaking to Carol in September of last year. And you can find more on the Ig Nobels — which you should do — on our webpage: www.cbc.ca/aih.

Part two: Western University COVID outbreak, Terry Fox anniversary

Western University COVID outbreak

Guest: Ed Holder

CH: The mayor of London, Ontario has a stern warning for university students in his city who may be spreading COVID-19. At a press conference, he said, "if this continues, you are going to kill someone." That was yesterday — when officials have confirmed that, to that point, 28 students at Western University had tested positive for COVID-19. Today, the Middlesex-London Health Unit reported 13 new cases in the area. And the local health officer has said all but two are Western students. Ed Holder is the mayor of London. That's where we reached him.

CO: Mayor Holder, you sounded angry, frustrated yesterday. What's your reaction today, now that your health officer says another 11 students have tested positive for COVID-19?

ED HOLDER: Well, I would tell you, even angrier and even more frustrated. Just a bit of background. London has done so well. I mean, through the whole COVID, the pandemic, zero to two cases every day. And it's why we were one of the first cities in stage two, one of four cities in stage three. And then, like, since the weekend, it has just exploded the other way. Our numbers in less than a week are worse than they were in the total of all of June.

CO: Right. You now rival what you had in April.

EH: That’s right.

CO: You have 47 new cases this week. Thirty just in the past 48 hours. Thirty-nine Western students at this point.

EH: All correct.

CO: Have tested positive. So who do you blame for what's happening now?

EH: At some point, there's got to be some self-accountability. And I think those who think that they have some divine right of themselves and think that somehow they're not going to be impacted or affected. Here's the challenge and the irony. The irony is these young people who do the irresponsible things — be it at house parties or bars. I don't know if you heard some of the stats, but they're sharing e-cigarettes and sharing drinks. And I'm thinking, hello? I mean, when did that become a smart thing to do? I mean, it's so frustrating. So who do I blame? I blame young people who don't take personal responsibility. But the irony that they're probably going to be okay healthwise, but they forget they're going to take it home to dad and mom and sisters and brothers who are going to pass it on to grandfolks or those with underlying conditions. You know, they're going to kill someone. And that's the problem that they don't understand. And when we had the numbers yesterday, I was absolutely frosted. When I heard the extreme numbers today, I was over the top.

CO: Right. So self-accountability, you have to take individual responsibility here. But what responsibility does the city of London have? I mean, you knew that this was a possibility. We saw in the beginning of September a fraternity that was calling to have parties, saying it was a downright crime to rob the frosh of late-night parties. The last time we spoke, there was a street party of 25-thousand, despite efforts not to have that happen. So at what point does the city have to actually take some of the responsibility?

EH: I'm not sure about responsibility, but we certainly have to take the actions to lessen the problems. So when we supported the chief medical officer of health's position in London to ensure that we had physical distancing and safe conduct and not to play on playground equipment, you'll recall those kinds of enforcement issues, not to play on the courts, the public courts, we did all of that. And you know what was interesting was that we educated and we educated. And then one weekend, finally, we did a blitz. We give out 32 fines. And that was in June sometime. Can I tell you that we had three, a total of three fines since then related to equipment and the like. And so enforcement in its own way works. But now what's happened is that we are in concert with the health unit again to request a provincial regulation be in place so that we can limit, not only Toronto, Peel, Ottawa, where the the order is that house gathering's be limited in inside the homes and in the yards themselves. And so, what's our responsibility? Let me tell you, we'll be doing enforcement, from the health unit, to the police, to bylaw enforcement, to ensure that that's maintained.

CO: OK, just now you're going to do that? Because we know that, I just mentioned, the Delta Upsilon fraternity announced that it was going to have the parties. I mean, you knew this was going to happen. Neighbours were complaining. They said they actually filmed some of this. And so why just now you're talking about having these stronger enforcement?

EH: Oh, my God! Anybody paying attention knows that for the last seven months we've been talking, we've been enforcing on the issues that were the ones that were impacting London at the time. Can I tell you that we had a frat, a frat house that wanted to have this big party sent out invitations, and they got a little visit. And you know, what happened? And it was very clear, and our position on this and they backed away. But you're not going to stop kids to have their own private house parties, or that'll go to restaurants and bars and go back to their house parties unless you have something that gives it some teeth. So what we've done is we're putting in additional regulations with the support of the province to limit those numbers. And yet, even with that, we get people to come back and say, well, you know, these folks, they need time, and they need to be educated. Well, these aren't stupid kids, but they certainly act stupid. And it's our job to be able to put in the enforcement. And I think enforcement and education go hand-in-hand. And that's we're looking to do here.

CO: We know restrictions have been put in place on the campus of Western University. The university president, Alan Shepard. He said that there is little he can do for things that happen off-campus. And we know only one of these Western cases was someone who is in residence. We've talked to a student in residence, and she was very happy with what had been put in place to protect students. It seems to be happening in the city and not on campus, doesn't it?

EH: Well, the majority of those cases, as you pointed out, are ones that are not students who are in residence, as we know today, at least today. I don't know what tomorrow is going to bring? But you're right, these are issues that happen off-campus, and the ridiculous activities are stuff that happens off-campus as well. And so what does that mean? That means that we will use the legislation that we can use to try to limit the numbers. Look, we're gonna continue to tell people what, frankly, they already know. But I think the enforcement piece is where we have to go if we can't educate people through logic, we'll educate them, I guess, through their pocketbook.

CO: Where do you think this is going? Are you worried?

EH: I'm Damn worried. I look at this and think, you know, yesterday I thought it was bad, then we get a record number of cases today. You know, it's interesting. I spoke to the medical officer of health, and his comment was, this is now, in his view, the start of the second wave. And so am I concerned? I am.

CO: Mayor Holder, we will be watching what happens in London. I appreciate speaking with you today.

EH: Well, I appreciate your interest in this. We'll talk, I'm sure. Thanks.

CO: Bye.

CH: Ed Holder is the mayor of London, Ontario. That's where we reached him.

Terry Fox anniversary

Guest: Fred Fox

CH: Forty years ago, in September of 1980, Terry Fox ended his Marathon of Hope just outside Thunder Bay in northwestern Ontario. His dream was to run across the country and raise money for cancer research. But a few months in, his own cancer spread to his lungs, and he had to stop.

CH: And people certainly did continue Terry's dream to run for cancer research. For the last four decades, people across Canada and around the world have participated in the Terry Fox Run. To date, over 800-million dollars has been raised for cancer research. But the pandemic means that this year's run won't be the same. Instead, the Terry Fox Foundation is hosting a virtual run on Sunday. Fred Fox is Terry's brother, and part of the Terry Fox Foundation. We reached Fred Fox near Vancouver.

CO: Fred, did you ever think 40 years ago that your brother's Marathon of Hope would accomplish so much?

FRED FOX: No, I don't think any of us thought that, you know, there'd still be thousands of people every year participating in the Terry Fox Runs across Canada and around the world. And he hoped that people would continue after him if he wasn't able to. And Canadians have done that and people around the world. It's truly amazing.

CO: And he set out, he figured he was going to try and raise 24-million dollars, which would be one dollar for every Canadian. Now, the Terry Fox Run has raised more than 800-million dollars for cancer research. So I guess he did do what he set out to do, didn't he?

FF: Yes, for sure. You know, even when he left Newfoundland on April 12th of 1980, he thought maybe a million dollars. And that changed, as you said, to a dollar for every Canadian. And that's what it was all about, was raising money for cancer research. And he would be so proud to know today that the impact has made a difference in people's lives. And that's all Terry wanted. He'd be so happy and proud to know the money that's been raised has had an impact, for sure.

CO: You mentioned the April 12th, when he set off in Newfoundland, put his leg in the ocean and launched that Marathon of Hope. It was initially so difficult, wasn't it? I mean, not just the weather, but it just wasn't generating the excitement, people didn't understand. Until he got, I guess, about to Ontario, where the country started to realize who this man was and what this young fellow was doing. What kept him going in those early days, do you think?

FF: Yeah. You know, it was a struggle in the beginning, but what kept Terry going truly was, you know, the memories and the thought every moment of cancer patients that he felt he left behind in the cancer wards. And he would say that he believed he was set free of his cancer diagnosis, and he wanted to make sure that would be the same for others. That's what inspired him, that drove him to be running, you know, close to a marathon every day.

CO: You got to spend some time with him on the road during that that Marathon of Hope. What are your memories of your time with your brother during that stretch?

FF: Yeah. You know, I was very fortunate, along with our mom and our dad, and our sister, Judy, to be able to join Terry when he arrived in Toronto and ran with Terry down University Avenue towards city hall. And what an amazing thing. I finally was able to experience firsthand the impact that Terry was having on our country on so many people. And it is a memory that I'll never forget and a feeling I'll never forget, the excitement of what Terry was doing. It was truly amazing. And then literally a month later, in northern Ontario, totally different. Not thousands of people, just Terry, lonely, running on the highway in northern Ontario. And my wife and I got to spend three or four days with Terry there. And it was a totally different experience. And that's when we maybe realized that, you know, Terry wasn't feeling very well at that point.

CO: That was close to Thunder Bay when he finally had to quit because, well, he learned the diagnosis was that the cancer had spread to his lungs?

FF: Yeah, we were with Terry. And around August 19th, we left on August 19th, so about twelve days before September 1st and Terry was forced to stop. So, you know, little did we know at that point that we'd seen some of Terry's last miles to run.

CO: You said that he had a profound effect on so many people. What effect did he have on you personally?

FF: Well, even growing up, you know, we loved playing sports. And I'm just a year older than Terry, 14 months. And saw Terry challenging himself all the time. And, you know, he was an inspiration even early on, seeing how hard he had to work, and then how cancer changed his life. Terry said that himself, that it made him a better person, and Terry became a humanitarian. And we were so proud of that. And Terry inspires me every day. You know, getting up in the morning to go for a run. Well, you know, Terry did it every morning, so I can. Terry's an inspiration to be better and to do better.

CO: What are the plans for the 40th anniversary of the run, given the pandemic? What's going to happen this year?

FF: Yeah. You know, a year ago, in September last year, we were starting a plan for the 40th anniversary. And then COVID hit. And so we made a decision to go virtual. And we're asking people to still participate like they normally do, not to go to the big park that they normally participate with hundreds of other people, or the rec center. But go online, register as if they were registering for their Terry Fox Run. And then on Sunday morning, with their personal bubble and however big or small that is, you know, walk through the neighbourhood or go to the local park or their favourite place to to walk or run or cycle, whatever they want to do and still participate. It does seem like we're all still doing it all together, although we're kind of doing it within our own little bubbles.

CO: Just finally, Fred, I just wonder if you can share with us a memory or an image of your brother that you cherish.

FF: You know what? My memories of Terry have nothing to do with the Marathon of Hope. It's being kids, playing ball hockey in front of our house with their dad and brother. Or Terry and I as young teenagers where we lived port Coquitlam, where there was no Tim Hortons or McDonald's. We pick blueberries to make a little bit of extra money to buy our first set of golf clubs or our first pair of blue jeans. And those are fond memories of being in the blueberry fields and working hard, but also having a great time or, you know, all those things that we did as kids, you know, growing up with Terry was something I'll never, never forget and always, always have a memory.

CO: Fred, thank you so much for sharing your memories of your brother with us.

FF: Well, Thank you for chatting today. And thanks to Canadians for keeping Terry's dream alive.

CO: You bet. Thanks. Bye-bye.

FF: Bye.

CH: Fred Fox is Terry's brother. We reached him near Vancouver. After Terry ended his run 40 years ago this month, he underwent more treatment for his cancer. And that year he received the Order of Canada. In December, 1980, Terry Fox spoke with Barbara Frum on "As It Happens".

BARBARA FRUM: How has your chemotherapy gone, Terry?

TF: Well, I had six treatments so far, and right now, nothing’s changed from the last report that we had. The right tumor’s shrunk. And the one in my left lung hasn't really changed so much.

BF: What's been keeping you going, Terry? What kind of thoughts?

TF: I can't pinpoint one thing because there's been so many things. Things like the telethon. You know, I'll never forget that night when I was watching it, the money that was raised off the telethon. I get mail every day. Every day, I get all kinds of mail. And I always read every letter that I get. And the kinds of things that people say and encourage me and support me really helped me out psychologically, because I know there's so many people pulling for me. And that just makes it easier to, you know, go from day-to-day. I also, you know, I do have a belief in God, and that no matter what happens to me, things are going to be OK. Because, you know, It dsoesn't matter if the cancer's beat or not, either way, I'm going to turn out a winner. I'm going to go to heaven, or I'm going to continue doing what I am right now. Things are relative just positive now. Because right now, I'm working, and I'm feeling good, and I'm just being really active and not dwelling on the fact that, you know, there is uncertainty. I'm not sure about everything. And just thinking positively is the way you've got to take it.

BF: You know, you mentioned the telethon. You mentioned working with other patients that have got cancer. But there's a whole second thing that you've done, and I guess you're aware of that, that kind of symbolic thing about the country, about running across.

TF: Um-hmm?

BF: I realize that fighting cancer is your uppermost thought. But what you've done for this country's sense of itself and what its people can be, I hope people have made that clear to you, too?

TF: Well, you know, in the letters, in the mail I hear that, too. And that's something I never, ever dreamed of. I never, ever planned to do that. And, you know, if there's a there's a pro-Canadian or someone who's a proud Canadian I am. And to hear from people that that's where I've had a part in, it's really good.

BF: Terry, the award for Outstanding Athlete of the Year.

TF: People don't know how much that award meant to me.

BF: Well, I'd like you to talk about that because they're saying this guy's not just a cancer suffer. He is an athlete.

TF: Yeah.

BF: Which is what you were trying to say all along?

TF: I am an athlete. I have been all my life. And I know there was a bunch of sports writers and sports people in Canada, a lot of controversy whether they could classify at me as an athalete or not? And I don't think that was a question because to be able to run 26 miles a day on one leg, to train for 14 months, and on my run across Canada, I ran around five months in a row, 26 miles a day. And you don't do that and not be an athlete.

BF: Terry, the the most moving moment of the run for me was your meeting with the boy from Welland, Ontario.

TF: Um-hmm.

BF: He was in the same kind of predicament as you. What stands out for you? What memories?

TF: That was a very important time for me because just he reminded me of everything that I had been through when I had cancer. And I had run away from it all. I had tears because I had been back in the hospital. And to see him go through the exact same thing I did at the age of ten was a real motivator. But there's also one of the biggest, I guess, was the telethon. You know, we had one-point-seven-million dollars raised until the telethon. And then, all of a sudden, the whole thing exploded. And now we’re up over nearly 21-million now. And the telethon, I really saw the way people in Canada really reacted to what happened to me and the emotional outpouring. That really helped me through the hard time right at the beginning when I had to face the fact that I had cancer. What happened was after five months I had to come back home and fight things that was even harder than what I was doing on my run. So there was no break in between, no relaxation. And all the people that helped in the telethon and all the people who wrote me letters and everything after Thunder Bay, after I had to postpone my run has been so positive. And people have really helped me out. And I think that's probably the best thing that I think that has happened.

CH: Terry Fox speaking with Barbara Frum on "As It Happens" in December 1980, from his home in Port Coquitlam, B.C. Mr. Fox died six months later. The 40th anniversary of the Terry Fox Run — which will be virtual this year — will take place on Sunday. You can find more on our webpage, at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Folksy guitar]

Flight to nowhere

CH: The only good thing not being able to travel during the pandemic is not having to be in airports, or airplanes. And I had assumed we all especially hated the airplane part of travelling. Trapped for hours in a tiny seat as exhausted flight attendants pour you half-glasses of warm ginger ale which you drink surrounded by strangers snoring in a dry-mouthed zombie half-sleep while hogging the armrest. But I guess that's not everyone's memory of the experience. Because 134 people in Australia just paid the equivalent of 750 to 3600 dollars Canadian to leave Sydney on a Qantas Airlines flight, fly for 7 hours, and land back in Sydney. And Qantas says the flight sold out in ten minutes. Yes, there will be beautiful aerial views of Australian landmarks. And there will be a "celebrity host" — I'm guessing Paul Hogan, because I don't think Russell Crowe is allowed on airplanes — and some kind of "surprise" onboard entertainment. But still. People coughed up at least 750 bucks to be in a plane spewing greenhouse gas emissions into the Australian sky, to make a completely unnecessary journey from Point A to Point A — and to sit in economy for seven hours?! I know airlines are suffering. And I know being stuck at home is boring. But this idea has the potential for spreading coronavirus, and it's bad for the environment. And everyone who's waiting to board will just be flying in the face of the evidence.

[Music: Lulaby]

Part three: Banksy TM, Bob Wiseman guitar

Banksy TM

Guest: Aaron Wood

CH: A tribunal in the UK has denied Banksy's bid to prevent a greeting card company from profiting off one of his creations. The piece in question is one of the street artist's most famous. Known as "Rage, the Flower Thrower," It’s a stencil depicts a masked Palestinian protester lobbing a bouquet. Banksy wanted it trademarked. But that normally requires the copyright holder to identify him or herself. And that's not exactly Banksy's style. Aaron Wood is the lawyer who represented the British card company Full Colour Black in their battle with Banksy. We reached Mr. Wood in London.

CO: Okay. But the very thing, the mystique that's created by his anonymity is part of the, I guess, the cache of his image that the greeting card company wants to use. So, I mean, [chuckling] this is why it's valuable is because of what he has done to create this mystique. So isn't that part of his image?

AW: I have to say that I will agree with you on that that part of the reason why his artworks sell for quite so much is that no one knows who he is. You know, the art stands as a comment on its own, whereas I think if he came and people knew who he was, it'd certainly be a lot more ordinary. I think a big part of that is, yeah, his image. Now, whether that trickles down to make my clients products more valuable, I'm not sure about that. People like the esthetics of Banksy's works. And, of course, a lot of things that my client licenses they're images of the works in situ. They also sometimes look at using various different images so you can see the overall works of Banksy and some of its more educationalists. It's not all the sort of heavy commercial bits that people really get worried about, you know, Banksy being taken advantage of.

CO: But was there any way that that the Banksy could have done this better? What would he have had to do it in order to win the case against you?

AW: Well, what didn't help him in this case was that when we filed the action, his response was to go and open a pop-up store just outside London. And he and his lawyer came out and said, we've opened this pop-up store just to try and get around this legal case. So that made it look like he was really trying to abuse the system and that it was sham use. So in the nicest posible way, if him and his lawyer said, yes, I think probably he would have either had a better chance because the law likes to assume that if somebody files for a trademark, well, they want to trademark, they want to use it as a trademark. And what really didn’t help Banksy was that he condemned himself with his words a bit. And his lawyer sort of just doubled down on that.

CO: And, in fact, the panel of judges, they had kind of harsh words about how these actions are inconsistent with honest practices. Were they a bit miffed by Banksy?

AW: Well, it's a really tough set of words. It makes it sound like he's, you know, some kind of scam artist, doesn't it? You know, they weren't impressed by this. I think it made him look pretty bad. So I think, I mean, when you read through the decision, and a lot of lawyers have commented on this, it reads really, really harshly on Banksy, and even on his behalf of the successful parties. There are times when I read that decision and I think court, God, the court was really, really tough on Banksy there. They were maybe a little bit harsh on him. I don't know whether the comment “copyright is for losers”, you know, Banksy put in his book. It’s there as a piece of art. I don't know whether his position on IP and disparaging it maybe pushed their noses out of joint a little bit.

CO: Right. Because he does he does mock authority. He is anti-establishment, anti-capitalism. I mean, all the things that were represented by the copyright and trademark offices are anathema to him, aren’t they?

AW: Absolutely, yeah.

CO: But that leads the question, I mean, so Banksy lampoons the very idea of greeting card sentiments and trade offices. So why would your client even want to commodify and market a Banksy image?

AW: AW: Well, it's a really tough set of words. It makes it sound like he's, you know, some kind of scam artist, doesn't it? You know, they weren't impressed by this. I think it made him look pretty bad. So I think, I mean when you read through the decision, and a lot of lawyers have commented on this, it reads really, really harshly on Banksy, and even on his behalf of the successful parties. There are times when I read that decision, and I think court, God, the court was really, really tough on Banksy there. They were maybe a little bit harsh on him. I don't know whether the comment "copyright is for losers", you know, Banksy put in his book. It's there as a piece of art. I don't know whether his position on IP and disparaging it maybe pushed their noses out of joint a little bit.

CO: For free?

AW: For free. That they could put, you know, non-commercially. And they could just put it on their stuff. So how could it still be a trademark when, you know, every person could theoretically have it on a T-shirt or on a poster or what have you?

CO: Right.

AW: So he kind of got his IP mixed up a little bit. I think, you know, I think the public just have got this insatiable appetite for Banksy. I have to say, that's kind of where my client comes in.

CO: All right. We'll leave it there, Mr. Wood. Thank you.

AW: All right. Well, thank you so much for having me.

CO: Bye-bye.

AW: Bye-bye.

CH: Aaron Wood is the lawyer for the greeting card company that convinced the EU to reject a trademark claim by Banksy. We reached Mr. Wood in London, England.

[Music: Ambient]

Calgary best wisky

CH: Jim Murray is very good at drinking — and celebrating — whisky. Which is great news for the 2020 recipients of his "World Whisky of the Year" title. He's a bit less good at writing about it, though. Although you can't fault his enthusiasm. Which is great news for us. Because it means I can quote you the following description of the winning whisky from Calgary-based Alberta Distillers. Mr. Murray writes that it is "A succulence to the oils." "The most chewable Canadian mouthful possibly ever." "Immense yet equally delicate." And that its delivery "should be exhibited at the Museum of Canada because even the smallest mouthful simply ejaculates the most rampant toasty rye notes known to mankind." Oh, and it's got notes of vanilla. While parts of Jim Murray's excitement may be hard to make sense of, George Teichroeb's excitement is not. Mr. Teichroeb is the general manager at Alberta Distillers — and spoke with CBC's Jim Brown after this week's announcement.

GEORGE TEICHROEB: It's incredible. We're still, you know, still feeling the effects of the news. And I don't know if it's fully sink in yet. We knew, and we released it, that we would be shaking things up maybe a little bit in the Canadian whisky market. But to be called the World Whisky of the Year. Wow!

JIM BROWN: And I'm quoting from the Jim Murray here. It says, this is something to truly worship.

GT: Well, Jim Murray, I don't think he lies too much. [JB chuckles] It's an incredible product.

JB: For anyone out there who is not a whisky aficionado, can you just explain the significance of this coming from Jim Murray and the Whisky Bible?

GT: Yeah. So Jim Murray, I mean, he's been promoting the Whiskey Bible and starting it for years. But he goes through 12-hundred new whiskey selections and he goes through this. And being world-renowned, the selection process that he goes through is intense. So for him to call that out, it's incredible. He's had accolades in the past for Alberta premium product. But for him to come back now, knowing what we can do or knowing what we've done in the past is fantastic.

JB: So you have some experience with this. Generally, a world title like this, what does it do to sales?

GT: The sky's the limit. Unfortunately, when you age spirit, we would have had to have this vision, you know, five, ten years ago. So we're excited what the future has for us.

DD: I see what you mean. So if you knew this was going to be best in the world, you would have made about ten times more of it. [both laughing]

GT: Exactly.

JB: Is there any left?

GT: Great question. We actually did launch this, I think, a little quietly back in November. And from what I understand, it did go off shelves pretty quickly. I think it's probably in limited supplies in Calgary right now. But we'll see what the future has to offer.

JB: See, this is the problem with this pandemic, because in regular times, you'd be sitting across the table from me right now, pouring me a glass. [both laughing]

CH: George Teichroeb is the general manager at Alberta Distillers — the winner of this year's "World Whisky of the Year. He spoke with CBC's Jim Brown on "The Homestretch."

[Music: Ambient]

FOA: Judy Tydor Schwartz

CH: Tonight, as Rosh Hashanah begins, Jews around the world will mark the Jewish New year by blowing a Shofar. And at the Museum of Jewish Heritage in New York City, visitors can find one sacred horn that still holds powerful echoes of the past. A shofar that was smuggled in and out of Auschwitz — and may even have been used by prisoners to mark the Jewish New Year at the camp. Judy Tydor Schwartz is a Holocaust expert. Her late father was a prisoner in Auschwitz and obtained the shofar in 1945. We spoke to her last October when the shofar was first put on display at the museum. Here is an encore presentation of that conversation with Judy Tydor Schwartz. She was in Ramat Gan, Israel.

CO: How did your father come to be in possession of it? Because he wasn't at that procession. How did he get it?

JUDY TYDOR SCHWARTZ: So my father knew of the shofar but had never seen it. Three months later all the prisoners in Auschwitz were marched out of the camp onto what was called 'The Death March.' As they were setting out for this march when they were still in the camp, my father said that a prisoner came over to him and put something into his hands. And it was the shofar that was wrapped with rags. And this prisoner said I'm not going to survive, I'm dying, you're stronger than I am -- maybe you'll survive, this is the shofar, take it, and if you make it out tell the world we had a shofar here in Auschwitz.

CO: It's been with your family for all these years. Why now? Why are you going to have this in the Museum of Jewish Heritage?

JUDY TYDOR SCHWARTZ: Well that's a story of its own. From the time my father was liberated, he blew this shofar on Rosh Hashanah and it was just part of the family. This was Grandpa's shofar. However this past year an incredible exhibition called "Auschwitz. Not long ago. Not far away." opened at the Museum of Jewish Heritage in New York City. And the chief curator and historian behind this exhibition Professor Robert Jan van Pelt did me the tremendous honor of taking me around the exhibition. And towards the end there is a beautiful room called Spiritual Resistance. And I walked into the room and there was only basically one artifact there. And Robert Jan said to me you know there's very little that we have of religious artifacts from the Holocaust -- nobody really has things like that from Auschwitz. And without thinking I said Oh yeah I do. And he just looked at me and he said, you what?! And said I have a shofar from Auschwitz at home. He looked at me in total astonishment and he said please can you lend this to us. And without thinking I said yes of course. And it is now on exhibit with my father's story written up on the wall. I feel that by doing it, by telling the story of the shofar, that I am truly honoring my father and my father's memory. To be able to do that almost 27 years after he's gone is an incredible incredible thing.

CO: Judy this is an extraordinary story of hope. And I really appreciate you sharing it with us. Thank you.

CH: Judy Tydor Schwartz is a Holocaust expert — and her father was a Holocaust survivor. Carol spoke with Ms. Tydor Schwartz last October from Ramat Gan, Israel.

Court appointments

CH: Earlier this week, we spoke with Anthony Navaneelan. He's the vice president of the Canadian Association of Refugee Lawyers. And he had a clear message for the federal government: in terms of diversity, the judges appointed to Canada's federal bench need to look a lot more like Canada itself. Mr. Navaneelan was one of a number of signatories on an open letter addressed to Justice Minister David Lametti. And speaking with CBC's "Ottawa Morning" today, Mr. Lametti said he agrees. But he also wanted to correct some misconceptions around court appointments. Specifically, that federal judges must be bilingual in order to sit on the bench. In fact, that's only true of Supreme Court judges — which we failed to clarify in our interview. And Minister Lametti says while it's an asset for other positions, so are things like subject matter expertise.

DAVID LAMETTI: We've put together a good process with judicial appointment committees that are also represented across Canada, both for the federal courts and for the federally-appointed superior courts. And people come through that process, that rigorous process, recommended or highly recommended. At that point, then I will endeavor to make the bench as representative as possible in looking at that pool of candidates. So the most critically important thing we can do is create a better pool, get more people to apply and then allow the JACs to do their work — the Judicial Appointment Committees to get those people. The other thing about the federal court in particular, its subject-matter-driven. So we'll consult with the chief justice of the federal court, who may need an immigration lawyer, who may need an administrative law lawyer or an IP lawyer. And there's also a residency requirement for the federal court. So it's not quite as easy as saying, well, we'll look across Canada and pick six people. So there's a false dichotomy out there that previous governments have talked about between merit and diversity. It's a false dichotomy. Inclusiveness and merit go hand-in-hand. There are good people now coming through the process. Since since my most recent mandate began last November, 60 per cent of the judges across Canada's federal court and federally appointed court judges, 50 per cent women, almost 20 per cent have been visible minorities, three per cent Indigenous. We still need to do better, but we're clearly pushing it in the right direction.

CH: Federal Justice Minister David Lametti, speaking with CBC's Robyn Bresnahan on "Ottawa Morning" today.

Bob Wiseman guitar

Guest: Bob Wiseman

CH: Bob Wiseman gave up the search a long time ago. He no longer checked pawn shops. He stopped spreading the word and asking friends to keep an eye out. He knew he would probably never see his guitar again. Decades ago, the Juno award-winning musician's one-of-a-kind, hand-painted guitar was stolen at a recording session. But like so many of the lyrical stories Mr. Wiseman wrote with the guitar, this story took an unbelieveable turn when he received an email from a trucker travelling across Canada just last year. We reached Bob Wiseman in Toronto — with his long-lost guitar in hand.

CO: Bob, how does it feel to have this guitar back in your hands?

BOB WISEMAN: Awesome. It's quite wonderful to have this guitar back in my hands.

CO: How does it look? How does it sound?

BW: Well, it sounds great. I wrote a lot of songs on this guitar. And it looks really interesting. The woman who painted it did... well, you know, I'm taking it in a different way now. You know, because it’s, like, almost 30 years later. And I realized how many things [laughing] ,well, theres a lot of things I don't recall about the design and the work she put into it. It's very colorful. And there's a lot of unusual images, you know, that are crossed. Like, there's a dolphin and there's an elephant and there’s ears. And it's kind of exotic and erotic in places. And, well, there's a there's actually a little self portrait of her on the back wearing a T-shirt that says, “I am woman. Hear me belch.” [CO laughs] And there's just there's a lot to it. It's it's great. It was a really nice spirit. It was really nice memory of this woman. Her name was Cathy Couric, who just approached me after a show in Winnipeg and asked me if she could paint my guitar.

CO: And now, it was painted. And how long did you have it before, well, it disappeared?

BW: Well, I had it for, well, I can't tell you precisely. At least a couple of years. At least three years. You know, I wrote a couple of records of songs on this guitar before it was stolen. It was stolen from my van. I was producing a record for Andrew Cash at the time in a place called Street Brothers, which was in Etobicoke, maybe Mimico. And it was an empty parking lot. My radar would go off these days. But back then, all my equipment [chuckling] was in the back of the car. And it was really, you know, I still remember the gut feeling of going out and it being dark, and seeing the windows smashed, and everything gone. And just not realizing that about the world, you know? And in the following days, everyone asked me if I had insurance and, you know, and I kept having to say, no, I didn't have insurance. I have ever since because of that. And the thing that really hurt, I guess, most was this guitar, you know, cause she kind of put more meaning into this guitar — the woman who painted it.

CO: This is back… were you still with Blue Rodeo at that point?

BW: No, I think I had already quit Blue Rodeo. I think it was probably a couple of years after that.

CO: So you were on your own then.

BW: That's right.

CO: And so now this guitar is gone. And a lot of this stuff was recovered. Did you ever think you would see the guitar again?

BW: No. I kind of made my peace with it. Yeah, I moved on. I realized, I mean, we recovered all the other equipment through pawnshops. But the guitar remained unfound. And so this guy called me out of the blue last year because he basically bought it 20 years ago in a pawn shop, I think, somewhere in Quebec. And he was a trucker. And he had it for a long time. And his daughter, at one point, saw inside the guitar, Cathy's name, or no, no, on the back, right where I told you about the little cartoon, she drew herself with a funny T-shirt. Her name was handwritten. And so his daughter, she ended up searching out Cathy and finding her in Winnipeg. And Bill, the guy who called me is a trucker who goes across the country [laughing] doing work. And so I think he just looked her up in Winnipeg. He brought the guitar with him. He wanted to kind of just show her that he had the guitar now.

CO: Wow! And so how did she react when Bill the trucker showed up with the guitar that she had painted?

BW: Well, I think she was very moved and surprised, and I think she'd been through a lot of changes in her life, too. But she also enlightened him on the other part of the story that actually I made this for this guy, this musician, @BobWiseman-dot-com. And so he then emailed me later and said, hey, you know, I got your guitar and he calls me. I mean, that's the real story, you know? You know, is this guy being that kind of kind and sensitive and gracious to kind of think, you know, after he met me and talk to me and found out more about the story, didn't like the idea that the thing that he owned had been ripped off originally. And I didn't, you know, I didn't guilt trip him or anything. I thought, OK, it's his guitar now or whatever. It was after we first spoke, it was like a week or sometime after that he called me back and said, hey, I want you to have this back, you know?

CO: Wow. So did he tell you anything about why how came to buy the guitar, where he found it, what it meant to him?

BW: He told me that he got it at a pawnshop somewhere in Quebec, I think. And, yeah, I belive he's a guitar player and musician and he has a collection of guitars. I met him and his wife earlier today when he gave it back to me, and his wife made mention of the fact that he has a man cave, as she said, with a lot of guitars in it and whatnot [both laugh]. And he had one condition when he called me last week to return it, which was I have a book that came out last month on ECW Press about intersections of the different music things I do and consciousness. And he said he wanted a copy of the book signed. [laughing]

CO: And that’s it?

BW: Yeah, that's it.

CO: You're burying lead here. So you finally met Bill the trucker today. And what was that meeting like?

BW: It's awesome. It was great. Him in his wife We met at High Park. He drove in. He lives in a small town called Merrickville, outside of Ottawa. And he drove to Toronto today just to return the guitar. It was great. Yeah, I really enjoy people that are, you know, generous and like to show it. And doing meaningful things just makes it more worthwhile.

CO: All right. I think that we can't see what it looks like, but we can hear what it sounds like. So do you think you can just play a bit for us? Yeah, I could play a bit for you.

[Sound a compressed guitar through the phone]

CO: [laughing] The phone doesn't do justice to the sound of it, but --

BW: Of course.

CO: Is there a song that you'd like us to play that actually has been produced [laughing] a bit better than we just did here?

BW: Yeah, there is. I mean, I did a whole record in 1995 with this guitar. And one of the songs was called "10,000 Miles" that's about not being too attached to your problems, [chuckling] which maybe would be apropos. Sure.

CO: Lovely. Lovely to speak with you, and congratulations on getting your guitar back.

BW: Thanks a lot.

CO: Bye.

CH: Musician Bob Wiseman in Toronto.

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September 18, 2020 Episode Transcript

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