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The Current Transcript for September 7, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

SOUNDCLIP

[School bell]

VOICE 1: I feel pretty excited because I get to see all my teachers again and I get to see all my family, but I'm a bit nervous too.

VOICE 2: Well as a mom I always have concerns, but I do think it's safe for them to be here. I think they'll thrive. It's where they're supposed to be.

VOICE 3: If I wake up one morning and I have symptoms, what is that going to mean for my students?

VOICE 4: Biggest fear is that we've done this for nothing, if people start getting sick.

MATT GALLOWAY: The end of summer always comes with some back to school butterflies for teachers, students and parents, but like so much of 2020, this first day back is different. How are you feeling about back to school? If your house is like our house, that question was the subject of much discussion this Labour Day weekend and in the days before. As students across this country return to school, whether in class, at home or a mixture of the two, we are opening our phone lines and turning the show over to you. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is a special back to school edition of The Current. No Easy Answers.

[Music: theme]

Back To Top »

No Easy Answers: Canadians have mixed feelings about back to school

Guests: Andre Picard, Armine Yalnizyan

MG: In some parts of the country, this will be week two. In others, only a few more sleeps until that first day back. Wherever you are, school will look different this year and there are a lot of unknowns. So today we're dedicating our entire show to our back to school series, No Easy Answers. And we want to hear from you. Let us know what questions are nagging you. How confident are you about schools reopening? Are you sending kids back? Have you decided that the questions are too big and you don't have enough answers? And so maybe you want to keep the kids home, at least for now? The number to call is 1-888-416-8333. Parents, students, teachers, we want to hear from you. How are you feeling about back to school? Again, 1-888-416-8333. We will start with one family's difficult decision in British Columbia.

SOUNDCLIP

TONI: This is where I work out of my house. It's great, it's a little room and there's a separate entrance, my clients come in from that side. And I do manicures and pedicures and waxing and eyelashes.

HARPER: My name is Harper and I'm nine-years-old and I'm going into fourth grade.

NICHOLAS: My name is Nicholas. I'm 17-years-old and I'm going into 12th grade.

HARPER: In March when this all happened I was really sad that I don't get to see my friends anymore and I miss school.

TONI: My name is Toni. I have a beauty studio in my house that I opened up seven years ago, and I work full time now. I used to work Saturdays, but I stopped doing that because the kids didn't like that. So I do work Monday to Friday. I'm grateful that I have the business. I love it. It's amazing, but it's hard because I have a lot of responsibilities with the kids and schooling and working and all that on my own.

NICHOLAS: So I would say sort of my stance on school starting again is that I am not like me and like I don't think it's a good idea. I don't feel safe. And like a lot of my friends don't feel safe because they closed the schools down when there was just under a million cases globally and now there's millions in the reopening it. And I don't see the smartness in there. And I know that they're trying to keep students on track. But you still, no matter what, can be in a confined space. It's a pretty scary thing that they open it back up, to be honest. We're hoping that we can all do online schooling and not go back to school.

TONI: He was signed up for the apprenticeship programme. So he was going to be the sort of school one day work one day school, one day work one day. And we still what days away from starting school? Don't even know what that's going to look like yet.

HARPER: I'm just really excited to go back to school because I really want to see my friends again. And it's much easier to learn.

TONI: With Nicholas being 17, he understands, he can where his mask, wash his hands. He's aware of that. But I was not wanting to send my daughter to school. I was not her still being so little, I didn't want her to go back. It's just an emotional, hard time. It's hard because being a single parent, working full time, I don't have the ability to just say, OK, we're gonna get home schooled and I'm not going to work and I'll just teach you guys or I'm going to hire someone. I can't do that. So we just kind of made the decision to send my daughter back and my son back. Not happily. And you have those people who are like, well, the chances are super slim and you know this like what the government's saying, it's so low for kids. I would die with my kids going back and if they got sick. Just the thought of it makes me a little bit crazy.

MG: Sound familiar? Toni Adamopoulos and her kids live in Ladner, British Columbia. Andre Picard is The Globe and Mail's health columnist. And we have been lucky enough to speak with Andre regularly throughout this pandemic. And we're very fortunate he will be with us as we open the phone lines to hear from you in just a few moments time. Andre, good morning.

ANDRE PICARD: Good morning.

MG: Thank you for taking the time to do this. This is important in part because I think a lot of people would have never expected that when schools shut down very suddenly in March. We would be in this situation with this anxiety. Would you have expected that?

ANDRE PICARD: Not really. We thought, you know, there's gonna be a pandemic and it's going to be intense and then it's going to pass and we're going to live happily ever after. But it's something that's going to be much more lingering. It's gonna be with us for years and we're really learning to live differently and school is probably the biggest test to date by far. And it's really, you're right, the anxiety for a lot of people is really off the charts.

MG: And so are we as a society ready to send kids back to school?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I don't think there's a yes or no answer. Unfortunately, one of those it's complicated answers, so it depends where you are. You know, I think the single biggest factor we have to keep in mind is how much coronaviruses in the community. If there's none, there's no risk. Now, the risk is very different around Canada. We have different rates. So that's the number one factor by a long shot. And then there's our personal risk tolerance. There is what does the school look like? You know, do we have classes of 40 or do we have classes of 10? Those are big, big issues. Can kids social distance? How do they get to school? Is it on a bus? Is it by bike? So there's a multiplicity of factors. And that's why it's that's why you hear this like the story we just heard, parents are just so anxious. They just don't know what to do because there's so many factors that go into this calculus that is never going to give us a satisfactory answer.

MG: Well, and to your point, I mean, across the country, the rates are different that families in British Columbia. We're hearing that rates are creeping up there and perhaps creeping isn't even the right word. You've written about this in The Globe this morning. And most students, like those ones in B.C. are going to be back in school in person, not doing remote learning, but actually back in the classroom. Are you concerned about that?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I think we have to be concerned, but I don't think we have to be alarmed. You know, the reality is we have to learn to live with this. There are going to be cases and there are going to be cases in school. And we just have to think about how are we going to deal with them? How do we prevent outbreaks rather than individual cases? So if we take Quebec, for example, they've been back for a week, 10 days, we're seeing a few dozen cases. But the good news is we don't seem to have any outbreak. So these are sporadic cases in. In essence, the same number of kids are infected now as before they went back to school. It's they're just in a different setting. So we have to take all these things into consideration.

MG: The anxieties being felt by parents, but also by teachers. They are on the front lines of this return to school. Lindsay Brown is a grade 11 and grade 12 English language arts teacher in Winnipeg. And ahead of class this week, Lindsay, listen back to some of their messages to students last spring.

SOUNDCLIP

[Lindasy Bronw's recording to her students]

LINDSAY BROWN: Hey everyone. I want to reassure you that my number one priority over the next few weeks is that you take care of yourself and take care of your families and you just make sure you're healthy and safe.

[Fades out]

LINDSAY BROWN: What you just heard was part of a message that I sent home to my students just before we went into lockdown in the spring.

[Fades to recording]

LINDSAY BROWN: We will find a way to make this work. It's pretty uncertain right now. Just know that I am here for you. I will find a way to support you.

[Fades out]

LINDSAY BROWN: Getting back to school this week I am most excited to see my students. I think that was the hardest thing, was talking to a screen and having them talk to me on a screen. And I know that for a lot of our families, they had multiple students at home trying to learn remotely and maybe only one device between them.

[Fades to recording]

LINDSAY BROWN: I'm going to have you check out the class website. I'm going to be posting.

[Fades out]

LINDSAY BROWN: So normally my classes would range from twenty four to thirty students. This year the students will be attending in person every second day of the school day cycle. Our classes have been capped at 15 students per class and so they'll be with us one day at home learning. Working on independent assignments or connecting with their class virtually. So that we'll be there in person one day and at home the next. So all of my students will be wearing masks. Those that don't have them will have them provided to them. I'll be masked. I think I'm also gonna be wearing a face shield just to add an additional layer of protection for myself. I suppose there's always the worry that there will be students who, for whatever reason, decide to defy public health orders. And I think this is where conversations about critical literacy and critical thought are going to be really important so that students are not deciding to leave their mascot home as an act of rebellion. So I don't doubt that there will be some students that have been listening to conspiracy theory videos on YouTube. And we'll also have to have conversations about people who are in romantic or sexual relationships and what those rules and understandings need to be in order to keep everyone safe. Things like vaping, things like, you know, going to parties are going to be additional risk factors. And so we need to talk honestly and openly with them about their decision making so that they can make those choices for themselves in a way that's responsible. Another thing that I find myself wondering is what will I do if I get sick? If I wake up one morning and I have symptoms, what is that going to mean for my students? What is that going to mean for the substitutes? Are we going to have enough people to cover those classes? Is it going to put my colleagues at risk if they're asked to cover for classes of somebody else and they have to break into a different cohort? I worry about the implications and how people may be put at additional risk. But I also know that it'll be a battle for me to tell myself to stay home, because often as teachers, we will joke or we did before all of this. We would joke about how it's easier to just go in with a cough and a cold than it is to plan for an entire day when you're absent.

MG: Andre Picard, teacher Lindsay Brown there raises a few points to pick out. One is that idea of schools being prepared to deal with teachers who get sick. Do you think schools are ready for that?

ANDRE PICARD: I don't think schools are entirely ready for that because we know that in a lot of parts of the country, there are chronic shortages of teachers already. So how do you fill in? That's just a difficult thing in a normal world. And we're not in the normal world anymore. Then the question of substitutes breaks this notion of having a bubble. So one of the big things about schools is, well, try and keep people in bubbles, limit their contacts. But what happens when you constantly bring people into that bubble? It defeats the purpose. So there are a lot of real challenges. I think school boards have really, really made a lot of effort, but I think they probably started quite late at this. We kind of wasted the summer in Canada reading, not discussing this. And then we're doing a flurry of activity and trying to figure out what to do on all of these really complex questions at the last minute.

MG: I mean, the other issue is the issue around teens and trying to get teens to play by the rules when they're meeting new people. And there are the questions that Lindsay raised around parties and vaping and intimacy. How do you get teens to to play by the rules?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, it's never easy, right? Anybody who who's had teenagers in their house knows that they they're not real followers. So I think we have to realise there's not going to be perfection. So the the ideal is to try and get everybody wearing their mask to social distance, et cetera. Some are going to do it a lot better than others. Teenagers are going to be a challenge. College, university age students, we don't talk about them enough, but they're a huge challenge as well. So these are all things we have to to adjust to. Different people react differently in society. There are adults who are behaving really badly too. We can't just say it's all about young people. You know, I think young people are getting a disproportionate amount of blame and worry when there's a lot of people being cavalier at all ages.

MG: One of the reasons why we wanted to do this, have these conversations right across the country is because this is the discussion from coast to coast to coast. In Winnipeg, this is a scene that's playing out, as I say, everywhere in Canada. Dwight Lavallee, he's known as Butch, he's head custodian at the kindergarten to grade 8 Island Lakes Community School. Here he is preparing for the first day of class.

SOUNDCLIP

DWIGHT LAVALLEE: Two days ago, this was a work off facility with special flooring. So we had to tear out the flooring and locate furniture throughout the building and set up for, I believe, there's 16 students in this classroom. Every classroom, band rooms, music rooms are all being converted back to regular classrooms. Gyms are being used for storage and classes. Community rooms are being used for classrooms, library. Every every available space is being used for a classroom now. That way we can social distance and have at least six feet between each student. This cleanup has been a lot different than any other we have ever done. We've changed all filters throughout the system. We've adjusted our air intakes. We've done all our venting has been cleaned. Pressure washed, vacuumed, whatever it needs to be done. All classrooms have been sanitized. Doorknobs, all that sort of thing will have to be done. Bathrooms on a regular basis. As they're used we have to go in and clean and wipe them down. Setting up hand sanitizing stations throughout the school. There'll be arrows in the hallways directing traffic around everywhere. Others things we have been doing in the division is shutting down all the water fountains. The only thing will be the auto bottle fill stations. You could fill up a regular bottled water in probably 15 seconds. I've been here for 30 years. We used to have students come help us. They'd be like our little student apprentice. We'd keep them busy for a while, while the teacher was able to deal with what she had to deal with in the classroom. That will not be happening anymore just because of the safety aspect. Biggest fear is that we've done this for nothing. If we get all ready to go and we're up and started and then people start getting sick in the building, then what do we do? Do we shut down the school? Do we shut down parts of the school? Do we just shut school period across the province? That's the unknown and that's what's got everybody worried.

MG: That big unknown that's got everybody worried. In a few moments, we'll get to your calls. We want to hear about your concerns as well as your hopes for this most unusual school year. The number to call one 1-888-416-8333. Again, 1-888-416-8333. People have called this an experiment or a gamble in terms of opening schools. There's a strong push behind it. To talk more about that, we're joined by the economist Armine Yalnizyan. Armine, good morning.

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Why do we need kids back in school?

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Well, having a safe place for children to be is not only what's good for the kids, and certainly there's a huge part of that, but it's also that the economic crisis that is close on the heels of the health crisis will simply accelerate the longer this goes on. You know, moms contribute 40 percent of their family's incomes, according to economist Jennifer Robson. And families with children are the biggest block of purchasing power in Canada. And before the crisis hit, household spending was the biggest driver of GDP and growth. It was around the order of 57 percent of the economy. So if you knock out the ability of moms like Toni and other moms to be able to contribute to their family's economic well-being, then you're going to see two things happen. First of all, the economy is going to go into a longer, deeper economic contraction. And that will be because some women who have been able to continue working will not be able to continue working. And it will mean that there's you know, the other part of this is that child poverty will accelerate and this was one of the small victories of the last few years. And that's problematic for the longer term because we're going to be really relying on these kids as the population ages and they're not getting a good education and they're going to be really struggling with hunger and shelter as well. So we've got a real terrible problem coming down the pike.

MG: You and I have spoken over the course of this pandemic about that she-cession and the fact that women are being disproportionately impacted by the economic crisis that we're in right now in addition to that health crisis. Is your sense that governments are doing enough to, given what's at stake here for women particularly, but for everybody in the workforce, are governments doing enough to support successful school reopenings?

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Absolutely not. The biggest success story has been income support, but now that we're talking about reopening and we are reopening, we have, as Andre said, we've kind of squandered a few months here in figuring out how to do a safe reopening. And as Butch said, it might be all for not, if we have done all of this shutdown and yet we don't have national protocols for what to do when people get sick and schools. And, you know, it's not just schools, it's child care too. And in the childcare sector, schools are at least publicly funded. There's no payment at point of contact. But in child care centres, we treat it as a market choice. And there are tons of childcare centres that are shutting down. They are shuttering. They're opening up partially. They're not going to be able to survive because of lower user fees and higher costs. So the costs that Bush outlined and what has to be done to make sure it's safe and to keep class sizes small, which may not even be happening in two of our largest labour markets in Ontario and Quebec, even though those are the two jurisdictions with the highest number of cases. So we have got no national strategy on how to deal with what is a national problem, even though, as has been pointed out, there's localized higher rates of infection, but we don't have a strategy for that area, those areas either. So as I've been saying, I mean, I think I used the term she-cession with you in March in one of these shows and as I've been saying for months now, there is no recovery without a she-covery and there is no she-covery without childcare. And we are losing child care capacity, not dealing with the situation.

MG: That speaks to the anxiety that so many people are feeling across this country and what we want to hear from listeners this morning. Armine, great to talk to you, as always. Thank you.

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Armine Yalnizyan is an economist and the Atkinson Fellow on the Future of Workers. Is what she is saying squaring with what you're feeling? That's what we want to know and we want to hear from you. Andre Picard has been joining us over the course of this part of the show, and he'll be with us this morning as well to hear some of your calls and answer some of your concerns. Andre, just very briefly, do you think that the economic factor here is driving this grand reopening of schools?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I think it is in large part, and it should. You know, it's really important to have people working, and for people to work, they have to have child care, they have to have kids in school. And, you know, that's really essential to a functioning society and it's important for children's health, their mental health, et cetera. So a lot of reasons to do it and that's why it's so important to do it well.

MG: And that's why we want to hear from Canadians. The CBC News is next and then we want to hear from you. How are you feeling about back to school? Are you sending the kids back to school? Do you have a choice? Because as Armine was saying, so much of this is about being able perhaps to get back to work and to do that you need childcare. Are you doing home schooling? 1-888-416-8333. Again the number to call, 1-888-416-83333. Or you can tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. I'm Matt Galloway. This is a special back to school edition of The Current, No Easy Answers. Your calls, coming up on CBC Radio One.

[Music]

Back To Top »

Pandemic's opportunity to invest in education has been squandered, says epidemiologist

Guests: Andre Picard, Raywat Deonandan

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to a special back to school edition of The Current: No Easy Answers.

SOUNDCLIP

[School bell]

VOICE 1: It was all boring, the quarantine. I'm excited to see my new teachers and who's in my class.

VOICE 2: Getting back to school this week I am most excited to see my students. I think that was the hardest thing was talking to a screen.

VOICE 3: I'm bitter. They say if one percent gets sick, that's OK. But it's our kids.

VOICE 4: I would die with my kids going back and if they got sick? Just the thought of it makes me a little bit crazy.

MG: Here we are, six months after schools closed abruptly, life turned on its head for children and for all of us in some way. And now still in the midst of this pandemic, schools are reopening. It is a big experiment. The goal: to give children a return to normalcy and education and to let parents get back to work. All of this at the same time as we're trying to keep our kids and our communities safe. There are a lot of unknowns though, and a lot of fears as well. How do you feel about heading back to school? We want to hear from you. We're taking your calls all morning long and the lines are open. 1-888-416-8333. Again, 1-888-416-8333. Have you like the kid we heard earlier on, have been counting the sleeps down to return to school because quarantine has been boring? Do you have apprehensions about school during COVID? What is this going to mean in terms of a return to school for your family, for your work, for your health? And what are the questions that you still have? There are, it seems more questions than answers when it comes to this return to school. Give us a call. 1-888-416-8333 or you can tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. How do you feel about back to school?

[Music: theme]

MG: Some schools across the country have already opened, a number of them get set to open tomorrow or later this week and some in the weeks following. And so for students and parents and teachers and administrators, there are a lot of issues at play. And that's why we want to hear from you. 1-888-416-8333. And I have a couple of guests with us this morning to help take your calls. Andre Picard is the Global Mail's health columnist. He has covered just about every aspect of this pandemic and has joined us regularly throughout. He is in Montreal. And Raywat Deonandan is an epidemiologist and associate professor at the University of Ottawa. Thank you both for being here this morning.

RAYWAT DEONANDAN: Thank you.

MG: Raywat, given where the numbers stand right now, how much risk is there in sending kids back to school?

RAYWAT DEONANDAN: Oh, you start with an easy question, huh.

MG: It's the big question.

RAYWAT DEONANDAN: It's the big question. I mean, there's always going to be risks. What are the thresholds? It's unclear. Harvard has a couple of metrics. They have published. One is, if your incidence rate is 25 cases per 100000 population, then you are safe to open all across Canada. We're below that threshold. But is that the right threshold? I don't know. The idea is to have the community caseload as low as humanly possible before we open those schools. And another metric is look at the number of tests that come back positive, that percentage. And Harvard tells us that number should be less than five percent. And across Canada, it's about less than two percent even in the hot zone areas, as it were. So we're where probably we can be given what we have. So if you're going to open, I think now is probably the time.

MG: People are looking at jurisdictions that are already back in class. And of course, Quebec ahead of the curve in many ways when it came to opening schools. In that province, at least 46 schools have recorded at least one case of COVID-19 since they reopened. What should we make of that Raywat?

RAYWAT DEONANDAN: It was expected. We're going to see cases. Parents have to brace themselves for this. For me, the second half of that communication is the important part is what did we do after the case was detected? Was it suppressed? Was that ember extinguished before it became a forest fire? So as the weeks and months unroll, we should not panic. When we hear about cases in schools, we should take some some confidence if the second half of the message is that case was detected, but it was suppressed before it became a genuine outbreak. So let's just, you know, brace ourselves for this recurring news that's going to be part of our reality for the next few months.

MG: Andre Picard, you have a piece in The Globe and Mail this morning saying that the curve isn't flattening, it's creeping upward. What's going on that is leading people perhaps to let their guard down?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I think there's just a lot of pandemic fatigue. You know, we've been asked to make sacrifices for going on seven months now, and it's getting tiresome. It's nice out. You know, it's the the dog days of summer. People are trying to get their holidays in. They want to go to bars. They want to have fun. So there's all these dresses in society and we want to try and live our lives that I think we see that reflected in the rise in case numbers.

MG: Are you concerned then that what's happening in the community will then ultimately lead to cases appearing in school. That if people are having the backyard barbecues or going out to karaoke, that's going to manifest itself of cases in school.

ANDRE PICARD: Well there's no question that schools are part of our society. So, yes, that's and I've said this all along. The big factor is always the same one, is if there's no transmission in the community, then there's not going to be any in schools. So they're very interlinked. And that's why we you know, Dr. Deonandan mentioned that the Harvard metric, that's a really important one. How much COVID is there in society and that really makes it easier to put schools are harder if the numbers are too high.

MG: We're asking the question. It's a simple one, but it has a lot of nuance to it. How do you feel about back to school? The phone lines are open, 1-888-416-8333. Again, 1-888-416-8333. Hailey Chang lives in Toronto and is going into grade 5. Hailey, good morning.

HAILEY CHANG: Hi.

MG: Hey, it's Matt in Toronto. How are you?

HAILEY CHANG: I'm good. How are you?

MG: I'm well, thank you. Did you have a good summer?

HAILEY CHANG: Yeah.

MG: What did you do?

HAILEY CHANG: I was going to go to Taiwan to visit my aunt and my grandmother, but I couldn't because of COVID, because it's not safe. So I did some camps in my backyard and I hung out with my friends social distancing.

MG: Excellent. That sounds like a great summer. It sounds even better than mine. I didn't do any camping at all. So you're lucky. How are you feeling about going back to school?

HAILEY CHANG: I feel pretty excited because I get to see all my teachers again and I get to see all my friends. And because I haven't been to school since March. But I'm a bit nervous too because of the pandemic. But I'm feeling pretty safe. I think I'm going to be safe at school.

MG: Let me ask you about the time since school. What's it been like?

HAILEY CHANG: It's been pretty lonely and like I haven't been seeing like all my friends. I haven't been in a group and talking to them a lot, but I'm having a good time with my family.

MG: You miss your friends though?

HAILEY CHANG: Yeah.

MG: Yeah. Has it been kind of boring being at home all the time?

HAILEY CHANG: A bit, but I had two younger brothers, so I hang out with them a lot.

MG: And they're fun to be with?

HAILEY CHANG: Yeah.

MG: What's the most fun thing that you've been doing in your time off?

HAILEY CHANG: Like talking to my friends, like on Zoom or like an app called Messenger Kids.

MG: You said you're excited to go back to school in part to see your teachers. What do you like the most about school?

HAILEY CHANG: I like that they give you education and I like that I get to see my friends a lot.

MG: This is going to be a different kind of school year than the one that ended in March. How do you think school's going to be different this year?

HAILEY CHANG: I think because everyone has to wear a mask, everyone has to social distance and we have to put sanitizer really often and yeah.

MG: Do you think it's gonna be hard to socially distance from your friends?

HAILEY CHANG: Yeah because I kind of just really want to hug them when I see them again.

MG: It's gonna be hard to remember not to do that.

HAILEY CHANG: Yeah.

MG: Yeah. You said that you were sort of nervous as well. What are you most nervous about?

HAILEY CHANG: I'm nervous about because if I get sick, I love to see my grandparents and I see them really often. But I can't do that if I get sick and I'll miss them.

MG: Yeah. What about the mask wearing? Have you been thinking about wearing a mask all day?

HAILEY CHANG: Yeah.

MG: And what do you think about that.

HAILEY CHANG: I think I'm going to get used to that because I've bee to a camp already, but you have to wear a mask all the time. So I think I'm kind of getting used to it.

MG: They're kind of annoying, aren't they?

HAILEY CHANG: A bit.

MG: I mean, there's a lot of cool masks. I have a bunch of different ones. Do you have some neat masks that you can wear at least once?

HAILEY CHANG: Yeah. I have colourful ones.

MG: What's your favourite one?

HAILEY CHANG: My favourite one is this like blue colour. It's the colour of the ocean and I like the colour of the ocean.

MG: What would you say to other kids who might be getting ready to go back to school and like you, they're a little nervous about this? What would you say to them?

HAILEY CHANG: I would say then be careful, be safe and I hope you have a great school year.

MG: I hope you have a great school year, too, Hailey. Have fun.

HAILEY CHANG: Thank you.

MG: It's great to talk to you. Thank you very much.

HAILEY CHANG: You're welcome.

MG: Bye bye.

HAILEY CHANG: Bye.

MG: That's ten-year-old Hailey Chang. Kids we want to hear from you. If your parents say it's OK, you can call us, 1-888-416-8333. Also want to hear from those parents, teachers, administrators, educators. The number to call again, 1-888-416-8333. It's a special edition of The Current: No Easy Answers. How are you feeling about back to school? We have Andre Picard, Globe and Mail health columnist and Raywat Deonandan, epidemiologist in Ottawa. Andre, in a piece in today's paper, you talk about the concern that a lot of people have around outbreaks in schools or at the very least an increase in cases in schools. I was in your town in Montreal last week and that was the topic of discussion as students were heading back to school. In the piece you talk about the difference between an outbreak and single cases. Why is that distinction important?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, because we have single cases in society. So kids are getting infected now, not in large numbers, but that's happening. And what we really want to eliminate, were we not able, I don't think at this point to eliminate the spread of coronavirus entirely, but we can limit outbreak. So if you have one kid in school, the response of the school is really important because you don't want to suddenly have 20 or 50 or 100 kids. So that's really essential. So what we're seeing in Quebec, I've been back seven to 10 days. The schools in Quebec is that there's about nine schools that have one case. There's a student apparent group that says it's 84 schools. But regardless, it's a relatively small number given there's more than 3000 schools and they all seem to be single cases. So it's we're not seeing a situation where, you know, in Quebec City, we know there's a karaoke bar, 73 people were infected in one bar. That's what we don't want to happen in schools, so that response is really important.

MG: Raywat Deonandan, what would be considered an outbreak? I guess this is one of the questions that parents have is if there are some individual cases in schools, how does that escalate or does it escalate?

RAYWAT DEONANDAN: So I think the definition that most public health units are using is if there are two cases that are linked epidemiologically that counts as an outbreak. So they got them from the same source or from each other. If they came in individually from outside it's not that an outbreak, it's just independent cases. That's you know, that's some technical nonsense that no one cares about. What we care about is what are the procedures put into place to prevent those cases from becoming a genuine outbreak? And that's where the mask wearing, the distancing and the communications really come to bear. So I've been watching carefully what the communications plans are across the country. And I hope that more investment and attention is paid to that aspect of this unfolding plan, because getting parents on board depends on transparency and proper communications. And I think that's beginning short shrift for the most part up till now.

MG: I want to get to the calls, but just the next stage in that is what happens if there is an outbreak? Do you send the kids in the class home? Do you send the entire school home? What unfolds then?

RAYWAT DEONANDAN: This is where it's important to have a cohorting approach with small class sizes and individual cells or groups of classes separated from the rest of the school, staggered hours, that kind of thing. That way we can take out that one cell or cohort, send them home for one or two weeks as we investigate further. That way, the school system can keep on rolling. If there's cross contamination, you run the risk of having to shut down the entire school for a couple of weeks. But most of the school boards that the plan is to be able to take out one class or two classes to investigate while the situation continues to unfold. But yeah, at some point, some students will have to be sent home for one or two weeks.

MG: That's Raywat Deonandan, he's an epidemiologist in Ottawa. Andre Picard, Globe and Mail health columnist joining us as well. My name is Matt Galloway. Special edition of The Current. How are you feeling as we head back to school? 1-888-416-8333 is the number to call. Anna is on the line with us. Anna, good morning.

ANNA: Good morning.

MG: You are a teacher in the province of Ontario. How are you feeling about heading back to school?

ANNA: Well, I was feeling great. I teach three four in the Grand Jury District School Board in Brantford. I had my whole classroom set up, although my first day of school gifts on the children's desks, made textbooks, everything ready to go. I spent all summer programming and most of the parents knew or thought that I was going to be their child's teacher. However, last night I just was informed that my position is lost because they've now merged my class. Well, they dissolved my class and they're merging it with other classes in the school to make larger class sizes. And I should also add, I have the highest, well almost the highest seniority in my school and a 10 year contract, like permanent contract. So and this happens to me.

MG: So what does that mean? Your position is lost and that they've dissolved the class. Can you explain what those two things mean?

ANNA: Sure. So they thought our numbers were low at our school because some students had chosen to go online. So they've merged classes to make larger class sizes, but they've given students who have chosen to go online the option to return back to school at different points through the year. Now, if our schools numbers go up because those online students have chosen to go back to a person learning, then there's a chance that I might get my class back.

MG: In the meantime, what happens? You had this whole class setup, you we're going to be teaching a class that you had been preparing for. What happens now?

ANNA: Well, for me, my situation is I have French qualification, and because our classes merged, we lost a teacher. That teacher was the school's French teacher because he had the lowest seniority. Now, because I have FSL qualifications, I am now forced to teach French to almost the whole school, Grade four, five, six, seven, eight and I'll also be teaching a special needs class. So now my exposure just goes way up because instead of teaching my lovely little grade three four class that I've been preparing for and have spent hundreds, if not thousands of dollars on, now I have to up my exposure to more than half of the school and teach French. So what I decided to do, because I really don't want to do that, is I think I'm going to declare voluntarily, I'm going to declare myself surplus and teach online. Now, if I could add to that, I asked if I teach online. What grade will I be teaching? And no one is able to tell me so. H.R. has no idea what grade I'll be teaching. I could be put in eighth grade. I. I've never taught that before. So I'll be. I could potentially be learning new material, new curriculum every single night of the week, every day preparing lessons trying to scour the earth for all these resources and it's just a nightmare. And to find this out last night, just days before the students walk through the doors is unreal and unfair.

MG: That's a lot to be put on your plate and something that we're hearing from other teachers across this country. I appreciate you speaking with us this morning and good luck in whatever unfolds, Anna. Thank you.

ANNA: Thank you very much. Have a great day.

MG: And you. Anna is a teacher in Ontario. I should mention, we did invite the education ministers for Ontario and Quebec to join us today to talk about the return to school. Both of them declined to speak with us this morning. I'm Matt Galloway. This is a special edition of The Current: No Easy Answers. How are you feeling about heading back to school? You can reach us at 1-888-416-8333 or tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. Hearing from some of you on Twitter. Chris in Toronto wrote, "As parents of a seven and four-year-old, both of us being working professionals, we need school to open as soon as possible. The longest March break ever needs to come to an end." I think a lot of parents probably feel the same way. Rosheen Lawson of Ottawa wrote, "I'm anxious about my 16 year old going back to school. We've just recently brought my 82-year-old mother to live with us, having to balance her physical safety with my teen's emotional health. She struggled emotionally in shutdown and needs school. I am anxious for sure." Again, 1-888-416-8333 is the number to reach us on. Sharon Angeconeb is the principal of Dennis Franklin Cromarty High School in Thunder Bay. Sharon, good morning to you.

SHARON ANGECONEB: Good morning.

MG: How are you feeling about heading back to school? Why don't you just tell us first, I guess just a little bit about the school that you're the principal of.

SHARON ANGECONEB: OK, so Dennis Franklin Cromarty High School here in Thunder Bay. Our students come from the remote fly-in community from the north, 24 communities. So they don't have high schools, access to high school in their communities, so they come in to Thunder Bay, to Dennis Franklin Cromarty in order to get their high school education.

MG: And so given that with school getting set to open up, how are you feeling?

SHARON ANGECONEB: We're actually quite frustrated. We've had to delay, on Friday, we had to make the announcement again that we were delaying our school reopening. We were supposed to open on Tuesday, but now we're going to have to delay it for another week. So we're opening on the 14th.

MG: And what will you be opening as? I mean, there are these you know hybrid models and in class and then online. What is school going to look like for you?

SHARON ANGECONEB: It's going to be strictly online for the first quadmester.

MG: And why do you need to do that?

SHARON ANGECONEB: Well, for one thing, we cannot guarantee safety for our students if they were to come out and do an in-person learning because they have to boarding homes. We have to find boarding homes for them. Everytime they come out we have to make sure that we have a home that's ready to take them, but because of COVID that is proving to be very difficult. And we don't have the means to make sure that will provide whatever safety measures.

MG: We talk about the digital divide in this country, where there is high speed Internet access for some, but not all.

SHARON ANGECONEB: Yes.

MG: What are the challenges that you and your students will face with remote online learning?

SHARON ANGECONEB: Well, the most basic thing, we don't have the Chromebooks we had ordered months ago. They still have not arrived. So they, our students do not have access to devices and they do not have access to reliable Internet in their home communities. So in order to kind of try and come up with a plan for them, we wanted to see about setting up learning centres in their home communities and having them and providing a safe place for them to be able to do the work. Right now, a lot of the homes, as I'm sure you're aware of, all of the homes up north are overcrowded. Being able to and if you have siblings and they're all trying to get on Internet to do their schoolwork, it makes it very difficult. So what we're trying to do is trying to set up learning spaces in these communities. But the communities themselves, they do not have, there's overcrowding in the homes, overcrowding in workspaces. You know, so they're looking at things that renovating churches and, you know, things like that and gymnasiums and trying to set up learning spaces. It's very difficult, very challenging and honestly it's frustrating.

MG: I was going to say I can hear it in your voice. In the last minute and a half or so that we have, how did, like how does this happen? Where should the funding have come from to ensure that you're not in this bind?

SHARON ANGECONEB: DFC is a federally funded school. We're a private school. We do get some resources from the province. And for instance, they were able to order us some, provide us some PPE, but we still do not have the financial commitment from the government. The announcement that I'm sure you're aware of, they're for the communities, but since we're off reserve, we don't qualify for those.

MG: So it's like you fall through the cracks.

SHARON ANGECONEB: Yes. Yes, very much so.

MG: Where's that going to leave your students? I mean you're a leader in the school and you care about the students. Are you concerned about what's going to happen to them in this seven plus weeks where they're going to be learning online or perhaps not learning online because they don't have the tools to be able to learn online?

SHARON ANGECONEB: Yes, I'm very frustrated. And you know what, we're trying to do our best to support the parents, the community leaders and of course, the students. We are engaging with them online and, you know, this coming week, we'll be doing a variety of orientation activities just online for them just to try and keep everyone's hopes up. Right?

MG: I wish you the best of luck. You're in a really difficult situation and school is important for all students. But those students that you help lead really need your attention. Thank you for joining us and good luck.

SHARON ANGECONEB: Thank you for the opportunity.

MG: Sharon Angeconebė is the principal of Dennis Franklin Cromarty High School. It's a First Nations high school in Thunder Bay, Ontario. We are taking your calls this morning on a special edition of The Current: No Easy Answers. And the reason that we called the series that is because on the face of it, there are no easy answers. What happens in this back to school scenario in the midst of a pandemic? Where as you heard perhaps the technology isn't there for online learning, some students are concerned about going back. Some teachers are concerned about heading back into school and parents feel as though they're forced into this bind, where perhaps to get back to work, they need to send kids back to school. You can let us know your thoughts. 1-888-416-8333. How are you feeling about back to school? 1-888-416-8333. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current. We're back in 90 seconds. Stay with us.

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MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to a special edition of The Current: No Easy Answers, Back to School Edition. We have a couple of guests with us. Globe and Mail health columnist Andre Picard in Montreal. Epidemiologist Raywat Deonandan in Ottawa. And we want to hear from you. We are going right across the country over the course of this morning asking what seems like a simple question. It's not. How are you feeling about back to school? This is the start of a school year like no other in the midst of a year like no other. And so are you excited? Are you worried? What's your fall going to look like? What are you doing when it comes to going back to school? You can call us at 1-888-416-8333 or tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. And on the line from Toronto is Joanne P. Joanne. Good morning.

JOANNE P.: Good morning.

MG: How are you feeling as a parent with a child heading back to school?

JOANNE P.: Well, I think I'm about as frustrated as the teacher and the principal we just heard from. I have a daughter who is heading into Grade nine, she has an intellectual disability and she has the she was given the same schedule as all the other high school students in Toronto, which is every other morning in class and then the rest of the time. So it's two morning, two or three mornings a week in school and the rest of the time she is line. She doesn't learn online. She doesn't, she learns differently. She needs one to one support. She she requires her peers and modelling from her peers. And, you know, while I am absolutely you know, I'm concerned, of course, about this, about the virus. I am at this point very concerned about her mental health and her social health. She's been out of school like all children since March, but she doesn't connect online through social media with peers. She actually you know, she spends a lot of time with me and she just really needs to be back in school learning all day, every day, if you know sort of the things that she needs. Yeah. Anyway.

MG: It sounds really.

JOANNE P.: And I work full time. I'm a postsecondary teacher and I work full time at home. So, you know, she's spent an awful lot of time in April, May and June on YouTube.

MG: And so, I mean, in that situation, I mean, again, this is the situation that a number of parents find themselves in. You work full time, if she's that ostensibly doing online learning, even in those, you know, the other half of the day or the second day when she's not in school, you might not have time to be able to help her out with that online learning.

JOANNE P.: No, I can't. I mean, I took part of a leave. M job was very accommodating and gave me sort of a partial leave in May and June, but I can continue to do that. I mean I'm a single mom and you know, even having someone come into it, so here's the other thing. If I were to ask someone even a peer to come into the home to facilitate, the schedule as such, that it's a four day schedule. So every week is different. So one week, it's Monday, Wednesday, Friday, the next week, it's Tuesday, Thursday. Throw in a statutory holiday or a PA day and it all changes again. So I, anyway, I'm as frustrated as as the teachers and the principals. I, at this point, I have no idea what school will look like and it starts a week today.

MG: What is, just before I let you go, what are the answers or what is one answer that you would want to get from, we'd hope to speak with a minister of education in Ontario, and he declined to speak with us this morning. But if you are able to speak with him or those who are in charge, what would you want from them?

JOANNE P.: Yeah. So I do know in the other board, the other school board in Toronto, that she could be in a single classroom with a small cohort all day, every day. That I was told there wasn't the funding for that. And the funding that is for that goes to the high risk areas in the northeast and northwest end of the city, which, of course, they need it, but there's also other you know high needs and, you know, the reality is my my daughter needs to be accommodated along with other children with other intellectual and physical disabilities. And I really feel that she, along with others, are being lost in this. I mean, because they're a smaller group and not necessarily a, you know, maybe a less vocal group. I'm not really sure, but it's you know, I think there are some solutions. Making larger classrooms and collapsing like the last teacher, it's like oh my goodness. We need smaller classrooms and to get creative.

MG: I wish you the best of luck. This is a really difficult situation. And the worst thing as a parent that that you can think of is, as you say, when it comes to school, your child gets lost in that system. Joanne, thanks.

JOANNE P.: Thank you.

MG: Joanne P. is a parent in Toronto. Andre Picard, a health columnist for The Globe and Mail, is with us this morning. Andre, how prepared do you think our schools for students with special needs, given the circumstances that we're all in right now?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I think you just heard from the parent. I think they've been forgotten. That's quite correct, that this there's a lot of kids with so-called special needs, with learning disabilities, some physical disabilities who need to accommodations in school. And they, I think, have been forgotten, especially in these complex scheduling issues that you just heard about. It makes it doubly doubly difficult. And, you know, online learning is not for everyone. It's not a panacea, particularly difficult for kids with learning disabilities. So there's so many issues that we should have spent more time thinking about and tackling and as we've talked about, we've just left everything till the last minute. And people, the kids are being left by the wayside as a result.

MG: Raywat Deonandan, epidemiologist in Ottawa, is there advice that you have for parents of students with special needs?

RAYWAT DEONANDAN: Oh boy, I have no advice. This is infuriating. This crisis is also an opportunity. The opportunity has been squandered. The opportunity to have made investments in long term educational care for our students. So I'm a big fan of saying spend the money now on small class sizes, on additional educational care, on special attention to special needs kids in low income areas. This will pay dividends in the future long beyond when the pandemic is over. We still have time to do these things as a society. But as far as advice for individual parents go. There are lots of resources online. Find resources in your community, create communities and networks of your own. Ultimately, unfortunately, it's falling more and more on the individual citizen to soft organise to fill some of these gaps that the state has failed to fill, unfortunately.

MG: That's Raywat Deonandan. He's an epidemiologist in Ottawa. My name is Matt Galloway. This is a special edition of The Current: No Easy Answers. How are you feeling about heading back to school? 1-888-416-8333 is the number. It's kind of a national conversation. Taking your calls right across this country. 1-888-416-8333. You can tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. Susan Wang is on the line from Montreal. Susan, good morning.

SUSAN WANG: Yeah, good morning, Matt. Thanks for that.

MG: How are you feeling about kids heading back to school?

SUSAN WANG: Worried.

MG: Worried?

SUSAN WANG: Yeah.

MG: What are you worried about?

SUSAN WANG: It's a complicated issue. I think I followed the, I'm in Quebec, so I followed the government every time. And before they open school, I can't understand like the government needs reopen businesses and they want the kids to have education, normal education. But yeah, even like federal or provincial, all the governments they said, the second wave is coming. And for the virus thing, there is too much unknown. So I think like to ask the parents is to send people back to school, it's like not really responsible.

MG: And you don't have the option in Quebec of online school unless somebody is sick, right?

SUSAN WANG: Yeah, that's the problem. Like by the law, if we don't have, like, from medicine, we have to send kids back to school. We can see from the education minister or the school board, we can not see the detailed procedures what happens if the kid gets sick. Example, if there is a kid is sick in school, in a class, decided they would take the kids back home to do the tests. They will note it like the person who close to this kid and that's all. What will after? Who take care about like the class? Who take care about the school and other kids? And how about this exception, there's no details seen about that. And the government's only issue which kind of thing, you can get the medical paper. It's like most family that's impossible.

MG: I was going to say these are the questions that so many parents, I think, across the country are asking themselves. We have so many people who are trying to call. I'm going to let you go to try to get to as many calls as we can, but Susan, good luck and thank you.

SUSAN WANG: Yeah, sure. Thank you. Bye.

MG: Susan Wang, parent of two children in Montreal. As I mentioned, we're getting some notes on social media. The people are having difficulty getting through because so many people are calling. This is an issue that touches so many people across the country. So do keep trying to get in touch. You can reach us at 1-888-416-8333 or tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. Sean is on the line from Orangeville. Hello, Sean.

SEAN: Hi Matt.

MG: How are you?

SEAN: I'm doing really good. How are you doing?

MG: I'm great. You're going into grade 8? Is this correct?

SEAN: Yes, I am.

MG: All right. And how are you feeling about heading back to school?

SEAN: I'm a bit nervous. I'm going to a new school this year, but yeah, overall pretty good.

MG: So why are you going to a new school for grade 8?

SEAN: Well, my family decided for me or my brother that it wasn't, the Ford government's plan to go back to school wasn't safe, so we were thinking about doing online then we kind of realized, me and my brother would really benefit from the social aspect of going back to school. So my family decided we're going back to private school this year.

MG: And so you're leaving the public system and going into private school?

SEAN: Yes, I am.

MG: How do you feel about that?

SEAN: Oh, it's a bit interesting because my mom's a teacher in the public school education, so I think it might be a tougher decision for her. I'm a bit nervous. Yeah.

MG: But for you, I mean and for your family, this was a decision that was made because you don't think that the plan that's in place right now is a plan that's going to keep you healthy.

SEAN: No. All we've seen is like wear a mask and here, you could use your own way to fix the problem. Like my school, are kind of on the class size eight, which is like I think like three is like one third of what my class size usually. And to have proper ventilation. So it's going to be nice and proper social distancing.

MG: What are you most nervous about in terms of going to a new school? Grade 8's a big grade.

SEAN: Yeah, I'm just nervous because like grade 8, like my grade 8, you already know, you have your friends there. You've been to that school a long time. You know, everybody. It's like it's a completely new book and it's so far off into your school, your elementary school career.

MG: Yeah. Do you know anybody who's going to the school?

SEAN: Nope.

MG: You sound like a pretty social guy. So I think you'll be okay, but it is something it'll be an adventure, certainly. Sean, good to talk to you. Thank you and good luck.

SEAN: All right. Thank you very much. Have a nice day. Bye.

MG: And you. Sean's a grade 8 student in Orangeville, Ontario. Andre Picard, are you concerned that there will be a lot of families like Sean's who say that what is being offered in the scenarios in public boards across this country is leading them out of public education?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I think there's a real concern that there's an undermining of public education. People who couldn't afford it are flocking to private schools. We know that people who can afford it are doing online learning. They're creating their own bubbles with tutors, etc.. So what? Well, the real risk here is this growing inequality, public schools being even further decimated. And I think that should concern everyone in society.

MG: What's the answer to that then? I mean, there's a long piece in the Globe and Mail this weekend about that and about how this breaks down on racial lines and class lines. What's the answer to prevent something like that from happening?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, the answer is to invest properly in education. You know, this notion we have to have smaller class sizes. Why are people going to private schools? Because they perceive it as safer, because the class sizes are smaller. There's no reason we can't do this in our public schools. You heard earlier, you know, that this is this is an essential element not only for safety, but for better learning. I think we know the countries that are doing best with the back to school. They had small classes beforehand and they have even smaller classes. Now, this is so essential to good learning, to integrating everyone across society, regardless of class, race, ability, etc.. Oh, this stuff is so fundamental. It's such a good investment in our health. And the pandemic, I think, is creating an opportunity that we're maybe missing to fix stuff that's been problematic for a long time.

MG: Andre Picard is the health columnist with the Globe and Mail. We're taking your calls this morning. How are you feeling about heading back to school? The number is 1-888-416-8333. Mike's on the line from Ottawa. Mike, good morning.

MIKE: Hi there, Matt.

MG: You, I mean it's a bit like looking into the future. Your senior kindergartener child went back to school in the French Catholic system last week?

MIKE: Yeah, that's exactly right. He went back to school on Thursday.

MG: And so how's it been for him and for you?

MIKE: Well, we were very much looking forward to it. Our main concern really was, you know, he's a bit of a shy kid, so we were looking forward to him going back to school for his, you know, mainly as social development and his emotional and cognitive development. And the thing that we found that or a bit worried about is that he's he's gone to the classroom. We knew he'd have to wear a mask to get to the classroom and maybe in common areas in the school. But our understanding was for kids that age that he would be able to take off his mask in the classroom. And the thing we've heard now is that they're really enforcing the mask wearing in the room. So they're worried about him, like reading the cues of other people when they're speaking, because at that these are still learning by now. She's also very shy. So we're a bit worried about him not talking too much. And the other thing is, you know, as a boy, you really need to run around and be active and and they're encouraged to just stay in their seat and just sit there all day. That's what he's telling us anyway. And we're a bit worried about him not liking school anymore.

MG: Do you understand the position that the schools are in in terms of all of those rules and regulations that they need? They're worried about cases appearing. They're worried about the community spread and so they need kids to, you know, as many people as possible to wear a mask, but also to eat as you know best as possible to try to continue to physically distance from each other.

MIKE: Well, I totally understand that, but I thought that the whole planning of reopening the schools, was designed to prevent this spread by creating cohorts, by keeping kids together and not mixing between classrooms. So I thought at least in his classroom, to be able to move around and do what he needs to do so that they can keep his attention to to keep the focus on play based learning, which is my understanding, is that the curriculum at that age is based on. So that doesn't seem to be happening. I'm just worried that for boys at that age, it's going to be difficult for them to keep liking school.

MG: How does he feel about it? I mean, it's only early days, but how does he feel about being back in school?

MIKE: Well, you're right. It's only been two days and he's already telling us that he hates wearing the mask all day. It hurts his ears, so we're trying to find, you know, better fitting masks and stuff like that. But he also he really doesn't like sitting at his at his seat all day. He tells us that all he's doing is learning and not playing. And then, you know, you do learn by playing. But anyway, he's not having a good experience right now.

MG: I hope it improves for him. Mike, it's good to speak with you. Thanks for your call.

MIKE: Thank you.

MG: 1-888-416-8333. How are you feeling about heading back to school? A special edition of The Current. As students, some are already back in school, as Mike's son is, and some are heading back to school this week, next week and in the weeks ahead. Maybe in class, maybe online, maybe a mixture of the two. Denise in Timmins is on the line with us. Denise, good morning.

DENISE: Good morning.

MG: You have four kids heading back to school?

DENISE: Yes, I do. I have two in the English board and I have two in the French board.

MG: After a long break, are you happy to get them back to school or how are you feeling?

DENISE: Well, for their safety, I'm happy with them at home. But unfortunately we all have to get into our routine of working to pay bills like everybody across the world. My husband works 14 days in and 14 days out. I've also picked up a job, hopefully, that I'm able to do day shift to be home for the children when they get off the bus and able to make sure they get on the bus. So to me, this is perfect. My dilemma is, is there buses that are set out for them? And I also questioning the issue, if I mean, there's still flus andthere's still colds. It may not be the corona, but as the child gets sick, as a sickness or whatever, it could be chicken pox, it could be whatever children carry. How does this affect our whole household? Does all my children have to stay home? Does my husband have to stay someplace else when he does come home on his 14 days? Myself, do I have to stay home? Cause I mean, somebody has to care for these children. I have a babysitter in place, but it doesn't make up for the issue of what's the testing going to be when my child does go back. And I want to know what kind of testing they have, saliva testing and they also have the one that they put in the nose, which I'm against, because it will irritate the brain tissue in the back. And I don't want my children having that layer busted.

MG: Well, and to your point, I mean, I'm going to ask our epidemiologist guest in just a moment, but I mean, you know this with four kids, kids in the winter, sniffles and coughs and a fever and it's it's all just part of, you know, being in school with a lot of other kids, what happens if kids have those symptoms and they're not COVID symptoms, but they might be conflated with COVID?

DENISE: So how do I go about this? Like how do I, let's say it's just a cold, like what do I do with this? Is there still a test for them to go back? Do I have to keep all my children home if one falls sick?

MG: Let's ask our epidemiologist. Denise, thanks for your call.

DENISE: Thank you.

MG: Raywat Deonandan, what advice would you have for Denise or other parents who might be asking those same questions? Again, you know, kids can be a bit like a, you know, a germ factory when they head off to school or day-care and they come back with a sniffle and everybody's got the sniffles. In this situation, it's different than in years past.

RAYWAT DEONANDAN: That's right. There a lot to unpack in that question. First of all, let's address the brain tickling aspect of the COVID swab tests. That's not true. The swab does not touch your brain stem at all. It has to get through tissues and bone and all kinds of things before that's an issue.

MG: Thank you for addressing that.

RAYWAT DEONANDAN: Second of all, yeah, symptoms are critical here. So we know that this is an asymptomatic pandemic and that children are more likely to be asymptomatic, which is why the school openings can be so problematic. However, if you have symptoms like a runny nose, sneezing or coughing, you're more likely to project droplets further, so you're more likely to be a transmitter of the disease. Right? It's not to say that asymptomatic people are not transmitters, but symptomatic people are more likely to be transmitters. So we try to keep symptomatic people out of the school if possible. So parents have to monitor their kids for the coughing and sneezing. Keep them home if they can. But if you've got a common cold, you've also got some coughing, sneezing going on, which is not COVID necessarily. But if you're a COVID carrier who is asymptomatic and you have the common cold and you're sneezing, you can still project those droplets further. See how complicated it gets?

MG: It is.

RAYWAT DEONANDAN: Which is, yeah, which is why it's important to keep the symptomatic people, whether it's an adult or a child, out of the school system. So what does this mean? It means, unfortunately, that this has to be a society level endeavour. Employers have to be on board with allowing their employees to take some days off if their kid is sent home and have to be taken care of. So, yeah, this is it gets complicated very quickly and I hope governments are incentivizing employers to allow workers to take time off to care for the children who must remain home.

MG: I guess the thing that we're hearing, the thing that people are concerned about is that that feels a bit like a house of cards. That you could have somebody who has, you know, a low grade sniffle or cough for weeks at a time. Are they not going to be able to go back to school? What happens to the parents who then need to be home? Are they going to be out of work? Doi you understand the dilemma that this could force upon parents?

RAYWAT DEONANDAN: Yeah. Absolutely. And I'm not sure what's going to happen. Right. So right now, the rules across many boards is if you've got symptoms, keep your kid at home, but you can have symptoms for a long time. That's right. So we have to have a lot of testing. The way out of this is a lot of testing. And I'm hoping that we're going to deploy more testing capacity in schools when those rapid tests come, especially the saliva test. That's going to help a lot. So I'm hoping Health Canada can expedite that into our classrooms faster.

MG: I'm going to try and squeeze one more call in to this half hour. Elaine is on the line from London, Ontario. Elaine, good morning.

ELAINE: Good morning.

MG: How are you feeling about the return to school?

ELAINE: Well, my concern is on the other end. That if a kid is left home, I probably will have grandchildren. Then it's always been my practice to get to the school, get their work and get them to get it done. I do not have a working computer. Is that going to be available?

MG: And you'd be called into service and you wonder because the kids are going to be needing to do that work online, whether you'd be able to help out or how you'd be able to help out?

ELAINE: Yeah. I could do it very well. I've worked as an education assistant before, so I don't think I have any problem.

MG: It's just the technology.

ELAINE: Yeah. So they'll be in grade 4 and I fully believe that they should put the kids back to March.

MG: That they'd?

ELAINE: Like everybody's kids back to March because they missed a heck of a lot of school.

MG: So you don't start with a new academic year, you rewind and pick up where you left off in March?

ELAINE: Yeah, I have one especially that would be a great need.

MG: That's an interesting idea. I haven't heard a lot about that, but people are wondering how much was lost in those six months. That's interesting. Elaine, good luck and we'll try to get some answers out of your question. Thank you.

ELAINE: Thank you very much.

MG: Andre Picard, health columnist for The Globe, how prepared do you think schools are to switch between online and in-person learning if somebody sent home? Is that going to be possible? Is the system flexible, nimble enough for that yet?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, flexible and nimble are not words we use in describing Canada's education system. So I think the answer to that would have to be a definite no. But that being said, I think it varies tremendously. And I think that's one of the frustrations of parents, is that the rules are very different from one school board to the other. The organisation is very different. The rules are different. There's a real you know, I think in the whole show what we've heard the word frustration over and over again because of that parents really want some clarity on what are the rules. What happens when somebody is infected? How often do I have to study at home? It's just not clear. The schedules are alternate from week to week. It doesn't make it easy. It almost makes it impossible for a lot of people to work.

MG: And yet school starts or has already started for many students. We'll hear more about this as we continue to move across the country. In the meantime, that brings us to the end of the program in Ontario, Quebec and eastern Nunavut. Thank you to all of you who called in or sent tweets. We know that the phone lines have been jammed. So I appreciate your patience in trying to get through. Thanks as well to Raywat Deonandan, epidemiologist at the University of Ottawa. You've been very generous for the last couple of hours. I appreciate your time. Globe and Mail health columnist Andre Picard is staying with us. We hit the Central Time Zone next. This is great. We're kind of moving across the country from time zone to time zone, speaking with Canadians about the return to school. If you want to stay with us and hear more of the national conversation around heading back to school, you can tune in with the CBC Listen app. Tomorrow on the program, we're going to bring you a documentary. I was in Montreal last week as school began there. Hung out with some parents who are heading back to school with their kids, walked to school with some, was in the house from a safe distance as people were getting ready. And you'll hear the concerns and the excitement that was in those households. That's tomorrow on the program. We'll also talk about supporting young people with mental health concerns as they return to school in the pandemic. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to this special Back to School edition of The Current: No Easy Answers.

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Sept. 7, 2020 episode transcript

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