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The AIH Transcript for September 02, 2020

Hosts: Helen Mann and Chris Howden

HELEN MANN: Hello, I’m Helen Mann, sitting in for Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I’m Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

HM: Naming his poison. Confirmation comes that a nerve agent with a history in Soviet spy attacks was used on a prominent Russian opposition leader. We reach an advisor to Alexei Navalny, who says he's not surprised.

CH: Return, addressed. After resisting it for years, Austria will offer citizenship to the descendants of Jewish refugees who fled the Nazis — a move that leaves potential applicants with a difficult choice.

HM: Dorm clouds. More than one-thousand students at the University of Alabama have tested positive for COVID-19 since this semester began — just a couple weeks ago. One student tells us it's a "scary" time on campus.

CH: Nothing but net. A German veterinarian has won a court challenge allowing her and other non-male people to participate in a cherished — but until now unfairish — local fishing tradition. Now she too can leap into a crowded brook and try to net the biggest trout.

HM: Liner notes. Enormous, virtually empty cruise ships are haunting the English Channel. Now a Dorset ferry operator's got a side hustle running 'ghost' ship tours.

CH: And...talon show. Chico the parrot is stuck in a British wildlife park, but his career is really going places — now that his impressions of Lady Gaga and Beyonce have established him as brilliant celebrity imbirdsonator.

CH: “As It Happens”, the Wednesday edition. Radio that can tell he doesn't know the lyrics verbatim — so he just parrot-phrases.

Part one: Navalny updates, University of Alabama outbreak, German women fisherman

Canada COVID vaccine

Guest: Vladimir Milov

CH: Germany says there's no question Alexei Navalny was poisoned with Novichok. There are, however, several pressing questions for the Russian government. Last month, Mr. Navalny, Russia's most vocal critic of Vladimir Putin, was airlifted to Germany after falling ill from an apparent poisoning. He remains in a medically-induced coma. German authorities said today they have, quote, "unequivocal evidence" that Mr. Navalny was poisoned with Novichok. The military-grade nerve agent made headlines in 2018 after an ex-Russian spy and his daughter were poisoned in the U.K. Russian intelligence agents were blamed for that attack. Today, Germany demanded that the Russian government provide some answers. Vladimir Milov is a close advisor to Alexei Navalny. We reached him in Moscow.

HM: Mr. Milov, let me ask you, first of all, your reaction to this news that Alexei Navalny was indeed poisoned, and that the substance used was a Novichok, the nerve agent?

VLADIMIR MILOV: Well, we have been definitely shocked two weeks ago, when the first news about the poisoning came in, but we were definitely not surprised to hear about the Novichok. Because of the whole, you know, clinical picture of the poisoning had reflected the possibility of nerve agent being used of a military-grade. Actually, the way he was poisoned it excludes any accident. It was most likely a deliberate act using military-grade nerve agents. So today's news was hardly a surprise.

HM: What can you tell us about Mr. Navalny's condition? How is he doing right now?

VM: Well, the German medics say that he's in a pretty stable but difficult condition, his recovery might take quite some time. We have previous examples of poisonings of major Vladimir Putin's opponents, like Vladimir Kara-Murza or Petr Verzilov, who was essentially poisoned two years ago and spent a month in the same Charite clinic in Berlin with similar symptoms. It took a month for Verzilov to recover. And he thinks, he says now, that he completely lost his memory. He does not remember anything about this particular month in his life. So we do not expect fast changes. We're just happy to hear that there is no immediate threat to Alexei Navalny’s life. He’s actually he's a very strong man with very good health. So we have faith that he will recover sooner or later and will come back to us as normal.

HM: Listeners may recall that Novichok was the agent that was used against Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia in Salisbury, England, a case that, of course, got international attention. What does it say to you that this substance would be used again in such a brazen way?

VM: Well, first, just for your listeners to understand, this is the stuff that they got are valuable. Because under the International Chemical Weapons Convention, they have reported that they explicitly liquidated all the stock of chemical weaponry that the Soviet Union and Russia leader possessed. Novichok is a nerve agent, which was developed in the very late period, late Soviet Union time, under the veil of secrecy. So the government explicitly denies that it was ever under development. Only the international intelligence services know about it. So it's totally not surprising that they keep using what they got. And it's also, unfortunately, pretty effective. Just a very, very limited contact with a very small amount of the substance can bring lethal consequences.

HM: The German chancellor, Angela Merkel said today, and I'm quoting, It is now clear Alexei Navalny is the victim of a crime. He was meant to be silenced. Tell me what you think of her reaction to this news?

VM: I think it was a very, very strong reaction. Right now, I think there is a lot of uniformity in the international reaction. People understand that Navalny was a major political opponent of Putin in the past years. So there is no one else but Putin who is directly interested in silencing and removing him, particularly given a lot of stuff, plunging Putin's approval ratings, upcoming federal parliamentary election next year, where Putin is expected to have a lot of trouble. I will just remind you, if you allow me, that you know, more than five years ago, there was another political murder of a major Putin's opponent, and my former coauthor and colleague, Boris Nemtsov. This happened also just a little over a year ahead of scheduled federal parliamentary elections with clear purpose to destroy the capability of the opposition to strongly perform and challenge Putin at the federal elections.

HM: The Kremlin has responded to this announcement from Germany by calling for a full exchange of information. Beyond Germany's word, is there further evidence that Novichok is the agent that was used?

VM: The way German authorities are expressing confidence right now, because Germans, [chuckling] normally, they are very diplomatic. They're very cautious in the language they use, particularly against Putin, given all these, you know, economic and commercial ties between two countries. That tells you a lot.

HM: You know, in the case of the Skripals, it was seen to be especially audacious that the attack happened on UK soil. It also made it easier for the UK to reprimand Russia. In this instance, the apparent poisoning happened on Russian soil. I'm just, you know, wondering, the world community may be outraged, but what kind of recourse or pressure can they put on the Kremlin?

VM: First, I think it's very important to conduct an international, independent international investigation of what happened because Navalny’s currently on German soil, with dangerous toxins in his body that might present danger to other people around him. There are other reasons for the German authorities to open an investigation into that. But I think the major point is that Putin, after this, we'll be forever rubber stamped as the guy who poisons his political opponents. I think that will damage his reputation internationally forever. So Putin might want to maintain a poker face like, you know, he's immune to any actions by the West, but he's not. And that is very important. Russia's still pretty much a weak, limited small economy by global scale. Putin's image of being immune to international actions, that's just wrong perception.

HM: You've said that Mr Navalny is a strong man. If he should make a full recovery, do you expect he will return to Russia and continue his political activities?

VM: Yes, I'm not sure about his condition. I just hope for his recovery. But I'm 100 per cent sure that he will be right here with the people of Russia, fighting for freedom and fighting for a better future for all of us.

HM: Mr. Milov, we will continue to look for news of Mr. Navalny’s condition. Thank you very much for speaking with us.

VM: Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

HM: Bye-bye.

VM: Goodbye.

CH: Vladimir Milov is an advisor to Alexei Navalny. We reached him in Moscow.

University of Alabama outbreak

Guest: Carlee Fernandez

CH: It's the nightmare scenario universities are hoping desperately to avoid, if they have students returning to school for the fall. More than 1000 students at the University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa have tested positive for COVID-19 since this semester started on August 19th. That's according to the school system's online dashboard. Carlee Fernandez is a senior studying criminal justice at the University of Alabama. A lot of her classes are online, but she has one in-person. And she also, until recently, worked at an on-campus residence. We reached Carlee Fernandez in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

HM: Carlee, as you have learned of these hundreds and hundreds of students testing positive for COVID-19. How has it made you feel when you've had to walk through the campus?

CARLEE FERNANDEZ: Honestly, I've been pretty scared walking through campus just because you never know who you're going to come in contact with, who's been exposed and who's positive. Just because, you know, it can happen at any time.

HM: One student at the school told a local paper that she's just staying in her room as much as possible. I'm wondering how different student life is this year for you and other students than it has been in previous years?

CF: Oh, my gosh. It's completely different because previous years, we would be able to tailgate for football. We would be able to actually sit down in the dining halls and eat. We would be able to go to club meetings and, you know, just hang out with our friends. And now it's really just school and home, or work if you work. So it's completely different.

HM: Now, do you believe the majority of students on campus and in the community are taking this virus seriously?

CF: Not really. Just because we've seen already the amount of students who are going to bars and who are partying, not wearing their masks, not social distancing. It's really frustrating seeing people not take it seriously just because they think that they'll be fine, and they're not really caring about the effect that they could have on other people.

HM: Can you share some examples of things you've seen personally?

CF: I mean, I've seen, driving down the strip in Tuscaloosa, going to Publix, I've seen, like, lines all the way out of the bars. People not wearing masks, not social distancing. I've seen people throwing parties, you know, hanging out with friends without masks on, you know, just doing things that are really irresponsible in a time like this.

HM: Yeah, I understand bars in Tuscaloosa have been shut down for a couple of weeks now. There's this moratorium on campus events, you mentioned. Access, I guess, to Greek houses, the fraternities and sororities, have been restricted. I mean, the university says it's doing all kinds of things like, you know, testing, contact tracing, made room for isolation housing. Do you think the school is doing enough? Are you confident the measures they're taking to bend the curve are going to do something?

CF: No, I honestly don't. And I think it's really frustrating just because we wouldn't even be in this predicament if it wasn't for them deciding that us coming back to campus was the right decision. And they definitely made that decision for themselves. I don't think that they had our best interests in mind.

HM: And why do you think they made that decision then? What was their interest?

CF: Financially, I think is the main reason they made that decision. Tuscaloosa really stays afloat because of the student body. So I think them making the decision to come back to school was strictly financial.

HM: Now, these parties that were happening at some of the Greek houses, have they actually been curbed, or are you seeing activity going on privately?

CF: I personally haven't seen any activity going on privately now. But I do know before, even with the restrictions that were, you know, before they canceled, you know, all the bars and stuff like that, that they were still having parties and stuff.

HM: Now, I understand that you asked to stop getting shifts as a front desk assistant at Burke Hall residence. How did you come to that decision?

CF: I came to that decision with my parents, and we kind of just sat down and figured that being paid minimum wage to sit at an isolation space wasn't safe, and it wasn't worth it.

HM: The isolation space, Burke Hall was being used to isolate students?

CF: Yes, Burke West is used as an isolation space.

HM: So these are students who've already tested positive?

CF: Yeah, I believe it’s students who have tested positive and who are suspected positive.

HM: Now, the chancellor has said that every student at the university does have the option of moving fully online, learning from home. I mean, have you considered that?

CF: I have. And I'm in the process of trying to make that happen. But it's kind of difficult because I have a course that is like a physical activity course that requires me to be in a gym setting. So, I mean, I know that they said that that's what can happen. But there are still a lot of complications going about that.

HM: Do you think the school should abandon on campus classes, should go fully online?

CF: I do.

HM: And I guess, as you say, there's going to be some price to pay for that. I mean, what's the impact, do you think, on the things that you're learning? How much are you losing by having to deal with the pandemic at school?

CF: I mean, personally, I'm losing a lot, you know? I lose the in-class, you know, experience. I lose the time with my professors. I lose time with my students. It's really just like a losing situation, unfortunately. But that really isn't much of a concern to me as much as safety for everybody else's.

HM: This is an institution of higher learning. Does it surprise you that people seem to be ignoring the science and just going about their business as usual?

CF: I want to say yes, but to be honest, it doesn't. Just because there's a lot of students on this campus who have a really selfish and entitled attitude towards really everything in life. So, you know, seeing that they don't really care about the pandemic, it's not surprising for me.

HM: Do you think it's being driven by any disinformation campaigns, any outside forces?

CF: Oh, absolutely. I mean, there's so much information going around, and it's hard to filter out what's right and what's wrong. And I think a lot of people pick and choose where they get their information from. And sometimes that information is just false.

HM: So ultimately, who do you hold responsible for what's happened with the explosion of cases on campus?

CF: Well, the University of Alabama is responsible because if they would not have brought us back to campus, we wouldn't be in this predicament in the first place. They are definitely responsible, although students do have a personal responsibility within themselves to wear masks and social distance. You know, the university decided to bring us back. They knew what would happen, bringing 17 to 20-somethings back to campus, and they did it anyways.

HM: Carlee, I wish you the very best. Please stay healthy and safe. And thank you for talking to us.

CF: Yes, ma'am. Thank you.

HM: OK. Bye.

CF: Bye.

CH: That was University of Alabama criminal justice student Carlee Fernandez in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

[Music: indie rock]

German woman fisherman

Guest: Chris Renz

CH: Taking part in a crowded, wet, and decidedly chaotic trout-fishing competition is not everyone's dream. But it's something Chris Renz has wanted to do since childhood. But she hasn't been allowed. Because she is a she. And in Memmingen, Germany, the annual Fischertag competition only welcomes male participants. But Chris Renz has been angling for change. And this week, she won a major victory. We reached her in Memmingen.

HM: Chris Renz, what does it mean to you to hear the judge rule in your favour this week, and say that women should be allowed to take part in this Fischertag?

CHRIS RENZ: It's great because many, many girls and women expect to take part in it for years. And we're not allowed to do it legally. I know some girls jumped in in disguise, but that's not what I wanted to do. I want to do it so everybody can see that also women can take part in an event like Fischertag.

HM: We'll talk more about that in just a moment. I guess we should explain exactly what the Fischertag is. What do you do, what happens during it?

CR: It starts the evening before with a big party in town. And in the morning, the men and boys meet early in the morning, about 6:00. And then all the fisher, the head of the fisher, announces man and boys go to a small river, a brook, and they sit and wait for the bellow, which is like if you fire a cannon, like a starter gun.

HM: Like a starter gun?

CR: Yeah, it’s like a start gun. And then they are allowed to jump in and get the trout out with a wooden net, so you can get the fish out of it. Yeah.

HM: So you wade right in there?

CR: You jump in the brook, and you stand in the water, which goes to the knee. And then you try to get out the fish. And not everybody gets a trout, but some get eight or nine. So it depends where you stand and how lucky you are.

HM: How does a person win? If they have multiple people get fish, who’s the winner?

CR: When there's a very big trout in the net. And you want to become Fischerkönig, Fisher King, then you have to go to two or three scales where you can --

HM: You can weigh the fish?

CR: You can weigh the fish. And if you have the heaviest trout, then you became the Fisher King.

HM: How long has this competition been going on?

CR: Well, it's once a year, and the Fischertagsverein exists now since 1900.

HM: That's the organization that runs it?

CR: Yeah, the society. But it changes a little bit over the centuries. The only remaining piece is that the man jump in, and that the one who's got the biggest trout will be Fisher King.

HM: So you, as I understand it, have been a member of the Fischertagsverein for 30 years, more than 30 years, but you haven't been able to participate?

CR: Yes. And [laughing] that's one thing that I always wanted to change, yeah? But the only opportunity I got when the federals fiscal court in Germany said that tradition is no longer a reason to discriminate females from taking part in something, yes?

HM: I wonder how much of a surprise it is to people to hear that in this day and age, that the organization has been able to exclude women right up till this court decision?

CR: [laughing] Well, I don't know how to answer this, because some of the men and women want to keep the tradition, yeah?

HM: Mmm-hmm.

CR: But I don't think it's a good thing to keep a tradition where you don't have equal rights for girls and women. These traditions have to be changed. And you have to work for it that there are equal rights for all men and women.

HM: You mentioned that some people, both men and women, want to keep the male-only tradition. But in terms of the larger reaction you've gotten in Memmingen, what are people saying about your court fight and this initial win?

CR: I think most of them think that it's not necessary to fight for something which is only for about 10 or 20 minutes a year, yeah? but the signal for girls is that you are allowed to do the same things as boys. So it's very important that since childhood, I mean, girls are little, six years old. They can see they are allowed to do the same things. They have the same rights.

HM: When is the next Fischertag?

CR: [laughing] It depends if coronavirus is still alive, then maybe never more. But I hope so, it will be in July 21. And if no other court changes the judgment, I will take part in jumping in.

HM: Congratulations on your win. It sounds like a great thing. And I hope you go jump in that brook.

CR: [laughing] Thank you.

HM: OK. Bye-bye.

CR: Bye.

CH: Chris Renz just won women and girls the right to participate in the annual Fischertag competition in Memmingen, Germany. That's where we reached her.

[Music: Indie rock]

Singing parrot

CH: I'm telling you: this kid's got it all. He's gorgeous. He's young. He's hungry for success, and seeds, and nuts. And his voice is dynamite. Despite the fact that he has absolutely no idea what he's singing. Which leads me to my last point: he can't read contracts, so you could really take advantage of him. Only drawbacks are: he's got an entourage of less-talented friends he won't go anywhere without. And his catchphrase is going to need some work: he tells everyone "you're a good boy". Still, Chico's already a star. Just check this out.

CH: That's Chico the yellow-crowned Amazon parrot. He's nine years old. And right now, he's the hottest act at the Lincolnshire Wildlife Park. People line up to see and hear him. And he's blowing up on social media — like Justin Bieber and Alessia Cara before him. But what's great about Ol' Orange Eyes — as future generations will know him — is that he's humble. He acts like doesn't know what Instagram is, or who Justin Bieber is, or what a celebrity is, or — look, he doesn't seem to grasp much about the human world, period. But he knows who to emulate. Here he is mimicking Beyoncé.

[Sound: The bird sings “If I Were A Boy”]

CH: Let’s him do that again.

[Sound: The bird sings “If I Were A Boy”]

CH: You see? I"m telling you, Chico the parrot is going to be huge. And one last thing about him: he's been patient. Just hanging out in a wildlife park, knowing he'd be discovered. Now, he's in the spotlight — after years of waiting with the wings.

Part two: Austria citizenship, cruise ship tours

Austria citizenship

Guest: Ruvi Ziegler

CH: Their parents and grandparents fled Austria because of persecution by the Nazis. And now, the Jewish descendants of those refugees will be able to claim Austrian citizenship. For years, groups representing victims of the Nazis have pushed for citizenship to be restored — allowing the families of Jewish refugees to hold dual nationalities. And the Austrian government has finally agreed. Ruvi Ziegler is the son of a Holocaust survivor. He teaches international refugee law at the University of Reading, and he's been speaking to British relatives of Jews who fled Europe about Austria's gesture. We reached Mr. Ziegler in Oxford, England.

HM: Professor Ziegler, what kind of responses are you hearing from people who will now be eligible for Austrian citizenship?

RUVI ZIEGLER: Right. It's quite extraordinary to see the sort of reactions, because ultimately, there are lots of people who haven't really contemplated acquiring or reacquiring an Austrian citizenship. Because until Brexit, so until the UK voted to leave, and indeed until this January when the UK has actually left the EU, they felt European. They were European in terms of their European citizenship by being British. And Austria would have required them to forego their British citizenship, to forgo that's part of their identity. And so for many of them, it was just not on the table at all. And now that this window has opened, so for the last few months since it became clear that the first of September will be the day when this becomes available, you see hundreds of people trying to come to gather documents. And there is now a community of people who are British Jews who are really excited about the prospects of retaining a European citizenship. But also for many, I think it's a sense of fitting that they are reclaiming something that was always theirs and was taken away unjustly.

HM: Now, Germany has offered citizenship to the descendants of Jewish refugees for years. Why has Austria taken so much longer to do this?

RZ: Yeah, Austria has taken much longer to come to just recognize its responsibility for the Holocaust. The fact that he was a perpetrator, or part of the perpetrators and not a victim. And it really only was in the 1990s — pretty much alongside joining the European Union — that Austria has started coming to terms with its responsibilities. And this legislation has been fraught with difficulties. That it's just been passed, but there have been calls for that sort of legislation precisely because Germany has a similar form of legislation for decades. But he was politically opposed primarily by the far-right, but not just. And now it's actually a right-wing chancellor of Austria that has brought it forward.

HM: Why is that? Why would a right-wing chancellor bring this forward at this point?

RZ: So there are all sorts of speculations. One is he is quite friendly towards Israel and the current government. And so it's seen as something that Israel and Israelis would be in favour of. It's also, I think, a realization that there's a sense of leadership that he's shown, and perhaps even to be a place that would attract the Jews to return to. That it's a cross-party issue that even people on the right are very supportive of. And, yeah, I think also just a realization that Austria perhaps is confident enough, strong enough to recognize its past responsibilities, that enough time has passed. And lastly, distancing himself and his party from, as you were, the far-right, saying we're not anti-Semitic. Quite the opposite.

HM: Now, through your own ancestry, you could apply for Austrian citizenship under this new law. Will you be doing so?

RZ: So I won't be doing so. But that is because I've already taken, as you were, the German route. So part of my family, so my late grandparents have fled Germany after Kristallnacht. So, in the beginning of 1939, they moved to British mandate Palestine and were subsequently denationalized, or lost German nationality. I was able to reclaim German nationality. And I've done so about 15 years ago, and didn't have to forego other nationalities that I have as a result. Had I not done that, I probably would have taken now the Austrian route. Because I mean, as much as I enjoy my British citizenship. I do also value my European identity and my EU citizenship rights. And that is a very central motivation for people who do that.

HM: Your father, as I understand it, is a Holocaust survivor.

RZ: Yes.

HM: How did he feel when you decided to reclaim this German citizenship?

RZ: Yeah, so it wasn’t an easy move. It happened about 15 years ago, but obviously quite some time after the Holocaust. But it was something that I discussed with him. He, at the time, would still have not travelled to Germany, but now he does. He understood the motivations for why I decided to do it. And yeah, I think my sort of dilemmas around it and his reactions or, you know, reservations are not unusual. And you hear them, and we have heard them through our research, across the British Jewish community as well.

HM: Now, you've made clear that Brexit has made this much more appealing because then people can keep their EU citizenship if they live in the UK. Do you expect many of these people would even take up residence in Austria?

RZ: Yeah, I think that's the fascinating question, right? So I think for many people, the notion of taking up that other citizenship without having to forgo British citizenship means they don't have to make that decision quite right now. And there may be some people who will, but there are many people for whom this is seen as a door-opening move. In other words, if you are 50 and your parents are the ones who left Austria, and you are now requiring that citizenship so that your children can go and do an Erasmus program, you know, a study abroad program in the European Union, or go and work there, or you would be able to retire elsewhere in the EU, you might not think about doing this right now, but you want to create the opportunity for yourself and for your children to be able to do this in the future.

HM: Professor Ziegler, thank you very much for helping us understand this law and the reaction to it.

RZ: Thank you.

HM: Okay, bye-bye.

RZ: Bye-bye.

CH: Ruvi Ziegler is the son of a Holocaust survivor and a researcher with the Jewish Historical Society of England's EU Passport Project. He was in Oxford, England.

[Music: World music]

Avalanche death

CH: About eight months ago, Adam Campbell was skiing with his wife Laura Kosakoski in Banff National Park, when there was an avalanche. Ms. Kosakoski was buried. After almost an hour, Mr. Campbell and a friend were able to dig her out. But she died the next day in hospital. She was 34 years old. This past weekend, Mr. Campbell and some friends returned to the spot where the avalanche happened. They found her skis, poles, gloves and goggles. Adam Campbell spoke with the CBC's Rob Brown about what that moment was like.

ADAM CAMPBELL: We actually saw her ski quite quickly. It was a bright orange ski, and so it really stood out. And the first ski we found was actually in the creek bed. And I instantly fell to my knees, just sort of the trauma of the last few months really, really hit home. [voice breaking] But then we, you know, we're all able to sit and sort of pay our respects to the environment, and to Laura, and just to be with each other again, you know? It's been a really strange year in a lot of ways. Sorry, I’m kind of tearing up here.

ROB BROWN: Take your time.

AC: Yeah, thanks. Yeah, you know, just with COVID and everything as well. So Laura was a family doctor, and obviously the last few months have been, you know, she would have been my source of information for a lot of that. And she would have really helped our community a lot through this last period. And so just to be able to sit and reflect on that with people, I think after the year that a lot of people have gone through, it was all so powerful.

RB: Yeah, I have to say, it's difficult to listen to you. And it's understandable that you're still upset. But you wanted to talk about this, were on the radio discussing it for a reason, and you're hoping that other people learn from your experience. I mean, I know that you had extensive experience in avalanche safety training. And yet, the worst happened that day. So what are you hoping others can take from your experience of Laura’s loss?

AC: Yeah, you're right there. So, you know, both Laura and I had the highest level of nonprofessional avalanche training you can get, lots of time in the mountains. We were out on a recreational day with a friend who's a ski guide, who also has very deep knowledge of the day. And we were out for a casual day skiing. And, you know, the worst case happened. We've seen a lot of increased activity in the back country over the summer and over the last few winters as well. And it's great. I think the mountains give us so, so much. But, you know, it's just a reminder that they are a really, really dangerous environment, really dynamic. And you can never you can never know enough.

CH: That was Adam Campbell on "The Eyeopener" in Calgary this morning, speaking about his wife Laura Kosakoski. She died earlier this year, after an avalanche.

[Music: Sombre ambient]

Cruise ship tours

Guest: Paul Derham

CH: For the better part of 30 years, Paul Derham lived the dream. Sailing the seas on cruise ships with an on-board population that dwarfed many of the sea-side villages of Dorset, UK, where Mr. Derham grew up. But in pandemic times, those floating behemoths have come to represent something a lot less dreamy. When COVID-19 struck, nightmarish stories began to emerge of the conditions on cruise ships as infection spread and quarantines dragged on. Now, all but a handful of cruises have ground to a halt. Some of those hulking, empty ships are anchored in the English Channel near Dorset, where Paul Derham is now owner and operator of a local ferry. And, most recently, of a new business too: 'Ghost' Cruise Ship tours. We reached him at home in Mudeford, earlier today.

HM: Mr. Derham, you spend your days on the water, what is it like for you to be surrounded by these enormous empty ships?

PAUL DERHAM: Well, it's a bit surreal, really. But it's a good view because you haven't got anything in the way, even if you're in a port somewhere. There's always buildings in the way. So you get a fantastic view of these big ships. We've got three here at the moment. We've had up to five. And when we go out on our trips, we generally go around as many as we can.

HM: What are they doing there?

PD: They're just at anchor. It's basically a free anchorage. And then every so often, they go into Southampton to change crew, to restock for food and to refuel. There has to be people on them. They can't just sort of moor them with nobody on. What is a bit surreal is that we're allowed to go up to 50 metres away from this vessel, and it’s about 50 meters high. So we're looking up at an angle about 45 degrees. There's one ship, Allure of the Sea, she's even bigger. She's 70 meters tall. So you really get a perspective on how big she is. And she is 1200 feet long as well, which is about one-fifth of a mile.

HM: It sounds like it must be quite breathtaking seeing that from a ferry?

PD: Oh, it’s fantastic. All the passengers like it. Some of the passengers have actually been on the ships. We were going around the Allure of the Seas the other day, and two of our passengers had been on it quite recently. And they suddenly said, oh, we can still get the Wi-Fi.

HM: [chuckling] Oh, my goodness! Now, when did it strike you that there was an opportunity in the eerie sight of all of these empty or almost empty ships?

PD: We were coming out of lockdown, and we're at step two. We had step one, two and three. And we thought we couldn't really start at step one. So step two, we decided we'd start. But we weren't carrying very many passengers, and I couldn't really believe it. Anyway, I went down, I could see my old ship in the distance, and we had a few passengers on going to the beach. And I said, anybody want to go and see the cruise ships? And I was amazed, so many hands went up. I thought, oh, okay. So we put it on Facebook, and we filled up within a few hours, two trips.

HM: What do you charge for a trip out to see the ships?

PD: Twenty pounds.

HM: And what do you get for that? If I were to get on your boat, besides getting close within 50 meters?

PD: Yep, you get two-and-half hours on board. Full commentary. We even start off with a house that George the third stayed in. I talk a little banter about Stone Age man walking across from France because there was no English Channel there in those days. And then we get up to the ships. And I gave a full briefing of length, breadth, heights, weights, and how many passengers are on board? That big one, Allure of the Sea, she has six-thousand passengers and 2200 crew.

HM: You alluded to the fact that you have spent time on the cruise ships professionally. Do you share information with them about what that's like?

PD: Oh, definitely, yes. Some they ask all kinds of questions about life on board and what was happening on the ship at the time. And I know having been with PNO for 27 years, from cadet to deputy captain, I've got good knowledge of the whole running of the whole ship and can answer any questions they have.

HM: What about stories of sort of incidents, things that might not become public normally?

PD: Well, there was one on... I was the deputy captain for the First Royal Cruise in March 2001. And we were in the. Taiwan Strait, and we had a distress call from a timber carrier that was ahead of us, a few hours ahead of us. And so we went to the scene and it was pretty carnage. When I say a timber carrier, it was really trees it was carrying. And there was upturned lifeboats, lifeboys and just trees just scattered all over the place. And it and then we finally, we got the passes to keep a lookout as well, and we finally located three survivors. Swells at the time were about five metres, quite big. We got a rescue boat away. We managed to bring three people back on board.

HM: Wow!

PD: Only two survived. There was about sixteen people on board this timber carrier, and another vessel got three or four. And the rest were never found. And that story, I relate as if I wasn't on board. And then I say finally, oh, yeah, I was actually on board that ship at the time.

HM: It sounds like you're as much a storyteller as you are a captain?

PD: [laughing] I think you have to be. Yes, you have to… I've done tours myself, and I find the more information I'm given, the more interesting the tour is. And that's what I try to portray on our trips out to see the liners.

HM: You know better than most of us that there's a very serious aspect to all of this that's pretty sobering with the cruise industry pretty much ground to a halt, and so many livelihoods affected. As someone who has spent a career in the industry, what are your thoughts?

PD: Yeah, it's very sad the cruise industry has collapsed how it has. The shipping companies keep on putting that they hope to recommence back and back and back. And some companies aren't even anticipating starting till next year. It will come back in some shape or form. The only thing I can think of is they might have to start doing cruises to nowhere, or cruises up a Norwegian fjords. I think the trouble is countries will not like a couple of thousand people wandering round their streets at the present time. That the difficulty for the industry at the moment.

HM: Thanks for talking to us.

PD: No problem at all. Thank you very much.

HM: Bye-bye.

CH: Paul Derham is the owner and operator of the Mudeford Ferry — and has a new side hustle as a 'ghost' cruise ship tour guide. He spoke to us from his home in Mudeford.

‘Poo with a View’

CH: Visitors to the backcountry of Canada's Rocky Mountains know that it's important to take only photos, and leave only footprints. Which means being responsible with the stuff you came with — and the stuff that comes out of you. That's why outhouses in some of the most remote spots in the country are so important. Although we don't often give them much thought. Unlike Gavin Boutet — who's spent a good part of the last seven years thinking about them. He's an adventure photographer and author who's spent that time getting shots of outhouses in some of the most spectacular places in the Rockies. Hence the title of his new book — "Poo with a View". Gavin Boutet talked about getting those shots on the CBC Calgary's "The Homestretch".

GAVIN BOUTET: I was very privileged to work with the Alpine Club of Canada as a service representative and worker, and so we would service these outhouses by flying the poo out. So I just thought, why not start a collection of the outhouses in particular?

DOUG DIRKS: Thirteen different locations. And so can you describe some of those outhouses that you thought are particularly memorable?

GB: One of the most memorable ones, I suppose, is actually on the cover, the old Neil Colgan Hut, which was at the time the highest permanent outhouse in Canada. Originally, it was a great access to climb Mount Sir Sandford, one of the tall peaks in the Selkirks. So that hut and the outhouse itself were actually made from rocks that were stacked in that location as like a root marker. So that was converted to build the hut and the outhouse there.

DD: When you took the pictures of the outhouses in these remote locations, what was the setup like for that?

GB: So I didn't want to certainly take photos as anybody using them or anything.

DD: [laughing] right.

GB: But no, as people explore more, you know, we can't be leaving our mess, and certainly not our garbage and fecal matter everywhere. And I feel like they’re true unsung heroes of the back country because, you know, everybody poops.

DD: Sure.

GB: And it’s something that has to be managed.

DD: How often would you go in to service an outhouse in a remote area like that? How much action, so to speak, do they see in those locations?

GB: [laughing] Some more than others, some twice a year. Generally, the way that things worked is we didn't want to fly frozen poop out because then you can't really deal with it.

DD: Sure.

GB: So we were doing things in the short summer months.

DD: What kind of response are you getting to the subject of this book?

GB: Well, this is just sort of hot and steamy off the presses. [DD laughs heartily]

DD: Gavin, you've been waiting all interview to use those lines, haven't you?

GB: [both laughing] Yeah, well, it's only starting to pick up some steam now here. So, yeah.

CH: Gavin Boutet's book, "Poo with a View", features photos of some of the highest outhouses in Canada. He spoke with Doug Dirks on CBC Calgary's "The Homestretch".

[Music: Carnival music]

Tortoise adventure

CH: When Solomon took off from his Tennessee home more than two months ago, he did it in his usual unhurried way. He may have been "running away," but that didn't mean he had to run away. The world moves too quickly as it is! Why run when you can walk? And why walk when you can crawl?! Wasn't it Shakespeare who wrote: "Wisely and slow; they stumble that run fast"? Solomon has never stumbled. Wasn't it Moliere who said: "Unreasonable haste is the direct road to error"? Solomon has never taken the direct road. Solomon is committed to slowness. He has to be. He's a tortoise. After escaping from his enclosure at the home where he has lived since birth, he plodded a course to victory. For 74 days he methodically explored his freedom. Meanwhile, his human family searched and searched — baffled that it would be so hard to find an enormous 15-year-old tortoise that weighs more than a human of the same age. Until, finally, Solomon was spotted by passersby. Two-and-a-half months after he started his daring gambit, he was an unbelievable 200 metres from home.

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September 02, 2020 Episode Transcript

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