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The AIH Transcript for August 6, 2020

Hosts: Susan Bonner and Chris Howden

Prologue

SUSAN BONNER: Hello, I'm Susan Bonner, sitting in for Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

SB: Explosive allegations. Tuesday's devastating blast in Beirut is now shaking up Lebanon's political system. But a local human rights activist tells us an investigation led by this government is no investigation at all.

CH: Down for the count. The U.S. Census Bureau announces it's wrapping up its data collection one month early. Our guest says the decision means millions will be left out. And that just doesn't add up unless leaving people out is the point.

SB: Straight scared. A school nurse in Georgia quit her job over fears about COVID-19. Now she says photos of packed school hallways have her fearing for students.

CH: Anti-hero. When COVID-19 closed labs, scientists had to adapt. We reached an entomologist who had their bug out bag all packed with thousands of live ants. And they've been living with them ever since.

SB: Life handed him a lemon, and he refused to let go of it. A Minnesota man bought a rusted Chevy pickup for 75 bucks 44 years ago and sold it last month for 75 bucks.

CH: And he made a break for it. A tourist at an Italian museum steps on a few toes after he sits on the toes of a 200 year old sculpture and snaps them right off. As It Happens. The Thursday Edition. Radio that thinks he sounds like a real art-breaker.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Lebanese people have 'complete lack of trust' in Beirut blast investigation, says Human Rights Watch

Beirut investigation

Guest: Aya Majzoub

CH: The fallout from this week's explosion in Beirut is by now all too clear. Staggering numbers of dead and wounded. Hospitals destroyed or overwhelmed. And an existing economic crisis made crushingly worse. What remains unclear is how on earth 2,700 tons of ammonium nitrate were left sitting in the capital's bustling port for years. A Lebanese judge says 16 port staffers have now been arrested in connection with the blasts. But when French President Emmanuel Macron arrived in Beirut today, demonstrators made it clear they believe culpability goes much higher than that.

VOICE: You are sitting with warlords. They have been manipulating us for the past years. Our prime minister, the previous ones, and the current ones. The speaker of the parliament. [Cross talking]

EMMANUEL MACRON: I'm not here to help them. I am here to help you.

CH: Aya Majzoub shares the protesters concerns. She's a Human Rights Watch researcher calling for an independent investigation into this week's blast. We reached her in Beirut.

SB: Ms. Majzoub, how would you describe the mood in the streets of Beirut today?

AYA MAJZOUB: People are angry. I have never seen people so enraged like they are today. People are both baffled by how more than 2,700 tons of explosive material was left in the port for several years. But also just outraged at the sheer incompetence and negligence of the Lebanese ruling elite.

SB: What kind of reaction have you seen to evidence that high level officials in Lebanon knew for years about the presence of this dangerous material and did nothing?

AM: Really, it's very hard to comprehend how so many people knew about the existence of these explosive materials and did nothing. There have already been judges implicated, port officials implicated, and local media has been reporting that the successive prime ministers since 2013 have been informed, as has the president.

SB: Port officials have been arrested. What reaction is there to that?

AM: People are saying that it's not nearly enough. The problem didn't start with the port officials. Yes, they should be held responsible. But the investigation should be much broader. And really part of the problem is the complete lack of trust between the Lebanese public and the Lebanese state that has for many years been robbing the country blind. And this was just the latest in a string of failures.

SB: Were the port officials not the ones who were sending warnings to the politicians through the judiciary?

AM: They were. There are several letters that port officials sent to the judiciary asking them to act. But, I mean, the excuse cannot be, well we sent letters and then the judges never answered us. They should have escalated it to the highest levels of government.

SB: Are you worried that various officials, port officials, the judges themselves, will be blamed for this and elected politicians will escape accountability?

AM: Absolutely. I mean, we are used to in Lebanon the political elites scapegoating lower ranking people in order to get away with abuse, crimes, or negligence. Which is why we have been calling for an independent investigation with international experts. Anything short of this will fail to get the trust and credibility of the investigation needs.

SB: And how do you expect that call to be received?

AM: I mean, there have already been many even within the Lebanese authorities who have been calling for an investigation with international experts. The minister of justice just this morning called for exactly that. And today, during President Macron's visit to Beirut, he also stressed the need for a transparent and international investigation into exactly what happened.

SB: This is a new government in Lebanon. Does that give you some hope that there will be a determined effort to get to the bottom of this?

AM: Unfortunately not. You know, even if the faces are new, the people who they have their loyalties tied to are the same politicians and the same party leaders and the same warlords that have ruled the country for decades. Over the last several months, we've seen this government that claims to be independent and technocratic, bowed to the will of the politicians and the parliamentarians that elected it. So in our view, this government is a continuation of previous Lebanese governments and it's not independent nor technocratic.

SB: What possible reasons could there be for government officials to ignore this ticking time bomb of dangerous goods given they knew how enormous the risks were?

AM: I mean, it really is mind boggling. But the only rational explanations that I can think of is that somebody was benefiting from it being in the port or making a lot of money off of it. But obviously, this is all just speculation. It's unclear. And this is exactly why we need a credible, transparent, and independent investigation to establish exactly what this material was doing in the ports in the first place and how it got there.

SB: All kinds of aid money is pouring into the country. Money coming from all around the world, including Canada. How do you think this aid needs to be administered?

AM: So we have called as Human Rights Watch for the aid to be directly given to the people in need or to organizations working on the ground are not channeled through the governments. And there seems to be an international recognition of the need for a process like this, given the Lebanese government's history of squandering billions of dollars in aid that never trickled down to the public. So during President Macron's visit today, he reassured the Lebanese public that the aid will be distributed directly to people in need and to organizations working on the ground and it would not be funneled through the Lebanese government.

SB: You lived through the blast, you were there for the immediate aftermath. What kind of an impact does it have on you personally?

AM: It's been a really difficult few days. I mean, I have never ever in my life experienced what I experienced a couple of days ago. The shock of the blast, the widespread destruction, the confusion on everyone's faces, the injuries, the blood -- I mean, it's devastating. You know, for the moment, everybody's trying to busy themselves with disaster relief and trying to assess the damage and help those less fortunate. But, you know, I think reality will start to set in pretty soon, and that's terrifying.

SB: Ms. Majzoub thank you for talking to us. We wish you all the best.

AM: Thank you very much. I really appreciate it.

CH: Aya Majzoub is a Lebanon researcher with Human Rights Watch. We reached her in Beirut. Across the city today, families continue to salvage what they could of shattered homes and businesses. In one poignant clip shared on social media today, Beirut resident Hoda Melki filmed her mother playing piano while other family members clean up broken glass in the background. It's our Sound of the Day. [SOUND: Piano being played -- shattered glass heard in the background]

[Music]

Georgia crowded schools

Guest: Amy Westermoreland

CH: School nurse Amy Westmoreland tries to be there for her students. But with COVID-19 rocking her Georgia district, she says it quickly became clear that the best way to show up for the kids she cared about was by staying away. Ms. Westmoreland resigned last week. Just days later, photos surfaced from within Paulding County schools showing packed hallways and scant use of masks. Now, multiple staff and students in the district have tested positive for COVID-19. And Amy Westmoreland says she's afraid for the students she used to serve. We reached her in Douglas County, Georgia.

SB: Ms. Westmoreland, tell me about the moment you made the decision to resign.

AMY WESTMORELAND: You know, it started initially earlier in the year when I went back into the building and saw people without masks on, this was in April and May. And after hearing what the board's decision was when they decided that masks would be a personal choice, you know, that was just really all-telling for me.

SB: What kinds of conversations did you attempt to have with your school district before making the decision to resign?

AW: Well, I sent an email to the superintendent and my nursing supervisor before I sent my resignation email, just kind of asking, you know, we've heard from you about staff, about students, but we haven't heard anything in terms of the nursing department -- and, you know, what are your plans? What type of PPE will be provided to us? And I never heard anything back other than we were supposed to have a meeting that Monday, and then my nursing supervisor cancelled that until the following Monday, but I had already resigned by then.

SB: So what do you think when you see the photos that are circulating now of packed hallways and Paulding County schools?

AW: I'm sad. I'm disappointed. I am afraid for the kids, regardless of what their own personal beliefs are or their family's beliefs are in terms of mask wearing and social distancing. But I mean, of course, it is some validation in terms of my reasoning for resigning. But it's mostly that heartache of knowing that they're exposing themselves to possibly becoming sick with the virus. So I just anticipate that becoming worse before it gets better.

SB: What do you say to people who argue that maybe by staying you might have been able to help mitigate the situation, you might have gotten through to some children and perhaps changed the culture at the schools?

AW: I would say to them that I don't know that it would be received well by parents or administration in terms of, you know, I'm putting my stands, my beliefs on mask wearing onto the children, if that's what their families decision was to not wear masks. But more so the possibility of infecting somebody unknowingly being asymptomatic. You know, I care for or cared for many students with special needs that have g-tubes that need medications and feedings. I've had several students with autoimmune diseases, diabetics, kids with seizures. I have to, you know, get on the floor and help them. And I'd be face to face with them. So even if I had a shield and a mask on, you know, I can't as a nurse keep a six foot distance from my patients that I'm not in the hospital where I'm in that environment to be able to care for them properly.

SB: What kind of reaction have you experienced since you resigned?

AW: Well, I try to focus on the positive. I've heard from some former coworkers and people in the community, some other school nurses in other counties who are frustrated. But, you know, like our local news media published my interview on their Facebook page, and people are saying some pretty hurtful things. You know, my weight really does not have any bearing on this situation at all.

SB: People said something about your weight?

AW: Yes. Yes. There are people that are telling me that I shouldn't be a nurse in the first place because it's obvious that I'm morbidly obese. And they've made comments about pictures they saw on my Facebook about other family members. You know, they've ridiculed me about, you know, I'm not really a nurse because I quit. You know, a number of those things.

SB: What do you make of allegations that students in the county face suspension -- I think at least one has been suspended for talking about their concerns regarding this policy on social media?

AW: I have to tell you, I am so proud of the students that have spoken out, that took it upon themselves to take those videos, those photos. They knew that it wasn't right. And it's so important to stand up for what is right. And, you know, I really am disappointed in the county for discouraging them. They should focus more on the health of the students, the health of the families of these students instead of talking about disciplinary actions.

SB: Ms. Westmoreland, thank you for telling us your story. Good to talk to you.

AW: You're welcome. I really really appreciate you giving me time and your platform to hopefully help these children.

SB: Goodbye.

AW: Goodbye.

CH: Until recently, Amy Westmoreland was a school nurse at W.C. Abney Elementary School in Paulding County, Georgia. She resigned over her concerns about the district's handling of COVID-19. We reached out to the Paulding County School District for a response to this story, but did not hear back before airtime.

[Music]

Ant researcher

Guest: Aaron Fairweather

CH: Anyone who's left a half-finished lollipop outside, on top of a half-finished cupcake, knows how intrusive ants can be at this time of year. It was my fault, I should have finished the lollipop before I started the cupcake. But to Aaron Fairweather, ants aren't intruders at all. Aaron usually keeps a few hundred ants in the house on purpose. The University of Guelph PhD candidate is a self-described "bug nerd" who studies ants in agriculture. But since the COVID-19 pandemic began, the number of ants at their Guelph, Ontario home has significantly multiplied. Because of campus regulations, the entomologist had to take the ants from the lab home as well. We reached Aaron Fairweather in Kirkland Lake, Ontario.

SB: Aaron, you usually have a few hundred ants at home in your personal colonies, but how much has that number grown since the start of this pandemic?

AARON FAIRWEATHER: That number has gone up about tenfold. I have well over 10,000 ants in my house right now. [Chuckles]

SB: Okay. Can you paint me a picture of the scene?

AF: On the one side of the dining room, we have the table pushed against the wall and it's covered in a table cloth. And I have some lights set up and some heating equipment to make sure all of the temperature and humidity conditions are kept as stable as possible. And then covering the entire table is about 27 different containers of ants which have about a thousand to two thousand ants per container.

SB: Where did all these ants come from?

AF: So these are all from my collections last summer as part of my research. I'm looking at how ants impact agricultural systems and how we impact them through our practices such as pesticide use. And so I collected them last summer as a means to do some laboratory experiments. Of course, those are all delayed now because COVID.

SB: How difficult is it to control the environment that the ants living and working in because when they're in a lab, you obviously have the right equipment to do that -- how challenging is it at home?

AF: It's quite challenging. So my house wasn't insulated until recently and we don't have very good humidity and temperature control in general. We still don't have air conditioning. So I've had to make a little set up in my living room where we have air conditioner pointed towards the table. I have a couple of fans going. I have boxes set up to keep the ants on a regular light and dark schedule. And I have a dehumidifier near there as well. So it is quite difficult and it's been a big change to get the conditions as stable as I can, but it still doesn't compare to a lab setting.

SB: So the ants have air conditioning, but you don't?

AF: Yeah. [Chuckles]

SB: What sort of research have you been able to do on these ants with them in your home?

AF: So I've been doing some basic controlled trials for the experiments that I want to do. I haven't been able to use pesticides like I would in a lab setting. I haven't been able to use proper controlled settings. All the data I'm collecting is just preliminary. It won't be putting into my final thesis. So most of this stuff is just getting ready for when I can get back into the lab.

SB: I understand that you've been able to get approval to go out to a research centre today. How will that help your work?

AF: So the work that I'm doing will be helping another scientist who works at Harvard. This one is a continuation of the work that I did last summer with the scientist Buck Trible. We were looking at a rare species of slave making art that he was interested in doing genetic work with. But of course, he's from Harvard, and because of the COVID limitations and the closure of the US border, he couldn't come up this summer to do the work that he needs to do to continue his research program. So he asked me in desperation if I would be able to go up and do this weeklong collection trip instead of him and then ship all the ants to him with proper permits. It took about four months for us to set this up, but that's what I'm doing right now as a piece of grace to him and be able to continue his work.

SB: How far back has this pandemic set your research and the research of other scientists like the one at Harvard?

AF: Mine is probably set back at least a year. I had been planning this summer's work for at least eight months, about the beginning of last fall. And because I can't have all of the research assistants that I wanted to have, I can't have my colonies and lab, I can't be working on all those experiments that I just outlined, it means all of that stuff has to happen next year. And then I have to go through the work of finding new students to try and help me. I have to go. The work of setting up all those pesticides that I was going to order and I can't anymore. All of that kind of stuff. So at least a year for me. But I know for some scientists, it set them back multiple years.

SB: How stressful have the last few months been for you?

AF: Incredibly. I mean, outside of even the COVID -- I mean the COVID impacts on the university, there's been a lot of personal impacts. I've had a couple of family members die during the COVID crisis.

SB: I'm sorry.

AF: One of them as a direct result. I mean, we're all doing our best, right? It's impacted certainly a lot of our lives throughout our work, but also our personal lives. So everybody's in a tough state and certainly incredibly stressful. But we're doing our best.

SB: How long do you think you can live with all of these ants in your home?

AF: [Chuckles] I mean, I can probably live quite a while with these ants in my home.

SB: How long can your husband live with all these ants in your home?

AF: [Chuckles] That's a better question. I don't know. I'm sure he's ready to get through the next four months. But if it takes far beyond that, he's going to be at wits' end with all my ants.

SB: Aaron, thank you for telling us about it. Good luck with your research.

AF: No problem. Thank you very much for having me.

CH: That was Aaron Fairweather, a PhD candidate and lecturer in the School of Environmental Sciences at the University of Guelph. We reached him in Kirkland Lake, Ontario.

[Music]

Pickup Truck

CH: The year is 1957, The Del-Vikings' "Come Go With Me" is blasting out of transistor radios. Dwight Eisenhower is in the White House. Old Yeller is traumatizing movie audiences. And a Chevrolet pickup rolls off the assembly line. [SOUND: "You Sexy Thing" by Hot Chocolate] The since the year is 1976, a guy named Bob Sportal in his early 20s has just got a job at the Farmers Co-op in Prinsburg, Minnesota. He needs a vehicle. And he happens to meet a farmer who's keen to sell his pickup -- a rusty worse for extreme wear 1957 Chevrolet pickup. It's the one from before. After some haggling, Mr. Sportal agrees to pay the farmer his asking price: 75 dollars. [SOUND: "Don't Start Now" by Dua Lipa] The year is 2020, unfortunately. Bob Sportal retired from the co-op in 2015 after working there for 38 years. And all year, every year for all those years, he drove that rusty, noisy 1957 Chevy pickup to and from the job. There are gaping holes in the body. Passenger door does not close right. Seats are practically made of duct tape at this point. But he still put 300,000 miles on it. That's what he figures anyway, because the odometer has been busted since he bought it for 75 bucks. Finally, Bob Sportal has decided it's time to let it go. Last month, he sold it to the grandson of the very farmer who first sold it to him for the exact price he paid for it back in 1976: 75 dollars. So its value didn't appreciate much. But the truck itself was much appreciated. And the old pickup probably can't go full circle anymore, but its story sure does. Here's Neil Young with a song inspired by his own first car, a 1948 Buick Roadmaster hearse. This is "Long May You Run.".

[Music: "Long May You Run" by Neil Young]

CH: From the compilation Decade, Neil Young with Long May You Run.

[Music]

Part 2: U.S. census concerns

U.S. census concerns

Guest: Amit Singh Bagga

CH: Everybody counts. But when it comes to the census, if you're not counted, you might be discounted. That's a particular concern right now in the United States, where efforts to complete the 2020 census have been hindered by the pandemic. The census is completed every 10 years and has a big impact on how the country's money and political power are distributed. Now the project faces a serious challenge after census officials announced they'd be ending data collection a month early. That's raise concerns that the shortened timeline could lead to a skewed tally with tens of millions of households left uncounted. Amit Singh Bagga is the deputy director of the New York City Mayor's office of the Census. We reached him in New York.

SB: Mr. Bagga, in a word or two, how would you describe this decision by the Census Bureau to wrap up its survey one month early?

AMIT SINGH BAGGA: We would describe this decision as simply unconscionable.

SB: Let's take a step back. Can you give us a general idea of why it is so important that everyone be counted for the census?

AMIT SINGH BAGGA: Absolutely. So the census is a count of absolutely every single person in the United States. It's found in the very first section of our Constitution. And it's taken place every 10 years since 1790, the founding of our nation. And the census is the very basis of the fair and accurate distribution of money, power, and respect across all 50 states. The distribution of 1.5-trillion dollars for schools, for hospitals, for roads and bridges, health clinics, mass transit, any program you or your family relies on, the distribution of those dollars is based on the census. In addition to that, the number of seats that we have in the House of Representatives, the distribution of those seats is based on the census figures. And so what happens is that if a particular state or city is not fully counted in the census, that state or city is losing out on its fair share of billions of dollars over a course of 10 years for programs and services its residents rely on, as well as its fair share of representation in the Congress.

SB: So by stopping the collection of data on September 30th instead of October 31st, who do you worry about being left out of this count?

AMIT SINGH BAGGA: So as of today, approximately 63 percent of households in the United States have replied to the census, and here in New York City, it's just under 55 percent. By and large, when you look at cities across the country, it's Black, Brown and immigrant communities that have not yet responded to the census. And there are many good reasons for why these communities have felt fear or a lack of trust in the federal government and therefore haven't responded. And so by truncating the census by an entire month, what we are essentially doing is saying that those households simply don't matter because there's no way we're going to be able to reach all 40 percent of those households in the amount of time President Trump and the administration have now allotted. Which means that by definition, communities that are already underserved, that are already not getting their fair share of resources are going to be left out of the count.

SB: So give me an example of a community or a group that might be feeling this fear about responding to the census.

AMIT SINGH BAGGA: Sure. So immigrant communities across the country, even though there are no possible repercussions that could come to you as an immigrant as a result of responding to the census, they've been afraid of the census because the president has made the census a target by tying it to immigrants. Previously, he attempted to add a question about citizenship to the census. We here in New York City took him to court and we won. We were successful in getting that question struck from the census. But the conversations about that question really struck fear in the hearts and minds of millions of immigrants around the country and has left them reluctant to participate. In recent months, he's attempting to exclude undocumented immigrants from the final count when it comes to the distribution of seats in Congress. And now he's basically sending another message that he does not want people to be counted.

SB: So you believe this is politically motivated?

AMIT SINGH BAGGA: This is absolutely, unquestionably, a politically motivated attempt to steal the census from Black, Brown, and immigrant communities. Just taking a step back to the citizenship question -- the attempts to add that question was actually the brainchild of a now deceased Republican strategist. And in fact, the memo that he wrote to the Trump campaign in 2016, laying out why that approach would depress participation among immigrants, was taken and copied verbatim by the Trump Justice Department when they originally sent their request to the United States Census Bureau to add that question. So there is a clear paper trail.

SB: Now, the Census Bureau says this is not politically driven. The argument is that they have to cut this short because they're legally obligated to meet a deadline at the end of the year. Why hasn't that deadline been extended?

AMIT SINGH BAGGA: Well, the Census Bureau itself, which is part of the Trump administration, had requested an extension of that deadline to April of next year. Earlier this year, the Trump administration itself had indicated that it would supportive of this deadline, but it essentially has struck a deal with Senate Republicans to block that extension because by artificially blocking that extension, they are essentially forcing the Census Bureau to say that the census must be truncated. And Democrats in both the House and the Senate have put forward legislation to ensure that that timeline is extended. And it's been blocked by Senate Republicans who are, of course, allies of the president.

SB: The Census Bureau has said that it will be adding more staff, it will be asking them to work longer hours to get the job done. But if there is still an undercounting, what are your long term concerns?

AMIT SINGH BAGGA: The long term effects of an undercount here in the United States will simply, in a word, be disastrous. The data that is collected in every census is the basis of all of the decision making for the following 10 years when it comes to trillions and trillions of dollars in federal spending. If we do not have a complete and accurate census, millions and millions of Americans will lose out on dollars that go into their kids public schools, health clinics on their blocks and their neighbourhoods. The roads that they drive on are not going to be repaired or maintained. And, you know, very importantly, people are not going to be fully represented when it comes to Congress making decisions about their futures and their lives.

SB: Mr. Bagga thank you so much for your time.

AMIT SINGH BAGGA: Bye bye.

CH: Amit Singh Bagga is the deputy director of the New York City Mayor's Office of the Census. We reached him in New York.

[Music]

James Ramer

CH: Toronto's new interim police chief has a message for Dafonte Miller: "I'm sorry." In 2016, off-duty police officer Michael Theriault beat Mr. Miller so badly that he was blinded in one eye. But despite the assault, the force did not report it to Ontario's police watchdog. Now, James Ramer says that was a mistake. In June, Mr. Theriault was convicted of assault but was found not guilty of aggravated assault and obstruction of justice. And while Chief Ramer apologized today, he also said that Michael Theriault is still employed by the Toronto Police Service, pending several appeals in the court system. Here's part of today's press conference.

JAMES RAMER: As everyone knows, the matter of the Dafonte Miller and the Theriault Brothers has been a complex case. Even with the recent verdict, the case is far from over. I also want to acknowledge that Mr. Miller's life has forever been impacted by the events of that evening. Today, a report completed by the Office of the Independent Police Review Director and delivered to the Police Services Board has been shared with Dafonte Miller and his counsel. I am not permitted to comment on the details of the report or to release it. I can share that generally, the report focused on the issue of a police service's duty to report to the Special Investigations Unit. It found that on the night in question, we were notified of the actions of Constable Theriault while he was on leave, also known as off-duty. As we have so many times before, we use the information available to us that evening to determine whether we should report to the SIU. We made the wrong decision that night. As a result of that decision, trust has been broken between the police, Dafonte Miller, and the broader community. For that, on behalf of the Toronto Police Service, I want to apologize. From now on, the Toronto Police will notify the SIU in all cases where a police officer has been involved in an incident that results in serious injury. We are revising our procedures in this area and we'll be implementing the new, more robust legislation regarding the reporting requirement for SIU matters. We understand clearly now the legislation does not distinguish between on-duty and off-duty conduct, and neither will we.

CH: There was Toronto's new interim police chief, James Ramer, speaking today.

[Music]

Hawa Abdi

CH: Through famine, displacement and many years of war, Dr. Hawa Abdi ran a hospital and saved the lives of tens of thousands in Somalia. Mama Hawa, as she was affectionately known, died this week in her Mogadishu home. Her original plan was to run a small clinic for women and children on her family's land. But as the country fell apart, Dr. Abdi turned the clinic into a full-fledged hospital and added a school and camp to the property for internally displaced people. By providing aid, Dr. Abdi rejected clan politics in Somalia, which led to her being threatened by militant groups like al-Shabab and al-Qaeda, who in March of 2012 took her land away from her, risking the lives of the people living on it. That's when Dr. Hawa Abdi spoke with guest host Peter Armstrong on this program.

HAWA ABDI: The only thing I had was a land, my happiness, all my efforts that I was doing for my people who assisted a woman in labour, who assisted with children malnutrition. But now they decided to take my land. The space I was working for my people. Al-Qaeda, they have plenty of money so they are using Shabaab military and Shabaab court. And still they did not remove the poor people who was living there for 20 years. I'm afraid that one day they'll clean the place, and I have no possibility of power to stop this thing.

PETER ARMSTRONG: So there are some 400 people that are living there that depend on your care. What happened to them?

HAWA ABDI: Yes, some 400 people -- they wanted to clean the place. And to throw out those, there is no place to go then. Those people they threatened to kill, to destroy, to rob. And my team, they are human being, they can help every person who is suffering.

PETER ARMSTRONG: And you are in Nairobi now. Do you think it's safe for you to go back into Somalia?

HAWA ABDI: [Chuckles] Not now. Not now. My crime is I am a woman and I am educated and I have relations with the people.

PETER ARMSTRONG: What do you think will happen to you if you try to go back?

HAWA ABDI: I don't know. These people are very difficult to trust. They are not respecting. They're not human. You know, sometimes humanity for them does not exist at all.

CH: That was Dr. Hawa Abdi speaking with guest host Peter Armstrong on As It Happens, in March 2012. Dr. Abdi died on Wednesday at her home in Mogadishu, Somalia. She was 73.

[Music]

Deline Hiroshima connection

Guest: Danny Gaudet

CH: 75 years ago today, the United States dropped an atomic bomb on the Japanese city of Hiroshima. The haunting image of the mushroom cloud is now known around the world. Some estimates say 200,000 people died in the combined bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Today, on the other side of the world, in the Northwest Territories, a Dene community still wonders about the role it played in that bombing. During the Second World War, people from the community of Deline worked to help transport uranium from the Port Radium mine on the shores of Great Bear Lake. The uranium was sent south to the U.S., where it was likely used to help make that atomic bomb. Danny Gaudet is a community leader in Deline. That's where we reached him.

SB: Mr. Gaudet, when did you first learn of the connection between your community and the atomic bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima?

DANNY GAUDET: Well, I heard rumors about it since I was a young fella. You hear people talk about it, but they've never really spoke about the connection between the work that they were doing here at Port Radium and the atomic bomb. Until later in the years, the community started doing more research based on the stories of the elders and realized that there was more to this story than just simply mining and transporting.

SB: What more to the story is there?

DG: We come to realize that in 1930, there was a discovery of a radium. Radium was mined there till probably the 1940s and it was switched over to mining for uranium. And at that point, the federal government took control of the mine and took control of all its transportation routes and mined the uranium. There it was transported by our people and was a top secret military site. So very little information was ever shared with our people around this area.

SB: How much have you learned about how big a contribution the community made to the Manhattan Project?

DG: Well, when we started doing our investigations, we developed a relationship with Canada to try to investigate and understand what happened and that took a five year period from 2000 to 2005. And through that process and exercise, we start realizing that they were actually transporting the uranium that was utilized in the Manhattan Project. It was not an enlightening exercise because people weren't too happy with the idea that they were never told what they were doing, what they were contributing to.

SB: How did you feel when you found out about this?

DG: You know, I really felt for the elders that participated. All the carriers, we lost quite a few of them to cancer. They had been transporting -- basically if you're familiar with potato sacks -- the ore was in that. They were hand bombing, carrying it on their shoulders, sleeping on it. We pretty much loss all those guys. And I guess the hardest thing for people to accept was that, you know, they contributed to the bombing of the country. And that was probably the hardest thing for them to accept and the elders had a really hard time with that.

SB: Your community apologized to Japan for its part in the bombing. Why did the community want to do that?

DG: I think one of the biggest things people need to realize about Indigenous people is that saying thank you and forgiving and sharing are huge traits of our tradition and our culture. And finding out about participating in the destruction of Japan and killing so many people really took its toll on our members. And one of the way to heal is, you know, apologizing and asking for forgiveness.

SB: What response did the community receive from Japan?

DG: Japan was very forgiving. And it changed the way people felt. Everybody kind of felt relief. It doesn't take away from what was going on with respect to the war and what Japan was doing to its people. But, you know, it doesn't take away from any of that. We tried to explain to people that this is just our own internal way of dealing with, you know, something that we felt that we got tricked into doing and being part of.

SB: Is that why the community is looking for an apology from the Canadian government?

DG: Yes, that's one big component of it. That's another reason for us to be able to deal with our healing and moving on. You know, we've been put in this position by Canada, and I think Canada certainly owes the community an apology.

SB: What about the health effects on the people? You describe some of the people who worked in the mine being quite ill afterwards.

DG: When we did our exercise of trying to understand what happened, we certainly know our community members that were working there were or living there were exposed to radiation and radon gas and dust and so on. And we know that Canada certainly admits that, yes, people have been exposed. In the end, I think at a minimum, being exposed to radiation and radon triggered, you know, all the issues.

SB: Do you think it's important that communities like yours commemorate this horrific event in history?

DG: We've talked about it internally in the community over time, and there needs to be some type of recognition, there needs to be some type of recognition that this actually happens. It needs to be taught in history so that we don't repeat it. There's a lot of work yet that needs to be discussed. And Canada needs to be part of all of those discussions. I mean, they're the ones that created this issue. And it's not going to go away anytime soon. And the next generations are going to inherit this. It'd be nice for them to inherit something that informs forms of what's happening with the environment, what happened with our people, and it gets recognized. We don't want to be recognized as participating in producing a bomb and we don't want to get it repeated somewhere else.

SB: Mr. Gaudet, thank you so much for your time today. Good to talk to you.

DG: Thank you very much. You're welcome.

CH: Danny Gaudet is a community leader in Deline in the Northwest Territories. That's where we reached him.

[Music]

Toe problem

CH: Head and shoulders, yes. Knees, fine. But the toes have been giving her some trouble -- by breaking off and disappearing for a while. The toes belong to Pauline Bonaparte Borghese, Napoleon's kid sister -- or rather to, the original plaster version of a statue of Ms. Borghese. A neoclassical masterwork by Antonio Canova, which dates back to the early 19th century. And the life-size semi-nude remained fully intact all that time until last Friday, when, after years of peacefully reclining in an Italian museum, she hit rock bottom. That is, her toes were sat upon by the presumably rock hard bottom of a tourist. The man climbed up on her plinth and struck her pose for a photo, trying to emulate her style, I guess. And I don't know if he broke character, but he certainly broke part of her character, the toes. Having snapped the sculptures digits off, the man panicked -- perhaps forgetting that he had recently shared his own digits with the museum for the purposes of contact tracing and also likely forgetting a fact of modern museum life: security footage. So now both the man and the toes have been found. And the man has revealed he is aware of the stupidity of this particular vacation snap. He told police he understands it was a, quote, "stupid move." Toe-uche unnamed tourist. Toe-uche.

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August 6, 2020 Episode Transcript

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