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The AIH Transcript for August 4, 2020

Hosts: Susan Bonner and Chris Howden

Prologue

SUSAN BONNER: Hello, I'm Susan Bonner, sitting in for Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

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CH: Tonight:

SB: Devastation in Beirut. Successive blasts rocked the Lebanese capital. We reach a newspaper editor whose office crumbled around him. He says in the five decades he's covered conflict in the area, he's never seen destruction on this scale.

CH: Veep stakes. Joe Biden is expected to announce his running mate any day now. A Washington political scientist runs down the virtues the Democrats are looking for as they pick a vice.

SB: Scaling back. A new set of guidelines urges doctors to recognize obesity as a complex condition in its own right -- one that has little to do with willpower or body mass index.

CH: Ticked talk. U.S. President Donald Trump says TikTok needs to find an American buyer soon and give American taxpayers a cut of the sale. Our guest says that sounds more than a titch like extortion.

SB: Coupe de grass. After more than 100 years of perfectly manicured lawns, Trinity College Dublin is putting down new roots in the form of wildflower meadows.

CH: And oh to be a fly on the wallet. A Montreal constable is disciplined for his overeager efforts to return a lost wallet just because he went into the owner's house at 2 a.m. to give it back. As It Happens. The Tuesday Edition. Radio that thinks you gotta know when to hold'em and when to bill fold'em.

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Part 1: Beirut explosion

Beirut explosion

Guest: Hanna Anbar

CH: As you've been hearing on the news, fire and explosions rocked Beirut today with one blast near the city's port, sending up a truly terrifying mushroom cloud. Red Cross officials in Lebanon say there are likely hundreds of injuries and fatalities. And the country's health minister says as many as 3000 may be wounded. Hospitals in the capital have been inundated and buildings throughout the city are destroyed, including the offices of the English language newspaper, The Daily Star. Hanna Anbar is an executive editor there. We reached him in Beirut.

SB: Hanna, to begin, how are you doing?

HANNA ANBAR: I am okay. I mean, we had a shock today because our offices were shattered by the explosion. And, you know, luckily nobody was hurt. But our offices are destroyed. So it was a miracle, really, to get out alive. And we just did not know. We are actually maybe about 500 metres or a little with more from the explosion, but we thought it was an explosion on our building because everything crumbled. I mean, the false ceiling fell on me. My room is made of glass so that I can see people working, so it was shattered. It all came next to me and I did not get any splinter in my body. Why? I don't know.

SB: What have you heard from your colleagues and from your friends and family?

HA: They are all all right. I made sure they're all right.

SB: I know you've been out on the streets of Beirut in the past hours. What have you seen?

HA: I've seen blast everywhere -- every road, every side road, you know, every building looks like it has been bombed. It's like an earthquake has hit the country. I have seen the wars. I have covered the wars in this part of the world since 1965, that's 53 years ago. And during the civil war, there were always know explosions, car bombs, but this was the most...well, it made the whole country panic. Hospitals have reached full capacity and they are treating some of the minor injuries on the balconies or on the side roads of the hospitals.

SB: There appear to have been two explosions. And there are many many explanations, theories about what caused them. Some people say it's a blaze from the fireworks factory. Some people are wondering whether it was detonation of a cache of explosive materials that was confiscated by the government years ago. What is the most credible explanation, in your view?

HA: We don't know what really happened. Everybody's talking about fireworks, which is a joke. You know, if there are fireworks, maybe there were fireworks next to that warehouse. But basically, the big explosion is serious and it is definitely not fireworks. What we are trying to find out is: is there a report that says what is in that warehouse? There should be a report somewhere. And that will solve a lot of problems. Until then, there is so many speculations -- you know some say Israel rockets, some say it was by mistake, some say it's sabotage. To be honest with you, all these conspiracy theories are going around, but to be honest, I really don't know. I don't think until there is an investigation, nobody will be able to tell you exactly what was in that warehouse, why it happened, and who did it, and was it an accident or was it something sabotage? So that is the situation in a nutshell.

SB: Lebanon's president has called for an emergency meeting of the country's supreme defence.

HA: He has. This is routine. He has done that. And after that, the prime minister made a speech where he promised that those responsible for this act will be, you know, will be announced or whatever. And he has appealed to friendly and brotherly countries to aid Lebanon. And so this is basically probably nothing.

SB: Now, all of this, of course, is happening as the country is struggling to deal with the COVID pandemic. And Lebanon's economy is spiraling. How will people cope with this now, on top of all of that?

HA: I really I have no description for this. The country is really going down, down, down every day. You see, we don't have lots of resources. We rely on tourism. We rely on investment from abroad. We rely on construction. We rely on import and export. These are the factors that bring money into this country. We have tens of first-class hotels. We have hundreds of restaurants. And all these are not functioning at the moment. So to your question, how are people coping? It's really really a very serious problem. And we don't know for how long we can cope with this situation. We cannot make plans for tomorrow or after tomorrow. We make plans day by day and we don't know where we're going. Honestly, we don't know where we're going.

SB: Well, Hanna I am glad that you and your family and colleagues are safe. And thank you for talking to us today.

HA: Thank you very much. That's very kind of you. I hope the next time we go on the air we'll be talking about something more cheerful.

SB: I hope so too. Thank you very much.

HA: Thank you.

CH: Hanna Anbar is an executive editor at the English language Lebanese newspaper, The Daily Star. We reached him in Beirut. And for the latest on this story, go to cbcnews.ca.

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Obesity guidelines

Guest: Ian Patton

CH: What if everything you thought you knew about obesity was off base? For years, people trying to keep their weight down have been told the same thing: eat less, exercise more. Now, the national charity Obesity Canada is calling on doctors to re-examine that simplistic advice. The charity has issued a new set of guidelines for treating obesity. It says doctors need to look beyond a patient's weight and instead focus on how their body fat is impacting their health. And doctors need to look for solutions that go beyond dieting. Ian Patton is one of the authors of the report published today in the Canadian Medical Association Journal. We reached him in Bowmanville, Ontario.

SB: Mr. Patton, what harm is done by traditional thinking about obesity?

IAN PATTON: I think the harm comes in the weight bias and kind of discrimination that, you know, we as a society have kind of developed because of our lack of understanding of obesity as a chronic disease. So for people that are living with obesity, you know, were treated differently in health care, in their employment settings. And I think there's a lot of damage that can be done with that. So, you know, now that we have these new guidelines, we have a clearer understanding of what obesity is and how to manage it appropriately.

SB: Well, tell us a bit more about how these new guidelines would change the definition of obesity and how it's managed.

IP: Well, obesity traditionally has been defined by body mass index. The problem with that is that BMI is not intended for individual use. It's more of a population level data tool. And so it doesn't tell you anything about your individual health. Our new guidelines have redefined obesity, which is in alignment with a lot of the scientific literature. So our definition would be when excess, adiposity or fat mass impairs health. And that's a key term is that it impairs health. So in that way, someone could be living in a larger body but have otherwise perfect health, that person would not be considered to have obesity. Whereas someone who, you know, might be even normal weight and has excess adipose tissue in certain areas of their body that are impairing the health, that person would actually have obesity. So it kind of drastically changes the way we look at obesity.

SB: This is not at all an abstract question for you, is it? This is something you've dealt with personally. What was it like for you growing up?

IP: Yeah, I have lived experience. I grew up with obesity. Pretty much my entire life, I was the big kid in school. My weight kind of continued to get higher and higher as I got older, you know, through high school and something that started making me really sick when I got into my university years. So, you know, I started as everyone else doing the diet and exercise and starvation. You know, haven't had the success that I needed to get control of my health in that sense. So I realized I needed to do something different. And for me, that was seeking out help. So I had bariatric surgery in 2014 and have kind of followed up and continued my obesity management since then.

SB: What message were you getting from health professionals at the time?

IP: The initial stuff I was getting was the basic 'eat less, move more' narrative. You know, I was telling them that I was sick and not feeling well. And I literally thought that the fat was killing me. I was really really not well. And I had a doctor tell me why you should go home and start eating more salad and maybe start moving a little bit more. Why don't you start exercising, going for walks? At that point in time, I was completing my PhD in obesity research. I was an exercise physiologist. So it wasn't a lack of knowledge or anything on my behalf. There was something more significant going on there. So I think these new guidelines kind of touch on how complex that issue is.

SB: As you point out, you're a kinesiologist and an exercise physiologist, you know and understand how the body works. Why is it that diet and exercise is such a tricky prescription for weight loss? Why does it fail so often?

IP: I think it's that we're framing it the wrong way. So up until now, we've been using diet and exercise as the cure for obesity. And the problem with that is that it is such a short sighted kind of approach to a very very complex issue. So this is something that goes way beyond personal behaviours. There's genetic factors and you've got hormonal and metabolic and physiological components that have zero individual control. I'm not saying that diet and exercise aren't something that we should be doing. Everyone on the planet essentially could be eating better and, you know, exercising more. But it's not a cure for any chronic conditions in and of itself. There's more going on. So it's just not that simple.

SB: So what is it specifically that Obesity Canada is recommending that doctors do instead?

IP: I think first and foremost, we need everyone -- so doctors, government policymakers and the public in general, we need everyone to recognize that obesity is a chronic disease. We have the science. We have the information out there. And then the second step would be to utilize these new guidelines that outline that roadmap on how we can effectively treat obesity with evidence based information.

SB: Would you recommend that people who are overweight but still healthy, would you recommend that they lose weight as well?

IP: No, I don't think so. I would recommend that everyone maintain healthy lifestyles as much as they happily can do. So, you know, eating as healthy as they can while being happy about it and moving their body as much as they can while being happy about it. But unless there is a medical reason to do so than weight loss shouldn't be a targeted goal for anyone, really. And in and of itself, weight loss is not a great indicator of success or health.

SB: Well, how does that fit into the society we live in?

IP: It kind of goes against everything that everyone believes and understand. So I imagine there's going to be some friction with it. But I'm hoping that people realize that there's something more significant going on when it comes to obesity. And I mean, there's a reason why people who are tried to lose weight, you hear about yo-yo and you're trying to fight against your own body in keeping the weight off. And it's not something that many people can do on their own. It's not something that you can control with willpower.

SB: Mr. Patton, so good to talk to you. Thanks very much.

IP: Thank you.

CH: Ian Patton is the director of advocacy for Obesity Canada. He was in Bowmanville, Ontario.

[Music]

TikTok sale

Guest: Charlotte Jee

CH: U.S. President Donald Trump wants a piece of TikTok. The president has demanded that the popular Chinese-owned app must be sold to an American company, citing national security concerns. He also says that when that sale happens, the U.S. Treasury should get a cut. He says TikTok needs to pay American taxpayers as compensation for operating in the United States. And if there's no deal to sell to a U.S. buyer by September 15th, he will ban the app. Charlotte Jee is a reporter with the M.I.T. Technology Review. We reached her in London.

SB: Ms. Jee, President Trump says TikTok should pay the U.S. Treasury a, "substantial portion of its sale to an American firm." How unusual is that demand?

CHARLOTTE JEE: It's extremely unusual. I mean, I don't think that we've ever seen a president get this directly involved in business affairs. Trump does have a degree of form in this area, like he has certainly waded into previous business dealings, but never on this level where he is essentially kind of saying, I'm going to ban this company unless they can be bought by an American company, which feels a little bit like extortion.

SB: Is it even legal?

CJ: That is a really good question. And I've been asking myself the same question. I'm not sure that it is because I don't know exactly how they would enforce a ban. I imagine that they will have some lawyers looking at that right now, but it's not clear to me that it is legal.

SB: Now, President Trump has suggested that the need for TikTok to be owned by an American company comes from the fear that the app is giving personal data from Americans to the Chinese government. What evidence is there that Americans privacy might be compromised?

CJ: Okay. I think there are kind of two different things going on here. So Americans privacy is being compromised by TikTok to the extent that it is collecting data about them when they download the app from their phones. But it's being no more compromised than it is by Facebook. The question that we really have to zoom in on is whether or not there's data being sent to China. And I don't see any evidence that is happening. TikTok doesn't operate in China. It's owned by a Chinese company that it's separately owned in the rest of the world. So it's not directly being run out of China. It doesn't have servers in China. So it doesn't store any data on U.S. citizens in China. So I don't see the mechanism through which it is alleged to be happening. We have not been presented with any evidence that it is happening.

SB: How much do you believe this is connected to the contretemps that's going on between China and the U.S. right now?

CJ: I think that's absolutely what it comes down to. I think it's basically a ratcheting up of the pressure of the trade war between the U.S. and China. It's partly is because, you know, TikTok is the first major app that's become wildly popular in America that isn't made by an American company. And I think it taps into some American insecurities around an app that doesn't come from their shores doing very very well. And I think the fact it's Chinese is another layer, given the degree of anti-China sentiment that there seems to be floating about in the White House right now.

SB: Why not just come out and say he wants to ban it?

CJ: I mean, that is a really good question. I don't really know. I mean, initially that was what he'd said. But then he backtracked and then made it about, oh, it has to be bought by a U.S. company. I mean, I guess that what they're trying to say is that if it's owned by an American company, then that allays any fears that they may have about data being sent to China on U.S. citizens, which to reiterate, there isn't any evidence that's happening. But that would give the appearance of having solved that issue. But I don't really understand exactly what the concern is. It is actually pretty baffling and it's pretty kind of bullying behaviour as well that we're seeing from Trump.

SB: Microsoft seems interested in buying. Does it look like this deal will go ahead?

CJ: I think, you know, a lot can change in 45 days, which is how long they have to hammer out a deal. I'm sure that Microsoft is really interested. I mean, frankly, I think that most big tech companies would be interested because TikTok has got a huge growing audience in there and their young audience as well.

SB: Now, the state-run China daily newspaper has said that Beijing would not accept the, "theft of a Chinese technology company" and it warned of retaliation. What might that look like?

CJ: Yeah, good question. I mean, China has certainly ramped up the rhetoric, but it hasn't really taken much of the sort of reciprocal action that it's been threatening when it comes to things like, you know, Huawei being banned in the U.S.. It's difficult because you know what? There aren't that many big U.S. tech companies in China now anyway. So I don't really know that they have room for a new maneuver that big. I think probably they were upset and they have a lot of anger about it, but I don't know how much they can respond. But to be clear, it is you know, I hate to say this because, you know, there are lots of issues with China and its government -- but on this one, they kind of have a point. It does feel like one of the companies that the Chinese entity has set up is kind of being extorted and taken away from them in a slightly bullying mafia like manner.

SB: If the deal goes through, I mean, how much of this is really about a business deal and how much of this is about presidential bluster?

CJ: I think it's all about presidential bluster. I really do. I mean, I think that Microsoft has to tread so carefully here, because if they put themselves up as having gained TikTok through Donald Trump, get doing them a favour, that would look really bad. I think it's all way too close for comfort.

SB: What about TikTok users themselves? This is a popular app. How worried should devotees be that they might lose the app they love?

CJ: Yeah, I think that there are lots of teens who are very scared in the U.S. right now. And, you know, in some ways I really feel for them because much of the older generation may struggle to understand but TikTok has been a huge tonic for them during a very difficult time in a very trying few months. So I think there's a lot of fear, a lot of anger about the potential for that to be taken away from them. People shouldn't really panic yet. We don't have anything concrete at the moment. It is mostly bluster. I would be really surprised if TikTok is fully banned in the U.S., ceases to exist operating there. I think, and I don't know exactly how this will happen, but I really can't see it completely disappearing.

SB: Ms. Jee thank you for your time today. Good to talk to you.

CJ: Thank you very much.

CH: Charlotte Jee writes for the M.I.T. Technology Review. She was in London.

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Wallet return

CH: Losing your wallet is often a wakeup call, but it's usually not a literal one. In August of 2017, a citizen turned in a lost wallet to Montreal police officer Ghyslain Lavoie. Using his sleuthing, Constable Lavoie determined it belonged to the daughter of lawyer Yves Gratton. Then not using his sleuthing at all, the constable went to the Gratton house at 3:22 a.m. and knocked on the door. No response, for some reason. The next day, having learned his lesson, Constable Lavoie returned to the Gratton home at a reasonable hour, 1:46 a.m.. First, he found another wallet in an unlocked car parked outside. Then he and his partner knocked on the door again for a bit and finally finding the backdoor open, they just went inside to ensure no one was in there who shouldn't be -- besides them. As part of his thorough investigation, the constable walked all the way upstairs. It was then, the report on the incident reads, that the lawyer and his wife perceived Constable Lavoie in their home in the middle of the night. I feel like perceived probably doesn't quite nail the vibe. But anyway, after this surprising perception, Constable Lavoie was like, 'Cool, you're up.' Gave both wallets to Mr. Gratton and helpfully suggested he lock his doors at night. At which point he left. At which point Mr. Gratton called 911. Three years later, Constable Ghyslain Lavoie has just been handed a three day suspension and he has admitted he was kind of a dork for doing all that stuff in a house where everyone was asleep. But then it's always dorky-est before the dawn.

[Music]

Part 2: Biden VP

Biden VP

Guest: Laura Brown

CH: It's 91 days until the U.S. presidential election. And after a long wait, presumptive Democratic nominee Joe Biden has announced there will be a slightly longer wait before he announces his running mate, which means speculation is still rampant. Some of the names being floated in the media include former national security advisor Susan Rice, Senators Kamala Harris and Tammy Duckworth, and Representative Karen Bass. Mr. Biden has committed to selecting a woman as his vice presidential pick. Laura Brown is a political scientist. She's an associate professor and the director of the Graduate School of Political Management at the George Washington University. We reached her in Washington, D.C..

SB: Ms. Brown, what do you think Joe Biden needs in a running mate?

LAURA BROWN: This is a great question because this issue has changed over the course of this election cycle. Typically, we see presidential nominees looking for somebody to balance their ticket, to bring a sense of another part of their political party or another regional or sort of demographic constituency to their ticket. That is true with Vice President Biden. He has long had a reputation as an establishment moderate Democrat from the mid-Atlantic region in the United States. And it is the case that when you look at the Democratic Party, it has become more progressive over time. It is also representative of more women and people of colour than it is of just white men. And so there is a need and I think a desire on the part of Vice President Biden to bring some balance demographically and perhaps regionally to the ticket. But I say that it has changed over the course of this election cycle this year, because in the early part of the year, there was a sense that Vice President Biden were he to win the nomination would be up against a stronger President Trump. And there was a sense that it was going to be vitally important that he picked someone who brought enthusiasm to the ticket. That is no longer the case, as we've seen over the last few months President Trump's poll numbers have dropped. Vice President Biden's numbers have increased. And now really what the Democrats most need is a vice presidential pick who will do no harm or cause any of the dynamics that are currently sustaining the poll numbers as they are to change.

SB: Given all of that, who do you believe Joe Biden will be choosing as his running mate?

LB: Well, I do think that Senator Kamala Harris is the safest pick, because when you look at the fact that she ran in the nomination race with him, that's very important. It means that she has already been vetted by the media to a certain extent. She dropped out of the presidential race quickly when she did not win. And that was seen as a sign that she wanted to help move this process toward a conclusion and to ensure that the Democrats had a strong nominee. And it is also the case that she, as a woman, an African-American, does represent a larger base within the Democratic Party, that Biden just doesn't have the ability to sort of connect with in the same way.

SB: She also clashed with Joe Biden in a rather personal way during the campaign. And when you look back at the relationship between Joe Biden and Barack Obama, it was a very close relationship. And I'm wondering how that might factor into how Biden views Harris.

LB: Frankly, I think that this is a story that should not have legs. And I say that because when you look at past presidential and vice presidential relationships, the majority of them have been between two candidates who did clash and did represent separate wings of their party. Any suggestion that Senator Harris's kind of fair play, you know, combativeness in a debate was somehow overly personal or was wrongheaded, I would argue actually has a tremendous number of sexist connotations and should not really be raised.

SB: How much sexism has there been in this debate surrounding Biden's considerations, given that we're seeing an all-female slate of candidates and primarily all Black women?

LB: Well, I do think that there is always an undercurrent of sexism when we talk about women as leaders. There is always this suggestion that women should somehow be more moral or more loyal or operate by a different set of rules than men would were they considered in the same types of positions of leadership. And I think we can look back certainly on how Geraldine Ferraro was portrayed in 1984 and how Sarah Palin was portrayed in 2008. In those vice presidential rolls to see that sexism was a large part of the discussion and the debate was filtered through many of these kind of sexist tropes. It is unfortunate, but the reality is when you look at both Vice President Mondale and, in fact, Senator John McCain in 2008, you can see that neither of their campaigns were actually winning campaigns. And it is striking how often those two women, Geraldine Ferraro and Sarah Palin, are considered to be the reason that those campaigns lost. And that is not at all the truth of the political science fundamentals or, in fact, the nature of how those races played forward.

SB: With the anti-racism protests that are going on in the United States and around the world, what weight would Joe Biden likely give to a candidate like California Congressperson Karen Bass, who's head of the Congressional Black Caucus, who's pushing for police reform in Washington right now?

LB: Well, I do think that one of the reasons why we see so many African-American women being considered for this position is not just because of the civil rights issues and the racial protests, but also because Vice President Biden really owes his nomination to African-Americans. Were it not for his resounding win in South Carolina, which was because of such a large turnout of African-American voters who supported his candidacy, he would not likely have become the party's nominee. So I think there is a desire to reach out, not just to women who do make up the backbone of the party, but also African-Americans who were particularly important in his nomination race and to extend a hand and represent those constituencies in his vice presidential pick.

SB: Ms. Brown, thanks for your guidance on this.

LB: Thank you for having me on.

CH: Laura Brown is an associate professor and the director of the Graduate School of Political Management at the George Washington University. She was also a political appointee at the U.S. Department of Education in Bill Clinton's administration. We reached her in D.C.. And you can find that interview on the As it Happens website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Glenn Singleton

CH: Last week, Glenn Singleton was looking forward to a relaxing few days. He had rented a cottage with his wife on St. Margaret's Bay in Nova Scotia. And after unpacking, he decided to take a dip in the ocean. But his cooling swim became downright chilling when Mr. Singleton encountered something in the water, a creature that left him with a broken arm. He told our friend Jeff Douglas, host of CBC's Mainstreet, about the disturbing encounter.

GLENN SINGELTON: The water was only up to about my chest then, and everything looked fine. So I kind of went into the water and took a few strokes and then rolled over onto my back just decided to leisurely float on my back. And all of a sudden there was a crack. It sounded like someone hit a home run. And the excruciating instant pain was unbelievable. I stood up, I was still in water that where I could stand up. And there was a lot of water splashing. I kind of half caught something swimming away. But I can't say exactly what it was. Then my arm from the elbow down was just kind of dangling. And I grabbed hold of it and lifted it up as best I could and got the heck out of the water back to shore. That's the best language coming out to me to be honest with you, I wasn't sure what happened. First I thought, it my having some kind of jellyfish or stinging of some sort. Didn't swell as much as I thought it for something as broken as it ended up being. We're from Dartmouth, so we went back to Dartmouth. My wife dropped me off at Dartmouth General and on Thursday I went through the process there. They took the X-ray. Yeah, it's not a pretty looking thing. I asked the medical people about it, whether I banged into some kind of rock or something. And they said that wouldn't happen if you banged into a rock, whatever hit you had some significant propulsion and power happening. And talking to some people in the area and that, they were speculating that it could have been what they call a dogfish shark.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Now, what do you have for a cast on you right now?

GLENN SINGELTON: They took a big old, heavy, clunky cast off and they fitted me with one of those new third millennium kind of hard plastic, all together with a bunch of straps and Velcro. Much lighter and easier to manage.

JEFF DOUGLAS: And can you go swimming with it on?

GLENN SINGELTON: No, I'm not going swimming for a while.

JEFF DOUGLAS: I bet you're not.

CH: Glenn Singleton had his arm broken by what may have been a dogfish shark while swimming off Nova Scotia last week. He was speaking with Jeff Douglas, host of CBC's Main Street.

[Music]

John Hume

CH: In the darkest days of the troubles in Northern Ireland, John Hume was known as the man who kept hope alive. The former leader of the Social Democratic and Labour Party and one of the architects of the Good Friday Agreement died yesterday. He was 83. Mr. Hume won a Nobel Peace Prize for his role in putting an end to 25 years of sectarian violence in Northern Ireland. Behind his strategy was persistence, creativity, and a lot of risk taking. One big risk included holding secret talks with his political foe, Gerry Adams, the leader of Sinn Fein. In October of 1993, As It Happens, spoke with John Hume right after British Prime Minister John Major found out about those talks and publicly denounced them. Here's part of Michael Enright's conversation with John Hume from our archives.

JOHN HUME: Our talks when we started, we wanted them to be totally private until we had finished. Unfortunately, it leaked out. The pressures that it created by it leaking out are quite enormous. But in spite of all of that, we will stick to our task.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: But the point seems to be, in Prime Minister Major's mind, that the Sinn Fein renounced violence before any talks even begin.

JOHN HUME: Well, I have been in this city where I through the past 20 years and I've seen everything. The terrible loss of life, et cetera. And what we are doing and what our talks are about are saving human life. And I would assume that everybody supports that. And I don't think it's too much to ask people to suspend their judgment until our process is complete.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: You and Gerry Adams have been on opposite sides of this for 25 years. You've been enemies, so to speak...

JOHN HUME: We have been totally opposed.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: How did you get together with Mr. Adams to come up with this proposal?

JOHN HUME: Well, we have been engaged in a very major public debate now for quite some considerable time. And then I was approached by some clergy who felt that the time had been reached when, in fact, real dialog at a private level might make progress. And we engaged in that dialog because I believe it's my public duty to do everything in my power, particularly talking.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Is it your feeling that if you two can sit down and talk, then the British government can sit down, talk?

JOHN HUME: Well, it is my view that at the end of the day, dialog and everybody talking with the objective of agreement, an agreement which has the allegiance of the different sections of our people, and that's what we have stated. A lot of the people who have reacted negatively, haven't reacted to what we have said, they've reacted in keeping with their prejudices. And of course, in divided societies, prejudices and distrust runs very deep. It's not an easy task. It's a very difficult task. But I believe that dialog is not only the correct way, at the end of the day, it's the only way that is going to bring all this to an end.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Mr. Hume at the emotional level, at the gut level, do you think you're close on this one?

JOHN HUME: Well, I have said and I don't say these things lightly, but having been through the last 20 years and what our people in Northern Ireland have been through, this is the most hopeful initiative that I have been involved in.

CH: Northern Irish politician John Hume speaking with former As It Happens, host Michael Enright in October 1993. The Nobel Peace Prize winner died yesterday. He was 83 years old.

[Music]

Red flag

Guest: John Parnell

CH: If you've been to Dublin, you may have paid a visit to the city's Trinity College. And if you did, you may have entered the stately university campus through the front gate. Outside that front entrance for about a century and a half were lush, well-manicured lawns. But now, after a public vote in which more than 10,000 people participated, they've been turned into wildflower meadows to support local pollinators. John Parnell is a professor of systematic botany at Trinity College Dublin. He's also the chair of Trinity's Grounds and Gardens Committee. We reached him in Dublin.

SB: Professor Parnell, how much different are these lines going to like in the spring when the flowers begin to bloom?

JOHN PARNELL: Hopefully very different indeed, because they'll be essentially non flowering over the autumn and winter period. And we've hopefully got species that will come into bloom very early on in the spring. We hope that we'll get a variety of colours throughout the year and that will reflect the different species which are flowering at any one time. So the area will look from time to time, white or it may look pink, or it may look slightly green when things aren't flowering.

SB: How did you decide which species, which wildflowers to plant?

JP: Oh, that's a difficult question to answer. Essentially, you're fairly constrained partly by the area itself. It's quite shaded. So you can't just plant anything there. You have to choose a series of species which flower throughout the year, which are native and which are going to do well in shade and which also are not going to be highly invasive. So the choice of species was always made for us by those criteria, but also by the fact of, you know, what can you get commercially? So that was also a consideration.

SB: Was it important to choose a species of Irish origin?

JP: Yes, it was. And so far as we can, that's what we would like to be able to do, because obviously, if you have things which are native -- plants species which are native -- then the indigenous insects and ground flora and fauna are going to be pre-adapted to them. So it's better if you can choose something which is a native species.

SB: So it's about the insects and not about the esthetic look.

JP: No, we've tried to do both. I mean, obviously, this is an iconic frontage. Part of the reason that we had a vote on this was that we knew that people were attached to a very tidy, nice green space outside the iconic entrance to the college.

SB: It's part of your history, that look.

JP: I mean, the university is older than the West Front. I mean, considerably older than the West Front. The building itself was -- I can't remember the exact date -- but it was sometime in the 1750s that the West Front was constructed. And the grass lawns, which are in front of the West Front now, weren't always there. It was a paved area, initially. So we've had change. And I suppose it's just one more change that we're seeing. And also we decided to do it partly because we wanted it to make a statement as well, that we're worried about the oblation of biodiversity and we want to support the All-Ireland Pollinator Plan. So this is more or less the last area that on the campus that we were able to convert to Wildflower Meadow. We've spent a few years before this just trying it out and seeing how they do elsewhere on the campus. And we felt we're in a position now to probably make this a success, whereas a few years ago we probably weren't.

SB: Yeah. When people picture these historic college campuses like Trinity, they do, I think, conjure up this image of perfectly manicured lawns. And how would you like people to reimagine the college campus?

JP: Well, I wouldn't like them to think that we're getting rid of all the grass. That's certainly not what we're doing. There are a number of areas were putting in a wildflower area would just be the wrong thing to do, either architecturally or because of its use. So obviously, all of the areas on the campus which we use for sports, for example, I mean, you could hardly have a rugby pitch or a cricket pitch or GAA that's our football pitch covered in wildflowers. I mean, that's obviously daft. And you can't either have wildflowers in areas where people can easily get access to it because they'll walk through it and it'll look terrible. So there's a restricted number of places where we can have wildflowers. So I'd like people to admire our very well kept grass areas. And they are now very very well-kept. But I'd also like them to be aware that we as a university want to do something about the biodiversity crisis and that we're doing what we can on a very prominent site.

SB: Can you remind us why it is so important to have more wild flower meadows like this in your city and in other cities?

JP: Yeah sure. I mean, one of the things, one of the groups of pollinating insects that occur in Ireland are bees. We've got just under 100 species of bees. About a third of them are threatened with extinction. And that's a serious matter because we rely on pollinators for a lot of our food, not wheat or anything like that, but a lot of our fruit crops, for example, strawberries or apples, rely on insect pollination. And if we don't have the pollinators, we won't have the fruit crop. So we've got to try to just from a selfish point of view, do something about that. And also, I think it's just a shame to lose biodiversity even if it didn't have an impact on ourselves directly. I think it's a shame to lose species. And I spent my entire academic life trying to describe and discover new species of plants. So I don't want to lose anything.

SB: Well, Professor Parnell, good luck with it all and thank you for telling us about it.

JP: It's a pleasure. Nice to chat to you.

SB: You too. Bye bye.

JP: Bye.

CH: John Parnell is a professor of systematic botany at Trinity College Dublin. That's where we reached him.

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August 4, 2020 Episode Transcript

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