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The AIH Transcript for July 30, 2020

Hosts: Susan Bonner and Chris Howden

SUSAN BONNER: Hello, I'm Susan Bonner, sitting in for Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I’m Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

SB: Keeping up appearances. All eyes are on Justin Trudeau as he tries to explain his ties to the WE Charity. We reach a former prime ministerial adviser who knows a thing or two about political theatre to size up the PM's performance.

CH: Homegoing. Mourners gathered in Atlanta, Georgia today to say a final farewell to the late U.S. Congressman John Lewis. Former President Barack Obama was there to eulogize the man who championed good trouble.

SB: An inside job. After spending months barred from visiting her dementia-stricken husband, a Florida woman finds a way in by picking up a job as a part-time dishwasher in his nursing home.

CH: Diminishing returns. Today, Ontario rolled out its plan for getting kids back to school this fall. But the head of the province's elementary teachers union tells us there's a lot more to do before class is in session.

SB: Nice to see you. It's been a Whale. COVID has made life underwater quieter than it's been in a long time. We reach a wildlife biologist in Alaska who says the humpbacks are thrilled.

CH: And... From Our Archives: give fleece a chance. A Scottish woman has seller's remorse after letting go of her lamb, Norman. And after a seven-hour journey, she discovers Norman misses her, too.

CH: As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that defies an order to abandon ship.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Trudeau testimony: David Herle, Ontario schools plan, From Our Archives: Norman the lamb

Trudeau testimony: David Herle

Guest: David Herle

CH: If Justin Trudeau thinks his appearance at committee today will satisfy his critics, he should probably think again. The Prime Minister spent an hour-and-a-half in the hot seat at a finance committee meeting — a rare thing for a sitting PM. He told the committee that, quote, "time was of the essence," when WE Charity was chosen to administer a 900-million-dollar student volunteer program. He said he was well aware of the possible negative perceptions, given his family connections to the charity — and regrets not recusing himself from cabinet discussions. Pierre Poilievre didn't buy it. Here's the Conservative MP questioning the Prime Minister.

PIERRE POILIEVRE: Prime minister, you twice were found guilty of breaking the Ethics Act. After those two convictions, did you decide to read the act? You’ve got 14 seconds, prime minister.

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Yes, I have read the act a number of times.

PP: Are you aware of Section 21?

JT: Yes, since I've read the act, I'm aware of Section --

PP: What does it say?

JT: I can pull it up for you, but if you have it in front of you --

PP: well, it says a public officeholder, of which you are one, shall recuse himself or herself from any discussion, decision, debate, vote, or any matter in which, in respect of which, he or she would be in a conflict of interest. Now, what you've admitted today is not just that you were in a conflict of interest, but that you consciously recognized in your May cabinet meeting that such a conflict might exist. That it didn't just slide by your desk. That you were consciously aware that there was an inappropriate link to your family that would put you in a conflict. Why did you at that moment not call the ethics commissioner and recuse yourself?

JT: My concern around recusing myself was a question around perceptions. Because I knew full well that this Canada Summer Students Grant Program --

PP: Your 16 seconds are up.

JT: Was not going to directly benefit my mother or my brother.

PP: How much money total have your brother, mother and spouse received from this organization? How much?

JT: That information has been publicly shared. But I will highlight that my mother --

PP: Well then, tell me what it is?

JT: My mother has --

PP: How much, in just the dollar figure?

JT: Throughout her life --

PP: The dollar figure, prime minister. How much?

JT: She’s proud of what she’s done. And I'm proud of --

PP: How much? I'm looking for a dollar figure.

JT: We can get that number for you if you like. It's been out in the media.

PP: It's been out in the media, but you don't know it?

JT: I don't have it in front of me. And quite frankly --

PP: You don't know how much your family has received from this organization, which you tried to give a half-billion dollars. Really?

JT: Can I answer, Mr. Poilievre?

PP: I'm waiting. You haven't done an answer so far. Let's make this the first one.

CH: That was Conservative MP Pierre Poilievre grilling the Prime Minister this afternoon. David Herle knows what it's like to work for a leader in a tight spot. He was an advisor to former Prime Minister Paul Martin, and is now a political consultant. We reached him in Toronto.

SB: David Herle, how did Justin Trudeau hold up against this grilling today by the finance committee?

DAVID HERLE: I thought he held up pretty well, actually. To be honest, I think he emerged from this largely unscathed. I think that he had a terrific demeanor throughout, was largely more normal and more likable than the people that were interrogating him. But more fundamentally, I don't think anything emerged in this testimony that advances the story from the opposition's perspective. Mr. Trudeau outlined a slightly new scenario around which he himself had been aware of... disappointed that WE was going to be doing the program, and had pushed back against the bureaucracy on that to even further buttress the argument that he had nothing to do with awarding this contract to WE. And that's the central point of the allegation. Is that the government itself conceived of this program for WE and directed it to WE for WE’s benefit. And I don't think anything came out in Mr Trudeau's testimony that advances that argument at all.

SB: But, David, if he admitted, as he did, that he suspected there would be extra scrutiny because of his and his family's connections to WE. And he pushed this back to the public service and said really scrutinize this. We've got to be extra careful here. If he knew that much, why then didn't he recuse himself when it did come to cabinet?

DH: Yeah, well, I don't think he answered that question. And, you know, that's a judgment question. I mean, I hate to get technical about this, but recusal doesn't matter if you didn't conceive of and direct the program. Now, there is the whole issue of conflict and perceived conflicts with him. And he is making the argument, which is perhaps a little thin, that because none of his family stood to benefit from this particular program, that there was no conflict. The commissioner may have a different view of that, but I don't think it looks any worse today than it did yesterday.

SB: But does that get to the one big question surrounding this, David? You mentioned judgment. You know, what was the prime minister thinking? This is his third ethical lapse in five years. Why does he have trouble figuring this out?

DH: Um, well, I would only be speculating, Susan. But if I was to speculate, I would speculate on two things, that he thinks of himself as somebody that does good in life. He thinks of himself very virtuously. He doesn't have this perhaps self-awareness that is required to see how other people see you and other people see your relationships. So I don't think he sees the things he's doing the way outsiders see them.

SB: Is that another way of saying, David, that he doesn't think the rules apply to him?

DH: No, no, it isn't, because that's what I was going to say, Susan is that that's not uncommon to people. It's not uncommon even in normal people to not be that self-aware about yourself. But, you know, in politics, you can get removed from things. And you can develop some blindspots. Mr. Trudeau wouldn't be the first or only person I've seen with this. And that comes to the second point, which is in order to not get in trouble, you need to have a situation in which people feel able and empowered to challenge you without fear of retribution. And so, you know, its staff are the people who save politicians from themselves. They are the ones who point these things out to them and fight with them and convince them either that it is a conflict or tell them you can't do it, even if you don't understand that it's a conflict. And I don't know that they've got that culture inside that government. And I think the combination of his own sense of himself and that lack of a challenge function leads to these kinds of things.

SB: David, what do you think the political calculation was behind his decision to volunteer to appear?

DH: I think that they correctly assess that the issue was not going well for them politically. So I presume that they concluded that he needed to address that. And that this was the right forum in which to do that. And I also suspected that they thought when he was jammed up against Mr. Poilievre and Mr. Cooper and Mr. Barrett, that he wouldn't do badly in that comparison and those exchanges. And I think they were right.

SB: OK. So we now know that on top of the speaking fees the prime minister's mother and brother received, they were also reimbursed for expenses. In Margaret Trudeau's case, I think it was 167-thousand dollars in expenses. These are large sums to the average Canadian. Do you think Justin Trudeau convinced Canadians that he's not out of touch?

DH: No, I don't. And I think that's probably one of the great problems for the government that comes out of this is that no matter what the ultimate resolution of the facts situation is, even if it is completely in the government's favour, it is leaving an impression, and it's leaving an impression that existed already, that the Trudeau government, people at the centre of it, are relatively either wealthy or well-off and they associate with people who are wealthy or well-off. And that is why just because the issue starts to diminish in terms of its headline capacity, that doesn't mean you've gotten away with it. The next election is not going to be about this thing. The next election is going to be about who has a plan to create jobs and in the economic devastation that will follow the COVID virus. That's what the election is going to be about. But that doesn't mean that issues like this don't have an impact on your credibility. So I think the government is probably going to escape from this issue without further damage. But that doesn't mean the damage which hasn't been done. You know, from the time you get elected, you start putting bricks in a wall that will ultimately defeat you. And this is at least a couple of heavy bricks on that wall.

SB: David Herle, thank you for your time.

DH: Susan, it was my pleasure to be here. Thank you for asking.

SB: Goodbye.

DH: Goodbye.

CH: David Herle is a political consultant and principal partner at the Gandalf Group — and was a top advisor to former Prime Minister Paul Martin. He's in Toronto. Following Prime Minister Trudeau's appearance today, his chief of staff Katie Telford took questions from MPs for two hours. Here's an exchange she had with Conservative MP Michael Barrett.

MICHAEL BARRETT: The prime minister testified today that the option given to the cabinet was WE or nothing. Why did the Cabinet accept this supposed binary choice? Why not ask for options, you know? Is this a government run by the public service, or is it run by cabinet? Because the accountability rests with the head of government. It rests with the cabinet. So I'm getting pretty frustrated hearing, you know, how much respect that the members of cabinet have for the public service while throwing them under the bus instead of taking accountability for their decision.

KATIE TELFORD: So I want to just address two things you said there. One is no one is throwing anyone under the bus here. I'm explaining, and I'm happy to explain, what happened. And we relied on the public service and their recommendations. And their recommendation was to proceed. And the question you're asking around, you know, you being frustrated it was a binary choice. That was exactly the kind of question that the prime minister and I were asking on May 8th, which caused it to be pulled from the cabinet agenda that morning so that we could confirm that that was truly the case.

CH: That was the Prime Minister's Chief of Staff Katie Telford responding to a question from Tory MP Michael Barrett today at a finance committee meeting.

[Music: Jazz]

Ontario schools plan

Guest: Sam Hammond

CH: When September rolls around, students in Ontario and Manitoba will be heading back to class, just like their peers across the country. Today, both provinces announced plans for elementary students to return to class, five days a week. Some high school students in both jurisdictions will return on a part-time basis, relying also on online learning. In Ontario, however, the province's plan includes masks for kids in Grade 4 and above, along with more than 300-million dollars in funding for additional staff and safety precautions. Both of which fall short of what was being asked by teachers' unions and local boards. Sam Hammond is the President of the Elementary Teachers' Federation of Ontario. We reached him in Toronto.

SB: Mr. Hammond, today the Ontario government rolled out its plans for September. Is this the plan parents and kids needed to hear?

SAM HAMMOND: Absolutely not. For months, the premier and the minister of education have promised people in this province that they would spare no expense to ensure the safety of people, including kids in this province. And today, they broke that. And a very good example of that is the fact that they have chosen not to decrease class sizes from kindergarten through grade 8, with almost every stakeholder parent group and Sick Kids, in fact, recommending that that's what should happen.

SB: What are you hearing from teachers about how they are feeling about this plan and heading back to the classroom?

SH: Well, for months our members have been anxious and extremely concerned about what reopening of schools would look like. Someone just sent me an email saying that based on this plan, restaurants, grocery stores and gyms in this province have more safety protocols in place than our classrooms will in September. And they're concerned about that still.

SB: What are your biggest concerns right now about safety issues?

SH: Around safety issues, first and foremost, is the minister saying that class sizes will remain the same. We and almost everyone else advocated for reduced class sizes of fifteen or lower. And that should happen because it's not happening. It will be almost impossible for our members and educators to implement social decency in classrooms that are already jam-packed. In terms of if you look at a kindergarten class with 29 four and five-year-olds, a teacher, a DEC and an EA, I'm not sure how they're going to implement even a one-metre social distancing protocol that we completely disagree with. And it should be two metres, and you can't do that effectively unless you have smaller class sizes.

SB: On the issue of what you describe as an impossible scenario of maintaining social distance, given the numbers. Does the fact that the province is requiring the majority of students to wear masks, that the masks are mandated, that that is going to provide enough safety?

SH: No, we don't think so. We think we should be taking a much more cautious approach to this. There are way too many uncertainties. Even the authors of the Sick Kids document that came out yesterday, over a third said that masks for students in kindergarten through grade three, if you could not maintain two metres of social distancing, should be used. And that's our position as well. Certainly, it will reduce the risk throughout the school. But we need to look at classrooms individually as well.

SB: Now, the province is hiring more public health nurses and providing personal protective equipment for teachers and staff. Will that mitigate some of your safety concerns?

SH: Well, frankly, we're pleased that the minister has committed to face coverings for all staff in every school board across the province. That's a step in the right direction. Those 500 nurses will be spread over 34 health units in this province. And we really want to see how closely they'll be interacting with schools in this province. And we think the number of 500 is too few, frankly.

SB: Now, you represent teachers in Ontario, but you were recently named president of the Canadian Teachers’ Federation. What are you hearing from teachers across the country about their concerns?

SH: Absolutely. The same concerns are consistent across the country. They're anxious. They're concerned about their health and safety and that of their students across this country. They want to be in classrooms, but they want it to be as safe as possible. And the plan here in Ontario, really, it's a step in the right direction, but it doesn't do a lot to reassure our members of both their health and safety as we move forward.

SB: What is your sense of how the parents are feeling about these issues?

SH: Well, I can tell you here in Ontario, parent groups across this province have been calling for, one, they've said, yes, we want kids in school five days a week, but we want reduced class sizes. Every stakeholder in the province has said that along with them. And what I'm hearing from parents, for example, one emailed me today and said that he and others absolutely agree with students who are four or five up to grade three wearing a mask. We're gonna have to monitor that and help them with that. But that should be happening. So I think for the vast majority of parents, this plan’s not enough in terms of when they consider the safety and well-being of their children.

SB: Mr. Hammond, do you think this is a done deal or can you negotiate and get better precautions?

SH: I hope what will happen is I know that numerous stakeholders in this province are now saying very much the same thing that I am. And it is incumbent upon this minister and the premier to call those stakeholders together to have in-depth discussions and allow us to provide input onto how this plan can be made better. But the first step in that is this government has to realize that the 300-million dollars that they've put into the plan is not sufficient.

SB: Mr. Hammond, thank you for your time.

SH: Oh, my pleasure. And thank you.

SB: Goodbye.

SH: Bye-bye.

CH: Sam Hammond is President of the Elementary Teachers' Federation of Ontario. We reached him in Toronto.

From Our Archives: Norman the lamb

CH: When Melanie MacLean arrived at her destination after a long journey, she had another challenge: actually finding Norman, in a group of about 700 of his peers. But she found him, in two shakes of his own tail. Ms. MacLean raises and sells lambs for a living in Scotland. She's not sentimental about it. Which is why she was so surprised to find herself feeling serious pangs of regret about selling one in particular, in September of 2019. Norman. And having realized she'd made a mistake, she then had to find out what farm he'd ended up at; drive hours and hours to that farm; and then somehow pick that single baby sheep out of the flock. But in the end, it seemed like Norman had been waiting for her. Carol spoke with Melanie MacLean in October of last year. Here's that interview again, from our archives.

CO: Melanie, what made you so attached to him? I mean you raised a lot of lambs, so what was it about Norman?

MELANIE MACLEAN: I can't put my finger on it, to be honest. But he was a very affectionate lamb. Normally as they get older, they become a bit more independent. You know you can distance yourselves from them. But I don't know what it was Norman? He just he actually enjoyed a cuddle. It just wasn't about food for him. He enjoyed affection. And you know I gave that to him in abundance, which he enjoyed.

CO: And you had a special bond with him because you kept him alive, didn't you when he was born?

MM: Yeah, he wasn't very well at all when he was born. I wasn't sure whether he was gonna make it. But I was with him for 48 hours really round the clock, just to make sure that he had everything he needed. I had him under a heat lamp for a while. And I had to feed him by a stomach tube. I was delighted obviously when he made it through.

CO: And why didn't his mother feed him?

MM: Well, he was one of a set of triplets. And when he was born, he was very weak. He couldn't stand, couldn't support his own head, and she was paying attention to the other two. Sheep only have enough teats actually to feed two lambs. So I just made this decision to remove him from the mother because he wouldn't have made it otherwise.

CO: It's routine for you then to sell them off to those who are going to make them dinner, right?

MM: Yeah. I run a small crofter — myself and my husband — it’s a bit of a hobby for us. We're not a massive farm. So we just we just have 20 sheep, and I know them all individually. And every year, it's the same thing for me. I normally sell about 25 lambs. And I've just got used to doing that. You know, that's just what we do.

CO: When you sold Norman, what went through your mind? What effect did that have on you? Was it the same as all the other lambs?

MM: No, I mean it bothers me selling my other lambs, but I do tend to manage to get over it. With Norman, I had the dilemma before I even went to the auction mart with him whether to take him or not? Because he was on his own, and he hadn't really mixed with the rest of the flock, I wasn't sure really how he would be with other lambs when he goes away? And I was just so attached to him. It wasn't like the rest of my lambs at all. He was more like a dog. That's the only way I can describe it really.

CO: At what point did you realize that you had made a mistake, and that you had to go and find Norman?

MM: I mean, I wasn't very happy on the day, but your head sometimes overrules your heart in these situations. Immediately, I wasn't happy about it. And I was talking to my husband afterwards, and we thought you know after about a week I should be okay. Time went on, and eventually, I just said I'm just not getting over this. I was talking about it every day to him. And eventually, he said, would you just please phone them and find out where he is?

CO: How did you find him?

MM: Well, I normally know who my lambs are sold to through the auction mart. And I managed to get a phone number for the farmer. And I phone phoned him and got his wife on the phone. And I was a little bit embarrassed, if I'm honest because I had willingly sold him. And it just seemed a bit strange phoning them back and saying, can I have my lamb back? [slight chuckle]

CO: [laugh] What did they say to you?

MM: Well, I mean she was so understanding. I was really surprised actually. You know, she said I fully understand exactly what you're saying. I’ve had lambs myself in the past, and it is a struggle. Don't worry about it. The only thing is he's in a field of 700 lambs on a 75-acre field, which is a bit like a needle in a haystack. But she says you're very welcome to come and find him.

CO: And how far away was he?

MM: Well, it's probably about 550 miles, 540 miles, which to me is a seven hours’ journey to get there. So it's a two-hour boat ride, then another five hours’ driving. When I got there, they welcomed me with open arms, to be honest. I was very grateful, and they showed me where the field was. It was an awful day, raining. I stood looking at this field, and my heart just sank because I thought I'm gonna be here for hours, you know? I'll be lucky if I find him. So we drove into the field, and there was all these little lambs lying around, and none of them looked like my Norman. But I noticed there was a little Suffolk lamb lying by itself with a little tag — one that I tend to use. I thought, oh, I'll just try this one. So I asked the farmer to stop, and he was about 20 metres away lying down. And I just sort of stepped out the passenger side of the car. And he just leapt to his feet. I have a pink hat on that I wear on the croft every day when I was feeding him and keeping him company, so he probably would have recognized the hat. So he came running to me like a bullet. And I just couldn't believe it. And I just crouched down and I gave him a big hug. And oh, I was crying, and I was totally overwhelmed and very surprised that we managed to get him so quickly.

CO: How did how did the other family react when he saw this reunion?

MM: He used the word himself he was astonished. He actually said to me that's astonishing, lass. If you ever write your memoirs, you'll have to put that in because that is simply astonishing. I can't believe he's come to you. Yeah, I was absolutely delighted, and very, very overwhelmed by the whole thing, very emotional.

CO: What is it do you think that made Norman so special? What was the bond that you had? Because you've obviously raised a lot of animals that turned into food, and so what is it about this one, do you think?

MM: He was just very affectionate. He wasn't simply food-motivated. He actually generally loved my company, and I loved his company. You know, I sometimes used to sit in his field, and he'd come and just lay down beside me. And I'd just be stroking his head. And some lambs just don’t like that. They do distance themselves eventually from you, and they become more independent. But he just didn't. We’d come out of the house, and he was in a little field near the house. And if he heard the door opening, you'd just see his little head up near this gate, just waiting for us to go over and say hello. Even when we finish bottle feeding him, he was doing that all the time. So he loved us, and I think we certainly loved him.

CO: And so how's Norman been since he got home?

MM: Oh, he's been great. He's been getting a lot of attention, as you can imagine. And so yeah, no, he's settled back in straightaway. He's behaving like a little spoilt lamb as he normally does [CO laughs]. It's all good. You know, you learn lessons in life. And I just wouldn't let my head rule my heart from now on. I think the selling of the lambs, and my calves, has always been a struggle for me. And I don't want that to change, you know? Because I would never get complacent about them. You know on this occasion, it was the right thing for me, and probably would have travelled to the ends of the earth to go and get him. Once you make that decision, you just have to go with it. So yeah, a happy ending for Norman, and a happy ending for me.

CO: What a great story. Melanie, thank you so much.

MM: You're very welcome. Thanks for the interest [laughs].

CO: Goodnight.

MM: Thanks now. Bye-bye.

CH: From our archives, Carol speaking with Melanie MacLean of Benbecula, Scotland, in October, 2019.

Part two: John Lewis funeral, Florida nursing home worker, Whale researcher

John Lewis funeral

CH: In 2020, we're used to thinking of John Lewis as an old man. A wise man. A seasoned lawmaker. But in his eulogy for the late Congressman today, former U.S. President Barack Obama reminded mourners that so much of what John Lewis did, he did as an astonishingly young person. Just a teenager when he first heard Dr. Martin Luther King preach. A college student when he spearheaded the Nashville sit-ins of the '60s — and the first of the Freedom Rides. And only 25 years old when he was asked to lead the civil rights march from Selma to Montgomery, Alabama. In his forty minutes at the podium today, at John Lewis's funeral, Barack Obama celebrated those early achievements at length. And he also pointed out that John Lewis was a man who never stopped striving for better. And that Americans shouldn't either.

BARACK OBAMA: He always saw the best in us. And he never gave up. And never stopped speaking out because he saw the best in us. He believed in us even when we didn't believe in ourselves. And as a congressman, he didn't rest. He kept getting himself arrested. As an old man, he didn't sit out any fight. Sat in all night long on the floor of the United States Capitol. I know his staff was stressed. [audience laughs] But the testing of his faith produced perseverance. [audience chimes in agreement. He knew that the march is not over. That the race is not yet one. That we have not yet reached that blessed destination where we are judged by the content of our character. He knew from his own life that progress is fragile. That we have to be vigilant against the darker currents of this country's history. Of our own history. Were there are whirlpools of violence and hatred and despair. They can always rise again. Bull Connor may be gone. But today, we witness with our own eyes police officers kneeling on the necks of black Americans. George Wallace may be gone. But we can witness our federal government sending agents to use tear gas and batons against peaceful demonstrators. [lots of applause] We may no longer have to guess the number of jellybeans in a jar in order to cast a ballot. But even as we sit here, there are those in power who are doing their darndest to discourage people from voting [applause] by closing polling locations and targeting minorities and students with restrictive I.D. laws and attacking our voting [raising voice] rights with surgical precision, even undermining the postal service in the run up to an election that's going to be dependent on mail-in ballots so people don't get sick.

CH: Part of Barack Obama's eulogy for U.S. Congressman John Lewis — delivered earlier today. One of his most political speeches in recent memory. And one worth hearing in its entirety. Also worth taking in are some of the Congressman's own final words — from an essay written shortly before his death and published today in the New York Times. In it, Mr. Lewis writes, quote: "Though I may not be here with you, I urge you to answer the highest calling of your heart, and stand up for what you truly believe. In my life I have done all I can to demonstrate that the way of peace, the way of love and nonviolence is the more excellent way. Now it is your turn to let freedom ring." Unquote. John Lewis died earlier this month in Atlanta, Georgia. He was 80 years old.

[Music: Ukulele]

Florida nursing home worker

Guest: Mary Daniel

CH: For months, COVID-19 kept Mary Daniel separated from her husband, after his Florida nursing home banned visitors. Before the pandemic, Ms. Daniel would visit daily, cherishing the time with her husband Steve, who has early-onset Alzheimer's. And so, when the facility closed its doors, she employed various tactics to try to visit him. In the end, however, it was being employed by the facility that got her in the door. Earlier this month, Ms. Daniel began work as a part-time dishwasher at the home. We reached Mary Daniel in Jacksonville, Florida.

SB: Ms. Daniel, we've caught you just before you begin your shift. How's the new gig going?

MARY DANIEL: It's going very well. I'm due in there in about 30 minutes, and I'll be watching the dinner dishes tonight.

SB: Take us back to March, when the home stopped allowing visitors. How worried were you about not being able to visit your husband, Steve?

MD: I was extremely worried. I visited him every single day. I went in after work and ate dinner with him. We went to his room. I got him ready for bed, changed into shorts and a t-shirt and we would lie in bed every single night and watch television until he drifted off. He does not have the ability to understand the virus or why I'm not there. So I was extremely worried about him being confused, being lonely and really, really concerned that it would lead to a decline in his physical and mental state.

SB: And when you realized that this pandemic wasn't going to be over in a couple of weeks, what did you do?

MD: I immediately reached out to the facility itself and said, OK, what's the answer here? I've got to do something, I've got to get to him. There has to be a way. Can I volunteer? Can I get a job? I mean, I'm just throwing everything at them. And they say, let's just sit tight. You know, this isn't going to last long. We don't know what to expect. Let's give it a little bit more time. So I tried to be patient. And as time went on, as days turned to weeks and weeks turned to months, I started to get a little bit more vocal about coming up with some alternatives because this was not working for Steve or for the other residents in his facility.

SB: What about video calls or waving through windows? Were you able to do any of that?

MD: We tried both of those, and we would do Face Time. But he talks quite a bit, but is not able to articulate anything. So you can't understand what he's saying. So having a phone conversation or a video call was just confusing to him. We did two window visits, but he cried the entire time. So I made up my mind that I was just not going to do that anymore. It was an incredibly difficult decision to make as a wife that I would rather my husband not see me or me see him because it's just too painful and he just cannot understand what the world's going on here.

SB: And so how did you feel when you finally got this call from the nursing home offering you the dishwashing job?

MD: [warm chuckling] I couldn't believe it when they called completely out of the blue. They had seen the story on the news with me trying to get to the governor, trying to come up with a solution. And they said we have a solution. We have a part-time job if you're interested. And I said I am. And they said it's a dishwasher. And I said I'll take it. Dishwashing it is. I do it two days a week. I go in for the dinner dishes. So I’ll work, like tonight, I work a couple hours, and then I get to go spend a couple of hours with him.

SB: What was that first visit like after that first shift? Washing dishes. When you finally got to see Steve for the first time, what was that moment like?

MD: I was so worried that he wasn't going to remember me that he wouldn't recognize me. And when I opened up his door to his room, and he had his back to me, and he turned around, he did not know that I was in the building. I don't tell him that I'm there because he does not understand that I'm washing dishes. So when he turned around and saw me, the first thing he said was Mary. And I knew that I had gotten back to him in time. So we hugged a huge hug, we both cried and then we settled into our routine in his room, getting ready for bed and settling in and watching a little TV together.

SB: Obviously, the homes are doing this to protect the people who live there. They're not trying to really keep families away. How worried are you about COVID and his safety?

MD: Of course, it's a concern and I absolutely understand that this is being done with the best of intentions. The problem is is that we are isolating these people to save them. But the isolation is going to kill them, too. They are dying by themselves. And I think that's incredibly cruel. I promised Steve seven years ago, when he was diagnosed at the age of 59, that I would be by his side for the rest of his life. That I would walk this walk with him and I would hold his hand every step of the way. And I didn't do that for 114 days. And I was terrified that when I did get back to him, it would be too late for him to know me and to know my love. And so I am working very, very hard to come up with a compromise because there are ways for us to get to them safely. I mean, that's why I just took a COVID test literally five minutes ago. I'm sitting in the parking lot of my brother-in-law's medical practice to get the rapid test results before I go to work today. I do not want to bring it into his facility. That would be absolutely devastating. But there's ways that we can do this with outdoor visits, with clean room visits. There's a program called Essential Caregiver Designation that's working in two states right now. There's got to be a better way because this is going to cause immense collateral damage. The truth is the virus is getting in. It's because people are having to come in. So we know it's not working 100 per cent. So if we can go about other ways just to get to them and get that presence to them. Dementia patients need love and they need touch. They need the presence of other people or their brain just dies much quicker than it normally would. So we're just pushing for there has to be a better way.

SB: So you're about to head in to wash the dishes and then you'll be able to see Steve. Given those 114 days that you couldn't see him, how much does this time mean to the both of you?

MD: It's absolutely precious. He has really settled in and gotten used to me coming back. I'm only there two days a week, but it's enough to let him know that I'm there and that I will be back. So it's just absolutely precious for me to be able to touch him, to comfort him, to lay down beside him, he puts his head on my shoulder. And seeing him relax and settle in with me is the best reward. I'm not washing dishes for the money. I'm washing dishes for that.

SB: Well, enjoy your visit. And thank you for telling us about it.

MD: Thank you so much.

SB: Goodbye.

MD: Bye-bye.

CH: Mary Daniel is now a part-time dishwasher at her husband Steve's nursing home, a job she took so she could visit him. We reached Ms. Daniel in Jacksonville, Florida.

[Music: Carnival music]

Whale researcher

Guest: Christine Gabriele

CH: Every year around this time, humpback whales migrate from Hawaii to the cold waters of Alaska. But this year, something unheard of happened when they reached their destination. They could hear themselves. Because of COVID-19 travel restrictions, there are hardly any tourists. So the waters are quiet. The horns and hums of motorized boats have left the soundscape, which is important because whales experience the world through sound. And for years, they've made their long migration through the constant background noise of boats. Christine Gabriel has been monitoring the whales for the last 30 years at Glacier Bay National Park. She feels this summer has been something special. We reached Ms. Gabriel in Glacier Bay.

SB: Christine, what are you finding out there on the waters since the pandemic and the shutdown?

CHRISTINE GABRIELE: Well, fortunately, we've been able to continue our long-term study of humpback whales because we just go out solo on a small boat. And what we do is identify individual whales. And basically, we use that information to capture long-term histories of individuals. We count the number of different animals. And we also are monitoring the reproductive rate. And actually on my first survey out on the water, I was very grateful to be out there because the rest of the world has been so abnormal during the pandemic that it was kind of a little taste of normal [chuckling] out there in nature. And my first day was remarkable, actually, because I saw three mother calf pairs right off the bat. And that was really unusual for an early season survey. And I'm really glad to say that as the summer has continued, we've actually seen 16 mother calf pairs so far this year, which is a huge improvement over recent years.

SB: So what does that tell you?

CG: Well, our population had gone through some really rough times with the Northeast Pacific marine heatwave that struck basically most of the North Pacific in 2013 through 2016. And that had a really negative effect on a lot of marine life, including seabirds, as well as marine mammals and humpback whales. And in those years, we're actually seeing we had one year with no calves, one calf, two calves over the years are average, had been nine calves per year. And so it's really reassuring to see that number come back up this year. I think what it means is that the feeding conditions have improved and that's a really good thing.

SB: What about the noise levels? How much quieter is it out there?

CG: So as soon as it became clear that the Alaska tourism season was going to be much reduced because of the pandemic, I made it my goal to make sure that we would be able to listen underwater and document what that change is. And also made plans to collaborate with others to study what difference that would make to whale communication patterns.

SB: And what have you found?

CG: Well, previously, what we had found about whale communication is that kind of like you and I, if we were standing by a roadside trying to have a conversation, when there's noise in the background, the whales do a couple of things. One is that they would vocalize louder. Sometimes they might repeat themselves, they might shift frequencies so that they could avoid the noise. But they're basically pretty adept at adapting to a noisy environment. So what we are wondering about this year when it's so quiet is whether that pattern will change, whether those bouts of communication that they have with one another are longer or more complex or different in some fundamental way. This quiet year has given us a really unique opportunity to study undisturbed natural whale communication.

SB: Yeah, undisturbed makes me think it must be so stressful for those animals. We hear about that all the time that it's so stressful to have this noise and this interference in their communication, in their daily lives.

CG: There are researchers who are going to be studying the stress hormone levels in this quiet year and compared to other times. And that'll be really interesting to see what those results are. Yeah, I think in the quiet, the whales are actually able to take up more physical space as well as acoustic space. So if these animals are using sound to communicate with others, they're used to their sounds being able to travel a certain distance. But when there's so much background noise that really shrinks their world to a much smaller space over which they can communicate with others or listen passively for things like predators or other things like that.

SB: What kind of an effect will this have on whales, do you think — them having a quieter environment and being able to use more space, as you say?

CG: Yeah, I think it will be really beneficial for them to have this quiet summer, particularly because we have so many mother calf pairs this year. I think the females are able, in fact, I've seen it, [laughing] the females are able to kind of leave their calf off by itself for a while. The mother can go off and feed undisturbed by the calf as well as by other vessels [chuckling]. And just kind of get back into good physical condition. So I think it's just more relaxing, less stressful for them. The feeding conditions, however, are really the most important thing that's going to contribute to the population health.

SB: What does this kind of work that you're able to do at this time, what kind of an opportunity does it provide for your research?

CG: Well, it's really a once in a lifetime opportunity to to study natural whale communication in an undisturbed state. The hope is that what we can learn about whale communication in this quiet time will help us develop ways to protect whales into the future. I mean, studying the underwater sound environment is important because it helps us see the world the way the whales do. But once we do that, the better we can understand what their needs are, the more we can develop ways to protect that underwater sound environment.

SB: This is your 30th summer monitoring the whales.

CG: Yeah, sure is.

SB: How is it for you this year? You talk about it being a once in a lifetime experience. Tell me what that's like personally?

CG: Well, many days, when I go out on the water, I actually don't see any other vessels or just very few. And that's a really different experience. I did just come off of a ten-day kayak trip in Glacier Bay, just for a vacation. On a lot of the days, we saw no other human beings at all. And on some of the islands we camped on on our way down the bay, there would be whales very close to shore, and just hour after hour feeding and, you know, resting and socializing and breaching. It was really quite fantastic, especially being there as a silent observer, you know.

SB: And that's spoken as someone who's been studying these creatures for 30 years.

CG: Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's definitely going to be beneficial for the whales to have some quiet.

SB: What do you hope comes out of this?

CG: What I hope is that the research that we do to understand whale communication patterns better will be able to contribute to ways that we can conserve that underwater sound environment and accommodate the human presence in that environment. Over the long term, humans and whales are going to be coexisting on the oceans indefinitely in the future. So we need all the tools we can get to really make that relationship work over the long term.

SB: Well, we wish you all the luck in the world with that research. Thanks for telling us about it.

CG: All right. Thank you for having me.

SB: Goodbye.

CG: Bye [chuckle].

CH: Christine Gabriele is a wildlife biologist at Glacier Bay National Park in Alaska. That's where we reached her.

[Music: Bright piano]

Rina Sawayama

CH: Just about everyone seems to agree that Rina Sawayama made one of the UK's best albums of the past year. The BBC raved that its "wild collision of pop, opera, house music and hair metal" manages to spin the artist's insights about racism, alienation, and internalised shame into pop gold — calling it both 'beautiful' and "colossally catchy". Elton John also really, really liked it. Rina Sawayama was born in Japan, then moved to England as a young child. She's lived there ever since. But according to the rules of the UK's biggest music awards, she's not British enough. She recently found out she's ineligible for The Mercury Prize and the Brit Awards because she doesn't have British citizenship — having retained her Japanese passport. The fact that she lives and works in the UK, grew up there, and has permanent residency doesn't count. Now, if she were in a band, the math would be different. Only 30 percent of the members of a band have to be officially British or Irish to qualify. Those calculations ring particularly hollow when it comes to Ms. Sawayama. Her album is all about the sometimes painful process of coming to own her identity as a Japanese-British, pansexual woman. Rina Sawayama says she was heartbroken when she heard the news. Adding, "I rarely get upset to the level where I cry. And I cried." Which seems fully justified — because this whole regulation situation is a crying shame.

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July 30, 2020 Episode Transcript

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