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The Current Transcript for July 27, 2020

Host: Mark Kelley

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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VOICE: Today we stand as men from 25 nations on six continents. Today we are one.

MARK KELLEY: Opening day from Major League Baseball looked a lot different this year and COVID-19 was not the only reason why. Players from teams around the league took a knee in solidarity with Black Lives Matter protests. Coming up, a movement for a moment for professional sports. Then.

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VOICE 1: Can you see me?

VOICE 2: Yeah. Can you see me?

VOICE 1: Yeah I can see you. I’m here waving my hand.

VOICE 2: So are you coming up?

VOICE: I can’t get in right now because of this virus.

MK: That’s the only way Wayne Moriarty could speak with his dad for months, Standing underneath the window of his father’s long-term care home. But now that restrictions are lifting, we’ll tag along to hear their touching reunion. That’s coming up in half an hour. But we begin with an explosive new book from Donald Trump’s niece. Good morning. I'm Mark Kelley, moonlighting for Matt Galloway for the next couple of weeks, and this is The Current.

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'Unstable and easily manipulated:' U.S. president's upbringing shaped his leadership, says niece Mary Trump

Guests: Mary Trump

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VOICE 1: She was not exactly a family favourite. We didn't have a lot of respect or like for her. I would have never said that, except she writes a book that's so stupid and so vicious and it's a lie. My father was a great, wonderful man.

VOICE 2: Let me just ask you this question.

VOICE 1: This is not a person that I spent very much time with. Very little time. And now I'm glad.

MK: The person Donald Trump is speaking about there is his niece, Mary Trump, and she's my guest now. She's just written a revealing new memoir called, Too Much and Never Enough: How My Family Created the World's Most Dangerous Man. Mary, welcome.

MARY TRUMP: Thank you so much for having me.

MK: Stupid, vicious and a lie. I'm wondering, Mary, are you going to put or print that review on the dust cover of the next edition of your book?

MARY TRUMP: Yeah, I think it should definitely be on the paperback. For sure.

MK: Well, you're a clinical psychologist, Mary. So what does that visceral reaction to your book reveal about your Uncle Donald?

MARY TRUMP: Well, it shows that he's extremely defensive. And, you know, as I think everybody has seen in the last few years, he's a master of projection. You know, he's always accusing other people of having qualities he has or having done things he's done. So you know, I can't even take it personally. And, you know, the bottom line, too, is if he didn't spend time with me when I was a kid, particularly after my dad died when I was 16, that says a lot more about him as a human being and as an uncle than it says about me.

MK: And I want to tap into some of your early, early memories, but as you mentioned, he's in your title of your book, "The World's Most Dangerous Man." In your opinion, what makes him so dangerous?

MARY TRUMP: Well, it's an entire section of two things. If he did not have the position he has now, if he weren't in the Oval Office, he wouldn't be dangerous, except perhaps of the people around him. Right? So it's not because he is inherently dangerous. He is incompetent and in a position that he is incapable of holding. He doesn't have the intellectual curiosity or the knowledge base to do the job properly. He's also fairly unstable and easily manipulated. So if you combine that with the fact that he has the power that goes along with his office and, you know, the idea to destroy alliances, to rip up treaties and, you know, to be in control of a an enormous nuclear arsenal that makes him very dangerous.

MK: Well, let's talk about growing up. What memories of your uncle do you have? Are there are there any moments of humanity, humility or kindness?

MARY TRUMP: Yeah. You know, when I was really young and we spent a lot of time at my grandparent's house, you know, there was a sameness to the the visits, which I think is probably the case for most families. You know, we went in the backyard and we played ball and we ran around the house. But outside of that, I didn't really spend huge amounts of time with him when we weren't in my grandparents house. But, you know, as I got older, one thing that stands out and this was probably I think I was in college and it was a few years before he hired me to write his second book, which again, I'm not entirely sure he would have done if he really thought I was a stupid, vile human being. But I was at Tufts University in Boston and some friends of mine had driven down to spend the day in the city and I parked illegally. And when we went to get the car, it was gone. So, you know, we were near Central Park, so we just went up to his office in Trump Tower. I explained the situation and he said, don't worry about it, honeybunch and he pulled out his wallet and he handed me a couple of bills and that was it. You know and it was a very simple gesture, but it was you know, he didn't, he wasn't mad at me. He didn't tell me I was an idiot or anything. And he just took care of it. And it was really, it was really sweet.

MK: But from the book, it seems like those moments were few and far between.

MARY TRUMP: There were few and far between and they weren't ever much more than that.

MK: Right. You mentioned your grandparents' house. Let's talk about that. Your father was Donald Trump's brother, Freddy Trump. He was the eldest. Tell me about the family that the household that they grew up in together.

MARY TRUMP: Yeah. The house was. You know, when I when I was in it, it was a pretty cool place. You know, there wasn't a lot of warmth or affection. But when my dad and Donald were growing up, you know, it was much more regimented. And because my grandfather, of course, was much more interested in how his oldest son and namesake grew up.

MK: He was supposed to be the heir, wasn't he?

MARY TRUMP: He he was supposed to take over my grandfather's empire. And the fact that Donald was seven and a half years younger, allowed Donald to learn from, you know, what he undoubtedly perceived to be my dad's mistakes, because my grandfather as as a sociopath was only really interested in other people to the extent that he could make use of them. And when he discovered, you know, I don't know precisely when this happened, but I assume, you know, as my dad became a teenager, when my grandfather realized that my dad was not going to be the killer and the tough guy that he required him to be, he treated him very harshly. He had these unrealistic expectations and basically, since he couldn't change my father characterlogically, he systematically dismantled him, essentially. And Donald saw that, you know, with the benefit of being so much younger. And he learnt very early on not to be like Freddy and what that meant was, don't be kind. Don't be generous. Don't have interests outside of, you know, the family business. Don't be sensitive. And you need to be willing to cheat and steal or whatever else it takes to be a winner, because according to my grandfather, life was a zero sum game. There can only be.

MK: Yeah. His credo was, as you write your book, there's only one winner and everyone else is a loser, which certainly sounds like something that Donald Trump himself would say.

MARY TRUMP: That's right. Yeah, he still lives by that rule.

MK: Right. You mentioned in passing, you said you saw my grandfather, who was a sociopath, I mean, that's a big statement just to be saying it. And you just sort of throw it out there.

MARY TRUMP: Yeah I'm sorry. That was a little offhanded of me. I didn't, I should've provided more context.

MK: But why do you say that?

MARY TRUMP: My grandfather was somebody who had no real human feeling. He never laughed in a real deep way. He didn't really have a sense of humour. I'm not suggesting he wasn't grim like he was. If you met him, you would think, you know, he's cheerful and he had every reason to be. You know, he was completely in control of his universe. He had all the money in the world and everything always went his way. But he didn't really care about people. He had no empathy. If you can evaluate somebody kind of retroactively, if you look at all of his children, all of these children are deeply, deeply damaged people in one way or another. It's one thing if you're one of your kids. But when all five of them are, then then that's something that needs to be looked at very seriously.

MK: And certainly that comes out in your book as well. You mentioned something. It was a family incident between your father and Donald and a plate of mashed potatoes, which ends up becoming Trump family lore. Tell us about what happened and why this is so significant.

MARY TRUMP: When Donald was around seven, he was before, you know, my grandmother was getting dinner ready and starting to put dinner on the table. He was tormenting my uncle Robert, who was about a year and a half younger. And that was one of Donald's favourite things to do. You know, he couldn't really get under the skin of his older siblings who are significantly older, but he could certainly make Rob's life miserable. So he was just teasing him relentlessly and none of the older kids could get him to stop. My grandmother could never get him to stop. And, you know, Rob was just hysterical and miserable. And finally, the only way my dad could see to put an end to it was to take a bowl of mashed potatoes that had been set out on the table and dump it on his head. And it it made him stop in the moment. The problem though, is that it created such a deep feeling of humiliation.

MK: What was the reaction after that ball of potatoes was dumped on Donald's head?

MARY TRUMP: All of his siblings just laughed at him. And they didn't stop laughing at him. And I think that enraged him to such a degree, in part because, you know, it's humiliation isn't, it's an awful feeling. And he didn't have the tools that would have made him step out of it and just think it was funny. Right? He couldn't do that. And he had seen my grandfather wield the weapon of humiliation against my dad. So it felt dangerous, I imagine, for him to feel that way. And he's never gotten over it. To this day, you know, when that story's told, he crosses his arms and he just scowls. He can't even now, almost six decades later, no, over six decades later, see the humour in it.

MK: But what you're describing there is reminds me so much of that press gallery dinner where then then President Barack Obama taunting Donald, making fun of Donald. And he sat there with his arms crossed, fuming.

MARY TRUMP: That's right. Yeah, and I.

MK: And that same, that feeling of humiliation that you speak to with the mashed potato seems to be something that's still there. That skin seems to be very thin.

MARY TRUMP: It is, yeah. His ego, as I write, is a very fragile thing. And it doesn't really provide an adequate barrier between his insecurities and the real world. And it just feels dangerous to him whenever, you know, the ideas about himself that he's created are threatened in any way. And it's a dangerous thing to humiliate him. And I wish that that never happened with Barack Obama. I mean, I'm not saying that there's a direct line from that to Donald's decision to enter the campaign, but I think it definitely made Donald want to enact some kind of revenge.

MK: Mary, I want to ask you about your motivation for writing the book, because as I read it, there were moments where I felt uncomfortable. And, you know, this was a family business and everyone is familiar with dysfunctional families, but at certain points, I said, okay, why is your family business our business?

MARY TRUMP: It's a great question and I completely understand why people would be skeptical coming into this. First of all, nobody even knew I existed. So there's that. But I don't actually think it's a story that belongs exclusively to my family because, you know, the truth of the matter is a lot of what they don't want people to know are horrible acts they've committed. So why protect somebody from that? Right? But more to the point, any one of Donald siblings could have put a stop to the campaign. It's neither my place nor my responsibility that that didn't happen. And they essentially, by opting out and not saying anything and allowing it to continue, knowing what they knew about secrets they wanted kept, they made it everybody's business to know how Donald specifically, but this family in general operated and operates.

MK: Your father's story did not end well.

MARY TRUMP: No.

MK: An alcoholic, died at a young age. Is this book in any way an attempt for you to settle some scores?

MARY TRUMP: No, it is not. Insofar as my my dad is concerned, I definitely saw it as a chance to right the wrong of how he's been misrepresented throughout the years. You know, when when Donald in the past has spoken of my father, he basically only talks about his alcoholism. Nobody knew or very few people knew until this book came out that my father was actually quite accomplished person. He was a professional pilot for the second largest carrier in the world at the dawn of the jet age, a man who had gotten his private and professional licences on his own while he was in college. That was an extraordinary thing to do. He also served his country. He was a second lieutenant in the Air National Guard in the 60s. And that's never mentioned. So part of it was just to restore my dad's legacy in terms of the other, the revenge that I'm cashing in. You know, if I had been interested in doing either one of those things, I would have written this book 10 years ago when Donald was still a very public figure, an internationally known person. You know, it would have generated interest, I imagine, and it would have been a lot safer for me. You know, as you are probably aware, whistleblowers have not fared well in this administration. So what, you know, why put myself at such risk?

MK: But why now then, Mary? Because it's a good point. You could have written this a long time ago. Why now? Is this just releasing this book now, is this a political gesture?

MARY TRUMP: Well, first of all, I had no control over when this book was released. I started writing it two years ago and publishing it is between the nature of the industry and the pandemic, you know, itgot very complicated. So that wasn't even up to me at all. Once I finished writing it, it was out of my hands. But I did feel, knowing what I know, I felt an obligation to give people information so they could make a better decision in November. And the reason I couldn't do that before the last election was because I didn't have anything concrete. Once the reporters of The New York Times came to me and said, well, Suzanne Craig, a Canadian, a proud, proud Canadian.

MK: Indeed.

MARY TRUMP: And brilliant investigative journalist, when she knocked on my door, I mean, I rebuffed her. But over the next few weeks, she made it clear to me that I had in my possession documents that could help, as she said, "rewrite the financial history of Donald and my family." So I finally felt like I had something tangible that I could present to the world as opposed to just, you know, my opinion or my bitterness.

MK: But so much has been released and displayed in the public about your uncle Donald Trump. And I just checked before this interview. He still has a 40 percent approval rating. November is a long way off. What if Donald Trump wins a second mandate? What do you think's at stake?

MARY TRUMP: I try very, very hard not to think that far ahead. Yeah, so all I can, I think the simplest way to put it is that if that were to happen, it would be the end of the American experiment.

MK: Wow. That's a bold statement.

MARY TRUMP: Well, you know, if we look at what's happened in the last three and a half years, I don't think it's a hyperbolic one. I think there's plenty to back it up. And I'm not just saying it's because of Donald. I think, to be honest, in some ways, he's the least of our problems. It's the people who enable him. It's the people who allow him to get away with his egregious behaviour, so that they can, you know, get their agendas filled or get their judges on a particular court. They're willing to just watch American institutions disintegrate before our eyes and it's those people we need to worry about.

MK: Well, that's if he wins. But you know your uncle better than most. How do you think he would react if he loses?

MARY TRUMP: You know, again, there's no way for me to know that. I can only speculate, but I think it depends in large part on two things. The size of the margin of Joe Biden victory and the behaviour of the people in his inner circle. Those two things combined are going to determine how he proceeds after the election.

MK: But there are some concerns that if it were to be a tight margin of defeat in his case, that he would refuse to leave office. Do you think that your, that's something that your uncle is capable of?

MARY TRUMP: Well, I think certainly that's why there needs to be a landslide, you know? Because that will simplify matters. And again, I have to say that it really does depend in large part on the people around him who have his ear because as somebody who can't handle humiliation, it might, if left to his own devices, it might just be simpler to spin it as a huge mistake the American people made and we don't deserve him. So he's going to go start some other endeavour. But I hope we don't have to find out. I hope it's a clean transition and that we all come out OK on the other side of this.

MK: Well, I can guarantee you one thing, Mary. On that November night, the world will be watching. And that is not hyperbole either.

MARY TRUMP: Right. Yeah, I may be under my count, but you know.

MK: Hang in there. Mary, great talking to you. Thank you so much.

MARY TRUMP: Thank you. I really appreciate it.

MK: Mary Trump is the niece of Donald Trump, the President of the United States. Her new memoir is called, "Too Much and Never Enough: How My Family Created the World's Most Dangerous Man." Now the book is breaking sales records. More than 1.3 million copies sold in its first week out. Now get this, it has reportedly already outsold Donald Trump's first book, The Art of the Deal.

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After four months, visit with 92-year-old dad in B.C. care home leaves son 'overjoyed'

Guests: Wayne Moriarty

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VOICE 1: Hi. Can you see me?

VOICE 2: Yeah. Can you see me?

VOICE 1: Yeah, I can see you. I'm here waving my hand. Look over here. Right down. Look straight down. Hi.

VOICE 2: Hi.

VOICE 1: How are you?

VOICE 2: So are you coming up?

VOICE 1: I can't get in right now because of this virus.

VOICE 2: Yeah.

MK: For four months since the beginning of the pandemic, Wayne Moriarty could only visit his father from a distance. His dad, Paul, is 92-years-old. He lives in a long-term care home in Vancouver. So visits went like just what we just heard, Wayne yelling from the sidewalk, his father at an upstairs window. You may have heard Wayne on The Current earlier this month telling us how difficult it's been for the both of them. But British Columbia has changed the rules and now some visits with precautions are allowed to long term care homes. Last week, Wayne was able to go for his first visit. And Wayne joins us this morning. How are you doing, Wayne?

WAYNE MORIARTY: Hello Mark. I'm doing very well, thank you.

MK: I bet. And tell us about that first visit, getting close to your dad after so many months. How'd it go for you?

WAYNE MORIARTY: The first visit was, it's very emotional. Very emotional. Probably more emotional for me than it was for him. He has dementia and, you know, he probably thinks he sees me every day. But when I saw him coming down with a couple of angels on his wing helping him walk toward me, I lost it. I was so moved when I saw him.

MK: Why was it just so, so different this time, Wayne? I mean, you have been, I know you've been hollering at your dad from the sidewalk. Well, but tell us about that difference now, just getting close to your dad.

WAYNE MORIARTY: Well the setup, whereby it was still safe, we were quite literally three, four, five feet apart, at different ends of the table with a big plastic shield between us. Unable to walk around. So there was no way of touching each other, but we were close enough that I felt him. You know, we were able to to put our hands together on the glass shield or the plastic shield. It was, it kind of felt like a prison visit in some ways, but it was really, it was a lovely thing and he looked so good. I was so relieved to see him have a mobile he was and how lucid he still was. And he really has not appeared to have lost all that much in terms of his mobility and in terms of his infirmity over the course of the four months. That was such a relief.

MK: Oh, I bet. And what I loved about, of course, your reunion is that you recorded the moment, so that we could all share it. It started with your dad walking, using his walker over the table where you were waiting. So let's listen to that moment.

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VOICE 1: Hi.

VOICE 2: Yeah. No rush. No rush. No running.

VOICE 1: Oh, my God. Oh dad. Oh, hi, Dad.

VOICE 2: Be careful.

VOICE 3: I heard my son say hi dad. He's there.

VOICE 2: Right there.

VOICE 1: Can you see me? You can't see me. That's okay. I'm right here. Here have a seat. OK.

VOICE 3: OK.

MK: I love the moment and I was watching it because of course, it's not just audio, but video and your dad who thrusts his hand out to shake your hand, and I thought it was just a beautiful moment. Of course, there was the barrier between the two of you, so you couldn't do it, but it was a beautiful moment of reunion, Wayne. Just to be so close to your dad again, I could really feel it.

WAYNE MORIARTY: Thank you. And it was, yeah, even just touching him to that little bit of plastic made a world of difference to me.

MK: And I also love the fact that your dad was wearing a Montreal Canadiens hat. I'm a Habs fan myself, so I'm now loving your dad a little bit more.

WAYNE MORIARTY: My dad's become something of a Facebook celebrity because I've done a lot of posting of our moments together, our singing together and he's always wearing that hat. So all the Habs fans, it's the first thing they point out.

MK: Well, let's hear a little more, Wayne, because it really is great. And at this point, your dad, he's reached the table. You're sitting on the either side of that plastic barrier. Let's listen in.

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VOICE 1: I can't do that. We couldn't just touch like the, hit the window, hit the glass. There we go.

VOICE 2: Give a hit. hit.

VOICE 1: Hit to go. There we go.

VOICE 3: There's a window.

VOICE 1: Have a seat. Yeah. There's a window there.

VOICE 2: Sit down Paul.

VOICE 1: We have to stay safe.

VOICE 3: Am I under arrest?

VOICE 3: Come and get me and we'll run away somewhere.

VOICE 1: How are you? Oh are you under arrest. Oh my God. You're hilarious.

MK: And he hasn't lost his sense of humour. That's for sure, Wayne. Did you have any concerns? I'm wondering, just you know, we want to get close to our loved ones. Did you have any concern about putting him at risk in any way?

WAYNE MORIARTY: Oh, I've had huge concerns. Hence, why I've been very understanding, sympathetic and compliant with regard to regulations. We all you know, we know what it's done in care homes across the country and I am still, I remain fully prepared that we may not or I may not be able to go for a walk with him. I may not be able to physically touch him and hug him again until there's a vaccine. I'm prepared for that. I'm prepared to accept this small blessing, this penny from heaven, that I can actually be this close to him. So, yeah, I'm not, I'm going to be quite compliant with regard to whatever the health authorities tell me to do and tell us all to do. And I'm happy to see that they have been so accommodating in so many ways to minimize the effect on families. And it's been a kind of beautiful thing.

MK: Oh, absolutely. And I was lucky enough two weeks ago, I went to Montreal to visit my aunt to celebrate her 99th birthday with her.

WAYNE MORIARTY: Wow.

MK: And it was an amazing moment. But I was curious to know, for her, you know, how she's been coping and she hasn't lost her sense of humour. She says four months, sitting alone in my room, eating off paper plates, she was like, oh, the indignity of it all. But, you know, and she was kidding, but I was also worried that for some of the activities, the social interactions, all these things are so important to our loved ones had been taken away. And so I wondered about your dad, how he was coping in that sort of isolation environment?

WAYNE MORIARTY: Well the bubble, within the bubble, they remain as active as ever. I imagine most of the listeners aren't familiar with care homes, but they have so many activities they do and it's a variety of activities, depending upon the extent of the infirmity, to keep our loved ones active and as alert as possible and as engaged as possible. So those didn't stop. While I was meeting with my dad, they were having a birthday party right behind him for somebody who had just turned 90 something, maybe 100. Who knows? But there were 20 people all around singing Happy Birthday and bouncing balloons around. So those activities inside the bubble have stayed the same.

MK: Was it tough to say goodbye to your dad? Are you going to be able to see him soon?

WAYNE MORIARTY: Yes, I'm going to see him very soon. I think the next meeting ought to be in another week to 10 days. I was very fortunate that the couple, the group behind us, because they schedule these, didn't show up. So the meeting ended up being about, oh, well into, well over an hour and a half. So I felt spoiled. So saying goodbye was tough, but I felt extremely lucky that I got to stay, visit with him for that long.

MK: I guess the universe was on your side for that visit. Hey Wayne, great talking to you. You know, last time you were here, we heard you and your dad singing together and we just thought we'll end our interview, hearing your father, Paul's voice. This is from before the pandemic. Wayne, thanks so much.

WAYNE MORIARTY: Thank you, Mark. All the best.

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[Clip of Paul and Wayne Moriarty singing]

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As sports leagues get ready to restart, Black Lives Matter messaging is front and centre

Guests: Morgan Campbell, Donnovan Bennett

MK: I'm Mark Kelley and you're listening to The Current. Professional sports are getting back in gear, but one big change since the pandemic break is the presence of the Black Lives Matter message. More players, teams and leagues are embracing the fight against racism after the deaths of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor at the hands of police. This is Toronto Raptor, Norman Powell, Dallas Star Centre, Tyler Seguin, and National Women's Soccer League player, Sarah Gordon.

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VOICE 1: I'm going to use the platform that we have to speak about the issues and talk about this and what it all being televised and every game is going to be shown that way. You know, you can do a lot to show where you stand and speak on the matters that way.

VOICE 2: It just hit me seeing everything with George Floyd and you know realizing how many black friends I have, you know, from growing up in Brampton and just at the gym in Toronto. And, you know, seeing myself at that point, at that time that, you know, it wasn't my business and waiting a day or two and realizing that, you know, that's part of the problem is me sitting here saying, you know, it's not my business, even though it bothered me.

VOICE 3: I think as much as we are here to play soccer, there are more important things going on than soccer. And so, you know, the narrative by the media has been changed to just be about the anthem and yes, of course, we want it to be focused on our soccer skills, but if we can get people thinking and talking and continuing to talk about this movement that's important and necessary.

MK: For some athletes, speaking out against racism is nothing new, but getting such support and public support from their teams and leagues most definitely is. Joining me now to talk about that is Morgan Campbell, a senior contributor for CBC Sports, and Donnovan Bennett, a host and writer at Sportsnet. Good morning to you both.

DONNOVAN BENNETT: Good morning.

MORGAN CAMPBELL: Good morning, Mark. Good morning Donnovan too.

MK: All right. Well, we've got a great reunion here with great conversation. Donnovan, baseball got underway this past weekend. You saw the first game of the season, the Yankees and Nationals. Both teams knelt in unison before the national anthem. They had that long black ribbon uniting them. What did you think of that to start things off this season?

DONNOVAN BENNETT: I mean, I thought it was, I suppose, a good start, specifically because baseball, although Jackie Robinson is given a lot of credit for breaking the barrier in that sport in terms of colour and moving the conversation for the United States, baseball has its own racial issues right now. And the fact that you had a manager kneel, which is something that we haven't seen in North American pro sports. We had a couple of Blue Jays kneel too for both anthems, the Canadian national anthem and the American anthem. Continued the conversation in baseball, who I thought would have been tone deaf, was part of the conversation. And so I suppose I was pleasantly surprised because the bar for me wasn't set very high going into opening day.

MK: Yeah, well, Morgan, what did you think? I mean, it sort of set the tone now, I mean, along with basketball as well, but as Donnovan points out, baseball's never really been outspoken. It certainly in recent years when it comes to issues of race. What did you think about them setting the tone with that start to the season?

MORGAN CAMPBELL: A couple of things. One, we're at the point where the people who get most caught up in who's kneeling and who's not kneeling are white members of the sports media, mainly of the mainstream sports media, only because seeing someone kneel or not kneel has just become like an easy, lazy way to look smart and connected and progressive on these issues. Cause if someone kneels, you ask them why they kneeled. If someone doesn't kneel, you ask them why they didn't kneel and boom, there you have a story that connects automatically to all these issues. Now as far as baseball is concerned, a lot of these corporations that are riding this wave, this cresting wave of public opinion, this wave of public opinion that's breaking in favour of the Black Lives Matter movement, I'm not sure how much they're doing this because they are that progressive or how much they're doing this, because they're just trying to follow demographics. Because all of these people that are out protesting, if I'm a corporation, the other thing I also see are a whole bunch of potential customers. And I don't know if I want to be on the wrong side of them. Which side? Which way is the wind blowing? Then that's the way we're blowing it. And as far as baseball specifically is concerned , one, yes, you have BLM stencilled onto some of these diamonds behind the pitcher's mound, but also until Donald Trump decided he wasn't going to throw out the first pitch at the Yankees, at an upcoming Yankees game, Donald Trump was ready to make the first pitch at an upcoming Yankees game. And like Donald Trump, has a long track record of doing and saying racist things. So it's tough for me to believe that you're really committed to the fight against racism, on the one hand, when you are giving platforms to people with a long track record of racism, on the other hand.

MK: Yeah. Donnovan, let me ask you about that, because I got to admit too, the journalist in me is always a little bit skeptical. How much do you think that this is a PR movement to be on the right side of history?

DONNOVAN BENNETT: Yes, some of it is certainly performative. There's no question that all of a sudden, you know, every hockey player and, you know, hockey executive was putting out a press release, certainly after, you know, African-American, African-Canadian athletes said, we need to hear from you. So I think part of this performative, but I'm going to be honest and I love Morgan. I love the fact that he keeps corporations and executives and athletes feet to the fire on this, I also don't really care. I don't really care if you're doing it for moral reasons or you're doing it for money reasons. I'm actually more invested in the outcome. And so when the Raptors are riding through Florida with Black Lives Matter on their bus, that awareness is important. When the NFL is giving $250 million to the players coalition, that money is important. So I'm actually speaking to people and saying, if you don't want to do it for morals, it's fine. Here's the financial case on why you should do it, because as Morgan rightly points out, your audience now is saying, we want to see what side of history you're going to be on. And people are going to change. Executives are going to change. Team leaders are going to change. Their morals are going to go with them. The profit line is not going to change. And so let's be honest, these companies, these Fortune 500 companies are for profit organizations. They're not charities, they're not non-profits. So to me, I think it makes sense to make the financial case on why, I don't know, inclusion, diversity, expanding your audience, having unique visitors, letting everyone know they're welcome to your sport, that's a great business case. And so for the change that I hope we all see, I think you do actually have to make sure that there's dollars behind it. And so I don't really care if it's just a marketing play. I care that the actual work gets done coming out of it.

MK: But, you know, there's not going to be and of course, nobody would expect there will be unanimity, you know the support for this and after that opening baseball game, Rudy Giuliani, the former New York City mayor, President Trump's personal lawyer tweeted, "All those ballplayers, including the Yankees, taking a knee during the national anthem of the country that made them millionaires is hypocritical. Support for BLM, which is provoking attacks on our law enforcement and innocent people all over America, is disgraceful." Morgan, you know, athletes, sometimes they don't want to stick their neck out for fear of retribution. Do you think they are taking a risk here? Or is it a low risk endeavour?

MORGAN CAMPBELL: Now it's a low risk because no one is is blackballing any of these young men and young women the way they did to Colin Kaepernick. And as a journalist, it's a dangerous game and there are diminishing returns on their diminishing returns on the here's Donald Trump's tweet, here's really Rudy Giuliani's tweet. This is news, that's routine we've been trapped in since 2016. Donald Trump's opinion in and of itself is not news, and neither is Rudy Giuliani. So it really doesn't matter what Rudy Giuliani thinks of whether or not these young men are disrespecting the flag and the anthem is a mess. Totally separate from the fact that, like taking in any other context, is something that you do out of respect. Like when the coach calls the players, like for younger players at the end of the practice, when the coach wants to say something to the players, he says gather around guys, take a knee. You take a knee because you respect the coach. You take a knee because you respect the guy that's getting carted off the field because he broke his neck to entertain his fans that don't even appreciate him. Right? They want him to go out now and play in the middle of a pandemic. So let's not, let's dispense with the idea that taking a knee during the anthem was ever disrespectful. But what Rudy Giuliani thinks of it, I'm not sure that it matters cause I really don't know how many people he actually represents and how many people agree with him outside of the Oval Office.

MK: Well, let's talk about the WNBA because it dedicated this past week in opening weekend to Black Lives Matter, the season to Breonna Taylor, the memory of Breonna Taylor. But one of the co-owners, the Atlanta Dream, the Republican senator, Kelly Lefler, she's come out against that saying she didn't want to alienate fans. And Donald Trump has said he's not going to support sports where athletes kneel. I mean I'm wondering, I just want to play a clip from the Dream star, Renee Montgomery, who's announced she's sitting out the rest of the season to focus on social justice issues, talking about fan reaction.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: When fans don't want to do what the players want to do, again, maybe then that's a point where they shouldn't watch those games. If it's going to bother a fan that much, that a player wants to promote equality, that a player wants to promote the movement, then maybe they shouldn't watch it. You know, she's saying that they're going to lose fans, but I think that a lot of people will be welcoming to the idea of inclusion.

MK: Donnovan, do you find that athletes are now finding their voice? Athletes who never really used to take a stand like this are now feeling empowered that this is their moment?

DONNOVAN BENNETT: Yeah, well, I mean, if we're going to speak to the WNBA specifically, they and their players have had a long and ongoing commitment in terms of social justice. It's by far been the most vocal. In fact, you know, they've never been asleep on these issues. Maya Moore, you know, literally one of the best players in the history of the sport in the prime of her career stepped away to work on social justice issues. So the women and often in many movements, the black women have been the leaders on this issue and continues to be the case. I think there's certainly a strength in numbers. And when you have a bunch of, you know, NBA players speaking to these issues, but also wearing WNBA hoodies around the bubble, when you have LeBron James using his entire press availability to speak to Breonna Taylor and why thee Say Her Name movement is important. And even when asked about sports, he redirects the question somehow to talk about the issues that he wants to speak on and not to speak on them, he spoke on them with thought, with intelligence. I do think that that other athletes look up and say, OK, I can do the same thing. So not only in the NBA, did you have Jeremy Grant do the same, who was a role player, who most people probably wouldn't care what he says about most things. But when he speaks and told you about this issue, it starts to trend. But Alex Caruso, a white player, doing the same with his availability, a teammate of LeBron. So I do think there is strength in numbers. And what you don't want is people feeling compelled to speak when they're not educated on the topic, but I don't think that really helps anyone, including that specific athlete.

MK: Yeah, I think that's a good point. And I, you know, I used to cover sports as well. And there are some people who are very committed to these issues, some not so much, because they really are just committed to their sport and they may be putting themselves in a very precarious position if they want to start talking about racism or societal issues and inequalities like that. So, Morgan, I just wonder what more can teams and leagues do beyond the players to signal a genuine commitment to fighting racism?

MORGAN CAMPBELL: You know, it depends on the sport. When, so the NFL has said, hey, we're going to play the Negro national anthem. We're going to play Lift Every Voice and Sing before games this year. Hey, cool. Nobody was asking for that. But what people have been asking the NFL for, for a long time is a level playing field for black coaches and black executives because we haven't had that. We've seen, you know, black coaches get fewer chances to succeed, more chances and fewer chances to succeed and fewer chances to fail than white coaches. And a lot of people have a vested interest in seeing that change. Like sports like baseball and hockey, at the professional level and on down, have so much racism embedded into the culture of these sports. Like, if you really care about black people, then you're going to find ways to make black people feel more welcoming to the sport. Like every year we have this debate on Major League Baseball, when you count up the number of American-born and raised black players and this number gets smaller and smaller and smaller. It's kind of plateaued at around seven percent, eight percent of MLB rosters. And every year we have these debates and the debates, as a lot of white observers frame them, always come back to some version of black people don't have the attention span to play baseball. Baseball's too boring. Baseball's too slow for black people. Essentially saying black people are too dumb to play the sport. When you talk to any black player, they will tell you about the racism they face coming through the system, moving up through the system. And so here's Ian Desmon now, taking the season off, saying, listen, I had teammates who said white power at my games. I had teammates who said this and now, you were still asking the question, I guess black people, it's too boring for baseball. No. Ian Desmond just told you what the problem is. Right? So if these sports, we believe, are serious about making life better for black people, like I don't know if the sport, the sports lead is in a position to say, OK, we're going to support Kamala Harris as Biden's VP pick, but they can do things internally to increase diversity, inclusion, increase prospects and increase job process at the executive level for black people.

MK: Morgan.

MORGAN CAMPBELL: Yes?

MK: I wish I could increase time, but we can't do that because we have run out of it. Morgan, Donnovan, thank you so much. Morgan Campbell, senior contributor, CBC Sports. Donnovan Bennett, host at SportsNet.

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Documentary: “Not Alone”

MK: That many troubles of Vancouver's Downtown Eastside are well-documented: poverty, drugs, desperation. But our next story from there is about hope, about a First Nations man from Kitimat on BC's North Coast who is trying to counter some of that. It's about his unique work, trying to make a difference one day and one person at a time. This is Wawmeesh Hamilton's documentary, "Not Alone." It originally aired on The Current in February.

SOUNDCLIP

JAMES: Yeah and, this is actually one of the alleys I used to hang out in.

PRODUCER: James is a complicated man.

I'm James Harry from Haisla Nation.

PRODUCER: He's a Haisla First Nation and Kitimat married with children. He was a former addict.

JAMES: I was on crack cocaine, alcohol.

PRODUCER: I'm walking the streets in New Orleans with the Downtown Eastside in Vancouver with James.

JAMES: So we're going to walk down here. We'll get into the alley behind the west. And that's probably the busiest alley down here.

PRODUCER: So could you tell me about what your life was like when you were addicted and living on the Downtown Eastside?

JAMES: One word, and that's Hell. I didn't know at the time. But it's was living around the lower risk places in North America.

[Sound: Sirens].

JAMES: In the winter time. It was nothing but rain, was just trying to stay warm and trying to keep dry. Was there is a dumpster, or doorway or just the [unintelligible]. Fighting for a spot in those doorways. This is the busiest alley, and you got to bare there. The alleys are another world. There were dark, dank, Dickinsonian World. Summertime, and it was people outside there drinking all day and somewhere to relieve themselves. And this is where they come. The horrific smell of urine and the faeces and just combined with the heat.

PRODUCER: He still goes down to the Downtown Eastside every day. Only now he's looking for his own First Nations' people who are struggling with addiction themselves. James is just over 50 years old. He's got what I call a one of the guys look. He's slender but sturdy built, and that counts from years of playing basketball and soccer. Salt and pepper hair, more salt and pepper. He's got deep set eyes. He's been six years, I believe now, drug and alcohol free. During the height of his addiction. James once again be the foray into the Downtown Eastside into a particular alley that he frequented.

JAMES: When I knew I was going to use and I was en route to pick up her alcohol or drugs, I always had that guilty feeling back my head.

PRODUCER: He was there for I think he said three to five days drugging, just drugging.

JAMES: I remember this one, this one moment. Going home, try to sneak in and open the door. And my kids popped up and see how happy they were. That we're okay and that we're alive and how quickly those, those eyes went to hurt eyes.

PRODUCER: And that for the first time pierced him.

JAMES: I vowed never to, in my power deaths to bring on those hurt eyes anymore.

PRODUCER: And that was the thing that propelled him to seek help for his addiction and get it and become a drug and alcohol free guy.

JAMES: My very first month into recovery an older told me, said creator has kept you here for a reason. You got to find out what their reason is.

PRODUCER: He'd still go down to the Downtown Eastside to congregate with his Haisla people.

JAMES: I come down here and I'd just grab a bite, treat for a coffees and pass along and talk.

PRODUCER: And one day he happened upon a young fellow.

JAMES: My cousin's son.

PRODUCER: From Hiasla, who was deep into addiction.

JAMES: I know he's struggling down there and they were worried about him. So I...

PRODUCER: Connected with him. He just made a human Haisla First Nations bro connection.

JAMES: He called and let him know that we found him and he's okay and continued to connect with them and stay in touch with them.

PRODUCER: And in time, he encouraged the young man to get treatment. And I think the young guy said to him, just take me home.

JAMES: I said. Let's get you home.

PRODUCER: And James drove him to his little single room occupancy unit, which is like a bug drug infested little eight and a half by eleven hotel room somewhere in the dark, dark Downtown Eastside. And the guy got his little bag of things. Got into James Car. And James drove him 18 hours home.

JAMES: I got him out of the city.

PRODUCER: To Kitimat to the Haisla First Nation, and the guy got into the [unintelligible] center, the healing center that they have there and kicked his addiction. He still lives there today. The young man's father, James cousin, was on the Kitimat First Nations Council. And he saw not only this connection James had with his son, but the living, breathing proof that whatever James had done with him worked. And if it could work with him, could it work with others. Two or three months later the Kitimat First Nation went to James with a proposal. And that proposal was to be an outreach worker to find their members struggling with addiction on the Downtown Eastside in Vancouver. Make a connection. Encourage them to get off the street and to get treatment. And James said yes.

JAMES: When I was first told about the position and exactly why the Created got me here.

PRODUCER: That's why on any given day you can find James walking the streets in the alleys of the Downtown Eastside.

JAMES: I make my way down to the war zone and say a little prayer in my car and ask the Creator to keep me safe. As the ancestors to be behind me.

PRODUCER: You don't notice him. That's one of the first things you notice. Very unobtrusive, not aggressive , very monastically. Like he's comfy, but he's always his eyes are always darting back and forth.

JAMES: Look, both ways here, just looking.

PRODUCER: Watching.

JAMES: In the doorways, looking for people, looking for any, maybe, in neighboring communities. We have a couple of members that hang out here and I walk through here. I'll just stay like let them know I'm here and let them know that support is always there.

PRODUCER: When he'll walk in, you see someone who knows. He just makes a connection.

JAMES: Enjoying the weather?

VOICE: Yes. Nice today.

PRODUCER: Hi, how are you? How's things? Where are you at in life? And I notice James shake hands and I noticed James hugged him too. And that's how it was all the time that we walked down. I noticed when James sees other Haisla people, he always greets them in the same way. He says yaw'c.

JAMES: Yaw'c.

VOICE: Yaw'c. Heavin an elder back home it's yaw'c.

PRODUCER: And people will see that back and that's how is the people's greeting to one another. So they, they know. They never forgot something still, it's a little connection but it's a connection nonetheless.

JAMES: Just passing out the coffees and saying hi to somebody struggling down there, are a lot feels alone down there. Just means the world to him.

PRODUCER: How do you find that her Haisla people?

JAMES: How do I find them?

PRODUCER: Yes.

JAMES: By word of mouth or just down my daily rounds. And sometimes by fluke, I'll be walking down the alley and I just say hi to somebody and before you know it I find out that they're Haislan.

PRODUCER: When he makes a connection with a Haisla person struggling with addiction, his first words to them. Every single one of them, he says:

JAMES: And I'm James Harry. I'm here on behalf of Haisla Nation. And I want you to know that you are not alone.

PRODUCER: And that pierces people almost all the time. Almost all the time. Some people reject him or her.

JAMES: Rejection hurts.

PRODUCER: We ran into a guy that was struggling with addiction already. And you could see that he was tweaking. It's a drug used term. He was under the extreme influence of a drug.

JAMES: I just know it because I was there at one time myself. You know, maybe it'll just take some time.

PRODUCER: Two minutes later, when we walked down the same alley, another guy approached him, a short, quiet spoken, nice fellow that is partly from the Haisla First Edition and another First Nation. And James had been talking to him for some time. This time, though, the guy approached James and James broke our walk.

JAMES: Give me a couple of minutes, okay?

PRODUCER: And said, I have something I have to do. Could you wait for me at this corner? And I did. And while I waited for him at that corner, he took the guys that he talks to him. That's what the guy wanted. He was ready to try.

JAMES: I know, I know exactly what you're going through. Maybe it may be that you're using a different drug or what have you, but it- I still see that person struggling. I can still see that the person lost and feeling unworthy and not deserving of life. I know how that feels.

PRODUCER: Edwin was the first Hiasla person James helped as an outreach worker.

JAMES: Very first success story. Edwin.

PRODUCER: Tell me about Edwin.

PRODUCER: I met him on the block.

EDWIN: He just approached me one time in the downtown core when I was drinking, I guess.

JAMES: I remembered him from high school.

PRODUCER: And he looked at Edwin and said, My name was James Harry. I'm from the Haisla First Nation and I want you to know you're not alone.

EDWIN: When he mentioned his name, I said, Oh, you used to play basketball. Didn't you? James Harry

PRODUCER: Edwin Fow was born into a Haisla family, but I think at age five or six was adopted in Kitimat by a non-First Nations family.

JAMES: He's part of that sixty scoop era.

PRODUCER: In later years, met a girl and was going to have a baby. When his daughter was born, he wasn't there for her. He was off drinking and partying. Two of her family members, male, didn't like what he did and took him out of Haisla. Right now.

EDWIN: They said they didn't care where I went, but they said I was not welcome in Kitimat.

PRODUCER: So he left.

EDWIN: I was like, devastated.

PRODUCER: Got to Vancouver, was drawn like a moth to light to the Downtown Eastside.

EDWIN: It wasn't difficult for me to blend in and get to know people.

PRODUCER: Just the sheer number of indigenous people. And very quickly took out with people who drank, a lot.

EDWIN: Met some people in shelters saying, hey, you want to go and drink and drinking Chinese cooking wine. And gradually I drank real alcohol and beer and gradually [unintelligible] drink and drink and drink and drink. In middle 90s maybe I was drinking hand sanitizer.

PRODUCER: Rubbing alcohol.

EDWIN: Listerine too.

PRODUCER: Hairspray.

EDWIN: I have ended up in hospital periodically. Like I know alcohol is depressing. I'd pick up the phone and say, I'm suicidal, I want to end my life and end up going to the hospital. End up going into the psychiatric ward. Thinking, well, not given my life up because of my family, like, I I know they don't have that kind of money to bury me in or whatever.

PRODUCER: People he knew would pass out and not wake up.

EDWIN: It's brought a lot of my friends that I associated with down. Killed them.

PRODUCER: So I think he tried to heal once himself, got into drugs and came out.

EDWIN: And then I relapsed. And then...

PRODUCER: In the course of that relapse, while he was literally laying on the ground, James walked up to him and reached down and pulled him up.

EDWIN: He said, oh, well, you're ready to do it again.

JAMES: I said, I gave him some options and he was, let's do it.

EDWIN: I said, Yeah.

JAMES: Let's get this going.

EDWIN: He made the arrangements.

PRODUCER: That was two years ago.

EDWIN: He helped me get clean and sober.

PRODUCER: He's alive.

EDWIN: Yes. I owe it all to him for saving my life. It wasn't for James. I probably still out there in my addiction or, six feet under.

PRODUCER: He works a little job.

EDWIN: An organization that end with, Mission Possible.

PRODUCER: And is one of several cleanup crews that clean cleanup along the streets. And he often says there was a time when I used to litter, I'd throw my stuff away. I didn't care. Now I pick up after people that don't know what a garbage can is.

PRODUCER: What was it about James that made you trust and open up to him?

EDWIN: Him being a Haisla, I can make it felt good that somebody out there did care about me. Back then, I didn't think no one cared about me. He's proud of what I accomplished.

PRODUCER: When I sat down to talk to Edwin, when he was just getting ready to leave for Kitimat the next day, he was going back to Hiasla. Chief among the reasons for him going back was the hope of meeting his daughter.

EDWIN: If she wants to.

PRODUCER: The daughter who was an infant when he left, she'd be 22 now, maybe twenty.

EDWIN: It's going to be nervous. Maybe I'll take her for dinner and sit down and have a conversation.

JAMES: Down there is who's running from something. They're running from a trauma. It's no secret that what happened to our people in residential schools in the sixties' scoop and the pain they endured in those horrible schools and what they brought back to our communities inflicted are on the community and the families and [unintelligible] today's totally passed on.

PRODUCER: The fentanyl crisis gives more urgency to his work because at least two to three people that I know of that he's tried working with have died of fentanyl overdoses.

JAMES: [Unintelligible] just a Russian roulette.

PRODUCER: He grieves those losses.

JAMES: The one that we lost and we had the connection. They would call and keep in touch. Then you got one call one night, let me know that she didn't make it. That was her breaking. It was made me question if I'm if I'm doing my job right.

PRODUCER: But you've got to go on. There's other lives to still try and save.

JAMES: I've been living in Vancouver approximately 20 years, 25 years.

PRODUCER: Edwin's about 5 foot 7, 5 foot 8. A few times that I've seen him he's wearing a hoodie with Haisla on it. It's a an indigenous design designed by somebody from Haisla.

EDWIN: The hoodie that I'm wearing now is James. James actually gave me along with a pair of sweat sets. It says Haisla a nation down the lake.

PRODUCER: And a Haisla ball cap.

EDWIN: This makes me proud to know where my background is.

JAMES: The day that I met Edwin was also the day that Crystal Smith, the chief counselor of the Haisla First Nation came down to take an outreach walk with James.

EDWIN: I got to actually meet the chief counsel, Crystal.

PRODUCER: She is the face and the voice, for the most part, for the Haisla First Nation.

CRYSTAL SMITH: My name is Crystal Smith. I am the elected chief councillor.

PRODUCER: She said, if we're going to back this program, I want to know what it does. I want to see it. She was shocked. Stunned, I think, in many ways by what she saw especially in those alleys. Later when we went to the [unintelligible]. That's when we Edwin.

EDWIN: I said, yaw'c, which means hello in our language. And she just looked around and James introduced me. And he's got to always put that Mr. This is Mr. Foe, one of our successful person that succeeded. And she says, so you're Edwin, you are amazing to our people.

PRODUCER: And she refers to Edwin as a living, breathing success story

EDWIN: Oh, is an honor.

JAMES: We had just one member, a walk and walk out man. And I haven’t seen her for a couple of days and I stop and talk for a five minutes and it goes - Like blurt it out, said, I'm not ready today, but just to know that you're here for us and when we're ready means the world to me. And I know it means the world to a lot of people out there, our people out there.

PRODUCER: James makes trips back to Kitimat regularly. It's part of his job. And on the road you go for 18 hours. Could you tell me what that drive is like? That's a long drive.

JAMES: It's a beautiful drive. At certain points of our walk I will think about parts of that drive, going through the canyon. We have our normal stop at the canyon and we will sit on the barrier there and I'll just we'll sit there for about five, 10 minutes just looking at the power of the river.

PRODUCER: What is it like for the person that you're taking home?

JAMES: Off to sleep. More often out they're lost on those two three days banner with no sleep at all, and so always just wake them up for some food and bathroom break and right back at it

EDWIN: He's the driving force of the downtown core. He tries to help.

JAMES: I feel this position them knowing that they have a little piece of home that is trying to help them.

EDWIN: I do miss home. But when I go home, it's only for a visit. Unless something comes up when I go up there and my daughter tells me, Dad, can you live at home? Then the Dad part will probably say yes. Okay, I'll stay home.

PRODUCER: Well, I spoke to Edwin by phone the other day. He said he went to Kitimat, but he didn't end up connecting with his daughter while he was there. And he was reticent about why, but he did hold out hope that one day they might meet again. Edwin's back in Vancouver, back working at the same place he worked at before, and he's still sober approaching his third year of sobriety.

JAMES: When I see the marina, and I see I see the water to see the ocean. It, they feel grounded. I want everybody I work with, everybody that come and talk to us who is struggling with alcohol and drugs to feel the way I feel today. When they're ready, I'm here.

MK: We've been listening to "Not Alone," a documentary produced by CBC's Wawmeesh Hamilton, Rafferty Baker and The Current's documentary editor, Joan Webber. It originally aired in February. Since then, the Nisga'a Nation in British Columbia has hired its own outreach worker who works alongside James Harry.

[Music]

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NHL players bringing popularity to the sport of pickleball

Guests: Robin Grant

MK: Well, as we talked about earlier, the NHL is back this weekend. Teams are settling into their bubbles in Edmonton and Toronto, gearing up for the Stanley Cup round robin. And players have found a new way to stay loose. Get ready, folks. It's pickleball time.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Let the game begin.

MK: That's the Tampa Bay Lightning's, Tyler Johnson and some of his friends deep into a round of the racquet sport.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: We've had a couple of people thrown out for fighting or some vulgar language, so hopefully we won't have to deal with that again.

MK: Well, that rough play isn't a typical feature of pickleball, but now that NHLers are raising its profile, pickleballers believe the sport could break into the mainstream. Robin Grant is the founder and president of the Vaudreuil-Dorion Pickleball Club outside Montreal. Good morning, Robin.

ROBIN GRANT: Good morning, Mark.

MK: Well, I've watched this game played before. Never played it myself, but for all the pickleball newbies out there, tell us, describe the sport for us.

ROBIN GRANT: Well, the sport is very simple. It's a combination of four different sports, badminton, tennis, ping pong and racquetball. And pickleball is played on a badminton sized court with a tennis net. The paddle is the size of a racquetball paddle and with a smooth surface and we use a wiffle ball. A wiffle ball is basically a plastic ball with holes in it. And if you think of pickleball, a lot of people describe it as playing ping pong on the table. That's probably the easiest way to describe it.

MK: Well, the other way to describe it is that one of the fastest growing sports in North America. I've heard this time and time again that this sport is on fire. What is fueling its popularity, Robin?

ROBIN GRANT: It's a competitive sport. It can be played socially. It's a fun game. It can be played by just about anybody. My oldest member in my club is 82. And I've got some teenagers playing and they're teaching pickleball now in elementary schools in the States. That's how fast it's growing. The sport a couple of years ago had about three million people playing and they estimate that within five years it's going to be eight million players. That's how fast it's growing. It's an addictive sport. Once you start playing, you don't want to let it go. It's much easier to play than tennis, simply because the serve in tennis is very difficult. If you've ever played, you have to swing that arm up, it hurts your shoulder, it injures your elbow, whereas your serve in pickleball is an underhanded serve. So it makes it much easier. And when you're playing on a badminton sized court, you're playing on a third of a tennis court. So it makes for a much faster game and an exciting game also.

MK: Yeah and I'm hearing stories about how at some tennis clubs they're actually replacing the tennis courts with pickleball courts. Do you see it one day as a sport that would actually knock your rival, you know, the popularity of tennis in North America?

ROBIN GRANT: Absolutely. Absolutely. There's no doubt about it. You look at our community, five years ago, we didn't have any pickleball. I've got started and right now, they've painted lines on the tennis courts. I've got on four tennis courts, I've got eight pickleball courts. So I can have twice as many players playing at any given time compared to tennis.

MK: Can you ever take a sport seriously though, when it's called pickleball?

ROBIN GRANT: Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, where pickleball comes from?Pickleball was invented basically in Bainbridge Island, just outside of Seattle in 1964. And the name Pickleball comes from the fact that the owner and originator of the sport, Joel Pritchard, had a dog, a little cocker spaniel named Pickle. And Pickle used to love to run after the balls. So the name came about. Here you go, pickleball.

MK: So it's a great game for people who love tennis, badminton, ping pong and dogs.

ROBIN GRANT: Absolutely. Absolutely. You don't have to retrieve your ball.

MK: It's fantastic. I love the fact that the NHL players as well have been and I know, I've seen this video of Tyler Johnson from we had him there at the beginning, who's a big fan, his friends playing, other NHLers playing. Obviously, this is going to give the sport a real shot in the arm. It's great to see it gaining popularity, especially because it's a sport that appeals to all ages. Robin, good to talk to you. And long live pickleball.

ROBIN GRANT: Absolutely and good talking with a former West Islander. Thank you very much.

MK: Yeah, I grew up right around the corner in Beaconsfield. We were neighbours.

ROBIN GRANT: Absolutely. And if you come back and you stop in Vaudreuil-Dorion, you're more than welcome to try pickleball with us.

MK: Happy to take you up on that, Robin. Thanks so much.

ROBIN GRANT: Robin Grant is the president of the Vaudreuil-Dorion Pickleball Club in Quebec. That's it for The Current today. Stay tuned for Q with Tom Power. Now pickleballers can be anyone, some are pro-hockey players, and some are musicians. And pickleball is their inspiration. We'll leave you today with a pickleball medley. I'm Mark Kelley. Thanks for listening to The Current.

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[Clip of pickeball medley]

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July 27, 2020 episode transcript

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