Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2020

The AIH Transcript for July 08, 2020

Hosts: Nil Koksal and Chris Howden

Nil Koksal: Good evening, I'm Nil Koksal, sitting in for Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I’m Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

NK: Checking Themselves. Montreal police announce new rules for street checks — which have disproportionately targeted people of colour. One of the activists who pushed for the change tells us: it's not enough.

CH: Basic math. With the government already taking on huge levels of debt...we reach a senator who says now is the right time to provide a basic income for all Canadians.

NK: His heart was in the right place, twice. A cardiologist intervenes to save another hiker on an Alberta trail…then finds himself operating on the same man, days later.

CH: Way down in the hole. The federal finance minister says the coronavirus has the government more than a trillion dollars in the red. But former Parliamentary Budget Officer Kevin Page says the real problem is what comes next.

NK: It's very cute — but there's no chemistry. A British man starts up a webcam so people can watch baby owls in his garden — he’s mystified when Facebook takes it down for "adult nudity" and "sexual activity".

CH: And... I'll have what she's having. A salad-serving robot named Sally can do anything a salad bar can do — minus the germy risks of people sneezing at an open food station. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

CH: As It Happens, the Wednesday edition. Radio that loves achoos your own adventure.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Montreal street checks, fiscal update, Canmore CPR

Montreal street checks

Guest: Balarama Holness

CH: When it comes to policing in Montreal, the numbers speak for themselves. A recent report by the city showed that Black and Indigenous people were four to five times more likely to be stopped by police than white people. Today, the police chief announced he was taking steps to address so-called "street checks" — when people are stopped and questioned, not necessarily in connection with a specific crime. But Chief Sylvain Caron stopped short of banning the practice. Balarama Holness is a law student and activist who's been pushing for police reform in Montreal. That's where we reached him.

NK: Mr. Holness, Montreal's police chief, said today street checks will now be based on observable facts and not, quote, discriminatory motives. Do these changes go far enough for you?

BALARAMA HOLNESS: Well, first of all, they're just conforming with existing law. It's unclear by that statement if they're admitting that previously those street checks were based on discrimination. So that is not a statement that is innovative. It is nothing new. I certainly hope that they weren't overtly and through their intention partaking in discriminatory acts and carding in the past. But that is nothing impressive, to say the least.

NK: Let's go through some of the reasons the chief, Sylvain Caron, says that street checks will still be allowed. The first that they outlined is to help someone in need.

BH: That's an interesting component because there have been multiple killings in Montreal, and the action to advance that was because someone was in need, but it was someone under psychological duress. So there are certain instances where we do not need police officers intercepting or carding people in need. Rather, you need a psychologist or a social worker. And that's a more I would say holistic framework of when should police officers intervene, when shouldn't they? And ultimately, a very good point to mention is that last year, a report came out and said that individuals of colour were four to five times more likely to be intercepted by police officers. Therefore, even though someone may be in need. Number one, someone else can intervene, a specialist. And number two, they're intervening in the wrong circumstances that sometimes results, results, excuse me, in death.

NK: And one of the other reasons the chief says that street checks should continue to go ahead and will continue to go ahead is to, quote, collect information in line with Montreal Police's mission. What do you make of that exception?

BH: And I think you raise a very good point. And, you know, their mission is certainly to protect Montreallers or public security, but that's very vague. So I think that that was not a good point and a good reason to continue street checks. I would remind people that Nova Scotia banned police street checks and carding because they found that it was not resulting in any additional, you know, catching criminals or anything of the sort. Also, the Court of Appeal in Ontario in 2017 said that it was discriminatory and disproportionately targeted minorities. So when you have vague statements like that that say we're doing this to uphold, you know, our mission or our vision, that opens the door for arbitrarily detention and for discretion. And that's why people are unhappy, really, with the report.

NK: The aspect of this where police are going to now have to report and record every street check under the new rules, will that at least help in that you might get some data about whether police are following their own new guidelines?

BH: Yeah, and that's a great point. And clearly, you did your homework. But the thing is, is that we know that the data states that there is an increase in interceptions and carding by police officers in relation to minority groups. For example, Indigenous women are 11 times more likely to be intercepted by police officers. And the data is showing an ascension. It's increasing. So just because we have the data, it doesn't mean that the police officers were actually going to curtail their behaviour. To give you an example, Black and Brown people in Montreal, they were carded to the tune of 40-thousand times a year for the last three years. And even though the data came out, there is no signs of slowing. My organization, Montreal in Action, get calls on a regular basis of people being stopped and profiled by police officers, so.

NK: Have you been stopped?

BH: I was not only stopped. When I was 18 years old, I was thrown in the back of a cop car for loitering. My friends and I were, you know, in the streets playing basketball and kind of being rowdy. And we were intimidated. And this is my time at John Abbott College. A police officer put me in the back of his car. He let me go because I didn't commit any crime. But there are multiple instances where especially young people of colour are intimidated by police officers. And Dr. Anne-Marie Livingstone, a fellow at Harvard University, did research on Montreal profilage. And the results from the study were clear that police officers do intercept, card and intimidate vulnerable people. And that is a continuing problem that will not be mitigated by this current report.

NK: What's the long-term effect of having an experience like that, in your own experience?

BH: For me, it's somewhat different because I was fortunate to go on to play football, and I was fortunate enough to play in the CFL. And I was fortunate enough to have parents that really pressed education on me. So even though we grew up poor, I was able to still find my way through academics and sports and to be successful. However, young people who experience these forms of acts, it has a huge impact on their identity, especially if they don't find a way in society to be successful or to contribute. There could be individuals that might see themselves as criminals, even though they're not. And that's why the Black principal and what it means to be Black has been so damaged and vitiated is because whether it's sentencing, whether it's judges, whether it's police officers, the state has pressed a negative image so deeply upon people of colour that they then have adopted some of those behaviours. So this is not just a question of public security. It’s a question of identity and a question of how are we going to mitigate the interception of police towards people of colour and to allow themselves to really empower themselves and to contribute to society because it is a damaging, damaging aspect. Even if you don't get a criminal record, the experience is damaging short and long-term.

NK: Mr. Holness, thank you for your time.

BH: Thank you so much.

NK: Take care.

BH: Take care. Bye.

CH: Balarama Holness is a law student and activist. We reached him in Montreal.

[Music: Indie rock]

Fiscal update

Guest: Kevin Page

CH: Bill Morneau was throwing around some big numbers this afternoon. Big numbers that are going to catch up with us in time. The federal finance minister delivered what he called his economic snapshot of the government's mid-pandemic finances. Accounting for taxes not collected, and all the money spent getting Canadians through the lockdown, Minister Morneau is expecting to end the year with more than a trillion dollars in debt. Kevin Page is the former Parliamentary Budget Officer, and now the CEO of the Institute of Fiscal Studies and Democracy at the University of Ottawa.

NK: Mr. Page, you used to keep tabs on what the government was spending. What's it like to see numbers like this coming from the finance minister?

KEVIN PAGE: Yes. So we've never seen numbers like this. Increases in deficits in debt in one year. Levels of deficits and debt. Historically, these kind of break boundaries. So these are definitely historic times.

NK: Shocking is a word, staggering is another I've heard many times during this pandemic. Do those words apply to these numbers?

KP: Yeah. Absolutely shocking, staggering and still numbers that are going to take a while to fully grasp. The government talks about building a bridge to a future post-COVID-19 environment. And it's an expensive bridge. And I guess the question is going to be the program that they put in place, at least the fiscal support part, is there good value for money?

NK: So we heard and saw the snapshot today, what's been spent so far and why? But what is the government hinting about future plans to pay these bills?

KP: Yeah, there's almost no hints in the document. It's a gaping hole with respect to the future. I think there's a sense in Canada, but also really around the world, that we're gonna need the federal government to support the recovery, not just to support, you know, the lockdown, the containment measures, but as the economy opens up. There's just so many headwinds in the economic environment, just so much debt at the household level. So much uncertainty for business and with respect to investment and really a global trade environment that is still in lockdown mode. So, again, we need to know, can the government still have the largesse, the fiscal space, to support recovery? And I think the government wasn't ready to release that part of the plan. It's complex, and there is a lot of uncertainty. Those at least the reasons they're giving, but, I mean, the clock is ticking. There is a cost in not having a recovery strategy.

NK: Is it fair, though, to expect some sort of a specific plan when there is so much still unknown and so much is still in flux?

KP: Yeah, again, is fairness the right vantage point? I think from a political leader perspective; I don't think their job necessarily is always fair. This environment is historic. We need a plan to deal with the uncertainties. I think if they argue that there's so much uncertainty, we can't plan. It's easy to plan if there’s no uncertainty. But we really need a plan to deal with the uncertainty. And right now, not knowing what the government's policy responses are going to be in the fall of 2020, and going forward and the recovery of 2021, I mean, it creates some downside economic risks.

NK: It's their job to take the wheel, you’re saying?

KP: Not an easy job.

NK: One of the bond rating agencies has already cut Canada's triple-A status. What's your sense of what might happen if markets start to lose faith in the Trudeau government's ability to navigate what does come next?

KP: Yeah. So, again, that's a strong argument for having some type of fiscal policy recovery strategy in this document. I think people were shocked — the word they used — with respect to the size of the deficit. And no one thought the deficit would be closer to 350 as opposed to 300-billion dollars, which is, you know, numbers in the 16 per cent range in terms of deficit to GDP. No one thought that, you know, that we would really see a debt to GDP ratio federally at 50 per cent. They thought it'd be quite a bit less than that. So then, you know, to present those numbers and say, well, again, we don't have a plan. This is just a fiscal snapshot, this is a tally, I think it's a bit risky from the point of view of a downgrade from Fitch, one of the three major bond rating agencies a little over a week ago, because, again, they were saying we need a credible fiscal plan. But I think the government is just going to argue that it's coming. We’re weeks, maybe a couple months away from the strategy.

NK: When we take a look at what is happening, the turmoil in the U.S., the spots where COVID-19 cases are certainly on the rise. What happens to our economy if the U.S. economy doesn't rebound in the way that people hope?

KP: Yeah. So we are kind of a small, open economy that is, you know, for the most part tied to the U.S. economy. I used to do forecasting at the Department of Finance. That process would start with forecasting, where is the U.S. economy going to go out out? And then we would start doing the Canaidan economic forecast. So, yeah, when we watch news reports and we see the spread of the virus, we see, you know, southern states going into lockdown. We realize this is more economic headwinds with respect to trade. And that's gonna be a major challenge, I think, for our prime minister, the president, the future president of the United States. Like, kind of to make sure that we can continue to trade as much as possible. It's very important for growth going forward.

NK: When we talk about the number, more than 340-billion, was it avoidable, do you think?

KP: For the large part, it was not avoidable. Like, if we did not provide the supports, if we told Canadians to stay at home, if we told businesses to close your doors, and we didn't provide the fiscal supports, you know, this talk of a recession. It's historically large. Would have really been a depression. So, you know, in the document we saw today from the finance minister, they're projecting an annual average decline of about seven per cent. You know, they had scenarios that are kind of buried in the annex that easily take us to well over 10 per cent declines in GDP. So I would say, no, they really had no choice. Would it been, you know, could we have had sort of a fiscal support package of 200 versus 230-billion? You can debate whether or not the scale and the various component pieces of the strategy are right. But it was unavoidable. And and I think international organizations recognize that governments need to provide these support packages.

NK: Down the road, should Canadians, you think, be preparing themselves for austerity?

KP: There's going to be austerity. Like, I've lived long enough. I was at Department of Finance in the ‘80s. And after the recession in the early 80s, we had austerity. After the recession in the early 1990s, we had austerity. After recession of the financial crisis, government deficits ballooned and we had austerity through Prime Minister Harper's government. So I think somewhere down the road there's going to be austerity. It would be a big mistake over the next year or two when we're dealing with double digit unemployment rates to really talk about austerity. I think the focus is going to have to be growing the economy in the short-term. But yeah, a couple years down the road, I think, you know, there needs to be debate. Do we want to live with these higher debt levels? How do we bring them down to more manageable levels? A combination of growth and reduction in spending and maybe even tax increases or tax reform. That conversation is coming, but I think we're probably at least two years away from it.

NK: Mr. Page, thank you for your perspective and your time today.

KP: Thank you very much.

CH: Kevin Page the CEO of the Institute of Fiscal Studies and Democracy at the University of Ottawa.

[Music: Jazz]

Canmore CPR

Guests: Darrell Parker, Corey Adams

CH: In comedy, timing is everything. But that's also true in drama — especially the real-life kind. Late last month, Darrell Parker was hiking near Canmore, Alberta, when his heart stopped. But it so happened that Dr. Corey Adams was also out for a hike at the exact same time — and Dr. Adams is a cardiologist. He performed CPR on Mr. Parker and helped keep him alive until paramedics arrived at the scene. It was an extraordinary coincidence. But it turns out, it wasn't the only time Corey Adams would save Darrell Parker's life. We reached Mr. Parker at his home in Paradise Hill, Saskatchewan — and we reached Dr. Adams in Calgary.

NK: Darrell, I want to start with you. What was the last thing you remember before passing out on the trail?

DARRELL PARKER: I kind of remember doing a bit of the hike. I remember going through where the rock climbers were. But we did complete the whole hike, but it was near the bottom we stopped and took a break and had a bit of a snack. And I don't don't remember any of that. For the whole hike, from what I've been told, I wasn't sweating, I wasn't puffing, I wasn't under any distress or anything. Then after that little bit of a break, we're just going to go back to the vehicles. And so they walked up ahead and I just brought my own pace, I guess. But, no, I don't remember what happened, whether I just got exhausted and layed down or fell down. I don't believe I fell because I didn't have any injuries.

NK: Your heart just stopped?

DP: Kind of looks that way, yeah.

NK: Well, let's bring in the doctor here. Corey, when did you realize that something was seriously wrong?

COREY ADAMS: Well, we were leaving the hike, and the same as Darrell, just a couple of minutes behind. And friends of ours just said that there had been an accident, and then they mentioned that someone was on the side of the road. It looked as though they were unconscious. So my wife and I, as mentioned, were two cars back, and we walked over to help. Then we noticed that Darrell’s colour was significantly off. And the other gentleman said he was just going to start, and he had just started CPR. We then helped move the patient, helped move Darrell up out of the road, continued our CPR, started to check for a pulse. Then, we made sure that someone was calling the EMS, calling the firemen. And I switched in and helped out with CPR. We kept going with his CPR, and we knew that Darrell had no pulse. And the CPR that we started right away sort of restored colour back into Darrell’s face. So then he required a couple more defibrillators. We had to shock his heart to get it back to a rhythm, and that successfully worked. And then, the EMS group arrived. And throughout this whole period, it’s probably 20 or so minutes, into a half-hour, then we were able to intubate Darrell, stabilize him and then the EMS group was able to get him through the Canmore hospital. Within three or four hours, he was getting a diagnostic cast to see if he had any blockages. And he was in our CCU by that afternoon, stabilized.

NK: There are so many layers, Corey, of luck and timing here. Did you ever feel at any point in that 20, 30 minutes that that things could have ended differently?

CA: Yes, for sure. You know, as a cardiac surgeon, we work with our cardiology colleagues, our anesthesia colleagues, there’s the respiratory group, the nurses. So people have arrests a lot of the time, or will have arrests in the hospital, in controlled environments. But to have one as a witness out of hospital cardiac arrest, where maybe no one around, you know, CPR. Maybe there's no physician around to help you. Maybe you can't get the fire trucks to arrive. If all these things hadn't come together, pretty firmly agree that Darrell wouldn't be with us today. It's really rare that this occurred, and it's excellent for him.

NK: Darrell, when you did finally realize what had happened, what you had survived, was luck the thing that came to mind for you. How are you feeling?

DP: Well, certainly, luck is involved. But, you know, everybody I've told the story to, says there's more than luck to that. There's some type of, you know, angels looking after you, that type of thing. Like, it was just that day, that place, the people that were there, everything lined up so well that it saved my life.

NK: Corey, often that's where the story would end. You helped save a life. The whole team came together, as you said. It would be a great outcome, a great story. But then you had another chance to help save Darrell. Take us through what happened?

CA: So Darrell, so when he came to these Foothills Hospital, one of the team members here, the interventional cardiology team, they did a cardiac care. So they looked at Darrell’s coronary artery, and he had multiple blockages in his major heart arteries of his heart. And what we've shown is in people that have multiple blockages like this, their best form to get blood flow back to the heart is coronary bypass surgery. And one of our cardiac surgeons here who had seen him learned of Darrell’s story. And when we presented him at rounds, I was saying how on my past weekend, and on my first hiking trip, I had done CPR on this gentleman. And he said, well, that gentleman is up in the CCU, and has multiple blockages and should undergo heart surgery in order to get more blood flow to his heart muscle. And so I then went up and spoke to Darrell and his wife, about heart surgery. And that's when we all kind of talked about doing it. And then I had volunteered, we talked about me doing it the following next couple days.

NK: And so it ended up being five coronary bypasses. Darrell, what was it like going into that surgery, but also going to that surgery, knowing that it was Corey that was going to be operating on you?

DP: Yeah, you know, I was peaceful. I wasn't worried about what was going on. I knew why my life had been saved once, and I wasn't worried. I was peaceful about going through. And it could be because Corey was there because, you know, I gained a lot of faith in you, that's for sure.

CA: Yeah, no, and I really appreciate that, Darrell. We had talked about that. I was there when Darrell still had the breathing tube in, and I spoke to his wife and son. And they recognized me from the out-of-hospital arrest. And I said, look, I'm also a heart surgeon, and we can do this in the next couple days. I have operating time. And they said we'd like that. And then we discussed what operation Darrell was going to need, and how it should decrease the risk of this ever happening again, give him a great prognosis for a long-term return to work. And we then went ahead. And the surgery itself went fantastic. And his ICU recovery with the group here, he did very well. And I think it was five days, Darrell, or six days that we said that you went home?

DARRELL PARKER’s WIFE: Six days.

DP: Yeah, it was six days, you know, went home quicker than we thought.

CA: It was nice to see. We did heart surgery one day. And the following morning, he was awake, extubated with the breathing tube out, talking to us, feeling okay. It was up on the regular ward, participating in physiotherapy and walking around the next day.

NK: I can hear your wife, Darrell, chiming in in the background. She must be so relieved that you're doing better. So do you think you guys will go on a joint hike or get together anytime soon outside of the hospital setting?

DP: Oh, yeah.

CA: I think we're going to have to, Darrell. I think we're gonna have to do that hike again. I think we'll try to go back again, I think next year.

DP: Yeah, I think that’ll be a good plan.

DARRELL PARKER’s WIFE: For sure.

CA: Yeah, that’ll be really nice!

NK: So lovely to chat with you all, and to give folks out there who are listening some good news. Good news story. I'm glad you're doing okay, Darrell, and speedy recovery. Thank you so much to you both.

DARRELL AND DARELL’S WIFE: Thank you.

CA: Thank you. Bye.

CH: Dr. Corey Adams is a Calgary cardiologist, who administered CPR — and later, heart surgery — to Saskatchewan man Darrell Parker.

[Music: Classic rock]

Part two: Basic income senator, microplastics study

Basic income senator

Guest: Yuen Pau Woo

CH: Ottawa is spending a lot of money right now. As you may have heard earlier on the show, today, Finance Minister Bill Morneau forecast an enormous deficit of nearly 350-billion dollars. But even so, one senator thinks Ottawa should create a new big-ticket plan. Yuen Pau Woo is the head of the Independent Senators' group. He says now is the time for Ottawa to try out a basic income program. We reached Senator Woo in Ottawa.

NK: Senator, this idea of a universal basic income, it has been discussed and debated for years. Why do you think the federal government should do this now?

YUEN PAU WOO: Well, the starting point is the grim economic outlook for the balance of this year and into 2021, we've just had a fiscal snapshot from the finance minister, which suggests that the recovery will be modest and possibly very erratic. That suggests to me that we will need income support of some sort into 2021. And, you know, to the extent that we need special income support, this is an opportunity to pilot a basic income, perhaps at a provincial level, to see if this might be a better way to help Canadians and to reap the benefits that the proponents of basic income has been touting for many years.

NK: Who would get the money, and how much would the basic income be?

YPW: The basic income would go to everyone, but there would be a reduction rate with each extra dollar you earn. And depending on the reduction rate, it would go to fewer or more Canadians. My own preference is that we design a basic income so that the principal objective is to reduce poverty, to take people who are currently below the low-income cutoff, to bring them up to that level or beyond. And also to reduce income inequality. The level of basic income would be in the order of 18, 19-thousand per person, and 24-thousand for a couple.

NK: When would you like to see this happen?

YPW: Well, now's the time to not just talk about it, but to think about designing it. The CERB, you know, the Canada Emergency Response Benefit, will expire on October the 4th. As I said, with the grim economic outlook, it's highly likely we will need some kind of income support. We could fall back on the, you know, the employment insurance program. But we know that there are many gaps in that program. Why don't we put to test basic income, which is said to have benefits that go beyond the monetary value of these payments to individuals?

NK: Is there do you think now the political will and support from the public to actually make it happen this time?

YPW: Well, frankly, no, I don't think there is political will, but there is a lot of public discussion and sympathy for the idea. This is why I have asked not only for a costing, but I also put forward the idea that we need to, first of all, take advantage, if you will, of a situation where income support is going to have to be provided one way or the other. And secondly, to work with provinces that have already openly discussed and encouraged discussion about basic incomes. I'm a realist here, and I'm also mindful of the political resistance to this idea. But this may be a better time than any to put the idea to test.

NK: You mentioned that the costing that you requested. You did ask the parliamentary budget officer to figure out how much this might all cost. The estimate for a six-month program is somewhere between $47-and-a-half-billion to $98-billion. Can the federal government actually afford to keep spending like that?

YPW: Well, the parliamentary budget officer produced the gross costs that you cited between 48 and 90-something-billion. But they also came up with estimates of offsets, fiscal offsets, that would defray the costs of the basic income. And they pegged the offsets as high as 46-billion dollars. Of course, they are political choices to be made as to which offsets to use. But the point here is that a basic income does not and will not be as costly as the gross cost. And to the extent that we have to spend money on income support and, you know, we spent 60, 70 billion dollars on CERB. Most people would say that this is money well spent. If we're going to have to provide this kind of support, why don't we look at the range of options, including basic income?

NK: How you go about convincing people, though, who are already concerned about the money that the government has paid out since this crisis hit, a lot of resistance from people who say it's too open to abuse, that it gives people an incentive not to work. So how do you change that thinking?

YPW: Right. Well, this is not CERB, and that's precisely my point. The government could well decide to simply extend CERB. I don't think they will do that. But if they were to do that, we would be left to the same problem that the critics have raised, which is that there's no incentive to work beyond, well, to earn money beyond the one thousand dollars threshold. The basic income concept that the PB0O has modeled includes a number of scenarios where there would be some benefit reduction, but not 100 per cent benefit reduction. And that, I think, addresses many of the concerns about disincentives to return to work.

NK: You know, the federal government today is facing a lot of criticism about the numbers. It's released its fiscal snapshot, out today. How hopeful are you, given that, that they will hear you out as you push for this plan?

YPW: I don’t underestimate the political challenges. But we all know that major social policy reform happens after the crisis. You know, after the war, and after the depression and so on. This may be the equivalent for Canada and other Western industrialized countries. It will take a leap of faith. This is an opportunity for us to atg the very least conduct an experiment, if you will. It may be a time-limited experiment that can be used to demonstrate if, in fact, the benefits. And I'm talking about benefits that go beyond monetary gain. I'm talking about health benefits, education benefits, social benefits. If these come to pass, then the political consensus on the value of a basic income might come together much more quickly than we had previously thought.

NK: Senator, I thank you for your time.

YPW: Thank you for having me on your show.

NK: Goodbye.

YPW: Bye.

CH: Yuen Pau Woo is an Independent senator from British Columbia. He was in Ottawa. And you can find more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: World music]

Trudeau We response

CH: For Justin Trudeau, there's no "I" in team. And now, there's no "We" either. Last week, the government cancelled plans to have the We Charity administer a nearly-billion-dollar youth program. But that didn't stop the Ethics Commissioner from launching an investigation into how the program was handed to a charity with longstanding links to the Prime Minister and his wife. At that point, Mr. Trudeau was insisting that We had been chosen by the public service. But this morning the Globe and Mail's Marieke Walsh asked Mr. Trudeau if responsibility didn't rest a little higher up the chain.

[sc]

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: The recommendation to use We to get opportunities out for young people was made by the public service. But as a cabinet, we ratify those decisions. It was really important for us to give opportunities to young people, and remains important to give opportunities these young people, through this pandemic, to be able to engage in their communities, support local organizations and make a difference at a time where far too many people, and particularly young people, don't have the opportunities because of this pandemic.

MARIEKE WALSH: And did you recuse yourself from that discussion and the decision at cabinet?

JT: No, I did not.

MW: Why not?

JT: I had long worked on youth issues, both before I got into politics and since I've been in politics as a youth critic, getting young people involved in serving their country, recognizing their desire to build a better Canada, particularly through this time of crisis, is something that I believe in deeply.

[/sc]

CH: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau answering questions from the Globe and Mail's Marieke Walsh in Ottawa.

[Music: Ambient]

Scary vacation

CH: To Sarah Sweet-Fortin, her mother's cottage in New Brunswick feels like a second home. But on her last visit, she felt like an unwelcome stranger. Ms. Sweet-Fortin recently crossed the border from Sherbrooke, Quebec to Beresford in New Brunswick. She took her son and Golden Retriever too, for what was supposed to be a two-week vacation. But she would end up cutting her stay short — after what she describes as a scary, threatening incident with a neighbour while out walking her dog. And now, Ms. Sweet-Fortin says the self-isolation rules for out-of-province visitors need to be made clear. Here's Sarah Sweet-Fortin speaking to CBC News in New Brunswick this week.

[/sc]

CH: That was Sarah Sweet-Fortin speaking to CBC in New Brunswick this week.

[Music: Instrumental]

Microplastics study

Guest: Ariel Smith

CH: It might look like a pristine maritime beach. But over the past two years, researchers in Nova Scotia have found microplastics lurking in the buckets they scoop from the water. That's not exactly a surprise. What is a surprise is the source of major portion of those plastics. Ariel Smith is a researcher with the environmental group Coastal Action, which did the study with the cooperation of the federal government. We reached her in Halifax.

NK: Ms. Smith, where did you find a substantial amount of these micro plastics were coming from?

ARIEL SMITH: Yeah. So we ended up looking at the plastics a little bit closer and found that so much of the microplastics we’re finding are from polypropylene, which often makes up the fishing rope that we find and use for the fishing industry in Atlantic Canada. And also, it can be used in packaging and clothing, the threads that make up our synthetic clothing.

NK: What did you think when you realized during your research that all of these microplastics were coming from fishing gear?

AS: Yeah, so many of the plastics are from fishing gear. We do know in Atlantic Canada and globally that there is a problem with abandoned, lost and discarded fishing gear, also known as ghost gear. So we were anticipating that we were going to find, you know, fragments and threads that link to the fishing industry. I think it was even more overwhelming of how many threads. And the majority kind of across all three locations really pointed to that issue. So it kind of just drives the point home that we need changes on a bigger level to work towards eliminating or preventing and reducing that problem.

NK: And take me through the three locations you were just mentioning?

AS: Costal Action, we're located… I lead the Coastal Marine Team here on the Atlantic coast of Nova Scotia. We're on the South Shore. So we sampled there, in and around the LaHave Islands. It's quite a small community of the South Shore. And then our partners on the other side of the province sampled in the Bay of Fundy, same kind of thing, a small populated area. And then we had the third location is on the western side of Newfoundland. So that's in Corner Brook and the Humber arm.

NK: There was a time when fishing gear did not contain all of this plastic, of course. Is there a way to change what there is now in fishing gear so that it's not shedding so much?

AS: Yeah, there's a lot of work around that globally and in our region as well. So a focus has been on retrieval efforts to get some of that out of the environment itself. And then also kind of changing and having new innovative ways for how we create nets. So there's been a lot of kind of focus on less synthetic fibres for our rope, which actually can create kind of stronger rope as well. And then utilizing, you know, there are a lot of wire nets that were used as well or wooden cages and that kind of thing. So I'm not an expert on the fishing industry. And there are a lot of people that are working on that, that have a lot of amazing ideas and research that kind of coincide with it. But those kind of innovative technologies and different strategies that can be used are in action right now.

NK: It's really striking what you said just a moment ago, that these are not heavily populated areas. But what you're seeing in the water is a heavy population of these microplastics. It's more than just a mess, though, is what you're saying. There are ecological impacts potentially as well, am I right?

AS: Yeah, correct. So it's not just an aesthetic problem or something that we might have to, you know, just wade through eventually. But really, where we're seeing that this can impact aquatic and marine species from the small fish up to the whales. And of course, we're at the top of that true chain. So there are implications and impacts that could be impacting our human health. A lot of that research is being done right now on the chemical implications that microplastics can have. There are also physical problems. So a fish can very easily kind of eat or maybe inadvertently bring this microplastic into its gills, and then, you know, it ends up in their gut, and they no longer have the space to have proper nutrition coming to their stomach. So those physical implications. And then also, over time, the toxicity, plastics have chemicals. And, you know, they can also adsorb or collect other chemicals in an environment. So that has a lot of kind of scary implications for what can happen within a species, but also across the food chain over time.

NK: Is there any way to deal with the microplastics already in the water? Or is it just a fact of life?

AS: Yeah, unfortunately, even on the macro-level of plastic pollution, our efforts really shouldn't be necessarily focused on going out there and collecting what is in the environment already. Our best bet is really to shut off the tap or at least close the tap a little bit on the amount of plastics we have infiltrating our environment.

NK: What's been the response from fishermen in terms of changing their gear?

AS: Yeah, fishers actually have been a huge part of the solution. So they are bringing maybe challenges or impediments that they have on a daily basis in terms of how to bring gear ashore, how they can better retrieve gear. And all of those issues are being brought to light. Also, there may be a few individuals with pushback, and there are some issues that need to be overcome. I do think that they're an ally in this, and they are super important in being a part of the solution.

NK: What's the next stage of your research?

AS: So from here, we're communicating the information, but we're really working on training other folks like ourselves, small community-based organizations, as well as Indigenous groups, governments, to take on the task of collecting more data so that we can keep figuring out what are the best solutions for different locations. It is great that we kind of have this baseline understanding, but in order to really make strong recommendations for policy and elimination on the municipal and provincial and federal levels, we need more data in Atlantic Canada, and across the country.

NK: More work to come. Ariel Smith, thank you so much for your time.

AS: Thank you.

CH: Ariel Smith is a researcher with the environmental group Coastal Action. We reached her in Halifax.

[Music: Classic guitar riff]

Sally the Salad Robot

CH: You try to make "healthy choices. And in the past it was ... simpler. At lunch, you could stare warmly at all the stuff you actually wanted to eat. Until your gaze settled coldly on little chips of ice, at a salad bar. There, a rainbow of customizable options awaited you. And yes, the delicate plexiglass sneeze guard reliably conjured images of just the thing it's meant to protect against. But you were making a healthy choice, and you were not going to contemplate the germ-laden mist that may or may not have settled onto the slightly dry, or strangely wet, carrot sticks. And, ooo! Stuffed grape leaves! Well, salad bars are almost certain to be among the casualties of pandemic times. But that doesn't mean you'll be left picking unwanted items off your pre-packed greens. Because of machines. Namely, a 750-pound salad robot named Sally. The germ-free germ of an idea seems to have originated pre-pandemic. But now that the germaphobes are... all of us, the makers of Sally just seem prescient. You just tell Sally what you want and she spits out your custom-made salad, safely spit-free. And you can finish your meal by reading Sally's report on exactly how healthy your choices have truly been. No dressing down, I'm sure. Just helpful information that tired old germ-laden salad bar just couldn't offer. So, salad bars, it's been a slice. Keep shreddin'. And just, lettuce know if you need anything, ok?

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

July 08, 2020 Episode Transcript

More Stories Like This