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The AIH Transcript for June 26, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I’m Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CO: Black and blue, an off-duty Toronto police officer is convicted of assaulting a black teenager in an attack that lost the young man his eye. His lawyer tells us there are still many unanswered questions about what happened that night.

CH: Wheel of fortune. Canadian artist Wayne Ngan made his name as a ceramics artist, but his daughter tells us her late dad was more than a potter. He was a painter, a sculptor, a survivor, and her own creative inspiration.

CO: No free ride. The Supreme Court has shut down Uber’s latest attempt to block a class-action suit by its drivers. We hear from one driver who is buckled in and ready for a long fight.

CH: Survival of the fishes. Researchers have found that carp eggs can hatch after being eaten and excreted by ducks. We reached the ecologist whose willingness to focus on feces led to new discoveries about both species.

CO: Suffice it to say; it's in tents. Sisters in self-quarantine have been camping out for two weeks in the backyard of their family home in New Brunswick. They're waiting to give their gravely ill dad a hug.

CH: And... Open Michael night. To mark his imminent final show as the host of “The Sunday Edition”, we play a classic interview by our own former host, Michael Enright. A conversation with a violin maestro that will pluck at your heartstrings.

CH: As It Happens, the Friday edition. Radio that strives to be in the right place at the right time.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Dafonte Miller beating trial, SCC Uber decision, Michael Enright

Dafonte Miller beating trial

Guest: Julian Falconer

CH: Three years ago, an off-duty police officer beat Dafonte Miller so badly that he lost an eye. And today, a Toronto judge convicted that officer, Michael Theriault, of assaulting the Whitby, Ontario teenager. Mr. Theriault and his brother Christian told the court they caught Mr. Miller breaking into their parents' vehicle and they were trying to apprehend him. They also claimed self-defence, saying Mr. Miller attacked them, and they feared for their lives. While the judge questioned part of the brothers' evidence, he acquitted both of them of aggravated assault and obstruction of justice. Dafonte Miller addressed the judge's decision in a video statement.

CO: Right. He saw that it probably happened. I was listening to that. Why did he then conclude that he could only convict Michael Theriault, and not his brother, on assault and not the other charges?

JF: A conviction in a criminal court requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt, that it probably happened isn't good enough. And the swirl and mix up of information in part comes from this idea in the justice system that still exists in police excessive force cases that it's okay to put the victim on trial. And that's exactly what happened here. You get these highly-resourced defences. And I have a great deal of respect for the defence lawyers. But these cases are very experienced, very expensive defence lawyers, because that's what police excessive force cases are about. And the victim ends up getting completely revictimized. We haven't gotten all the way in sexual assault cases, but we certainly have recognized as a society in 2020 that we have to work hard at re-traumatizing complainants. We haven't figured that out in police violence cases.

CO: But did Dafonte Miller, is there evidence that he knew that the pursuer, one of the pursuers, that night was a police officer?

JF: To the contrary. The judge found that he was running out of fear, that he was being chased down. I mean, we have a situation where he's knocking on doors, looking for help. It's Defonte Miller that calls 9-1-1. The absolutely horrific injuries, including a portion of his left eye being on the hood of the car. Handcuffs are being applied to a youth, who basically is beaten within an inch of his life. Then there's no injuries sustained by the Theriault brothers. But magically, Durham and Toronto police pursue what amounts to six different criminal offences against Defonte Miller. That happened in December 2016. Today, in June 2020, it's Constable Mike Theriault that is convicted of a criminal offence. And so that's why Defonte Miller and I see it as an important step forward. And he points something out that I think is important to remember, Carol. Many racialized victims of police violence don't have the resources and end up actually themselves being convicted as the ordinary course in these kinds of situations. So as Defonte points out, he recognizes this is a step forward.

CO: Did the judge recognize that this assault was racially motivated?

JF: I think there is very little question that the way the judge commences his reasons says it all. He foreshadows his views on that by saying, you know, I'm not here to determine the question of would it have been different if the person on top had been a Black man without shoes on beating on a white individual below him? I'm not here to decide that. But of course, that form of foreshadowing tells you precisely what he thought. And we've called for a royal commission of inquiry. We're calling on the federal government to initiate an inquiry into the beatings and killings of racialized and Indigenous people in police custody because enough is enough. This isn't sort of “flavour of the month”. Of course, the Floyd case has galvanized a lot of people. But to be honest, Carol, you know, I've sadly been at it for 30 years. And I can say as a human rights lawyer who puts that time in the trenches. It is high time we recognize that this is truly a systemic problem. And that there’s a lot of common features that I see time and again in terms of these police violence cases.

CO: What now happens for Defonte Miller? We know that there has to be a sentencing and there’ll probably be appeals for Michael Theriault. But what now happens with Mr. Miller?

JF: The sentencing is, of course, important. And the date hasn't been set yet. But the judge referred to today the fact that a part of the sentencing process is that Defonte Miller and his family are entitled to file victim impact statements where they're heard about how this has affected them. And, you know, we're not talking minor. We're talking about a youth who no longer has his left eye, among other things. And the terror and the terror he felt that night at the hands of police. But also, there is a civil suit, and the judge's findings, and this is a legal technical point for law geeks, but the judge kept finding things probably happened. And I can tell you, that's the exact standard in the civil case. I want you to think about O.J. Simpson. It didn't do it in the criminal court. But the plaintiffs in the O.J. Simpson case were very successful in their lawsuit. And the judge's findings that these things probably happened is precisely the civil standard. So this is by no means over.

CO: And just finally, how is he doing?

JF: He impresses me to no end. He's grown a lot from the time he was 19 to today; he's now 22.

CO: And how is he dealing with the injuries? He hasn't got sight in an eye, and he still has some trauma, I guess?

JF: He does have trauma, but he's got tremendous support from his family. He is very resolved. He's an impressive young man. And I think today, if anybody watched the press conference of his, how articulate he is and how strong he is. He is not letting this change who he is. And in fact, he talks about how he continues to view police in a way that he understands has to be productive in terms of understanding they’re not all the same and that there's good ones. So actually I'm optimistic in terms of his growth.

CO: We will leave it there. Mr. Falconer, thank you.

JF: Pleasure.

CH: Julian Falconer is the lawyer for Dafonte Miller. Today a Toronto judge convicted an off duty police officer of assaulting Mr. Miller in 2016.

SCC Uber decision

Guest: Earla Phillips

CH: The destination is still a ways off. But, legally speaking, the pedal is still to the metal. The Supreme Court of Canada has shut down Uber's latest bid to block a proposed class-action suit. The lawsuit would provide Uber drivers with a minimum wage, vacation pay, and other protections. The company had argued that Canadian courts couldn't even hear the case, because of a section in the agreement its drivers have to sign. It says that disputes with Uber are supposed to be resolved by an arbitrator in the Netherlands — which costs drivers a hefty price to access. But Canada's top court didn't buy that. And so the stage is set for what could be a 400-million-dollar suit. Earla Phillips has been an Uber driver for five years. We reached her in Toronto.

[Music: funky movie soundtrack]

Michael Enright

CH: Alan Maitland, dealing with a host who wouldn't stop messing with the "Echo" button: Michael Enright. Michael's voice has been echoing from your radio more than usual over the past few months. We've been pulling great, usually odd stories from the As It Happens archives, and he was in the interviewer's chair for a lot of them — he co-hosted this program from 1987 to 1997. And of course, CBC listeners have been hearing his voice every weekend, as he's hosted "The Sunday Edition" — to which he's brought his signature incisiveness, sensitivity, and inability to understand science or math. But after 20 years, this Sunday's program will be his last as host. So tonight, we're paying our own tribute to Michael. We're going back to February of 1991. The Gulf War had been raging for five months. And one night, while the Israeli Philharmonic Orchestra was playing a concert in Jerusalem, air raid sirens went off. The players walked offstage. And then violinist Isaac Stern walked back on. Here's Michael's conversation with Mr. Stern.

[sc]

ME: Right.

IS: And I walked offstage and I’m completely overwrought, as was the musicians. I was very much overcome by the whole circumstance. Then the free call came in, and we continued the concert.

ME: Did you purposely pick a Bach piece to calm the audience down, instead of Paganini or?

IS: Exactly that. Because it's contemplative, quiet music. And it's music that, as so much music has, seen a lot of pain and a lot of happiness and a lot of wars and revolutions. And it's continued. And it lasted about as long as I had figured would be the time from the fall of the bomb, which apparently they heard in the middle of while I was playing. They heard the explosions when bomb was hit.

ME: Gosh! Weren't you frightened yourself on stage?

IS: No, not at all.

ME: You weren't?

IS: Not for a moment. Fear never entered my head. It was just... It is very hard to explain. And I hope it is understood. There are very few occasions when you can really feel useful and needed. And I was very grateful that I was there, and that I could be useful, and that they felt that was needed.

ME: When you finished playing, I can imagine the reaction of the audience.

IS: Well [chuckling], I walked off stage and, you know, I judged the applause a little bit and just walked off. Well, when we came back on, [laughing] then there was a roar.

ME: They must have gone crazy?

IS: They did. They stood up, and they were happy. Of course, I didn't have time to sit around and savor it because I let the orchestra finish and go home to Tel Aviv. I continued the concert with a young Israeli pianist, very gifted. And then I said I must go because my plane is leaving at nine, and this was already five-after-eight [ME chuckles]. I had to get to the airport, and Zubin Mehta was driving me, and my luggage was being taken care of by someone else. I grabbed what I had with me, clothes and the fiddle. We ran for the car and fled. I think we flew low, almost as fast as a missile from the hall to Ben Gurion Airport, arriving 20 minutes before the departure of the flight.

ME: Mr. Stern, is it in your mind that it was important for you to be there at that moment and to do what you did?

IS: Because it was something I felt that was vital for a continuation of faith in what man can do beautifully and can do well. We will have and are going through as we speak now on your program, we're seeing terrifying destruction, necessities of it we will not go into. And I would hope that it will end as quickly and as painlessly as possible for the allies involved and for the poor civilians involved on the other side. And that, hopefully, hopefully, somewhere down the road, those who are in charge of decisions and political life will learn that in the name of religion, killing is not enough, that respect for peoples on all sides is a necessity. And if this war has not brought it more clearly into focus than ever before, then I don't know what will.

ME: Maestro Stern, thank you so much.

IS: Thank you for asking me. Bye.

ME: Goodbye

[/sc]

CH: From 1991, Michael Enright's conversation with the late violin virtuoso, Isaac Stern. Listen on Sunday for Michael's last show as the host of "The Sunday Edition" -- when he'll interview Margaret Atwood, Cindy Blackstock, and others, and be interviewed by Matt Galloway. Plus he'll talk to Robert Harris about music, including the enduring appeal of Dolly Parton.

Wayne Ngan obit

Guest: Gailan Ngan

CH: Wayne Ngan's ceramics are stunning. And he was stunningly prolific. The celebrated potter threw seemingly countless clay vessels in his studio on B.C.'s Hornby Island. Hornby was his home for more than fifty years, after he left China as a teenager. It's where he died this month of lymphoma. He was 83. Mr. Ngan was one of Canada's most celebrated ceramic artists. But he was also, simply, an artist. And speaking with the CBC in 1990, he said he preferred not to use any particular label.

WAYNE NGAN: it’s so important to allow the universe come to you, enable you to participate everything you wish or you want to do in life. So I like to do all kinds of thing in art because I knew I am an artist. And I’m just doing thing which relate to my life and the beach around me and the rocks, the nature. I feel everything I touch is my creation.

GAILAN NGAN: Thank you.

GN: Yeah, it's a different voice. You know, it's not a voice I'm used to. So it is, yeah, that I would have been around 20 years old. So, yeah, it's a different, different era for sure.

CO: How does what he has to say, how does it speak to your father's philosophy as an artist?

GN: I think he was very much a person who looked at things a bit differently. And for him, you know, like, you know, nature was very much a big part of his life. And I think, you know, a lot of people have reminisced about how he would, you know, take you through his garden and look, you know, let's see how the light comes through a leaf, you know, or sometimes it was like a seed pod. And, you know, like he’d even make a pot, you know, from the form of a seed pod. And then he would, you know, riff on that and make it into something else. But I think nature was where he got most of his ideas.

CO: And he found quite a place to be in nature, didn't he, on Hornby Island, where he had his studio?

GN: Yes. I mean, anybody who's been there, it's, you know, a gulf Island. And it's, you know, there's animals, you know, wildlife everywhere, birds, trees, the ocean. I've been spending quite a bit of time at his place, and he has this window, this circular. And, you know, the ocean and the sky is constantly changing throughout the day and night. So I've seen it kind of through his eyes now. And I can see this dynamic of the change, you know? There's little changes, but they're significant in one way.

CO: I understand, though, his studio was quite extraordinary. Can you describe it for us?

GN: Well, he designed it himself, the newest studio that he built in the mid-80s. And it’s, you know, it's almost 5,000 square foot of house and home. And it's quite beautiful. It's kind of lots of windows and skylights and kind of clerestory windows as well. And then there's very much know the indoor/outdoor being similar and kind of flowing through it. But, you know, it's not right on the edge of a cliff overlooking the ocean.

CO: My gosh! And I understand it’s quite a legendary wood fired kiln he had for his ceramics. Can you describe that?

GN: Yeah, he took it down a while ago, but it was right in the middle of that kind of building complex — indoors, crazy. But it was, you know, is this quite a large wood kilm You know, it's almost like having a dragon in your house. I don't know the feng shui was the best,you know? [both laugh] Once, you know, he did have to call the fire department. And so he was well-known to the fire department, yeah.

CO: [laughing] Oh dear! Okay. Do you have a favorite piece of this?

GN: Well, [chuckle] he was prolific, so I have many favorite pieces. I think the more crazy they went in terms of the ceramic vessels, I kind of like those the most. But I think the beauty about ceramics and pottery is that it is something that is, you know, everyday use as well as being a sculpture or art. And I think lots of artists loved his work because of that. They love pottery. Artists love pottery. [laughing]

CO: And you love pottery. You're a ceramic artist yourself. Did you grow up at the wheel with your dad?

GN: Yes. So pretty much. I grew up in a pottery studio. And I learned a lot, but I didn't actually start throwing till I was 19 or 20. But by then, I was you know, I knew how to do all the other things, except to throw. And then throwing was a very fast learning curve for me.

CO: So we've talked about your dad's work and what he was like and his philosophy. But what was he like as a dad?

GN: I think [awkward laughing] he was a good provider, but he was very absorbed in his own work. So sometimes, you know, we'd have to cook our own dinner, you know, kind of a thing as teenagers. [hearty laughter] But he was always there for you if you needed help, yes.

CO: Did he keep his connection with China?

GN: Yes, he did. And more in the later years, actually, he was very close to his nieces and nephew.

CO: But he came in his teens, right?

GN: Yes.

CO: Do you know much about his experiences that shaped him as he came to Canada?

GN: Yeah, I mean I see him as really, you know, he's an artist, but he was also a survivor immigrant. And he came young, like 13, 14 years old to Vancouver. But it was actually he was coming to live with his grandfather, who was a sawyer at a shingle mill on Mitchell Island. And his grandfather was not a father, you know? So I think it was quite hellish, his early few years. But I say survivor also because he was able to make connections with almost everybody. He knew how to meet people and connect. And it's I find amazing, you know, coming without language. And, you know, in the 1950s, I can't imagine the racism he endured.

CO: But he ended up in the most beautiful place on Hornby Island. And I know you and your sister and your children joined him for these last few weeks. What was it like for you to be able to spend that time with him in the place you loved so much?

GN: Yeah, I mean, he was mostly in Vancouver in the last year or so, two years and. And then, you know, COVID hit, and we all ended up on Hornby because we wanted to be together. We didn't want to be you know, it was more space for all of us. So my dad has three grandsons. Mine is eleven. My sister, Goya's, are 12 and 15. And it's pretty special time. And it's also neat to see my dad and his grandsons. It's quite striking. They like to do stuff. They like to try out new things, like, for instance, they built the forge in the parking lot, you know, with a shopvac attached with a blower on, So it just got really hot. You know, I mean, he did some dangerous things, I think. But they just love creating stuff.

CO: Gailan, we'll leave it there. And I appreciate you telling this about your dad today.

GN: Thank you.

CO: Okay, bye-bye.

GN: Bye.

CH: Gailan Ngan is the daughter of Canadian artist and potter, Wayne Ngan. We reached her in Comox, B.C. And you can find more on this story, and see some of Mr. Ngan’s work, on our webpage: www.cbc.ca/aih.

Tent sisters

RC: This is just so remarkable.

CM: [crying] Sorry.

RC: I can understand this. I can actually not imagine.

CM: [said through tears] Our father is the most amazing man I've ever met. He's just such a wonderful soul and such a wonderful human.

LM: As a child, you know, our father taught us to be a global citizen and to give our best to humanity and to serve humanity. And all of this graciousness that we have, we got from my father. [crying] So the sacrifice to be outside is nothing. It’s just not being able to just give him a hug at the end of the day.

[/sc]

CH: Carmen and Lara Messerlian talking to the CBC's Rachel Cave today. Their self-isolation is just about up — so that hug is coming very soon.

Duck fish eggs study

Guest: Adam Lovas-Kiss

CH: One year ago — almost to the day — we told you the story about one successful killifish egg. The egg managed to survive being eaten by a swan, travel all the way through the swan's digestive system, and hatch — after it was excreted. Well, it turns out it's not just killifish eggs who can survive the arduous journey through a bird's gut. Researchers in Hungary have discovered that two types of carp eggs have hatched after being eaten and pooped out by Mallards. The team published its results this week in the journal, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Adam Lovas-Kiss is the lead author. He's an ecologist with the Wetland Ecology Research Group at the Centre for Ecological Research in Hungary. We reached him in Debrecen, Hungary.

ADAM LOVAS-KISS: It's a long story, but in short, in the first time when we go to the field, we see fields completely wet, and you can find temporary wetlands in Hungary. And these are very isolated sorts of lakes. We found basically small fishes inside these. A lot of people found fishes inside these temporary wetlands. And this is what we were thinking, like how these fishes can actually come here? And how they can actually be dispersed?

CO: It was a mystery to find out how fish turn up in ponds and bodies of water where they don’t connect with anything else. So why did you look at these particular kinds of carp? They common carp, I guess, and Prussian carp.

ALK: Firstly, because there was this 2019 study, which used the annual killifish. But we know these annual fishes has a very, very protected fish eggs. You can't actually generalize it for more species, only for annual killifish eggs. So we try to choose species which can represent talos fish species, which is more like a jelly-like, not so protected eggs.

CO: Right. Just to sum it up because we've done that story on the killifish, and how a single egg from a killifish had survived the digestive track of a swan in Brazil. But you thought that was... You wanted to try a more delicate egg. And so you went for these carp. So what did you find? How lucky were these eggs [chuckling] as they made it through the system?

ALK: Twelve fish eggs from both of the species which actually survived, living embryo were inside them. But when we were actually collecting the poop, and we saw the first fish eggs appearing, and we were very, very excited. It was like searching for a treasure during the night.

CO: And finding like fish eggs in poop. [laughing] But how many eggs did you feed these mallards?

ALK: Overall, we fed like 500 for eight mallards.

CO: How many embryos survived through that acidic system of a duck?

ALK: Overall, twelve. So it's a low number if you compare to the overall number we fed. But it's still very important. Because if you think about it, there are millions of ducks moving around, for example, in the U.S. or in North America and even in Europe because we use the mallards. And I know exactly there are almost two million mallards moving during the migration. And if you think that, I mean, this is a low number. I mean, the living embryos. But if you think that it can happen every year during the migration, and one carp can lay more than 100-thousand egg. And they're on numerous numbers of carps. So it can happen very often.

CO: Okay, but how many of those embryos that survived actually became fish?

ALK: Two Prussian carp and one carp.

CO: And so you think that's a significant enough number that that could actually be spreading this invasive species through the mallard?

ALK: I think so, because if the duck starts to feed during the spawning time on fish eggs and there won't be only 500 eggs. I mean, the mallard will be totally full with eggs. And because it's a very nutritious protein source for them, so they will just munching on them all the time. If they find the spawning area, they will definitely find them.

CO: Well, you know, the conservationists are trying to find ways to limit the spread of these kinds of fish. So there's nothing you could really do to stop the mallards being able to disseminate these fish to wider areas, is there?

ALK: It's a hard question. So I think overall, the humans are the problem because they moved this fish to America, for example, and even to Hungary, if you think about the Prussian. So basically, I think we cannot stop them. But still, humans are the main problem because they are, I think, they spread more fish eggs or the fish compared to the mallards, if we try to compare the mallards and the humans.

CO: All right, we'll leave it there, Adam, and thank you for telling us about your study.

ALK Thank you so much.

CO: Bye.

ALK: Bye.

CH: Adam Lovas-Kiss is an ecologist with the Wetland Ecology Research Group at the Centre for Ecological Research in Hungary. We reached him in Debrecen, Hungary.

Liverpool champions

Part three: Encore: Scotty Bowman and Ken Dryden

CH: The NHL season may be hold... but this week, hockey fans were able to engage in one time-honoured tradition. On Wednesday, the Hockey Hall of Fame announced this year's class of six inductees. They include former Calgary Flames captain Jarome Iginla, Olympic gold medalist Kim St-Pierre, and longtime NHL executive Ken Holland. They won't be inducted until at least November. But when they are, they'll be in good company, joining greats like Bobby Orr, Maurice Richard, Mario Lemieux — and coach Scotty Bowman. Growing up outside Montreal, Mr. Bowman dreamed of playing in the NHL. But he wound up making his mark behind the bench. In 1973, he won his first Stanley Cup as the coach of the Montreal Canadiens, Over the next three decades, he would win eight more — making Scotty Bowman the winningest NHL coach of all time. Last fall, the 86-year-old was profiled by his former goaltender Ken Dryden, in the book "Scotty: A Hockey Life Like No Other." Mr. Dryden and Mr. Bowman joined Carol in the As It Happens studio to talk about life behind the bench -- and on the ice. Here's an encore presentation of their conversation.

CO: Wow! I can't believe I'm sitting here in the As It Happens studio with two legends -- Scotty Bowman and Ken Dryden. Welcome to this show and to the studio.

BOTH: [Both say thanks]

CO: I have to say, Scotty, you look terrific. And Ken you look the same. I mean, you've had all these careers. I just learned now you hosted As It Happens.

KEN DRYDEN: Yeah, I think I was two or three nights and it was during the time of Jimmy Hoffa's disappearance.

CO: We must have had to bring you in for that for some mysterious reason.

KD: Yeah. I don't know. I mean I enjoyed doing it. I'm not sure the audience enjoyed it. But anyway.

CO: But then you were a lawyer. You were an MP. You were a cabinet minister. You've written books. And there is that goalie thing I guess you did at some point, right, sort of way back.

KD: Well, it was pretty nice to do it with the other person across the table from you. And when you have the best coach and surrounded by the best players, it's pretty nice to be a goalie.

CO: But you were a great goalie. And we all know that. Scotty knows that. I want to begin by taking you and our listeners back to Game 5 of the 2002 Stanley Cup finals.

SOUNDCLIP

[Crowd cheering]

ANNOUNCER 1: Here come the Hurricanes -- the shot...

ANNOUNCER 2: Deflected wide of the net. Shanahan. Empty net. Scores! Shanahan does it!

[Crowd cheers loudly]

CO: Wow. The empty neter at Game 5 of the 2002 Stanley Cup. What's it like for you to hear that again 17-years-later?

SCOTTY BOWMAN: It's still the same. You know, when you're nursing a one goal lead and you're in the Stanley Cup finals and you can think of the ending, but that empty net goal, I think there was a half a minute to go so that was probably the biggest the relief you ever had that year. Because I knew that I was not going to be coaching after the season and to go out and have the team win the Stanley Cup it makes it a lot easier.

CO: Yeah, it's just a very very exciting moment. And you know, Scotty Bowman nine Stanley Cups coach.14 Stanley Cups would include your stint in management. And we could just keep giving the numbers for how many things you have done which makes you the greatest hockey coach ever. And that's why I think Ken Dryden -- you wanted to write this book about Scotty Bowman. Was it the numbers? Was it the stats? Or was it something else that led you Ken?

KD: It was that. But it was also -- I knew that Scotty had lived a hockey life that was absolutely unlike anyone else ever had and ever will again. Born in Verdun in 1933, started listening to games on radio. Then when he was recruited to play for a minor hockey team sponsored by the Montreal Canadiens, the big perk was to get a standing room pass to the Forum. And so from say, 1947 or so on Saturday nights, I mean you take the 58 bus up to the Forum, you watch the games and you see "The Rocket" in his prime. You see the Detroit Red Wings starting to become great. You see Gordie Howe at age 17. Then it's Ted Lindsay. And Red Kelly. And see Terry Sawchuk emerge. And the first really great team in NHL history, the Detroit Red Wings -- Scotty's watching it. Then he starts to get more involved with the Canadiens. And he's there watching a team that still has the NHL record of winning five cups in a row from 1956 until 1960. And he's there. After that you know, he's there. He's there. He's there. And he's not only there, he's behind the bench. He's in the dressing room. He's coaching the best. He's coaching against the best. Year after year after year and right up to the present where his son, Stan, is a two-time Stanley Cup winning general manager of the Chicago Blackhawks. And Scotty is an advisor there. He watches and he never stops watching and he never stops learning. That's why.

CO: And what's so interesting Scotty -- your face as Ken gives that list of all the reasons why you became so legendary, because you watched...and you didn't just watched like we watch. You studied it, didn't you? You studied all those players. When you were in the Forum -- even in those days when you were just a kid watching to see what made them magic, right?

SB: Yeah, I would say that's where I got the passion for hockey like any young person growing up in Canada. And in those days, you know, hockey was your life. I was fortunate because I was able to watch the NHL. I was able to watch the best. And you learn by watching. And I started coaching at a very young age and I coached a lot of people my same age. So I was never like an older person coaching younger kids. And I think that kind of helps you -- you get to know everybody. Coaching is something that is a process. And I started right at the bottom. And that's where you have to start.

CO: But there's a curious detail, a fact that Ken reports in this book, which maybe other people know. But you were in Montreal -- Verdun. Everyone is talking. Every boy your age, everybody's talking hockey. You were a fan of the Boston Bruins. What's that all about?

SB: I was able to get the radio station and the announcer was Frank Ryan. I was able to listen to the games, but I had to go to bed at the end of the first period or second period sometimes. And I guess I got attracted to the game because of the radio. But the Boston Bruins -- they were a dynasty at that time and they won the Cup in I think it was 1939, 1941. And then the wartime came -- it was quite a story. I did meet some of the people on that team, especially the late Milt Schmidt. I guess getting attracted to a winning team is always pretty attractive for anybody.

CO: The Boston Bruins is always my father's favorite team. And we're in Winnipeg. So I think that they captured a lot of hearts. We have to go back to Maurice "Rocket" Richard. Because you mentioned it. And I know you watched him closely. We have some more tape we want to play. Richard missed the playoffs, as you know, in 1955 because he hit a linesman and was suspended by NHL President Clarence Campbell. And that led to the "Richard riots" as you know. And we are just going to play a bit of that tape and get you both to respond to it.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNOUNCER: The main entrance of the Forum on Saint-Catherine St -- a huge crowd of people has assembled here. Number in hundreds -- in the thousands. As they cheer -- as the police try to push them back. The police are now forming a line and pushing the crowd back.

[Crowd shouting]

CO: I think "Down with Campbell" was the last thing we heard there. Scotty do you remember that?

SB: I was at the game. March 17th. I had my standing room pass. And I think that was the year I was starting to coach a junior B team. I was at the game and I was standing behind the blue sections in the end zone. And actually right below me was the seats where the president the late Clarence Campbell was with his wife. And Detroit took I think it was at least two or three goal lead. It was a very important game for both teams because it was near the end of the season. There was only a handful of games left. And the game was called at the end of the first or second period -- it might have been the second. But they just couldn't handle -- the tear gas bombs were going off and they had to forfeit the game. And the win allowed Detroit to move into first place. The sad part for Montreal was Maurice Richard was leading the league in scoring and he never won the scoring title and he lost that that year. And they played the seventh game and lost it in Detroit. And he didn't have a home ice advantage and he got suspended, like you mentioned, for the rest of the regular season, plus the playoffs. And it was a tough scene. I don't know how I did it, but I ended up walking the corridors. And I think it was the son of the coach of the Canadiens at the time was Dick Irvin -- Dick Irvin Junior -- who later became quite a broadcaster, as you know. And I ended up in the Canadiens dressing room. I mean you had to go somewhere. And they rioted on the streets. I don't recall what I did after the game. I mean I didn't have a car or anything like that, but I got home. But it was a terrible time. I mean, we had blocks and blocks of damage done to them, to the streets in St. Catherine Street. But it was a tough memory.

CO: Do you remember it Ken?

KD: I have no firsthand memory of it.

CO: But it was a legendary time.

KD: And there are a lot of Quebeckers who became very well-known and prominent and influential in the 1970s in the independence movement that would trace some of their real beginnings, of their passion to that time.

CO: I have in studio with me here in Toronto, Scotty Bowman -- hockey coach extraordinaire -- who is the subject of a new book by Ken Dryden, who is also in the studio with me. The book is "Scotty: A Hockey Life Like No Other." And Ken, I want to ask you about the way you structured this because it's very interesting that you would get him to pick in his view the best eight NHL teams of all time. And not just the teams, but the year -- the season that they were the best. And then actually put a competition together between those teams. Why did you decide to do it that way?

KD: Because I wanted to make Scotty a coach again. I think that part of the reason why there hasn't been a book really about Scotty before is that usually sports books and books from coaches are about stories. And they're after dinner speaker stories. And Scotty doesn't experience in stories. He doesn't really think in stories. He's too practical. He's a coach. And so you don't find an answer in a story. You know that's out of the past. He's got to respond to the moment. And so instead of focusing on what he's less comfortable with -- put him back into a place where he is most comfortable. Make him a coach. And so then to pick those top eight teams, because again he's seen them all, you know, up close entirely. But then set them against each other. I mean what easily happens when you're telling stories is 'This playe...oh, he's great. And great. Great. Great. Great.' Well, not everybody's great. Some are a little greater than others. And "The Rocket" didn't score every game. Gordie Howe was lousy at times. Bobby Orr's teams lost often. And so what happened then? What is it that you as a coach would do to understand those players to bring out the best -- but at the same time, if you were coaching against them, what would you do? How would you defeat them? So let's have matchups. And ahead of time, I didn't want to know who he was going to pick. But then I don't want to know who's going to win. You know, ahead of time. I want to be able to ask you questions about each series as it's happening, as if you're behind both benches. And the thing that was really interesting through it is that, again, we're talking about these teams initially, and I'm trying to guess as to who he's likely, you know, selecting here and who's going to win these series. And I was right about 60 percent of the time.

CO: Well, you warned the reader to say, don't flip to the back and find out who won. And of course I did. And if you hadn't said that, I wouldn't have done it Ken. You just set that up. But we are not going to tell our listeners who does win this series because it is fun to get there. But were you at all concerned that Scotty wouldn't choose your team, that he wouldn't choose the magic 1976-77 season with the Montreal Canadiens when you were the goalie and he was the coach? Did you have a moment when you thought he wasn't going to choose that one?

KD: Absolutely. Like I wasn't sure. I thought that that team would be one of the eight. After that, I didn't know. And so we went chronologically through the years. You know through the teams of the 40s, 50s, 60s, and then 70s. And we skipped -- I mean it was because of me, wasn't because of Scotty. We went then to the 80s, 90s, and up to the present. I didn't want to talk about our team at that point. I mean at a certain point you know you develop a stake in what it is you've done and you're proud of what has happened and you don't want judgment cast on what it is you've done. And it's easy to kind of -- it's not easy, but it's easier to dismiss somebody else's judgment. It's pretty difficult to dismiss what Scotty says and thinks about the team and about me.

CO: Why did you do that? Because you couldn't say no to Ken?

SB: Well, no. What we basically -- or what I did, I saw these teams play in person -- a lot of them. And then to back it up, it wasn't like I picked a favorite team. I had a system. So it wasn't that difficult. Once you backed it up with what you saw...

CO: It wasn't based on emotions, or feelings or your gut...

SB: No.

CO: It was about the stats and numbers.

SB: Yeah. Like analytics are big now. And I mean the standings you go by the standings, we know that. So you know the playoff records are different now than they are then because they play more games now. So it was a lot of fun rehearsing. And it was mostly the team, though. What did the team do? So I didn't find it a puzzle.

CO: We are going to go back into the CBC archives -- go back 42 years to the 1977 Stanley Cup series, Game 4. You must remember this Ken. And Canadiens are facing the Boston Bruins in that series. And we're going to play this tape.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNOUNCER 1: Over to Ratelle. Defense! Blocked by Dryden.

ANNOUNCER 2: And Dryden has lost his mask. The penalty has expired. Goal!

[Crowd cheers]

CO: I'm so sorry to do that to you Ken. But of course if people can't hear -- it's a bit muddy -- but you lost your mask. Boston scored against Ken. And we heard the applause, the screaming, the organs. I'm sorry, but what does that mean to you? That moment?

KD: I don't think you're that sorry, Carol.

CO: I'm trying hard.

KD: But it is what happens with goalies that almost all the highlights are something you let it.

CO: Well it all ends well.

KD: That's right. I remember that really well because I think there's only twice in my career that I lost my mask. And there was a play in the crease and the players were jostling and somebody bumped into me and my mask flew off. And it's a very odd feeling to suddenly be there without your mask on. And the irony of the whole thing is that it felt good. I loved the feeling of coolness on my face, and I wanted to demonstrate how, in fact, it didn't matter whether I had a mask on or not. That I was going to continue to play and a mask was irrelevant. And then, of course, he scored. To make it seem very relevant.

CO: But I think the Habs went on to win that, right.

SB: And in today's game, the rule is when the goaltender's mask comes off the play stops.

CO: Is that right?

SB: Oh yeah.

CO: What you asked Scotty to do Ken was to really assess the strengths and weaknesses of these eight teams. And he didn't spare you. I mean you got to know your strengths and weaknesses from his point of view. What was it like for you to have Scotty give it to you straight like that?

KD: Well, it was almost the last conversation we had. And I knew that I had to ask the question, but I avoided asking until the very end. I was nervous. I mean I was really...I was nervous. And I was nervous before some of the games and series that involve the team that I played on. And I was nervous for what Scotty might say.

CO: We are just remembering though that you did have some pretty blunt things to say to Ken way back in the 70s too. I mean 72-73 season -- didn't you get accused of being a diva Ken?

KD: Scotty would never have put it that way. But he would put it in a way that was even harder to take. I mean we would refer to it now as acting like a diva. But then it was after watching me kind of have mini tantrums, after I'd let in goals and slamming my stick to the ice and scowling. And finally, Scotty, after I'm sure a few weeks of this he sort of had enough and just came up to me in practice one day and said, do you think you're too big for this team? Do you think you're too good for this team? And essentially he was saying, you know, that look, I mean, all of those gestures you're making, essentially what you're saying is that you have a standard that is different from anyone else's. You have a need to win different from anyone else's. You are unwilling to accept certain things in a way that others are willing to accept them. And that you're just too good in that way. Is that what you're saying? And that was hard to take. That was a real ouch moment.

CO: Did you need that?

KD: I'm sure I did. I didn't think I needed it at the time. Scotty can answer you.

SB: Now they have goalie coaches so it's pretty reasonable now.

CO: But is it not true, though, that Ken you refused to hug Scotty back after you won that?

KD: I mean it wasn't an obvious not. I mean Scotty was hugging everybody and he hugged me. But I just didn't hug back. That's all. But it was an important moment. The thing that's quite remarkable that I find is that we shared seven seasons together. We won five Cups during that time. You go through a lot in seven seasons. And in the atmosphere of Montreal, there is never a quiet day. There's never an easy day. And those are seven years of potential misunderstandings. Things not going right. All of that. There are two moments that I can remember where we had bad moments. One of them was that. And one was after the 1979 Challenge Cup in New York. And it was the NHL All-Stars against the Soviet All-Stars. And I played the first two games. We won the first game. We lost the second game. And Gerry Cheevers was chosen to play the third game. And I was crushed. And I remember, you know, the couple of days later, we're back in Montreal and I go into Scotty's office and I just sort of say to him, you know, like, what about this? And he was really good because what he could have said was that well you know everybody just sort of came to a joint conclusion and decided to make the change. Instead he said that but then he also said you know, as the coach, I could have overridden them if I felt absolutely certain. But I didn't override them. And so that was the other moment in seven years -- and that's pretty good you know, of having only two moments like that, that I can recall.

CO: I'm just watching Scotty while you tell that story. And I don't think he's regretting it. I mean do you...

SB: Those series are very difficult for everybody. You're not coaching your own team for sure. And the people -- what they never realized is when we were playing those games against the Russia team -- national team -- they're a machine that's played together for maybe 11 months of the year. And we're a bunch of all-stars that are put together without practices. And it wasn't an excuse. But it showed to me the difference between the team game and an all-star game you know. And that was the tough part. And even in the 72 series which ended up in our favor -- Canada's favor -- people never realized the advantage and disadvantage that the two teams had.

CO: The Soviet team had over...

SB: Oh sure. And we learned a big lesson. But fortunately, we did come back. And Canada won that series.

CO: I'm learning a lot of why you are such a legendary and the greatest hockey coach ever at this. Scotty Bowman here with me As It Happens -- I'm speaking also with Ken Dryden about his book "Scotty: A Hockey Life Like No Other." And Scotty just to move ahead -- the pages, the calendar fall -- you left Montreal for Buffalo in 1979 after seven years there, it seemed you were done with coaching. You'd already been inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame. Then in 91 in Pittsburgh you changed your plans. What happened?

SB: Well, we had a misfortune in Pittsburgh. I was doing television for about three years after I left the Buffalo team. And I had an opportunity to go to Pittsburgh as a director of player personnel. They had a wonderful coach that they just hired at the same time the late Bob Johnson. And I had no intention of ever coaching again. My family was still in high school in Buffalo. I could pretty well dictate my own schedule. I could stay -- I didn't have to be there very often. I was there only in the playoffs. So it was a perfect I thought the chance to go back into hockey. And then all of a sudden through misfortune, Bob got cancer and couldn't coach the second year and passed away during that season. So it was tragic for everybody.

CO: Such a tragic story.

SB: It was. It was. They asked me if I would be the interim coach. When the season started we wanted to keep the job available. You never can tell -- he was battling a brain tumor and we wanted to keep the job. We didn't want to hire some career young guy coming in. You know, because we said he's going to come back and coach -- trying to stay positive. Unfortunately, around Thanksgiving, US Thanksgiving time, he passed away. But I had no intention of being a coach at all. I wasn't prepared for it. But I did that first year -- I stayed the course and tried to repeat as much. I mean I changed my coaching style because I wasn't expecting to be back in a coaching career again. And that's what happened.

CO: Stanley Cup also happened.

SB: We had a great team and they rallied behind. It is very similar to the time in Detroit when we won the first cup in 1997. Another tragedy, Vladimir Konstantinov -- one of our top players, a Russian player -- was in a limousine accident. He was injured very badly, couldn't play anymore. And they dedicated that season to believing that we would win for Vladimir. So there's a lot of motivation but the wrong kind. You know you don't want to have that.

CO: And so you began part two of a coaching career. But you still continue even to this day. You work as an adviser for the Chicago Blackhawks. As I think Ken mentioned, your son Stan, named after the Stanley Cup...[Laughter] Do you miss it? What do you miss about being behind the bench?

SB: It still comes back though. During the wintertime I still go to -- when I'm in Florida I go to all of Tampa Bay Lightning games. And they're a wonderful team. But even when I'm not at a game and there's no game to go to -- around 7 or 7:30 because you've been behind events so many times, you know, especially in the wintertime, the summer is different -- but it's funny the clock works in your mind and it's 7 or 7:30 you're thinking, well, just about time to go behind the bench. It's crazy, but it happens all the time. But I like to watch youth hockey too. I got four grandsons and one grand-daughter now that are playing in youth hockey. But I still go to as many tournaments. I really like to watch players that haven't even been drafted. I'm always inquisitive as a coach, but I'm trying now to 'who are the stars coming up?' You know, like you see them and then these are -- and even the ones that don't become draft picks...I like to watch Hockey.

CO: It's in your blood to be sure. Ken I'm glad that you were able to finally lure this man out and get a book out of him. Well done.

KD: Well, thanks. It was really a pleasure to do.

CO: All right. And thank you, Scotty Bowman, for coming and for a hockey life like no other. Thank you both.

KD: Thanks, Carol.

SB: Thank you.

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June 26, 2020 Episode Transcript

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