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The AIH Transcript for June 16, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I’m Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CO: Hero to zero. When the pandemic hit, big grocery chains gave workers a raise and called it "hero pay". Now that bonus has been scrapped. We reach a worker who says people like her are taking the risk while the companies pockets the rewards.

CH: Rallying cry. Donald Trump is scheduled to speak Saturday in Tulsa in front of nearly twenty thousand people. A county commissioner tells us no campaign event is worth risking the spread of COVID-19.

CO: Check and mate. From our archives, guests who picked up the skill of picking up moose and deer, by mimicking their mating calls.

Grocery essential worker

Guest: Amanda Nagy

CH: For frontline grocery workers like Amanda Nagy, making two extra dollars an hour has been life-changing. Ms. Nagy works in the bakery department at Fortino's, a Loblaw-owned grocery store in Hamilton, Ontario. Like thousands of other food and retail workers during the pandemic, she was getting a two-dollar-an-hour bonus on her paycheque. But last week, Loblaws and Metro announced they would stop paying workers that bonus. The decision prompted MPs of all political stripes to suggest this week that top executives from the grocery store chains testify before a parliamentary committee, to explain their decisions to pull back that extra pay. And Amanda Nagy wants answers, too. We reached her in Fort Erie, Ontario, on her day off.

CO: Amanda Loblaw chairman Galen Weston has said that his employees have adjusted to the, quote, new normal. So a two dollar bonus an hour is no longer necessary. What message do you have from Mr. Weston?

AMANDA NAGY: I don't think anybody in all of the world has adjusted to the new normal yet. We are still having to wear lots of PPE. We still have to go through temperature checks. So I don't think taking away our bonuses is fair.

CO: Has anything changed? I mean, you’re describing all of that. That's exactly as it's been since the beginning of this pandemic, when you had to change your procedures. Is it any less busy? Is it any less intense?

AN: The grocery store is still very steady. We are still very busy. There are still many things that we still need to accomplish in order to get a completely free workplace, which I don't think is possible until there is a vaccine. Not being able to work six feet apart from each other, not being able to work six feet apart from customers when you're working on the floor, or touching something that somebody else has come into contact with. That is never going to go away now.

CO: When you go home, how conscious are you of the possibility that you're bringing infection into your home?

AN: Very. We're definitely all sanitizing like our car wheels. We’re taking off our aprons. We're washing our uniforms every day, making sure that you change right when you get home and not being able to hug your son when he's like mommy's home. And, you know, you have to be like, wait a second, wait a second. Our health and safety should be number one. And we are more conscious of that than ever because we have to bring it home to our families.

CO: What did this extra two dollars an hour, what did that bonus mean for you?

AN: For me personally, I have been able to support local business through ordering takeout after working 10, 11-hour shifts. I've been able to purchase some Canadian-made raised beds for some homegrown produce. I've been able to save some money for the first time since I've been off of maternity leave. So the financial security, I feel grateful for it.

CO: I notice you mention the Canadian-made. So you're putting that money back into the local economy?

AN: Yes, I'm very conscious of that. Buying Canadian-made or supporting a local restaurant or just picking up some essentials. This money, this two dollars, is basically going right back into the Canadian economy, which in turn is exactly what Canada needs right now.

CO: It’s even called hero pay, isn't it? The extra bonus.

AN: Yes. And it was advertised that way. And we were in many advertisements of hero. We're being called essential workers. Well, you can't take away essential, even if this were to go back into phase two or anything were to happen, we're still very essential workers on the ground making sure that people are being fed every single day.

CO: And it's interesting you mention that because, yes, also in the advertising for the grocery store chains, didn't they? This was part of their image that they were giving you the hero pay and that you were the front line workers feeding Canadians.

AN: Yes. And then to take it away before this is even close to being over is a kind of slap in the face. I feel a little bit exploited.

CO: But you also must have felt that you were doing something important?

AN: Oh, 100 per cent. I do like my job. I am good at my job. I know how to order the proper amount of bread. I know how to get people working as a team. I enjoy my job, but I've always felt a little bit, I don't know, underwhelming when you tell people that, like, hey, I work at a grocery store. It's not really like a career-boosting, oh, my God, you have an amazing job. Well, this pandemic has made it. Oh, wait. You make sure that we have food. Everybody has food at the table. And it's fresh, and it's made local, and it's made with, like, care. So I definitely feel a lot more recognition. And I found a new love or passion for doing what I'm doing.

CO: One thing that the grocery chains, the executives of the grocery chains, have done is that they've [chuckle] united the political parties on the same issue that they want the executives of those grocery stores to appear before a parliamentary committee and explain themselves. And they want to know how is it that they are cutting this pay? And they want to know how is it that the Canadian government has given subsidies to the grocery chains in order to help them buy extra freezers and take care of those needs of feeding Canadians? And they want them to be accountable. What would you want to put to Galen Weston if you could get him in front of a panel?

AN: Okay, this is a good question. I would love for him to see that his wealth is growing, and so should the people that are on the front lines that are making his wealth grow, and all the other executives through all of the other chains. It's not just Loblaws. The grocery store is a very profitable business. They've made almost a billion dollars last year in profit. When their wealth grows, so should the people at work every day that come to work, that punch in, that order the bread, or make sure that there is enough canned goods on the shelves. These grocery workers are making sure that our society is somewhat normalized through these crazy times.

CO: It's interesting you say that because a billion dollars and then what the report says is that profits jumped actually 21 per cent for Loblaw in the first quarter, so since January. And that they had an increase in net earning of 42 million dollars. How much of that extra money that some of it will go to stock stock options and bonuses, I would imagine. How much of it was on the backs of you and the others who did this work over these months of the pandemic.

AN: Yeah. And those stockholders, that money is not going to be seen in the economy for years, maybe even decades. We as workers are going to be putting that money back into the economy. And that's exactly what the economy needs. That's exactly what Canada needs. And I think we need the public support behind us telling these big corporations that you should be sharing this wealth with your employees.

CO: Amanda, I will say what I know you're hearing all the time in the grocery store. Thank you for the work you guys are doing. It's really appreciated. It's hard right now. And I appreciate it. And thank you for speaking with us.

AN: Thank you. I really appreciate your time.

CO: Bye.

AN: Bye-bye.

CH: Amanda Nagy works at Fortino's, a Loblaw-owned grocery store in Hamilton, Ontario. We reached her in Fort Erie. We also requested comment from Loblaws chairman Galen Weston, but did not receive a response before airtime. To read more about this story, you can go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Folk instrumental]

Hal Johnson

Guest: Hal Johnson

CH: And now, some of us will go back in time — carried by this one familiar piece of music.

[Music: The very 90s vibes of the BodyBreak theme song]

CO: Hal, I know this isn't the first time you have spoken about the racism you encountered while you were creating BodyBreak. But this video puts it front and centre, and spells it out very clearly. Why did you decide you needed to speak out in this way right now?

HAL Johnson: Well, through our corporate presentations and presentations we do across the country, we sometimes will touch on that. But I felt that now was the time. And I was getting a lot of phone calls from my white friends, and they were asking me questions. And I said, you know, it's nice that you called. It's nice that you want to help. It's nice that, you know, you don't know what to say in terms of, you know, how you can help. But I said just listen. And then we started talking about BodyBreak. And then a couple of my friends suggested I should do a little video about that. So I just thought, okay, I didn't know what to say. I didn't know exactly how to come across. And I thought, you know, let me just talk about how Joanne and I created it, and some of the roadblocks. And for people to understand that you're gonna have roadblocks in life, whether it be gender, whether it be your colour of your skin, or whatever it might be, but you can overcome them.

CO: Maybe describe some of the things that you mention in this video about what you encountered? And I think that one incident going back to when you were shooting a commercial, actually, you were part of a commercial, which led really directly to you writing up a storyboard for BodyBreak for the first time. What happened in that instance?

HJ: Well, there was three of us, and we were shooting the commercial. There was myself, there was a white young lady and white guy, and we were cheering as if we're patrons at the racetrack. And then halfway through the shoot, the assistant director went to the director, said something, and then the gentleman and the lady, they switched positions. So at lunch, I just happened to ask the guy, why did you do that? It was kind of odd. He said, well, the client didn’t want anyone to mistake that you and her were together. And I thought, you know, growing up, my dad's Black and my mom's white. To me, that's normal. [chuckling] And so I thought, how do I make this normal for all Canadians?

CO: Right.

HJ: And I just recently met Joanne about a month earlier than that. And it got me thinking, and I wrote out a storyboard that afternoon at lunch. And I came back to my house, and she said this is fantastic. She's a former Canadian athlete, and so am I. So let's try to channel sport and activity and fitness to show that everybody that we can all live, work and play together.

CO: Just go back to that instance. And this is, of course, in Toronto. So had you ever encountered anything like that before? Because your mum and dad are together. Had you ever had that kind of racist encounter before in the city?

HJ: Well, you know, it's funny, it is racism. I prefer in some respects to call it prejudice. You’re prejudging. And you're just ignorant of the facts. But, yeah, I mean, I had several incidences. The incidences really started to occur when you start dating. When you start to date in high school, before that, I'm just, you know, one of the guys. And then when I went to the United States, and went to the University Colorado and played ball there, you know, I had many incidents of prejudice being pulled over by the police several times for no reason. But I hold no ill-will towards police officers. It's a very difficult job. I think that there has to be some reform in that and open-minded thinking. And with BodyBreak, we also looked at gender equality, and we wanted to show persons with disabilities. So it wasn't just about skin colour. We're showing that everybody can live, work and play together. And I hold no ill-will to TSN or anyone else for what happened. In fact, I thank them. And I'm very pleased with where we're at in our lives.

CO: All right. I want to ask you what happened when you and Joanne, who was producing the show with you, when you went to TSN, what happened when you pitched the show?

HJ: Well, they loved the show, but they thought because I'm Black and Joanne’s white, that caused an issue. So they offered what they would pay for each show. But it would have to be a white actor in place of myself. And Joanne and I, we produce, direct, edit. Joanne writes all the scripts. We do everything. And so I was saying... I said to them, thank you very much. I left that afternoon, and I got home, and I looked at the phone and I chanted, what can I do? Who can I call? What can I do? Who can I call? What can I do? Who can I call? And I turned to Joanne, and I said, who does that fitness stuff for the government? And I thought maybe this will hit a nerve with the government. So who does fitness for the government? She said ParticipACTION? And I called them, talked to a gentleman named Bob Duck. And within a month or so, we had a contract with ParticipACTION for a test run. And without ParticipACTION, we would have never been successful. And I hold them in high esteem for what they did for us at the time. And the irony is that TSN became the station that played us the most. They played the heck out of us. The first time BodyBreak was aired, it was aired on CBC during “The Beachcomber's”.

CO: When you say that it's not racism, what you encountered with TSN or with the commercial, but it is about wanting to protect the racist sensibilities, isn't it? I mean, the idea that there are people out there who are uncomfortable with race. And that the commercial aspect of it as well, we can't risk losing profits by insulting those people, right? Isn’t that the issue?

HJ: Right. Absolutely. And money seems to drive it. And so they were afraid. And so when fear happens, you resort to what's the same? You don't want to go out on a limb. What's great now is we see, you know, we see commercials with an Asian and a white person, a Black woman and an Asian gentleman. You know, companies want to think forward, and companies want to portray that. And at the time that we were putting on the air, they didn't go that route. They didn't show that. It's unfortunate, but things have changed. I'm very, very hopeful, and things are going to get better. Some people say all the craziness right now that’s going on. I think this is fantastic. That people, white people, have reached out to me, and they want to know. And that's fantastic. And let’s have a discussion. Let's talk about it.

CO: You said that they white friends are asking you questions. What are they asking you?

HJ: They want to know, you know, what can I do? You know? And so many friends have said to me [laughing], and I joke and I laugh, and they say, you know, I don't think of you as Black. And I said, well, I certainly think of you as a white Irish guy that's five-foot-seven. You know, I said, if you were to describe me, how would you describe me? Well, then if I describe you. But so we joke, you know, you hopefully give them a little education on that. That for me, as a Black person, I want to be thought of as who I am. You know, and I think everybody does. So I think deep down, people are good.

CO: Well, your video is something everyone should watch. And it's a good explainer of what you're trying to do when people call you. And I really appreciate speaking with you, Hal. Thank you.

HJ: My pleasure. Thank you very much.

CO: Bye.

HJ: Bye-bye.

CH: Hal Johnson is the co-creator, along with Joanne McLeod, of "BodyBreak". He was in Oakville, Ontario. This afternoon, TSN issued an apology to Mr. Johnson for the racism he experienced there.

[Music: Upbeat instrumental]

Porta-potty library

Guest: Dorothy Combe

CH: About a thirty-minute drive southeast of Glasgow, at the intersection of Hawksland Road and Greenrig Road, standing in some long grass, is a tall, dark green box. It looks like a porta-potty. And it is. But it's much more than that. A wooden sign posted outside reads, "W-C Reading Room." Dorothy Combe came up with the idea to create the W-C Reading Room. We reached her at her home in Hawksland, Scotland.

CO: Dorothy, what is the purpose of the W-C Reading Room of Hawksland, Scotland?

DOROTHY COMBE: To share reading material and activity material for adults and children in a hamlet whilst we were in lockdown.

CO: And what does the W-C Reading Room actually look like?

DC: It looks like what we call in the UK a porta-loo, which I think you call it a porta-potty. That's what it looks like on the outside, but on the inside, it's been converted to hold shelving, where we have adult books, magazines, children's books, children's toys, board games, DVDs and CDs

CO: Okay, the porta-potties. I've been in don’t seem to be large enough for that. [chuckling] So just describe [DC laughing] what it is when you open the door. What does it look like?

DC: Okay. The door opens towards you, and normally on the left-hand side, there would be a wash hand-basin. And that's been taken out completely. Straight ahead would normally be where one would sit down and do one's business. That's been completely disinfected and covered over with shelving, and the shelving on all three sides, other than the door side, obviously.

CO: Wow! [chuckling] So that’s how you managed to get all that in there?

DC: It's amazing. I'm really delighted.

CO: [chuckling] How did you come to make a library out of a porta-potty?

DC: We have a small group within our hamlet, which is a fundraising group, and we have fun at the same time. So it's fun-raising and fundraising. But because of COVID-19, we're obviously having to distance. And we have three porta-loos that belong to our little society, one of which wasn't working. And I thought to myself, we're all reading more. We can’t go to a bookshop because They're closed. Then why not share the books that we're all reading? And the porta-potty was sitting there doing nothing. So we thought, go for it!

CO: [chuckling] And how popular has the W-C Reading Room been?

DC: Very popular. Very popular. Children, adults alike, almost cradle-to-grave.

CO: So give us the routine. How do you check out a book out of the porta-potty?

DC: That isn't an inventory as such as you would find in your normal library. And it's just up to you what you want to take. But we would hope that you would return it when you're finished, so that somebody else can use it. And all the members of our hamlet have the code to get into the door.

CO: Because it's locked, right?

DC: Yes.

CO: And so we know that we have these things called “Little Libraries” everywhere where people can take a book or put a book in.

DC: Um-hmm.

CO: [chuckling] But this is taking it to a whole new level, isn't it?

DC: Yes, definitely. It's going to depths that nobody has gone to before, I think. [both laughing]

CO: Well, hopefully not to depths, which brings me to the question. I mean, because we all associate these portable toilets with smell. So what is the odor like?

DC: There isn't one. It's as sweet as a nut. [CO cuckles] It's been really well, well pressure-washed, bleached, disinfected, sanitized. We have hand sanitizer in there also. It's just sweet, honestly.

CO: Where exactly is it located?

DC: In the centre of our hamlet, just by the side of the road. We as a group, we fundraised and bought a notice board two or three years ago, and we put that up, and it's right next to the notice board. And there's a sign outside which does say, “W-C Reading Room”.

CO: [chuckle] Do you think this idea will catch on? There are lots of those old porta-potties lying around in fields, and not being used, especially now. Do you think this is an idea that might take off?

DC: I think in the age of recycling, I think it's a jolly good idea. And it'd be a shame if it didn't take off. But I'm really delighted that we've been the pioneers in this. But I would like to think that other people will follow.

CO: And why then, is it W-C because it's often called a water closet. Is that why it's called “W-C Reading Room”?

DC: That's one of the two reasons. But the second reason is that my late husband had a penchant for reading in the W-C at home, and his initials were W.C.

CO: [laughing] What do you think he would say about your porta-loo library being named after him?

DC: He would laugh his socks off. He would be really delighted.

CO: [chuckle] Well, is there someplace you can sit inside the library, so maybe an honorary chair in honour of your husband?

DC: [laughing] Well, there's not at the moment. We can sit on one of the bottom shelves and browse. But we're hoping that once lockdown is over, and we've got through this pandemic, that maybe we might fundraise and buy a couple of benches for outside, and a table where we can meet and discuss books and maybe have a book club.

CO: Lovely. Dorthy, what's the most popular book at the W-C Reading Room?

DC: I think thrillers, escapism, travel, because they can't travel right now. And the children's section is very popular.

CO: So something to take home to read in the loo, I guess?

DC: Well, not all of us read in the loo.

CO: [chuckling] Dorothy, it's great to talk to you. Thank you so much.

DC: You're very welcome. Thank you very much indeed.

CO: Bye.

CH: Dorothy Combe came up with the idea to create a library out of a porta-potty. We reached her in Hawksland, Scotland.

Tiwanese airport ultimate staycation

[Music: Spanish guitar]

Part two: Tulsa Trump rally, moose and deer calls

Tulsa Trump rally

Guest: Karen Keith

CH: The Tulsa World newspaper had a message for Donald Trump this week. In an editorial, it said, quote: "This is the wrong time and Tulsa is the wrong place for the Trump rally." Unquote. That message is echoed by the director of the Tulsa City-County Health Department, who has called on the U.S. President to postpone his campaign event, because of COVID-19 concerns. The event is set for this Saturday at the indoor, 19-thousand seat BOK Center arena. It's Mr. Trump's first campaign rally since March. Karen Keith is a Tulsa County Commissioner, and a Democrat. The BOK Center is in her district. We reached Ms. Keith in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

CO: Commissioner Keith, I understand people are already arriving for Saturday's rally in Tulsa. What are you seeing on the streets today?

KAREN KEITH: Well, I walked down to the BOK Center, and I met some really friendly folks. That guy, Mike, from Evansville, Indiana, his tenth rally. Eric Frazier from Ohio, his 21st. His buddy James. And then this Robin Sypes from Salazar, Oklahoma. This is her second rally. And she met Rick and James in Lexington at a rally in November. And then I met the other guy who was sitting there with him, Telmor Phillips, and that gentleman from New York City who's writing a book. So they're the first in line. They will be the first to go in. But we're expecting, they're planning for, at least 100-thousand people to be in the area between the BOK Center, on the streets between the BOK Center and our convention.

CO: Wow! This is days before the event. And there's seating for what, 19-thousand is what they're expecting to see?

KK: Yeah, there's room in the BOK Center for 19-thousand. And I think they're expecting to have about 45-thousand on the street, and maybe with a band, and then the rest of them in our convention centre. But who knows how many are going to show up? I mean, campaign's been saying, and Trump was saying, a million. So who knows?

CO: Why do you think that Donald Trump should postpone this rally? I mean, you talk about people being very excited about this. It's been a very long and difficult winter, as you know. I mean, aren't they entitled to get a bit of a thrill about something like having the president in their city?

KK I mean, sure. And Oklahoma is a really welcoming place. And at any other time, it would just be so much better. But we had our highest number of cases yesterday since this whole thing began. And we had a record spike of 89. Today, it went down to 76. And then we had two deaths added to that. So the numbers are just not looking that good for us right now. We're having another spike. We're attributing it to the more Memorial Day weekend. So we're in a spike. And, you know, some of our health folks are thinking that numbers could go up times three after this event, in a couple of weeks.

CO: So what discussions have there been between the Tulsa authorities and the president's campaign to be there in Tulsa? I mean, I know that there were serious concerns about the date being on June 19th, but now dealing with a health issue, what are they saying about that?

KK: I think our governor made the invitation, and then kind of had things the way he wanted it worked out before even contacting our mayor, which kind of put him between a rock and a hard place. Because I will tell you that our Tulsa and Oklahoma City mayors did a great job in shutting us down early, keeping our numbers low and doing an extraordinary job. So we just opened back up. And like I said, we're seeing a spike now because people try to get back to normal. And I think we were all hoping here’s the summer. You know, it's going to be like any other flu, where the numbers drop off in the summer. But that has simply not happened.

CO: And these people, tens of thousands, maybe even more, will be coming from outside the state, is that right?

KK: Well, I mean, I mean, this is just a little list that I read to you. So those are all from other states, except for two, who are the first in line. So who knows if that is what the pattern is going to look like? I don't know. I just don't know what this is going to look like. I know all of our hotels are filled, you know? And, of course, our hotels have been dying for business. So that part could be good. We'll see.

CO: The campaign for President Trump said on Twitter that they, well, and elsewhere, they said that there's going to be a temperature check, hand sanitizer, a mask given to everybody before they enter. Do you think that will mitigate things?

KK: I'm hoping that will help tremendously. But you know what? You know, Carol, what you're seeing on the streets is people are going to be very tight. I mean, the proximities, social distancing, that's just not going to happen. I mean, I don't see how that's even possible in any way, shape or form. So, I mean, the logistics are just going to be very difficult to contain a spike.

CO: The hint is there’s suggestion is that look, maybe people are are overreacting to COVID-19, and that this is safe to do this if you put things in place. At the same time, we're seeing that the rally organizers are getting everyone who registers to acknowledge that an inherent risk of exposure to COVID-19 exists. Quote, By attending the rally, you and any guests voluntarily assume all risks related to exposure to COVID-19. And you agree not to hold Donald J. Trump For President Inc, as well as the rally site organizers liable for any illness or injury. What do you make of that? That people have to sign that disclaimer before they can come?

KK: Well, I think clearly they understand that there is a threat that COVID is going to be spread during this event.

CO: And just finally, we know that one of the other things that President Trump has said, and others are saying as well, is that we are seeing the anti-Black racism movement, the protests everywhere across your country and around the world, people turning out into the streets. And that there has not been that much criticism they say about those and about the risks that that poses, that this is some kind of hypocrisy to say that the Trump rally poses a threat when those other demonstrations don't. What do you say to that?

KK: So I was actually out there with one of the groups, and a lot of the young people had their masks on, number one. Number two, they are outdoors, which helps mitigate some of that. But a lot of the young people were wearing masks. And so I do appreciate the fact that they're willing to do that. And most of our rallies here have been very peaceful. But I would bet the majority of them were wearing masks. So it's a totally, totally different group of people who think differently about COVID and taking precautions.

CO: What do you mean?

KK: Well, I don't think... I mean, you know, I don't think that a lot of the folks who will be at the rally are that concerned about the coronavirus or the pandemic. I don't think that's their biggest concern.

CO: People who support Trump don't believe in the coronavirus?

KK: I think there's some element of that, sure.

CO: Commissioner Keith, we'll leave it there. Thank you.

KK: Thank you so much, Carol.

CH: Karen Keith is a Tulsa County Commissioner. We reached her in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

[Music: Indie rock]

David Attenborough turtle sex

[Sound: The sounds of animal life carries about]

DAVID ATTENBOROUGH: Having a body encased in shell obviously brings problems. And one of them is how do you mate? Making love in a suit of armor is not easy. But the males have a very ingenious solution. The underside of their shell is concave, so it fits neatly over the domed top of the shell of the female, who is somewhat smaller. That doesn't make clambering on top of her any easier, initially. But once the male is up there, it will reduce his chance of slipping off.

[Sound: More nature!]

DA: The two shells fit together as neatly as two spoons.

[Sound: This is the turtle sex!]

DA: So mating can begin. And once started, it can go on for a long time.

[/sc]

CH: We need all that work… to… to get started. David Attenborough, on the intricacies of giant tortoise mating — something Diego the Galapagos tortoise understands better than most. After 87 years in a breeding program, Diego is celebrating his hard-earned retirement this week.

[Music: Polka music!]

Moose and deer calls

[sc]

[Sound: And we are now onto the moose calls, folks]

[/sc]

CH: That's a male moose who's communicating that he's ready to knock hooves. And here's a cover version of that sound.

CH: The Los Angeles Times is reporting that prosecutors have cut a deal with the man they accuse of being the Golden State Killer. The paper's sources say that Joseph James DeAngelo Jr. will avoid the death penalty, in exchanging for pleading guilty to at least 13 rapes, 13 kidnappings, and 13 murders. The crimes took place in Southern California between 1973 and 1986. But the case went cold until the posthumous publication of Michelle McNamara's book "I'll Be Gone in the Dark". The book was completed by Bill Jensen after Ms. McNamara's death. Mr Jensen spoke to Carol about Mr. DeAngelo after his arrest in April 2018.

BJ: It was through DNA. That was really all that they would say. I have a feeling it might have been through familial DNA, which means that they put it into a database and found you know found not a not an exact match but somebody that was close to him, an uncle, a son, a brother, something along those lines that was in the database, and then they narrowed it down to him. You know so it was a matter of just constantly entering the DNA profile into whatever database that you could find, and then taking it from there.

CO: And what effect do you think Michelle's work had on the fact that this case is now solved?

BJ: I think it had a big effect. Nobody knew of this case you know outside of Sacramento. And you know a couple people you know in Irvine and Santa Barbara. You know she was the one, and it's sad because it really was her death that promoted the case into really popular consciousness. She was the one that named them she named in the Golden State Killer because she felt that the other name that he had was a mouthful. So instead of original “Nightstalker East Area Rapist” you know let's give him one name that really encapsulates everything that he was doing. And on top of that, you know when she passed, everybody learned about this woman who was a wife of a comedian, and she was working on a book about the Golden State Killer. OK, who is that? And when you have something like that, and you have national news about a guy that killed 12 people and raped 50, that brings upon pressure on to law enforcement. Law enforcement might say you know we should devote more energy into this case.

CO: What do you think Michelle McNamara would say if she could be face-to-face with the alleged Golden State Killer?

BJ: Yeah, I have a feeling she was so good at not taking people off guard, but really just sort of disarming them, and then getting them to feel comfortable that I think that she would just start a conversation with him first about whatever, and then you know lead him down the path, and get him to tell things that he might not normally tell somebody else. That's what would happen.

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[Music: Indie rock]

CO: What?!

GP: So we think that's happened a couple of times. Someone moving house might have just dumped them in the village.

CO: Okay, so when you were released from quarantine, and you all came out, what did you find in the way of a feral chicken population in your town?

GP: The population started to spike up again. There's only about 30 of them now. It's much better than what it was before. But we have to be vigilant because otherwise, I can see the problem getting out of control again.

CO: Well, they breed, I guess.

GP: They sure do. And we don't have predators in New Zealand. So if you have abundant food and no one eating you, [laughing] then your population tends to grow pretty quickly.

CO: Okay, so the chickens are breeding like rats and the rats are breeding like chickens. So what's happening now with your double problem?

GP: We still got the contractors trying to catch the chickens. And council staff in a very good local environmental organization do a lot of rat trapping.

CO: What do you personally think about this chicken issue?

GP: I would much prefer that our native birdlife came back. So I’m very happy not to see another chicken ever again. And for our native birds to come out instead.

CO: Okay, so now that you have for the most part, vanquished your COVID-19 problem, do you think you'll be able to vanquish your chicken problem?

GP: No, I think they're going to prove more difficult. COVID-19, we threw everything that the state had at it. Chickens, we don't have the resources to do that, unfortunately. But we'll do what we can.

CO: So you’re just going to have to start liking these critters a bit more, I guess?

GP: I don't think there's much chance of that happening. [both laughing] The village has been divided for years. It's going to continue to feel that way, I think.

CO: All right, Greg. Well, I wish you luck with your fine-feathered friends. And it’s good to talk to you. Thank you.

GP: Thanks a lot.

CO: Bye

GP: Bye.

CH: Greg Presland is the Chair of the Waitākere Ranges local board in Titirangi, New Zealand. That's where we reached him.

Nova Scotia tattoo

PORTIA CLARKE: Yeah, I bet that Nanny Joyce was disappointed that it was canceled this year. And now, like you say, you're coming up with this plan to put together your own Tattoo. What does that involve?

AM: First and foremost, we had a number of individuals reach out to us on the community level. We've had the pipe and drum bands as well some dance groups reach out, even a few naval officers, which we're super excited about because our grandfather was in the Navy. And Nany always jokes about how her parents didn't approve of her falling for a sailor. So she's definitely gonna enjoy men walking in uniform. [both laughing] So we are very thankful that the Tattoo themselves have also reached out to us. So we're extremely happy that they've kind of stepped up to manage things behind the scenes for us. We're attempting to kind of pass around the idea of potentially having a parade. What would happen is one end of the street, say the bagpipers would come in, and they'd play out their little number and then go out the opposite side of the street. And then the dancers would come in and they'd do their performance. And kind of like a running production line.

PC: Wow! And this is for June 27th, so you have a little bit of time yet. But it sounds like a lot to coordinate. And your Nanny, Joyce has no idea? I mean, is she listening right now to the radio, do you think?

AM: No. So she actually doesn't listen to the radio, and she has no social media.

PC: Perfect!

AM: She’s just not interested in computers or cell phones. So there's no risk here of her hearing. And she's also not a morning person. And so she will not be up until about noon.

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CH: Allison Meikle of Halifax woman speaking with the CBC's Portia Clarke. Since it was cancelled this year, Ms. Meikle and her siblings are on a secret mission to bring the Nova Scotia Tattoo to their grandmother's doorstep, so she doesn't miss a thing.

Ideas promo

CH: Tonight on Ideas, just after As It Happens, the second of two episodes featuring Nobel Laureate and writer, Doris Lessing's 1985 Massey Lectures. She takes a hard look at the role of what she saw as brainwashing in democratic societies.

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CH: An excerpt from the second of a two-episode rebroadcast of Doris Lessing's 1985 Massey Lectures. You can catch the full episode tonight on “Ideas”, right after As It Happens.

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Video game ADHD

Guest: Adam Gazzaley

CH: The tagline for the video game is, “play your medicine.” And now, that’s exactly what kids can do.

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VOICE: All right, Recruit. Suit up!.

VOICE THREE: Checking in as you make your wan into the next world!

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GRAHAM MINER: You'll arrive at this office, for example. There's designated parking spots. When you arrive, you will call inside. You'll reach somebody there. They'll ask you for your information, your registration information, your license plate, insurance, those type of things. That person then will pass along the paperwork to the driver examiner. And then we're going to come out. We'll explain to you exactly what we're going to do. You will put the camera into your vehicle. What you'll find is very quick. Just click onto the windshield, into the cigarette lighter or the 12-volt, and the camera comes on right away. The observation vehicle where the examiner is in, they have a camera as well. So then you, with whoever your driving partner is, who you’ve resided with for over 14 days, maybe mom or dad for beginners, you'll go for the road test. We'll have the camera showing the inside of the vehicle, the outside of the vehicle. We'll have the audio. So we know that there's no assistance going on. Exactly. And, of course, we'll have observation from behind. Now, we've done this for a lot of years in motorcycle tests, actually, where we follow motorcycles in an observation vehicle with a radio system. So we're using the same radio system we'd use for motorcycles as we would with the motor vehicle. Now, when the road test is complete, the vehicle come back here and do a backup test. Then the examiner will have a conversation with the person as to whether they passed or they failed. And a few of the advantages of this are for the person taking the test. And we'll find out through the pilot period is if you're driving with somebody you're more comfortable with, how will that affect our pass/fail rates?

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CH: That was Graham Miner, Prince Edward Island's director of highway safety, speaking with CBC PEI. The province has begun doing road tests without the examiner in the car.

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June 16, 2020 Episode Transcript

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