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The AIH Transcript for June 15, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Equal before the law. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that workers cannot be fired for being gay or transgender. One of the people who fought for that protection didn't live to see it happen. Her lawyer tells us what it would have meant to her.

CH: Long overdue. A hundred years ago in Minnesota, a black man was convicted and imprisoned without any proof. The state's attorney general tells us why the case has become Minnesota's first ever posthumous pardon.

CO: Bar code. In Quebec, you can go to a restaurant and get a haircut. But many bars have been left out of the big reopening. We hear from a Montreal bar owner who is ready to mix it up with the province.

CH: To infinity and beyond. The first American woman to walk in space has become the first woman to reach the deepest known part of the ocean. And her great heights have made her really deep.

CO: Pickup artist. A protester at a Black Lives Matter rally found himself saving an injured man suspected of being a far-right demonstrator. But he says he didn't think twice before he lifted him up and carried him to safety.

CH: And building a better moose trap. After perfecting the disguise that made him look like a moose, our guest passed as one of them while they went about their business and while they got busy. As It Happens. The Monday Edition. Radio that will stop at nothing to get the antlers.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Aimee Stephens took LGBTQ rights to the U.S. Supreme Court, but never got to see her victory

Supreme Court Ruling

Guest: Chase Strangio

CH: Gay and transgender workers in the United States are now protected from being fired because of their sexuality. In a landmark decision, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled six to three today that LGBTQ workers are protected from job discrimination. The ruling came about because of three people who brought their cases to the court. One was Aimee Stephens. The transgender funeral director from Detroit was fired after writing a letter to her coworkers, telling them she intended to live and work full time as a woman. Chase Strangio was one of the ACLU lawyers who represented Aimee Stephens. We reached him in New York today.

CO: Chase just how big a day is this for you and others in the LGBTQ community?

CHASE STRANGIO: This is just an incredible moment to have a full comprehensive win, six to three, from the Supreme Court making explicitly and undeniably clear that LGBTQ people are protected under federal law from employment discrimination and by extension, from discrimination in a lot of other areas. Protected from sex discrimination under federal law, it's incredible. And it really comes on the heels of a ton of amazing organizing. Just yesterday, there was a rally of 15000 people in Brooklyn rallying for black trans lives. So I think the two things together, the resistance in the street of violence, state violence, and interpersonal violence against black trans people and then this incredible victory at the Supreme Court are just a beautiful complement to give us a lot of energy in this moment.

CO: I was following your tweets and you had some real reservations as to whether this was going to happen, given that the Supreme Court has a conservative majority. So maybe just in really simple terms, explain what this now says about both sexual orientation and gender identity. What does that expand as far as these rights go?

CS: Yeah. So what it means is that under our federal law covering the entire United States, that the protections that prohibit sex discrimination include protections against discrimination based on sexual orientation or transgender status. So the Supreme Court has, in effect, explicitly made clear that LGBTQ people are covered under workplace protections under federal law, which applies in all 50 states. What had previously been true was that there were sort of a patchwork of lower court decisions and then different states have different explicit protections. So LGBTQ people weren't always clear on whether we had protections. And this makes it clear beyond a shadow of a doubt in the clearest possible terms with a 6-3 majority of a very conservative Supreme Court. And that is a truly historic moment.

CO: Justice Neil Gorsuch writing the decision and saying all the things that, yes this is what the act intended. But at the same time, he added during the hearing that he worried that the case could lead to, "massive social upheaval." What do you think he means by that?

CS: The irony, of course, is that, you know, by and large, the courts have ruled for many years that this is what the federal prohibitions on sex discrimination mean. And there hasn't been massive social upheaval. You know, so in his mind, he was pushing for an answer so that he could rule perhaps with the United States and the employers. But there is no answer. And at the end of the day, two things. One, that there is no massive social upheaval exception to the law. So it's not like the court could not apply the law if it would cause some sort of social unrest, let's say. But, you know, I would say more importantly that it's absolutely not going to cause any massive social upheaval to apply the plain text of a law to protect LGBTQ people from employment discrimination, which has been true for many years. We are in the workplaces. And I guess one other thing to point out is we're in the midst of massive social upheaval. We're in the midst of a global pandemic caused by COVID-19. We're in the midst of an uprising against police murders of black people, including black trans people. And so that's to the extent anything would cause a massive social upheaval on top of those that we were already experiencing, it would be this court green-lighting even more discrimination against groups of people that are experiencing so much violence, discrimination, and premature death.

CO: I want to ask you about your client, you were representing Aimee Stephens, who did not get to see this day. She died just two months ago. Why did she decide to take on this fight? She was fired in 2013, right?

CS: Yes. So Aimee as a transgender woman who lived much of her life knowing who she was but being afraid to come out in many ways, probably because of the very fear of being fired, you know, which is ultimately what came to pass. But when she finally came to terms with who she is, when she informed her employer that she is trans and would be coming to work as her true self, she was immediately fired. And she was heartbroken. And not only was she heartbroken, materially compromised from her health to her financial well-being. And she had no recourse. And so she at that point, as you know and as so many people have said, is she sort of found a second purpose in life as a trailblazer for the community. And in the final years of her life she created this rule that will impact generations to come.

CO: And if she could have been there with you today -- I mean, you tweeted about what this meant to her -- how do you think she would have reacted today?

CS: I mean, this was her life's mission at the end of her life. She tried so hard to hold on to the see the decision. And I thought that we would lose. And that would be the last thing that she saw. But instead, we won. And she won. I wish she had lived to see that. And it would have meant so much to her. And not just for her, not just for her own case, but really for what it means for the community, because she really took on the mantle of the fight for the entire community. And that is a hard thing to do. It means reliving your trauma. It means putting yourself out there when you're exhausted. It means getting hate mail. It means just taking on all of the reactions of others, good or bad. And that is exhausting, especially when she was struggling because she had lost her job and all the consequences that flow from that. So, you know, I wish she had lived to see the incredible work and culmination of her work. And I know she is probably looking down on us and smiling. And I hope she knows how much she changed the world.

CO: Chase it's quite a day and quite a ruling. And I appreciate you explaining it to us. Thank you.

CS: Thanks for having me.

CH: Chase Strangio is the deputy director for transgender justice at the ACLU. He was a New York.

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Ken Levi

CH: Today, the families of Rodney Levi and Chantel Moore are finding comfort in one another. Mr. Levi was a member of the Metepenagiag First Nation in New Brunswick. On Friday evening, he was shot and killed by police. Ms. Moore was a 26 year old Indigenous woman from B.C. who had recently moved to New Brunswick to be closer to her mother and daughter. She was killed during a wellness check by Edmonstone Police earlier this month. Ken Levi is Rodney Levi's uncle. He was at a gathering of the two families today.

KEN LEVI: It's just the way the culture is. And to have the Moore family come all the way here, I don't know if there's a coincidence or just the creators way of getting everybody together. I know it's a bad way, but to have all the face to face discussions of how they're feeling, what they've gone through, what they've experienced over this, brought everybody together I guess. And if there's justice or injustice, then it should be addressed accordingly like every other Canadian citizen have to if (there was) a similar act. It's an emotional time, not just because he's a family member -- the whole community, that's how they gain their strength. We might have a little bit of indifferences amongst each other like families do. But at the end of the day, when something happens like this, everybody bands together and the same thing is with the family coming here, taking the long drive here. And it's also the mom and sister from Elsipogtog, they came up. It's very important that everybody seen each other. It was a good thing because I never seen that from across the country to discuss their pain that they're going through. You know, there are grandmothers and there are brothers-sisters that are there. Very emotional discussions, you know, and very heartfelt. So it's a very very tough time for everyone.

CH: Ken Levi is the uncle of Rodney Levi, who was shot and killed by police in New Brunswick on Friday. Quebec's Bureau of Independent Investigations will be looking into Rodney Levi's death and the death of Chantel Moore just days earlier. Meanwhile, New Brunswick Premier Blaine Higgs says legislation that would have expanded police powers in the province is off the table. Speaking to reporters today, the premier said, quote, "Friday night changed things for a lot of people and that it's time to recognize the racism that's part of our society and has been for generations."

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Montreal Bar Complaints

Guest: Ziggy Eichenbaum

CH: As COVID-19 numbers continue to drop, Ontario and Quebec are opening back up for business gradually. Today, Ontario Premier Doug Ford announced that almost the entire province, excluding certain areas like Toronto, will be allowed to open up starting Friday. That includes things like malls, hair salons and restaurant patios. And in Quebec, there was even bigger news about even bigger gatherings.

HORACIO ARRUDA: Today, we are happy to announce, based on what we know now on the literature about transmission of the virus and also based on the epidemiology that we have observing in Quebec. We are going to announce that now they're going to be inside, I would say, get togethers a maximum of 50 persons that could be done if they respect the different distanciations. Okay.

CH: That was Dr. Horacio Arruda, Quebec's public health director, announcing that gatherings of 50 people in indoor public spaces will be allowed next week. People in Quebec were also able to enjoy a meal at a restaurant for the first time today. And Montreal will follow next week. But bars without a kitchen are still shuttered. And today the government said there is no date for when they'll be allowed to reopen. Ziggy Eichenbaum says he can't wait any longer. He has owned Ziggy's Pub in Montreal for 25 years. That's where we reached him.

CO: Ziggy, when are you planning to open your doors to customers?

ZIGGY EICHENBAUM: July 1st.

CO: And Quebec says the bars are not on the list to reopen. So will you be breaking the law?

ZE: Well, hopefully don't change their mind by then because the bars in Montreal are opening up on the 22nd. The problem we're having right now that they don't want the bars without a kitchen to open up. And we don't understand why.

CO: Let's pull this apart a bit. So on June 22nd, who is allowed to open as far as establishments.

ZE: All the pubs, bars, strip joints, anybody that has a kitchen.

CO: And you can't open because...

ZE: I don't serve food.

CO: Okay. But other than that, you basically do what others do, is that what you're saying?

ZE: Oh, totally. Yeah. And what they did, they even twisted the law a little bit, the liquor law, by letting pubs and bars serve you alcohol without food. You don't have to serve them food for them to drink. So they're becoming bars too now.

CO: So the restaurants are able to serve alcohol without serving food?

ZE: That's right. And you can sit in their bar and drink alcohol in the restaurant without eating.

CO: But they can be open because they have a kitchen, even if the kitchen is not serving the person who's drinking?

ZE: That's right. I mean, you can have hotels downtown with a few of the bars are opening up, but they're not opening up their kitchens. But that's okay because they have a kitchen in the back.

CO: Okay so your premier of Quebec, Francois Legault, says that the bars and restaurants are different because at bars people are standing up there, close together, they're drinking. And that in a restaurant, people, whether they're drinking or eating, they're sitting and they're able to keep a distance that you don't have with a bar. What do you say to the premier?

ZE: Well, I mean, it's ridiculous because if you come to my bar, I have segregated the stools and all that. I got the distance. I have booze. Technically nobody really stands up and drinks anymore. I have a terrace too where people sit. Those were 30 years ago when we were busy like crazy and people would stand up three or four deep and have fun. That's over now. They've been gone a long time.

CO: Okay, what else have you done? You were mentioning some of the things you have done to make your establishment safe. Where else are you doing?

ZE: Well, I mean, I put plexiglass in between the booths. I did exactly what a restaurant does. It is a restaurant without a kitchen.

CO: Why do you think that it's different for your establishment? If you've done all this and there really isn't that much difference, what do you think's behind this decision?

ZE: I don't really know what happened here because, I mean, the rest of Canada, if you look at it they are all opening up bars and restaurants at the same time. Bar, restaurant, pubs, it's all the same.

CO: There's a theory that people are putting forward that when people are drinking, when they go to have alcohol, that they lose their inhibitions or they become less conscious of things that maybe they become not as aware of what they should be doing to keep their distance.

ZE: I know, but what's that got to do with me? I'm the same thing as everybody else all around me. You know when you go to, let's say, if you go to Hurley's Pub or you go to Sir Winston Churchill Pub, it's all a bar. And it doesn't make any sense. I mean, I'm not trying to rebel. If they would had said "Hey, don't open up all bars, restaurants and pubs. We have another week or we have another two weeks to go." I'm in. It's okay with me. Just don't say, okay, the rest of Canada can open up bars, restaurants and all that, and exclude dining in Montreal. It doesn't make any sense to me. I mean I have to pay rent too.

CO: How difficult have these past months been for you and your establishment?

ZE: It was totally difficult. I mean we lost our St. Patty's. We lost Grand pre.

CO: Those are big events for you to make money.

ZE: Well that's what gets us afloat for the rest of the year. I mean, at this point right now, the way it fell we lost 50 percent of the year so far. And I'm sure we're going to lose a lot more. I'm saying just let us open with the capacity that we can, just to stay afloat. I mean, I'm willing, you know, just to pay rent and pay my staff and lose a little bit of money. I'm okay with that. But I mean, just to close and just me? It's not fair.

CO: You know, the situation as you know, there's a lot of tourism lost to Montreal all this year. And of course looking forward to the fall where normally students would be coming back and that's a big draw for your pub.

ZE: Huge. Huge.

CO: So what's your future Ziggy? What do you think's going to happen with your pub?

ZE: Well, I believe in, you know, the future, the universities and all that is coming back. It all has to come back. You can't just do university online. You might as well join Trump's university and get a diploma by mail. You know, it all has to come to...it's going to come back slowly. It'll never be the same as it used to be. But, you know, the normality will come back. But I mean, I realize that this year is pretty well a loss. But I mean, help us a little bit.

CO: All right. We will watch and see if your voice gets heard. You should invite their premier down for a beer and maybe he can see how things are.

ZE: Well, that's the whole thing. I don't know when was the last time he went into a bar. Because I remember their olden days when we used to go down across the street to Thursdays and there were like 100 people in the bar and there were three people deep and everybody's talking to everybody. Those days are over now.

CO: All right. Maybe you should invite the premier [chuckles] and point this out.

ZE: He's absolutely welcome and I'll even buy him the beer.

CO: [Chuckles] Ziggy it's good to talk and I hope things work out for you. Thank you.

ZE: Thank you very much.

CH: Ziggy Eichenbaum owns Ziggy's Pub. We reached him in Montreal.

[Music]

Marianas Trench Astronaut

Guest: Kathy Sullivan

CH: It's as deep as it gets. But Kathy Sullivan wasn't out of her depth. As an astronaut with NASA in 1984, Ms. Sullivan was the first American woman to walk in space. Later, she led the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, or NOAA. She's also a graduate of Dalhousie University in Halifax, which is where she earned her PhD in geology. Now Kathy Sullivan has become the first woman to visit Challenger Deep, the deepest known part of the ocean. It's part of the Mariana Trench. She went down earlier this month with explorer and private equity investor Victor Vescovo. We reached Kathy Sullivan on Friday on a boat in the Pacific above Challenger Deep.

CO: Kathy, you are the only person on the planet who can answer this question, how does hanging out at the deepest part of the ocean compare to walking in space?

KATHY SULLIVAN: Well, I find a couple of fun comparisons. The central one is that in each case, the magical reason that you can do, it is not really magic at all, it's the wonders of engineering that it's possible we have the knowhow the wherewithal, the materials to build something, a spacesuit or a submersible that lets you be in a place that otherwise you have absolutely no business being. There's either the hard vacuum of space, nothing to breathe, no pressure to keep your body intact, or there's the immense pressure of the deep sea and your spacesuit needs to keep the vacuum out. And the submersible absolutely needs to keep the immense pressures out. The bottom of the Challenger Deep is something like eight tons of pressure per square inch, which I think it's like five jumbo jets stacked up on every square inch of everything. And obviously, you don't want any of that to be your body.

CO: [Chuckles] And as far as the experience goes, how does it compare?

KS: The chief contrast is the line of sight, the grand vistas that you have up in orbit, you've got light all around you. Air and vacuum. You can see vast distances. You can see both huge panoramic sweeps that give you a sense of context and connection. You would never have an earthly experience. And at the same time, you can then zoom your attention to a smaller spot and see really rather remarkable detail. In the deep sea, of course, it's quite dark. Unless you've brought powerful lights down on your submersible, your field of view is zero to very limited. I think the limiting factor, which is the name of this Triton submersible that I was in, it's got quite a hefty bank of lights all around it. But even with all of that, I would guess that we're maybe seeing 30 feet of what's around us. On the other hand, the compensation for not having that vast vista is the ocean is so magically alive everywhere you look, it's just wondrous.

CO: As you were making this descent, I would imagine it has to be done very slowly given that pressure.

KS: Yeah. Well, it's done slowly, actually, just because of buoyancy and the size of the craft. The limiting factor, you think of a briefcase floating in the ocean with the handle up. That's sort of roughly the shape of the limiting factor. And it slips straight down like a dirigible or a balloon coming back down for a landing. We descended on average about a metre per second. Your average walking speed might well be about twice that fast. So it took us about four hours to get down. The sphere inside is I would describe it as cozy, but not cramped. Victor and I were seated side by side, but there was room for our feet and room to shift position a bit, room for my lunchbox and water bottle. You know, I ate lunch at 32000 feet below sea level because, you know, doesn't everybody do that?

CO: So you had in-flight or in-submarine entertainment? Was there a movie to watch or did you have that movie going on outside? [Chuckles]

KS: Yeah. Well, for me as an oceanographer, you know, the only movie I needed really was outside the windows. But, you know, Victor and I we're both pilots. So we're monitoring the craft and, you know, swapping flying stories and talking about what we're planning to do when we get on the bottom. As I said, munched our lunch when we are about a kilometre off the bottom. So we would have our hands and minds free for the scientific work we were going to do once we got there. We did, however, watch an in-flight movie on the way back up.

CO: Oh okay. What did you watch?

KS: It was my pick. And I chose a grand oldie: The Man Who Would Be King.

CO: You mentioned the technology that makes this possible, both to blast into space and to go to the bottom of the ocean. Very expensive, right? I mean, this submersible called limiting factor was something that cost maybe as much as 48 million dollars U.S.. Why is it important, do you think, to make those kinds of investments in order to explore?

KS: To me, it's the exploration that is important and whether public or private sources or combinations invest in that exploration is what really matters. I would put my finger on a couple of reasons. One is with respect to exploring this planet, there is still so much we don't know. The humankind continues to grow in number. The strange -- the population put on the planet continued to increase. And I think it would serve us very well indeed, to be sure, we're continuing to deepen and advance our understanding of our planet, its resources, its capabilities, how it works, and how we can live wisely and well on it. So that knowledge and understanding has to continue to advance as the human population grows. Secondly, a quest to explore, to go see or understand or find something that no one has done before, to push past some barrier that that grows and catalyzes both human development and technological development. I look back at the Apollo program and I think it was vastly more than just get to the moon and say, ta-dah I got there. It catalyzed an incredible array of dramatic advances in human biology, in health, physiology and digital computers. And all of those advances, A) got astronauts to the moon and back safely. But B) then cascaded and percolated through industry, through society, into our daily lives. I believe that kind of cascade of benefits flows back to society any time we pursue a big bold goal that is deliberately beyond what we can do at the moment. That's when we really have to dig deep and try hard, and we will innovate and invent and create new capacities that will help meet that goal, but then also serve many other benefits as well.

CO: And just in closing, to say congratulations for your accomplishments, Kathy it's really quite extraordinary. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

KS: My pleasure Carol.

CO: Take care.

KS: You too.

CH: That was Kathy Sullivan speaking to us after she reached the deepest known part of the ocean Challenger Deep. She was above it on a boat. To see pictures of myself and visit our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Part 2: Minnesota Posthumous Pardon

Minnesota Posthumous Pardon

Guest: Keith Ellison

CH: A pardon came 100 years too late for Max Mason. But the timing of it now in Minnesota is remarkable. Max Mason was a black man who was wrongfully convicted in a rape case in Duluth. The case sparked lynchings that took place on June 15th, 1920, 100 years ago today. Three black men were dragged into town and killed by white mobs after a white woman claimed she had been raped by a group of black men. Later, a fourth black man, Max Mason, was charged and convicted in the case despite virtually no evidence. Now, Max Mason has been posthumously pardoned. Keith Ellison is Minnesota's attorney general. We reached him in Duluth.

CO: Attorney General Ellison, you helped to make sure that Max Mason got a posthumous pardon just weeks after George Floyd was killed. Is the timing coincidence?

KEITH ELLISON: Actually, we had been planning the pardon of Max Mason for months. We wanted it to coincide with the 100th anniversary. And so way back in December, we knew that the 100th anniversary was coming up. So we said, you know what, we've got to get this pardon move. And so that's what we did. And so it happened to be just now. We had no idea the tragedy around the murder of George Floyd would be coming up.

CO: And why was it so important to you personally?

KE: Because these injuries, like a lynching, a mass lynching with 10,000 people stood and watched three men get killed and then a scapegoated state prosecution in Max Mason, inflicted an injury in the community that really left, right up until this moment mean because you have to ask yourself why you would have such a spectacular act of violence as a lynching and then a show trial. The purpose of this spectacular violence was to send a message to every black person that you are inferior, you should ask for nothing, be quiet, don't question the pay you're not getting, don't question the rights you're not receiving. And that's pretty much the message that that kind of violence was intended to send. And so it contributes to the marginalization and demobilization of black communities up to this very second.

CO: Can you tell us about Max Mason? Who was he?

KE: He was a hard working guy. His employer at the circus that he worked for wrote a letter on its behalf saying that you can count on him to show up on time and work hard while he was there. Circus work was difficult and dangerous and he did that work. He was from the Deep South, from Alabama. And he was up here in Minnesota working as a circus worker when a false report of sexual assault occurred. And originally, he wasn't identified by anyone. He wasn't even accused. But then later on, months later, somebody said that he was about the height of the person who did it. And so he was charged and put on trial and was convicted. At his first pardon petition, which was not granted back in the 1920s, the trial court judge said there was no evidence that he did anything wrong. The district court attorney said there was no evidence he did anything wrong. And yet he was convicted. And yet he did serve time in prison for a crime he never committed. So this pardon that has come up last Friday, that he was granted, really is the first time that his name was exonerated.

CO: And he was convicted of being part of a gang rape of an 18 year old white woman, Irene Tusken. You've looked at all the evidence. You looked at the case in the course of developing this posthumous pardon. What did you find about this case? What evidence did it present?

KE: Well, the first thing we found is that the young man who was with her, they were together at the circus. They then depart. She goes on a bus line. She doesn't report anything to anyone. The young man goes to work on the late shift. And his father asked him where he was and he ends up telling the story about how six black guys put a gun to his head and raped Irene. And his father then calls the police chief. The police chief then arrests these black man, puts them in the jail. And then within about 24 hours, three of them are lynched as the police are told to stand down from light poles in Duluth. Irene Tusken was examined by a doctor on the very day of this alleged attack on her, and he found that it was medically unable to determine whether she had any sexual contact with anyone, let alone raped by six men. And so he said he didn't think it occurred. There was no evidence of body fluids or injury of any kind at all. It's unlikely that if she was sexually assaulted, it wasn't by anybody who was identified -- certainly wasn't by Max Mason, and very possibly was the young man who made the initial report.

CO: You have been in the very spot in Duluth where this happened, where, as you point out, 10,000 people came out to watch as these three men were lynched and people took photographs of themselves. There were postcards made up of this. What was the experience like just to stand in that place and to recall this?

KE: Well, it was a powerful experience. You know, people all standing around very solemnly. It wasn't like a pep rally at all. It was really quite the opposite. It was like a church event. It was like a religious event where people sat in solemn silence as they all sort of pledge not only to remember Clayton, Jackson, and McGhie, and Max Mason, but also to try to address the injustices that we see all around us today now.

CO: So a hundred years later, in the same state of Minnesota, in Minneapolis, we saw what happened to George Floyd. Many people describe that as a lynching. What line do you draw between these two events?

KE: Well, what I can say as a prosecutor is that behaviour violated the criminal laws of our state and the facts show and we will prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was a murder and three others aided and abetted in it. It was extrajudicial. It was morally repugnant. And there's no doubt that we're still struggling to make sure everybody gets equal justice. They don't. And you want to pursue that. You know, I mean, the historical parallels are they sit before us, right? People listening and watching this story should understand that we've still got a long way to go.

CO: Attorney General Ellison, we will, of course, be following what happens in Minneapolis. And I appreciate speaking with you about this story today. Thank you.

KE: Thank you. Thank you very much.

CH: Keith Ellison is the attorney general of Minnesota. We reached him in Duluth.

[Music]

Patrick Hutchinson

CH: In the photo, Patrick Hutchinson, a black man, is seen walking away from an angry crowd of people carrying a white man over his shoulder. It happened at a Black Lives Matter protest in London, England yesterday. And that injured man is suspected of being a far-right demonstrator. Peaceful anti-racism protests took place across the city on Sunday, but a violent scuffle broke out when far-right groups clashed with protesters and police. Over 100 people were arrested. It was during that scuffle that Patrick Hutchinson sprang into action. Here he is describing that moment to the BBC.

PATRICK HUTCHINSON: We did what we had to do. We stopped somebody from being killed, basically. I didn't see what was actually going on at first. Pierre was much closer to the scene and also Jermaine, I think. And they had seen that there was a bit of an altercation at the top of the stairs between the far-right EDL hooligan, football hooligans, whatever you want to call them, and some of the Black Lives Matters protesters. So it looks as though the hooligans got dispersed, leaving one man standing. And unfortunately for him, everybody set upon him. It was a bit of a melee on the stairs. The guy ended up on the floor and these guys rushed into to stop him from getting trampled. I scooped him up into like a fireman's carry, sort of marched him out with the guys around me protecting me and shielded me and protecting this guy from getting, you know, getting any further punishment. They were still trying to hit him as we were leaving the scene. I wasn't thinking. I was just thinking of, you know, a human being on the floor. It wasn't going to end well had we not intervened, and that was it. I had another no other thoughts in my mind, apart from getting him to safety.

CH: That was Patrick Hutchinson, a protester who saved a suspected far-right demonstrator during a rally in London, England, yesterday.

[Music]

The name Russell

CH: The township of Russell in eastern Ontario is considering a name change proactively or retroactively. Russell Township was named after Peter Russell. About 200 years ago, he was a high ranking government official. He was also a slave owner. Now, some people in the area are petitioning to change the name. Others have signed a counter petition to keep it. And the mayor, Pierre Leroux, has an idea of his own. This morning, he explained his thinking to CBC Ottawa's Stu Mills.

PIERRE LEROUX: You know, it's not just the village name or the township name, it's all the businesses that have Russell in their name. All the social organizations. You know, when you think of the Russell lines for 75 years, the Russell King Club, the Russell Fire Department, the Russell Restaurant, Russell spa. These are all businesses and organizations that have a proud history. And if you change the town name, what do you say to these organizations? By default, their name is based on the same individual. So, you know, you put them in an awkward position. Well, what message are you sending if they decide to keep their name?

STUL MILLS: So you're bringing up this topic of Russell at a council meeting tonight. What's your idea? What are you going to propose?

PIERRE LEROUX: So I'm essentially proposing that we acknowledge that, you know, Peter Russell was a bad guy. He doesn't share the values of our population now or even then, I think. And that we're looking to choose a new namesake. You know, I see it as a community building event where people would be able to submit names and maybe have open houses to discuss all the different proposals that people have submitted and have really our community choose who they want to be the representative who stands for us. It could be somebody local, it could be somebody international. I've been getting flooded with names since this idea came out.

STUL MILLS: To clarify someone whose surname is still Russell, but not this Peter Russell, is that what you are hoping people suggest?

PIERRE LEROUX: It could be first, middle, last name, Russell. There's so many. You know, I've had people sending me and, you know, all races, all genders. Bertrand Russell. I've seen Russell, I believe, Bannock who was a World War Two fighter pilot. There's so many positive people named Russell, more than I was expecting, to be honest. There is minimal costs and I see the upside as a community building event. You know, in school teaching students about who Peter Russell was and why we're looking to change the name. And, you know, it could be celebrated as a yearly event. You know, you have Russell Day where you highlight the past of Peter Russell and the day that the municipality decided or the community decided that we didn't want this person as our namesake. We chose somebody new.

CH: That was Pierre Leroux, the mayor of Russell, Ontario, speaking with CBC Ottawa's Stu Mills earlier today.

[Music]

From our archives: Dr Moose

CH: For humans, legends of werewolves go back centuries. But among forest creatures, tales of another mythical creature go back just a few decades. Although to this day, those forest creatures still chirp eerie stories of the Weremoose. Unlike our werewolf stories, at least 60 percent of which are hogwash, this mythical seeming beast is real. In fact, the weremoose himself is pretty upfront about his frequent transformations. His name is Vince Crichton, but he's also known as Doc Moose. For years, Dr. Crichton would put on a giant moose head and just hang out among the moose who were surprisingly none the wiser, which enabled him to get firsthand experience of some of their most intimate behaviours. And I mean intimate. In 1999, he spoke with Mary Lou Finlay about his sexy adventures.

MARY LOU FINLAY: Hi Dr. Crichton.

VINCE CRICHTON: Hi Mary Lou.

MARY LOU FINLAY: Are you wearing any moose antlers at the moment?

VINCE CRICHTON: No, I'm not wearing them right now [laughs]. But I'm just getting things all ready to go out and wear them tonight or wear them tomorrow.

MARY LOU FINLAY: Are you?

VINCE CRICHTON: Yeah. I'm going to go to the bush tonight. Just bought myself a fancy new digital video camera here. So I want to go out and give her a go tomorrow.

MARY LOU FINLAY: Well, tell us what you'll be wearing.

VINCE CRICHTON: The moose rut is still on. So I'm going to be wearing the artificial moose head that I have. And it's a fairly large had made out of Styrofoam that includes the head and part of the neck. And I wear that on my chest. And there's a rather large set of antlers that attach to the top of the head. And that'll be my costume for tomorrow as I'm wandering through the bush, you know, trying to follow moose and just learn a little more about them.

MARY LOU FINLAY: Now you wear this head and antlers on your chest. The moose think you're another moose?

VINCE CRICHTON: Absolutely. Absolutely. Especially the bulls. They just focus right in on those antlers. The younger bulls, their status is not as high in the moose world. They are a little bit intimidated by me. I just have to rock and roll a little bit and start approaching them and, you know, beating the bush a little bit with the antlers and the shoulder blade that I carry from a moose and I can put the run on them. But the larger bulls that are the same social rank as me and maybe even bigger, it's a little different story. I usually throw the white flag about 30 feet or so and back off. And soon as I do it, they'll snap out of this hypnotic trance they're in and, you know, kind of come back down to earth a bit.

MARY LOU FINLAY: But they think your rival bull moose.

VINCE CRICHTON: Absolutely.

MARY LOU FINLAY: That must be fun for you.

VINCE CRICHTON: Yeah, it is. It is. It's a lot of fun and it is a great way to follow and to learn more about these fascinating animals. And it's a great way to get up close and get some really good photographs and video of them.

MARY LOU FINLAY: How close do you get?

VINCE CRICHTON: I've had some of them. And when I've just been standing there even without the head on, but I have been following them all throughout the day and I've had them get up from sleeping and walked within five feet of me. And I haven't moved. They just stood there and fed. And, you know, it's quite an experience. But wearing the head, I would not approach that close.

MARY LOU FINLAY: You might get into some trouble?

VINCE CRICHTON: Right. I don't go inside their critical area, their zone around them. If they're going to get that close to me, five, six, 10 feet, I let them come to me, not me to them. Otherwise, you know, I'm just asking for trouble and I've been down that road before.

MARY LOU FINLAY: You've got into serious trouble occasionally?

VINCE CRICHTON: Oh yeah. This cow moose put me down about 1990 when I was in the bush and photographing with one of the fellows I work with. And I came very close to losing my life.

MARY LOU FINLAY: What happened?

VINCE CRICHTON: Well she had a calf with her and we were following her and everything was going good and that. She was out in the marsh and the calf was starting to nurse. And I was standing upright. And I'm fairly big, I'm over six and a half feet. I was standing upright.

MARY LOU FINLAY: Wearing your antlers?

VINCE CRICHTON: No. I didn't have the antlers yet. And I bent down off a hammock to take a picture. And when I bent over, I went into a predator pose and she turned on me and I didn't have a chance to jump in the lake. And she hit me in the middle of the back and knocked me down and then proceeded to just pummel me with her front feet. And a friend, this fellow, was with me, he was able to capture it all on 35 millimetre film. And looking at an after, I think the thing that saved me was that we were in the deep mud and every time she hit me, she kept sinking deeper into the mud. And I think she eventually just backed off. But I was very lucky.

MARY LOU FINLAY: You were very lucky that she didn't hit your head.

VINCE CRICHTON: Oh, absolutely. And I have to tell you, I had many many bruises on my legs and my back from it. But fortunately and I was most fortunate, she didn't catch me in the head otherwise, you know, it might have been a lot more serious consequences.

MARY LOU FINLAY: Do you carry a gun with you?

VINCE CRICHTON: Oh, no.

MARY LOU FINLAY: Nothing like that.

VINCE CRICHTON: No, nothing like that. The only thing I carry with me right now is I carry a can of bear spray with me. And I don't know whether it would work on moose or not, but if I ever did get in a situation, I could resort to using that.

MARY LOU FINLAY: Now, when you're walking around with moose, following them around, what do they actually do.

VINCE CRICHTON: During the summer period -- and the only time I use it is during the breeding period in the fall, any other time of the year, other than during birthing in the spring, which is a rather interesting phenomenon, they're just basically eating sleeping machines. Hey there. They're eating and sleeping and trying to replenish the stuff that they've lost over the course of the winter. Put new beef on. But during the rutting period, what they're doing, especially the bulls, they're testing rival bulls. They're beating their antlers. So I'll follow them and watch them do this. I'll watch them make the wallows, which is absolutely most fascinating.

MARY LOU FINLAY: What's that?

VINCE CRICHTON: Well, what the bulls do is that they'll make a wallow, dig up the earth with their front feet and then they'll urinate in it. And I call it "De de Moose." It's bull moose urine. And it is a very very strong odor from breeding bulls. And they splash their feet in it and they'll get it on the underneath side of their antlers, the bell. Then they'll lay in it and, you know, get up in a different direction. And this urine is very very attractive to female moose.

MARY LOU FINLAY: Is it?

VINCE CRICHTON: Yeah. And I followed one here about ten days ago, a very large bull. And I got some beautiful video of him. It was just absolutely spectacular to watch this performance. But they'll do this quite frequently during the breeding period to perfume themselves.

MARY LOU FINLAY: And the cow moose just come running.

VINCE CRICHTON: Cow moose come running I'll tell you. They literally do come running. I was standing in a meadow and a bull was in front of me and he made the wallow. And when he was making the wallow, the cow and a calf were standing 45 of my paces away from him and they were just feeding. And the minute that he finished urinating and started splashing his feet in it, they came on the dead run and they ran about five feet by me, went right over to the wallow, plopped down in it, and the moaning and groaning that was going on was absolutely phenomenal.

MARY LOU FINLAY: What does it sound like?

VINCE CRICHTON: The bull gives that deep guttural grunting. [Makes noise] But a cow, it's a whining. And some of them are whining. Some of it's a long moan. [Makes noise] And there's all sorts of variations to it. And I've been able to capture some of them, but not all of them.

MARY LOU FINLAY: They're not quiet lovers at all.

VINCE CRICHTON: Absolutely not. They are very very vocal.

CH: From 1999, that was our former host, Mary Lou Finlay, speaking with Dr. Vince Crichton, who was also known as Doc Moose.

[Music]

Part 3: This bear is one of the oldest grizzlies in the wild — and she just had 4 new cubs

Vicki Wood obit

Guest: Neil Wood

CH: Vicki Wood was a fast learner, but she was also just fast. Ms. Wood was a trailblazer in auto racing who broke records and gender barriers. She began her career racing against women, but soon enough, she was competing against men in NASCAR events at 150 miles per hour. By the time she left the track behind, she'd earned nearly 50 trophies. Vicki Wood died earlier this month. She was 101 years old. Back in 2015, Ms. Wood reflected on her historic career with reporter Karen Myers.

VICKI WOOD: I was winning some, of course. And I wasn't winning them all. But the boys, the top boys, come over and said, Vicki since you're too good to drive with those girls, why don't you come and race with us men? He says, I'd rather race with you than with half of these boys that we have here. And I did pretty well. And they even gave me pointers about the race and so forth. But I did like the drive.

CH: From 2015, that was a race car driver, Vicki Wood. Neil Wood is NIel her grandson. We reached him in Boston.

CO: Neil first of all, I'm so sorry for your loss of your grandmother.

NEIL WOOD: Thank you Carol. I appreciate that. She was loved by so many.

CO: We just heard your grandmother talking about her career on the track as a woman. Did she tell you why she got into racing in the first place?

NW: Well, she would go to the races with my grandfather. And one night she watched the women race, it was called the Powderpuff, before the men race.

CO: Oh [chuckles].

NW: And she looked at my grandfather and said, oh, my God, if I couldn't drive better than that, there's no way I'd be in a car racing around a track. They were crashing into each other. They were hitting the walls. So the following week when they showed up at the race, my grandfather said, Okay, smarty pants, let's go to the pit. I have a car for you. You're entered into tonight's race. And she relished it because she grew up with -- I think it was six brothers. They were always tinkering with cars and that was part of her comfort zone. She knew how to drive them and she knew what to do with them.

CO: And so your grandpa, her husband, said you give this a try. She was in her 30s by then, wasn't she?

NW: Yes, she was. And she did so well so quickly against all the women. One of the race directors said, why don't you race against the men? Her attitude was yeah let's go.

CO: But what was it like? When she first got behind the wheel and began to drive that fast, what was the thrill? What got her hooked?

NW: You know, I think it comes down to this, she loved her family, she loved life, she loved people, and she loved smiling. And this was exhilarating for her and the opportunity to race against the men and to see if she could set new records for speed records on Daytona Beach. It just did something to her. It was exciting. Her passion came out and she was a natural.

CO: She obviously also really liked to win because she did quite a bit of that, didn't she?

NW: Oh God. [Chuckles] She did. When she was inducted into the Hall of Fame, the Michigan Motor Sports Hall of Fame, last November, one of my favourite comments was "I raced against a hundred men and I beat them all." [Chuckles] And she was so proud.

CO: Let's talk about the one extraordinary record that she broke on Daytona Beach and the beach speedway. Tell us about that.

NW: Well, fortunately, she had some people -- some of the guys took her under their wing and taught her some skills in terms of where to make a move and how to make a move. And she was a great student and she simply listened to their direction, did what they encouraged her to do, and rode 150 miles an hour. And think about the cars back then. They were steel, right. They were so heavy. And one of the favourite stories that she shared with me, she said, I get to have a car one day after I won the race and a reporter came up to me and asked, "Why do you race in a skirt and a beautiful blouse and a kerchief around your neck when all the other men are in, you know, racing gear?" She said, "Well, I knew I would probably win. And you'd want to interview me. So I wanted to look really good." [Laughter]

CO: So that Daytona Beach going 150 miles on sand and setting that record. Also, a number of others: beating the clock against all these other men. What did the men think of her winning against them all the time?

NW: Most men really encouraged her. And there were a couple who did not like being beaten by a woman. I don't know how they felt about getting beaten by anybody. But I remember there was one guy she told me about who said women are not allowed to race. And the race director said "She's a racer, not a woman. She's a race car driver. And that's the way I want you to look at her." And I thought that was wonderful.

CO: Because they didn't like women in the pits, did they?

NW: No. Right. Right. Exactly.

CO: But she raced between 1953 when your grandfather put her up to it to 1963. Ten years she did that, she won 48 trophies. Why did she stop?

NW: Unfortunately, there were so many men who were upset that they were getting beaten by Grandma Vicki, that they spoke to the race director and said, if she's racing, we won't enter the race. So she just decided to step away. She had lived a great life for 10 years on the track. And felt, you know what? I've accomplished everything I've wanted to accomplish. And I don't want to cause trouble. I'll step away now.

CO: Was it hard for her to do?

NW: It was. She loved racing. It was just so easy for her and exciting.

CO: Another encounter she had in 2014, she met another woman who's broken records on the race track: Danica Patrick. The only woman to win an IndyCar series race. What did the two of them share when they were together?

NW: Well, they were so proud of each other. And grandma talked to her and said, The speeds you are driving at I can't even fathom. And Danica was so sweet to her and said, because of people like you I have the opportunity to race against men. Because Grandma Vicki was a trailblazer. And Danica was so appreciative of that.

CO: And yet Danica is still an exception, isn't she? What would your grandmother have said to encourage women to go into racing?

NW: Pursue your dreams. If this is something you've always wanted to do, go for it. You have nothing to lose, everything to gain. And you never know what you're capable of doing until you try.

CO: She was also your grandmother, so she wasn't just a trailblazer on the track, is there any particular memory that you could share with us?

NW: Oh, at the Hall of Fame induction. We were sitting right next to each other and she leaned over and she said, "Neil, I've been waiting 65 years for this moment. And I'm so grateful that you are here to share this with me." The thought of waiting 65 years for something so special, it just made her heart glow. And that made me happy for her.

CO: I understand she received her only speeding ticket for driving her car when she was 99 years old.

NW: [Laughter] Well, I don't know if she got a speeding ticket. She said she never had one, but I've driven with her even when she was in her 90s, she was a terrific driver.

CO: [Laughter] I'm sure she was. Neil, thank you so much for sharing your memories of your grandmother with us.

NW: My pleasure. Thank you so much Carol.

CH: Neil Wood is the grandson of the late race car driver Vicki Wood, who died earlier this month. We reached Mr. Wood in Boston.

[Music]

Maria Ressa

CH: Maria Ressa is used to breaking news. But today, not for the first time, the award-winning journalist is the news. Ms. Ressa, a colleague, and her online news site Rappler, were convicted of libel in a case being cast as a verdict on press freedom in the Philippines. The case centres on a 2012 story linking a prominent businessman to murder, drug dealing, and human trafficking. But the libel complaint wasn't filed until five years after the story was published, which Ms. Ressa's lawyers argued exceeded the statute of limitations. Today, Maria Ressa described her conviction as a cautionary tale meant to intimidate Filipinos and the press. Here she is speaking to the BBC.

MARIA RESSA: I have eight criminal charges. I've been arrested and detained. You know, I've gone through the wringer on this. So, yes, I'm convicted today. But I also think that I'm not the only one. Rappler and I weren't the only ones on trial. I think what you're seeing is death by a thousand cuts, not just of press freedom, but of democracy. Our justice system was on trial today and it just joined the kind of messaging that was pushed out on social media in 2016: Journalists equals criminal. The justice system just took a little bit longer to catch up. And here we go. There's lots of legal acrobatics to even get this case to court, considering that the piece we're talking about was published before the crime we allegedly committed had even been enacted into law. I mean, essentially what they did was to say that by when Rappler changed a typographical error, that we republished an article -- that's a normal theory for online media. That by just changing an article, you republished it. And then there's something else that affects every Filipino with this decision, they're essentially saying that the period of prescription, the statute of limitations for the crime of libel has shifted from 1 year to 12 years. I mean, there's so many problematic instances in this decision. It is certainly a press freedom issue. It needs to be seen in the context of the Philippines today, not just the repeated attacks against Rappler and on me, but also the shutdown of the largest broadcaster in the Philippines, ABS-CBN just last May.

CH: That's journalist Maria Ressa speaking to the BBC. Today, Maria Ressa, her online news site Rappler, and one of her colleagues were convicted of libel in the Philippines and sentenced up to six years in jail. They plan to appeal.

[Music]

Bear 399

Guest: Tom Mangelsen

CH: She's one of the most famous bears in the world with a Twitter handle and a Facebook page and thousands of followers. At 24, she's also believed to be one of the oldest bears living in the wild. Her name is 399. And she lives in Grand Teton National Park in Wyoming,. Given her advanced age, no one knew if she had survived this past winter. People in the park spent weeks anxiously waiting to see if she would emerge. And finally, photographer and conservationist Tom Mangelsen did spot her. To his surprise, she wasn't alone. We reached Mr. Mangelsen in Grand Teton National Park.

CO: Tom, it's good to hear that 399 is alive and well. I understand she was not alone. Who did you see with her when you took the photo?

TOM MANGELSEN: You know, surprisingly, she was with four new cubs, we call them Cubs of the Year. They are maybe three or four pounds when they came. It was a huge surprise for everyone because at 24 years old most people didn't think she would possibly have any more cubs at all. I was optimistic that she would have another set of triplets. She's had three sets of triplets so far. But I would never believed in that.

CO: Well, to have four. She's a grandmother at this point, right?

TM: She is. Yes, she is.

CO: And so she's had four babies at her age. Pretty good. And how is she looking? How are mom and the children appearing?

TM: Well, she looks great. I noticed in a couple of pictures when she was standing up that her lower teeth were quite worn, but her canines which is important are still in good shape. But you can tell, her teeth are like most people that get to that age. I'm 74 so my teeth are kind of worn down.

CO: And the babies all are good? The cubs are good?

TM: The four cubs -- first of all it's really rare to have four cubs for grizzly bears. And one of the four cubs was kind of a smallish. I was kind of worried about that one at first. When I saw it I thought this was probably maybe difficult to survive, but so far so good.

CO: And I understand that Jane Goodall wanted to know if Bear 399 had survived the winter. You texted her?

TM: Yeah, I did text and I called a little bit later. And she's been very interested. I've known Jane for about 22 years or so. And she's kept up with my love of 399. And she's seen 399 a number of years ago when I took her out to the park and she was thrilled that this bear has lived this long and has gotten this huge following pretty much from all around the world.

CO: And some of the photos of 399, I mean, this is a spectacular animal and you've taken those photos over the years. You've written a book about her: Grizzlies of Pilgrim Creek. So, yes, she is world famous. But for you following her all these years, what's so special about this bear for you personally?

TM: I think the fact that she shows all the characteristics or behaviours that we would like to see in wild animals. She's still a wild bear, even though she's in a national park. You know, she's has to traverse basically millions of visitors every year. And so far, she hasn't been fed or conditioned to seek food and campsites from cars and people throwing stuff at her. So she got lucky in that way and she doesn't seem to pay much attention to people other than just avoiding them.

CO: But that probably puts her in some danger, does it not? I mean, that she is comfortable around humans, it can lead to problems for her?

TM: Well, it is sort of a double edged sword. Large bears or typically male bears don't come to the roadside because they're more afraid of people than she is. So she finds comfort being around people, I think, and knows that they're not going to harm her where in the backcountry maybe a large male bear may kill her cub or arm her cubs.

CO: And the issue, though, most of the grizzly bears are quite elusive, they don't want a lot of limelight, but they weren't endangered species back in the 70s -- at the time it was only 150 of them. Now, grizzlies, more than 700. So are you seeing a thriving bear population despite the fact that there are those who'd like to see those numbers reduced?

TM: Well, you know, they were down to 150 bears in the Greater Yellowstone system. That's why they put them on the endangered species list. So their population now is around 750 bears. But that number has pretty much flattened out the last three years. So it's not a success story. You know, we still have thousands of grizzly bears in the lower 48 and across pretty much most of the US.

CO: I guess there are those who don't like the bears quite as much as you do, the farmers and the people who think that they are a threat to humans and to human habitats. What do you say to them?

TM: You know, I think if anybody learns and watches a bear like 399 they can't help but believe that she is intelligent, sentient, and has emotions much like we do. She walks up to the highway. She looks both ways, sees if any cars are coming and she'll lead the cubs across the highway. Sometimes when the cubs are left on the other side of the highway, she will tell them to stay there. That kind of behaviour is pretty rare. And I think that's amazing to me. And I've learned it from her. I saw my first grizzly bear in Teton Park in 2006. And then that fall, I saw 399 and her cubs. Ever since I've been pretty much addicted to watching her and seeing that she has incredible behaviours and takes care of the cubs and leads them 40 miles across a landscape looking for different foods.

CO: Well, she's absolutely an addictive personality there that you are photographing in bear 399. And Tom thanks for telling us about her.

TM: You're very welcome.

CH: Tom Mangelsen is a photographer and conservationist from Jackson, Wyoming. We reached him in Grand Teton National Park, where he took a photo of the grizzly bear 399.

[Music]

Raine Island turtles

Guest: Andy Dunstan

CH: If you're about to give birth. The last thing you want is to be stuck in a traffic jam. But if you're a green sea turtle heading to Raine Island, that's the deal. Every nesting season, the small island on the northern Great Barrier Reef is swarmed with female turtles looking to lay their eggs. Until recently, it wasn't clear quite how crowded the rookery actually is. Now, using drones, researchers have captured stunning footage of the eager mothers to be. And they've also realized the population is much larger than previously thought. Andy Dunstan is with the Raine Island Recovery Project at the Queensland Department of Environment and Science. He's also the lead author of new research on the island's turtle population. We reached Mr. Dunstan in Brisbane, Australia.

CO: Andy just for those who have not seen this remarkable drone footage, just describe the scene that you captured.

ANDY DUNSTAN: Yeah, well, this is right up in the very very far north of the Great Barrier Reef, right out on the edge of the ocean, coming up out of about 300 metres deep of clear water, the reef surrounded by 64,000 turtles. And it's just amazing.

CO: And they are in the water, right? They are swimming at this point.

AD: They are. And, yeah, sort of it looks a bit like, I don't know, a whole sea of small cockroaches.

CO: Well, you say cockroaches, they also look like a whole bunch of frogs because they're so green. Emerald green. But they're huge, right?

AD: They are. They're huge. At 1.2 metres across and about 180 kilos each. So this is an amazing aggregation. And also the thing to remember with this is you're looking at a 3D image, if you look down through the water at this, what you're seeing at the surface, there's turtles all the way underneath them down to 10-15 metres.

CO: So what went through your mind when you saw that sea of turtles?

AD: It was just fantastic to see how far afield from the reef that they did go and just the density around so much of the reef, because I've driven and done similar things in trying to count these from a boat at the surface. And you get some idea of that, but you don't get the concept of it like you do from the drone in the air.

CO: When you say 64,000, is that account that you can accurately do from the air?

AD: Yeah, absolutely. We don't have to account every turtle. What we do is we paint 2000 turtles on a night before while we're nesting on the beach. And then the turtles will all be off the beach the next day. And then we go around with the drone, count enough turtles to get the ratio between painted and painted turtles to make that estimate.

CO: They don't mind being painted?

AD: No. Well, it's a nontoxic paint that washes off in a few days.

CO: And what else has this told you about turtle populations? Is it encouraging that there are such numbers?

AD: Yeah, look, it is. To be able to count that many turtles and have it actually increase our estimates by about 75 percent, has been fantastic. We do know also accurately that the hatching success of the turtles on the beach and the hatchling outputs from how many turtles are there is not that great. And that's why we're putting a lot of work in at the island to try and turn that around. But it is reassuring that we have that many turtles and we still have time to be able to turn that reproduction around to make sure that it sustains into the future.

CO: You have been on Raine Island when the turtles are there to nest, right?

AD: Absolutely. I've been there a number of times through the season, nesting and hatching times to do the research.

CO: What's it like to hang out with all those green turtles?

AD: Oh, it's just magnificent. I mean, you know, the lap around the island where we do counts of the turtles at about 8:30 at night and then up nesting and lap of two kilometres around the whole island, counting turtles up to nest on the beach and virtually no sand because there was just covered with turtles.

CO: And so despite the numbers of green turtles you're seeing there, they're still quite vulnerable, aren't they?

AD: Absolutely. They're endangered. And that's why we're putting the work in. This is the only major aggregation nesting place in the world for the green turtles. And it's one of the few major healthy remaining populations. And even though it's still suffering from this hatching failure and a range of other things.

CO: And the hatching failure is caused by what?

AD: Well, a lot of it is inundation into the nests as the beaches changed over the years. So we've put the beach back and raised it up so that in the major areas of the beach now the nests are all laid beneath the sand, but well above the inundation level. So that's helped raise hatchling numbers a lot. But also on the island, the adults coming up to nest, a lot of them hundreds a year, have been dying on the beach after nesting from getting up onto a small cliff that's at the back of the beach and falling over onto their backs, not being able to get back over. So we've been able to put up a small fence and totally stop the cliff fall deaths and rescue turtles. So, you know, saving hundreds and hundreds a year when we're there.

CO: We've interviewed a number of people about what's going on in the Great Barrier Reef and the area around it and just how troubled so many species and the reef itself is. Do you see any hope for recovering some of this or arresting some of that climate change and shipping everything else? Are you at all hopeful?

AD: Oh, look, I'm an optimist as a rule. And the work that's going on is quite incredible. I mean, it is world leading in a lot of these things. And that's across the board. I mean, some of the work that we're doing in particularly in partnership with the traditional owners and the Indigenous groups up and around the reef areas is fabulous. And so I'm sure there will be changes in the reef from climate change and coral bleaching, but also the ability to be in the best position to do something and provide the resilience to help the reef cope is really, I think, the way to go.

CO: Well, I hope we can share your optimism about that. And it's good to talk to you Andy and hear about the green turtles. Thank you.

AD: Thank you very much Carol. Bye.

CH: Andy Dunstan is with the Raine Island Recovery Project at the Queensland Department of Environment and Science. He's also the lead author of new research on the island's turtle population. We reached Mr. Dunstan in Brisbane, Australia.

[Music]

Youppi!

CH: Professional sports may still be on hold. But there is big news in the world of sports mascots, albeit bittersweet news for Montreal Expos fans. Youppi!, the beloved orange googly eyed Montreal mascot who is so exciting his name comes with an exclamation mark, has been inducted into the mascot Hall of Fame.

VOICE: And with that, I, Reggy The Purple Party Dude, as the official spokesperson of the Mascot Hall of Fame proudly welcome Blue, Boomer, The Oriole Bird, Youppi! In as the newest member of the Mascot Hall of Fame. Cue the confetti. Sound the horns. And help me celebrate.

CH: Youppi! Is the first mascot from a Canadian based team to receive the honour. He's also the first two-sport mascot. He started off, as I mentioned, with the Expos, but was traded to the Habs in 2005 when the Expos left town. He was also the first official mascot to be ejected from a Major League Baseball game. On August 23rd, 1989, during a particularly long game, Youppi put on his pjs and lay down on top of the opponent's dugout. Shortly thereafter, he was tossed. Given his storied career, it boggles the mind and google's the eyes that it took the Hall of Fame so long to recognize him. But I must say, to see him reach such heights now, well, it's probably enough to make a mascot plush.

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June 15, 2020 Episode Transcript

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