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The AIH Transcript for June 12, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I’m Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Money for nothing. Ontario Securities Commission says a Bitcoin trading house that once seemed like the future of finance was little more than a plain old fraud. That leaves our guests with little hope of recovering his life savings.

CO: In the zone. Protesters in Seattle have staked out any autonomous zone that's operating largely without police. And if you believe protesters, outside any top down civic structure as well. A city councillor explains why they've got her support.

CH: As the pressure mounts to knock troubling statues off their pedestals, Scotland's first black professor tells us he's not in favour of the trend.

CO: The stuff of dreams. Italian neurosurgeons operate on a patient. Meanwhile, the patient patiently works away, crafting green olives stuffed with ham and fried with breadcrumbs.

CH: And... Spitting distance. From the archives, interviews with people who fired things out of their mouths farther than you might think possible. Given their success, you’d have been smart to put your money where their mouths were, but not your body. Because some of them were spitting crickets.

CH: As It Happens, the Friday edition. Radio that expectorates the unexpected.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: BC overdoses, CHAZ zone, Scottish statues

BC overdoses

Guest: Lisa Lapointe

CH: In British Columbia, 167 people have died of COVID-19. The province has been praised for its handling of the outbreak. But on another public health crisis, the numbers aren't as good.

In the month of May alone, there were 170 suspected illicit drug deaths in B.C. It's the highest monthly total ever recorded. And the overdose death statistics were released yesterday by the BC Coroners Service. Lisa Lapointe is the province's chief coroner. We reached her in Victoria.

CO: Ms. Lapointe, how did the month of May become the worst ever for illicit drug deaths in your province?

LISA LAPOINTE: Well, it's tragic. The numbers are so disappointing and so sad. And, of course, the numbers, we saw 170 deaths due to illicit substances in May. Represent 170 people who were much loved by their families and their friends and their colleagues. And we don't lose sight of that because we as coroners, we work with those families and we see those families every day. And the heartbreak that this province has experienced as a result of the overdose crisis has been immense.

CO: And can you just give us a better sense of who the people are who have died of these overdoses in British Columbia?

LL: Yes. So primarily it's men in their 20s, 30s, 40s, primarily dying alone. That is one of the most significant risk factors. So they are found sometime later by a family or a friend who are concerned about their welfare. We know that they come from all walks of life. So, you know, we know there is a common misperception that it's only the Downtown Eastside of Vancouver. But in fact, we have people dying in all of our communities, from the rural communities, the urban communities, from professional occupations to health care occupations to those in labour fields and the unemployed. It's just a cross-section of people who are dying from this illness.

CO: I just want to get a sense of what may have contributed to this? And one of the things that you have cited is the extreme concentrations of fentanyl, that the toxicity of the drugs that you have found in people's systems. How do you account for that?

LL: Yes, that's one of the things that we've noticed most recently, is the fentanyl certainly is more toxic. And one of the reasons we're speculating is the supply chain disruption due to the pandemic, of course, and the closing of international borders and international travel. And we know that local supply has kicked in. And there is no shortage of fentanyl available, illicit fentanyl, I should add, available. And the production of that, of course, is quite hit or miss, not necessarily very scientific, and not in regulated labs, of course. And there's no quality control in the production of illicit substances. And so we feel that plays a significant role, particularly where we see a small spike in a community where four or five people dying within a short period of time, or we recently saw three deaths at the same time in the same location. But we also feel that, you know, the role of social isolating, of necessity to prevent deaths due to COVID-19 has played a role where people are alone, and more and more people alone, and using substances alone. So we feel that plays a fairly significant role as well.

CO: What are the other reasons why the way we're dealing with COVID-19 may have contributed to these deaths?

LL: Some of the measures that were implemented to address the overdose crisis in BC. So the provision of naloxone, the overdose prevention centres, supervised consumption sites, the availability of those places has been diminished due to some of the impacts of the pandemic. So really, for those of vulnerable people, who need substances which are already dangerously difficult to get, it has really only exacerbated their situation.

CO: Have any of the deaths happened at the safe consumption sites?

LL: No, we have never had a death in B.C. at an overdose prevention site or a safe consumption site. There are overdoses at those sites, of course, but the safety factor is that staff are there to immediately provide support, call 9-1-1, get folks medical assistance. So those certainly work. And then the extensive availability of naloxone in this province has also certainly worked. But again, during this time, for those who need it, not as easily accessed. You know, shorter hours, less staff at the place of support, which is understandable. And again, really comes down to safe supply. This supply of illicit substances is not safe, and we need to ensure safe supply for those folks who need the substances.

CO: You have said that you think that the federal government needs to step up and take very bold action in order to deal with this. What is it that you want the federal government to do?

LL: So I can't help but draw the parallel between in BC, the overdose epidemic is a public health emergency; it was declared in 2016. And, of course, the COVID-19 pandemic is also a public health emergency. And the response is, of course, the response to the pandemic was immediate, compassionate. Certainly, in this province for sure, very compassionate, education, testing, providing healthcare for those who need it. And it would be so wonderful if we saw the same response for those in our community who suffer with problematic substance use or experience problematic substance use, the ability for widespread safe testing, a compassionate response, support where they need it. Eliminating all of the stigma associated with criminalization. So well, there's certainly a lot of compassion demonstrated by our leaders, the action that needs to follow is decriminalizing these substances, removing the stigma, treating this as a medical issue, which it most certainly is.

CO: How do the deaths from the drug overdoses compare with deaths from COVID-19 in your province?

LL: So absolutely far more deaths due to substance use. This province has seen thousands of deaths due to substance use in the last four years. Fortunately, we've had under 200 deaths due to the pandemic in the last few months. So, again, you draw the parallel. Now, the potential for the pandemic to have killed hundreds and thousands of people can't cannot be underestimated. And we know that those measures were necessary. But we have the reality of thousands of people having died in this province over the past four years as a result of substances that are toxic. And unless we do something different, that will not change.

CO: Ms. Lapointe. I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

LL: Thank you, Carol. I appreciate you taking the time.

CH: Lisa Lapointe is BC's chief coroner. She's in Victoria. For more on this story, visit our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Bright, slow piano arpeggio]

CHAZ zone

Guest: Kshama Sawant

CH: In downtown Seattle, a sign that once read "Police Department" — now reads "People Department". On Tuesday, police boarded up and abandoned the city's East Precinct, essentially giving over a six-block area of the city to protestors. The area has now become a hub of protest — and a radical social experiment which is being called the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone, or Chaz. Seattle's police chief, Carmen Best, believes the experiment is misguided at best. Here is Chief Best speaking to reporters yesterday.

[sc]

CARMEN BEST: Instead of marching, the protesters, after complaining about police barricades, established their own barricades. So the streets that we wanted to be clear, now they’re no longer clear. SPD has a responsibility to provide public safety services to the entire East Precinct, and to the city. The actions of a small group cannot, and should not, deprive an entire segment of our community from public safety services. In the first day of the SPD not having access to the precinct, response times for crimes in progress were over 15 minutes, about three times as long as the average of every year. If that is your mother, your sister, your cousin, your neighbour's kid that is being raped, robbed, assaulted and otherwise victimized, you are not going to want to have to report that it took the police three times longer to get there to provide services to them.

[/sc]

CH: That was Seattle's police chief responding to the establishment of an area of downtown which is now largely under the control of protesters, called the Capital Hill Autonomous Zone, or Chaz. Kshama Sawant is the Seattle councilmember who represents the district containing Chaz. We reached her in Seattle.

Councilmember Sawant, you heard Seattle's police chief say that the lives of people in your district were put at risk because of this Chaz zone? What do you think of that?

KSHAMA SAWANT: I find the comments from Seattle Police Chief Best an incredible example of gaslighting because it is the police department, the police force, that has inflicted horrific violence against a peaceful protest movement. Day after day, night after night, this police department has inflicted rubber bullets, mace, tear gas and other weapons against the peaceful protesters. In fact, among those who have been impacted since Saturday is a seven-year-old girl who was maced by a police officer. Despite being armed to the teeth, despite having the big-business-backed establishment on their side, the police were forced to withdraw. That's the reflection of how much solidarity there is with the movement.

CO: Is there any control on who is allowed in and out of this zone?

KS: Absolutely not. Everybody is welcome. In fact, many have posted on social media that they have taken their families and children to visit it. And that it was an incredibly positive experience. And that the children didn't want to leave because it's very safe, very friendly, very energetic, with all kinds of discussions happening about how to take the movement forward. And in fact, in the middle of all of this is the abandoned East Precinct, which was the flagship police station of the Seattle Police. And our community is demanding that that not be handed back to the police. And that as part of the “Defund Police” campaign, that we bring that building, which is in the middle of the urban core of the city into community control, and that be used for some sort of community and social purpose, like a centre for restorative justice or for providing housing. You know, there's so many things we could do with it which are going to be socially beneficial.

CO: I'll ask you more about that in a second. But just to go back to this issue of security and safety within the zone, I mean, yes, the protesters can be as you've described them. But there are people being humans being who they are. Some could get in there to take advantage of that. Are there not people who could be victims of crime? And how do you protect them?

KS: We don't pretend that this autonomous zone is going to be some sort of utopia. And in fact, it is absolutely necessary to keep building our movement to you know, to go beyond just establishing that autonomous zone. But I think if you step back and look at the statistics and, you know, speaking to you as an economist for a second, you will see that over the last ten, 20 years, in many cities, including Seattle, but not just limited to Seattle. The police department budgets have been bloated year after year. They have grown dramatically. And at the same time, crime incidences have gone down. This is not me speaking as a socialist. This is a fact.

CO: But how is it occupying the zone, having this autonomous zone? How does that go about changing any of the things you're describing? And we've seen protests across the United States, and in Canada, because of the very thing you're describing. But how does this zone, this autonomous zone, accomplish what you want to achieve?

KS: I mean, on the one hand, the autonomous zone, first of all, it represents a victory that the protest movement was able to achieve in this key battleground against police violence in the East Precinct. But it also raises the question of, you know, what now? What next after this? And so obviously, I mean, my opinion, of course, and many in the community are saying this as well. It is that we cannot rest on just having achieved this autonomous zone. Because that's not going to be a permanent thing. In fact, the police chief has issued ominous threats that she's not going to accept, and the establishment is not going to accept, that working people have just won this. They are going to try to take it back. And that's why it's critical that we politicize the movement and build the resistance around concrete demand. So one of the demands is to convert that East Precinct permanently into the hands of the community. Even that is not enough. Obviously, that's why our movement is also calling for defunding the police department by at least 50 per cent, and redirecting those funds towards community programs for restorative justice. And so it's important to do all of that. And we also need an independently elected oversight board with full powers over the police. Because the police have not been held accountable for their crimes.

CO: You mentioned the police chief, the comments about where this might go. We've also heard from the president of your country. He’s calling the protesters domestic terrorists, and saying the city council, the mayor and the police should take back your city now. If you don't do it, I will. Are you concerned at all that there will be this clash, this might lead to further violence because of these provocative statements that are around this zone?

KS: I absolutely take these threats seriously. It would be a mistake to take any threats from the right-wing, let alone from the Trump administration, lightly. I ‘m not surprised that he has issued this threat to bring in the military into Seattle, but it is an absolutely horrific idea that the military would be brought in. And I think it's precisely why, you know, your question actually right now connects to my response to your earlier question, which is that the best way to push back against the right-wing and any potential for violence by the police, again, inside the zone is to politicize our movement and continue to build broader solidarity among working people. And I'll say that the kind of solidarity that the movement has in Seattle, it's incredible. And one sign of that is this. The police chief and the Democratic Party establishment mayor, Jenny Durkan, this police violence against a protest movement lies at their doorstep. And so over the last many days, tens of thousands of Seattleites have now started calling for Democratic Party Mayor Jenny Durkin to resign. That's the kind of support the movement has. So we cannot squander this moment, but to keep building.

CO: All right. We will be following what is going on in Seattle. Councilmember Sawant, thank you so much for speaking with us.

KS: Thank you for having me.

CO: All right. Bye.

KS: Bye.

CH: Kshama Sawant is a Seattle councilmember. We reached her in Seattle.

RCMP update

GP: William Gladstone was four times prime minister.

CO: But what do you say to those who are people we have spoken with, including a man yesterday who wants Cecil Rhodes’ statue to come down in Oxford? How offensive it is to walk by and be looked down upon by somebody who didn't just have slaves, but abused people, killed them in large numbers. I mean, you as a Black man, don't you feel that offense as you walk by?

GP: No, it doesn't. In fact, I see that if my ancestors could face slave owners and fight, I can face a bit of marble or metal and fight. And I want to put on their plaques exactly what they did. So what you've just said about Rhodes, that should be on black, but it isn't. And that's the point for me. I want them to stay, and I want plaques on them. And I want them to say that Rhodes, if he killed so many people, put it on it. If Dundas gradually abolished the slave trade, so that 630-thousand people were enslaved, I want that to be put on it. I don't want it down.

CO: Here might be one problem with that.

GP: Okay.

CO: This discussion about giving context, giving historical context, to these night monuments.

GP: Right.

CO: This has been in the discussion for a long time, ever since people started wanting them removed.

GP: Right.

CO: And we see no progress on that.

GP: Absolutely.

CO: So if we say, well, okay, well, let's just leave them up and eventually we'll get around to that plaque you want. We don't see evidence that that is happening. So what gives you any confidence that there is a spirit of actually giving context to these characters?

GP: Well, we've just done it in Edinburgh. It's taken five days. Basically because of the killing of George Floyd in America, and the general mood of the public. It took me three years with a committee, and we achieved nothing. Because of that terrible death, and because now of greater awareness of what Henry Dundas did, the council sat down by phone, of course. And in one hour, agreed on a wording for that plaque. And it's going on, not plaque that Henry Dundas gradually abolished the slave trade for fifteen years, during which period over half-a-million people were transported into slavery. And I hope that’ll be on it forever.

CO: It seems that when there are people like yourself who can move this along and are respected within the institutions, it happens. The man we spoke with yesterday about Cecil Rhodes, he refers to Lord Patton, who is the chancellor of Oxford University, who doesn't see any problem with leaving the Cecil Rhodes statue up there. He says that it's hypocrisy, since Rhodes is also contributed greatly through his scholarship. So how confident are you that there are people like yourself who can see this through to getting the plaque actually mounted?

GP: Well, this is what I think is important, that we need people. You know, I've been working on this for some time, you know, probably on my own. But I think you see other people, whether it's in Oxford or in Bristol, where they took that statue down. The point is now what next after you remove it? You know, I feel that if they took it down and the government says we're going to, you know, make significant changes in racism, then I would say I would start considering it. But we've taken two statues down here. Let's take racism down next.

CO: You mentioned about that George Floyd being the catalyst for this.

GP: Yes.

CO: How significant do you think this moment is in the fight against systemic racism?

GP: I think that if you look at, you know, as you know, the book by James Joyce called “Ulysses” I regard it as, you know, one of the most important books written in the English language. And I was just coming through it. And I found a page where Joyce refers to a lynching of a black person called Will Brown in 1919. That's when “Ulysses” was written. And he says in there, you know, this man was hanged and lynched. And you may as well crucify him. And I think what happened in Minneapolis was a crucifixion that a black man was killed by the law, the same law that ran slavery. And I think the world saw that. And I think the public has seen that and realized there is something not not right. And I think taking down... If one thinks taking down a piece of metal is going to correct that, then we should think again.

CO: Sir Geoff, I really appreciate speaking with you. And hearing your insights into this. Thank you so much.

GP: Thank you.

CO: All right. Bye-bye.

GP: Bye-bye.

CH: Sir Geoff Palmer is a Professor Emeritus at Heriot-Watt University, in Scotland. We reached him today in Penicuik.

[Music: Indie island rock]

Olive surgery

CH: You've probably heard of patients playing musical instruments during brain surgery. It helps the doctors map their brains, and avoid damaging the pertinent areas. But during a recent surgery in Italy, the sixty-year-old patient did not fill the operating room with song. She filled a lot of smaller things with seasoned meat, and then coated them in flour, egg, and breadcrumbs. In the space of an hour, she stuffed 90 olives. Enough to feed her team of neurosurgeons when the surgery was over. Neurosurgeon Roberto Trignani spoke to the BBC, about removing a tumour from his patient's left temporal lobe, while surrounded by olives.

RT: Yes. During the operation, she prepared these olives. And this operation needs complex movements of the hands. And now, I can tell that the olives were stuffed. And I am stuffed because I eat her olives. [warm chuckle]

HOST: That was your lunch as your reward for the operation?

RT: Yes. After the operation, we hit lunch. And now, I am stuffed. And today, the patient is discharged. [both chuckle] And she will come back home to prepare other olives to us.

[/sc]

CH: That was neurosurgeonRoberto Trignani in Italy, speaking to the BBC about operating on a patient's brain tumor while she stuffed dozens of olives.

[Music: Folksy beat]

Part two: Quadriga report, watermelon and cricket spitting

Quadriga report

Guest: Tong Zou

CH: QuadrigaCX was presented as a high-tech mystery. But in a new report, the Ontario Securities Commission says it was actually just, quote, "an old-fashioned fraud." The Vancouver-based crypto-currency exchange made news in 2019, when the company announced the premature death of its founder, Gerald Cotten. The story was that Mr. Cotten had died without sharing the digitally coded keys needed to unlock investors' accounts. But as the weeks wore on, it became clear that the people who had trusted Quadriga were going to be left high and dry. Tong Zou had been using QuadrigaCX to transfer his life savings back to Canada when the company froze its accounts. We reached Mr. Zou in Vancouver.

CO: Tong, what's your reaction to this report alleging that, well, this company that you trusted with your money was actually a Ponzi scheme operated by a fraudster?

TONG ZOU: Well, I kind of already knew this before because, like, we already did some investigation ourselves. And, you know, we already looked at a lot of what Gerry Cotten did from the UI reports from Ernst and Young. Ponzi scheme was definitely something that we already considered. So that wasn't surprising to me. I guess what was surprising about what the OSC did on this report is they said that most of the money lost is the 250-million in debt, right? And over 50 per cent was apparently lost trading on the platform itself. And that was something that was kind of a news to me.

CO: What does that mean? Just maybe explain in simple English what you're talking about?

TZ: Basically, he just made these other fake traders on the platform. And he was just a bad trader. And he lost a lot of money during that. And that's where most of the losses came from.

CO: And so for you, this surprise was just learning how he did it. You knew that you'd been defrauded, but you just didn't know the details of how he pulled it off?

TZ: Yes. Yeah. I mean, we all knew he was a fraud soon after it happened. But this was kind of new, like exactly how he lost some money because previously we thought maybe he just embezzled it or he lost it on other exchanges. But it turns out it was on his own exchange. [schoff] So that was new.

CO: How much of your own money did you lose to him, if you don't mind me asking?

TZ: It was over 500-thousand dollars, and that was because I just sold my apartment in the U.S. at the time, and I just wanted to transfer my money back. And I thought this exchange was legit at the time. And I wanted to avoid using the bank, right? For those commission fees.

CO: So you wanted to change it into Bitcoin, and that he could then transfer, Quadriga, could then transfer it to a Canadian account?

TZ: Yeah, that's right.

CO: But why did you trust him? I mean, the Ontario Securities Commission is saying that there was no meaningful oversight. He wasn't accountable to anyone. There was no transparency. Why would you trust him with, I guess, all the money you had?

TZ: Well, we weren't aware of just how much power Gerry had. Like, the report definitely shows him as a one-man operation. And we didn't know that. Quadriga had been operating for five years at the time. Like, I thought it was safe enough. It was one of the biggest Canadian crypto exchanges at the time. And, you know, we just don't know all these details about him until after he died.

CO: And what became of your money, as far as you understand?

TZ: As far as I understand, it’s a Ponzi scheme. So he kept accepting deposits from other people, like even after he died, the company kept accepting it. And I'm assuming that my money went to pay out other people who withdrew.

CO: I guess we’ll never know a lot of the details because Gerald Cotton died at 30 years old, well he was on his honeymoon in India. And so there are lots of unanswered questions I'm sure you have? So you wanted to change it into Bitcoin, and that he could then transfer, Quadriga, could then transfer it to a Canadian account?

TZ: Yeah. I mean, that itself is pretty suspicious, right? At first, given his death at a young age, apparently from Crohn's disease, which is not fatal to most people. And just that it happened so suddenly in such a remote place.

CO: So you you suspect that what? That he's not dead?

TZ: I'm more leaning on he is being dead. And a lot of people think that he's not dead. But it felt to me more like there was some other thing going on here, like maybe there was a conspiracy or maybe his widow had something to do with it, or there was other accomplices.

CO: And is there any evidence that she may have been involved somehow? I mean, is the Ontario Securities Commission investigating her, as far as you know?

TZ: No, they're not investigating anyone because they pin this pretty much solely on Gerry, and he's dead, well, allegedly dead. So they're not going to investigate that.

CO: But your suspicions about his widow are just that. I mean, you don't have any evidence?

TZ No, that's just my suspicions. Right.

CO: And how has this affected you? I mean, it was just about all the money you had in that apartment. You were wanting to move to Canada. How are you doing?

TZ: I'm just trying to get by, I guess. I'm trying to build myself back up. After something like this happens to you, you gotta just keep your chin up and try to move on and get yourself back up, right? So just, yeah, working a day job and trying to save up enough money again.

CO: So what affect did this whole experience have on you then?

TZ: I learned not to put all my eggs into one basket, right? Proverbially, that was a really bad decision that it was a risk-taking decision. And I put too much trust into the company. I should've done more research into it. So I know at least as a life lesson, not to put too much trust in a company, or at least not before researching it further. And just putting all this money, like in one place, it's not good, yeah.

CO: If you could speak directly to Gerald Cotton, what would you say to him?

TZ: [sigh] Man, there's so many questions, right, about what he did. The one thing is, I don't know, it's like, was this on purpose? Was he intending to scam people from the beginning? Or was this just something that she eventually had to do to make up for his losses under the platform? That's the thing. Was it from a scam from the beginning? Or was it, you know, just turned into one later on? Is what I want to ask.

CO: And are you angry with him?

TZ: Of course. Like, I think most people are, right? Because he was appropriating customers’ money and using it to gamble. And, you know, people didn’t know that, right? So he was committing fraud at that point.

CO: Well, Tong, I'm sorry that this has all happened to you. And I hope you get, well, back on your feet, and that you recover from this. Thank you for speaking with us.

TZ: Okay. Great. Thank you.

CO: Bye.

TZ: All right. Bye

CH: Tong Zou is a software engineer. We reached him in Vancouver.

[Music: Glassy guitar riffs]

Reading: Adam Pottle

CH: We are living in absurd times. Simultaneously confined to our homes and compelled to leave them to work, to protest, or to go to hospital if we are sick. And for Adam Pottle all that strangeness — that surrealism — is heightened. Mr. Pottle is an award-winning author and playwright from Saskatoon, who was born deaf in both ears. His new short story," Zero Through the Looking Glass", works to capture the horror and the humour of living through a pandemic when you're deaf. Its protagonist goes by the name "Zero" — and is hospitalized after a suicide attempt. In this excerpt, nurses work to save him while strange apparitions abound. Here's Adam Pottle.

[/sc]

CH: Adam Pottle is an author and playwright from Saskatoon. His short story — "Zero Through the Looking Glass" -- is part of a CBC Books series called Transmission. You can read the rest at: www.cbcbooks.ca.

[Music: Instrumental]

Watermelon and cricket spitting

H: And now, a couple of stories that were gathering dust in the As It Happens archives. We pulled them out and cleaned them up. And after a little spit and polish, we've got three polished spitters. The first was Joe McKellar of Fifton, Georgia. National watermelon-seed-spitting champion of 1975. He'd blown away the competition by firing a watermelon seed 36 feet — that’s about nine metres. And he was kind enough to share the secrets of his success with Alan Maitland and Barbara Frum. The only thing was: there really weren't many secrets.

[sc]

AL MAITLAND: Hello, Mr. McKellar.

JOE MCKELLAR: Hi, Al.

AM: I hear you're pretty good spitter?

JM: Well, I did pretty good, yes.

AM: Did you really spit them? Or sort of fling them?

JM: No, I just spit them.

BARBARA FRUM: Give us a play-by-play.

JM: You put the watermelon seed in your mouth.

BF: One dry seed?

JM: No, it's a wet seed now, out of a fresh watermelon.

BF: Wet’s important?

AM: That's important?

JM: Yes. Yes, that's important.

AM: And it's wet because it's out of the fresh watermelon? And that's important, too, isn't it?

JM: Out of a fresh watermelon, yes.

AM: Because it has that lubrication around it?

JM: Right. You know, they're slick anyway.

AM: Right.

JM: Right.

AM: Okay.

JM: And I just sort of position the seed sort of to the front of my mouth with my tongue.

BF: Oh, that's not definite enough. Where on your tongue? Where’s your teeth? Where’s --

JM: Well, just sort of right behind my front teeth, with my tongue holding the seed.

BF: Uh-huh. Then what happens?

JM: Then I just take a deep breath and see how far I can spit it.

AM: Which part of the seed is forward? The pointed end?

JM: That's what I've come to the conclusion that's the best end.

AM: I think so.

BF: You've gotten better results?

JM: Well, you know, when I went and entered the contest, I’ve never had to spit a seed this distance before. But after entering, and after winning, of course, then I've been fooling around with them to see.

AM: This is done indoors, is it Mr. McKeller?

JM: Well, this one wasn't, no.

AM: You'd have to take into consideration the wind and the direction, eh?

JM: Well, there's a lot of them say that, yes.

AM: Well, you wouldn't want to spit into the wind, would you?

JM: No, no.

BF: [laughing] He who spittith against the wind.

JM: Directly into the wind, no.

BF: Wonder how you’d do with a peach pit?

JM: I don't know.

BF: The extra weight should be an advantage.

JM: I bet it would go further. Or as far.

AM: Oh, you’d need a different technique altogether for that.

JM: Probably would.

AM: Yeah. And grape seeds are great for firing, too.

JM: Yeah.

AM: Oh yeah. Do you ever try with the grape seeds?

JM: No, I never have.

AM: try that sometime.

JM: I Probably will. [BF laughs] I probably will.

BF: Mr. McKellar?

JM: Yes, ma'am?

BF: I don't know what else to ask you. I never thought I'd ever run out of questions.

JM: Well, that's what I was wondering. [everyone laughs loudly] I'll try to answer your questions, but I don't know what else to tell you.

AM: Listen, is there a question we haven't asked you yet?

JM: No. In other words, the contest. Who is it open to? Or, you know, this is a point probably that I'm gonna bring up next year at our annual convention. Because --

BF: Convention of what?

JM: National Watermelon Growers and Distributors Association.

BF: uh-hugh

JM: And, of course, this contest is held at their convention each year. And after I split the seed, and was the furthest, I was standing around. And I was talking to a guy from Canada, and he had said that he was thinking about entering. But one of the contest rules, I think the first one, says any U.S. citizen. But I'm pretty sure that we’ll probably change that.

AM: We're sort of related to you, one way or the other, aren't we?

JM: Right. Right. Because I mean --

BF: Well, if you're going to have a world title, you gotta meet the best in the world.

JM: That's right. And some of those Canadians might be pretty good, huh?

AM: Oh, they can really spit watermelon seeds.

JM: [laughing] Well, I'm pretty sure they might change that. I hope they do, because it's all in fun anyway.

AM: I hope you make it next year.

JM I hope so, too. I have to practice this year.

AM: Keep in touch, eh?

JM: Yes, sir.

AM: Attaboy.

JK: Thank you, Al.

AM: Goodnight.

JK: Goodnight.

[/sc]

CH: From April of 1975, Barbara and Al not-quite going the distance with watermelon seed-spitting champion Joe McKellar. Our next two guests had no real practice before they won their distance-spitting competitions. But they had no problem working the bugs out. The bugs being crickets. It was a cricket-spitting competition. I don't know. But Carol spoke with Brian Johnsrud and his son Jared in 2009.

BRIAN JOHNSRUD: Thank you.

JARED JOHNSRUD: Thanks.

CO: Now, let's start with you, Brian. How long have you been spitting crickets?

BJ: Up until today, probably what? Since last Saturday. [CO chuckles] That was the first time.

CO: So it's pretty quick, the learning curve there on that?

BJ: Very quick. Yeah, once you see that cooking, you put it in your mouth, you don’t want it in there too long. So we just hacked it out there.

CO: And Jared, did you start about the same time?

JJ: Yeah. I started on Saturday, too.

CO: Brian, what inspired you to get into the cricket-spitting competition then?

BJ: It was my wife. She'd been going to the fair all week long, and she'd seen it advertised they’re having cricket-spitting. And actually, we went there just to go and watch. And after we got there and nobody was there, we kind of hung out for a while. And then a few people started to show up, and nobody was really signing up, so she's like, ah, to heck with it. Let's go in there. And we signed up as a family, and then people started signing up. And next thing you know, there's probably about 30 people in it.

CO: Did your wife sign up as well?

BJ: Oh, yes, definitely, yeah. [CO laughs] She spat out there, too.

CO: You guys are joiners, aren't you?

BJ: Sure.

JJ: Yeah.

CO: So tell me what it was like, Jared, when you first put a cricket in your mouth?

JJ: it was soft, and I wanted to get it out there. So I just shot it out right away.

CO: And just give a sense of the technique. First of all, what's the condition of the cricket when you get it?

JJ: It's like thawed out.

CO: It’s thawed out because it's been previously frozen?

BJ: Yeah. They had previously frozen, and they'd been thawing out for about four hours, I think. So they weren't hard and crunchy like you thought they would be. They were actually kind of soft.

CO: Did you expect hard and crunchy crickets?

BJ: Well, yeah. The crickets I see hopping around, they’re pretty crunchy, so.

CO: So you popped it in your mouth, and then is there technique or anything involved here?

BJ: Well, I guess between Jared and I, we can both curl our tongues. So we kind of curled our tongues and put it on upside down and just blew as hard as we could and got it out there.

CO: How far did you spit your cricket?

BJ: I spit mine 22-feet-eight-inches.

CO: Good heavens!

JJ: And I spit mine ten-feet-five-inches.

CO: So both of you won in your categories then?

BJ: Yup, definitely.

JJ: Um-hmm

CO Was there a good audience for your cricket-spitting there, Jared?

JJ: Yeah, all of the other competitors.

CO: Were they impressed with you?

JJ: Yeah.

CO: And what about your mom?

JJ: She spit hers 14-feet-nine-inches.

CO: Really?! Did she win in her category?

JJ: She was with my dad, so.

CO: Oh, so your dad beat out your mom on cricket-spitting?

BJ: Yeah, they had all the adults lumped together. And if they would have had men and women's division, she would've won the women's division. She spit it the furthest for the women.

CO: Do you know anything about... I mean, I guess there is a story behind the cricket-spitting. Do you know anything about the history of this?

BJ: I have no idea. I think after we had done it and then, you know, once it started getting in the papers and stuff, I think my wife went on the Internet, looked it up and said, oh, the world record’s only like 30-feet-and-a-half-inches. I think you can beat that. [chuckle]

CO: So do you think you're going to become a professional cricket-spitter then? You're going to get into it big time?

BJ: I don't think so. [CO and JJ chuckle] We'll keep it a local defen title type thing of thing. And then after that, no.

[crosstalk]

CO: You’re not going to go for these international competitions?

BJ: I don’t want to be touring around and that, no.

CO: Your not going to get uniforms or anything like that?

BJ: No, no, no.

CO: Jared, now, I guess one of the things about cricket spitting is that once you've spit it out, it has to have all its parts in place, you know, none of them can stay either in your mouth or in the air. did you manage to get the whole cricket out?

JJ: Yeah. I managed to get the whole cricket out.

CO: Was it pretty gross?

JJ: Yeah.

CO: Would you do it again?

JJ: Probably.

CO: [laughing] Thanks, both of you.

BJ: Okay. Thank you.

CO: Bye-bye.

BJ: Yeah, bye.

JJ: Bye.

[/sc]

CH: From 2009, that was Carol speaking with Brian and Jared Johnsrud of Marshfield, Wisconsin. For a little geographical perspective, you'd have to spit a cricket 139-point-six kilometres in a north-westerly direction to hit Menomonie. Just let Menomonie know beforehand.

[Music: Circus instrumental]

Part three: Hot Docs: Eddy’s Kingdom

Hot Docs: Eddy’s Kingdom

Guest: Greg Crompton

CH: Eddy Haymour is the kind of person who will do absolutely anything to get what he wants. But the Canadian-Lebanese businessman only really wants one thing.

[sc]

[Music: Instrumental]

EDDY HAYMOUR: That is my island. And the government took it from me, and under duress. I will challenge to death for my island. Watch me.

[/sc]

CH: That's the voice of Eddy Haymour. He's the subject of a new documentary called “Eddy’s Kingdom”, which was featured at the Toronto Hot Docs Film Festival this month. It's the story of one man's singular obsession: a small rocky island in Okanagan Lake in British Columbia. It's an island Mr. Haymour once owned, and had ambitious plans for. But when he was prevented from carrying out those plans, he fought back. He made bomb threats, accused the BC government of conspiracy. He even took hostages at the Canadian embassy in Beirut. His case went all the way to the BC Supreme Court. And at 85 years old, Mr. Haymour is still fighting tooth-and-nail for his island. Greg Crompton had a front-row seat to Eddy Haymour’s ongoing exploits. He's the director of “Eddy’s Kingdom”. We reached him in Vancouver.

CO: Greg, first of all, welcome to As It Happens.

GREG CROMPTON: Thank you. Good to be on.

CO: Now, this character, this man, in your documentary, who is Eddy, Eddy Haymour, is quite a character. He wears a lot of hats. He's a proud immigrant, a hard-working immigrant. He is a barber, a father, a developer. He's also a psychiatric patient, a hostage-taker and a successful plaintiff all the way up to the BC Supreme Court. Lots of things. Who is Eddy Haymour to you?

GC: Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I think he is someone who is completely driven to realize his dream, or what he thinks is right. And so I think he's someone who is very driven. And so I admire him for that. And I think he's also he conflicts me because what he’s done in the past is, you know, he's done some pretty deplorable things. But he's also had some things done to him that are pretty horrible as well. So he is someone who conflicts me.

CO: And how do you know him? What inspired you to pursue Eddy Haymour for this documentary?

GC: So I grew up in Kelowna, BC, and my dad was in real estate in the ‘70s, before I was born. And Eddy took him to the island when Eddy was trying to sell it. And Eddy was kind of threatening government officials at that point. And so my dad said, you know what? Maybe we shouldn't work together. That's the last we heard from him. But, you know, we would boat by his island in the ‘80s and see the pyramid, and then drive by his bed and breakfast with his statue pointing at the island. [CO chuckles] So it was kind of this lore that you knew about growing up in Kelowna, but no one knew the full story. And then, you know, when I started kind of researching it, I realized, wow, there's so much more to the story than just these two, you know, the island and the bed and breakfast. And so we did a short segment on it for our history showpiece. He was awesome. And then just realized, hey, we should do a feature film, because there's just so many things to talk about here.

CO: When you said that your father sort of walked away because after he threatens government figures, and you think, okay, maybe he threatened them with legal action or whatever. No, he threatened government figures. [laughing]

GC: Yeah.

CO: This is a crazy roller coaster of a story. But at its core is, of course, as we learned in introduction, a man who is obsessed with an island. And so here's another bit of Eddy, talking about his island.

[sc]

[the music from the top is back]

EH: Yeah, I moved to the Okanagan in 1970. It reminds me of my back home in Lebanon. And when I saw the island, I fell in love with it.

[/sc]

CO: He fell in love with that island. And so you've been to this island, it's Rattlesnake Island, isn't it?

GC: Yes, it is.

CO: The name of it. And how would you describe it? He said it reminds him of Lebanon. How would you describe it?

GC: Yeah, it's a beautiful little island. The only island on Okanagan Lake. And it's very small, like, you know, five acres, kind of, you know, this long, tall grass that's notable in the Okanagan, kind of a desert-feel, with rocks and scrub grass and, you know, a few little kind of trails around the island. And there's only maybe two or three trees on the island. So it's a beautiful little piece of rock in the Okanagan, but it's also very similar to all the other kind of geography around that area.

CO: The issue that was at the core of this isn't just that this man, Eddy, bought this island or owned this island, but what he wanted to do with it. And can you just give us a sense of what his vision for the island was?

GC: Yeah. In his words, it's a Middle Eastern theme park. And so, you know, it would be a place that you would have a miniature golf course, both on land and a floating miniature golf course. He had a camel that was 30-feet high. That would have ice cream out of the belly. You know, you had to have chariots being pulled by horses. He would have, you know, a pyramid, you know. And then every different culture within the Middle East would be represented. And it’ll be a place that people from the Okanagan could come and learn about Middle Eastern culture. So he saw it as very much of a way to kind of have cross-cultural understanding, which, again, to me, it's fascinating that this man had this idea, and then kind of what he did to try and realize that.

CO: Okay. So if anyone has been to this area in the Okanagan, they know that this is just about nature, Right? And the people of Peachland, which is the community around the island, they didn't really see eye-to-eye with Eddy about his vision, did they? How did the neighbours react?

GC: Yeah. You know, it's funny. It was mixed. The mayor of Peachland was supporting it, but more people than not didn't want it. And because, yeah, it's this beautiful, bucolic point of nature. And everyone from Peachland looks towards that island. And so they would see this Middle Eastern theme park that didn't kind of fit in their vision of what they wanted the Okanagan Valley to be like. So people were pretty frustrated with that. And I think also Eddy is a charming character to some people, but it also may be a bit abrasive to others. And so I think he rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. His daughter had talked about how he kind of showed up in a white suit with all these necklaces and rings, and he was kind of acting like the big shot. And so a lot of people in small-town Peachland at that time just did not respond well to that at all. [chuckle]

CO: So they pictured seeing this island, they looked out, and it was going to have a pyramid and a giant camel and a lot of people going to this theme park. And one person in particular heard about this, the member of provincial parliament for that constituency, who just happened to be the premier, and just happened to be quite an extraordinary premier, W.A.C Bennett, often known as Wacky Bennett, who is equally as determined to stop Eddy from building this. What does he do?

GC: It's wild that W.A.C. Bennett's there. You know, he basically uses all he can from a government perspective to stop him. So he gets all his ministers to deny him building permits, deny him, you know, water permits, deny him sewer permits, all these sort of things. So Eddy just can't do anything. And then on opening day, you know, he shuts it down wwith a bunch of police presence. He uses all his government might to stop it. And part of it was it was an election year. W.A.C Bennett was looking to, you know, curry favour in his constituency.

CO: We should point out that a lot of those what we eventually came to know about what Premier Bennett had done came out much later in documents that were released. And the “Fifth Estate” did a documentary about Eddy and his theme park. But so at this point, Eddy just knows that he has been kind of snookered out of his idea. What does he plot to do in terms of revenge?

GC: You know, at that time, no one believes Eddy. Everyone's like, oh, yeah, sure. You know, the government's doing this to you. Because it wasn't... Maybe... It probably wouldn't have worked. You know, as a business proposal. So, yeah. Well, what Eddy does in reaction is he gets really frustrated and starts threatening government officials with letter bombs, threatens to blow up the bridge in Kelowna. Also, you know, he's going through a tough time with his family. So he threatens violence with his estranged wife. He goes actually to the legislature and threatens them in the provincial legislature, and so then the government, in Eddie's words, puts an undercover cop on him, he gets befriended by an undercover cop, and then that kind of leads him to getting thrown into a psychiatric ward. That's kind of where... That's rock bottom for Eddy, in a sense.

CO: You're listening to As It Happens. I'm speaking with Greg Crompton, who is the director of a new documentary called “Eddy's Kingdom”. It's about the extraordinary lengths to which one man goes to get a tiny island in the Okanagan. Yeah. So he is in big trouble with the law. I mean, easily, you could argue that it was entrapment that got him caught up in that. But he's not convicted. As you point out, he ends up in a psychiatric institution. How is he found not guilty by reason of insanity?

GC: When I heard this story from Eddy's lawyer, I was shocked. Thirty-seven charges, and a lot of them are like uttering threats and all this sort of stuff that can't be proven in court. It's kind of like this informant's word versus Eddy's word. The lawyers get together and say, Okay, we'll drop all charges, except this one charge, a charge of possession of knuckledusters, of brass knuckles. And Eddy's lawyer says, Okay, we're guilty of having these knuckledusters. Prosecution says Eddy is insane to have these knuckledusters. Therefore, he needs to be locked up indefinitely in a psychiatric ward for an undetermined amount of time. And I think that's when Eddy kind of loses his trust in government because they just totally hoodwinked him. It was shocking, to be honest.

CO: And as you point out, he's hit rock bottom. His wife has left him. She was abused by him. And from what people said in your documentary. And now he is leaving a psychiatric institution after all this. And he has another idea for how to get his island back. What does he do in Lebanon?

GC: So he goes to Lebanon, and he gets a bunch of his cousins who he doesn't actually really know. But there's, you know, strong family connections there. And goes to the Canadian embassy in Beirut, and holds a bunch of hostages over this island. His demands are: give me my island back, give me some money, bring my kids, and tell the world that I am not insane. It's a wild ask. He holds hostages for a number of hours. And in the end, he surrenders. And, you know, get sort of what he wants.

CO: This scene is absolutely extraordinary. This is Lebanon in 1976, a very volatile time. He practically starts the war again. I mean, what he does in that embassy. Holding 20 people in the Canadian embassy with his cousins armed with AK-47s. And the other character who's there, a man named Alan Sullivan, whom you interview, and who describes how he finally ends this siege, how he gets Eddy to calm down. And we’re going to play a bit of what Alan Sullivan has to say in your documentary.

[sc]

ALAN SULLIVAN: I was able to manufacture a telegram from Ottawa, which wasn't from Ottawa, which was from our communications centre in the embassy. The message said, under the circumstances, we will do everything possible to help you in your problems. I used a fictitious division of the department, and used MacEachen’s name without asking him because that would take him two days to get that through.

[/sc]

CO: Okay, so he's faked a letter from Allan MacEachen. Eddie has, oddly enough, Prime Minister Pierre Eliott Trudeau on his side, who says, look, just work this out. You know, this is a Canadian affair. [chuckling] And so if this was 9/11, or post-9/11, Eddy would be in serious trouble. What happens to Eddy for having taken the Canadian embassy by siege and having taken hostages there?

GC: This is the question that everyone asks me, like how did this occur? And so he ends up being charged in a Lebanese military court with a misdemeanor. They give him a $200 fine. There's nothing that the Canadian government can do to not let him in Canada, because at that point, it wasn't a crime to hold a Canadian embassy hostage in another country. So he's kind of somehow just got into some gray legal zone. And that allowed him back into Canada.

CO: Extraordinary. I mean, in the present days, you just couldn't imagine this. But he not only gets that break, pays the $200 fine for having done what he did. But then he catches a break back in Canada, doesn't he? The courts in British Columbia agree that the province had treated him badly, and that he should never have been put in a psychiatric institution. And they agree to pay him damages. Is that a vindication for Eddy?

GC: That's what Eddy’s has always wanted. You know, he's wanted vindication. And I think that once the government gave him that, he was over the moon. I mean, his main goal was still to get the island back. And he didn't succeed at that point in getting it back. But, you know, all these people who were kind of, you know, questioning. Oh, yeah. You're telling us that the government was doing you wrong. Yeah. Yeah, sure. They finally, you know, were proven wrong and he was proven right. And I think for him, that was incredible.

CO: So he's had his big break, but he doesn't get his island back. Why not?

GC: Eddy’s lawyer said they didn't want to cause another issue within the Okanagan Valley. And so they gave Eddy money instead of the island. But also, I mean, it was a provincial park at that point. It's hard for the government to give back an island that's in a park now,

CO: Eddy, he is not a sympathetic character. That's an understatement. And I think you are extremely fair to him. You let him explain himself. You give him every opportunity. But he really comes across as a really unreconstructed jerk, doesn't he?

GC: Yeah. I mean, I think his obsession just drives him to discount anyone else's experience in his life. And he's always right and everyone else is wrong if they don't agree with him. And so I think that just rubs a lot of people the wrong way, understandably so. You know, but I found it interesting in some of the talkbacks and Q&As that, you know, people maybe don't like him, but they somehow understand him, which I find is interesting. Or they're conflicted about him, which I find intriguing, the audience response to that.

CO: You talk to his daughter, Michelle, who has a quite a strong perspective on her father, and on his victory. I'm going to play a bit of what Michelle had to say in your documentary.

[sc]

MICHELLE: He told me his legacy was this island. Great, good for you. And he did win. So he won the case. But did he win in life? No way. He didn't have his family.

[/sc]

CO: She said that he lost his family. He lost the support of them and his kids. What do you make of him? What drives Eddy to go after this island at the cost of almost everything else, do you think?

GC: You know, I think it began with him feeling that, you know, he was wrong. And so he needed to prove that he was wrong. But then I think it kind of just slowly consumes his entire life. And then there's nothing else that he can do other than pursue this idea of being proven right. And, you know, he even gets his family members to help him, too. So he reaches out to Michelle, to say, you know, let's connect and be a family again. Oh, and by the way, can you help me get my island back? And, you know, it's always this thing that drives him, which is so ironic because, you know, it was initially there to bring people together, to bring families together, to show different cultures. And kind of it was this laudable goal. But in a way, it kind of destroys him. I don't give the ending away. But I would say it's not uplifting. [chuckle]

CO: What does he think of how his own children feel and speak about him?

GC: He's sad about that. He said that he's tried his best. And I believe him. But I think what's got to him is he's got a very strong sense of what's right and wrong. And it's different than what I think is right and wrong. But he follows that so much that I think he's seen that it's put his family in the back seat. And I think he's... I don't know if he regrets it, but I think he’s sad about it.

CO: You're listening to As It Happens. And I'm speaking with Greg Crompton, who is the director of a new documentary that is at Toronto Hot Docs Film Festival this year. The film is called “Eddy’s Kingdom”, and it follows the story of Eddie Haymour, and his obsession with an island in British Columbia, in the Okanagan. You give him every opportunity to explain himself. And you document the way he treated women in his life, the way he treated his children, the threats he made to political figures, those hostages he took, which must have been traumatizing for them. In the hours you spoke with him, did you ever get a sense that he felt sorry for anything that he did?

GC: No. No. I never got the sense that he felt sorry. I think he thought people understood what he was trying to do. You know, even the people that he held hostage. You know, he's like, well, I explained myself and why I was doing it. And they understood. I think it's a big jump to say they understood. You know, I think he's the type of person who feels that, you know, the ends justify the means, and so whatever it takes.

CO: But did it frustrate you to not be able to really find out what's at the core of Eddy as to why he's so driven?

GC: Yeah. You know, because it's true. I did ask him a lot. And I think he's a very good storyteller. And I think he's telling himself a story as well, that he's in the right. One question that I got out, And when I was asking you about him kidnaping his kids, he didn't think it was kidnaping. And I think that shows that he's just got this idea that he's always gonna be in the right, no matter what. And if people think he's in the wrong, it's because they don't understand the perspective of the scenario. I guess I couldn't kind of ever square his perspective with mine.

CO: What comes across in this documentary is how somebody has to be so bloody-minded, has to be such a megalomaniac to get anything done, to actually fight city hall, to be able to fight the government, the provincial government, all the way to the Supreme Court, and get a partial win. You really have to be like Eddy to do it, don't you?

GC: Yeah. His lawyer said a really good thing. He’s like, you know, most people would have just kind of let it go. You know, it's a small island, and you had a dream and it didn't work out. And let's move on. But he's, you know, somehow he feels, Okay, I'm going to make this my life's mission. It's become this mission at the cost of everything else in his life.

CO: He builds a nine-foot tall statue of himself. And it's on another piece of property. [both chuckle] We can go into that story about his hotel. But it points, the statue of Eddy, points over the lake toward the island. And here's what he told you about the statue.

[sc]

EH: The reason I have the statue, that's a sign to the government that says, you bastards, that’s my island, and will remain mine. You know?

[/sc]

CO: And it will remain his. He's now 85. It's still his island as far as he is concerned. Do you think he'll ever shake that obsession? Do you think that he's going to just keep on trying to get that island back?

GC: Yeah. Oh, yeah. He's going to keep on trying. I mean, you know, for the documentary, he was trying to talk to Premier Horgan. You know, he still wants to talk to, you know, Justin Trudeau, Prime Minister Trudeau. If it doesn't happen with this current government, it'll happen with the next. You know, he's just so driven. And also, what he wants to do with the island has changed. And he does say it in the documentary, too, that, you know, this is kind of his life's work. And, you know, in a way, I think his other daughter we interviewed, Fadwa, has a good perspective on it, that, you know, maybe it's keeping him going. Is that such a bad thing now? You know, I mean, he's not perpetuating violence now, so maybe that's okay. But obviously, his history is problematic.

CO: And he wants to be buried on the island?

GC: Yeah. He wants to create a cemetery for people who've done good things in the world. And, you know, maybe he'll get buried there, too. I can not imagine it actually happening. [chuckle]

CO: Your film is about power. It's about character. It's really excellent journalism. And I had this one question thorough most of it. It was, I wonder what you think of it? I wonder what you want people to take away, and what you take away, from this experience with Eddy?

GC: My goal was to try and figure out who this person was, and to give people a really clear understanding of his history and what he's gone through and what he did. And present a character that is difficult to pin down. You know, he's not an antagonist. He's not a protagonist. He's kind of this person who's done some pretty wild things. And so that was my goal. And I'm glad that people, the way they react to it is different. And this is probably the main question I get is what do I think about him? And I always struggle with that answer, because I think I'm totally conflicted. But what my final takeaway, I think, is, you know, be careful what you're obsessed with or don't, you know? Like, it's a cautionary tale about obsession. And I think my end thought to him is like, just get over it. And he's a charming guy, too. So I think there's all these conflicted ideas in there that kind of was surprising to me. It was surprising that kind of like his laudable goals, but also surprising all the things he told me that aren't on public record that he's done to try and get this island. And so I think the more and more I interviewed him and spent time with him, the more conflicted I got.

CO: And what does he think of your film?

GC: He is mixed. I always told him throughout the whole thing that, you know, we're going to get both sides of the story. And he said, yeah, that's fine, go for it. But when I actually did get both sides of the story, he was pretty frustrated. But, you know, we're still talking. And, you know, if it screens in Edmonton, which is where he lives now, you know, he'd come. Because, you know, at base, he's still trying to get his island back. And so this film is going to help him do that in his view, so.

CO: Greg, it's fascinating. Eddy Haymour is fascinating. And I appreciate what you did. It's quite an accomplished documentary. Thanks so much for speaking with us.

GC: Well, thank you. I really appreciate it.

CO: Bye.

GC: Okay, bye.

CH: That was Vancouver director Greg Crompton, joining Carol via Skype for a feature interview about his new documentary, “Eddy’s Kingdom”. You can catch “Eddy's Kingdom” at the Toronto Hot Dox Film Festival website until June 24th. And it's being featured later this month at the Vancouver DOXA Documentary Film Festival. To hear this interview again, and to see photos of Eddy Haymour’s beloved island, go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih

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June 12, 2020 Episode Transcript

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