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The AIH Transcript for June 11, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

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CH: Tonight:

CO: A monumental achievement. Thousands of people are demanding that Oxford University remove a statue of Cecil Rhodes. A South African student who campaigned for his removal five years ago, says he's hopeful, but he's also learned never to underestimate Oxford's abstinence.

CH: Degrees of recognition. We touched base with a member of the University of Alberta's graduating class. Tomorrow, five of her classmates will be awarded posthumous degrees. They all died in January when Flight PS752 was shot down near Tehran.

CO: A doctor accused of bringing COVID-19 into New Brunswick says a private investigator has proved he could not be patient zero and he wants an apology.

CH: Defining moment. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary has announced it will update its definition of "racism." We talked to the young woman who made it happen with an email.

CO: Parallel lives. As the closure of the Canada-U.S. border stretches on. Dr. Anthony Fauci weighs in on what he'd like to see before the 49th parallel reopens.

CH: And touting their own horn. On April Fool's Day 2010, a company posted a prank ad for a product called "Canned Unicorn Meat" and the resulting cease and desist order from the National Pork Board proved not everyone was in on the joke. As It Happens. The Thursday Edition. Radio that sees through a campaign of myth-information.

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Part 1: Cecil Rhodes Statue

Cecil Rhodes Statue

Guest: Sizwe Mpofu-Walsh

CH: They are symbols that have stirred in some cases for more than a century, but people will no longer accept what they stand for. As protests against police brutality and anti-black racism continue, monuments and statues are falling. And this week, hundreds of protesters gathered at Oxford University in England demanding that the statue of Cecil Rhodes come down. Cecil Rhodes was a British colonialist, a founder of the De Beers Diamond Company and the prime minister of Cape Colony, now South Africa, in the 19th century. He also believed strongly in the superiority of the English people. Sizwe Mpofu-Walsh has been trying to topple that statue since 2015. He's an Oxford doctoral candidate who helped start the Rhodes Must Fall campaign. We reached Mr. Mpofu-Walsh in Johannesburg, South Africa.

CO: Sizwe, do you wish you were back at Oxford right now with thousands of people protesting against the statue of Cecil Rhodes?

SIZWE MPOFU-WALSH: I have to admit that the scenes that I saw as thousands gathered beneath the statue were like something out of a dream. And it's really incredible to think that one of the biggest protests in Oxford's recent history has taken place over this issue, which for so long was swept under the carpet and hidden behind closed doors.

CO: You launched the campaign, Rhodes Must Fall. That was back in 2015. How were your efforts received at that time?

SIZWE MPOFU-WALSH: Outside Oxford and in the British public, in 2015, we were derided, we were ridiculed and viciously attacked, both in the pages of British media where campaigners were compared to ISIS, and also by university leaders where the chancellor of Oxford told us to go to China if we didn't like the Rhodes statue and what it represented. And so there was great hostility and that really produced a sense of alienation in the students who were already quite alienated by the chronic underrepresentation of black students and staff.

CO: Cecil Rhodes never denied that he was an imperialist, he was a colonialist. He believed that the Anglo-Saxon race was primary, the British Empire was superior. All those things he maintained. And he made money in Africa, didn't he? What was his source of income?

SIZWE MPOFU-WALSH: Rhodes was a diamond magnate and used forced prison labour in his mine. He also leveraged his ill-gotten wealth to become a South African politician and both as a political figure and as a magnate plundered and violently and murderously spread his influence over southern Africa. And so the history is clear. And it's not just a question of odious views. Those views were followed up over the barrel of a gun. And over the gun of a private paramilitary police force that Rhodes established in southern Africa.

CO: And, of course, Rhodesia was named for him. And he was considered to be one of the primary architects of the apartheid system in South Africa. Is that right?

SIZWE MPOFU-WALSH: That's correct. And I think it's really important as this debate around history rages, a debate that activists and students at Oxford have always called for that we appreciate that Rhodes's legacy stretches into the present. We're not simply debating late Victorian history. We're debating how Rhodes's actions, his ideologies and his plunder have caused fundamental and major problems in the place where he committed his crimes.

CO: He made a lot of money, but what he is celebrated for among a lot of academics is establishing what's called the Rhodes Scholarship, where there have been thousands of people who have been able to go to Oxford University because of that scholarship. And they often point to that as the evidence that there was more than one side to this man. What do you say to that?

SIZWE MPOFU-WALSH: I've heard that argument, and I think it's flawed in the following way. Firstly, the major beneficiaries of the Rhodes scholarship are not Africans, let alone Southern Africans. The major beneficiaries of the Rhodes scholarship are Americans. And we count the number of black South Africans who benefited from the scholarship, and the number is somewhere less than 200 in over a century. So anyone who thinks that giving scholarships to 200 people accounts for the tens of millions of people whose lives were destroyed by apartheid, I would suggest has something of a mathematical challenge before them.

CO: Well, Lord Patten, the chancellor of Oxford University, has accused those who are part of this movement as hypocrites. He said this is a bit of hypocrisy in Oxford, taking money for 100 scholars a year, about a fifth of them he says, from Africa to come to Oxford and say to throw the Rhodes statue in the Thames. And he says that Nelson Mandela didn't have a problem with Cecil Rhodes, so he doesn't either. What do you say to Lord Patten?

SIZWE MPOFU-WALSH: It's unclear what Lord Patten means about thi 'Nelson Mandela wouldn't like the statue of Rhodes. And I think it's quite unfortunate that the chancellor of Oxford is using a black Southern African leader to defend a statue of a white supremacist. Nelson Mandela fought his whole life against the legacy of apartheid.

CO: Do you think, though, that this time, this round, there is enough momentum, there is enough force behind the ideas that you were putting forward in 2015? Do you think now that the statue of Cecil Rhodes will be taken down?

SIZWE MPOFU-WALSH: I've learned never to underestimate Oxford's obstinacy. The question really is what more needs to be done? There was an unprecedented protest of thousands of people. And as an Oxford student, I can tell you that Oxford is not exactly a place where massive protests happen every day. What would it take to get Oxford to budge on this? If they don't budge now, then they'll never budge. And if they don't ever budge, I think that says a lot more about Oxford than it does about the students who have stood up against this institution so bravely.

CO: Sizwe we will leave it there. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

SIZWE MPOFU-WALSH: Thank you.

CH: Sizwe Mpofu-Walsh is an Oxford doctoral candidate. Today, we reached him in Johannesburg, South Africa. Tomorrow on As It Happens, we'll hear from Sir Geoff Palmer, who is Scotland's first black professor, about why he thinks pulling down statues is a bad idea.

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New Brunswick Doctor follow

Guest: Joel Etienne

CH: He was accused of unwittingly harming his patients when he was supposed to be helping them. Last month, a New Brunswick doctor, Jean Robert Ngola was outed as the possible source of the province's COVID outbreak. Dr. Ngola admits he didn't self-isolate after returning from an out of province trip, but he's demanding an apology from the premier after a private investigator he hired concluded that he did not bring COVID back to New Brunswick. Joel Etienne is Dr. Ngola's lawyer. We reached him in Toronto.

CO: Mr. Etienne, first of all, can you just explain how the accusations against Dr. Ngola -- how have they affected his life in New Brunswick?

JOEL ETIENNE: Oh, it's been a terrible experience for him. The monsoon and the tsunami of accusations, vitriol, hateful messages, which also transpired in his day to day reality in terms of threats to the extent that he's had to actually call and seek police protection.

CO: Now, can you tell us about the trip in question, his trip from New Brunswick to Quebec. Can you tell us why Dr. Ngola went there in the first place?

JE: Well, I mean, I can tell you that Dr. Ngola went to Quebec, he retrieved his daughter. There was a family emergency at the time in relation to the mother of the child's family. She had to travel. Dr. Ngola went, retrieved his child and he had much limited contact in Quebec. And he made his way back to Campbellton, New Brunswick.

CO: And when he did go back to Campbellton, why didn't he self-isolate, as is the rules if you leave their province of New Brunswick and return, why did he not do that?

JE: Well, I can't agree that he didn't follow the rules. I mean, the industry practices, the practices in the Campbellton area where he's been working, including the practices of his colleagues and supervisors, and essentially they've been coming in and they have not been self-quarantining as pursuant to the investigation that was conducted by an investigator that we hired. So what Dr. Ngola did is what other doctors do. And his experience in Quebec was probably shorter and as careful and it's really not as repeated in contrast with the other health care professionals in Quebec who come in and don't self-isolate.

CO: But he has said that elsewhere that he regrets not having self-isolated. He said he didn't and he regrets it. Why is that?

JE: The good doctor who communicated directly with the CBC French, he gave an interview. Well, at the time, he had been told you are patient zero without validation, no basis was given to him, no explanation as to how he had been determined to be patient zero by the public health authorities in New Brunswick. And so, of course, if he's patient zero, I mean, you know, that was a disastrous piece of information to receive. I'm sure the doctors here will look with 2020 in hindsight, that the local practices of what we're doing in the hospital, if God forbid I received a contracted disease in Quebec, the local practices of not self-quarantining once you cross the border, maybe those practices need to be revised. In 2020 hindsight, of course, any health care professional, never never wants to infect any patients.

CO: This investigator that you have hired, this independent investigator, has concluded that he is not patient zero. Is that right?

JE: Well, there are two things that the health care authorities did not disclose to the greater public when the finger was pointed to Dr. Ngola. Issue number one, they never told the public that there was industry practice of healthcare workers doing the in and out in Quebec. And the other thing that our investigator discovered was, you know, in the context of COVID, the governments don't have vaccines for us yet. But what they do and what they're supposed to do is testing and contact tracing. And what Mr. Hannaford did was pursuant to expert advice that he had received in relation to how he should conduct this investigation, he went ahead and did the contact tracing. And lo and behold, what he discovered is that the individuals that the good doctor had contact with in Quebec first of all are not sick, they don't have COVID. So the idea that he contracted the disease in Quebec is a misnomer...

CO: Okay so your investigator said he went and found out that the family that his daughter was with, they were tested and didn't have COVID, is that right?

JE: I mean, the methodology is within itself. But he had a chance to verify tests. You know, so with respect to the health care professionals that the good doctor had contact with, of course, when they spoke, they were social and self-distancing.

CO: What I'm asking you is if this investigator determined that people had tested and found that they didn't have COVID-19, is that right?

JE: As far as I understand it, yes. And I believe that there were two individuals that are not in quarantine that were health care professionals, that are not sick with COVID, that continue to practice their craft and go back. And I mean, there's really no issues with that.

CO: Okay. But he had a meeting with doctors in a clinic in Trois-Rivieres on his way back about employment opportunities. And you're saying that all those doctors that he had that meeting with have been tested in that clinic and no one has COVID-19?

JE: I'm saying that they've been, by the way not just a meeting about employment opportunities, but also about sharing and discussing...

CO: Okay. He had a meeting in Quebec?

JE: Yes.

CO: Did your investigator -- if he's saying that he did not contact anyone with COVID-19 in Quebec where those people tested?

JE: My understanding is that they're testing and tested. And my understanding is that these health care professionals today and yesterday and the day before are in the community, not self-isolated, not in quarantine, practicing their craft in an area of Quebec on top of that -- not all of Quebec as has COVID, as you know or not all of Quebec has COVID hotspots. So there's no issues with those doctors.

CO: You're sure of that? So you're absolutely sure that he did not come in contact with anyone -- this is for a fact? No one in Quebec he came in...

JE: We did best practices. And this is what our investigator has reported so far.

CO: Mr. Ngola did test positive for COVID-19 at some point.

JE: He did. Yes.

CO: Where do you think he got that from?

JE: Well, the only logical assumption or inference that can be made at this stage is: in New Brunswick.

CO: The premier of New Brunswick, Blaine Higgs, didn't name Dr. Ngola. He said one irresponsible medical professional brought this back into the province. Do you believe that the premier owes your client an apology?

JE: I truly believe that he does. First of all, I think it's wrongheaded. The experts have confirmed with our investigator in the context of the pandemic, what you don't do is you don't politicize a pandemic. You don't try to criminalize a pandemic. The most vulnerable people in a pandemic right now are our primary health care workers.

CO: So you believe the premier owes him an apology?

JE: I absolutely do, yes.

CO: Mr. Etienne, we will leave it there. We'll be following the story. And I appreciate you speaking with us today. Thank you.

JE: Thank you so much. Thank you.

CH: Joel Etienne is the lawyer for New Brunswick Dr. Jean Robert Ngola. We reached him in Toronto.

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Mark Saunders

CH: Toronto's police chief says that despite the timing, his decision to step down is all about his family. Mark Saunders was a guest on CBC's Metro Morning today. He insisted that while he is leaving before the end of his term, his move has nothing to do with the protests police forces are facing across North America. Then Chief Saunders spoke about the conversations that he, as a black father, has had with his children about talking to the police.

MARK SAUNDERS: Well, you know, my kids have a better understanding of what we do and why we do, what we do. I'll give you one small example. So, you know, in the anti-black racism training, one of the touch points that brings up the bigger emotions is when they discuss that families talk to their kids, black families talk to the kids about what to do when you get stopped by the police. Well, I've done that with my kids because if you're going to have an interaction, if both sides of that interaction have an understanding of what the concerns and what the angst are, there's a greater chance for success.

ISMAILA ALFA: And what do you tell them to do?

MARK SAUNDERS: I tell them the time to have the argument is in the courtroom. Well, we have 75 percent of our officers in North America, a vehicle stop is one of the most dangerous things because it's a police officer walking into an unknown environment, especially at nighttime, and you don't know what's going on in that car or what the motives are or what is going to happen. So I speak to my kids and I say, you've got to make sure you know who you're in the vehicle with because you don't know what they're bringing to that interaction. Number one, if you're not sure, don't get in the car. Number two, have the dialogue with those officers, answer the questions. And number three, you don't go ripping into the glove box. And it doesn't matter what colour you are, if you're ripping into the glove box, that imposes fear to police officers. And so they have to do whatever they need to do to be after those moments.

CO: That was out-going Toronto Police Chief Mark Saunders speaking with Ismaila Alfa on CBC's Metro Morning today.

[Music]

From our archives: Canned Unicorn Meat

CH: Who doesn't love a good prank? That's not rhetorical. And the answer is whoever got pranked. Or in this case, whoever thinks they got pranked even though the prank had nothing to do with them. In 2010, the company ThinkGeek posted an ad for a new canned meat product. "Magic in every bite" it said on the tin. "Excellent source of sparkles." And the product description began "Pâté is passé. Unicorn: the new white meat." It was an ad for canned unicorn meat. And two things tipped most people off that this was a whimsical shenanigan. First, it was posted on April Fool's Day. Second, it was an ad for canned unicorn meat. But not everyone enjoyed this single horned horse play. A little while later, the United States National Pork Board sent ThinkGeek a lengthy cease and desist order. And in June of 2010, Carol spoke with ThinkGeek's baffled head of public relations Shane Peterman.

CO: First of all, Mr. Peterman, what does the cease and desist order say?

SHANE PETERMAN: The general gist of it...it's pretty lengthy. So it's hard to get really into the details of it. But essentially, the issue that the Pork Board had was that we were infringing upon the copyrighted statement "The other white meat" as we referred to our product as the new white meat.

CO: It is pretty similar.

SP: Relatively speaking, yeah.

CO: So what exactly is the new white meat?

SP: The new white meat is canned unicorn meat.

CO: [Chuckles] And you issued this on April the 1st.

SP: Yes, that's correct.

CO: Can you describe unicorn meat?

SP: It's a canned product. And I guess the best way to describe it is that it's kind of sparkly. [Chuckles] It's really not even too much of a white meat. It's sort of a pinkish meat and it's a little bit sparkly.

CO: In fact, in your ad, it says it's magic in every bite.

SP: Exactly. Exactly.

CO: And it looks like spam, actually.

SP: Yeah, kind of. It definitely bears a resemblance.

CO: Now, I have to tell you that we at As It Happens every year, do an April Fool's joke that is so clever that sometimes we don't even know what it is. [Laughter] And yet our audience, our listeners every year get it -- most of them do. So what did you think of the fact that the pork board didn't seem to understand that your canned unicorn meat on April 1st might be a joke?

SP: We all honestly thought it was absolutely hilarious, especially given the fact that we got the cease and desist over a month after the fact. The cease and desist came to us or rather to our legal department on May 5th. So, you know, it's just over a month later. And, you know, they presumably had a bit of time to kind of go over it. And just for whatever reason didn't, you know, really grasp the fact that unicorns don't exist.

CO: How many lawyers do you think actually worked on their cease and desist order?

SP: I want to say -- I know that the call that happened after the letter came through, that there was somewhere around, if I remember correctly, there are somewhere around 10 lawyers on there end. I wasn't actually on the call. It was just handled by our legal team. So I don't know exactly how many. But I do know that, you know, the very small legal department of just a couple of people that we have was greatly outnumbered by and by their lawyers.

CO: And what happened during that phone call? How did you explain it to them?

SP: Essentially, we just told them, you know, that it wasn't a real product. We kind of brought it back to their attention, hopefully this wasn't new information for them, that know unicorns don't exist and therefore, you know, a canned unicorn meat couldn't possibly exist. And my general understanding is that their response to that was simply to just say, oh. And then they sort of got the joke. [Laughs]

CO: [Laughs] You weren't on the phone call, but those who were on it how do they describe that "oh" moment?

SP: They said there was definitely -- once it was sort of brought to the pork board's attention that it wasn't real, there was definitely a brief pause and almost an awkward silence before they kind of like...it almost seemed as though you could almost hear them kind of looking at each other going "Wait, what did we just get into?"

CO: The actual -- the original fake canned unicorn meat ad describes it as the unicorns frolic around the world, they poop rainbows and marshmallows wherever they go. Then they retire to County Meath in Ireland, where they're taken care of by nuns who feed them caramel corn, candy corn, and prepare them for slaughter. And that each can of unicorn meat has the unicorn horn ground up in it, it adds a kind of sweet crispy note. Now, all of this was in the ad that the lawyers would have looked at?

SP: Yeah. The ad, I would have hoped that they look at it. It almost seems as though maybe they just, you know, kind of saw the headline that says "unicorn: the new white meat" and just went with that.

CO: Not even the line underneath it: An excellent source of sparkles.

SP: Yeah. I'm not sure how they missed it. [Laughs] But I mean, again, we're dealing with, you know, the fact that they just completely missed that it was unicorn meat to being with.

CO: Now just before you go, your title is not just PR manager, you're also officially called the Righteous Dude.

SP: Yep. It's sort of a self-designated title.

CO: All right. Righteous dude. Good to talk to you.

SP: [Chuckles] Likewise.

CH: From 2010, that was Carol speaking with Shane Peterman, head of PR for ThinkGeek. And a Righteous Dude.

[Music]

Part 2: This woman convinced Merriam-Webster to revise its definition of racism

University of Alberta Posthumous Grads

Guest: Asal Andarzipour

CH: Tomorrow at the University of Alberta's convocation ceremony in Edmonton, Asal Andarzipour will receive a masters in art history. And the names of five of her former classmates will be called to receive posthumous degrees. Ms. Andarzipour is the president of the university's Iranian Students Association. The five missing students were all onboard flight PS752. The jet was brought down by Iranian missiles as it took off from Tehran in January. Five other members of the University of Alberta community were onboard the plane. We reached Asal Andarzipour in Edmonton.

CO: Asal, first of all, congratulations on completing your degree.

ASAL ANDARZIPOUR: Thank you so much.

CO: Why was it important for your university to grant posthumous degrees to these students who were on that flight, Ukrainian Airlines Flight PS752?

AA: I think the reason this is important for these five students is that they were lost in a tragedy that made the whole university community devastated. And it had a large impact on the nation. And also back home among Iranians. So this was an international loss.

CO: 176 passengers who were on the flight were all killed. And 55 of them were Canadians, 30 permanent residents killed. And what was so striking is we learned more about who was killed was just the enormous talent that it represented, just the education and the promise. We interviewed people who were family members and friends, and it just became so clear, the enormous loss to this country of the people who were on that flight. Is that part of what the university's understanding now?

AA: Exactly. You know, this has been such a loss of knowledge and hard work, unaware that there are 53 graduate students on board. And there were three faculty members, two of them from the UFA. So I think that is why, you know, in addition to all the horror that we have experienced, it has been such a loss for the academic community. And what we are also aware of is that Iranians have a history of a few decades of being active in the Canadian universities and being recognized and well known for their success.

CO: You knew the five students who are being honoured in this way with the posthumous degrees. Can you tell us a bit about them?

AA: I didn't meet them all in person. But we are used to be in touch with each other, you know, throughout the whole process of coming over. They have been some of the most talented, you know, students from Iran. Even back home they had a history of being recognized for their accomplishments. For example, Arash Pourzarabi was ranked as a first in a national Olympiad of mathematics. They were really smart and hardworking students.

CO: And the man you mentioned, his wife is also is being honoured. And she was also killed.

AA: Yes, this couple were very well known. And also, you know, any of them, she was, again, one of the top students. And Nasim (Rahmanifar) same thing -- I know she was an athlete. She was an artist. She used to paint. And Saba Saadat -- her sister was onboard along with her mother, you know.

CO: You know, this is an enormous loss, but not just to Canada, what kind of double loss to Iran that they were losing so many of the best and brightest in that country. And then for their own forces to strike this plane down.

AA: Exactly. You know, they should be aware that any life that is lost is important. You know, any life. But, of course, it's such a loss, you know. And the people who have been trained and educated for for at least 12-13 years in an education system that you're on, all of them have been graduate students. So this is sad. You know, this tells us about all the dreams and hopes that could have come true.

CO: And what effect does it have on you and the families of these people that we still know so little about what happened? That there has been no proper investigation, that despite the efforts of Transport Minister Marc Garneau, they have not got the flight recorders from Iran, not been able to look at them. All of this since January, we've learned so little. What effect does that have on you and the others?

AA: Yes, well, you know, there's a lot of uncertainty. We just have to wait. It's been more than five months since the incident, and there is still no answers. There's many many questions that are unanswered. First of all, why the Iranian airspace was open at the time that the tragedy happened? You know, because that day, January 8th, was already a day that there was another missile from Iran to the U.S. military bases in Iraq. You know, if they are aware of the situation, why would they even allow flights to take off? Second of all, why did they keep refusing to give the black-box? Or, you know, one time say yes and then the other times say no. Or, you know, give it in exchange for something. You know, there were just news coming out of negotiations between the Iranian Canadian authorities in terms of demanding to open the Iranian embassy in Canada, which has been closed years ago due to political conflict. Also, as the tragedy happened, a few hours after that, they started to clean up all of the crash site and clearing all of the evidence that could be studied and investigated. So there's a lot of unclear points.

CO: Tomorrow, though, you are going to be able to have these posthumous degrees awarded. You begin, I guess, a new chapter in your own life. Where are you headed?

AA: Well, you know, there are these students who are receiving these degree, and I am graduating at the same time. And I have a degree in art. I have another degree in design. So I'm trying to integrate my background and put it into practice. Also, considering our current war of large, migrating population everywhere, I think that is the area I would like to focus on and help the immigrant community here in Canada. I'm looking for the opportunities in Canada.

CO: I hope you find them Asal.

AA: Thank you.

CO: Thank you. Take care.

AA: Bye.

CH: Asal Andarzipour is the president of the University of Alberta's Iranian Students Association. We reached her in Edmonton. Tomorrow, posthumous degrees will be granted to Pouneh Gorji, Arash Pourzarabi, Elnaz Nabiyi, Nasim Rahmanifar, and Saba Saadat.

[Music]

Juanita Westmoreland-Traore

CH: As you've heard on this program, the premier of Quebec doesn't think his province has a problem with systemic racism. And the first black judge to ever be appointed in the province thinks that's evidence that there is a problem. Retired Justice Juanita Westmoreland-Traore spoke to CBC Radio's Quebec AM today. She was asked what she made of Premier Francois Legault's refusal to use the term "systemic racism."

JUANITA WESTMORELAND-TRAORE: I would say that, unfortunately, if the prime minister does not acknowledge that there is systemic racism, it's misleading because many people look towards him for leadership and they believe that he has the strength and the resources to be able to inform and enlighten people. So I think really it's a missed opportunity. But more than that, it sets the struggle of people for justice back. And I think it's really out of step and out of time with the moment.

JULIA CARON: What kind of impact does it have to have the premier of the province refuse to acknowledge systemic racism when, as you say, there are studies that have clearly established that it does exist?

JUANITA WESTMORELAND-TRAORE: I think it misleads people. I think it makes us avoid and delay remedies and satisfaction. You know, these practices can be widespread. For instance, some people will discriminate on the basis of accents. You know, they have in their mind that when somebody speaks with a certain accent, they will be less qualified. You know, that they don't know the systems or they don't know the profession that they're aiming to come to and they're basically excluded. This does not only affect the individual, it affects their family. It affects communities. It affects how others perceive them. It denies this society also of their experience, their expertize, and their creativity. You know, the positive tension that can take place between differences.

CH: That was retired Justice Juanita Westmorland-Traore speaking to Julia Caron on CBC Radio's Quebec AM today.

[Music]

Racism Dictionary Definition

Guest: Kennedy Mitchum

CH: For years, Merriam-Webster Dictionary has defined racism as, among other things, "A belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities." And to Kennedy Mitchum that narrow definition makes it impossible to have meaningful conversations about racism. Ms. Mitchum is a recent graduate of Drake University in Iowa. She wrote to Merriam-Webster asking it to expand its definition. And this week, the dictionary announced it would be making some key changes, including more details about the different ways that racism can operate. We reached Kennedy Mitchum in St. Louis, Missouri.

CO: Kennedy, what were you expecting would happen when you wrote to the people at Merriam-Webster?

KENNEDY MITCHUM: Honestly, not much. I was expecting maybe a spam reply of "Okay, I'll get back to you soon." So I was definitely very shocked that they actually were there to hear out my opinions and come to the conclusion that there does need to be a definition change. So I was definitely shocked. But I was excited. It was a good shock-slash-exciting moment.

CO: Wow. And what exactly did you tell them about what was wrong with the dictionary definition of the word racism?

KM: Yeah, I told them it was very surface level and it wasn't including a lot of the systemic ways that people of colour are oppressed. So I said that they needed to include systemic oppression in their definition in order to avoid misinforming the masses and to avoid people trying to claim that they're not racist because they think that they don't not like someone because of the colour of their skin when it's a lot deeper than that.

CO: And you had people telling you that online, on social media, didn't you? People saying, 'well, I'm not a racist and you can't call me one because I don't fit the dictionary definition.'

KM: Yes. I would post something about my experiences, whether that's micro-aggression, and they would be like, 'Well, that's not racist. What are you talking about? And like, what are you talking about? Is that really racist?' And I would just keep telling them, like, yes that is. And then boom. So they kept using it to justify ignorant claims and just to stay stagnant and not understand the different systems that really go into play when it comes to racism and how really deep rooted it is in our society.

CO: This issue of systemic racism is a big discussion in Canada since the death of George Floyd. And our police forces are wrestling with it especially. They've been accused of systemic racism. I just want to quote to you the commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and this is our national police force, who was asked about systemic racism and if it existed in our force. And she said that, she told the CBC, that she'd heard 15 or 20 different definitions of that term, systemic racism. And she has concluded that systemic racism is not something the police forces. She told the newspaper that if systemic racism means that it's entrenched in policies and procedures, we don't have it. So are other police forces is sharing that assumption?

KM: Yes. That's really crazy. Even here locally, just in my own community the St. Louis chief of police very much so stated a very similar opinion. And I was very just appalled. I'm like, they're really just ignoring a lot of things that are happening. It's sad that they're in those positions and they're not doing their own research. They think that the rates of people of colour, the scary and sad rates of people of colour, being incarcerated is just why because of the stereotypes, like they're playing more into the racist system themselves by ignoring the problem. Black male after black male, black woman after black woman who have died, and they just want to act like it's one racist cop when it's a racist system.

CO: How would you expand the definition in order to -- say for our commissioner of the RCMP and for others who say it's not there -- how would you expand the definition that might hold a mirror up to some of our organizations?

KM: I would say that it's a deeply rooted prejudice, combined with institutional power and systemic oppression of certain groups of people. And on the opposite side, it's a system of advantages for another group of people. So I think that once you recognize that and once you really look at the different terms and put them all together, then they can really come out with a better understanding of what systemic oppression is, of how systemic racism exists, and look at the data that backs up what I'm talking about.

CO: There's a Canadian senator, Murray Sinclair, who in the same newspaper article in Globe and Mail, he said something quite interesting. He said that people misunderstand that everyone has to be racist in order for there to be systemic racism. He said there are people who are not racists in the system. But when there is systemic racism, when the system itself is based on racist beliefs and you put policies and practices in place, and then people who are not racist end up following those policies and practices, and that's how it becomes systemic. Would you agree with that?

KM: Yes, I definitely would. And a lot of that goes into a lot of the conversations that I've had and people just saying, 'Okay, well, what does that mean when you put people of colour in those powerful positions?' And it's the same thing. It doesn't matter if you put them in those positions, they're still going to follow the system that has been set up. And the system is racist. So they're going to follow that. It really takes people to reform. It takes not just, you know, not being racist people, but being anti-racist, acknowledging when there is a problem or in speaking up for minorities and people who aren't in the room themselves. I think that is going to be a major debate, not just being not racist, being anti-racist and fighting against a lot of this rhetoric, a lot of this policy and really educating yourself before you take on this role, educating yourself about the history, educating yourself on the policy that you're trying to put in place that's going to affect a lot of people.

CO: Has Merriam-Webster -- have they given you any indication as to when they might have a new definition of racism?

KM: Yes, they said they would be reaching out to a lot of different minorities and looking at their literature. And then from there that they're going to craft a different definition and it should be out within the next few months.

CO: Kennedy, well done.

KM: Thank you. Thank you.

CO: No, thank you. Take care.

KM: Bye.

CO: Bye.

CH: Kennedy Mitchum is a recent grad of Drake University in Iowa. We reached her in St. Louis, Missouri. And you can go to our website to read more: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Darren Haskell

CH: You may remember hearing last summer about the discovery of the big bar landslide in B.C.. Rocks from a cliff had broken off into a part of the Fraser River, creating a dire situation for migrating salmon swimming upstream. Now, we know there was a loss of 99 percent of early Stuart sockeye and 89 percent of early Chinook salmon. That's what a Fisheries and Oceans Canada official told a House of Commons committee this week. She said the situation did improve further into the season, but they're still concerned this year over how fish will get past that portion of the Fraser River. Darren Haskell is the fisheries manager for the Tl'azt'en First Nation in B.C.. He's also the president of the Fraser Salmon Management Council. He spoke with the CBC's Carolina de Ryk this morning about how community members have reacted to these numbers.

DARREN HASKELL: It was just so sad to hear. And it was something that, you know, I had to share among our communities. And I think it's an important message to get out there as well, just to really let people know how grim this run was this past year. And how is the future looks for the early Stuarts -- it's very worse right now.

CAROLINA DE RYK: And let's jump a few years into the future now, because with the estimates that 99 percent of early Stuart were lost, 89 percent of early Chinook. What does that mean for future runs?

DARREN HASKELL: There's a real possibility of extinction. You know, it's been spoken about through some of the science reports of early Stuart run for this cycle, because I can give you some actual numbers here, because we do enumeration on this run. We physically counted only 56 sockeye. And we monitor about upwards of 40 streams in the early Stuart spawning area. And the final number after, you know, the actual analysis was 89 sockeye out of potential 27,000. So extinction is the word that's been talked about.

CAROLINA DE RYK: And what would extinction mean for your culture?

DARREN HASKELL: It would be a definite blow to our culture because there's a huge huge dependence on this fish, you know? You know, it's not just about gathering food. It's a big social event during the summertime. And I know a lot of cultures along the Fraser as well, a lot of different tribes use early Stuart as a beginning of their salmon season. And they have a first salmon ceremony. And you know it gets pushed back all the way to August now. It usually happens in June and July.

CAROLINA DE RYK: So right about now.

DARREN HASKELL: Yeah, right about now. And it's just...I'm kind of getting at a loss for words at some point. You know, I mean the reliance on sockeye for food is important. You know, passing that knowledge of how to prepare it and store it to the next generation, you know. In past years where we've had this happen, we've actually had to go out and either buy salmon or borrow it with another nation. And, you know, I want our kids to learn how to prepare salmon. And I don't want them to learn that salmon comes from the back of the truck. I want them to know, to learn, that salmon comes from the lake, and we fish for salmon.

CH: Darren Haskell is the fisheries manager for the Tl'azt'en First Nation in British Columbia. He was speaking with the CBC's Carolina de Ryk on the program Daybreak North.

[Music]

Part 3: This voice-activated LED mask simulates facial expressions for talking, smiling

Yemen Covid

Guest: Claire HaDuong

CH: Yemen's health system was already in a state of collapse. Now COVID-19 has dealt it a possible death blow. The country's remaining hospitals have been dealing with an influx of coronavirus patients and running out of beds to put them in. Claire HaDuong is Doctors Without Borders' head of mission in Yemen. We reached her in Sana'a.

CO: Claire, can you describe for us just how much of a strain COVID-19, this virus pandemic, what strain is it put on your facilities in Yemen?

CLAIRE HADUONG: Well, we had to open a new COVID centre. So we firstly opened two and then an additional two because the first two were overwhelmed. So we had to open additional two COVID centres in the two big cities of Yemen: Sana'a and Aden. And we also opened COVID services, let's say, in each of our certain hospitals that we already manage.

CO: But have you had a difficult time attracting nurses and doctors to come and work?

CLAIRE HADUONG: It's hugely difficult at first because everybody was scared of COVID initially, because the image that we saw from Europe is quite frightening. Usually we are only seeing people panicking over in the ICU. So the first health staff did not want to work with us. And then the highly specialized staff there are not that many in Yemen. It's not a country where you have that many specialists. We have been able to recruit some of them. Not enough. And that's why we had to limit the number of ICU beds that we are actually managing the number of beds -- the limitation in the number of beds is clearly the specialized health staff that would attend patients.

CO: So if the nurses and doctors are afraid to work with the disease, what's the response in the general population? What are you seeing when people arrive with these symptoms?

CLAIRE HADUONG: So the problem is that people do not arrive early enough with the symptoms. They only arrive when they already are very severely affected by the disease. And so it's not only the staff that is afraid of COVID. We are now trained to start the communication at the local level to explain what is COVID, to explain the precautionary measures and to show what we do in our hospital. But because all the public health messages that have been broadcasted in the past two months also by the ministry of health, has not really succeed in reassuring the people. So there's a lot of rumors and people are very afraid of coming to the hospital for care.

CO: We're talking about Yemen here. I mean, we've seen wealthy countries struggling to cope with this pandemic. But Yemen already had a health system on the brink of collapse. You've deal with famine, you deal with cholera, you deal with the war itself. You're dealing with extreme conditions for people in those cities. And so what effect has this virus had on top of everything else that you were struggling with in the health care system in Yemen?

CLAIRE HADUONG: Well, it's really our biggest fear. And we think the virus is already spreading over Yemen. And here it will have a very high death toll in Yemen because the population is already quite vulnerable and they've been weakened by the numerous diseases that have affected Yemen. The problem is that people don't come to the facilities because they don't have the means to even pay for a taxi or other (travelling) facility. So we are afraid that people might just die at home instead of coming to a facility where they could be treated positively and survive the disease. For us, it's a struggle. And that's why we we are trying to increase our capacity to respond. We go through hiring more staff, training more health staff.

CO: The press release that Doctors Without Borders has put out, you've said that the coronavirus has made Yemen's health system collapse complete. So what does that mean for you and others? I mean, that sounds quite devastating.

CLAIRE HADUONG: Yeah, because when the COVID outbreak was sheared in Yemen, I mean, since April-May, we have seen that the regular hospital were refusing patients with respiratory issues. But it happened that hospitals were using patient after a car accident, which has nothing to do with any respiratory issues. And in our non-COVID centres, our regular hospitals we see quite an increase or so of cases because these patients have been refused in other hospitals, because the doctors don't want to come to work anymore because they don't have the protective equipment. And the health system in Yemen was not working very well already after five years of war. But here we saw that even private hospitals had been refusing patients. And we were very worried that all hospitals were being close, for example in Aden. And they were not admitting patients anymore because all the health staff were fearing COVID. And then where do you go when you have a broken leg and where do you go when you have to deliver and you need a C-section and you are being refused by three hospitals? It's really problematic.

CO: Yes. Your own medical activity manager, Dr. Nizar Jahlan, he's done a number of interviews, very powerful testimonies from Yemen describing what he was dealing with. But he actually came down with the virus himself. How is he doing? Has he recovered?

CLAIRE HADUONG: He has. He is very well. He cannot be here because he's back at work actually. He's working. He is a very dedicated worker and dedicated doctor and is working everyday in the COVID centre and really taking care of the patient. And yes, he is back at work.

CO: Good. I'm glad to hear that. Claire thank you so much.

CLAIRE HADUONG: Thank you.

CH: Claire HaDoung is the head of mission in Yemen for Doctors Without Borders. We reached her in Sana'a.

[Music]

Canada-U.S. Border

CH: The world's longest undefended border has been closed to nonessential travel for weeks now. So the news that the Canada-U.S. border is likely to remain closed has many wondering for how long exactly. According to Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland, the current arrangement is, quote, "working very well." Meaning she believes it's working well to defend against the spread of coronavirus between the two countries. But according to the families who are separated on either side of the border since March, the arrangement really isn't working very well. In an interview with CBC News, COVID advisor Dr. Anthony Fauci was asked what he'd like to see for the border to safely reopen.

ANTHONY FAUCI: I am not an expert on closing and opening borders. What you would like to see under any circumstances that go well beyond the opening and closing of borders would be to see a significant diminution consistently in the number of cases, hospitalizations and obviously deaths. In the United States, if you look at a whole, we have a significant diminution in the number of deaths, a significant diminution in the number of hospitalization. We also as a whole have been going down with cases. But I think what you mentioned about some states now having an increase in the number of cases makes one pause and be a little bit concerned. But I don't want to extrapolate that to making any statements about border closing.

CH: That was Dr. Anthony Fauci speaking with the CBC's Rosemary Barton.

[Music]

Covid 19 Light-Up Mask

Guest: Tyler Glaiel

CH: Now that we're all supposed to wear masks, we have even less to work with in terms of assessing social situations. Is that person smiling, frowning, or grimacing? What does that thing their eyes are doing mean? How do I know if this guy has a mustache or not? Well, Tyler Glaiel's invention can't help you with that last question, but it does give you an idea of what expression is hidden by the mask. He's developed a new electronically modified COVID-19 mask that simulates the way the face behind it looks. We reached Mr. Glaiel in Santa Cruz, California.

CO: If I was wearing one of your masks and speaking, what would it look like to people?

TYLER GLAIEL: Well, it would look like the mask has a mouth that is moving, like your mouth moves when you talk. It moves up and down when you talk. And you can also make it smile if you make a popping noise. So there's a bunch of lights on the front of it and they make like a circular mouth shape as you're talking and it opens and closes as you talk.

CO: Okay. So the lights correspond to the shape of your mouth as it's moving.

TG: Sort of. It's like an animation. It's animated effect. So it's not super accurate or anything. But it looks convincing enough to sell the effect to make it look like you're talking through the mask almost.

CO: It wouldn't be precise enough if somebody was a lip reader that they would be able to figure out what you were saying without hearing it.

TG: Oh, no, absolutely not. If anyone was trying to lip read this mask, they would just think that you're saying you "Oooo wooow" [laughter] over and over again. It's just completely unpractical for that purpose.

CO: Okay. A lot of vowel sounds then.

TG: Yeah. It just makes the same shape over and over again. Just a big open mouth and a closed mouth. You can't lip read from it.

CO: How does it know what shape to -- as you say, it's not exactly precise -- but how do the lights get the information to give the shape?

TG: Well there is a microphone on the mask itself. And it's right next to your mouth. So the sensitivity on the mic is really low. So it's only picking up the sound from you talking. It's not picking up any environmental sounds or anything. And then it uses that microphone, the volume of how loud you're talking to determine how wide the mouth should show on the mask.

CO: And so it gives a corresponding shape.

TG: Yeah. The louder you're talking, the more open the mouth is.

CO: Okay. So how do you get it to smile then?

TG: To smile, you make a popping noise or a click [makes click sound]. Any short fast noise. And then the mask will detect that as a smile. And it'll show the smile for a couple of seconds.

CO: But what if you're not really smiling and your mask is giving the big smile? I mean, people think you're smiling and you're not really?

TG: Well, I mean, you have to manually do a popping noise to have the mask smile. So when you're happy, you just have to go [makes popping sound] and it'll show a smile. You could be making any face you want underneath the mask. You could be sticking out your tongue, but if you make that popping noise, people will think you're smiling.

CO: All right. Now, I've seen the video of you wearing this, and it is a very intense experience to see these lights. It's pretty. It's kind of scary, isn't it? So what did you want to do this? Why did you want to create this face mask?

TG: Well, I was just, you know, bored in quarantine like everyone else. And I was curious, had the idea for a mask like this and was just curious if one existed. So I did some research online and I was looking around on like Etsy and Amazon to see if there were any light-up face masks. And there really wasn't any -- like there were none that did this. I found one face mask that could scroll text across the front of it or whatever. That's not the same thing. [Chuckles] I wanted something that looked like you were talking. So it didn't exist. And then I decided to set out to see if I could just make one myself.

CO: And have you been out and about in public wearing this?

TG: Yeah, I wore it out in public once so far. It's very impractical and not very comfortable. So it's not something that I want to wear regularly. Like, sometimes I just want to go into the store and buy my stuff and leave. The one time that I wore it out just solely to show off the mask. I was getting a lot of reactions from it. And a lot of people who are just not reacting at all to it which was weird as well. Some people were scared you could tell.

CO: Yes. [Chuckles] It is pretty freaky. Did you get anybody wanting to know where you got it and so they could get one for themselves?

TG: I've had a lot of people ask online where they can buy one. So far, all I've done is I posted article that shows you how to make one because I'm not manufacturing them at the moment. And I figure it's a fun little electronics projects for people who want to get into that stuff. So I posted a blog post that has all the links to all the parts that you need for it and very detailed instructions on how to make it.

CO: But you also told...

TG: And I'm currently selling them. So I'm looking into it now. Enough people have requested the ability to purchase them that it's worth looking into, if that's possible. But no guarantees yet.

CO: And you've warned people it's fairly uncomfortable. So do you think you could make one that was a bit more pleasurable to wear? [Chuckles]

TG: I don't know. That's the challenge, isn't it? [Chuckles] I have no idea what it takes to do that. I just have something that functionally works. But we'll see if I can make that happen.

CO: There are some really creative masks out there, aren't there?

TG: So at least regarding the ones that light-up with your voice, like after I posted mine, there were a couple of people that posted that they had made one similar. And I think mine's a little better. [Chuckles] But there's a lot of masks that are not electronic that have impressed me. At least regarding accessibility issues for deaf people, the much better solution than trying to solve it with electronics is to just put a little plastic transparent window in the front of the mask so you can see people's actual mounts.

CO: One of my favorites is a mask that if you get a photo of your face printed onto the mask, and so you're smiling all the time. So I've seen these ones where no what's going on behind the mask, they look like they're smiling.

TG: Yeah. And I saw a video of some guy who had like a pulley system hooked up to his mask through the brim of his baseball cap that would open the front of his mask and so he could eat through it, which was kind of funny, completely kind of defeats the purpose of a mask. But it makes a funny video on the Internet.

CO: There is another one where some woman has cut a hole in it because she said she was having a hard time breathing so she cut holes near the nose and mouth. [Laughs]

TG: Yeah.

CO: Oh gosh. Anyway, Tyler it's fun just to talk to you. And good luck with your mask.

TG: Thank you.

CO: Take care. Bye bye.

TG: Bye.

CH: Tyler Glaiel is a programmer and game developer. We reached him in Santa Cruz, California, and you can read and see more, including that mask on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Steve the goose

CH: Steve is not your typical pet. First of all, he is a goose who likes to cuddle with his humans and follows them around indoors and out. And it turns out those are not the only ways that Steve disrupts the pecking order. This week, the goose went missing from his enclosure outside of its Moosejaw home. And his owner, Carla Shymko, wasn't sure her family would ever see him again. But as Ms. Shymko told the CBC's Stefani Langenegger the search for Steve was full of surprises that left her with goose bumps.

CARLA SHYMKO: My daughter and I and the boys, we all went looking around. And then I decided to put it on Facebook. I was a little leery about doing that just because I didn't want people to think I was absolutely crazy looking for a goose. And people just responded. Like I had strangers asking if they wanted me, you know, wanted them to come out and drive around and help look for him. And it was just crazy. It was overwhelming. And later on in the afternoon, I got an email from a lady in Saskatoon who had shared the post with some friends of hers that lived close to us. And I guessed one of their daughters had seen a fox early that morning carrying a goose in its mouth.

STEFANI LANGENEGGER: [Gasps] Oh my gosh. So you must have thought that's what happened to Steve then?

CARLA SHYMKO: Yep. So we figured he was gone.

STEFANI LANGENEGGER: But then what happened, Carla?

CARLA SHYMKO: So we went to bed thinking he was gone and we woke up in the morning to pecking at the back door at our sliding doors and went back there and here was Steve waiting for us. Honestly, the whole day, it was unbelievable. Like, we just kept going "Oh, my gosh. Can't believe he's back. Can't believe he's back." We were so happy to see him. And you could tell, he was so happy to see us. Very tired. Very lethargic. Very dirty. A little bit of blood. You could just tell that he had the fight of his life. Just in amazement that he found his way home.

CH: Carla Shymko and her family live just outside Moosejaw, Saskatchewan, and are the proud owners of a fox-fighting goose named Steve.

[Music]

German One-On-One Concert

Guest: Stephanie Winker

CH: In March, Stuttgart, Germany's two main orchestras, closed due to the coronavirus. But some of its members kept performing anyway. In fact, they've held nearly 1500 performances since the pandemic and resulting quarantine rules began. Obviously, they're not playing to audiences of hundreds in soft-seat concert halls. Each of them is playing in a garden or an empty factory to one person at a time. Stephanie Winker came up with the idea of what are called "One to one concerts." She plays the flute. We reached her today in Frankfurt.

CO: Stephanie, why was it so important to you and others that there should still be live music, that there should be an audience of some kind when you play?

STEPHANIE WINKER: As a musician, I think we just depend on resonance. This is really what our, let's say, salary is because we don't depend so much on money, but we depend on reaction to what we do. So we can communicate. And for communication, you just need somebody who listens.

CO: And describe the scene. Who is the audience for one of these performances?

SW: Anybody who is interested in experiencing this can be an audience. You'll find out maybe through the Internet, maybe by a friend who has been telling you about this, and then you sign up for it and you arrive, your host greets you and your musician is waiting for you. You take place on a chair and your concert starts. You can be a four year old child and you can be a 100 year old grandmother, we had all of these.

CO: But you're alone. You're the only audience member for that solo performance.

SW: This is what it is. And it's so special and important that it's only one person, because what happens first is that you just exchange eye contact with the person sitting across and you don't talk at all. And after about one minute, the musician decides what kind of music he or she's going to play. So as a listener, you are as important a part in this performance as the musician is because he or she will just take what happened emotionally between you both and make it sound, make it into music.

CO: What are some of the venues that these musicians have been playing in?

SW: We really enjoy playing in concert venues that aren't commonly associated with classical music. We play in closed bars and clubs. We play on rooftop terraces. We play in gardens. I guess the most unusual was of a goat stable where the goats were still there and they had their little babies and they were all really calm and listening and chewing while I was playing. It was one of the most peaceful concert settings I ever had.

CO: And who is your audience member?

SW: When we play as musicians, we have at least four people in a row. We play for about five to 10 minutes and then the audience member changes. So when I play, I see within one hour, four different people.

CO: How do you decide what to play for them?

SW: I have a choice of music on my music stand. I bring my Telemann fantasies, I bring the Partita by JS Bach, and the solo sonata by Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach. I bring some Debussy. I might bring out Honegger. And after I meet my listener, I decide where I can meet the atmosphere best that was created between the two of us.

CO: And people who have been at these one to one concerts say that this staring into each other's eyes, this minute. You have at the beginning when you're looking at each other, is just an overwhelming experience to set up the actual performance. Where did that idea come from? What inspired that part of the program?

SW: Well, we knew that we wanted to have just one person on each side. And if you look into each other's eyes, you become extremely close and you become extremely vulnerable in a positive sense. And also the artist Marina Abramovic has used that in her performance "The artist is present" that also features her as an artist and a visitor sitting across at the table and they look into each other's eyes. And that was something we had in mind. And we thought, could that work if we combined it with music?

CO: We have interviewed Marina Abramovic about that experience where she studied it.

SW: Oh really?!

CO: Yeah, she'd sit in a chair for eight hours a day. And she was talking about how profound the emotion it was as she looked into the eyes of strangers.

SW: It is. Sometimes people start to cry after half a minute. Sometimes people find a wonderful peace. You can just see how they relax, how they let go. It's really really touching. And it's just as profound on the musician's side as it is on the audience's side. And to imagine that once you're so raw and so open and then a beautiful music starts, it hits you right in the heart.

CO: Have you heard of any other countries, any other places where this idea of one to one concerts, as you've described them, have you inspired any other places to start having these performances?

SW: Yeah. It's curious that you ask because a friend in England wants to start them. We have friends in New York who are working on starting them. Actually yeah in Austria. In Switzerland, the Orchestre de la Suisse Romande is going to start. So it's happening. And also, if Canada wants to join in, we would be more than thrilled.

CO: I was just going to say that you didn't mention Canada. I think we absolutely need to have this here. So hope it gets inspired here.

SW: Oh it would be wonderful and we would support them with all we can.

CO: Stephanie it's lovely to speak with you. Thank you.

SW: Thank you very much Carol. Have a good day.

CO: You too.

CH: Stephanie Winker is the creator of and a musician in Stuttgart's "One to one concert series."

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June 11, 2020 Episode Transcript

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