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The AIH Transcript for June 10, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I’m Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CO: A shot in the dark. It took 34 years for prosecutors to crack the case of who killed Sweden's Prime Minister. One of his aides tells us what today's stunning breakthrough means to the country, and to him.

CO: Post op-complications. In March, journalist Sydney Loney shared the shock and stress of having her cancer surgery put off by the Covid-19 crisis. Now, after weeks in limbo, there's good news.

CH: And… Raging bullfrog. We find something truly strange in the As It Happens archives: A cat from the early eighties that weirded everyone out with its bizarre meowing.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Sweden PM cold case, Sydney Loney update, “Cops” cancelled

Sweden PM cold case

Guest: Pierre Schori

CH: There has been no more enduring mystery in Sweden, than the mystery of who killed Prime Minister Olof Palme in 1986. But today, prosecutors say they believe they know the answer. And they hope it gives Swedes a bit of closure. Prime Minister Palme was shot in the back by an unknown assassin on a cold February night 34 years ago. From February 1986, here's how CBC correspondent David Brown reported the news.

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DAVID BROWN: By early this morning, a crowd was huddled in the dark and cold of central Stockholm in a state of tragic shock. Around the spot where Prime Minister Olof Palme was killed by a lone gunman. Inside the cordoned-off square was a small bunch of red roses, and a simple candle left quietly by passers-by, Mr. Palme was an international statesman, a man of peace in a country of peace. Police and security forces tightened control at Sweden’s border checkpoints and airports, hoping to catch an assassin who is still at large.

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CH: Today, prosecutors said they have reasonable evidence to conclude the man who shot Prime Minister Olof Palme was Stig Engstrom, a graphic designer. Mr. Engstrom was repeatedly interviewed by police, but dismissed as a suspect. The case is effectively closed, because Mr. Engstrom died by suicide 20 years ago. Pierre Schori is a Swedish diplomat who served in Prime Minister Palme's government. He's also the chairman of the Olof Palme Memorial Fund. We reached him in Stockholm.

CO: Mr. Schori, first of all, what does it mean to you, 34 years later, to see Olof Palme’s murder possibly solved?

PIERRE SCHORI: Well, it's, of course, huge relief, because we have been living with this, just like the Americans with JFK in a mystery. And somehow we wanted to have a conclusion. And they have been criticized a lot here in Sweden today. But I have complete confidence in this new team, who took over three years ago, and went through 30 years of documents, witnesses, testimonies, et cetera. They discovered witnesses who were ignored, but really saw things at the place of the murder because they were obsessed at a time with a different lead, namely the PKK, the Turkish National Liberation Movement.

CO: Okay, I just want to ask you about it. Because just in that little tape clip we had from our own CBC report at the time. And the word is that they're tightening the borders, they're closing borders, they're looking for an international assassin. That's right away, the police seem to think it's someone, you say the PKK, what was it about Prime Minister Palme that immediately led police to believe that he was assassinated by someone from outside the country?

PS: Because we are not used to that kind of crimes and violence, and we were not in those days. And also, of course, with the engagement of Olof Palme, his standing up for human rights all over the world, daring to confront also the United States or the Soviet Union when they waged war in Afghanistan. Standing up against apartheid and dictatorships. Of course, he had enemies, but many more friends, including Pierre Trudeau. And I myself, I was the deputy foreign minister at that time. And we got lots of leads and information from our embassies in Chile, in South Africa and elsewhere who were giving some kind of tips, which would be worthwhile to follow up at the time. So, of course, it was reasonable to think that it must be some kind of foreign alien force behind this.

CO: And he was such a figure at the time. And need is when when this happened in the ‘80s, it was just so disturbing because, as you point out, he was so outspoken against what was happening in the Soviet Union, but also in the United States with General Pinochet, with international events. He was outspoken. And how was it received in Sweden? What was the response, I guess, even to this day, the assassination of Olof Palme?

PS: I mean, the overwhelming majority of people were behind him. I mean, he was a successful prime minister for many years, for nine years. He really delivered a message, a narrative, every time he spoke and he spoke almost every day. You kept repeating the ideas that you must have peace at home to get peace in the world. You must have social justice, equity and human rights here and abroad. But he had also, of course, a small group of fanatics who are really, you know, the hate mongers type, who use all kinds of methods to attack him and including to kill him.

CO: But, in the end, what we've learned, and if the prosecutors are right, is that it wasn't an international conspiracy, a foreign agent. It was a man, a Swede, a graphic designer at an insurance company, Stig Engstrom, who is now fingered as the person who assassinated the Olof Palme. Why do you think prosecutors didn't ever consider him until quite recently?

PS: Because the first team there, they just ignored him and others that we also suggested might be looked into. And that is where the new team now, they dug out this first interrogation they did with this guy, with Engstrom. And it shows that there are so many things that they missed also from several witnesses at the time who could really, more or less, finger him. And they say if this case could have been solved in April of 1986, if they have just looked into the material which they have now gone through, it's a tragedy that it developed like that. But this guy, he was very much involved in anti-Palme groups. And they were vitriolic at the time.

CO: This man who is not able to be prosecuted because he killed himself in 2000. And so, but his wife, his ex-wife, says that she doesn't believe it, that he wouldn't have done something like that. How confident are you that this is the man? That prosecutors have actually now found the right person?

PS: Well, I listened intensely to the presentation of the case today, and it was a convincing case for me. And I have also confidence in this new group because they also interviewed me twice, and I understood they are very thorough. They wanted really to turn any stone over to investigate all kinds of ideas and clues, and so on. So it's a very competent and professional job they have done. But of course, they are not a court. It would have gone to court, of course. But I think the overwhelming majority here will say that they will accept this and they will also think that now this can end finally.

CO: And what does it mean today for people in Sweden? Because this was often considered to be the moment Sweden lost his innocence, when it was possible that a horrible crime like this could happen in your own capital. So how are people responding in Sweden today?

PS: I think that people would not say today, Palme should not have done this. He shouldn't have said that. He shouldn't have condemned Pinochet. He should have said to the Americans, you’re wrong in Vietnam, and to the Soviets in Afghanistan. No, we were — and are — very proud that he stood up. He gave voice to the voiceless, and to the oppressed. So I think I'm at ease at that. And I would say also I think the families are.

CO: Mr. Schori, we will leave it there. And I appreciate speaking with you and getting the background of the story. Thank you.

PS: Thank you.

CO: All right. Goodnight.

PS: Goodnight.

CH: Pierre Schori is a Swedish diplomat, and a former close aide to Prime Minister Olof Palme, who was assassinated in 1986. Today, prosecutors named the man they believe killed Prime Minister Palme. For more on this story, go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Sydney Loney update

Guest: Sydney Loney

CH: The last two-and-a-half months have been an excruciating time for Sydney Loney and her family. We spoke to the Toronto-area writer and editor in late March. That's when she learned that her life-saving breast cancer surgery had been postponed indefinitely. She told us then that the more difficult part was breaking the news to her ten and 13-year-old kids.

“Cops” cancelled

Guest: Arisha Michelle Hatch

CH: "Cops" is cancelled. Not in the sense many protesters are currently calling for. But in a sense that some protesters have been demanding for years. I'm referring to the TV show "Cops" — which along with that theme music you’re hearing has aired on FOX, Spike and most recently Paramount Network for an astonishing thirty-plus years. And a new season of the reality series was scheduled to premiere this month. But in the wake of widespread protests over police brutality and anti-Black racism, Paramount pulled the plug. For Arisha Michelle Hatch, it's good riddance. Ms. Hatch is the vice president and chief of campaigns at Color of Change, which helped convince FOX to cancel "Cops" back in 2013 — only to see it get back on the air. We reached Ms. Hatch in Corona, California.

CO: Arisha, the last time you helped to cancel this show, “Cops”, it just got picked up by another network and carried on. Do you think that might happen again this time?

ARISHA MICHELLE HATCH: I'm hopeful that it doesn't. But it has been like “Whack-A-Mole”. In addition to not creating new shows, there's also a lot of reruns out there. So it's incredibly important that Paramount took this first step. But there's still a lot of work to do to sort of change the way the criminal justice system is represented on television.

CO: As you mentioned, there are so many reruns. Sometimes there can be 20 in a single day through syndication of “Cops”. And so it's hard to believe anyone hasn't seen it at this point. But can you just describe the show briefly for those who might not know what it's about?

AMH: Sure. “Cops” is a so-called reality television show that actually follows, puts cameras in police cars, has them follow them on some of their incident checks and sort of puts it on TV. And it has become a part of American culture. And I'm sure it, you know, is broadcast worldwide, that reinforces the sort of law and order mentality. What we see in these videos are Black people, Brown people and other poor people being overpoliced. And yet, it is somehow glamorized. And so the representations that it's produced over the last several decades have been incredibly problematic. And “Cops”, and other so-called reality shows like this, enable more police violence, and they bury evidence of police violence.

CO: And as you say, it's billed as unscripted and unfiltered. But its own creator, John Langley, told the producers of “Running From Cops”, it's a podcast about the show. He said that they allow the law enforcement officers, the departments, to actually vet the episodes. And here's just a clip of what John Langley had to say about that.

[sc]

DAN TABERSKI: What do you give up for access?

JOHN LANGLEY: We let them look at the shows, and if they have a real problem, we will change something. So, I mean, I want to show what happens to the greatest extent possible. Now, I'm an invitational show. I don't have 100 per cent control on it. Guess what? I don't get to put on things because of networks not allowing me to have somebody say Jesus Christ on a show. So give me a [expletive] break.

[/sc]

CO: All right. So he has no problem with the police actually vetting these episodes. What do you think?

AMH: I think that shows like “Cops” have behaved as the PR arm of police departments all across the country. And we are now living through a transformational moment, a moment when people across the globe are thinking about a new vision for what policing, for what safety and justice looks like. And the representations that we are seeing on shows like “Cops” don't comport with the vision of the future that we want to see.

CO: But, at the same time, you see the police, who obviously have input into how they are depicted in the programs. What's really fascinating and hard to explain is how many of the people who they're arresting we see their faces. We can see who they are. And apparently, they have to sign waivers, and the producers claim that they do so willingly. What do you make of that?

AMH: I think what's happening, what we're seeing playing out on the cameras of “Cops”, is catching people at one of their lowest moments. And whether or not someone is in the frame of mind to actually sign a waiver, I think, is a larger legal question. But there's an exploitation. There are definitely tons of civil liberties concerns. Sometimes these images move forward before someone’s had a trial. The people who are being taken advantage of are poor people. And it's deeply problematic for these sorts of shows to continue to exist.

CO: And there's also, I guess, in the same investigation about how “Cops” is produced. They are chasing down some of the people who were actually the people who are being arrested. One man said that he was threatened with more charges if he didn't sign. In some cases, producers apparently pursued people into court to harass them into signing. One woman was denied bail bond until she signed. And some of these people are, in the end, acquitted. They're not found guilty of anything — that the drugs they seem to find in the cars are not drugs at all. And these cases don't amount to things. But those faces are still on these TV shows and in these reruns. So what effect do you think that has on the people who are actually being depicted in these shows?

AMH: I think it can have lifelong consequences for folks. And it's traumatic in and of itself to have that sort of moment captured and branded and reproduced, repackaged to make you seem in a certain light. I think part of the appeal of “Cops”, and it speaks to like an awful side of humanity, but it's part of the appeal to “Cops”, is people feeling like they're better than, or sometimes the show tends to like mock the people who might be in the middle of a mental health crisis, might have a drug or alcohol problems. And it just really sort of makes a mockery of the pain that many people are experiencing.

CO: Your campaign to cancel this show started just after Trayvon Martin was killed in 2012. How different is the moment we're in now, eight years later?

AMH: I think more people are aware of the public health crisis that is over overpolicing and mass incarceration. People are talking about policing and police violence. And the way in which these shows sort of enable these sorts of mentalities.

CO: We will leave it there. Arisha, thank you.

AMH: Thank you so much for having me.

CO: Bye-bye.

CH: Arisha Michelle Hatch is the vice president and chief of campaigns at Color of Change. We reached her in Corona, California.

[Music: Horns!]

Part two: Ontario daycare opening, bullfrog meow

Ontario daycare opening

Guest: Sheila Olan-Maclean

CH: The kids will be playing around. But the Ontario government wants you to know it won't be. Yesterday, at a news conference, Premier Doug Ford said child-care centres could reopen across the province as early as Friday, as long as they follow certain guidelines. And in his announcement, Education Minister Stephen Lecce said the province would take a zero tolerance approach to non-compliance.

[sc]

STEPHEN LECCE: We will be increasing penalties by 1,000 dollars a day per child, or a net 50 per cent increase in the penalty regime. We will also be stepping up inspections to ensure compliance and safety. Make no mistake, when it comes to your kid's safety, we are taking all precautions that you can return to work while having the peace of mind that your child is cared for.

[/sc]

CH: Sheila Olan-Maclean is the CEO of Compass Early Learning and Child Care in Peterborough, Ontario. Her organization oversees thirty child-care centres and fifty home daycare providers. We've reached Ms. Olan-Maclean in Peterborough.

ISMAILA ALFA: How much pressure was there from the boss to keep working through sickness?

Edgar: [Speaking: Spanish]

BILL KNOTT: [translating] We don't have direct contact with the bosses. There is a foreman, and there are kind of local supervisors on the teams, but they were speaking with those people every day, telling them that one of our colleagues is sick, but they did not seem to have the basic decency to either ask for a doctor, or to at least kick it up to the managers to say, hey, there's a problem here that people are getting sick. There was a certain amount of pressure to increase production, to work harder, and that there was actually pressure put on those who were sick. They were told that they were falling behind. And your colleagues aren't getting ahead of you.

Edgar: [Speaking: Spanish]

IA: As people are getting sick, as workers are getting sick, how easy was it to protect yourself from getting sick yourself?

Edgar: [Speaking: Spanish]

BILL KNOTT: [translating] In terms of protective equipment, we asked for rubber gloves. We thought that would be something that would be doled out to the workers. But they were not, nor were face coverings, masks.

[/sc]

CH: Edgar is a temporary foreign worker from Mexico who is isolating after contracting COVID-19. He told Ismaila Alfa about the outbreak on a farm near Simcoe, Ontario — through interpreter Bill Knott. The farm is owned by the Scottlynn group. Our colleagues at "Metro Morning" contacted the Scottlynn group but received no response.

CH: Bullfrogs eat anything they can. Mice, spiders, fish, turtles — I guess they just spit the shell out — snakes, birds. Oh, and they eat other bullfrogs like they were popcorn. So they're pretty well-known for the weird stuff that goes in their giant mouths. But less so for the weird stuff that comes out of those mouths. We know they make that rhythmic rumble, like someone trying to blow a half-deflated balloon out of a bass trombone. But 40 years ago, As It Happens listeners were introduced to a new kind of bullfrog music. And frankly, they liked the old stuff better. Here's Al Maitland, introducing guest host Joe Coté's conversation with Gordon Grovestein, in 1980.

[sc]

AL MAITLAND: If there is much in this world these days to confuse and bewilder us, fortunately, there is also much to give sense and stability and order to the universe. Take, for instance, the simple wonders of nature, or more specifically, take your average bullfrog. The bullfrog cannot be counted on for much, but we do know that he sits on lily pads, catches, flies and croaks, you know, ribbit, ribbit. Ah, would it if so! In Charlottetown, there does exist a frog who has found a different voice, has broken from the mold, or perhaps is a mite schizophrenic. Nevertheless, he is the pride and the joy of University of Prince Edward Island laboratory technologist Gordon Grovestein. We've reached Mr. Grovestein — and his frog — in Charlottetown.

JOE COTE: Mr. Grovestein, is this just your average run of the pond bullfrog?

GORDON GROVESTEIN: Well, actually, we originally thought he was. We had about 24. And he showed no signs of being any different than the normal frog. However, on handling, he came out with some very unique utterances, at least for a frog, that is.

JC: What happened when you first heard him do whatever he does?

GG: Well, actually, it was during a lab period with the physiology students, and we weren't quite sure whether to believe what was happening or whether it was just a freak occurrence. [laughing] However, the students were very amused at what had happened.

JC: Just as well that you had witnesses. It may be that no one would have believed you otherwise.

GG: I think possibly that if I tried to explain to somebody what was going on, they might have thought I was a little off.

JC: You heard the sound. Did you know where it was coming from?

GG: [said while laughing] Well, yes, the frog was in my hand, so it's kind of difficult not to know where it was coming from, but it still caught us by surprise.

JC: I gotta hear it. Have you got him there?

GG: Yeah, I do. Yes, sir.

JC: Okay. Well, I'll listen in.

GG: Okay. Now, I'd like you to realize that I'm not harming the animal in any way. And here he goes.

[Sound: I guess, you could call this sound cat-like. I would say it sounds more like a mosquito buzzing, but I suppose it isn’t up to me, is it?]

GG: Okay, did you get that?

JC: Did we ever!

GG: [frog is in the distance] And he's still going here. Now, along with his vocalization, [laughing] he also goes through some contortions, and he blows himself up quite, quite large. And I noticed yesterday that he's sort of cocking his head back and forth too periodically when he does meow.

JC: How big is he?

GG: Oh, he'd be about ten inches long, I would think, and —

JC: That’s a big frog!

GG: Yes. Yes. Now, you have to remember that it's not native to our part of the world. We import these from the United States. I would think probably from Louisiana or in that area. Because we noticed that when we do dissections with them, that they are full of crayfish. In other words, they feed on crayfish.

JC: Are you tempted to dissect this one and find out what makes him meow?

GG: [laughing] No, I don't think so. Matter of fact, it's sort of a curiosity around here, but a lot of the students think he may have swallowed a little whisler. But no, we'll probably keep this fellow because we have school tours of both high school students and elementary students that come around. And certainly, an oddity of this sort would be nice to have to show them.

JC: Aside from him having swallowed a whistle or something, can you figure out why he can make that sound?

GG: No, I haven't had a chance, really. [laughing] We don't have a zoologist on hand that knows anything or has heard anything like this before. So I don't know. We may be talking to other people that have had this happen to them. [the frog meows] Oh, there he goes again. [laughing] Sorry about that.

JC: He just does this?

GG: He's just sitting in my hand here now.

JC: He's not angry or anything?

GG: [laughing] Well, I imagine he might be angry with me holding on to him. But, you know, [more laughing] he just decided that he wanted to do that.

JC: You're somewhat attached to him yourself, no doubt?

GG: Well, actually, yes. Now that he's made the front page of our local paper and As It Happens, [laughing] I think we probably have to put an insurance policy on him or something.

JC: Well, could we talk to Kermit's Revenge again, and get another sound from him?

GG: Sure. I'll see if I can get him primed up here.

JC: It is him, is it?

[Sound: There’s that cry again]

GG: [laughing] Actually, we're not quite sure if it is a him. [laughing] It's very difficult to to sex a frog out of season, so to speak.

JC: Maybe that's what he's complaining about?

GG: [laughing] It could very well be.

JC: Mr. Grovestein, thank you very much.

GG: Thank you very much, Sir.

JC: It’s been Fun. Bye.

GG: Great. Bye-bye

[/sc]

CH: Guest host Joe Coté speaking with PEI lab technician Gordon Grovestein about his meowing bullfrog on March 12th, 1980. One day later, that mystery was solved, thanks to a call to Talkback. Michael Enright got Mr. Grovestein back on the line, and connected him with Aleta Karstad — author and illustrator of a book on Canadian wildlife.

[sc]

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Now, Mr. Grovestein, we heard your meowing frog last night. We want to hear him again. Is he handy? Have you got him there?

GG: Yes. One of the students has it right here. And it probably just take a second for him to get into his better voice, shall I say?

ME: Okay.

GG:Okay.

ME: Let's see if we can hear him now.

GG: Let's hope he doesn't let us down [laughing]

ME: Is he chilly? Is that what it is?

[Sound: This meowing again, really?]

GG: Okay, did you get that, Mrs. Karstad?

ALETA KARSTAD: Oh, yes, I did.

GG: Right.

ME: God! Mrs. Karstad, now, you say that that's not an unusual noise from a frog.

AK: No, it isn't. I have heard a big female leopard frog make quite a startling scream. And it's pretty impressive, isn't it? [chuckling]

ME: It sure is. It's not to say weird.

AK: Yes, it's kind of a relief call that it's directed to startle a predator. And sometimes it even attracts a predator to the captor.

ME: But Mr. Grovestein’s frog, as far as we know, isn't in any danger at the moment?

AK: No, I think he's a neurotic frog, actually. [AK and GG laughing] I think he’s a crybaby. [everyone laughs]

ME: Mr. Grovestein, what do you say about that?

GG: [laughing] Well, I think with all of the interviews and that the frog has been through, and the amount of handling that he's had, I might tend to agree with Mrs. Karstad that he is a neurotic frog. [laughing] However, that's giving us another human connotation to an animal. But, yes, I totally agree with her. [the frog crying] Oh, we've got him going in the background here. He's just sitting on my knee.

ME: Good God!

GG: And I don't think I'm scaring him to death, but I might very well be.

ME: Well, do his eyes blink, or does he jump around or what?

GG: Well, he just sits in the hand and opens his mouth and proceeds to yell or meow.

AK: Just his mouth opening is interesting. It's the only call a frog make where the mouth is open.

GG: I see.

AK: All the other noises that all frogs and toads make are made with the mouth closed, and the hair is just being pushed back and forth between the mouth cavity and the vocal sack.

GG: I see.

ME: Mr. Grovestein, thanks very much. Thank you, Mrs. Karstad.

GG: Thank you very much.

AK: Yes, thank you.

ME: Talk to you again, though.

GG: Okay, bye-bye.

AK: Bye.

ME: Bye.

[/sc]c

CH: From 1980, Michael Enright speaking with Gordon Grovestein and Aleta Karstad about the haunting meow of the bullfrog.

[Music: Elevator music]

Part three: Old theatre found, Saudi women escape, pink flamingo

New Brunswick COVID stigma

[/sc]

CH: That was New Brunswick Liberal MLA Guy Arseneault. Here's the answer he got a bit later from Premier Blaine Higgs.

[/sc]

CH: That was the premier of New Brunswick, Blaine Higgs, speaking in the Legislature today.

Old theatre found

Guest: Stephen White

CH: There have been many stages in Stephen White's archaeological career. But this may be the most important, and the most literal, stage of all. Years ago, the U.K. man and his colleagues were called in to do a survey of a construction site in east London. Today, University College London said in a press release that the archaeologists believe they may have found the "remains of what is thought to be the earliest Elizabethan playhouse." It's called the Red Lion, and it's thought to date back to the mid 1560s. Stephen White is the archaeologist who directed the excavation. We reached him in London.

CO: Stephen, how long have people been looking for the Red Lion?

STEPHEN WHITE: Well, I mean, I think it's the case that people are looking for it for a very long time. I mean, it was first discovered, if you will, in a historical documents in the 1980s. A chap called Berry and a lady called Janet Lowenguard located a couple of lawsuits that related to it. Before that point, it’d really been kind of unknown. So it's very much been the case that since you were made aware of it, and the date that it was built, which is nine years before The Theatre, which has long been seen as being the original sort of Elizabethan theatre, it's been the question of where was it? What form was it? Because all we knew about it was these legal documents.

CO: And what clued you in that this site, this location, which is outside of what it would have been London at the time, is actually the location where this theater might have been?

SW: So what we've done is we looked at lots of historic documents. So we did a historic map progression. We looked at lawsuits and land deeds. But this is all kind of done… The area that we dug had been flagged as a potential site. But as with these things, you know, people thought, well, it might be there. It might not. I mean, who can say? So they flagged this potential site. We went along, started digging, and we uncovered stuff that very much fits [chuckling] the descriptions that we know of the theatre from these documents. It’s quite incredible, really. I mean, we have this large timber structure that almost exactly matches the dimensions of the stage as described in a lawsuit in 1567. I mean, it's quite, quite remarkable, really.

CO:Wow! And what did, or what does, the theatre, what might it have looked like as far as how much audience, what kind of a stage it had?

SW: The stage would've been 30 foot by 40 foot, so 40 foot north-south by 34 foot east-west, or 12 metres by nine-and-a-bit, which is in the ten metres in new money. And the overall structure, so if you imagine you’ve got this on the right-hand side, the eastern side of it, you've got this stage that's longer north-south and east-west. And actually the shape of the playhouse was rectangular going to the west. So it's about 30 metres in total, east to west. And if you can imagine like a line of posts along the north and the south, and that's your sort of northern southern walls. And the western wall had double lines of these very large, very big post holes. Looks like they’re were structural supports for an upper seating or standing deck. So you're talking a seating area or standing area, you know, the pit is right down the front of the stage, an open area, about 20 by ten metres, roughly. So, you know, it depends on how much people like standing next to each other, I suppose, how close they can get [CO cuckles]. Which obviously is different at the moment [chuckling] than it would have been back then. So you're probably talking maybe a capacity of a hundred or more people.

CO: Wow! And this is understood to be the first permanent theatre, theatre, playhouse that has existed in England. So who was performing there? It was too early for Shakespeare. So what were people seeing there?

SW: So this is quite an interesting period of Elizabethan theatre. We're looking at that sort of transitional period between sort of more religiously-based plays to more secular sort plays. The sort of more bawdy stuff you associate with Shakespeare, if you will. So at the time, what you've got is traveling groups of players. You know, these traveling players could be comprised of ex-military. They could be former clergy, because it's not that long after the Reformation. It could well be even the youngest sons of landed aristocracy, really, whatever it might be. And they would all travel across the landscape, if you can imagine, like at a touring rock stars in the ‘70s and ‘80s, and the sort of level of carnage that went with them. That was kind of associated with them. And they would perform in inns, in villages inns. They might perform either inside or they might drag the tables out into the courtyard and sort of erect a temporary stage and perform there. And what this playhouse was is an attempt to create a permanent playing structure, not for, we think, a single group of players, but for the traveling players who have been passing through and gave them a performance space. And this has been 1567. And then we fast forward to 1576, you get the theatre being built. And that had a permanent presence of players who lived there, worked there and put on plays in that one performance space. And they stayed in that space. You sort of seeing this transition between almost nomadic players going to wherever they could raise a penny and get a bite to eat, to so much more a very sort of business side of it. Where you've got a set group. They'll have a repertoire and they'll just perform. But what makes it really interesting, from my point of view, is that the person who is responsible for construction of the Red Lion, a chap called John Brain. John Brain was the brother in law of Michael James Burbidge. James Burbidge, in partnership with Brain later, built The Theatre. And he was the person who put on Shakespeare's plays in the 1590s.

CO: You mentioned earlier there were a lot of things you found that spoke about how this space would have been used, what are some of the artifacts that you are uncovering at the site.

SW: We’ve got all sorts of things. And we had over 600 kilograms of pottery, for example. We had over 270 kilograms of animal bone, including potential baiting animals from later on its lifespan, glass, clay tobacco pipe. And what we very much had was an assemblage in sort of the 1600s, the 16th century or the 1500s, when this was active as a playhouse. It's kind of almost more a domestic, but also with hints of sort of more general multipurpose leisurewear. And as you move forward through time, what's particularly interesting is that this structure seems to stay in use and change use from being a playhouse to being potentially a baiting pit, which is not uncommon in London. You do get on the south bank of the Thames is well known for having bear baiting pits. Now, I'm not by any way asserting this is a bear baiting pit. But we have got evidence of dogs that very sadly had their teeth filed down, the canines filed down for the purposes of prolonging dogfights, we think. And they had wounds consistent with fighting with other animals.

CO: Well, it's quite a discovery. And thank you for telling us about it, Stephen.

SW: Thank you.

CO: Bye-bye.

SW: Bye-bye.

CH: Stephen White is an archaeologist with Archaeology South-East. That's the commercial branch of University College London's Institute of Archaeology. We reached him in London.

[Music: Classic rock]

Saudi women escape

CH: It's the kind of statement that, a year-and-a-half ago, would've been unthinkable for a young woman like Rahaf Mohammed. In solidarity with anti-racism activists, and those protesting George Floyd's death, the Saudi woman recently tweeted, "Black Lives Matter isn't a political stance. It's basic human rights ... It's always about human rights." In January 2019, Rahaf Mohammed was making a statement about her own rights. She was fleeing her abusive family in Saudi Arabia. She would eventually seek refuge in Canada. And As It Happens covered her dangerous journey. This week, that coverage was recognized with an award by the Radio, Television, Digital News Association of Canada. One of Carol's interviews was with a Saudi woman living in Canada. She was part of a secretive, online network trying to help Rahaf Mohammed from afar.

VOICE: I have known her like for a year -- but I know that she wanted to escape Saudi and her family and like her life and the abuse and all these -- you know the desire but you don't know exactly the plan or when.

CO: You knew that she wanted to get out, and then suddenly there she was telling you, I'm out and I can't go back.

VOICE: Yes. When she said they took my passport I said like, who? Who took it? And like she started telling me the whole story. It was shocking for me.

CO: Was there a network of people helping?

VOICE: It was just a feminist group trying to end woman in slavery. And most of us know this kind of life, you know? When we are abused. When we're -- we don't feel belonged there. And you cannot start to feel anger till the moment that you want to do something.

CO: This woman Rahaf al-Qunun,18-years-old. Thai officials said they're going to deport her. You and others were in constant communication with her during this time. How tense was that for her and for all of you?

VOICE: It was very scary because we were all the time on a group -- a group call. Some of us were sleeping and on call, you know? Because we need to like see all the direct messages on her account. we need to see the direct messages which one is important, and contact and reply to the journalist and other people who are important who can help. And there's some threatening messages from all people from Saudi Arabia. I have a lot of them from Saudi Arabia trying to threaten her -- like bullying, it's not nice.

CO: What effect do you think that this has had on women in Saudi Arabia in your support group that you are part of?

VOICE: I'm actually feeling some kind of guilt because her story went viral -- and I've heard about other women like their fathers, their brothers, they just took their phone and trying to find if they have connection with her. It is scary, you know, even when you are trying to support this campaign in Saudi Arabia you always have to cover your tracks because they might take your phone any time.

CO: But you are here in Canada -- we're not going to say where and we're not saying who you are -- we're not identifying you. Why are you afraid?

VOICE: [Exhales] I have my family there in Saudi Arabia. They don't know. They don't know nothing about my idea, my mind, you know? I don't want them to know this.

CO: Would you be in danger if it was known that you are trying to help these women?

VOICE: I was talking to my father when I last visited my family in Saudi and my father just told me that if I'm thinking to just leave Islam and not be a Muslim anymore that he's going to kill me by himself. And I just got so scared. You know it's your family. They're supposed to love you unconditionally. They should want me very happy. But when you see your family turns against you just for your beliefs, really? I mean it's something so scary -- you don't know who to trust anymore.

CO: This campaign, Save Rahaf, that you and other women around the world launched, do you think there are other women that you will now be helping in the same way?

VOICE: Yes, there's a lot of women asked me to help them. I can't help like this -- it's Rahaf and it's too much for me.

CO: Do you feel strong enough to mount this resistance that you're now part of -- do you feel you have the strength?

VOICE: Yes. I would do this to the end of my life maybe.

[/sc]

CH: From January 2019, that was Carol speaking with a Saudi woman living in Canada. We are not naming her, to protect her safety. Later that spring, a pair of Saudi sisters took inspiration from Rahaf Mohammed's brave act. Wafa and Maha al-Subaie spoke to Carol from Georgia, where they feared their family would track them down. Here's part of that conversation, from April 2019.

[sc]

WAFA: We are happy because we can sleep finally without violence, without threats, without anybody screaming in our face.

CO: many people thought that you were inspired by Rahaf Mohammed who fled from Saudi Arabia to Canada. But I understand Wafa that this plan to escape from your family -- you've had this for about five years. Is that right?

WAFA: Yes. Yes. Before Rahaf. When Rahaf's story in the public we were scared because we think our family know about what we want.

CO: Did it scare you when your father said that he thought that Rahaf should be killed for what she did?

WAFA: Yes so much. That moment I just go to my room and just cry because that make me so angry. I am scared. I can't do this anymore because they know what we want because Rahaf is so famous in my country.

CO: Maha you're different from your sister in that you had been married, you got a divorce, and you had to leave your child behind. Is that right?

MAHA: Yeah. I didn't need my son watching my father beat me. I can't go to the supermarket with my son. I can't go to the hospital if my son is sick. I can't do anything for my son.

CO: Was it because you got divorced that this created this problem that you can't...

MAHA: Yeah. My family don't support me and the government not support a woman get divorced. And we can't live a normal life with my son.

WAFA: When she gets a divorce, they think it's her fault. It's like shame in my family.

CO: And you didn't want your son to see the beatings you were getting. You didn't want him to see a weak mother.

MAHA: Yeah. I want to be strong mom because in the future I know my son understand why you left the country. Right now I tell all the world about our story because I'm not afraid anymore.

CO: But you are afraid. Even though you're now in Georgia, you're in a different country where you should be gaining refuge, you're not safe there. They can get to Georgia easily without a visa from Saudi Arabia. So what are you going to do?

WAFA: We can't go out. We can't live a normal life. Everybody knows about us right now.

CO: Where do you want to go?

WAFA: Any safe country: Europe, Canada -- to start our new life.

[/sc]

CH: That was Wafa and Maha al-Subaie, speaking to Carol in 2019. Since then, they've moved to an undisclosed country as refugee claimants. For more on our coverage on women's rights in Saudi Arabia, visit our Twitter page. That's: @cbcasithappens.

[Music: Ambient]

Ideas promo

CH: Tonight on "Ideas", "The Enright Files": conversations about rethinking the way cities work — and who they serve. Among the many things the pandemic has revealed about the flaws and failures of our way of life are the shortcomings of 20th Century urban design. From the lack of green spaces to the overcrowding in public transit, and in low-income areas. Robin Mazumder is a Vanier Scholar and doctoral candidate in cognitive neuroscience at the University of Waterloo, where he is studying the psychological impacts of urban design. Here he is, telling Michael Enright about the psychological impact of densely packed high-rises.

[sc]

ROBIN MAZUMDER: Yeah. So that's the basis of my research where I examine how people feel when they're surrounded by these tall buildings. You know, that's why I advocate for park space and what I would even call open space. You know, I'm looking at the potential for what our cities could be like in a hundred years. And, arguably, if we continue to densify the way that we are in our cities with super high rise skyscrapers, it could look like a sci-fi movie where you can't see the sky. So, yeah, I think, you know, we need to continue to push in and preserve these parks in our cities. And also, at the same time, a lot of our cities are covered with surface parking lots, which I just don't think is necessary. And we can look to repurpose these other spaces that are traditionally used to store immobile cars to, you know, give people an opportunity to sit and connect in a beautiful space.

ME: Going back to the skyscrapers and so on, I get the sense that it actually changes light patterns, weather patterns. The winds seem to change.

RM: Yeah, there are these little microclimates, you know, and you almost get bowled over by the wind. They're just generally not pleasant place to be. And then the light is definitely important, especially in Canadian winter cities. Interestingly, there is a report that the city of Edmonton released as part of their winter city initiative where they have suggestions around how city winter cities should be built. And one of the key elements that they talk about is how tall buildings can block light and how that can affect the microclimates that exist in the city. You know, people need to feel the sun on their skin, [laughing] you know, and if you have to walk six blocks to get out into some sunshine, that's kind of concerning.

[/sc]

CH: Robin Mazumder's conversation with Michael Enright, on "The Enright Files", tonight on "Ideas", coming up after As It Happens.

[Music: Instrumental]

CO: Wow. And you wouldn't guess this from the very passive plastic ones that we have here. [laughing]

PR: No, a tiny bit difference in their behaviour.

CO: I think so. And how pink do pink flamingos get? I guess t's not all the same?

PR: That's a really good question. So there are six species of flamingo, and they all show different shades of pink. So whilst they all collect the pink pigments from their diet, the different species of flamingo will metabolize those pigments into different forms of color inside their body. So the flamingos that I studied for this paper, which is the lesser flamingo. So it's the smallest species. It gets a very deep, I suppose, carmine-type pink, a very deep, dark pink colour, particularly on its face and its neck. And in the breeding season, which is when the birds flush the brightest pink, they get these really vivid, bright orange eyes, which are also stained the same colour as their feathers from the pigments they eat. And they get these long drooping, almost highlighter pen-coloured red and pink feathers over their backs. So it's a real marked colour change in and out of the breeding season. And that's what we were able to track by describing just how pink the birds were at different times of the year.

CO: Wow, that's pink!

PR Yeah, very much so. Yes.

CO: Okay, what relationship did you discover between aggressiveness and pinkness?

PR: Well, we had four different colour scores that the birds could move through during the course of the study. And what we found by the birds that were pretty much pink all over were much more aggressive during feeding than their paler counterparts. So it seems to be this change changing plumage colour, as the birds become pink in feather, they can throw their weight around a bit more and be more aggressive around feeding, potentially because they're in better body condition.

CO: All right. So are they aggressive because they're more pink, or do they get pink because they're more aggressive?

PR: I think that's a bit of column A and column B. If you are a more efficient forager, you can collect this carotenoid pigment more effectively. That means you've got energy to spare. So you can dominate your food resource. And therefore, you are increasing your efficiency of feeding. And therefore, you become pinker. So one of the things that is kind of a natural extension to this study is to look and see individual differences in the birds. And because we know that all animals have types of personality like people do, are there personality differences in these birds which are also affected by the colour change, i.e., if you're an angry flamingo when you're pinker, are you an angry flamingo more generally?

CO: All right. But all of your research is done with pink flamingos in captivity, right? So are you sure that this is actually the same behaviour as they would be in the wild?

PR: Yeah, again, that’s a really good question. So we infer a lot about the behaviour of flamingos from birds that we see in zoos because they are accessible and easy to study. The haunts of wild flamingos and the vast numbers they live in can actually make ecological studies like the ones that I have done quite daunting, although people are researching wild flamingos, which adds extra knowledge to our understanding of the birds in captivity. But what I would say is these carotenoid metabolic pathways that the bird used to turn pink, and then their courtship behaviours that we see, we don't interfere with any of that. So how are flamingo foragers and feats in the zoo and how are flamingo foragers and traits in the wild? And what they do with our food is exactly the same. And that's one of the reasons why I like studying them so much, because I think the flamingos that you would go and see at I don't know. The Toronto Zoo, for example, which is a zoo in Canada that has flamingos, those birds will behave in the same way as a wild flamingo would do because we have to provide them with exactly the same resources. Otherwise, they just won't turn pink.

CO: I know that you've done other studies on flamingos, including you've learned how they form very, very tight friendships. So what is it about these pink birds that intrigues you so much?

PR: [laughing] I think that some of my own kind of friends would say I've got a passion for stretched animals because the other animal I like really much is the giraffe. So tall things seem to interest me. It all kind of comes back to when I was little really, and I I lived in a part of the U.K. called Birmingham, a big city in Birmingham, and there was a park in Birmingham that incongruously had a single flamingo, which I look back now and think that bird must have been so lonely. But I was captured by this bird. It was amazing. And I went to university and I studied animal science and then I did a masters and I studied animals a bit more. And then I ended up teaching myself and lecturing to my students and eventually started on my PhD program. But I've always been fascinated by kind of weird and wonderful animals that we see. And I think it's all stemmed from there seeing this one bird that I wanted to know a lot more about.

CO: And they sound so much more interesting than the lawn ornament version.

PR: [laughing] Yes. Although I do have one of those that one of my friends bought me, so I can't say I'm totally divorced from the plastic flamingo.

CO: [both laughing] Paul, it's great to talk to you. Thank you so much.

PR: You're welcome. Thank you for your interest in the pink birds.

CO: Bye.

PR Cheers.

CH: Paul Rose is a behavioural ecologist at the University of Exeter. We reached him in Somerset, England. Just a quick correction. As it happens, technician Reynold Gonsalves informs me that a flock of flamingos is actually called a pat or a flamboyance.

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June 10, 2020 Episode Transcript

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