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The AIH Transcript for June 08, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CH: A force to be reckoned without. How the city of Camden, New Jersey, disbanded and rebuilt its own police department — and how the reforms re-formed the force's relationship with the community.

CH: And...carpe tedium. We hit the ground walking with two extremely pedestrian stories from our archives — one about the most boring lecturer in England; the other about a video game that's inaction-packed.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: LA Police budget, Camden Police changes, treasure hunt

LA police budget

Guest: Connie Rice

CH: In the wake of the killing of George Floyd, some U.S. cities are offering police reforms and funding cuts. And some cities are going much further. In Minneapolis, a majority of City Council members have thrown their support behind a plan to completely disband the city's police department. And meanwhile, in Los Angeles, the city has promised a significant budget cut to the LAPD. And some are hoping that's the start of something much bigger. Connie Rice is a civil rights lawyer who's been fighting for reforms in the LAPD for years. We reached her in Los Angeles.

CO: Ms. Rice, is there a change in the air in U.S. cities? Do you think that they're getting serious about looking at their police forces?

CONNIE RICE: I think you're seeing seismic change in the political view of racial injustice, systemic racial injustice. And I don't think we've seen anything like it since the civil rights revolution in the ‘60s in the United States. So, yes, there's political change in the air. These sustained protests in every major city and even small cities with majority white participants hasn't been seen since the ‘60s.

CO: And you're hearing from these city councils in a number of places, including very significantly, Minneapolis says that they are on track to perhaps even disband their police department to remake it completely. What do you make of, I guess, what we need to look at is what's happening in your city, in Los Angeles with LA’s Mayor Eric Garcetti saying he'll cut as much as 150-million dollars from the police department.

CR: I think that the efforts to cut those amounts of money from police departments are gestures in the right direction. But I wouldn't talk about it as defunding police. I would talk about it as transformative investment in delivering public safety to areas that have never had it. But there are two sides to this solution to not having this kind of unrest, not having this kind of anger, not having this kind of racial conflict in the United States. Every single major autopsy on United States riots over the last century said you have to do two things. You have to fix your police so they stop being predators and start being protectors in poor communities, especially in poor black communities. Second thing you have to do, and the bigger thing you have to do, is end what the McCone Commission in 1965 said and the spiral of despair, meaning end the endemic poverty that is the kindling for the sparks of police abuse. We asked that question after the 1992 uprisings, after the Rodney King verdicts in Los Angeles. And the price tag for just getting the basic infrastructure of banks, grocery stores, credit unions, just the basic infrastructure for a functioning economy in the South Los Angeles neighborhoods was six billion with a B. That was 30 years ago. You want to know how much L.A. raised? They outsourced it to corporate America with Rebuild L.A. and they raised 300 million. So we've never been serious about providing the upward mobility infrastructure for destitute and desperate communities that have nothing. And now they're in a COVID pandemic that's going to destroy what little they have. Put police abuse on top of that. That's what you're seeing.

CO: And after Rodney King, it seems that the police forces in L.A., the tendency was to increase them. And the theory being that the more police, they'd have more time to actually have civic engagement and not just be there fighting crime, as they said, that was the argument. So what do you make the fact that the L.A. Police Department is now almost 10,000 members?

CR: Well, if you look at policing studies, L.A. still doesn't have enough officers per population. Officer-to-population ratio is upside down in L.A. But it's never going to be, though, at the level that traditional law enforcement training says it needs to be. And we have to reimagine how we provide safety. Los Angeles Police Department has some incredibly intelligent, well-meaning leaders. Beck, Bratton, even Chief Moore. But they are presiding over a mission that is toxic. They are presiding over a police culture of impunity that is toxic. So you can have really good leadership and that has very good intent. You can have great officers who really do believe that they're protecting people. But if you look at what they do and how they do it, they're not providing safety in poor communities. They're providing shock and awe, suppression, containment, enforcement. That is not safety. And it ends up producing... They’re the machinery of mass incarceration. The new Jim Crow. And they don't understand that what they're doing isn't making poor African-Americans, poor Latinos and, in rural America, poor white people feel safe. They feel hunted. They feel persecuted. They feel like they can't win. And they're right. So we have to change the mission of policing from suppression, containment, enforcement in poor areas to wrap around safety. That means the police are going to join teams of other people like mental health, medical doctors, get educators in there, the social workers. You know, police need to be part of a team that delivers healing safety, not shock and awe gladiator enforcement.

CO: But what you're hearing in recent days, the police chief, Michael Moore, you just mentioned him, who said that the people who are protesting, they have as much responsibility for the death of George Floyd as the officers. He's since said he misspoke. But we've also heard from the union of that police department, who said that this is just a Schrade, this decision on the part of the mayor to look at the funding. It doesn't look like there's going to be much cooperation from the police, does it?

CR: It's not clear quite yet what the reaction is. Are they going to go back into their bunkers? I don't know. I think the way I would have gone about it. Of course, that statement was bad. The chief said it was bad. So I'm not focused… There's too much focus on misstatements by different politicians and police. I'm interested in the actions. And I think that the action to defund could have been productively done if you'd looked at all of the other departments, because 200-million might get you a community centre with some programs. But if the price tag is six-billion, what are we really talking about? The money is in Washington. Six-billion is three Boeing contracts with the Defense Department in the United States. Ten-billion, which is really what the real dollar amount would be today. And we're not even talking about another 15-billion for East L.A., which are the poorest Latino areas in L.A. So for 20-billion dollars, you can end the poverty and construct upward mobility infrastructure for these communities, which is what all of the post riot reports have said you have to do.

At the same time, you're changing your police. Look, the police need to understand this is a new day. The consent of the governed for predatory policing and mass incarceration, racial injustice is hereby revoked. They need to understand they either change how they police or we will dismantle police departments as they exist today and create wrap-around safety strategies and institutions. And they've got a choice now. They can either do it on their terms or it will be done to them by people who don't understand as much about what they know.

CO: We will leave it there. Ms. Rice. I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

CR: My pleasure.

CH: We reached civil rights lawyer Connie Rice in Los Angeles.

[Music: Indie rock]

Camden Police changes

Guest: Bruce Main

CH: The phrase "defund the police" is one of the rallying cries of the ongoing protests around the world. And for anyone who's baffled by what, exactly, that would look like, Camden, New Jersey has a suggestion: look here. Seven years ago, the city dismantled its police force, and started over. And Bruce Main witnessed the whole process. He's a Canadian who has lived in Camden for the past thirty-two years. He is also the founder and president of a community development group called Urban Promise. We reached Bruce Main in Camden.

CO: Bruce, what led Camden, New Jersey, to reform its police force seven years ago?

BRUCE MAIN: Well, I think it was a combination of things. You know, one is Camden is a very poor city. And so, you know, it receives a lot of sort of funding from the state. And so there was a combination of things that I think led to the, you know, the disbanding of the Camden Police force in 2013. And then it was sort of reimagined in this new Camden County police force. And that's been in existence for the last six or seven years.

CO: So just before we get to what it became, the reimagining of the Camden police force, how necessary was the reform? What was the state of policing in Camden?

BM: Well, a couple things. You know, one is because of the sort of lack of funding, you know, we were seeing a decrease in police officers on the streets. So I think at its lowest, I think there's about 175 full-time police officers in Camden, whereas today there's over 400. So that was certainly part of it was just, you know, that the resources weren't there. When the existing police force was dismantled, that freed up a lot of resources. You know, basically, the entire police force was laid off. And then they could reapply to come back to work. And then a lot of young police officers were hired at, you know, lower salaries. So that allowed more police to be on the streets. And, you know, resources to be spread further.

CO: Of course, though, the fear always is to do something like this, to be radical and to change the way police do their work means that there will be more victims of crime. So what happened to the crime rates in Camden and after you did this?

BM: Yeah. I mean, there was a lot of controversy around it because I believe 2012 we had the highest murder rate that we'd ever had and we were, you know, voted like the most dangerous city in America. So we had 65 murders that year. And for a small city, you know, that that was astronomical. And so, you know, there was a lot of fear that with this transition, that crime would go up significantly and spike. And what we've seen over the last few years, again, is the decrease in crime. And part of that, I think, can be attributed to more officers on the streets. But I think part of it, too, I think a large degree was the chief of police that came in about seven or eight years ago, Scott Thompson, who had really a community-based policing approach philosophy, which, you know, got police out of the cars, out walking the streets, interacting with residents, you know, showing up to local businesses, talking to owners, playing basketball in the parks with kids and just really kind of breaking down that us-versus-them mentality. And I think, you know, I think we're seeing some really good results from that.

CO: And he, in fact, was helping to lead the Black Lives Matter protests.

BM: Yeah, so this is the new chief of police who just came in about six months ago. But the last two weekends, we've had peaceful protests here in the city. So to see that happening in what was, you know, one of the most violent cities in the country, I think is a real, you know, it's a great story. And it didn't happen overnight. It happened because of, you know, six or seven years of, I think, really, you know, intentional relationship building between law enforcement and local residents.

CO: So you’ve found in Camden that murders are down by two-thirds since the year before these reforms, overall violent crime is down by nearly half.

BM: Yeah.

CO: So what signal has this sent to other police forces who are saying that they can't reform in this way? They can't change because they're into law enforcement?

BM: Yeah. Well, again, I'm not an expert. This is kind of a little bit outside of my area. But, I mean, again, I think you've got to look at successful models. And again, that the city of Camden was sort of almost you know, it almost had to move in this direction. And again, it was met with, I mean, you can imagine with resistance initially and, you know, some people perceived it as sort of union busting. And, you know, there was a lot of concerns, you know, police officers that had given their careers to the police force, you know, so but again, if you look, as you just stated, at what's happened in the last six or seven years. You know, you see some real significant shifts in numbers of all kinds of crime. And, you know, you'd hope that that would send kind of a different message across the country and around the world that, you know, again, it's to serve and to protect. And, you know, the thing about a city like Camden is, you know, the majority of residents, and I work with especially with youth, you know, they're great kids. When the philosophy is sort of us against them, you know, it creates, you know, these barriers between youth and local resident and this institution that's there to really serve the people.

CO: A number of people in policing, in training, in the unions in the United States are arguing the opposite. They say that they need to have almost warrior training. It's like there's a militarization view of the police. And that's been the trend in the United States and in Canada. What would happen if Camden returned to the kind of police force that it had in the past?

BM: Well, it's hard to say. But, you know, again, I think you've got to look at what has happened and, you know, sort of moving from this fear-based approach to policing and this fear-based approach to how you look and perceive people living, you know, in these communities and to, you know, again, really be intentional about humanizing, you know, both police and residents and, you know, anything that's fear-driven. You know, it may have some short-term results, but it doesn't make for enduring, healthy, flourishing communities. And that's what we need. That's what I want for my kids at Urban Promise. I want them to, you know, I want them to live in a safe city. But, you know, I also want them to live in a city where, you know, they can look the police as role models and examples and even an inspiration of what they may be one day. But when you, you know, sort of militarize the whole system, I think it creates a really dangerous precedent.

CO: Bruce, we'll leave it there. We’re going to be following this story, and I appreciate speaking with you today. Thank you.

BM: All right. Thanks, Carol. Take care.

CO: Bye

BM: Bye-Bye.

CH: Bruce Main runs a community development organisation in Camden, New Jersey, a city that has reformed its police force. Tomorrow on As It Happens, we'll hear from Jacob Rodriguez, who grew up in Camden — and describes his experiences as a black man, pre- and post-reform.

[Music: Hip-hop beat]

Treasure Hunt

Guest: Sacha Dent

CH: An elusive treasure chest hidden in the Rocky Mountains has reportedly been found. But the saga surrounding the man who buried it is far from over. Forrest Fenn, a retired antiques dealer, claimed to have buried a treasure chest worth millions, about ten years ago. He wrote a poem to help people find it. Back in 2013, Carol tried to pry some clues

[sc]

CO: You have left clues in the form of a poem?

FORREST FENN: Yes, ma'am.

CO: The clues are buried there?

FF: The clues are in the poem my book has. Hence, will help the person with the clues. The book won't take you to the treasure chest, but it'll help you with the clues that are in the poem.

CO: Aha. So maybe a little key to the clues in the poem then?

FF: There are nine clues in the poem. And if you can figure out those clues, they will take you to the treasure chest, and you can have it if you can find it.

CO: Well some of them seem that... Some of the clues maybe are things that people locally would know. You say begin it where warm waters halt, and take it in the canyon down not far, but too far to walk, put in below the home of Brown. That seems like a couple of clues to me.

FF: That sounds like three or four of them to me. [both laughing]

CO: But I guess you have to know where the home of Brown is?

FF: That's right.

CO: Okay, so —

FF: And you have to know where warm waters halt.

CO: Aha! But it says, there'll be no paddle up your creek, just heavy loads and water high. Umm, couple more clues there.

FF: Sounds like it to me.

CO [chuckling] I'm not leading, I'm not tempting you to disclose anything here then?

FF: No, I'm not going to give any more clues.

[/sc]

CH: That was Forrest Fenn speaking with Carol in 2013. Since then, an estimated 350-thousand people have gone searching for that treasure chest. And at least five people died trying to find it. Mr. Fenn faces lawsuits from multiple treasure hunters, claiming they were duped, or that the treasure doesn't exist at all. But over the weekend, Forrest Fenn gave his fans the news they'd been bracing for. Sacha Dent is one of those fans and treasure hunters. We reached her in Junction City, Kansas.

CO: Sasha. Has it sunk in for you yet that the search for this buried treasure is, I guess, finally over?

SACHA DENT: I think so. There's a lot of emotions that go with something like this ending. But I accept that it's over and that I was not the victor.

CO: But how do you know? Well, you know you weren’t the victor. But how can you verify that it was actually found? Forrest Fenn isn't giving any information about who it was. He said there were no photographs. There's no proof being offered. He said it was just a man from back east. So are you going to take him at his word?

SD: Well, yes. I called Forrest Fenn and verified myself. And he said it was found. And I believe him. But he does say he will be releasing photos soon. So we, the public, should be getting some proof that at least someone has the treasure chest.

CO: What got you into searching for this treasure chest?

SD: I've always been interested in puzzles, and this was one of the biggest, most interesting puzzles I had ever come across. And from the moment I heard about it, I was hooked. There was no question that I would participate and try to find it.

CO: Give us a sense of what you went to, what lengths you went to to try and find this treasure?

SD: Well, I wouldn't say that I did anything crazy, but it made me step outside my comfort zone, which was exciting. And, you know, of course, the thought of coming upon that treasure chest someday, really, I mean, that was enticing. But I had to learn a lot about nature and the environment. I had to learn about animals, telling time based on the sun, the stars, the flora and fauna of the area. I searched, and I had a lot of fun.

CO: So you didn't find the treasure, but what else did you find in your travels?

SD: Well, I found a husband [both laughing], a florist introduced me to my husband almost two years ago. That was really nice to come together with someone who shared the same interests that I did and had the same passion for it that I did. Of course, we had our disagreements about where we thought it was and what the clues meant, but it was still fun to do that with someone, you know. Not only was this an adventure, but I got to share that adventure with someone.

CO: And you went on 300 different trips, ten-thousand hours you spent researching the clues. Is that right?

SD: Those are my estimations, yes. In the early days, I would investigate every moment that... My son was born right when I first heard about the treasure hunt. So I spent every minute he was asleep researching. And I think I have searched more times than any other person who has searched for Forrest Fenn’s treasure.

CO: And we're talking about tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of people who have been searching for this treasure. There's been consequences, though. I mean, five people have died in their pursuit of this treasure.

SD: Actually, that number is a little bit higher. It's either six or seven now. And yes, there was one man who accidentally just took a misstep and ended up sliding down a cliff and dying. That was just one sort of freak accident. The remaining ones made some very big mistakes. And unfortunately, in those cases, they put themselves in those situations.

CO: But there are those who think that Forest Fenn should carry at least some responsibility for what happened to those people, including we interviewed a woman a few years ago whose husband’s remains were eventually found. But when he was missing, she wanted Forest Fenn to give her a sense of where the treasure was because she figured she could find her husband that way.

SD: Well, first of all, that was his ex-wife, not his current wife. And no, I don't believe Forest carries any weight for those or responsibility, I should say, for those individuals. They made poor choices. That particular individual tried to go whitewater rafting down the Rio Grande River in a child's inflatable lake raft. He was completely ill-prepared. He did not plan well. He didn't tell anyone where he was going. I can tell you though because I've known forest for several years now. Forest does not take those situations lightly. And he has given every warning possible to the public at large to try to keep people safe. And the first rule of searching for his treasure is not to go anywhere that a 79 or 80-year-old man couldn't go because that's how old he was when he hid the chest.

CO: But did he have any regrets for the deaths?

SD: Of course he did. You can see the weight of those deaths on his face when he discusses it. And that was never the intention. The intention was to give people in a modern era an adventure that almost doesn't exist anymore.

CO: But, you know, some of the treasure hunters became convinced that there was no treasure chest to begin with. And they've even filed lawsuits against him.

SD: Unfortunately, there's no second place. And some people are just unable to accept that they did not have the right ideas, either they weren't smart enough or clever enough to figure out his poem, or they're just opportunists looking for a way that they can circumvent the system for their own benefit. It's even more unfortunate that Forrest Fenn tried to do something so incredibly benevolent. I mean, who puts a million dollars worth of gold in a box and hides it and says, you can have it if you can find it?

CO: How close do you think you got to finding it?

SD: I can't speculate on that because it's a double-edged sword. If I think I was a million miles off, I would be hard on myself for thinking I was too stupid to figure it out. If I was close, it would be heartbreaking to know that I was just mere inches away from an incredible victory. I can't speculate on either, and I honestly hope I never find out because I think, either way, it would just be heartbreaking.

CO: But if he reveals pictures and he gives them more information, might Forest Fenn also tell you where it is?

SD: No. No. Forest has always said that he would do what the finder wants to do. And if the finder doesn't want to reveal the ultimate location, then he won't.

CO: What about you? What do you do next? I mean, now that you have this bug for looking for treasure, for buried treasure, what do you do for an encore?

SD: Well, there's actually tons of armchair treasure hunts out there. There's one called the Golden Owl of France, which is worth far more than Forrest Fenn’s treasure. There's lots of ones stateside, one that's been going on since 1981. And so I've already ventured into those things because I knew this day would come, this adventure would end and it would be time to find a new one. And while there's a great deal of sadness that I won't be looking for Forest Fenn’s treasure anymore. There's also a sense of relief that I'll have the time and opportunity to focus on some of these other adventures.

CO: Well, happy hunting.

SD: Thank you.

CO: Thank you, Sacha. Bye.

SD: Bye-bye.

CH: Sacha Dent went on more than 300 trips to the Rocky Mountains to find an elusive treasure chest. Forrest Fenn, the man who buried it, has announced that the chest had been found. We reached Ms. Dent in Junction City, Kansas.

[Music: Snappy electronic beat]

Part two: Chantel Moore death, boring stories

Chantel moore death

Guest: Moses Martin

CH: When police arrived at Chantel Moore's door in Edmundston, New Brunswick, last Thursday, they'd been called to do a "wellness check". Now, the 26-year-old woman is dead — shot and killed by a police officer. Police say Ms. Moore had a knife and attacked the officer, who, quote, "had no choice but to defend himself." Quebec's independent police watchdog has been asked to investigate — since New Brunswick has no police watchdog of its own. And First Nations chiefs are calling for an independent probe of the provincial justice system. Ms. Moore's family is also looking for answers. Today, several members of her family arrived in New Brunswick from her home province of British Columbia. Moses Martin is Chantel Moore's great uncle. He's also the chief councillor of the Tla-o-qui-aht First Nation. We reached Chief Martin in Tofino, BC.

CO: Chief Martin, first of all, I'm sorry for your loss.

MOSES MARTIN: Yes, thank you very much for your acknowledgment. And it's hard to understand.

CO: Well, what is your understanding, as far as you know, at this point, of, first of all, why were police called to Chantel’s apartment last Thursday?

MM: Apparently, it was a wellness call that was made. And it's hard for us to really understand what really happened and what the nature of the call was. And then also, when you get no information, well, then we're left to make assumptions on what happened. We're told that she was shot multiple times. So, you know, right away, these questions of what was the intent to kill? Why didn't he try to disarm her? Why didn't he run? Did he not have a Taser? All those kinds of questions are cropping up.

CO: Okay, let's just go back to what few details we have at this point. So police went to her home to check on her well-being. She's shot multiple times and killed. Do you know anything else about what happened? They say she had a knife when they arrived. What do you know about that?

MM: Yes, that’s the same message that we got. And that's the piece that I'm having trouble trying to understand is because Chantel, as we knew her, was a very beautiful young lady, inside and out. So it's hard to understand how she's being described by police, coming at a trained police officer with a knife. It’s difficult.

CO: But again, there's an investigation going on. And the police aren't giving any answers to these questions, are they?

MM: No, no, we're not getting any answers at all, so.

CO: Do you have a belief or concern that her First Nations identity, her First Nations ethnicity, had a role to play in what happened to her?

MM: Well, I don't know that either, ma'am. Sorry, I couldn't say one way or the other.

CO: Other members of your family are casting doubts on the police version of what happened to Chantel. So do you share that?

MM: Personally, I can't say that. I'm involved in politics, and have spent my lifetime building relationships. That's what I do. And yeah, it's difficult. I know that racism exists. And I know that all too well because, you know, I have seen it. I've heard it. And for me, it is time that we stop talking about it and begin to start planning on how we deal with this, because, you know, we're all people that call this place home. And yeah.

CO: Can I just go back to what happened on Thursday, just for a moment. And I know your own son is a 20-year veteran of the RCMP. From what you know of policing, does it seem that there was something that might have happened between the arrival and the shooting of Chantel? Was there an opportunity, in your view, to de-escalate what was going on, whatever it was?

MM: I would think that, yes, there could have been or should have been some de-escalation of even if she had a knife. She's a tiny little lady. And a trained police officer, yeah, it just doesn't make any sense. To me, it’s a senseless killing.

CO: So Quebec’s independent police watchdog has been asked to investigate the incident independently. What are the most important questions that you want answered?

MM: Oh boy, there’s all kinds of whys. Why did this happen? And why was she shot? You know, it’s hard to put into words, ‘cause, you know, all of our emotions are all kind of over the top. So, yeah. You mention my son that's a member of the force. And, yeah, he's quite well-liked in the community that he serves. And I brought him up to understand the laws and respect in our community, in our family.

CO: And what is he saying about the death of Chantel?

MM: Kind of speechless about it, and yeah. I called him when I got the news, and he was shocked, too, as well.

CO: Chantel had her own daughter, didn't she? A little five-year-old, and she'd gone to New Brunswick to be with her mom and her daughter. What stories would you tell her daughter about her mother? What do you want her daughter to know about her mom?

MM: Her mother was beautiful, kind,a very well-spoken person. And then, yes, she wanted to be near her daughter and know all those things that come with being a parent. In our family, especially in my own family, we talk about lessons that we've been taught as individuals by our parents and that I can't demand respect, I have to earn it. Very simple, but a lifetime of learning.

CO: Chief Martin, I hope you get the answers to your questions, and I appreciate you speaking with us. Thank you.

MM: Thank you very much. And thank you.

CH: Chief Moses Martin is Chantel Moore's great uncle. We reached him in Tofino, BC. And we have more on this story on our website, at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

Legault racism statement

[sc]

ANTONI NERESTANT: A lot of people who attended say they took it as a big slap in the face, that their premier denies the existence of systemic racism, specifically a term systemic racism in Quebec. They took it out as a big offense, a slap in the face, and they say that you don't get it, that it's not a system of racism, of intentional racism, that it's a collection of biases. [Speaking: French] That lead to a lot of disadvantages for a lot of communities. What do you say to the people who say that you don't get it, that you're not making an effort to get it, and that your plan to fight racism in Quebec is useless unless you make an effort to see it from their perspective?

FRANCOIS LEGULT: I don't understand why people are trying to stick on one word? I think what is important is to see and to all agree that there is some racism in Quebec, and we don't want that anymore. So that's the key. And we have to be careful about letting understand that maybe a majority of Quebeckers have a problem. That's why I said we had a problem with the place of Francophones in Quebec. We had a problem with the place of women in Quebec. We've improved the situation. We have to do the same for racism, and not fight against one word, but fight against racism.

MODERATOR: Okay, next question.

AN: They're saying that by not using the word systemic, that you're downplaying the problem. You're making it less than what it is by saying... Because you keep insisting the majority of Quebeckers are not racists, which is not what people that were protesting are saying. They're saying that racism and discrimination is common.

FL: What I say to them is that is there a system of racism in Quebec? Some experts, that's their definition of systemic. I understand that some other have another definition, but why should we fight for a word instead of fighting against racism?

[/sc]

CH: Quebec Premier Francois Legault, responding to questions from the CBC's Antoni Nerestant in Montreal.

[Music: Indie rock]

Boring stories

CH: In her essay, "Eulogy on the Flapper", Zelda Fitzgerald wrote, "...she refused to be bored chiefly because she wasn't boring." Now, those are inspiring words. But they overlook one simple truth: that sometimes, being incredibly boring, on purpose, can be fascinating. Tonight's stories from the archives revolve around absolutely mind-boggling levels of monotony. In the first case, our guest is so phenomenally dull that he was voted dullest in a field where dullness is extremely common. Dr. David Coward was the most boring lecturer in England. And in 1977, Barbara Frum and Alan Maitland found out just how boring the most boring lecturer can be.

[sc]

BARBRA FRUM: Dr. Coward, how did you win the top prize?

DAVID COWARD: There were eight contestants, and we all spoke for a couple of minutes each. And we were judged by a panel of experts. ANd they were students. One of them was dressed up as a gorilla. And really, the award went to the funniest speaker, as I say myself, because, I mean, I think it's understood as it was a bit of a joke that the real bores didn't come forward.

BF: [soft chuckle] They never do.

DC: I hope not.

BF: How difficult was the competition?

DC: Well, the competition was tough. I won the coveted trophy by a mere half mark. So that gives you some idea of how tough the competition was. And, in fact, my nearest rival spoke in Latin for five minutes. And he was wearing pajamas as well.

BF: What was your subject?

DC: Well, I talked about public lavatories. This is the sort of thing I said, last time we had this course of lectures on public hygiene policy. I suggested three things you can do with sewage. This week, I shall be going into public lavatories. An authority on the subject has said that lavatories are the heartbeat of the city, its centre of gravity. Of course, [snoring is heard in the background] authorities have picked up on a lot of things from the toilets that they have visited, and they very generously have passed these on to their students, several doctoral theses have been written on the subject. But I would like today to avoid being bogged down by generalities. I would give my attention to the special problem of the manned urinal, which, like the manned hole in the road, is currently hard-pressed by local maneuverable authorities, whose movement is sparked [a particularly loud and sputtering yawn] by inflation, okay?

BF: You've lost Al. He's dead away.

DC: Oh, he was knocked out of the game?

AL MAITLAND: Grand speech, Dr. Simply grand!

DC: You enjoyed that, did you?

AM: Yes, lovely. What was it about?

DC: [BF chuckles] What?

BF: To tell the truth, it sounded a bit like a BBC talk.

DC: It's rather dull.

BF: Well, we don’t do talks here anymore.

DC: I think it just took a few minutes then. But, in fact, it took about five minutes to do because everybody was throwing paper darts and making rude noises with machines. And it was quite hectic, in fact.

BF: Why can't you humiliate a bore in stopping? Have you ever figured that out?

DC: Well, I do. I think there's a secret is that bores don't actually know when they're boring people. Do you think that's true? I think there are various secrets, aren’t there? There's the amount of detail that you go into and the amount of repetition as well. I think you can recognize a boring speaker when you hear him, don't you think?

BF: Was your wife there?

DC: No, she wasn't, actually. My wife teaches. But, I mean, she did give a reaction. Well, my wife said, what was it like to be married to the most boring lecturer? She said that it's dead boring.

BF: [chuckling] That figures.

DC: Okay?

BF: What happened to you in class after you won?

DC: Well, as you know, the English tend to be rather reserved. And when I met my classes today, no one mentioned anything about it whatsoever. I think that's a very proper thing to do.

BF: [soft chuckles] I guess they didn't want to get more of it? [brighter chuckle] Congratulations, Professor Coward.

DC: Well, thanks very much.

BF: Bye-bye.

DC: Okay. Bye-bye.

[/sc]

CH: From March of 1977, Dr. David Coward — the most boring lecturer in England. Now, we play video games to escape from that kind of tedium. We shoot bazookas at zombies because our regular lives involve standing in lines. Which is why Rajeev Basu's video game was so confusing. In it, you kind of are a zombie. And you're just standing in a line. In 2013, Carol asked Mr. Basu to explain the finer points of his game, "Waiting in Line 3-D".

[sc]

CO: Rajeev, this seems like a fascinating game, “Waiting In Line 3-D.

RAJEEV BASU: Yeah, it's a new game that's just launched on Monday.

CO: Um-hmm. Well, you know what? I think we're going to play a round. And I’m gonna get it up on my laptop here, and then maybe you can tell us what the scene and how we're gonna do this? So here we go.

[Sound: In-game music]

CO: First, what I’m going to do is click to start, right? This is really basic here.

[Sound: A bright chime note and the music continues]

CO: All right. There we go. What am I looking at here?

RB: All right. So you should see that you're in a line of about 20 people. You can use the arrow keys to move left and right.

CO: Okay.

RB: And you’ll see that the awake indicator is going down.

CO: Yeah?

RB: And all you have to do is punch yourself in the face to stay awake.

CO: Wait a second, I'm pushing the arrow keys to move.

RB: Yeah?

CO: And I'm not really moving much. It’s maybe a fraction in any direction.

RB: Yeah, I mean, that's as much as you get with the game. And you hit the Space key to hit yourself in the face to help stay awake.

[Sound: The music has continued throughout]

RB: [CO chuckles] And the trick is you need to punch yourself, but not too much. Otherwise, you die.

CO: [chuckling] Okay, I keep punching myself to stay awake.

RB: Yeah.

[Sound: a scream and the music stops]

RB: So you stay awake.

CO: Right. I just didn't stay awake, right? I died, didn’t I? Did I die there?

RB: Did you get a game over?

CO: I got a game over.

RB: Yeah.

CO: And I scored zero points.

RB: Yeah. You need a real iron will, I think, to get you even a single point in this game.

CO: Rajeev, is there any way to gain any points in this game?

RB: There is. But you have to stick it out for quite some time.

CO: [chuckling] But, I mean, what I saw is I was in line.

RB: Right.

CO: Pushing the keys didn't take me anywhere, except to look behind me and see more people behind me in line.

RB: Yeah.

CO: And then I could punch myself in the face to stay awake. That's it.

RB: Yeah. Yeah. And it's really just a game of balance between punching yourself to stay awake and noticing the health indicator, just getting the right balance, so you can keep your place in line, really.

CO: But what am I in line for?

RB: I mean, that's open to interpretation.

CO: Right, I don't even know the purpose of being in line?

RB: Right. Right.

CO: And I never move up in line?

RB: Again, that's something that I think once you stick it out. Most people last a couple of minutes. I've seen, well, people have been tweeting their scores. One person’s lasted 12 minutes, one’s lasted 27 minutes. [CO chuckles] So it kind of depends how long you stick it out for.

CO: [said through laughter] Why would you stay with this game for 27 minutes?

RB: I don't know. I mean, I guess... The funny thing is I think the aim of this game was to create something that was so unfun and uninteresting that it might come back full-circle, and you might want to stick with it and see what happens.

CO: You have actually accomplished what you set out to do. This is that dull. [RB laughs] This is an incredibly boring game.

RB: [laughs] That's what a lot of sites and blogs have been saying as well.

CO: Okay, well, I'm going to have another try here at playing “Waiting In Line 3-D”.

[Sound: The bright chime and the music starts again]

RB: Okay, so back in line. Just need to watch the indicator going down. Punch yourself just enough to keep you awake.

[Sound: A couple of smacking sounds… Followed by another scream]

RB: [CO chuckles] So, sounds like you punched a few too many times.

CO: Yeah, I think I did. Yeah, I'm dead.

RB: Yes.

CO: I've died. I died twice. I lasted, what, ten seconds, 15 seconds on this game. Not so good, eh?

RB: [chuckle]I mean, yeah, it's been a real mix. A lot of people last kind of between two and three minutes.

CO: Now, because by your accent, I presume that you are British. Why didn't you call it “The Queuing Game”?

RB: It's funny because I've been in the U.S. now for three years. And I just thought waiting in line would be a more accessible international version of the game.

CO: And how has it done internationally, your game?

RB: Really good, actually. In the first 24 hours, it's been played 50-thousand times. [CO laughs] And it's been picked up by a ton of magazines like Wired. Yeah, just kind of seeing where else it gets picked up.

CO: In what league are you in as far as creating really, really boring online games?

RB: A lot of people have been comparing it to a game that was created by Sega in the ‘90s called “Desert Bus” — where you just drive a bus indefinitely. But it's kind of in that league of people wondering what's going on?

CO: Right. Yeah, and I can see this being compared to that.

RB: But with that one, I think you do get somewhere. And then when you do, you turn back and drive back. [CO laughing] And then you score one point as well when you get there. It’s pretty good!

CO: [laughing] Rajeev, congratulations on creating a really, really dull game.

RB: [laughing] Thanks a lot.

CO: Take care, bye-bye.

RB: Bye-bye.

[/sc]

CH: That was Carol talking to Rajeev Basu, creator of the video game "Waiting in Line 3-D", in November of 2013.

CO: Dr. Hussein, what's the first thing you think about when you see a gathering of thousands of protesters right now?

ABBY HUSSEIN: I think the initial kind of gut reaction is, oh, my God, so many people in one place! But immediately after that, my thought is, wow, this is amazing. And this is needed. And this is great.

CO: How do you balance these two issues of public health, which is that the protests are necessary, but the protection against COVID-19 is as well?

AH: You know, it's a hard question. As an infectious disease doctor, I've obviously seen patients with COVID. I've worked with them. I've taken care of them. I know how devastating the disease can be. And I understand the burden of the disease. But, you know, also, just as a Black woman in America, I see the burden of racism. And I think it's hard for us to predict what the impact of these protests will have on COVID cases. But, you know, the one thing we do know is that these murders are happening now, right? And like, police brutality is happening now. And this is a current and clear threat. So how do you tell someone who is fighting for their life that this possibility of getting a disease, this risk of exposure, is stronger or more important than their immediate threat to their life that is going on?

CO: And you're looking at both those as public health issues. Can you just elaborate a bit on how you see the treatment of People of Colour in the United States as a health issue?

AH: I think the treatment, the systems of oppression, that have been longstanding in our culture in America, and our history, have led to things such as decreased access to health care, unsafe working conditions, inability to access healthy foods. And all of these things factor into these social determinants of health that we have seen, you know, through studies and through research have a giant impact on people's overall health and well-being. And I think all those things feed into this. And all of this stems from racism and white supremacy. And therefore, it's just as lethal as any disease that you're going to get. And it kills more people all the time.

CO: You're seeing a situation where it is several times more likely for a Black person in the United States to be shot by police or killed by police than than the rest of the population. At the same time, you're also seeing it several times more likely that a Black person will get COVID-19. So is it actually choosing between one or the other that you need to protest, but at the same time, how do you protect yourself?

AH: Exactly. I mean, I think that's it, right? Like, the people out here that are protesting already know that they're disproportionately affected. But for them, they've just decided that this risk is worth it, because right now, you know, they can do nothing and still face a risk of death, right? So why not do all you can and make these statements known and make this process clear and have a movement and understand that fighting racial oppression is so much worth the risk of anything else that could happen because you're fighting for your life. Like, this isn’t a choice of, well, I just want to, you know, go outside and do this. This is a life-or-death matter.

CO: But how do they protect themselves? I mean, it is a real thing. I mean, you have two-million cases now in the U.S, 116-thousand deaths. And they're concentrated in the cities, and in these communities we're talking about. So maybe just outline how you and the others are saying that people, the protesters, can better protect themselves against the disease?

AH: Yeah, we have, you know, we strongly recommend everyone wear masks. And most of these protests that we're seeing, people are wearing mask coverings, whether bandanas or actual masks, and that's great. Staying a part is an awesome thought. And we would love that. But we know that it's hard when people are being corralled in one area. Making sure they're carrying hand sanitizer and they're washing their hands regularly. Trying to avoid sharing food or sharing signs with other people is helpful to kind of decrease that risk of cross-contamination. And, you know, the other part of it comes from law enforcement as well. You know, avoiding creating chaos in a crowd, because what that's gonna do is force people to run into each other, you know, make them come in closer proximity than they might have had they just been able to kind of stand and peacefully protesting and walking. And these protests are happening outside, which is also a recommendation, right? The movement and the air makes it harder for COVID to be transmitted. And so those are things that I think we can do to cause to at least mitigate some of these risks.

CO: But you're talking about avoiding sharing food and what not. But they're sharing bodily fluids, aren't they? Because they're helping each other overcome the problems of tear gas and smoke grenades. I mean, they're all weeping and helping each other. So how can you deal with that?

AH: And that's the huge thing. That's also part of our push, is to not do things like tear gas, things like pepper spray, things that are going to elicit people's coughing, responses, that are gonna make them sneeze, that are gonna make them send out these droplets, right? Like this is harm reduction. It's not just from the protesters side, but the side of law enforcement.

CO: This letter that others, 12-hundred have signed, an open letter advocating for an anti-racist public health response to demonstrations against systemic injustice occurring during the pandemic, what do you hope to accomplish with this letter?

AH: Our whole goal was that we were hearing this narrative of people saying these protests are dangerous and they're putting people at risk and this shouldn't be happening and they're unsafe. And we wanted to counter that. We wanted to change that story, right. We think that racism and oppression is a public health issue, as we've discussed. And so for us, it's essential that we show support and make that a priority. But we provide them with tips and ways to harm, reduce and to be safe while they're doing this.

CO: Just finally, these are overwhelmingly young people who are out on the streets. We know that the effect of this infection is often not as severe for them. But they do go home, don't they? They go home to older people, to parents, to families. How do they protect their own families?

AH: You know, we tell people, this is part of the reason that we want them to wear masks, be careful to make sure when they go home, they're showering, they're washing their hands. And everyone has to weigh this risk out for their own. There is no you need to do this, you don't need to do this. If you have family members who may be immunocompromised, who are unhealthy and you're worried about their risk, and that is something that you need to weigh, we recommend that anyone who feels sick after these protests is getting checked. You know, testing for all these people would be helpful. So that we know what the burden is. And if people are having an infection, then they shouldn't be outside on the streets.

CO: We will leave it there. Dr. Hussein, thank you.

AH: Thank you so much.

CO: Bye.

CH: Dr. Abby Hussein is an Infectious Disease Fellow at the University of Washington. She was in Seattle. And you can find more on this story on our webpage, at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Jazz]

TikTok tea

CH: If you want to start an argument in the U.K., ask someone how to make the perfect cup of tea. Even George Orwell took time out from writing about the rising tide of fascism to pen an essay entitled "A Nice Cup of Tea". In it, he lays out ten steps to the perfect cup, including the proper teacup material. He writes, "The teapot should be made of china or earthenware. Silver or Britanniaware teapots produce inferior tea, and enamel pots are worse; though curiously enough a pewter teapot (a rarity nowadays) is not so bad. So we can only imagine Mr. Orwell's horror at seeing a recent TikTok video, posted by an American living in the U.K. Michelle had already drawn ire for her unconventional tea-brewing method in a previous video. And now, she's doubling down. Here is how Michelle describes the proper way to make 'British' tea.

[/sc]

CH: What! That was American Tiktok user Michelle's recipe for "British tea". As you might expect, her recipe left a bitter taste in the mouths of pretty much everyone in the U.K. It's been called an "outrage", "treason", and even "an act of war". We want to hear from you. Is Michelle's tea recipe revolting — or just not your cup of… Et, cetra? Email us at: aih@cbc.ca. Or call Talkback and leave a message at: 416-205-5687.

[Music: Hip-hop beat]

Whistling Golden Gate Bridge

Guest: Mark Krueger

CH: You're just enjoying the sunshine and the gentle breeze one day when suddenly this sound chills your blood.

[sc]

[Sound: This sounds like the eerie opening notes of a sci-fi movie. Or that scene where someone plays the rims of crystal water cups]

[/sc]

CH: That's sound from a video recorded a few days ago in San Francisco. A lot of people there heard the strange noise. And many of them wondered whether aliens were invading. Or ghosts. Or alien ghosts. None of those possibilities has been definitely discounted. But Mark Krueger has an equally plausible explanation for that sound. We reached him in San Francisco.

CO: Mark, we just heard a bit of that strange sound that has been floating through your city. What did you think it was when you first heard it?

MARK KRUEGER: I thought maybe something was wrong with the emergency broadcast system, [chuckling] or maybe it was a cleaning truck at first, [CO cuckles] but it just kept going on and on and on for hours. And I knew that couldn't be. So, yeah, very, very strange sound.

CO: And so you started poking around. What did you discover about where it was coming from?

MK: Well, the first thing I found was on Twitter that someone in the Presidio said, can someone explain to me why this eerie sound has been going on for an hour in San Francisco? And he's an artist at Industrial Light and Magic in the Presidio, and took it upon himself to take a walk and try to walk toward the sound. And he just said he kept getting closer and closer to the Golden Gate Bridge but couldn't find the sound. [chuckling]

CO: So the Golden Gate Bridge seems to be where things started to focus. How is it that it's coming from the Golden Gate Bridge? What did you find out?

MK: Well, it seems there's been a construction project that I wasn't aware of on the sidewalks of the Golden Gate Bridge, that supposedly is to help with wind mitigation for high winds. And apparently there is a side effect. [chuckling]

CO: Wow! It's whistling wind?!

MK: Yeah, it's a very, very powerful whistling wind. I'm four miles from the Golden Gate Bridge. I wouldn't call it loud, but it was, you know, annoying. [laughing] And it wasn't something I could easily tune out with headphones or anything like that.

CO: How far away can you actually still pick up the sound?

MK: Well, I'm about four miles, and people reported hearing the sound in Oakland, which is, I think probably eight to ten miles or something like that. And all over San Francisco. So my guess is maybe a 20-square mile area or so.

CO: Okau. So is it any particular wind that makes it sound more intense? [chuckling]

MK: Yeah, it seems to be very particular about the direction and the intensity of the wind. So on Friday, when we were all, you know, going crazy on Twitter about it, it was audible for many hours, about three hours. But since then, it has only been intermittently audible, and at a lower level. Now, I do think that people that are on the bridge or near the bridge are hearing it much more often. And there've been a bunch of recordings posted on Twitter showing that. [chuckling] But from this distance, we're not hearing it too often.

CO: I'm picturing that Edvard Munch painting on the bridge where the person is holding their head, maybe their ears, and they're on the Golden Gate Bridge during the sound?

MK: [chuckling] Yeah, I think it's like that. And it's a very peculiar sound also just because of all the different frequencies that seem to be being produced.

CO: Let’s just play a bit more of it, if we can, just to get a sense of it.

[sc]

[Sound: The same sound from before]

[/sc]

CO: It seems like there's various notes in there. I mean, they and some people have compared it's like that soundtrack for a David Lynch film.

MK: [laughing] Yes. Yeah. A lot of soundtrack comparisons. Janne Särkelä, I’m probably mangling his name, from Finland is a sound designer. And he wrote on Twitter, The strongest one, the frequency, I guess, is almost exactly A, about 441 hertz. Then the other, more persistent one is about 480 hertz, A sharp. There are a couple more to later in the 398 hertz, which is a G, 350 hertz, which is an F. And there's also some higher pitches at one kilohertz, but faint.

CO: [both chuckle] Okay. That's the science interpretation. And there's some that are getting more artistic. Can you tell us a bit about, I guess, Kyle Tobner had something to say about this? Do you know that one?

MK: Yeah, it's a little dark, but kind of poetic. He writes, It has been waiting nearly 100 years, biding its time, searching for its voice. Now it sings a dreadful song, ancient and forgotten. It sings to the gods below, the dark, ruinous gods slumbering in the deep. It summons them to rise and scorch this world in flames.

CO: Oh, my! This is very Homeric. I'm starting to think the sirens are doing this then?

MK: Yeah. And, you know, there've been comments about. Is it the aliens? [both chuckling] That's a very common on. Are we sure it's not the aliens?

CO: Okay. So is this now going to be a feature of life in San Francisco that when the west wind is blowing, you're going to hear this?

MK: I have a feeling maybe. It's got to be a very particular angle of winds, I think. So, if that's the case, you know, San Francisco, we're used to dealing with change and new things. We'll be okay. [chuckling]

CO: And is it something that will haunt your dreams at night as this floats by?

MK: Maybe. I hope it doesn't happen at night, I have to say. It would be difficult to sleep.

CO: All right, Mark, thanks for talking to us.

MK: Oh, it was a pleasure. Thank you.

CH: That was Mark Krueger. He lives in San Francisco, California — and that's where we reached him.

[Music: Ambient]

Zoom firing

CH: Joanne Gallop of Smiths Falls, Ontario, knows the power of Zoom to bring us together. But she learned the hard way that it can also tear us apart. In April, Ms. Gallop was working remotely at a job she loved with the cannabis company Canopy Growth. Then Canopy announced mass layoffs. Here's Joanne Gallop reading from an essay that was broadcast this morning on CBC Radio's "Ottawa Morning".

[Music: Jazzy piano]

Montreal Symphony conductor

Guest: Kent Nagano

CH: He's going out on a real diminuendo. Maestro Kent Nagano's last season with the Montreal Symphony Orchestra isn't ending the way he probably imagined. He's been the Orchestra's music director since 2006 — and his contract will end in August. He had a triumphant final program planned. But obviously, the coronavirus has been one long sour note. Kent Nagano is in Paris right now. That's where we reached him.

KENT NAGANO: It's been a wonderful relationship for these past 16 years. Really 14 years as the official music director. But I started two years earlier, while the orchestra was in transition. It's been really so remarkable because during this time, most of the colleagues with whom I began, we've stayed together as a team. Of course, adding very, very gradually a new generation. Basically, we've come through this huge experience and voyaged together as an ensemble. And after 16 years, it felt like it was a moment to really pause and look at everything we have accomplished together. The orchestra, myself, the administration, the government, and above all, the community, the population of Quebec and Montreal specifically, and take a deep breath and then feel that the phrase was coming to an end.

CO: But what you did in the course of your 16 years, or 14 years, you fill the very big hole that had been left by Charles Dutoit when he departed. But you are leaving a very healthy situation compared to that time. Do you worry that your departure might make another hole in that symphony and in Montreal?

KN: No, not at all. I'm very, very confident in the orchestra. As you mention, we’re leaving an orchestra that's playing to sold-out houses every night. We're leaving a budget surplus. We're leaving an endowment fund, a very full endowment fund. So financially, orchestra's very healthy. We've never had so much talent in the orchestras before us. So I feel that the potential is there for much, much more growth. So I feel the circumstances are really optimum now. We have tried to build an orchestra that is an orchestra relevant for the 21st century. And from what we can see, if we haven't reached yet. We're certainly well on our way.

CO: And you have done what's so many other orchestras are long to do, which as you point out, you make it relevant. People say you democratized symphonic music, making it accessible to younger audiences, but didn't lose the quality. The rave reviews from critics will attest to that. How did you do that? [chuckling] I mean, I'm sure one would like to know what your secret is.

KN: [chuckling] Well, of course, there's never anyone's single secret. It has more to do, I think, with sensitivity to really spend the time necessary to know the community to whom you're performing, to really know very, very well the orchestra. And to be sensitive to really feel what it is that as a collective we need. I oftentimes say if people don't come and fill your hall for performance of Mozart, it is certainly not Mozart's fault. [CO laughs] The same could be said for all of our great composers. If we're not filling the hall, we are not doing something right as performers, or as leaders of a cultural institution. We’re somehow not communicating with the essence of these great composers. Because the composers communicate the spirituality of humanness, of humanism. And, boy, I think everyone would agree we need that today more than ever before. And people want to share that.

CO: You didn't just fill the halls. You went out and went to the audience, and you said to a newspaper that your biggest regret is that you never got to see the OSM play for the Montreal Canadiens when they brought back the Stanley Cup.

KN: [hearty laugh]I think that is maybe the only regret. That was in response to someone who asked, do I have any regrets? Yes. I was so sure that during my 16 years we were going to go and triumphantly play for the Canadians as they brought home the Stanley Cup. But we'll have to wait a few more years, I guess.

CO: Well, just stay. I think that would be what people would tell you to do. [KN laughs] You just shouldn’t go.

KN: Well, as you know, the orchestra and I, and not only myself, my wife and my daughter, we became, I would say, pretty crazy hockey fans while we were in Canada. We didn’t know the sport before for whatever reason. My wife was born in Japan, my daughter in Paris. And for whatever reason, ice hockey is not really a big thing there. But as soon as we went to our first hockey game, the first season I was in Montreal. I looked over to try to explain what was going on to my wife. And she was standing up on top of her seat screaming. So... uh. [both laugh]

CO: And your daughter spent a lot of her childhood in Montreal, didn't she?

KN: The first time that I met the Orchestra was ‘99. And it was a chemistry, a very, very special chemistry. So I flew to Tokyo to join an orchestra tour, where my wife and my newborn daughter were waiting for me. My daughter at that point was about 11 months old. And so since she's been 11 months old, I brought my daughter back maple syrup and a Quebec Hudson Bay Company store flannel blanket. And she still keeps the blanket today. She's 21 years old. And so she's pretty much grown up in Canada virtually all of her life.

CO: You were supposed to be conducting Mahler's Symphony Resurrection as your last week in Montreal. That was gonna finish the season, go out with a bang. And, of course, we have a very changed world now, don’t we? With this with COVID-19. How disappointing is it for you that you won't be able to do that?

KN: Well, of course, it is in many ways a disappointment. It's not so much not being able to conduct the concerts. It was true that there was a really wonderful planned crescendo for a departure that was meant to really peak with this week's performances. But I must say that for me personally, I have had an unusual honour, beyond a privilege. I call it an honour. You know, for many people, we have the wonderful privilege to be invited to places as guests and treated very, very well, treated with warm hospitality. But what happened in Montreal and Quebec is not only that, but my wife and I and my daughter, we were treated as family members. We were invited into the community, embraced, treated as family members, really treated as one of the locals, which felt so very special that for us, it's been 16 years of being really treated exceptionally well. So in that sense, I think it was more of a ritual that would have been fun to participate. I mentioned my daughter a couple of times in this conversation. She, unfortunately, was meant to graduate from Yale University this past May. And like her entire class, and virtually all seniors in North America, she had to have sort of virtual ceremonies to graduate with a prerecorded zoom camera ceremony. I think it’s an experience that the whole world is sharing together. So the most important thing is that we collectively come out of this pandemic healthier and stronger than ever before.

CO: Mr. Nagano, I wish you success and wellness wherever you go next and whatever you do. And I'm sure people in Montreal expect you to be back at some point in your future.

KN: Thank you very, very much.

CO: Thank you. Bye-bye.

KN: Bye.

CH: Kent Nagano is the outgoing musical director of the Montreal Symphony Orchestra.

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June 08, 2020 Episode Transcript

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