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Season 2: Episode 1 – Have you lost weight?

[Theme music]

HARVINDER WADHWA: People are curious and that's great.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: But there are some questions you just shouldn't ask. Or at least not like that.

HARVINDER WADHWA: I'm Harvinder Wadhwa.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: I'm Elena Hudgins Lyle.

HARVINDER WADHWA: And this is Inappropriate Questions.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Let's get inappropriate.

[Music]

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: So this episode, we're breaking down the question. Have you lost weight. Harv, when you were growing up in India, what were people's attitudes about weight like?

HARVINDER WADHWA: India had different beauty standards, at least at that time.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

HARVINDER WADHWA: So if somebody was a little what is considered an overweight here, what's considered good, because that person had enough money to eat food.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Or so they used to use the word healthy.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Hmmm

HARVINDER WADHWA: Then again, things have changed there as well. Because, again, obesity has become a problem in India. So, again, the attitude have changed. But at that time, it was very, very different.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Huh. That's interesting. Do you think right now India has beauty standards are kind of like the way they are here?

HARVINDER WADHWA: Pretty much. Pretty much.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: So thinness is really valued?

HARVINDER WADHWA: Now yes.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: And thinness is kind of associated with beauty and health.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Yeah all those good things. You know, even if you don't go to the gym, it's assumed.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yes

HARVINDER WADHWA: That you workout.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yes. You could see automatic.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Yes.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Benefit of the doubt.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Absolutely. Absolutely.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: I love seeing more body positive stuff on the Internet these days. I love seeing people who are trying to encourage more self-love and self-care. But, sometimes I can't put that into practice. I go home and I look at Instagram and then I look at myself in the mirror and I'm like, I know in my head that everybody is beautiful. But then I look at my body. I'm like, no, I still feel bad about it.

HARVINDER WADHWA: So sometimes they say ignorance is bliss.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yes.

HARVINDER WADHWA: And that's where I am. Millennials have a whole lot of tools. The social media tools.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yes.

HARVINDER WADHWA: All I have is a mirror.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: All right.

HARVINDER WADHWA: That helps me tie my turban.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: So every day?

HARVINDER WADHWA: Yeah. So I don't even look at my body.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: This episode, we're talking to some guests who identify as fat or plus size who can give us a personal perspective on this question.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Wonderful. Looking forward to that.

VOICE 1: People feel the right to be able to comment on you and your worth based on how much space you take up.

VOICE 2: I don't think that there is a wrong way to have a body.

VOICE 3: Honestly, when people said anything to me about my weight at all, it was precarious.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Just as a content warning, some of our guests will be talking about experiences with eating disorders and self-harm. We understand this might be difficult to listen to.

HARVINDER WADHWA: First up, we are speaking to Steph Conover, who goes by her stage name, Ivory.

IVORY: I am a mixed-race, six-foot dragon lady. I'm a firebreather, stage performer, and a whole lot of woman.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: That's not even all. Ivory is also a plus-size model and an athlete. She's also a founding member of the Succulent Six, a group of plus-size women who work to promote self-love and body positivity.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Let's first welcome Ivory.

IVORY: Hey.

HARVINDER WADHWA: And Ivory, your enthusiasm is infectious. I just love the energy.

IVORY: Thank you.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Which you have and that kind of it just exudes. Alrighty.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Can you tell us about a time someone asked you, have you lost weight?

IVORY: Oh, boy. It happens all the time. It happens so often that I actually don't take it in anymore.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

IVORY: You know, I'll style my hair differently. I'll wear a different article of clothing. And people think that it's complimentary to say, wow, you look great have you lost weight? And it's weird because as somebody who's recovered from eating disorders, as somebody who still battles depression, there's part of me that actually has that instant boost of serotonin, ah I look great I'm skinny. And them I'm like bitch. You are a plus-size lady. You have not lost any weight, and if you had, it'll probably find you. And that's OK. You can exist at whatever size you exist at and be happy there.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: When's the earliest memory you have of maybe receiving messaging or internalizing a narrative about your body?

IVORY: Oh, God. Probably five, six years old.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Wow.

IVORY: Like you'd get invited over to a friend's house for dinner when you were a kid. And there's three other kids around the table who are average size and then little fat me, and their parents would portion control me as I'm sitting at the table and we've all just come from gymnastics practice. Where we've all just come from playing tag and riding bikes in the backyard. And I get half of what they get because their parent feels like they need to, you know, gauge my portions appropriately.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Wow

IVORY: You're not even my parent. What are you doing?

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

IVORY: I still remember developing early, now and being a young gymnast in a bigger body. And my mother and my coach banded together to force me to wear a training bra when I was eight. And none of the other little girls had to wear a sports bra. But quote unquote, the spectators were disturbed by my jiggle.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Oh, my God.

IVORY: What is that? I'm eight.

HARVINDER WADHWA: OK.

IVORY: Right.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Your mention of jiggle has Harv on edge.

HARVINDER WADHWA: I'm getting uncomfortable.

IVORY: And how do you not carry that with you?

HARVINDER WADHWA: Yes.

IVORY: You know, and I don't think they they knew that they meant anything by it. But that harm still carries with you, that harm still sticks. Whether we realize it or not, kids are really impressionable and they're consistently picking up and then parroting what what they hear and what we say to them. And so then that narrative was sort of etched into my daily life and that's when these behaviors started with, you know, me having to justify where I eat, when I eat you know.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: I'm never sure what words I should be using when it comes to describing bodies. So whether it's plus size or bigger bodies and smaller bodies or fat and thin. What words do you use to describe bodies?

IVORY: If you got me three years ago, I would say, don't use that word around me.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

IVORY: It is a weaponized word and it's a word that we don't reclaim.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

IVORY: But absolutely. I do not feel that way now.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

IVORY: I use fat all the time.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

IVORY: Fat bodies are a cool thing.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Cool.

IVORY: It's a descriptive term. I'm trying to use it more often and get people to use it in a term that's sort of a generic descriptor versus carrying all this weight, you know, mind the pun.

IVORY: And really though, it is a loaded word and it is also just a plain descriptor. And I think the more that you disassociate it from the pain that it may have caused, the easier it is to sort of reframe what that word can mean to you. And just the same way that I wouldn't mind if you called me a brunette. That's a descriptor. I shouldn't mind that you called me a fat babe. You know.

HARVINDER WADHWA: As long as it's babe.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Now we're make no negative connotation. Yeah.

HARVINDER WADHWA: I want to just delve deep into two things.

IVORY: Sure.

HARVINDER WADHWA: One, you said the word has been weaponized.

IVORY: Yeah.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Can you elaborate on that?

IVORY: Oh, absolutely. I mean, growing up fat, your your weight is often the topic of discussions that it should never be part of. And people feel the right to be able to comment on you and your worth and your size based on how much space you take up. You know, literally. But also now I've come to learn metaphorically. Right. And so the way that that word is sort of loaded up and fired at you perpetually when you're growing up, when you're still discovering your identity and who you are and still finding your way is just atrocious. It's like.

HARVINDER WADHWA: To put you down.

IVORY: That's it absolutely. And like as with many other marginalized groups, it just although it's a descriptive term, all of a sudden it's used against you and it's used to describe you as less than because you're more than.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: So is using it more commonly kind of taking the sting out of this word?

IVORY: That's it. And I think it really is the community at large who has turned around and said, we're going to embrace it. We're going to turn around and we're going to make it ours.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

IVORY: But no, totally ok with that. I also use curvy interchangeably.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Cool.

IVORY: Plus size.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

IVORY: There's all sorts of great ways.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Great.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Looking at you.

IVORY: Yeah.

HARVINDER WADHWA: There is no way in hell.

IVORY: Yeah.

HARVINDER WADHWA: I can even assume that you are less healthy.

IVORY: Huh. Thank you. I appreciate that.

HARVINDER WADHWA: So in our society.

IVORY: Yeah.

HARVINDER WADHWA: If you are bigger.

IVORY: Yeah.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Or whatever the right term is.

IVORY: Sure

HARVINDER WADHWA: It's associated with ill health.

IVORY: It's funny because for me I've been active my entire life so I'm usually in the gym five days a week.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Wow

IVORY: I was a six day a week yogi for nine years. I have been a competitive gymnast. I was in soccer, badminton, skiing since I could stand. I'm an equestrian, I ride every single weekend. I can squat three hundred and eighty pounds.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Why don't you tell us what you can't do?

IVORY: And you're right. As people often equate size to health, right? And it's one of the things that I'm always happy to dispel. You know, depending on how they phrased it.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yes.

IVORY: Kind of leads to everything. Because I like showing people that there's an exception to every rule. My husband was a semi-pro boxer and he had, you know, over 50 fights under his belt. He's about six feet tall, 150 pounds soaking wet and is quite athletic looking. But I can still do more situps than him, lift more than him, and usually do more hay bales at our farm than he can in terms of taking care of our horses. But you'd never know it standing side by side if you were using that same lens of looking at sort of body size as a as an indicator of health. You'd assume all the fat girl can't do it, right? Damn right I can very much.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Fair enough

IVORY: And I think it's an important and an intelligent dialogue to have is that it's nice to have people out there like Lizzo, you know, running circles around regular bodied people on stage showing her cardio levels. But alternatively, we need to make room for people who are just, you know, average activity level.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Absolutely

IVORY: And walk around in a fat body the same way we leave room for people who are average activity level and in a sort of straight-sized body. I think that the problem that gets thrown at fat people a lot is concern trolling. There's a term for you, you've heard of that?

HARVINDER WADHWA: No.

IVORY: Okay so you know troll, right? So concern trolling.

HARVINDER WADHWA: My kids called me that.

IVORY: So concerned trolling is a term for people who veil their criticisms and usually their prejudices of a marginalized group with.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Concern.

IVORY: The underscore of concern. Right. So I have nothing against fat people. I'm just worried about her health. It's not healthy. It's BS because at the end of the day, you don't see people saying that about straight size humans.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

IVORY: So why do we feel like we can pass that judgment?

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

IVORY: And I think that we can absolutely try to encourage all of us to live our best lives.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah

IVORY: But at the same time. At some point we have to butt out.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

IVORY: Right.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: For sure.

HARVINDER WADHWA: So sometimes we have concerns and I am more guilty than anybody else. My father is on the heavier side.

IVORY: Sure.

HARVINDER WADHWA: And my concern for him is: one, he is not getting any younger. And two, more importantly, is because that is impeding his movement.

IVORY: Sure.

HARVINDER WADHWA: And that is a huge concern to me.

IVORY: Yeah.

HARVINDER WADHWA: And now, thinking back, I've done terrible things.

IVORY: Yeah.

HARVINDER WADHWA: I meant well. But then you to say that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. So that's exactly where I am.

IVORY: Yeah.

HARVINDER WADHWA: And or at least I was. But I love my dad. I want him to be healthy and I want him to enjoy life.

IVORY: I think that if you love, you know, your dad or if you love somebody in your life and you want them to be healthy, that is totally different than actually saying damaging things about their body. And I think that sometimes we can love each other to death. You know, a lot of the most hurtful comments that were said to me growing up were said because I love you. Even for my mother, who literally is like my my beacon of light, like she was incredible. But a lot of the things that she said to me growing up about my weight and my size was her trying to love me, thin and led to my own self-harm her. I battled with cutting for years and depression and whatnot. And so your big concern is your father's quality of life.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Absolutely

IVORY: Quality of life is so much more than just if he's mobile, based on his weight or not. Quality of life is what's going on in here. I'm tapping my head, guys. And I think that's the important thing is, is finding that balance and supporting each other through whole body health.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right. Yeah.

IVORY: You know, my thing is this. What are ways that you can keep your family member feeling whole as a person and supported and still support them on that journey? It's not a matter of you sitting down and going, I'm concerned that your weight is affecting your health. It's like hey, let's go for a walk together. You know, I found this great recipe that I really like, maybe we try it. Or maybe you have that conversation what, once and you just leave it be.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Right.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Given that we've talked about body positivity so much so far. Do you want to just kind of define what body positivity means to you?

IVORY: Sure. It's funny because body positivity 10 years ago looked like a bunch of radical fat babes on the internet. So saying screw conventional beauty standards, I'm gonna do it my way. Cellulite is cellulit and all of these other terms. Right. But like anything that becomes mainstream 10 years later, we've got big companies who are co-opting this and still whittling it down and marketing it and packaging it back to us in a form that is twisted from its original version. So, I love seeing Dove get on board and do their campaign for real beauty and really casting more diverse models, more diverse body types. But they're still airbrushing things. And so body positivity is about loving all of yourself, flaws and all imperfections and all. And so how are you still packaging this back to us with a gaze that has a sheen on it, right? You're missing the point because everybody's standard of beautiful is actually inherently different. And if we're not consistently homogenizing it by force-feeding these images through media, we'd find that the same way that, you know, people like their food spiced differently or their hamburgers dressed differently. They're also going to find different things in life beautiful.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Fair enough

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: I keep thinking that like the only thing that people find attractive is this kind of like beauty standard that we uphold in the Western world. But the more and more I talk to friends, the more I realize that you know, my friends have all sorts of different kinds of types.

IVORY: Oh, yeah.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: So my friends like, you know, the silver fox kind of guy. And I don't really. And then so my friends, like my friend's boyfriend, is like the nerdiest nerdy ever. And she's obsessed with him and finds him so, so sexy. And there's so many different ways to be attractive.

IVORY: Yeah.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: And that's kind of really helped me feel a little more at home and comfy in my own body and be like, okay, you know, there will be people who will think you are the shit.

IVORY: That's it. Yeah, and I think the more that we give ourselves permission to love ourselves exactly as we are.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

IVORY: The more we give other people the permission to do the same. You know, find someone and love them exactly as they are and watch them bloom. Some of the most incredible self-love I've found is through finding my people in the queer community. I have a couple of different friends whose favourite thing is the thing that I used to think everybody would hate and mine, and that's bulges. And I actually have like a smattering of friends who are like have have waxed philosophical about how that is the sexiest damn thing that they could ever see. Like on a person, and who knew, right?

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

IVORY: But I mean. But there's a kink for everything, right?

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

IVORY: And I think if you can if you can learn that and make space for that, then you can recognize that there's space for your own unique beauty.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

IVORY: To be important, to be worthy and to exist and to be valid. Right.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah, for sure. I've heard a lot about body neutrality.

IVORY: Yeah.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: And this idea that if it's if it feels unattainable to to love your body wholeheartedly that you know, going for acceptance and being just good with what you have. This is I think some people find that more attainable.

IVORY: Body neutrality, I dig that.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

IVORY: I'm glad that it's there because it is the next step to body positivity.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

IVORY: And it needs to be there.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

IVORY: Cause you don't make the leap from self-hatred to body positivity overnight.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

IVORY: You have to get to neutral. And that's sometimes a dirty, ugly fight depending on the day, I'm 99 percent body positive with my body. The stomach's hanging out more if I'm getting new stretchmarks out of the blue, that's something thing that's been happening to me lately. I'm just embracing it. But there are days that I even find myself getting negative on myself. And I might just be body neutral that day. But at least I can get to neutral rather than to body hatred or body self-harm, you know, or body self-sabotage.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

IVORY: Because that's a slippery slope. And I used to live down there.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

IVORY: For a long time.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Do you think, "have you lost weight" is an inappropriate question?

IVORY: I'm trying to think of it in a context where it wouldn't be. If somebody is going really public with their weight loss journey and they need you to champion them. And you see them and they're hoping that you notice that they've lost weight. I guess it could be positive but again as somebody who's recovered from an eating disorder. I worry about that kind of disordered thinking.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

IVORY: Right. Where we're rewarding each other for having less mass.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

IVORY: It's such an alien thing. Right. Like like I truly believe there's life on other planets and I wonder if they to run around worrying about how how much gravity affects them the way that we do here.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

IVORY: You know, because it's nuts. And why like why do we need to comment on each other's mass. But it's still this weird, attainable, tangible complement.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

IVORY: To some people. Like for me I just kind of don't comment on people's weight at all. But it's weird cause we have no problem being like you cut your hair, it looks great. So I guess it's like you lost weight. It looks great, seems like an okay zone.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

IVORY: You you have to understand the context that happens behind that. You don't necessarily know has a person been sick. Have they been stressed?

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

IVORY: Did they just lose someone.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

IVORY: You know.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Yeah. But if somebody is telling you each day I have started going more to the gym and I started cutting down on my carbs,.

IVORY: So how about just, you look great.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Very good.

IVORY: Yes.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Very good. Excellent.

[Music]

HARVINDER WADHWA: It was such a pleasure meeting you.

IVORY: Thank you. The pleasure is all mine.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Thanks so much for coming in.

IVORY: Oh, no. My pleasure. It was amazing.

HARVINDER WADHWA: I mentioned to Ivory that I'm concerned about my dad's weight because I'm concerned about his health. I've always thought that weight and poor health were connected.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah, I think a lot of us have made that connection. So to find out more about that idea and where it comes from, I called up Kimmie Singh. She's a registered dietitian who calls herself the body-positive dietician. She runs a weight inclusive practice where she helps clients pursue a better relationship with their food and their bodies without promoting stuff like dieting and weight loss. Kimmie has also researched the impacts of weight, stigma, health care. Here's her take on size and health.

KIMMIE SINGH: As a body positive dietician, I don't think that there's a wrong way to have a body. I also don't think that we can just assume somebody’s health status or the way they're eating or engaging in movement by looking at their body size.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Kimmie told me that a lot of the negative health effects that we tend to associate with weight can actually be attributed to something called weight cycling.

KIMMIE SINGH: Weight cycling occurs when people go on diets and they end up dropping weight and then they ultimately end up gaining that weight back. Sometimes gaining more. They go to another diet again and it happens And so it goes up and down, up and down. We find that people that have that history are at increased risk for the negative health effects that are associated with being in a larger body.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: To add to that, Kimmie said that losing weight often isn't effective.

KIMMIE SINGH: Between 95 to 98 percent of people that pursue intentional weight loss end up gaining not only the amount they lost back, but they also end up gaining more. So this idea that fat people are supposed to maybe like do certain things and then make their body smaller than they can achieve health isn't something that works for people when it's actually put to the test.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Facing stigma based on weight can also impact your health.

KIMMIE SINGH: When health care providers are asked about how they perceive patients in larger bodies, they are less likely to trust patients in larger bodies. They're less likely to think that they're going to comply with recommendations. People are just not given diagnoses are not given further testing because doctors are saying, oh, this will go away if you just lose weight. Yeah it continues in a way that really contributes to overall stress.

[Music]

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: What makes the question, have you lost weight complicated is that people lose weight for lots of different reasons. It's not always intentional weight loss or healthy weight loss.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Bob Kerr is a writer and comedian. He started losing weight in his first years of college. Over time, Bob's relationship with food became more and more difficult until it began to seriously impact his health. Just a note, Bob will be talking openly about his experience with an eating disorder.

BOB KERR: I was in college. It was my first year of college and I had developed a crush on a girl. It became so severe that I didn't eat. I wasn't hungry at all. So I just didn't bother eating. And it wasn't something that I really thought about. It was just I'm not hungry so I'm not going to eat. And then a friend of mine, we were at a hockey game and he said, did you lose weight? You look good. And that was the first time I've ever, as someone who grew up as a chubby kid. That's the first time I've ever gotten a compliment on my appearance ever.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Right.

BOB KERR: And I, I really ran with it. I was like, wow, I'll just keep doing that where I'm not eating. And then I also started exercising quite a lot. And it also became all-consuming. It became very obsessive where I was checking the scale. You know, five to 10 times a day. And.

HARVINDER WADHWA: So you wanted to lose even more weight?

BOB KERR: Absolutely. Yes. And then the thing was in my head, it was, how low can I go? And when I reflect on that now, it's kind of a scary thought because what's the ending of that? You know what I mean, like, how low can I go until what? You know what I mean? Until I drop dead or, you know until it gets really serious. And I was also getting more compliments. In the early stages, you can't, nobody can tell. You know, it's only when it gets to a very severe point. But people were saying, you look great, you look good. And again, this is still very new to someone who's my whole identity. My life up to that point was that I was a fat kid, you know, an overweight teen. So I just sort of reveled in like the attention that I was getting was something that I was never used to.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Why do you think people were asking these questions and making these comments?

BOB KERR: Well, I think especially like when I started I lost about a hundred pounds. This is a noticeable difference. It's kind of shocking to see if you haven't seen a person in a while and they've lost a significant amount of weight. I think that there is a jarring aspect to that. You know, it's something that is kind of unexpected. And I think there is a compulsion to say something. So, I mean, I was also a facilitator in this myself.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

BOB KERR: Because because I took a great amount of pride in having lost this weight, despite the fact that I was doing it in a really unhealthy way. So I was showing people like, you know, my driver's license and maybe like, oh, my God, that is not you. Like they couldn't believe it.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

BOB KERR: And I was, like, reveling in that. You know, it was like candy to me.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right. When did it stop being candy to you? When did that sense of accomplishment feel different?

BOB KERR: First of all, compliments stopped.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

BOB KERR: At this point, I was very emaciated. And I was pale and I, my hair was falling out as well, which is a side effect of like when your body is starting to shut down. That's when people started getting concerned. There was no more compliments. It was like I was either sick or I was addicted to like I was on heroin. But it it soon become that I had like a life-threatening illness.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right

BOB KERR: You know, and friends would come up to me and say, like, you know, what's going on? And my mom was also super concerned. Obviously, my parents, where my mom, you know, she pulled me aside and she gave me an ultimatum and said, like, you know we've called the cops and they said that we could pull you out of school and put you in a hospital, like we still have that power and we will do it if you don't start making changes. At first, it was like I was sort of kidding myself out, like, you don't get it, you know? You know, like these people don't understand and I'm trying to accomplish something.

HARVINDER WADHWA: But Bob, the compliments stopped and now there were questions being asked.

BOB KERR: Yeah.

HARVINDER WADHWA: So wasn't that not a trigger enough for you to understand, ok, now things have gone a little on the wrong side?

BOB KERR: Right. When you're deep into it, you just can't see what everybody else is seeing. Especially the other tricky part about losing that much weight that quick is, I often look in the mirror and the fat skin is still there. So there's the illusion that you're still imperfect, you know, and that's what I'm looking for, is some type of perfection.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

BOB KERR: And so there's all this loose skin. I still feel fat. And and that was never going to go away.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Right.

BOB KERR: Eventually, I actually started eating to appease my mom, you know, because I didn't want to get taken out of school. That meant a lot to me. So I felt like there was a lot at stake. So it was to me, I think it's sort of a gesture of like, please don't worry about me. I want to try and figure this out.

HARVINDER WADHWA: But you realize that by that time that there was a problem.

BOB KERR: Yeah.

HARVINDER WADHWA: OK. So she was trying to play maybe reverse psychology or whatever she was trying to do.

BOB KERR: Yeah.

HARVINDER WADHWA: But what would have helped you?

BOB KERR: Huh.

HARVINDER WADHWA: And here I'm not talking about professional help. I'm just saying people who are close to you.

BOB KERR: That's a good question. I don't know, outside of like an intervention of like how it's affected other people because I honestly couldn't see outside of myself and until my friend told me that people were questioning her character.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right?

BOB KERR: You know what I mean? It's like, why aren't you doing anything about this? Your friend is dying. Why aren't you saying anything? That that affected me in a big way.

HARVINDER WADHWA: And she came and shared with you that that's what people are saying?

BOB KERR: Yes.

HARVINDER WADHWA: And that kind of motivated you to.

BOB KERR: It didn't make I never really thought about people around me being affected by. It was such such a solitary thing that I felt like I could just do it by myself.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Right

BOB KERR: And it was kind of like a silly thing to think that, like, it's just me being affected. It's my physical body being affected and that's it.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

BOB KERR: When you're when you're stuck in that sort of thing, it's hard to see beyond yourself, you know.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: From what I usually see, men with eating disorders aren't talked about a lot. Like the idea that men can have an eating disorder. What was it like for you going through it? Did you know that that was a thing?

BOB KERR: I definitely was of a mind that anorexia was a female thing. It was only women have anorexia. So that that was easy for me to just brush off. You know, as like that as a thing.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

BOB KERR: So but that also distorted my views of what I was doing, obviously because there wasn't a name for it.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

BOB KERR: And it also made me think that there wasn't a problem.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

BOB KERR: Men just don't have anorexia. And back in that day, you know, the internet was, I don't know, five years old or something.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Oh God

BOB KERR: Like, yeah, I couldn't like, you know, look up male anorexia and try to find ways around it. And the and the thing is that I actually didn't get help, which I regret deeply. It was something that I always had this mindset that I had to do everything myself, which is a damaging sort of mindset. But I'm glad I pulled out of it. But it was I think I had made it much more difficult on myself. And that's the other thing, too, is like I did get out of it. But the mental aspect of it didn't go away for a long, long time. I would say actually, until maybe like five or six years ago. And this happened my 20's, it's just like this. And I'm saying the mentality of, you know, I was able to gain weight and feel better, but the whole distortion around it stuck around with me for a very long time. Honestly, when people said anything to me about my weight at all, it was precarious.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

BOB KERR: You know, and they didn't realize, but there's an element of that experience that will that will stay with me forever, you know.

HARVINDER WADHWA: This time if anybody comments on your weight, whichever way, it's okay, you can.

BOB KERR: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

HARVINDER WADHWA: It doesn't bother you one way or the other.

BOB KERR: No, it really doesn't. No, no, no, no. But honestly, and that's from a lot of time passing, and therapy and.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

BOB KERR: You know, reading stuff helps gain new perspectives on things. It took it took a long time. I mean. Yeah.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Do you think it just in general, is "have you lost weight" an inappropriate question?

BOB KERR: I, it's not even that I find it inappropriate so much as I just wish that the idea of conversation centered around weight would just go away. It's kind of small talk. It feels like sometimes. But I would just like the value of it to be diminished.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Just a slight sidetrack. So what happened to your crush?

BOB KERR: Okay. No, I think it's a good ask.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Back in chapter two we were introduced to.

BOB KERR: It's a good it's a good question. So what happened is we went to see a movie. Then I told her I liked her and she said thanks. And that was it.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Oof.

BOB KERR: Yeah yeah yeah.

HARVINDER WADHWA: And that was that.

BOB KERR: That was that.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Thank you so much for coming in Bob. It's been great.

BOB KERR: Thanks for having me.

[Music]

HARVINDER WADHWA: Elena, after our conversation, what I'd learned is commenting on people weight can be more harmful than helpful.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: It really can. I realized how many things that I don't need to worry about in my life because I am I'm straight-sized. So things like Ivory spoke about being scrutinized for eating or people being asked why they don't exercise more and I realized that I don't get that. And that's not something I think about a lot.

HARVINDER WADHWA: I'm going to talk to my dad about his weight differently.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah, how so?

HARVINDER WADHWA: I am not going to talk to him about his weight at all.

[Music]

HARVINDER WADHWA: My new mantra is live and let live.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Okay. I like that. I support this. I'm Elena Hudgins Lyle.

HARVINDER WADHWA: And I'm Harvinder Wadhwa. Thanks for getting inappropriate with us.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Many thanks to our guests Ivory, Kimmie Singh, and Bob Kerr. If you're looking for some practical tips on body positivity or body neutrality, you can find some at our website, cbc.ca/iqpodcast. Along with the transcript of this episode and other resources. Every episode of the show has its own companion web comic that was made by an artist from the community we're featuring. This episode it was made by Mollie Cronin. You can find it on our Instagram @IQ_podcast

HARVINDER WADHWA: The tremendous trio behind this podcast are: Sabrina Bertsch, Cindy Long, and Elena Hudgins Lyle.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: This show is mixed by Andrew Norton.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Our digital producer is Judy Ziyi Gu.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: The senior producer of CBC Podcasts is Tanya Springer. And the executive producer is Arif Noorani.

HARVINDER WADHWA: An inappropriate question is like telling your crush, you like them and they don't say back.

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TRANSCRIPT: Inappropriate Questions - Season 2, EP 1

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