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The Current Transcript for June 8, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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VOICE: In the last several weeks, last few months, the kinds of epic changes and events in our country that are as profound as anything that I've seen in my lifetime.

MATT GALLOWAY: A lot is happening in this world all at once. From a global pandemic to economic collapse to worldwide protests demanding justice for anti-black racism to a U.S. president threatening to call in the military in his own cities. In 30 minutes, the veteran diplomat Richard Haass puts this moment into context and assesses the performance of the president in a singular time of crisis. Also this morning, as protests fill city streets around the globe, politicians and police chiefs are taking a knee with demonstrators. We'll discuss what it will take for a gesture to turn into action. And later.

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VOICE: Let me take a moment to speak directly to kids. I know these past weeks have been tough. There are people who can help. They're there to make sure that, you know, that you are not alone and help you and all of us through this.

MG: Out of school and away from friends, why vulnerable children are in an even more precarious state right now. Plus, from Canada's north, virtual bhangra lessons. We begin though with mourning in a time of black grief. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

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Amid protests, funerals offer a space for collective mourning — and fighting anti-Black oppression

Guests: Patrick Ngowalo, Kami Fletcher, Nyle Fort

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[Sounds from US protests]

MG: Protests continue this weekend across the United States and Canada against police brutality and in member of George Floyd, who was killed by Minneapolis police two weeks ago. After a memorial service last week in Minneapolis and in his birthplace of North Carolina over the weekend, Floyd's body is returning to Houston, where he spent most of his life. Today, there will be a public visitation followed by a funeral tomorrow. Pastor Patrick Angulo is a lawyer and founder of Resurrection Houston. He was also a good friend of George Floyd. He will be helping to lead the memorial service over the course of the next several hours. And we'll be speaking with him coming up on the program shortly. In the meantime, this is a difficult time in a difficult moment for black communities around the globe. It is a moment of grief, but also of mourning. And you're seeing that on the streets. In the protests there's a lot of anger, but there is also a general sense of exhaustion and people feeling as though they are grieving something collectively. That sense of grief and that sense of grieving will be felt as we mentioned in Houston, but it's also being felt in cities around the world. The home going is the culmination in Houston of six days of ceremonies happening in three different cities.

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[Singing of Amazing Grace]

MG: In Minneapolis, George Floyd was honoured with song and prayer and family members shared fond memories.

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VOICE: You know my brother, we did a lot of things together from like talking with my mom, dancing with my mom, cooking with our mom, brothers and sisters. Man, so much. We made banana mayoinaise sandwiches together, you know. It was it was a family thing, you know.

MG: And then the civil rights leader, the Reverend Al Sharpton, delivered a eulogy calling for justice and change.

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VOICE: George Floyd's story has been the story of black folks because ever since 401 years ago, the reason we could never be who we wanted and dreamed of being is you kept your knee on our neck.

MG: As I mentioned today, there will be a public visitation and a funeral tomorrow for George Floyd. Pastor Patrick Ngowalo is a lawyer and founder of Resurrection Houston. A good friend of George Floyd as well. Pastor, good morning.

PATRICK NGOWALO: Good morning. How are you?

MG: I'm well, and I'm sorry for your loss.

PATRICK NGOWALO: Thank you.

MG: What kind of friend was George Floyd? Who was he as a friend to you?

PATRICK NGOWALO: George Floyd, I met him on top of the decade. I was a student pastor trying to do ministry work in the community homes project area of the city. And he was instrumental in helping me break into the neighbourhood. He knew people that I didn't know. He helped us as far as meeting folk and talking to folk. He kept our events and things like that safe. And he was just hospitable. He was a gentle giant. And so I think I owe a lot of it to George Floyd.

MG: How have you been processing the last two weeks and what you've seen across the United States, here in Canada and right around the world?

PATRICK NGOWALO: Man, I've been at a number of hte rallies. I've seen the energy, the enthuisam. The passion is real. And it underscore that a couple of weeks ago of [inaudible] that George Floyd's death is an inflexion point in our country.

MG: An inflexion point in your country?

PATRICK NGOWALO: The sin of racism is going to mass to us. We were either going to go towards chaos or towards community. I don't think we can go back to the way things used to be.

MG: There have been protests against racism and police violence in, you know, for decades throughout the United States and around the world. Why is this moment, do you think, different? Why do you think because of what happened two weeks ago, you can't go back, as you say?

PATRICK NGOWALO: I think that what I don't think people may appreciate is every time there's a hashtag in particular segments of our society, there's a level of anger that arises. But then quickly, they're able to put it away. But these hashtags build up over time, and I think this one, most people who saw it or the people who have been angry after every hashtag, I think there was just a level of "man, I'm tired. I'm fed up. I can't." The level of frustration boiled over to the point of and this particular death was so singular in that you could see it from all angles. It shouldn't matter, but I mean it just for most people resonated, I'm tired, we're going to do something. So I think, man, I think you're at the end of the road.

MG: I was going to say, is that how you feel? I mean, there's we've been talking about that sense of collective grief and exhaustion. Is that how you feel coming out of this as just being tired?

PATRICK NGOWALO: I think initially I was tired and I think I spent some time lamenting and grieving and man it's time ago. We're doing some things on the ground. And so now you could feel that there was this collective sense. And then now I think after his funeral, you'll probably see people spring to action with their various campaigns and such.

MG: What would you like to see happen in the days following? I mean, today and tomorrow will be huge events in Houston and the community will come together, but what happens in those days following?

PATRICK NGOWALO: I think that you see people calling out governments into account and our nation into account. Our churches into account saying, hey, there needs to be a national where it's day, time, year of repentance from this systemic/corporate sin of racism.

MG: What do you make of what's happening in Minneapolis, where city council there is pledging to dismantle the police department, the police department that was responsible for the death of George Floyd?

PATRICK NGOWALO: I actually think that that's a good thing. When we say dismantle, if we mean rethinking how we do policing, I think that's a good thing. Police, of course, are essential to any thriving third world country. But I think that all of the structures — economic, legal, political — need to be examined, re-examined in light of the fact that racism is at the faultline of most of Western civilization.

MG: What do you expect to happen today?

PATRICK NGOWALO: I expect a city to come out and celebrate one of its favourite sons and I think it'll be a great time. I mean, you know, bittersweet time, but a time of memories and celebration of a life that was cut down in the prime.

MG: I'm sorry for your loss and I appreciate you speaking with us this morning, Pastor. Thank you.

PATRICK NGOWALO: It was my pleasure.

MG: Thank you very much. Pastor Patrick Ngowalo is a lawyer and the founder of Resurrection Houston. Close friend as well of George Floyd. He was in Houston, Texas. We've been talking about that idea of grief and mourning. The kind of public outpouring of grief and anger has a long history in black communities and in political movements. The murders of black people and the memorials to them have been crucial in struggles for civil rights, desegregation and the abolition of slavery. Joined now by two people with insight into that history and the pain of collective grief and the power of collective mourning. Kami Fletcher is a professor at Albright College and an expert in African-American culture and history. Is also the president of the Collective of Radical Deat Study. Nyle Fort is a minister and activist, PhD candidate as well in religious and African-American studies at Princeton University and the son of a black funeral director. Good morning to you both.

KAMI FLETCHER: Good morning.

NYLE FORT: Good morning,.

MG: Kami, we just heard pastor in Willo there talk about exhaustion and just being tired. That sense of of a collective weight that is hanging around people. Is that how you feel?

KAMI FLETCHER: Yeah, you know, when he was talking, I thought about Fannie Lou Hamer, you know, who coined the phrase, I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired. 1964, a civil rights activist and webt the political route. You know, the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party. And what's so telling is a few days ago, I just saw her great niece on TV. She had been shot with a rubber bullet, may lose an eye, you know, and experiencing the same thing. And it was just crazy, you know, and what she kept saying was, we can't keep going through this. You know, Fannie Lou Hamer, a sharecropper, almost lost her life. So, yeah, there's absolutely, you know, a collective tiredness. But when black folks get tired, you know, we gather strength together collectively and we get active. That's part of our history.

MG: Nyle Fort, what have you been thinking about over these last few days, as you've seen the cammies point to that that kind of collective exhaustion?

NYLE FORT: Well, in many ways, I think that we're recognizing that something is very unprecedented, but at the same time, it's all too familiar. Black folks have been tired for centuries in this country. But I think we're reaching a culmination of an expression of not just exhaustion, but of rage. And I think those things are inseparable. Part of the reason why folks are so angry is that because folks have been so tired, and I think that it's inspiring to see people with their backs up against the walls who have been quarantined for months at this point to essentially walk out into the streets and risk their lives in order to save other lives. I think it's truly inspiring.

MG: Funeral rituals, we know, are important in all cultures. What's the special significance, Nyle in black communities? What's distinctive about what happens in black communities?

NYLE FORT: So, I mean, there's so much I mean, historically, it's been central to how we forge African-American life. You can go back to slavery and see how slave rebellions were plotted at the funerals of enslaved folks. You look at Gabriel Prosser or Nat Turner. After Nat Turner's rebellion, the Commonwealth of Virginia passed legislation to actually ban black preaching at slave funerals because they saw it as threatening. We see that all throughout African American culture and history. I think the most familiar example is Mamie Till's decision to keep the casket open so the world could see what they've done to her baby,.

MG: Emmett Till

NYLE FORT: And I think it's important to realize, as many historians argue that that, the pictures of the images of her son, Emmett Till, actually sparked the civil rights movement. We see that go all the way through, even to Black Lives Matter, where you have Bree Newsome climbing a 30 foot pole and taking down the Confederate flag the day after Barack Obama eulogised Reverend Pinckney. And she said in an interview that when she saw his casket roll by the flag, it's a part of what agitated her to do it. And we see the same thing today. People expressing grief out in the street.

MG: Kami, pick up on that. What comes out of these collective moments of mourning and how do you see I mean, the whole idea of the home going, the funeral rituals that have been so important as Nyle says to black liberation movements.

KAMI FLETCHER: Yeah, thinking about it historically and in some of these first laws, in the colonies and Virginia was against black folk gathering for funerals. And one of the things that we know about how black folks were using funerals as a form of resistance, is that the slaveholders in their diaries and their writings that have come down to us, they kept writing about. Right? And it was this idea that the slave holder is accepting this, they're doing this. No, black folks are refusing to roll over, you know, and they're continuing to memorialize. And I think in our rituals, what I've seen in my own research definitely in the 20th century is this idea of fighting back against that stereotypical narrative. Righ?. So if white society, you know, sees you as definitely doing the Jim Crow here, the 1920s, 1940s, as this brute, you know, this angry animalistic black man, you know, Mammy, you're just a black woman here, you know, to serve white folk in that funeral, you are then tethered to your community. I'm a mother. I'm a sister. I'm an aunt. And they're shown through, first of all, the number of mourners that come. Right. There's hundreds of people they want to gather in to pay their last last respects. Then you look at how black folks have used material culture. Right. So we're having horses that are drawn glass casket. You know, we have the multiple floral arrangements that they know we are a three dimensional human that was part of this community that's missed by this community. You know, we're not just your caricature.

MG: In this moment where people are connected in ways part of this is, you know, a pandemic where we haven't been able to go out and you can't do the things you could, you know, rub somebody in the back or give a hug or something in a moment of grief. How has this moment changed that context? Kami?

KAMI FLETCHER: Yeah, you know, that collective coming together for black folks is central. And I'm seeing, you know, many white Americans really leaning into, you know, digital, whether they're leaning into Zoom and saying, you know, I wouldn't have had the funds to come to this funeral any way and really embracing it in different ways. I'm seeing in the collective black community — and I want to be clear about this, you know, this collective black community is this consciousness, is this identity forged through slavery. So there's differences as it relates to religion, as it relates to economics and region. But for the most part, you know, they're feeling really incomplete. I'm hearing that. I'm hearing cheated. Folks are opting to wait. You know, you can, they've done the 15 person in funeral home, you know, funeral wake, all in one. But a good friend of mine, she's waiting in November, which we think, you know, outside will open up again or either next year to have a full home going. You know, you're not fully celebrated if everyone that knew this person, you know, is not able to really gather up and remember, because it's all about celebrating the life. That's a big component of our ritual.

MG: Nyle, you grew up in a funeral home?

KAMI FLETCHER: Myself, Kami, no. I grew up in the south.

NYLE FORT: I did.

MG: But Nyle grew up in a funeral home.

NYLE FORT: I did, yes, in Newark, New Jersey.

MG: And what did you learn about grief and those rituals that Kami was talking about in where you grew up?

NYLE FORT: I think several things. One is how we turned the ritual of death into a celebration of life. You go to any black funeral — most black funerals at least — you're going to see joy and sorrow being inseparable. You going to see folks shouting and jumping and dancing and clapping. And you're going to see a eulogist who's sweating and building up a frenzy while folks cry, but also while folks shout out and laugh. You're going to see a repass after the funeral where folks are telling stories and eating food. And so I think that the way that black folks have responded to loss in death is remarkable. How we've made a celebration of it. And I think that's also reflected in the protest, the chants, the dancing, the energy, the pageantry that we see at funerals sort of reflecting over in the way that we protest. I think the other thing is how we've given in death to our deceased what oftentimes they don't receive in life. And that's also historical. So the pageantry, the adornment, the ways in which we treat the body, where we beautify it. I think that's part of the reason why Ferguson exploded. Because when you leave a black boy's body on the pavement to bleed for four and a half hours, I think that local community refused to accept that, in part because of how dear we've treated our dead. So I think a celebration of life and a way in which we've given to our dead in death what they haven't had in life.

MG: Just in, we only have a few seconds left, but do you see, as the pastor said, Nyle, do you see this as a moment that has momentum beyond what we'll see in the next couple of days?

NYLE FORT: Absolutely. I mean, we see people rising up in the streets. We see folks also organizing. We see folks demanding that government officials defund law enforcement budget. So, yes, we see grief. Yes, we see rage. And we also see strategizing, organizing movements that are going to go past this particular moment. And so I'm very excited to see the latest iteration of this movement. And I'm very excited to see folks translating and concerting their grief into rage and into something that will outlast this particular moment.

MG: It's really great to speak with you both this morning. Thank you for your time.

NYLE FORT: Thank you.

KAMI FLETCHER: Thank you so much for having me.

MG: Nyle fort is the son of a black funeral director, also a minister, activist, PhD candidate in religious and African-American studies at Princeton University. Kami Fletcher is a professor at Albright College who studies African-American death practises. The CBC News is coming up next. And following the news.

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VOICE: Our friends are dismayed. This is not the United States they recognize.

MG: The president of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haass joins us to make sense of these troubling days. There's a lot that's going on all at the same time. We'll try and put it into some historical context, coming up in six minutes, I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

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America’s loss of global leadership and the end of the Liberal world order

Guests: Richard Haass

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, the impact this pandemic is having on kids who are facing abuse. But first, making sense of unprecedented times.

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[Sounds od protests in New York].

MG: You may have seen the video we're hearing the sound from. Seven-year-old Wynta-Amor Rogers marching through the streets of Long Island, New York. She's staring deep into the camera, chanting, "no justice, no peace." And around her chin pulled down so she can speak is a surgical mask. These are historic times. A pandemic, an economic collapse, civil unrest. Sometimes it feels like there's too much history coming too quickly. To help us understand the meaning of this moment, I'm joined by Richard Haass, president of the Council on Foreign Relations and author of The New York Times best selling book, The World: A Brief Introduction. Richard Haass, good morning.

RICHARD HAASS: Good morning, Matt.

MG: This protest movement started by the murder of George Floyd continued to grow peacefully this weekend. Enormous protests around the world. How significant is this moment to you.

RICHARD HAASS: I think it is significant in so many ways. This is not a flash in the pan, it's enduring. I think it represents a accumulative frustration of decades of feeling that the country is not improving. That racism remains widespread deep and wide. That police forces continue to act in many cases with a degree of brutality. It's also taking place against the backdrop of economic hardship and the anxiety caused by the pandemic. But I think this is this is large and you're seeing all sorts of all sorts of people, including an entire new generation, get involved in politics for the first time. So my sense is this is big.

MG: People look for leadership in these moments. How do you think the president has done in leading your country through this?

RICHARD HAASS: Well, to be blunt, he's not trying. He's not trying to lead the country through this. He's showing very little sympathy or empathy for the people on the streets for, for George Floyd. What he's essentially doing he's portraying himself as, "the law and order president." He's playing to his base, as he's done essentially for three and a half years now. But he has not led his country well through the pandemic. It was inevitable the virus was coming to the United States. It was not inevitable it would have anything like the toll it has had. And he clearly is not leading us through these these protests.

MG: He's been calling himself a law and order president and we saw these extraordinary scenes in Washington, D.C. a week ago when protesters, peaceful protesters were attacked with tear gas, so he could go and have this photo op in front of a church. He has faced fierce criticism from some surprising corners in this. James Mattis, the former defence secretary, came out against what he was doing. The retired colonel Colin Powell, was saying that President Trump is a threat to the Constitution. You defended Colin Powell on Twitter this weekend. What do you make of what's going on when members of the military are coming out and speaking out? And I think it's fairly unprecedented ways when it comes to the president's actions.

RICHARD HAASS: It is unprecedented, but these are individuals who are confident of their place in American society. They're confident in them themselves. They're all well schooled, well educated in the basics of American democracy. But I think there's something more here also. I think they're genuinely offended by what it is they see and they're worried. These are men who they are and they all happen to be men, who have spent their entire lives rebuilding the American military after Vietnam and creating many ways the most extraordinary, the most successful, the most integrated racially and increasingly by gender, institution in American society. And they see a threat. They see it threatened by the use of the military in ways it was never intended to be used on the streets of the United States and they wanted to nip that in the bud.

MG: How do you think the rest of the world is seeing the United States right now?

RICHARD HAASS: I expect the rest of the world is shaking its head, saying to itself, what happened to the United States? This is not the United States I remember, either from what I went to school here or from what I read in my textbooks. We're supposed to be, to use Reagan's famous phrase, the shining city on a hill and we're not a shining city right now. We're, we look inept in dealing with the pandemic. We've obviously got racism that we haven't dealt with. We've got more than 40 million unemployed. When foreigners come to the United States and you land at our airports, you go, wow, this is worse than anything we have at home. So, again, this is this has not come out of the out of a background, a new. I think it basically adds to this narrative that something's wrong here in America.

MG: You tweeted that United States appears to the world a divided, diminished and distracted. How much of a gift is what's happening and, to your point, how the president is handling this? How much of a gift is this to countries like China and Russia?

RICHARD HAASS: Oh, it is a gift because as the United States, you lose a standing. There's opportunities for. I think probably the biggest gift to Russia in the last few days was the announcement that we're unilaterally going to be taking for some of our forces out of Germany. I see no basis for that. What what whatsoever? This is an investment in the stability and future of Europe. I think for the Chinese, the nature of our response, the ineptness on the pandemic took she's been paying off the hook for his own inept response. No one could make any invidious comparisons. And I think what we're doing in the streets makes it very difficult for us to criticise she over what the Chinese are doing in Hong Kong. So I think it's a real gift to them.

MG: There's been speculation, you'd mentioned Germany, that if the president were to win re-election, he could move to perhaps move the United States out of NATO. Is something like that even in the realm of possibility?

RICHARD HAASS: Look, one of the things I've learnt in the last three and a half years is to be very wary of assumptions. You don't have to move the United States out of NATO technically to make the American commitment to NATO much less significant. We've already added important elements of uncertainty. I think by how we deal the Kurds, what we're now negotiating to get out of Afghanistan, what we just did in Germany, withdrawing from the World Health Organisation, the Iran nuclear deal. And I could go on. I think what's happened is the United States is no longer will others. Others can no longer look at us and say, hey, we can count on them. We can put all of our security eggs in the American basket. So whether we technically stay in NATO or not, I think for the Europeans, their confidence in the American security guarantee is much diminished.

MG: There is that phrase the moral authority. And people will often say, does this country, does this nation, does this leader have the moral authority to lead? Has the United States lost that moral authority?

RICHARD HAASS: Well, we've clearly sacrificed a good deal of it by how we're behaving, how we're acting at home by not criticising certain things around the world, such as what's going on in human rights, are trampled in places. I think we've lost some. I'm left standing. But I also think we can we can get some of that back. You know, my whole my whole argument is far policy is not just what diplomats do. Which the example you set. And if we basically commit to setting a better example, we do do better at dealing with racism. Our economy comes back, say we're in the forefront of coming up with some kind of a medical answer to the pandemic. I think our standing could go up.

MG: Where does it leave the diplomats who have to sell the idea of America to the rest of the world?

RICHARD HAASS: It's a long day's work. You've got to, you've got to walk the walk. You can't just talk the talkm to use the cliche. And I think for an American diplomat right now to be knocking on the door, some foreign governments say, hey, you've got to do this on human rights or this on democracy or this on the pandemic, that the door will get shut in their faces, essentially. There can't be a gap between the talking points of diplomats and the reality of your country.

MG: All of this is happening in the midst of a global pandemic. And it's easy in some ways to not forget that. But that could push to the side as you see people protest on the streets, as you see extraordinary other actions happen on a day to day basis. How would you assess the world's response to this pandemic?

RICHARD HAASS: It's been essentially national response, not a world response, which in and of itself is bad. And we see a tremendous variation. We see the successes in places like Germany or Taiwan or South Korea, what have you. And we see the utter failures. You know, the United States has been a failure. I think Brazil has emerged now as the new great problem. Italy was worried about Mexico. So when I see it really depending upon national responses and you see successful democracies and failed democracies, we see successful authoritarian system like the. And we see Russia and Iran doing terribly. The bigger problem with the world is I see very few preparations for two things. One is to really get much of the world out of the debt problem they're going to have, which has been exacerbated by this crisis. And second of all, if and when hopefully when a vaccine does emerge, I don't see in place all the procedures and arrangements. Who's going to pay for it? Who's going to produce it? What's the going to be the sequence of availability? So I don't think the world has yet organised itself to deal with the future, much less with the basic problems facing the World Health Organization.

MG: And coming out of the health crisis is an economic crisis as well. What concerns you most about the economic crisis?

RICHARD HAASS: Well, the biggest thing is that a lot of the country's going into the pandemic were already weak. A lot of them were already overextended. So this is compounding there. There are difficulties around the world. We don't necessarily have the mechanisms in place to help countries either with the relief phase or recovery. The one exception, let me at least that one vote of positive things before everybody starts drinking hemlock here is Europe. I think what France and Germany is doing quite is quite interesting. The fact that the European Commission has come forward with a big 750 billion euro recovery plan for or for all of Europe, I think that is an intriguing development. And obviously, you know, I think the U.S. Federal Reserve has been extraordinarily active and forthcoming. So I see monetary authorities in both the United States and Europe stepping up to the challenge.

MG: You look, your analysis is done through a lens of history and there's the cliche those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. When you look at where we are today, is your sense that leaders and perhaps some voters have forgotten the past, have forgotten some of the lessons of the past?

RICHARD HAASS: Well for some of them to have forgotten the past would be good because that would assume they once knew it. I'm worried that some people never learnt about the past in the first place. Here in the United States, we don't do a very good job at all at teaching young people either about our own past, what makes American democracy tick and we clearly don't teach that much about the world and we clearly don't prepare them for the world. That's actually why I wrote the book. I wrote a kind of a primer because I felt that you could graduate from virtually any American high school or college or university in this country and not have taken a single course about this world that's going to fundamentally affect your life. But your basic question. Sure, I worry that people don't understand that about the power of history. It's not that it repeats itself. But there are there are things to be learnt and there's things to be learnt, whether it's dealing with pandemics about, say, second waves and recurrences. There's things to be learnt from the depression. There's things to be learnt from dealing with social and political protests. I also think the United States needs to learn that its position in the world is not permanent, necessarily, that we've got to. We've got to work whether the quality of our society or the intelligence of our foreign policy. We've got to maintain America's position in the world that doesn't get maintained by itself.

MG: Is your sense that this moment is creating the conditions for that humility that sounds so important to what you're talking about?

RICHARD HAASS: I don't think so. I'm more worried that it will create conditions for further American pulling back from the world that we are going to turn inwards in order to deal with our racial challenges, our economic challenges, our health challenges were politically divided. So what worries me is we're going to turn away from the world exactly at a moment when the principal lesson of the pandemic ought to be that we have to pay more attention to the world, what began in Wuhan doesn't stay in Wuhan and we face all these challenges from proliferation to terrorism to climate change to pandemics. And I'm worried that the United States is not going to have the bandwidth or the focus or the appetite to stay active in the world and then I worry about what happens to the world.

MG: That's a grim outlook. Does it keep you up at night thinking about this?

RICHARD HAASS: Look, what does, it's grim, but there's nothing in it that it's inevitable. There's nothing here that's baked into the cake. Look, I've been lucky. I've worked for four American presidents, for Carter, Reagan and both Presidents Bush and I've been in the Oval Office dusk to see that individuals can really make a difference. There's so little that's inevitable. So, yeah, things look grim right now, but they don't have to stay that way. Good policies can be introduced tomorrow if people want them to want them to be introduced. And that's a is the positive side. That's what I tell young people. Is yeah, you've inherited a bad hand of cards, what's going on in the country right now, but things can improve, but they don't automatically improve. If things are not inevitably bad, it's equally true that there's nothing inevitable that things will get better. It'll take good people getting involved.

MG: Richard Haass, it's great to speak with you. Thank you.

RICHARD HAASS: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Richard Haass is the president of the Council on Foreign Relations. His new book is called The World: A Brief Introduction.

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If taking a knee was a genuine gesture, it would be followed by concrete action, says professor

Guests: Rinaldo Walcott

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio one. I'm Matt Galloway.

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[Sounds from anti-racism protests]

VOICE: These aren't protesters. These are ambassadors of peace and we want to be part of that ambassador movement.

MG: That's Toronto Police Inspector Matt Moyer describing protesters as ambassadors of peace. He joined protesters and took a knee outside the U.S. consulate in Toronto over the weekend, and he wasn't the only one.

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[Sounds from Toronto protests]

MG: Toronto Police Chief Mark Saunders being asked to take any in Toronto, and he did. The prime minister, Justin Trudeau, also took a knee in Ottawa when he joined protesters on Friday. Some have applauded this move. Others have voiced concern about what it means and what it will actually lead to. Rinaldo Walcott is a professor of Black Diaspora Cultural Studies at the University of Toronto. He joins us now. Rinaldo, good morning.

RINALDO WALCOTT: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What did you make of Toronto Police Inspector Matt Moyer calling protesters ambassadors of peace?

RINALDO WALCOTT: Well, it's an interesting phrase. What he didn't go on to say is why they would need to be ambassadors of peace. And of course, if he had went on to say that, he would have to acknowledge police violence and why people were out on the streets in the first instance. So there's a way in which the police and some politicians have quite quickly, if you will, on these kind of affected economy, on the protesters and that's been interesting to watch.

MG: He said he also wants police to be part of this movement. When you hear that, what goes through your mind?

RINALDO WALCOTT: When I hear that, what goes through my mind is that this is a blatant underhandedness. That you know there are two kinds of knees that exist out there right now, symbolically. There's the knee that Colin Kaepernick took, which was pointing towards resistance, injustice and potential liberation and then there's the knee of the police, a deadly move that took the life of George Floyd, and has harmed and hurt others in the past. And those two knees should never be conflated. And what the police are effectively doing right now is conflating those two knees. Obscuring and confusing the knee that they used to take the life out of a person's body, with the knee that Colin Kaepernick inaugurated by trying to point towards that injustice.

MG: So when the prime minister or the Toronto chief of police take a knee after protesters publicly ask them to do so — the black community is not one community, obviously — but how do you think people who are out on the streets protesting receive that?

RINALDO WALCOTT: Well, I think they receive it, like I said, this is an unleashing of the effected economy, meaning that when they take those knees in those public ways at those protests, what they're doing is they're playing to emotion. But they're playing to emotion, minus policy, minus economic policy, minus public policy. And so it's a lovely thing, it's a great photo op, but it actually does not begin to address the stakes of the claims that the people on the street are actually making.

MG: Does it, I m ean if the chief is asked to do this though, and he does, or the prime minister doe and then again, it's a symbol, to your point, a photo, a photo op that's seen around the world, does it suggest a willingness to listen at all, to you?

RINALDO WALCOTT: Well, I think that, you know, it should. If the knee was being taken in any kind of genuine way, after they got up, they would have announced certain kinds of reforms, they would have announced certain kinds of initiatives. Taking the knee outside responding in substantive ways to the claims that the protesters are making, and the demands that the protesters are making is not sufficient. It's not enough, it's a distraction, it obscures the issue.

MG: Is there danger in that in obscuring the issue, to your point?

RINALDO WALCOTT: Of course, there's a massive danger in obscuring the issue. Well, when we think about, you know, death in Canada at the hands of police, then they think about death in the U.S. at the hands of police to engage in this kind of effective performance. This kind of affected economy, minus intent and substantive intent to reform police and as we see now the move for defunding police in a number of areas. This is a way to not address those kinds of issues.

MG: If police or politicians, I mean Greg Fergus, the chair of the Parliamentary Black Caucus, was saying that, yes, there's a lot more work to do, obviously, but he's proud of what his government has done. If police or politicians kind of extend the hand part of the way across the table, what's the responsibility of those on the other side of the table to figure out what to do with it?

RINALDO WALCOTT: Well, I think we have to be clear what kind of hand is being extended. Right now for instance, when our prime minister took a knee, there's at least six investigations into the RCMP. He does have some control over the RCMP. So when he takes that knee without offering us any insight about how he intends to address the concerns and investigation of the RCMP around police violence, especially against indigenous people, he's actually not offered us anything. And so it's not a question of refusing a hand that's extended, it's a question of asking what is at hand bringing to the table. And so far, none of these police chiefs, or our prime minister, have brought anything to the table.

MG: What would you want to see after the knee?

RINALDO WALCOTT: Well I think I mean, I'm glad to see that finally people are talking about defunding the police and then that has become a widespread part of the conversation. I think eventually we're going to have to tackle with the abolition of private property and property itself. That property sits at the nexus of all of these concerns, all of these violences, all of these brutalities. That we have a criminal code that is so, that makes property so supreme that people can lose their lives for passing a fake $20 bill — when we know that our economies are flush with fake money — tells you something about the ways in which we've organized the society where human life is valued less than property. And so it's having those deep, philosophical, but also practical conversations about substantive change that's at stake here. And it's what Colin Kaepernick's knee initially was meant to signify.

MG: Rinaldo Walcott, great to speak with you. Thank you.

RINALDO WALCOTT: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Rinaldo Walcott is a professor of Black Diaspora and cultural studies at the University of Toronto.

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CBC Class of 2020 promo

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio one. My name's Matt Galloway. This is grad season. High school students, post-secondary students graduating, looking ahead to their futures. Although, like everything else, things are very different for the class of 2020. This was not the end of the school experience that you expected and it doesn't seem right that you're missing out on this rite of passage. And so with that in mind, we are planning a couple of special shows next week, a virtual class of 2020 grad ceremonies happening here on The Current. There will be pomp and circumstance and ceremony and all sorts of exciting things happening. Very excited about this. Even without the formal auditorium ceremonies, grads in communities are finding ways, their own ways and their special ways to celebrate across the country. There are virtual gatherings. There's drive by parades. There are big gestures and there are small ones. Here's one that caught our eye.

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VOICE: Hey, folks, it's Max here. It's springtime and normally this time of year, colleg kids are writing their final exams and getting ready for grad. And as we approach the end of the semester, we feel especially bummed for all the hardworking college students that don't get a chance to properly celebrate with their family and friends. Well, we heard what Ava Harrison who's a shining star at McMaster University, the place where the band met, but not only that, she also volunteers at a shelter. She tutors. She's been collecting protective eyewear from people working with COVID-19 patients. Well they also heard she's an Arkells fan.

MG: That's Arkells frontman, Max Kerman, and his neighbour, who hopped in a car to surprise Ava Harrison with a live performance right on her front lawn.

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[Clip of Arkells performance]

MG: It's become this year's kind of unofficial but favourite grad anthem, "Years in the Making." Arkells, dedicated to the class 2020.

[Song: "Years in the Making" by Arkells]

MG: That's Arkells and "Years in the Making" dedicated to the class of 2020. We will dedicate a special show to high school grads and one to post-secondary grads next week. We have a great opportunity if you're a high school grad, CBC is putting together kind of a digital yearbook for the class of 2020. We're asking you to record a video message. Your words of wisdom, rallying call, best memory. Send it in and share it with the rest of the country and those who are graduating. Go to cbc.ca/classof2020 to get all the details. Do that and you'll be part of CBC's Class of 2020 National Yearbook. And your message could yes indeed end up on the air at cbc.ca/classof2020. The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. Back in 90 seconds. Stay with us.

[Music]

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Children in abusive homes need more protecting during COVID-19

Guests: Wendy Carr, Irwin Elman

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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VOICE: Children who suffer abuse may go unnoticed while Canadians are under weeks or months of isolation during the global pandemic. For those children at risk, home is not always a safe place. There are concerns that reports of child abuse have dropped right across the country.

MG: That's an ad from Child Safe B.C. This shutdown has been particularly hard on kids report. Reports of abuse may be down, but texts to Kids Help phone lines are up something like 60 percent. Counselling is up 55 percent. It's hard to know what's happening behind closed doors, which also makes getting to the kids who need help really difficult. Wendy Carr is a professor at the University of British Columbia. Irwin Elman is Ontario's former child and youth advocate. Good morning to you both.

IRWIN ELMAN: Good morning.

WENDY CARR: Good morning.

MG: Wendy, a lot of families were in, we know, difficult situations before this pandemic. What has this lockdown meant to them and meant to the kids and those families?

WENDY CARR: Well, one of the things where we have been concerned about for some time in the education field is that with the suspension of in-person classes, one of the safety valves for children, which is going to school, has been removed. And one of the areas of watchguard or oversight, which is contact with educators, has also been removed. So it's a double, it's a double jeopardy for some children and families.

MG: Irwin Elman, we hear, as I mentioned in the introduction, this huge spike in the number of calls and texts and counselling to Kids Help Phone. What are you worried about when it comes to these kids?

IRWIN ELMAN: Well, of course, I understand the idea of the remove of surveillance of families and children, but I really think those calls to Kids Help Phone is about our need to worry about support for children and families. And that support and positive relationships and belonging and isolation has replaced it in place, that sense of belonging and support. And I think that is going to be a real worry coming out of the pandemic, as well as in this time of social distancing and isolation that still exists even though we're coming out of it.

MG: Where does it leave those kids Irwin, if you, if that change happens?

IRWIN ELMAN: Where does, I'm sorry, Matt?

MG: Where does it leave those kids? If that change happens and, you know, as we start to move through, you know, this pandemic, those kids find themselves more isolated, find themselves cut off from those senses of support that they had before.

IRWIN ELMAN: Well, I think it's obvious that leaves those kids alone. And I remember as a child advocate over and over in it in a variety of ways children saying to me that when they have no voice, when they are invisible, is when bad things happen. And that's not something we can accept. We really, really need to use as much energy and intellect in supporting our children as we do in supporting their business. We put a lot of energy in into right now opening the economy as if opening our provinces and territories is the same thing. It's not. And we need to create a movement really to to open up provinces in a way that honours and supports children and young people and supports families. And I think there's lots we can do to do that.

MG: I want to ask you about that in a moment. Wendy, you mentioned teachers and not just the, as you said, the release valve that going to school can offer kids, but also the extra eyes that teachers can offer on kids health. You, with your team, created this support tool for teachers early on in this pandemic. What was that?

WENDY CARR: Yes, working with Senator Stanley Kutcher, who is also a psychiatrist and youth mental health expert and also consulting with Kids Help Phone and Children's First Canada, we created a resource that could help teachers and want to say teachers, I mean, all educators, counsellors, administrators in their outreach efforts, because these started right away. Educators were calling, emailing, video, chatting with families right from the very beginning to a make contact with all of their students. And B, make sure that if supports were needed, just as Irwin is saying, it's about supporting families. You know, if food was a concern or there was job loss or whatever might be going on for families, that schools could be instrumental in making connections with community support and that sort of thing. So in addition to that, we wanted to make sure that children who might be living with family violence and who may not have already been on on a school's radar because the school typically has no has a list of vulnerable students to make sure that this additional group was being considered in these outreach efforts. And so we developed to resource that just it had questions then could be asked just to get a sense of what was going on for children.

MG: Questions like what?

WENDY CARR: Well, tell me about your day. How are you feeling? Is there anything that tell you need right now? What's, tell me about a typical event or shape of the day for the weekend. How are you spending your time? Is what's causing you concern? Just the kind of typical questions that educators ask all the time because educators have our relationship with their students. So just making sure that there was a sense of finding out about a child or use our well-being at this time.

MG: Irwin you were talking about opening the economy and obviously, governments have focused a lot on that idea of getting the economy back rolling. Are you seeing governments responding in a meaningful way to the risks that young people would face that Wendy has been outlining?

IRWIN ELMAN: Well, I. I think that there's not been energy put in how to respond to children in the same way that we're responding to a business and opening economy. I think Wendy is right that teachers are in a unique position and we should have done this from the beginning. We certainly can do it coming out of the pandemic to establish meaningful relationships with with children, students. And we should encourage them to do then support them to do that. It's not just about what maths lesson the child is learning through distance learning. And we should support them not just to ask these probing questions in terms of surveillance, young people and children. Very seldom will just tell you what's going on outside of a comfortable conversation. What we should do and and do this genuinely is ask them how the country is doing. Ask them how the education system is doing. Ask them all the questions we're asking service providers. Ask them the same questions that we asked the psychiatrist and Wendy about how to create this form. If we want young people, for instance, as children, if we want them, and children who are in difficult situations to tell a supportive battle, how do we ask them how we do that? Get their ideas, get their ideas nationally and use teachers to do that. Have those conversations, then we should do it. Even after school closes, teachers can still connect with children in that we're in their classrooms and keep that relationship going. And God knows we need the wisdom of their lived experience. But I also think government should backstop organisations that touch a children's child's life in the same way that we backstop business. We haven't done that. There are organisations like Boys and Girls Clubs, community centres, centres for young people are leaving care who don't know what they're going to be around next month because their budgets have been tied up and they've had to lay off staff or tells that they can't work just at a time when we need them to be connecting to young people and children. And finally, if I can make this point. Yeah, in terms of surveillance and child protection, we do need to tell our products and services to get out there. I mean, we have spent. So much time thinking about how we can get our nails done and our hair done in under this social distancing rules given to us by public health. We have not spent the same amount of energy figuring out how to get out, to see our children, to go visit group homes, to go visit foster homes, to go to all calls that come in on intake to help parents, biological parents who have visiting visitation rights with their children who are in care to see them. I mean, how is that possible that we spend more and more time looking at how to sell a bobble in a dollar store than we do about seeing their own children? It's not right and we can do better than that.

MG: Wendy, Irwin mentioned the idea of lived experience. How does your lived experience shape your own work wendy?

WENDY CARR: Well, certainly growing up with family violence has made this very real for me in terms of empathizing with what some children and what some families are going through right now. I was fortunate to never have the additional threat or pressure of a pandemic to exacerbate what was going on at home, but I can only imagine how being isolated would have additionally isolated in our family home and makes the pressure that that might have brought to the situation. I just, you know, it hurts my heart to think about that. And so, yeah, this is very real for me on a personal level. And I do empathize and I agree with what Irwin was saying, that that attention to increasing supports and actually trying to find out about the lived experience of children now and you know, as this unfolds and in the days ahead, would really help to inform how best to support those students. I can say that that schools are places where a lot of social and emotional learning and education takes place. It's certainly much more than the curriculum and has been for a very, very long time that that is a big part of the curriculum. This is children's well-being. So I think schools can certainly contribute to enhancing that work that they're already doing. And I have to assure you that that has been a huge focus for all of the work that schools have been doing during the pandemic and will in the days ahead. Can we do more? Yes, absolutely. In terms of alerting the system to or child care, child welfare to problems that may be going on for families. Schools are responsible for about one third of the calls or the report. So that that critical role that that schools play needs to continue and it needs to be enhanced.

MG: What would you say, just finally, Wendy, to parents and kids who are struggling right now? This is a really difficult time and as you mentioned, then you layer on all the other things that are happening and might be happening behind closed doors where we don't know exactly what's going on in those homes. So what would you say to those parents and to those kids who are struggling right now?

WENDY CARR: Well, that one of the other parts of the resource was to include health lines and these health lines, you know, it's it's not just about reporting abuse. It's about reporting the need for support. And you can, this can happen through schools, Part of the outreach is, in fact, connecting families to financial resources, food, counselling. You know, it's about supporting families so that they can function more effectively and that can happen then. And so there are groups and groups of of organizations across the country and in every region and province that can assist. As Irwin says, though, you know, there needs to be it can't just be about a family seeking help. It needs to be about organisations reaching out to families to say that there are resources to help them, because right now some families feel that there's no hope. And so we need to restore that connexion to hope and to a better future, because that's just not evident for some families right now.

MG: Where do you see, finally, Irwin, the hope? We talk a lot about the resiliency of kids. And you'd see this in the work that you've done as a former child and youth advocate over the course of those decades. Where do you see the hope in what Wendy's been talking about.

IRWIN ELMAN: Well, I think we have such a great opportunity as a country. I remember a young person talking to a deputy minister and saying, you know, we need love in our lives. We need support of adults. We need to feel like we belong. And and this was a young person who is in top welfare care and t hedeputy said something like, we can't legislate love. And she said, that's true, we can't legislate love, but we can legislate the conditions in which love can flourish. And if she had a mike, she would have dropped it. And I think that's our project right now as a country. Yeah, I understand people need to we concerned about the economy and business and jobs and profit. Fine. But can we also now build a country in our provinces and territories and First Nations communities in a way that love can flourish for children? And I think I really believe this, the minister that's responsible for young people nationally should bring her counterparts together from provinces and territories, invite indigenous leaders, and they should talk together about children. And how do we create in all our communities a country where young people experience and children experience the love that we want for them and they deserve? And all of what we've just been talking about are it, but there's so many things we can do. And that's the hope I see and particularly when we partner with children and youth in doing that. Wow. I'm ready. Let's go.

MG: It's powerful stuff. Irwin, it's great to speak with you again. Thank you.

IRWIN ELMAN: Thank you. It's great to hear your voice too, Matt.

MG: And Wendy. Thank you so much.

WENDY CARR: Thank you, Matt. Appreciate it.

MG: Wendy Carr, professor of teaching at the University of British Columbia. She was in Vancouver. And Irwin Elman is Ontario's former child and youth advocate. He was in Toronto.

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Breaking down barriers with bhangra

Guests: Gurdeep Pandher

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio one. My name is Matt Galloway.

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[Clip of bhangra instructions]

MG: Just follow the instructions. Seems pretty straightforward. Those are instructions for a bhangra dance class. The students dressed in fatigues, including heavy boots. They are members of the Canadian Armed Forces and this lesson took place in the Yukon under the direction of Gurdeep Pandher. Perhaps you've seen his videos online teaching just about anyone who wants to how to do this Punjabi traditional dance. Millions and millions of people have watched the videos. Hundreds of people participating in these classes online. Gurdeep is at his cabin near Whitehorse, close to the shore of Lake Leberge. Gurdeep, good morning.

GURDEEP PANDHER: Good morning, Matt. Good morning to all CBC current listeners too.

MG: Tell me about that video. What's happening in that video? Seems, as I said, fairly straightforward, but you have to follow the instructions. What are you teaching people there?

GURDEEP PANDHER: I'm teaching how to dance Punjabi dance bhangra and I'm teaching, it's a good a happy dance to bring joy. And it's also good workout dance. So, yeah. And also, it's a dance, it's a cultural dance. It also brings understanding. So I'm teaching those moves.

MG: How difficult are the moves to learn?

GURDEEP PANDHER: Not that difficult, although there is some form of instruction because there's a technique, there's a style, but if someone learns it, they are pretty easy.

MG: What do you love about dancing?

GURDEEP PANDHER: I love that the first it's all about positivity. Like when I dance, doesn't matter which type of mood I am, after I dance I feel so much happy. I feel so much productive and positive. And same with everyone, people who participate in my classes, sessions or they dance with me, like my dance partners, they give me feedback that they are just feeling so good. They're hust feeling so happy and wonderful. So I love that part of the dance.

MG: Are there other bhangra instructors in and around Whitehorse?

GURDEEP PANDHER: I'm the only one in the Yukon. It's a small population. Like in the whole Yukon, only 40,000 people live. So I think I'm representing this population.

MG: How did you end up living up there in a cabin?

GURDEEP PANDHER: So the travelling brought to the Yukon. I was born in a small village on a farm in Punjab. So I thought that living in a cabin is close to what I am, close to my roots. And I love living close to nature. It's wonderful. And it's awesome. Like those people who have been to the Yukon, they know that it's gorgeous. I live close to Lake Laberge. It's so beautiful up here. And great wildlife. So many wonderful animals and creatures around. So it's awesome.

MG: What are the things about living in a specific places that you build a community or perhaps you can insert yourself into a community? Did you feel as though you were creating your own community there or was there a community that you that you could kind of join up with once you moved there.

GURDEEP PANDHER: Yeah, it's kind of both. Like when I moved here, I came into contact with the several communities, like from different cultures and different backgrounds. So some people, they invited me to teach this form of dance and when I started dancing, teaching them, then those classes started to bring like continuous ongoing classes. And then so many people came and it slowly started building its own bhangra community in the Yukon now. Like there are so many people kind of from all walks of life who took my lessons. Now there is this dance community here which makes me happy that I was able to create this happy community out of many communities.

MG: What does that tell you when people would be willing to try something like this? Get involved, take the lessons in something that might be completely different than anything that they've ever done before.

It tells me first that that people are willing to try something new. Because when I started teaching this, people didn't know about that this form of stress ever existed in the world. So people liked the idea. They wanted to try it. And also, it also helps them learning about a different culture. And it also helps them building that sort of understanding that we are together. It speaks many, many things. So it's great that people like they came out of their comfort zone cause for so many people they didn't even expect, they didn't even had a single idea what they would be doing in the class and they just came just to give it a try. So I'm glad that the people here in the Yukon, even in Canada, they like try new things. They like getting involved with a different community cultural and these type of things.

MG: We can't get together to actually learn the dances face to face. And so now people in this pandemic have to do this virtually. What does that mean for you to be able to connect with people?

GURDEEP PANDHER: That meant a lot. Cause after this pandemic started I had to stop all my in-person classes and I had to shift all my classes online. In my very first class 70 people from all over Canada, from all provinces and territories they joined my classes. It was really, really like a touching moment for me. Like it was like happy emotional moment, like when I saw so many faces in my Zoom class online and taking lessons from me learning this dance and then reporting after the class that we felt very happy. It was awesome. It was a great workout. We were in our homes and we were able to do some sort of exercise. It was wonderful. It meant a lot to me.

MG: Okay, we're gonna play a tune and people are gonna be able to dance at home. We can't give the whole lesson. What's the one thing that people need to do if they want to dance along to this?

GURDEEP PANDHER: First, they need to lift their left leg up, like then they need to tap it twice and on the right leg, they hop twice. So left leg up, hop on right twice, and do twice left side, then they do twice same thing right side.

MG: I'm trying to figure out how to do this. We're gonna play this song and hopefully people can dance along. It's great to speak with you. Gurdeep, thank you.

GURDEEP PANDHER: Thank you so much, Matt. Thank you so much for having me.

MG: Gurdeep Pandher. You can see his videos in terms of how to learn how to bhangra dance online. Millions of people have watched them on YouTube. Use those steps to this piece of music. This is Ravinder Grewal and "Pagg."

[Song: "Pagg" by Ravinder Grewal]

MG: Ravinder Grewal. A tune called "Pagg."

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Closing with Tom Power

Guests: Tom Power

MG: That is The Current for today. Tom Power, host of Q.

TOM POWER: Matt, were you dancing?

MG: Dancing in his studio. Dancing in my chair. If I stood up and did the steps that we were being taught, I'd perhaps would throw my back out.

TOM POWER: I want to see, I want to see your phone. I want to see you like the health app so I can see how many steps you got just then.

MG: If you haven't seen the videos, Gurdeep Pandher is brilliant and really does get people in a time where things are very, very heavy, find some life and some joy in the moment.

TOM POWER: We had him on the television show. That was very fun, you know. It's been, it's really amazing videos. Definitely recommend you go and check that out. It's really worth watching.

MG: How was your weekend, sir?

TOM POWER: Not too bad, you know what I mean? A little bit of lazing around, a little bit of watching TV. Went for a little run outside, hung out with my brother in his backyard, some friends in the back. Are you doing the backyard social distance hanging?

MG: Yeah, from distances. We've kind of measured ourselves out and tape measure helps to make sure that you can see people, but also have the safe distance between you.

TOM POWER: Tape measure helps and so does Rum Punch.

MG: Don't know anything about that.

TOM POWER: Big show today we have. We're going to look into the history of "It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back." One of the greatest records of all time by Public Enemy.

MG: Yes indeed.

TOM POWER: And we're going to talk to the daughter of Natalie Wood, natasha Gregson Wagner about her account of what happened to her mother.

MG: We'll listen for that. Thank you, Tom.

TOM POWER: See ya, Matt.

MG: Tom Power, Q coming up right after the CBC News. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. Take good care and we'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Song: "Pagg" by Ravinder Grewal]

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June 8, 2020 episode transcript

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