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The Current Transcript for June 5, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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At the end of the day, we're not going to die of COVID-19. We're going to die of hunger because there's even no food parcels in Cape Town.

MATT GALLOWAY: When this pandemic began, international health experts worry that when the virus landed on the African continent, the effects, given a stretched health care system and limited resources, could be catastrophic. And while the lockdown has been profound, that has not been the case in 30 minutes. How countries in Africa use their experience with Ebola to fight COVID-19. And what the rest of the world could learn. Also this morning, Canada will need the support of African nations if it wants to be successful in its quest for a seat on the U.N. Security Council. With a vote looming, Canada's man at the U.N. makes a final pitch for this country and talks about why a seat at the table matters in the first place. And then.

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To be a woman artist to have to be a certain way. You either objectify yourself. Don't talk too much. Do not take any hard stance. You know just appeal to everybody. And then you will succeed.

MG: The Indian pop star Sona Mohapatra has made a career of doing the exact opposite of that. She's here to talk about a life in music defined by not being quiet. But as black communities here and abroad tackle distrust with police, we begin with the rocky relationship between people in Canada's north and the RCMP. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

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Video of RCMP hitting Inuk man with truck shows police choosing violence over protection, says lawyer

Guests: Mayor Kenny Bell, Lori Idlout, Myra Tait

MG: This week, disturbing video emerged of an RCMP officer using his truck to knock over an Inuk command. The incident happened on Monday in Kinngait, formerly known as Cape Dorset. Nunavut. RCMP arrested the man for public intoxication. That officer has now been reassigned and put on administrative duties and none of it. Nunavut RCMP have ordered an independent investigation into whether criminal charges are warranted in this incident. The emergence of the video has also bolstered calls for RCMP officers to be outfitted with body cameras, particularly in the north. Kenny Bell is the mayor of Iqaluit and the head of the Nunavut Association of Municipalities. Mayor Bell, good morning.

KENNY BELL: Good morning, Matt. Thank you for having me.

MG: Thanks for joining us. What were your thoughts when you saw this video of an RCMP officer using the door of a police pickup truck to run this man down?

KENNY BELL: You know, it's unbelievable. You know, you can imagine treating anyone like that.

MG: How have people in your community reacted to this?

KENNY BELL: Everyone's upset. One wants to see, you know, he was hit by a vehicle once, as traumatising as it is. So, you know, I don't think anyone's happy about that.

MG: You're the mayor of Nunavut's largest municipality. How would you describe the relationship between the RCMP and members of your community?

KENNY BELL: Yeah, there's you know, there's generational mistrust here with the RMPD. You know, Inuit were forcefully removed from locations and relocated here by RCMP. And there's a long history. You know, not everybody. I mean, you know, I have a great relationship. But it's you know, it's rocky. And I think the cameras just really start to get everyone to trust each other.

MG: I want to talk about those cameras. But is your sense that there is an a real absence of trust right now between the community and the police?

KENNY BELL: No, not a complete one, but there's definitely a mistrust. There's a lot of, you know, social media complaints about this abuse of authority and, you know, just being outright not responsive. But, you know, but there's still be part of our community, of course. So, you know, there's not complete mistrust, but there is mistrust.

MG: You've been mayor for just, what, 211 days. Have you had to deal with similar incidents in your short time in this office?

KENNY BELL: Now, you know, I mean, this crime that I haven't really got to me, like I don't really get very many complaints personally about misuse. It's always just social media stuff, which I could never verify.

MG: You have called, along with other leaders from none of it, for the RCMP to wear body cameras. What would that do in terms of helping to bridge that gap between police and the community?

KENNY BELL: Yes, this is a start. You know, you hear all kinds of things. But if you had a video to be able to say that did or didn't happen, it holds, you know, the RCMP member accountable and it holds the public accountable. And I think those stories might change sometimes and or they might not become stories because the video is there or it shows real news because the video is there. An officer was wrong.

MG: You talked about the social media things and raise the issue of perhaps not trusting what's on social media, which is, you know, a breeding ground often for misinformation, disinformation, but it also does spread videos that people wouldn't otherwise see. Do you think that that that having the body cameras, the police body cameras, would eliminate that that sense of mistrust in terms of what's spreading on social media?

KENNY BELL: Well, no, I mean, if there is you know, people should video RCMP their interactions. And I just about having the other side from the RCMP's perspective would help situation for the good or the bad.

MG: This incident on Monday is not the first time that police have been asked for a body cameras. What's been the response from the RCMP?

KENNY BELL: That was top cop. She said that they just don't have the money for it. That is not a no. But they just don't have the money for it. That's pretty much the answer from the government as well. There's just no money for it.

MG: This is an incident that's being seen not just across this country, but now around the world. And it's coming at a time, as you know, when people are talking about trust and mistrust of police. What do you want from the federal government in this moment?

KENNY BELL: We need to really examine and do some justice reform across the country. And I think it would be a great start from the government to make that move. Most, if not all policies are, and laws, are just not working today in today's world. And we need to make sure that we change that.

MG: Kenny Bell, good to speak with you. I appreciate it. Thank you.

KENNY BELL: Thank you very much, Matt.

MG: Kenny Bell is the mayor of Iqaluit and the head of the Nunavut Association of Municipalities. He was in Iqaluit. Lori Idlout is a lawyer. She's also in Iqaluit. Lori, good morning to you.

LORI IDLOUT: Yes, good morning.

MG: What did you make of this video of this man being hit by the door of a police truck as it as it approached him?

LORI IDLOUT: I definitely have a lot of questions. I was shocked. Outraged. And I wondered, like what could those circumstances have been? What are the other pieces of the story that we're not being told? So it's definitely let out emotions as shock and outrage.

MG: The RCMP say that they had reports that this man was fighting. He was arrested for public intoxication. But in the video, you see that he's alone. What does it say to you that he was arrested in what is clearly a violent way?

LORI IDLOUT: It really just affirmed for me that some of the stories that we've heard in media about the police and their treatment towards indigenous people, black people, just vulnerable groups, that the measures to protect as vulnerable communities aren't there. Being top two RCMP officers, that it seemed to me that RCMP, when they're being trained and being trained in a way to respect vulnerable communities, that rather than protecting them, that RCMP officers are choosing to behave in enforcement that's damaging our view of them because of the violence that they're allowed to practise in what they say and do to protect the overall community.

MG: You're an Inuk woman? How would you describe the relationship between the RCMP and the Inuit community?

LORI IDLOUT: Just like our mayor said, there is a long history with Inuit and the RCMP, and from the beginning their relationship was a fractured one. It was not a relationship. It was one of suppression, oppression. Inuit they were indeed forced into settlement by RCMP. There's been reports of [unintelligible] in the past, so there is definitely not just a lack of truck trust, but there is also fear that we have against the RCMP. We fear them because of harm. We know we can be treated for minor- my name given to whatever, so it's definitely there is more a sense of distrust, a fear to what they're are.

MG: And do people grow up with that fear? Is that something that young people are aware of when they're in the community?

LORI IDLOUT: I definitely remember fearing the RCMP like I had my own experiences as a child. I remember having fear because of the inter-generational impacts of colonialism of residential school. Having to be taken by the RCMP away from my mom and having to be like just the very act of taking, of being away from my mom, it was very, it was quite damaging for a very long time. But. I also had positive experiences because it was also the RCMP included parts of my life that returned me to my mom. So there is both a difficult and kind of a forgiving story that I can have with the RCMP. But I tend to want to stand with my fellow indigenous people and vulnerable peoples and say that we need better ways to make sure that we're being protected by these people that were supposed to be trusting to protect us.

MG: Part of this is often about who is doing the policing. This isn't the first time the questions around how the RCMP have responded to incidents in Nunavut have been raised. David Qamaniq, UK is a member of the legislature there. He's from Pond Inlet. His son was shot and killed by police in 2017. Have a listen to David Qamaniq.

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My son was distraught. His sister had committed suicide one year before. He wanted to commit suicide. My wife and I called the RCMP thinking that they would help him save his life. Instead, they shot him. The RCMP said that he thought my son was going to shoot him, so he shot him. I think it would have helped a lot - they had the RCMP officer trying to de-escalate the situation. If they had an Inuk special constables working for the RCMP, things may have been different.

MG: Edlout, what are the differences that an Inuk officer might have made in situations like these?

LORI IDLOUT: Well. I am pretty sure that David's son would have known the Inuk officer. That they have a common history, common experiences and to be able to speak with him in Inuktitut I think that would have been a huge difference. That would have been, that would have given us a positive outcome, but the Inuk special constable would have, I think, shown the respect and the sensitivity that David's son would have needed at the time of the incident.

MG: Just before I let you go in 2019, the CBC reported that of the 131 RCMP members in Nunavut, just three are Inuit. Why has it been so difficult for the force to hire and retain Inuk officers?

LORI IDLOUT: Like I mentioned a bit earlier Inuit's relationship with the RCMP has not been an easy one. There's been a lot of trauma that the RCMP have given exposure to and there has not been measures to reconcile the trauma that was created by these treatments. So a huge part of that is that. When it's when you can't trust RCMP, when you fear the RCMP, your question, I think as a regular human being, would you enter an RCMP if you can't trust them, if you fear them so. There haven't been many enough measures to make to promote the need for and and what the RCMP would do to have Inuit in law enforcement.

MG: Lori Idlout I appreciate your time this morning. Thank you very much.

LORI IDLOUT: [Indistinct speech]

MG: Lori Idlout is an Inuk lawyer based in Iqaluit. The strained relationship between police and indigenous communities extends far beyond Nunavut. Yesterday, an indigenous woman was shot and killed by police in Edmonstone, New Brunswick, during a wellness cheque. The Edmonstone police have asked an independent agency to investigate. In Winnipeg, three indigenous people have been killed by police this spring. Myra Tait is a member of the Berens River First Nation, a lawyer and an instructor at the University of Winnipeg. Myra, good morning to you.

MYRA TAIT: Good morning.

MG: Based on what we're hearing from the north, but also what I was reading in this in the introduction about what's been happening in New Brunswick and in Winnipeg, how would you characterise the relationship between police and indigenous and First Nations communities in this country?

MYRA TAIT: Well, I think Mayor Bell really nailed it when he said that the relationship with police and indigenous people in particular, but I think it's broader than that, is really about an abuse of power. And that, I think, characterises the relationship of Canada, not only with indigenous people, but immigrant people, people of colour. Frankly, this country was established on that abuse of power. And more than 150 years later, we're still talking about the same issues. We're still talking about issues of racism and sexism and ageism. And those issues have not gone away.

MG: Tell me what you see in Winnipeg. Indigenous people represent something like 11 percent of the population of Winnipeg, but account for nearly two thirds of the people who died or were injured during an interaction with police between 2000 and 2017. What do those numbers tell you?

MYRA TAIT: Well, the number is in in Manitoba in general are horrific. So there are studies that have come out as recently as two days ago that 90 percent of children in care are indigenous and that that taking children into care becomes a pipeline into prison. So children who are in care end up in conflict with the law, which is what we're seeing day after day after day, and then they end up in jail. We know that indigenous people in Manitoba will live 11 years less than all other Manitoban. We know that there are many communities under boil water advisories. We know that state of Aboriginal lives in Manitoba, in Winnipeg is being a population with the highest urban Aboriginal population in Canada. It's dismal. And so the police brutality that we're seeing here, I think really is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of this relationship that has not work since Confederation.

MG: Could that change? Laurie Outlet was talking about who is in the policing service and who's in the force itself. Would that change if you changed the complexion of the police force and had more people from Indigenous and First Nations communities as part of that force?

MYRA TAIT: Well, what we're really talking about is rejigging the power structure, the power dynamics of the state with indigenous people and people of colour, right? So, yes, having more indigenous police officers may help, but it's more important to understand that we are sovereign nations and that we have a way of managing our own matters. Putting a gun in the hand of an Inuk police officer is not necessarily going to change that dynamic. When we begin to deal with the structural racism and the systemic racism at a policy level at all, at a legal level. Then we have some potential for change.

MG: In the last couple of minutes that we have, we spoke at the beginning of the week as these protests were really taking fire here in Canada and also in the United States, protests around police relationships with black communities. Is this a moment for change? Do you think you see the possibility for change coming out of this conversation around policing? Not again, just in black communities, but also in indigenous communities?

MYRA TAIT: I do. I think we are in a at a precipice here for a major change. And the change that I see is not that indigenous people are speaking up. We've been speaking up for a long, long time. It's not that the Black Lives Matter campaign is finally being heard by the common Canadians. They've been speaking up for a long, long time. I think the difference is that those people who have said things as in Green Party leadership, hopeful Glenn Murray has said he you know, he said, I think we're past sexism and ageism and racism, and that's simply not true. We're holding these people accountable now for their ignorance. And I think that's why we have a chance of change. If they all start talking, then the people who have something to say about equity and about fairness and about justice, their voices can be heard.

MG: And you see optimism in that moment.

MYRA TAIT: I do. I do. Because this abuse of power is finally being called out.

MG: Mara Tait, it's great to speak with you again. I appreciate it. Thank you.

MYRA TAIT: You're welcome, Matt.

MG: Myra Tait, indigenous lawyer based in Winnipeg, also co-editor of the book Surviving Canada: Indigenous Peoples Celebrate 150 Years of Betrayal. We did reach out to the RCMP for comment. They emailed this statement that reads in part, The RCMP takes the conduct of our officers seriously and want to assure the public we have confidence in the process of an external investigation to determine the circumstances of the event and whether criminal charges should be sworn against the officer. The CBC News is next. And then addressing Canada's quest for a seat on the U.N. Security Council. It's a question that has cost millions of dollars. We'll hear the pitch from Canada's man, the U.N. coming up. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio One.

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Marc-Andre Blanchard on Canada’s bid for a security council seat

Guests: Marc-Andre Blanchard

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, how Africa is tackling the coronavirus. But first, Canada's push for a spot on the U.N. Security Council.

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So today, I'm in New York to formally announce our intention to return to the U.N. Security Council table.

MG: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau in 2016, announcing his plan to win a seat on the U.N. Security Council. This is something the former conservative government also tried but failed to get. And with a vote looming and millions of dollars spent, time is running out on Canada's campaign for a coveted spot at that table. Marc-Andre Blanchard is the permanent representative for Canada to the United Nations, joins me from New York City. Ambassador, good morning.

MARC-ANDRE BLANCHARD: Good morning, Matt. So happy to be with you.

MG: Glad to have you. As the Prime Minister made that announcement four years ago, we heard that wanting to win this seat on the Security Council. Why is this seat important?

MARC-ANDRE BLANCHARD: Well, the Security Council is the most important multilateral table in the world. And Canada, it's always and you know them, the best functioning of the multilateral world is in the best interest of Canada. This is how we've thrived in the last 75 years. The Security Council with all of its imperfections. This is the place where all of the conflicts of the world are discussed. This is where all of the problems of the world are put. And when you're there, you're more relevant. And when you're more relevant, you have more influence. And then when you have more influence, actually, that represents. It's really our responsibility to the world to do this. But it's also in the interest of Canadians, because when you're more relevant, you have more important things for Canada, for Canadians in Canada and abroad. So it is a very important table. It's not perfect, but it plays a very central role. It is the only table in the world where you can authorise the use of force and the use of sanctions.

MG: The impression from many people is that this will be an uphill battle that Canada is trailing both Ireland and Norway for that seat. What have you been doing to try and change that?

MARC-ANDRE BLANCHARD: Well, we've been working very hard, and I can tell you the everybody will all of the analysis of this race will tell you it's a very competitive three way race and it's too close to call. So we've worked for me, the campaign about the Security Council seat. As the Prime Minister has always said, you know, this is just, it's a mean, it's not an end in itself. It's Canada's influence in the world and making a significant contribution. What we've been doing is the best campaign for Canada to me and my men has always been I've been saying let Canada be Canada in the world. And this is always we have campaign.

MG: Well, I guess there are our questions, though, just about that contribution that Canada's making in the rest of the world. Both Ireland and Norway have people believe, perhaps a more solid reputation at the U.N. and great record on UN development assistance and peacekeeping records that are better than Canada's.

MARC-ANDRE BLANCHARD: Well, I think, for example, I disagree with that assessment. I think, for example, on peacekeeping, the role of Canada in peacekeeping is not the traditional role of of supplying a large contingent to the peacekeeping operation. It's about how do the contributions of Canada to peacekeeping. Canada's playing a leadership role at the U.N. on peacekeeping. We are the one that is chairing the most important committee on peacekeeping at the U.N., which deals with the operations of peacekeeping. We're the ninth largest contributors to the fund of peacekeeping. There's a there was a problem with child soldier. Canada at the Vancouver conference two years ago brought the world together with [unintelligible] and we developed principles to deal with child soldier. More than 100 countries have signed on these principles. There's an issue in peacekeeping in bringing woman to peacekeeping because we know that when woman are involved in the resolution of conflict, it's actually better and the peace last longer. So what we did was working on the root cause of why women were not more involved. So we've developed the NC initiative has been working. We've been working with Ghana and synagogues and Zambia to actually look at whether the barriers, advantages of women in police forces and in military forces. And, you know, it has a huge impact so far in the numbers of women in peacekeeping are now going up.

MG: Do the general numbers add up, though? In April of 93, there were something like 33 hundred Canadian peacekeepers deployed on U.N. missions. In April, there were 35 Canadian military men.

MARC-ANDRE BLANCHARD: Well, it's not about forces. I've just said it's about impact. And whether are we equipping the peacekeeping missions with the right tools, with the right capacity building, with the right threatening. And that's what Canada has been focussing on. You know, I met the other day the undersecretary general for peacekeeping. He said the what I would like from Canada now is telemedicine. I need to have access to medical forces in Canada that will actually provide that the distance medical answers. And this is a different role for Canada. This is not about, you know, the African Union as a policy that all conflicts in Africa should be equipped with, that only African forces should be in African conflicts. This is a policy of the African Union. The world has changed. And the way that we do peacekeeping has changed. And the contribution of peace of Canada to peacekeeping is about strategic leadership. It's about training. It's about the strategic deployment. It's about top leadership. This is what it is and this is what Canada's providing at the moment and the world is really recognising Canada as a leader in peacekeeping.

MG: Last week, Dick Fadden, the former national security adviser to the prime minister, was on this programme. He said that the decision not to release the CFO of Huawei Meng Wanzhou, would create further damage to relations between Canada and China and said that damage could involve an active campaign by China to thwart our efforts to win a U.N. Security Council seat. Have you seen evidence of that campaign?

MARC-ANDRE BLANCHARD: I have not seen any evidence of that campaign, and I can tell you that, you know, the 192 countries of the world that will have to make a decisions with Canada in 10 days on this election, there is 192 different reasons why they will or not will or not vote for Canada.

MG: But China has enormous influence with many of those countries, countries that Canada has been lobbying, including nations in Africa.

MARC-ANDRE BLANCHARD: Well, you know, as I said, the countries have many reasons to elect one country or another to the Security Council. They also recognise that they have multiple interests in the world and nobody sees the world as just that in their relationship with the bilateral relationship. I can tell you that countries look at the kind, you know, we'll decide on based on, yes, the foreign policy of the country involved. They will decide on the leadership; who is the leader of that country. That's very important. Our best guard for Canada at the moment is the leadership of Justin Trudeau on economic security in this crisis of the pandemic. It is recognised globally. The other issue is they will look at always the bilateral relationship. How is the policy of the country seeking a seat on the regional relationship. It is multifactorial and it is not one issue. And actually, Canada is doing very well. You know, we are cautiously optimistic. This has been a very competitive race. You have three countries that are very well respected in the world, that are three great friends, and that do a lot together and we'll see in 10 days. We only know in 10 days what the results will be.

MG: Just in the last minute or so that we have. The prime minister, as you know, has placed a lot of prestige and pride and effort on winning this seat, cost a lot of money as well, and travelling around to win those votes. How damaging would it be to Canada's image and to that of the prime minister if we don't win?

MARC-ANDRE BLANCHARD: So I just wanted to say about the efforts. I think the efforts made to win the seat have been very reasonable. I think so far, actually, we are we under the budget spent in 2010 by the conservative government when they lost the seat. So we've done it in a very reasonable way and with a focus on 'Let Canada be Canada'. And this was not about changing the way we act in the world. And what we've been doing, Canada, and they say that to everyone, win or lose this seat, this will have been a very good initiative for Canada because that has allowed us to really look at each of the 192 bilateral relationship we have. And it has also made us look at where our presence in some region. We found out through this exercise that, you know, we wanted to be more present in some reasons in regions. We wanted to do more things there. We do. And that has been so useful for our diplomacy, so useful for our country. And it's creating opportunities for Canadians in a very, very significant way. And I'm very hopeful. You know, Canada, I always seen I'm in the U.N. I represent the best country of the world. It's a huge privilege. And I'm very hopeful that we will win the trust of the member states of the UN.

MG: We'll see whether that work has paid off. Marc-Andre Blackhearts, good to speak with you. Thank you.

MARC-ANDRE BLANCHARD: Thank you very much.

MG: Marc-Andre Blanchard is Canada's permanent representative to the United Nations.

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Lessons from Ebola have helped keep COVID-19 cases low in Africa, says top public health official

Guests: Dr. Ahmed Ogwell Ouma

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio one. I'm Matt Galloway. It's been about three months since the pandemic was officially declared. COVID-19 has swept around the world, hitting some places much harder than others. The spread of the virus in Africa is a bit of an enigma for public health officials. South Africa has one of the continent's highest rates of infection, causing fear amongst these supermarket employees in Cape Town.

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VOICE 1: We want them to screen us, or test us, or anything that they can do.

VOICE 2: We have kids at home. I have had a five-months old baby, my granddaughter, and the mother is very scared.

MG: That's in South Africa. And despite relatively few cases in Madagascar, that country has been under lockdown for weeks and the shopkeeper is feeling the strain.

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VOICE 1: The people are struggling. They had no more money. It's not easy because people have their rent to pay. Many of them have lost their jobs.

VOICE 2: This situation doesn't bother our rulers, but it hurts the poor.

MG: Overall, the continent has seen a slower rate of infection and deaths than other parts of the world, and some credit goes to the continent's experience with previous viruses like Ebola. People say that there are success stories in Africa, stories that could teach those of us elsewhere a thing or two. Dr. Ahmed Ogwell Ouma is the deputy director of the Africa Centres for Disease Control, and he is in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. Doctor. Good morning.

AHMED OGWELL OUMA: Good morning to you. It's afternoon for us here and it is a pleasure to be here.

MG: How would you characterise the spread of this virus across the continent right now?

AHMED OGWELL OUMA: Right now, the picture is quite mixed. There are certain countries where the spread has been quite rapid from the moment that the first cases were introduced by travellers. And there are parts of the continent where it has been relatively calm. Overall, we are seeing that for the last three or so weeks, the numbers have been going up much faster. And we, as Africa's CDC and Africa Union are doing everything we can to support our countries on the continent, to be better prepared and to keep the numbers low.

MG: In the early days of this pandemic, we had conversations on this programme with people like Stephen Lewis and others who were very concerned about the possibility that if the virus were to take hold on the continent, that it could be devastating. Why hasn't it spread further and faster until now? What's been done to keep it in check?

AHMED OGWELL OUMA: These are lessons that we've learnt from other previous outbreaks of other types of diseases. In 2014, 2016, during the Ebola virus outbreak in West Africa, it was very clear to the Africa Union leadership that the continent needed its own public health agency. And so Africa CDC was set up. So there's a lot of coordination going on, not just within the health sector, but also with other sectors, finance, transport, for example. Secondly is we learnt during all the previous outbreaks that starting early is the key to keeping the numbers low. As soon as it was recognised that the virus was spreading outside of China, in January, we instituted our incidence management system. So we started early, and governments across Africa also started to take public health measures seriously very early in the outbreak.

MG: What we have learned as this virus has spread is that you only know what you know and the way that you find out how widespread the virus is is through testing. And testing, testing, testing, as we hear from the WHO, is going to be the way out of this. How robust is the testing across Africa,.

AHMED OGWELL OUMA: Across Africa, we are not at the level that we want because right now, as of this morning, we have tested roughly 2.4 million. But Africa is a continent of 1.3 billion. To reach one per cent, we are still quite some way off in terms of testing. But I must emphasise here that whatever testing is being done is giving us an indication of what the picture is in the community. Secondly, as I asked the CDC, we are actually ruled out to be a partnership to accelerate COVID-19 testing. We call it PACT, and this is intending to test 10 million Africans over the next 24 weeks.

MG: But just to be clear, you're not concerned that that low number of testing doesn't indicate that perhaps this good news story isn't as good as people might want to believe?

AHMED OGWELL OUMA: The good news story is a good news story, and we are advocating for increased testing so that we are better prepared having understood the numbers. But as it stands to be, the testing protocol that countries are following and our guidance are effective, and we know they are working and we know that whatever precautions we are seeing in the population is pretty much a good picture. It may not be totally accurate, but it is a good picture of what to expect.

MG: There has been a global race for personal protective equipment, things like ventilators as well. How have countries on the continent fared in that? Have they been able to get the supplies that they need?

AHMED OGWELL OUMA: The supply chain for all the different types of equipment and consumables that we need to address COVID-19 had been severely disrupted because China is one of the bigger manufacturers of these items. And as Africa's CDC, what we've been doing is sourcing for the different types of equipment and supplies that we need and then distributing those to the countries. We are not at the level that we are comfortable, but we are making sure that we do not run out of those supplies on the continent.

MG: We've also heard stories around the world of people suddenly developing technology that perhaps they didn't know they had the capacity to develop. There were a group of students at Kenyatta University who came up with a prototype for a ventilator that could be made locally. One of those students spoke on Kenyan TV. Listen to Fidel Makatia.

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This machine we made is able to regulate the percentage of oxygen that goes to the patient. This one is very portable. You can plug even a battery if you don't have level power. Just plug a battery into drum and you can interface with this on a screen. So this one as long as you have a TV monitor, you can just plug it in using a cable so that one makes ours like a more flexible, portable.

MG: Dr. Ouma, these students say that they'd be able to make something like 50 of these ventilators per week. Are you seeing a lot of this sort of innovation across parts of Africa?

AHMED OGWELL OUMA: Across the whole of Africa there's a lot of innovation that is going on, and we are encouraging Africans within the continent to continue expanding their innovative activities so that we can be able to have home grown solutions. And we are not only seeing it in heavy equipment that are required for the critically ill patients. We are seeing it in tests — Senegal, Morocco, Kenya, South Africa are coming up with home grown tests that are a little bit a lot cheaper than what is in the markets. What we are insisting on is that we must get it to be a good quality so that it can be able to do the work that it's supposed to do.

MG: You hinted at this about the lessons of Ebola. One of the things that that people learned in that fight was around the importance of contact tracing — that if somebody were to be infected, you need to figure out who they've been around and where that could spread through their immediate contacts. What have you learned in that fight about the importance of contact tracing in this pandemic?

AHMED OGWELL OUMA: Just like in during the Ebola time, there is absolutely no replacement for good contact tracing. We are going to need to support countries to help one million community health workers to be distributed across the continent into the rural communities, particularly, and informal settlements in urban centres, so that they can take the message of what COVID-19 is, what you need to do to protect yourself and the availability of testing for those who may be exposed and what kind of symptoms and signs they need to look out for.

MG: What are those community health workers up against? We've spoken with health workers about treating Ebola, particularly in some rural communities. And they talked about the mistrust of Western medicine on parts of the continent — the importance of local traditions — but also that stigma that you just mentioned. Are you seeing similar issues with COVID-19 in terms of trying to win the trust of people?

AHMED OGWELL OUMA: Absolutely. In fact, one of the biggest challenges we are having is that misinformation and fake news. And for this, we have a rumour tracking system that is picking up rumours in Africa. We provide the correct information to governments and then the governments can be able to spread the correct information to the population. Now, this goes beyond just rumours. It goes into how we have engaged with public health over the last many decades, where it has been seen as something that is brought from outside. And that kind of mistrust in some communities, it has become very difficult to get community health workers to make inroads. But we are working with community leaders, we are working with our religious leaders, we are working with influencers within the community to be able to provide the correct information and to build trust and build confidence.

MG: That could start right at the top. The president of Madagascar is endorsing some sort of herbal drink as a cure for COVID-19. If it's the president of a country that is endorsing something like that, what does that say about the struggle that you have against misinformation, disinformation?

AHMED OGWELL OUMA: I think we need to be clear here that what we are doing with the countries like Madagascar, Gabon and elsewhere. Kenya. All have come up with certain local community-based possible products, is that we are encouraging them to share with us the data they have. We are encouraging them to provide us with actual products so that we can be able to to analyse it properly. And we are involving many centres within Africa to look at those products. Anything that is proposed to have the possibility of a cure or a prevention benefit, we ground it in science, and when we have the results, we'll be able to share. One thing I must add is that it is absolutely possible for a cure for any disease, any illness to come from Africa. And we know that what is going to prove or disprove the quality and effectiveness of any product is going to be science.

MG: Just before I let you go, how concerned are you about when a vaccine is developed, if a vaccine is developed, that this rush to get people's hands on the vaccine from all around the world could leave countries in Africa behind?

AHMED OGWELL OUMA: This is a concern that we raised from the moment that we started looking for a vaccine, that it needs to be an equitable process. And we have put in place systems that are going to ensure that any vaccine that is being tested in Africa, we have an equitable share when the production at commercial levels begin. Apart from that, we are actually negotiating with some of the testing institutions so that we can be able to have local production happening within Africa as well.

MG: There's a real optimism around how you talk about the virus on the continent and that I think people might be surprised to hear that, given the doomsday concerns that we heard early on in this pandemic about what could happen if the virus really took hold in countries around Africa.

AHMED OGWELL OUMA: You know, we were watching, quite amused there, at all the numbers that were being shared, how people would be dying in the streets in Africa. But I'm glad that Africa is proving those naysayers wrong. We have put in place, with the little resources that we have, mechanisms that are actually protecting our citizens from getting infected. We are not where we would like to be, but we have to do our best foot forward. And we expect that the numbers are not going to be exploding over the next months. We know there will be increased. There's no doubt about that. But they will not be exploding. And we expect that the critically ill numbers are going to be manageable. And we expect that those who are going to unfortunately die from this particular virus, the numbers will not be at the level that had been predicted.

MG: Doctor, I appreciate your time this morning. You have a lot on your plate, but it's fascinating to hear what has gone right and perhaps what other parts of the world could learn from what you have accomplished on the continent. Thank you for your time.

AHMED OGWELL OUMA: It's our pleasure to share our story and. Thank you and good morning.

MG: Dr. Ahmed Ogwell Ouma is the deputy director of the Africa Centres for Disease Control. He was in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. Coming up in 90 seconds, India's star singer Sona Mohapatra is not interested. Thank you very much. And playing along with a sexist music industry. After the break, why Sona won't shut up. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio one. Stay with us.

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Sona Mohapatra’s boundary-pushing career

Guests: Sona Muhapatra, Deepti Gupta

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Every [indistinct speech] would like to believe that she wore a white robe. Sad but [unintelligible] within the domestic confines of her house. And just sang [indistinct speech]. Which is a beautiful [indistinct speech]. But you know what? She was a free, born, empowered woman. She believed in expressing herself. And society is very comfortable with these domesticated figures of women. The truth is, she was a rebel. Yes to more rebellions within all of us, men and women, we should be expressing ourselves.

[Cheers]

MG: That is Sona Mohapatra doing something that seems almost unimaginable now, performing before a giant crowd of fans at a concert in her home country of India, Sona is known for her voice, which she uses not only to create beautiful music, but also to speak up, as you heard, for the rights of women. And that voice has made her both a star and a lightning rod. She's now the subject of a new documentary. It's called Shut Up Sona, and screening as part of the Hot Docs film festival that's taking place on line this year. Sona Mohapatra and the film's director, Deepti Gupta, joins me now from Mumbai. Hello to you both.

DEEPTI GUPTA: Hi. Namaste.

SONA MOHAPATRA: Hi.

SONA MOHAPATRA: That it's a pleasant surprise.

MG: Well, it's so nice we see you in that clip and you're performing in front of this huge crowd. Do you miss performing in front of people now?

SONA MOHAPATRA: Oh, that is what I miss the most. But I think this is a situation around the world, and I think we'll get back to it. This field the other way, because your music has to reach out. And I have been performing online in different ways. So I am touch with my audience, yet. Thanks for technology and thanks for technology for you having this film online, even in Hot Docs or practising gratitude everyday.

MG: Deepti, tell me why you wanted to make a documentary about Sona.

DEEPTI GUPTA: Well the documentary kind of came from a friendship that's lasted for a decade and a half and [unintelligible]. We come from, we both feel similarly about many, many issues that we've both been through. A very similar story in both our professions. So it kind of started out as a celebration of wanting to celebrate music and wanting to experience the history and mythology and the music of India through Sona. But very soon it turned into a story that I think both of us was, it was being told through both of us because it was a much more important story to tell of which so not become the best flag better that I could find in a way, because she she protests about everything that she feels is not fair. It's louder than anyone else's protest. And she's completely, she just cannot back down.

MG: Tell me about the title, Sona. The film is called Shut Up, Sona. How often are you told that?

SONA MOHAPATRA: Very often. And online, it's nowadays very visible for the world to see how often women like me are asked to shut up, you know, stick to music or stick to being pretty or stick to the more convenient options that are available. Because I feel I've heard a journey, which has been - Well, there is a bird singing in the background.

MG: I could hear that.

SONA MOHAPATRA: Yes, that's really a loud cuckoo out there. I think they should just sing instead of talking this much. You know, the cuckoo reminds me that's my job. But the word reminds me that I should stick to my job. But I also think the world has given me a lot of love because even in my country, it's such a young country. Demographically, we have you know, I think 60 percent of our country is very young. They are the ones whose, you know, encourage me and motivate me to be the way I am. Not to say that that isn't a huge faction, which is literally after my blood. I find myself in police stations very often because I'm given [unintelligible] threats and acid attack threats. And the threat of violence is very real and it's very extreme.

MG: What is it that you say that upsets people?

SONA MOHAPATRA: I don't stick to just being pretty and, you know, single about romance and love and heartbreak. As an artist, I connect the dots because we've had some very, very amusing other artists across the centuries in India. And I follow those artists even from around the world who have chosen not to just create things of beauty, but want to leave behind, you know, making a greater impact and making people think differently. They walk their talk in very different ways. So that affects a larger of popular culture change. I mean, I don't know the right words, but I always been inspired by those artists in India. There was a [unintelligible] by who was my biggest driving force 400 years ago in a land where even now a place like it I just had, which is one of the greatest draws for tourists. You know, it's a beautiful line of music and culture and architecture. It's really glorious in its heritage, but also where are supposed to cover their heads. Even till now, they're supposed to reveal themselves in large parts of that particular part of India. But [unintelligible] was born in the royal family. They choose to sing, dance, defy all the norms of culture, was excited and talked about lot of the social evils in a very subversive through her music. So she was like the true rebel rock star, you know, 400 years ago and ready for people. You know, we don't celebrate women who are single song writer artists often enough in art history. And that's also from what I gather in the last few years, even in the West. And it's a common story. And I found a lot of resonance in even how things are for me right now. To be a woman artist, you have to be a certain way. You either objectify yourself, you know, just be pretty. Don't talk too much. Do not take a very hard stance. You know, just appeal to everybody and then you will succeed. But that's not what I want to do. I want to go beyond being this mainstream success that I've found. And I just think the film was a means of, you know, in fact, it was made at a time when I reached out to Deepti, saying that Deepti, all the doors are shutting on me. Everything seems to be choking me, nobody wants me to sing in this industry. They want me to shut up.

MG: Deepti told me a bit about that, about that moment and how unusual it is for women artists in India to speak up in the way that Sona does, because she does have a voice that is to her point. I mean, it it's a powerful voice. It's a voice that gets a lot of attention. Is that uncommon in India right now?

DEEPTI GUPTA: Oh, she's absolutely unique in that regard, actually. I heard what she said about me dying or Leventhal's expeditions that I completely share with her. But what she also does is that she's refuses to believe in this patriarchal system around us. She refuses to believe in the South Star system of this whole feudal rate either the film industry works or the music industry works. And there are often people who kind of transgress lines, either with women or just as human beings, and they're big stars. She calls them out usually on her own pages. And overnight it becomes a media rage across the country. So that's actually why she's open door to shut up, because people keep telling her, you have such a great voice, like you just keep singing. In fact, the last time we got it was after that you nailed the film. And I thought, I still have one and a half hour of a film like this. There's someone sitting in the audience standing up. But don't you think you speak too much about social issues? Don't you think you should just sing? And people just looked at each other and laughed, you know, because it doesn't end. The thing just keeps playing itself out over and over again.

MG: So now I want to ask you about one particular song that you recorded that caused all sorts of controversy. Let's listen first to a little bit of Tony Surat.

SOUNDCLIP

[Song]

MG: Sona what was it about this recording that made people so angry?

SONA MOHAPATRA: This is actually the poetry of ancient poetry. It's Fianna Kalam, which is old or ancient poetry from an Islamic sect. The Sufi music of course, the world is very familiar with Sufi music. And in this case I jaws to reinterpret this Kalam and this with this very modern landscape thing that's been rented for The Current youth. I did a community project where I literally asked my fans to tell me, well, how do you want me to dress up with this music video? Give me your ideas. And I would choose four of the most interesting looks. But, you know, there was this conservative dissection which went bananas. They said you were committing blasphemy because you've taken ancient poetry and, you know, it has a religious sanctity to it. And you can not modernise something that does it. And as a woman, you should not just be singing it because women are not supposed to sing Sufi Kalams. So I got this legal notice threatening me. And, you know, when there is this is a religious anger things become scary in India and also in many parts. So my family was very worried and this threatening mail started coming. And your misguiding the youth. You're wearing [unintelligible] clothes. You're wearing sleeveless dress, which is like, you know, showing my arms was literally something which was offending them. And then call me as a serial will offender, somebody who does it so often, that I apparently purposefully trying to mislead the youth by showing them this [unintelligible] side, do some thing so pure and sacred. And, you know, I thought it was a- I mean, I was also scared. I felt the vibe, but I decided to take it head on and make it on national debate on television. And, you know, put light to the fact and make those questions come up in the public domain saying, why shouldn't women be allowed to sing? It's an archaic, idiotic, you know, it's dogma. We need to break this dogma and let's talk about it. And who are these conservatives who think women should not sing in public or should not wear a certain set of clothes? Who are you to stop us? So, I mean, these are very basic questions are very important to bring it out in the public domain because nobody wants to talk about these basic things in the public space when it comes to a religious conservative body threatening you. Because nobody wants to take a chance. But, you know, it ultimately did end up veil, as I see it, because everything became like a huge thing and it blew up. And finally, you know, these guys backed off because there was nothing much they could do. And I think we are living in better times where why a lot of people cannot get themselves to question. When you do, it's not always a sad ending.

MG: But the threats are very serious. And I mean, even Sona's husband says that he wants her to turn down some of the opportunities to speak about this and tone down some of her comments as well. Did you ever as a friend, did you ever say maybe you shouldn't be as confrontational and as outspoken as you are?

DEEPTI GUPTA: See, as a documentarian, I think there was a little bit of being torn apart as a friend and as a film maker. But most of the time, the filmmaker has to be first. If you know that there is a point in the film when mentioned to the camera that I know you tell me not to be like this is not to be brazen that people. So in a way that is also an indication that I am also a part of that gang, which is often telling her to shut up at times. And yet I'm a fan. But these are the negotiations that we are having with our own people. But at the same time, I feel her decisions are hers. And I completely respect them. And I feel that it's very, very important to stand for what she does because someone has to scream out of the rooftops. The women's movement would never have happened. We would never have got voice if there weren't women like this. So I do feel for her. But I think that those artists that she's taking are very, very, very important also. And she's a warrior. And one has to be proud of that.

MG: Tell me and I want to ask Sona about this, but Deepti, tell me about this incredible scene in your film when you go to visit the Sufi shrine in Delhi. Tell me about the place.

DEEPTI GUPTA: That place is the Hazrat Nizamuddin Dargah who spends a lot of time with his his who he thought was his guru, Hazrat Nizamuddin. So the song that you just played has been written by Khusrau.

SONA MOHAPATRA: I mean, biggest artist, one of the biggest artist, 800 years ago. Yes.

DEEPTI GUPTA: Yes. In fact, when I use the he's also responsible for a lot of completely new music forms that attributed to him and the musical instruments and all kinds of things.

SONA MOHAPATRA: He's a linguist. He made sure that he understood that India had so many languages and he had to have a common language for us to come together. So he's done so much in terms of nation building and he was also an artist for hire. So he was also a very successful rich. He was not just somebody who was, you know, sitting on another tree and singing and writing poetry. He was absolutely one of the superstar artists saw a very unique place in history. Amir Khusrau.

MG: This shrine is a place. I mean, obviously celebrating his life and his legacy. But it's also a place that women are not allowed. Right.

SONA MOHAPATRA: He's buried there. And next to his guru. But the women are not allowed in what do you call the site?

DEEPTI GUPTA: Sanctorum. Of any Sufi shrine, actually.

SONA MOHAPATRA: You're allowed to come on board on around it, but you can't get into the actual space. Secondly, more importantly for me, not as an artist, what I found appalling is it's one of those liberal sects of Islam that music is celebrated. It has contributed so much through the arts and on the world. So they have a lot of musical performances inside the Dargah, which is such a heady thing every Tuesday, all night. You know, the biggest of our discussion performed there. But for 800 years, women has never- Women are not supposed to perform is what their belief is. Because, I mean, as he explains, and even amongst the most amazing people we met, the custodians of the Dargah that we met, I still feel have left behind such a beautiful energy within me, because they are so dignified, they are scholarly, they have the deepest, the most beautiful language in which they speak. And a lovely grace around them. But then they have this deep rooted dogma. They blindly believe that more women are not supposed to perform your. It's the tradition. We can break it.

MG: And so and so you go in the face of that tradition not only to visit, but then you sit down to start singing.

SONA MOHAPATRA: I didn't do it with any focus on intent, but be honest, you know, and Deepti is very, very smart. I would say, like Deepti also shoots. Fantastic. I might not as a cinematographer, and she has this beautiful way of looking into it. She's quiet. She's very different from me. And she I, I think. And endured herself to them, to start with. And then I went talking to them and also somehow the film happens in a hurry. But, you know, it was hours and hours of them suddenly, you know, getting easy with me. And in that very moment when I just said that, can I sing a few lines? And that is just deathly silence because even my crew out there had their hearts numb out because you're surrounded your conditioning to thing that you will get lynched or somewhere you come to attack you if you start singing: Crazy Woman, shut up. So that was a look I was getting from their sound engineer because it wasn't planned. We hadn't really, like, strategized that I'll go and start singing that. But, you know, it happened organically. I start singing and then they start singing in [unintelligible]. And then there is this beautiful. And I start crying because they're thinking I'm overwhelmed with the sacred surroundings. I'm actually crying out of relief also, to be honest, I shouldn't reveal this because it's lovely for people to think is a very spiritual catharsis moment. But it wasn't. It was actually this relieving. Oh my God, did I get away with this 800 years nobody has sung in the vicinity of this shrine. And how did I get away with this? This is like big. And just that feeling was, it was like breaking a barrier for women and artists across the world. And it just happened organically. I don't think it was you know, it's not something [unintelligible].

MG: Deepti, did you have your heart in your mouth as she starts to sing?

DEEPTI GUPTA: No. No, I didn't. No, I didn't have my heart in my mouth. But, you know, we I you know this because we're friends and we know each other very deeply. And, you know, you imagine the give me off something that will play out before it actually happens. And, you know, in a documentary scenario of this scheme, you can never predict anything, but sometimes it's much, much deeper and more layered than what you ever imagined. So I think I was moved to tears as well when it was happening because- and so where they. He says, do that even when we sing, sometimes we have fears and eyes. Because in that moment that they had together also as artists, as people whose voice comes from their soul. And that's exactly what they're talking about. They're even using the words to say it. It was absolutely magical, actually.

MG: Sona. We're just about out of time. But you talked about how, you know, there would be other paths for you that you don't need to speak out. And there are a lot of people, including your husband, who tells you, as I mentioned at times, to tone things down a little bit. Why in the face of all of that, why do you keep going? What gives you strength to keep speaking out? Despite the fact that you're facing not just in newspaper stories and stories in the media, but actual threats that take you to the police office because you're worried about, you know, your own safety and threats to your life. What keeps you going in the face of all of that?

SONA MOHAPATRA: That's a difficult question because I don't think I'm, I never operated from my intellect or from any. I have always been a very instinctive, experiential kind of person. And I just feel that there's no other way to be. And this has been from childhood. I was blissfully unaware of my gender for the longest time. I just didn't think that it would ever be a problem or come as an obstacle. And then it started showing up. In my face, I saw my mother holding the shotgun. I mean, I have just woken up knowing that it's-- and it's not just for women's rights. I, you know, I stand for anything which is unfair. And I always speak up. And at a time like in India, you know, being gay was illegal last year. And I would go on my stages and even in the most conservative of areas, talk about how this BS and in a song, which you again heard in Shut Up Sona. It's there in the film is actually a love song. But do we know, you know, Amir Khusrau and Nizamuddin Auliya, a man do a man. And that's blasphemous, to go and see that this Sufiana Kalam is actually a love song, possibly between a man or a man. So I think there's a whole section which counts on me in a sense. They find a way to make their voices heard to me. And I feel honoured with that privilege. I feel honoured with the fact that I'm at a point of time in my country where I can make a change.

MG: Deepti, what you do what do you think we should take from Sona story?

DEEPTI GUPTA: I think there's a very deep understanding here, which is also blunted in the different layers of the film that some women who have a fire have a fire in their belly because the gates have been shut on them too often. It's only that if you have that fire in your belly that you'll be able to kind of exist in this completely in this atmosphere, which makes you feel like it resents you for being a woman. And it's escorted into Indian mythology. And, you know, you'll see politic blurbs by Indian politicians and how they see, you know, how women should be. Like it's the patriarchy and misogyny existing all over. And you have to shine through it. There's no other way.

MG: It's a powerful film. I'm glad that they didn't shut you up, Sona. And I appreciate you both joining Edelman.

SONA MOHAPATRA: Thank you very much.

MG: Thank you so much.

SONA MOHAPATRA: Can I sing two lines?

MG: Yes, please.

SONA MOHAPATRA: [Sings in Indian].

SONA MOHAPATRA: I wanted to end with a happy note.

MG: If we can't go to a concert, we can have our own private concert on the radio. Thank you very much.

DEEPTI GUPTA: Thank you so much, man. It was lovely talking to you.

SONA MOHAPATRA: Thank you so much, Matt.

MG: Shut Up Sona is screening online until the 10th of June as part of the Hot Docs Film Festival. Sona Mohapatra and the film's director, Deepti Gupta, joined me from Mumbai. Let's hear a little bit more from Sona. That little private concert was nice. Here she is. And the song that she mentioned earlier, it's called Piya Se Naina with lyrics by the Sufi poet Amir Khusrau.

SOUNDCLIP

[Song]

MG: Just the Indian pop star, Sona Mohapatra, and a song called Piya Se Naina. That is The Current for today and for this week. Coming up next on your CBC Radio one. It's Q. Tom Powers is the host. Hello, Tom.

TOM POWER: Matt. How are you?

MG: You know, I was thinking it's been a long week. It's been a hard week for a lot of people. And you look in that week for moments of delight and moments of joy and Sona just suddenly deciding at the end of our interview that she wanted to sing to us was one of those moments. It's lovely.

TOM POWER: Nothing better. Nothing better. At least on this show. And people come on the show and they want to sing and they want to perform. You made me sing one time onstage, man. I remember that.

MG: I did. And you were very gracious enough to not say, are you out of your mind? But you actually did. You did a mummers tune.

TOM POWER: Oh my. Matt, give us a few songs. Ready. Go.

MG: Not a chance.

TOM POWER: All right. I do have some. I do have a moment of joy. Want to hear a joke?

MG: Yes, please.

TOM POWER: I went to buy some camouflage pants. I couldn't find any.

MG: [Sighs]

TOM POWER: Because they were hidden, because they were camouflaged. You know, I can't see them.

MG: I know I got it. I was just trying to figure out how to process whether I should laugh or whether it should groan.

TOM POWER: Matt, Brandy is on Q today. Remember Brandy?

MG: Yes. From like way back.

TOM POWER: Yes. You know, The Boy is Mine and Randy and Monica. Brandy made her first record at 15 years old. We're going to talk about a new record, of course. Her new record Chance the Rapper. But we're going to talk about her long career in music. A real icon on the show today.

MG: Big plans for your weekend?

TOM POWER: Going to lay on the couch. I'm going to stand up and get a cup of coffee, then go lie on the couch again.

MG: That's a good routine to repeat that 30 times. I'm not a doctor, but that will work for you. Have a great show, Tom.

TOM POWER: Thanks. Have a great weekend, Matt.

MG: And you, Tom Power, the host of Cue. That's next on your CBC Radio one. My name is Matt Galloway. That's it for The Current for this week. Thanks for listening. Take care of yourself. Have a great weekend. We'll talk to you on Monday.

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