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The AIH Transcript for June 3, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Bad blood. Louisville, Kentucky is in mourning once again this week after police shot and killed a beloved local chef. We reached a city councilman who says given past police conduct, he has trouble believing their account of how David McAttee died.

CH: Trouble in the fields. One migrant worker is dead. Hundreds of others are COVID positive. And an advocate for Ontario's temporary farm says many more are at risk.

CO: Neighbourhood watch. Christian Mbanza was surprised when friends flagged the social media post warning about a black man breaking into a vehicle because the images were of him opening his own car.

CH: High contrast. The U.S. president says he'll use troops to quell protests if necessary, but his defense secretary says that's a bad idea.

CO: Morning glory. Throughout May, a museum director in Germany asked people to wake up early in the newly quiet world and collect the sounds of birds. Now he has thousands of recordings of the dawn chorus from beaks around the globe.

CH: And sheep that mass in the night. Instead of just milling about the meadow, the attack sheep trained by a British farm worker became a ruthless security force, and it behooved any local thieves to avoid being hooved. As It Happens. The Wednesday Edition. Radio that guesses living wool is the best revenge.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Birdsongs from around the world capture 'extraordinary acoustic moment' of pandemic

Death of David McAttee

Guest: David James

CH: After a week and a half of morning protests and police crackdowns, new charges were announced today in the deaths of George Floyd.

KEITH ELLISON: Today, arrest warrants were issued for former Minneapolis police officers J. A. Kueng, Thomas Lane, and Tou Thao. Finally, I'd like to announce that today Attorney Michael Freeman and I filed a complaint the charges of police officer Keung, Lane, and Thao with aiding and abetting murder in the second degree, a felony offense.

CH: Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison talking about three new arrest warrants in the killing of George Floyd, along with an upgraded charge of second degree murder for Derek Chauvin, the fired Minneapolis police officer who knelt on Mr. Floyd's neck for nine minutes until he stopped breathing. Meanwhile, demonstrations continued for a ninth day across the U.S., including in Louisville, Kentucky, where people are also mourning two of their own, Breonna Taylor, who was killed by police in March and David McAttee. Mr. McAttee owned a barbecue spot in west Louisville. He was shot and killed on Monday. Since his death, the city's police chief has been fired and Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear has said state police will be investigating. Police have now released a video of the incident taken from inside Mr. McAttee's establishment. They say he fired first. David James is a counsellor in the Louisville metro area. He knew Mr. McAttee well. We reached him in Louisville.

CO: Councilman James, can you tell us a bit about David McAttee? What was he like?

DAVID JAMES: Well, you know, he was a really really good guy. He loved the community. He would give food away. And it was like the social place to be, was at his spot, you know? And if a meal cost ten dollars and you had been down on your luck and you only had five dollars, he would cook the meal for you instead of saying, you know, just pay five dollars -- he'd say, have the meal for free, you're going to need that five dollars. That's just the kind of guy he was. I mean, everybody knew him. He was always trying to help people and do all that he could to make people's lives better. And, you know, he even fed the police. He was just a really good all-around guy.

CO: Why did Louisville police, the National Guard soldiers, why had they descended on that corner where his establishment, YaYa's BBQ Shack -- why were they at that corner that night?

DJ: I'm still trying to understand that exactly. The police say that they had a call because of the large crowd. But on that particular corner every day of the week, that's where people socialize, but especially on weekends. And normally the police get a call, there are only one or two officers, they just come in, they talk to folks and say, hey, you know, we've got to clear the lot a little bit, can you leave? And they do. It's just a conversation piece. But on this particular day, they decided to come down there with the National Guard, with multi-person vans, with police cars and roll out. And within seconds of being on their feet, start yelling about the curfew and shooting people with pepper ball gun. And that led to everything else. And you know, I don't have words for it. I just...it's just not good.

CO: As far as you can understand, because we know there are a lot of unanswered questions, how do you believe that David McAttee got shot?

DJ: I don't have the answer to that. The video that the police released isn't very clear. And so I still need more. I need more evidence to be able to form the right opinion of why it happened, the way it happened. And I don't have the answer for that.

CO: The police believe that the video they have released, those two videos. And according to them, it shows that David McAttee fired first. What do you make of that?

DJ: I don't know that that happened. I mean, I really don't know that that's actually what happened. I don't believe that it was smart of David to pull a gun out when the police are there in that moment. But at the same time, I don't condone the way that the police approached the situation to begin with. And part of our other problem we have is that we've had so many problems with our police leadership here in our community that there's a legitimacy issue, a credibility issue. And so when you have a police department that has good relations with the community and have not been caught in so many scandals, that whenever the police say something, there's not this skepticism of "I don't know." And so just like on this, there's no body cameras footage from this, even though there's a policy that says wear body cameras. And so we may not even be debating this issue had the body cameras been on or activated. So there's just a whole series of problems that led up to this situation.

CO: You said there was mistrust already and it was just months ago that a young black woman, Breonna Taylor, was shot multiple times in her apartment by police and killed. People in Louisville felt something had seriously gone wrong. How fraught was the relationship between police and the black community even before this latest incident?

DJ: Well, not only the black community, the large portions of the community are very upset about the Breonna Taylor shooting. And so there was already civil unrest and protests going on about the Breonna Taylor situation when the David McAttee situation occurred. And we still don't have the report from the mayor of what happened with that one. About two years ago, the police chief decided to start a process by which he would have having officers do high numbers of traffic stops in West Louisville, which is where predominately African-Americans live, in order to cut down on crime, which was a historically bad idea. And we've had many scandals. And it took forever for the mayor to finally fire the police chief just a couple days ago when he found out that nobody at the scene of the David McAttee's shooting had their body cameras on.

CO: When they entered Breonna Taylor's apartment with a so-called "no knock warrant" they were not wearing body cams then either, it looks like. Is is willfully undone? Do you know what the background of that is? What police are saying about the fact that they're not recording these incidents?

DJ: So the background on the Breonna Taylor shooting on the body cameras was that when the police department instituted the program for body cameras, the narcotics unit did not want to wear body cameras. And the chief said, okay. And which was a bad idea again. And so they weren't required to wear body cameras when conducting search warrants. And so now there is a new policy in place that requires that to take place. But it was not in place at the time of March 13th when that search warrant took place, when Breonna tragically was killed.

CO: You mentioned that the mayor of Louisville had fired the police chief, Steve Conrad, just a month before he was to retire anyway, but fired him. What else should the mayor be doing?

DJ: Here today our public safety committee is going to be voting on a no knock warrant ordinance. We've got another ordinance that we're working on that would bar the administration from being able to hide 911 tapes and body cameras and radio transmissions and call logs under the guise and the open records ordinance of seeing an exemption because it's currently under investigation. So we're trying to make things more transparent and we're trying to add to be an oversight to the police department as we speak.

CO: Councilman James, we'll leave it there. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

DJ: Thank you. Bye bye.

CH: David James is a councilman in Louisville, Kentucky.

[Music]

Mark Esper

CH: Mark Esper says he disagrees with his president. Today, the U.S. Secretary of Defense spoke to the media and contradicted Donald Trump. Mr. Esper says he does not support using active duty troops to deal with protests. He made a statement two days after he accompanied President Trump on his highly controversial walk from the White House to the steps of St. John's Episcopal Church, a walk that took place after members of the National Guard and federal officers forcibly cleared protesters from the area. Here's part of what Defense Secretary Mark Esper said today.

MARK ESPER: I've always believed and continue to believe that the National Guard is best suited for performing domestic support to civil authorities in these situations, in support of local law enforcement. I say this not only is secretary defense, but also as a former soldier and a former member of the National Guard, the option to use active duty forces in a law enforcement role should only be used as a matter of last resort and only in the most urgent and dire of situations. We are not in one of those situations now. I do not support invoking the Insurrection Act. Last night a story came out based on a background interview I did earlier in the day. It focused on the events last Monday evening in Lafayette Park. And I found it to be inaccurate in parts. So I want to state very clearly for all to hear my account of what happened that Monday afternoon. I did know that following the president's remarks on Monday evening that many of us were going to join President Trump and review the damage in Lafayette Park and at St. John's Episcopal Church. What I was not aware of was exactly where we're going when we arrived at the church and what the plans were once we got there. It was also my aim and General Milley's to meet with and thank the members of the National Guard who were on duty that evening in the park. It is something the president likes to do as well. The path we took to and from the church didn't afford us that opportunity. But I was able to spend a considerable amount of time with our guardsmen later that evening as I moved around the city. I also want to address a few other matters that have been raised about that evening. National Guard forces did not fire rubber bullets or tear gas into the crowd, as reported. It wasn't until yesterday afternoon that we determined it was a National Guard helicopter that hovered low over a city block in D.C.. Within an hour or so of learning of this, I directed the secretary of the army to conduct an inquiry to determine what happened and why and report back to me.

CH: U.S. Secretary of Defense Mark Esper speaking to reporters at the Pentagon today. You heard him say that National Guard forces did not use teargas. The Washington Post reports that the U.S. Park Police Force also denies that its officers or anyone assisting them used teargas on Monday to disperse protesters. But what the police say they did use an irritant known as pepper balls is in fact considered by the U.S. government to be tear gas.

[Music]

Regina Profiling

Guest: Christian Mbanza

CH: Going to grab something from the car is about the most mundane, forgettable thing you can do in a day. So when Christian Mbanza did that the other day, he didn't give it a second thought until later when he had to. Some friends got in touch to tell him that someone in his Regina, Saskatchewan neighbourhood had posted a video of him on Facebook with a warning to people to, quote, "lock your doors." So Mr. Mbanza, who is black, decided he needed to speak out about racial profiling. We reached Christian Mbanza in Regina.

CO: Christian, did you have any sense that your movements were being recorded the other day?

CHRISTIAN MBANZA: I honestly had no idea. I was very surprised when I saw the pictures.

CO: It was broad daylight, kind of a residential street, you're at your card getting something, right?

CM: Yes. So I parked my bike on my car and I was using a telephone app to unlock my car. But it wasn't working for whatever reason. So I was just kind of standing in front of my car. And then after a while I decided to reach into my backpack and unlock my car with my keys. And then I got my wallet and a water bottle, I think it was.

CO: And then you cycled away?

CM: And then I cycled away, yeah.

CO: All right. So describe what you saw posted on this Facebook site.

CM: Well, actually, it was a friend of mine who took the screenshots. So she was a part of the Facebook group. It was a private Facebook chat for the community. And she was part of the group and she actually recognized me. So she took the screenshots and sent it to me. And at first I thought it was her who took the pictures until I read what the caption of the post actually said.

CO: Can you tell us what that was?

CM: So the post said "I just watched the whole thing happen. People are carjacking. Lock your doors." Implying that I was stealing. I was robbing from people's cars.

CO: And so how did you react when you saw that you had been described as such while getting something from your car?

CM: First, I was shocked because it was kind of weird to realize what had happened. And then I was embarrassed. And then after talking to some of my friends and having a discussion about race and what's going on in the world today, I decided to bring awareness to it and make a post about it on Facebook.

CO: Why were you embarrassed?

CM: You never really want to see your name associated with stealing or negative news, especially being a teacher and a proud member of the community. You see your name associated with something like that, that's absolutely not true. It's a little embarrassing, especially when your friends and people that you know see the post as well.

CO: And what do you know about the person who recorded the video?

CM: Absolutely nothing.

CO: But he's in the neighbourhood, right? This is your mother's neighbourhood, is that right?

CM: Yes, it's the same street. I'm not sure which house it was, but it was on the same street that my mom lives on.

CO: So the CBC has tried to get in touch with the person who did the recording, but the person has now deleted the Facebook account. So if you could talk to him, what would you want to say?

CM: I think my first thought would have to be to educate them on why that post could have been dangerous, why it was offensive and prejudice, and then educate them on how maybe to better look out for the community.

CO: And the assumption that they made that because you are a black man, that you are breaking into this car, is that the first time you have been racially profiled in Regina?

CM: It's not. And I think that's part of the problem that people of colour struggle with here in Regina, is that this isn't an isolated incident. It wasn't an isolated incident for me. And I don't think it was for many people of colour. But it's something that I think we've just learned to sweep under the rug for a very long time. And with what's happening now in the world, it was a good time to speak up. And I think a lot of people of colour are seeing that they have to step up and speak their truth and give their stories to show that it's not perfect here in Canada.

CO: It's interesting you should say that, because I'm sure you may have noticed that a number of prominent white people have said, made public statements, that Canada doesn't have a problem with racism, that this is something that we're watching in the United States but it doesn't exist here. I just want to play a little bit of what Ontario's Premier, Doug Ford, had to say yesterday.

DOUG FORD: It's like night and day comparing Canada and the U.S.. I'm proud to be Canadian. I'm proud to be the Premier of Ontario. And I know Canadians just won't tolerate it and I won't tolerate it. I'm sure every leader in this province won't tolerate it. So I, you know, again, good luck to them. And hopefully they can straighten out their problems. And thank God...thank God that we're different than the United States and we don't have the systemic deep roots that they've had for years.

CO: All right. I'm not sure which part of that I should ask you to respond to. But what would you say to Mr. Ford had to say?

CM: I would say to that I think it's part of the problem in Canada is that there are a lot of people in power who are denying that there is a systemic racism happening in Canada. I think if you ask any person of colour, they can tell you that they've been racially profiled, that they believe that there's systemic racism and especially the Indigenous community. Yes, our racism looks different, but that's all about it. Just because it looks different doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

CO: He says we won't tolerate it. Do we?

CM: I think it's been tolerated for a very long time, especially talking about the Indigenous communities, the reserves, the residential schools, the effect from the residential school. And it's still happening. And we haven't fully accepted and fully helped the First Nation community in Canada.

CO: You're a teacher. Your students are grade seven students, right?

CM: Yes.

CO: What kinds of discussions do you have with them about racism in Canada?

CM: I think it's very important that I talk to my students about race. In my class, I make sure that whenever an issue happens, I make sure that we address it as a class and that we're able to air our concerns and talk about why things happen, why there's systematic racism. And that's why I initially made the post. I wanted people to have an open space, an open platform to speak their truth about what they've experienced and what's happened in their lives.

CO: Christian, I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

CM: Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me.

CH: Christian Mbanza is a teacher in Regina, and that's where we reached him.

[Music]

Birdsong Research

Guest: Michael Gorman

[Bird sounds]

CH: That's a recording that Michael Gorman and his son made at the start of May. Around 5:00 in the morning that day, the pair went out to a forest in Germany to record the sounds of birds. They did it as part of The Dawn Chorus Project, which was Mr. Gorman's idea. And over the month of May, the project received thousands of recordings from around the world. We reached Michael Gorman in Berg, Germany.

CO: Michael, how many birds do you think we're listening to in the course of that recording?

MICHAEL GORMAN: You can hear very strongly the black birds, the Eurasian blackbird, which is the dominating sound in the foreground. And then in the background, you've got some grey tits and blue tits. And the blue ti has the higher pitch sound in the background. And it's hard to tell exactly how many. I mean, it's really a tapestry of sounds, like most Dawn Choruses. But certainly the star is the blackbird.

CO: You had so many responses to the request for people to record sound. Why did you start this project? Why was it important?

MG: It was triggered by the realization that through the lock down, the COVID-19 lock down, there was a huge reduction in the amount of sound generated by humans. There was a reduction in airplanes in the sky and far fewer cars on the streets. And that meant that we were as well as being in an extraordinary moment for other reasons, we were also living in an extremely acoustic moment where no one could really hear the sounds of nature much more clearly than usual. So that stimulated the idea of encouraging people to go out, even if they were under lockdown to go out even in the garden or from the balcony with a smartphone and make recordings of The Dawn Chorus of the birds just before dawn, and then shared with us some of the global sound maps of The Dawn Chorus.

CO: And so the tape we heard was a recording you made in your home in Germany or near your home. Where else did these recordings come from?

MG: Yeah, well, the one we heard was actually made by my son -- my six year old son -- just near our home in a forest just outside Munich in Germany. And we have recordings we've received over three and a half thousand recordings over the past few weeks, submitted from all over the world, from Japan, Indonesia, Australia, North America, also South America, from Colombia, from Chile and from many countries over the world. So we've been really amazed by the response. And it's incredible just to listen to the variety of sounds that one hears from around the world. It really connects people around the world, even without language. It's an amazing phenomenon.

CO: When you get these tapes, when you can hear the sounds from everywhere, from India to California, these beautiful, wild symphonies, can you identify a large number of the birds yourself? Can you hear them?

MG: So I'm not myself an ornithologist. I mean, I have a basic amateur knowledge of the birds, particular European birds. But luckily, I'm working with some very talented ornithologists and scientists from the Max Planck Institute of Ornithology. And they are working with us to really use this as a way to understand the situation with the bird biodiversity. So that's a key issue right now. There's been in the last 50 years a decline in North America, for example, of 30 percent in the number of birds present. So this is a project where on the one hand it is connecting people through birdsong, but on the other hand, we really want to make it to be a way to understand the situation of bird biodiversity and to repeat it regularly so we get a picture of that.

CO: It is The Dawn Chorus project or website. So you just tell people what it is about that time of the day just before sunrise, that actually is the best time to listen to birds.

MG: Yeah. Well, it's very interesting. So in temperate countries, we have this phenomenon that particularly in springtime when birds are seeking mates and also defining their territory, that it's starting from about 80 minutes before dawn. You have almost a clock where you have different bird species that begins singing. So it starts off with the redstarts and swallows. And then you have the thrush right here. At the moment, we have a huge number of cuckoos. So you hear the cuckoo starting about 40 minutes before dawn. And then you get the blackbird, which we just heard, where you get the yellowhammer, the robin, black cap, the wrenen. So right up until sunrise, you have new voices entering the dawn chorus of these different kinds of birds.

CO: And who are the late sleepers?

MG: [Chuckles] Well, the late sleeper are the finches -- they come out fairly late, and the starlings. The starlings have an amazing voice and a huge range of sounds that they can make. They come fairly late, pretty close to dawn.

CO: I want to play a bit of another recording you sent us. This is one someone sent you from India. Let's just have a listen to that.

[Multiple bird sounds]

CH: It's quite different from what we've heard from your backyard or from near your backyard. So what can you tell us about that? Can you identify especially that loud bird?

MG: Yeah, well, that was sent to us from Pune in India, which is close to Mumbai. And the person who submitted it to the website, they said that it's a red-wattled lapwing. And apparently they've heard it particularly strongly during the COVID-19 lockdown periods, they said. So I found that quite an interesting recording, just a species that somebody maybe wasn't aware of being in the neighbourhood was suddenly very strongly heard at this moment.

CO: It all sounds very interesting Michael. And iit will encourage people to get up at [chuckles] 4:30 to listen to their dawn choruses while they still can before the traffic and the noises of humans begin once again. And I appreciate speaking with you and hearing about it. Thank you.

MG: It's been a great pleasure. Thank you.

CH: Michael Gorman came up with the idea for The Dawn Chorus project. He's the founding director of the BIOTOPIA Museum. We reached him in Berg, Germany. And you can find more on this story on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Part 2: Migrant Workers

Migrant Workers

Guest: Chris Ramsaroop

CH: COVID-19 outbreaks are multiplying on Ontario farms. On Sunday, a young man from Mexico died after contracting the disease in Canada. Hundreds of other workers have been infected, too. More than 150 workers at one farm alone. Ontario's Premier Doug Ford says his government is on this and is taking action to keep migrant workers safe. Chris Ramsaroop isn't so sure. Mr. Ramsaroop is an organizer with the advocacy group Justice for Migrant Workers. We reached him in Toronto.

CO: Mr. Ramsaroop, what are farms in Ontario doing to reduce the risk of COVID-19 infections among migrant workers arriving here?

CHRIS RAMSAROOP: So before the arrival of many of the migrant workers in March, many advocates had called and said that workers should be housed for the entire season. They should be put in hotels, motels to ensure that there is social distancing. In many cases, we're seeing that the status quo still remains, that workers are still four to five people in a room. There isn't enough space for social distancing and also within the workplaces. So we're still getting reports from workers of crowded conditions. Recently, a video shown on CBC of a farm in Leamington where workers were put into a warehouse during the quarantine period. The place looked very cold. And it was basically these really terrible beds and a very cold space that they were forced to live in. And so the conditions haven't changed much. And that should be a concern for you and I.

CO: And what about the isolation when they first arrived? Because this was the concern that led to some places like New Brunswick, not even allowing, until recently, allowing workers to come because they could bring infection with them. That was the idea. And so they would be isolated. They'd be in quarantine for 14 days. Is that happening?

CR: Most of the cases of the agricultural workers and to date there is, I believe, 443 workers in Ontario that have COVID-19. These are both Canadian and migrant workers. It seems that in most parts of Ontario, the virus was contracted from contact with locals. So it seems that whether it's locals that are working on the farms, in the larger communities, that this is where the virus has been picked up. With the most recent farm, Scott Lynn, where the workers, for instance, were quarantined. They've all were successful health wise over the quarantine period. So I think it's important understanding that it's not the migrant workers that are bringing the virus to Canada, but that it's afterwards -- a post period. That's what's happening in the communities.

CO: So then what happens if one of these workers is infected or is a carrier? What happens with all the other people that he's working with?

CR: I I think earlier when the first pandemic broke out, broke out in Chatham, Ontario, several workers had expressed concerns that when they had brought forward over the allegations, when they brought forth where workers were sick, it wasn't dealt properly by management. And what we're hearing not just from this particular farm, but from farms across Ontario, is that there is a containment strategy where in some cases the farms aren't quick enough to act to separate workers who already been diagnosed with the virus and who don't. So it seems within the migrant population on the farms that there is mixing and that's how it's spreading onto the migrant worker population.

CO: When these workers are found to be ill and some of them are gravely ill, how are they treated? What kind of health care do they have?

CR: Irrespective of what your status currently in Ontario, whether you're insured or not insured, the Ontario has said that everyone should have access. And agricultural workers and migrant farm workers would have access to health care. Our concern is later on the year when an injured or sick worker say two or three months down the road, they face medical repatriation, which is sent back home. In effect, we as Canada, what we do is we basically download our health care responsibilities onto the people of the global south. So what we're looking for right now is to ensure that any worker who is sick as a result of COVID-19, aren't sent back home and they receive full access to health care here in Canada.

CO: A Mexican worker, a man, has died of COVID-19 while he's been in Canada. Will his family be compensated? Is there anything that is going to happen to assist them?

CR: So we're trying to reach in contact with the family. Sadly, I've had a lot of experience dealing with families of deceased workers whose lives have been destroyed because this is their sole prison provides for them. A lot of times it's questions. There is anger. There is resentment. There is sadness. And there's fear. But also at the same time, there's also wanting answers to their questions. And that as a Canadian society, which is fundamental here, that we learn from these deaths and develop and should protections to ensure that these things don't happen again.

CO: But we have heard from farmers and people who hire these workers is that they can't function without them. They can't harvest their crops. They can't get them seeds. They can't work without the assistance of the laborers, it's essential to them. Ontario's premier said this week that his government is on this and he's going to make sure that the workers are kept safe. What would you say to the premier tonight?

CR: First, I'll say to the premier, don't target migrant workers. If you're going to conduct testing, increase testing for the general population. Don't specifically target migrant workers. If you're going to undertake testing of the agriculture industry make sure Canadian farm workers, the management, the bosses are also being tested. Number two, you've had an opportunity to ensure wage boost for essential workers and hazard pay changes to health and safety and employment standards are definitely needed. And for the federal government, 54 years or 55 years of a program that brings migrant workers without dignity should be a shame for all of us. There are families in the Caribbean who are suffering right now. So we have to ensure that the security and the safety of the workers are put first and foremost, and we provide both federal protections to help these workers out.

CO: We will leave it there. Mr. Ramsaroop thanks so much for speaking with us.

CR: Thank you.

CH: Chris Ramsaroop is an organizer with the advocacy group Justice for Migrant Workers. We reached him in Toronto.

[Music]

Atish Ram

CH: Things are looking better and better in B.C. when it comes to the coronavirus. COVID-19 hospitalizations are low. The number of new infections even lower. Restrictions are easing up and people are ready for things to get back to normal. And that strikes fear in the heart of a Atish Ram. He's coping with a permanent lung damage after surviving a grueling case of COVID that had him in hospital for 58 days. He doesn't want people to forget just how serious the implications can be if the virus spikes again. Mr. Ram spoke to CBC Radio's The Early Edition today.

ATISH RAM: They quickly rushed me down to ICU. That's when things changed and it got really worse. They did an X-ray and they saw that my whole entire lungs was filled with pneumonia and fluid. That I was literally drowning in my own, you know, fluids. And I remember asking the nurses, can I get some water? "Look, we can't give you water. We're going to intubate you tonight. Do you have family?" I says yes -- I have my wife and three kids. He goes listen, we need intubate you, you're going to be pretty much sedated in a coma for three to four weeks. We don't even know if he going to come out of it. If you have anything that you need to say to your family, I'd make that phone call now. I want you to think about this. And I want you to take your time. And I want you think about this, because you may not make it through the night. And it was the most scariest frightening experience that I had. And he was very compassionate about it. He goes, I hate to say this, but I'm telling you the truth. This is the way you need to know this. And I thought about it. They stabilized me. And I made that phone call that night to my wife and my kids. And both of us were crying. And I was giving the messages to my kids as if I'm going to be gone and I wanted my daughter to graduate. I'll be there for her in spirit when she graduates. I told my sons, you know, some advice. Told my wife what to do. And I couldn't talk much because I could only let out certain words. I asked for forgiveness from people. And then I said to my wife, the next set of messages, I can't talk anymore. I love you guys. But the next messages I'm going to send you is going to be through text. Here's what do you need to do and what I want you to do if I'm not around. And that was the worst day of my life.

CH: Atish Ram a COVID-19 survivor living in Surrey, B.C.. He spoke with CBC's Vancouver Stephen Quinn this morning.

[Music]

Barack Obama

CH: He may not be on the ballot, but Barack Obama is weighing in. In a virtual town hall this evening, the former president of the United States and its only black one expressed his support for the protests that are sweeping the nation. But he also urged calm, and encouraged people to channel their anger into political action. Specifically the kind of political action recommended by his own task force on 21st century policing. That report was published after the police shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, nearly six years ago.

BARACK OBAMA: That report demonstrated something that's critical for us today. Most of the reforms that are needed to prevent the type of violence and injustices that we've seen take place at the local level. Reform has to take place in more than 19,000 American municipalities. More than eighteen thousand local enforcement jurisdictions. And so as activists and everyday citizens raise their voices, we need to be clear about where change is going to happen and how we can bring about that change. It is mayors and county executives that appoint most police chiefs and negotiate collective bargaining agreements with police unions. And that determines police practices in local communities. It's district attorneys and state's attorneys that decide typically whether or not to investigate and ultimately charge those involved in police misconduct. And those are all elective positions. And in some places, there are police community review boards with the power to monitor police conduct, those oftentimes may be elected as well. The bottom line is I've been hearing a little bit of chatter in the Internet about voting versus protest, politics and participation versus civil disobedience and direct action. This is not an either or, this is a both aimed. To bring about real change, we both have to highlight a problem and make people in power uncomfortable. But we also have to translate that into practical solutions and laws that can be implemented and we can monitor and make sure we're following up on.

CH: Former U.S. President Barack Obama speaking at a virtual town hall this evening.

[Music]

From our archives: Attack Sheep

[Crunching sound and man screaming]

VOICE 1: Oh my lord.

VOICE 2: There's something wrong with the sheep. They attacked us.

VOICE 1: Oh nonsense. [Woman screams]

CH: That's a clip from the trailer for the 2006 horror comedy Black Sheep, in which a rampaging army of bloodthirsty sheep terrorizes a farm in New Zealand. Apparently, it's the result of someone meddling with their genes and failing to take into account the ramifications. The "ram" ramifications. The lesson is that humans shouldn't create armies of aggressive, dangerous sheep. And yet when Carol spoke with Keith Clifford of Leighterton, England, he seemed proud of having done just that. It was extremely matter of fact about the sheer brutal power of his battlesheep. From our archives, here's Carol's conversation with Mr. Clifford from March of 2007.

CO: Mr. Clifford, why did you train your sheep to be aggressive?

KEITH CLIFFORD: Well, we had so much burglaries in the village and we were getting a lot of stolen tiles and the stones stolen, which is, you know, this is a Gloucestershire village. And once those things go, you never replace them. Not the same.

CO: What exactly was being stolen?

KEITH CLIFFORD: Cottage stone tiles.

CO: And who steals those tiles?

KEITH CLIFFORD: Well, you see, we don't know. We were getting a little bit fed up of having -- we have neighbourhood lock watch come through when anything happens like this. And we were getting them two and three times a week. And I thought, well, it's time we done something about it. I had this Jacob lamb and I trained him up. You can train it like a dog. So it was great. I thought, well, I got some more in the end. And I finished up with a flock of 24. But I only take out five or six at a time. They work with the dog, never leave me. They're always around my legs as I walk in at night. And if I take a black one, sometimes that comes, I have to leave it at home very often because I've fallen over it. I can't see it that's how close they are to me. [Chuckles] The dog will go into the driveway and see if there's anything in there. And if she barks, the sheep will then run to the driveway and line up across the driveway so no one could get away if they come out. This seems to be working quite well.

CO: So the sheep will line up and guard that place the dog has identified as possibly being a problem?

KEITH CLIFFORD: That's right. Yep. Yeah. And anyway, since I've been doing it, this is the third season. Last summer was the first summer. I was doubting to take them out in the daytime, but the police said, okay do it. We reduced the crime down to very small ones, which is good.

CO: Now, are you saying your sheep have actually caught robbers?

KEITH CLIFFORD: They haven't actually caught them. We have caught the people I know I'm looking for. I know certain people, strangers where there's something going on. And out I go with sheep. And I have caught them, but I haven't caught them in action and I hope I never have to. But they weren't very impressed with me of using suspicious animals for the sake of just stealing a few quid from somebody who got plenty. That was their attitude to me.

CO: Were intimidated by your sheep at all?

KEITH CLIFFORD: They didn't like them. They definitely didn't like them. First of all, they said that it was wrong of me to use vicious animals. And they also said that they wouldn't hurt you. And I said, well, try. Let's try them. I said, they'll flip you in the air and you will come down like a piece of rug. And I haven't seen that group of people since and that was Christmas before last.

CO: Now, you told them that the sheep were attack and tear them up. Would the sheep really do that or are you just trying to scare them?

KEITH CLIFFORD: They would do it. Yes, they would. They will kill one another. So you could tell how vicious they get. There's one sleeping by the door, he is by the door every night to protect us. And he got so vicious that we couldn't go outside the door. And I had to have to have him castrated to slow him down a little bit and then work on him myself. So he's very good. And the other day he was attacking me and one of the others was looking at him and I told the other one to get him. And he got him.

CO: Got him in what way?

KEITH CLIFFORD: He belted him with his horn. They have got big horns. This is a frightening bit with them. They hurt. I've had a broken rib and bruises everywhere. The other day I had a fox killing all my chickens. And he used to come to the back door and I sent the sheep, the one that stays up here, I sent him after the fox and he chased him down the garden at full speed. And they can really motor -- I think they can do 50-60 mile an hour. And I haven't seen that fox. He hit him somewhere -- it must have been somewhere, it wouldn't have killed him there because I can't find him. He's obviously died somewhere. So obviously they will go, if you want them to.

CO: But you've actually taken this a bit further and you think one of your sheep might tear someone limb from limb.

KEITH CLIFFORD: They would do. Yes, they would do. But I hope this does not happen, as I said.

CO: I hope not too.

KEITH CLIFFORD: I can control them. I've got control day and night with them. But if I send them, I don't think I've got control. And with our laws, I'm going to get in serious trouble.

CO: Can you actually sick your sheep on someone? Can you get them to go and attack someone?

KEITH CLIFFORD: I think I could. I can get them to attack me and I think they will do it for other people, especially at night. They are known to be aggressive.

CO: I thought they're supposed to be sheepish.

KEITH CLIFFORD: [Laughs] Not Jacob sheep. Jacob sheep, a lot of people have got to get rid of them because the rams are so bad tempered. These are the rams I use.

CO: [Laughs] All right. Rams as opposed to real sheep. Now, how big are these Jacob rams or sheep? Tip to tail. Can you give me a rough idea?

KEITH CLIFFORD: I say the twice the size of an Alsatian dog. [Laughter]

CO: I just have to go and measure our Alsatian.

KEITH CLIFFORD: They're quite like a bear. But they are very very loyal to you. They're very very loyal and they're much easier to train than a dog. I mean, my dog, I know he's trained, but the sheep -- they're all loose. And they walk with you. And if a car comes, you just call them up onto the side and they stand on the side and they're so wonderful to walk with.

CO: Mr. Clifford, thank you very much for speaking with us.

KEITH CLIFFORD: Okay. Bye bye. [Laughs]

CH: From 2007, that was Carol speaking with farm worker and sheep Army General Keith Clifford of Leighterton, England. Now, for reference, you would have to line up sixty nine thousand eight hundred Jacob sheep head to tail in an easterly direction to reach Redding, but I wouldn't recommend it.

[Music]

Part 3: WHO and China

WHO and China

Guest: Ali Mokdad

CH: Think back to January, just when we were starting to hear about a new virus in China. During that time, the World Health Organization was outspoken in its praise for China's transparency in sharing what it knew about the novel coronavirus. That was publicly. But an investigation by the Associated Press shows that behind closed doors, WHO officials were angry and worried about China's failure to pass on vital information. Ali Mokdad is a professor of health metrics at the University of Washington. We reached him in Seattle.

CO: Professor Mokdad, from this investigation of the Associated Press, what do you understand was really going on between Chinese officials and the World Health Organization back in January?

ALI MOKDAD: You know, from this investigation, and I don't think that's the whole story, the WHO has done an amazing job and tried to get as much information from China. And as I said in the article, I believe if they hadn't pushed more, all of us would have suffered even more by the Chinese not providing the right information for WHO.

CO: The sort of the story as it's unfolded, is that the WHO was talking about this amazing transparency on the part of China. They called it very impressive beyond words that they're learning everything immediately when the Chinese officials hear it. That's what we were hearing from the WHO in January. What was the WH0 doing in the background with Chinese officials?

AM: I mean, that's the power of WHO to bring people together and to make sure we have a coordination across the world. And what goes in public is different than what goes behind closed door. And I know people at the WHO, I have very close friends who I respect at WHO and I know how much they care and what a wonderful job they are doing. So a lot of discussions were happening and WHO was very keen on getting the right information at the right time. Of course you need two partners. China was very reluctant to open its doors and allow everything for even for the Centers for Disease Control here in the US -- at multiple requests from CDC, you ask to CD China. And yes, there were delays by Chinese to provide the needed information for all of us to act upon.

CO: And why did they do that? What do you understand is the reasons why they dragged their feet, didn't share this genome, mapping so that people can compare it with other people getting sick? And they also didn't warn about the kind of the ability to spread this virus existed.

AM: I can't explain. I don't understand why. I can't explain why. It will be a very good question for the Chinese authorities and not the physicians. I know some physicians in China spoke up and then we need to understand why. I mean, yes, this has delayed a lot of our responses and if we had shared everything to everybody in the world, we would have been in a better position, all of us right now.

CO: And we know that the Chinese scientists who did speak up, were whistleblowers, were seriously sanctioned. One of those doctors died after he got COVID-19. All this was going on in the background. But because of China not letting the WHO know this and hence the world not know this, what were the consequences? How much more quickly did the virus spread because of that lack of knowledge?

AM: In any virus and any outbreak, you know, this is now a pandemic, but in any outbreak, the sooner you respond, the better you are. And the sooner we would have received this information, information and how severe the diseases and the blueprint of it, the sooner it would have been able to develop tests here in the United States and everywhere else in the world would have been able to close our borders, would have been able to offer help to China. So there are a lot of missed opportunities here. And in that respect, lots of mistakes have been made by our Chinese counterparts for not sharing.

CO: You understand that this is the basis for, well one part of the basis, for what Donald Trump has declared that the WHO is in the pocket of China. That it's a puppet, that it didn't tell us things because it's too closely related to China. Because the way the WHO didn't get this information, it's done serious damage to the WHO, hasn't it?

AM: I doubt it. I honestly, from a scientist who has worked with WHO, I doubt it because at WHO that's a common practice They have to work with what they have and what tools they have. They can't enforce anything. They have to reach out. They have to try once, twice, three times, and never to lose their patience. And they have to always take the high road. So I don't think so. I don't blame WHO.

CO: So what was going on, as far as you understand from this article and whatever else you know, what was going on at the WHO in that month of January while they were telling us that we are getting cooperation from China and they clearly were not, what was going on behind closed doors?

AM: There were heated, I can bet you, I wasn't in these discussions but I bet you from other circumstances that I'm aware of there were heated discussions, there were a lot of straight talk and urgency and the backing and all means in order to get the details.

CO: And why didn't they get it?

AM: I don't know. The Chinese. It's a China question, not a WHO question, unfortunately.

CO: Did the WHO have a responsibility to let the world know that it was not getting information it needed from China?

AM: The question should the following: Did the WHO tell through the channels people that this is happening? That's the question.

CO: WHO told the world that it was getting what it needed, it was impressive beyond words transparency from China. That gave an impression to what we were getting was the straight goods. Did they have a responsibility to let us know at least that they were not getting the information?

AM: Carol, I don't want to sound like I'm defending WHO. WHO is a great institution tthat doesn't need me to defend it, but let me one more time. If the WHO through the proper channels -- remember they have offices in almost every country in the world -- were telling the world or the public health officials, ministry of health in every country what they needed to know. Is this good enough? That's what the question should be, what WHO did, not what WHO announced to the public.

CO: But we acted on the understanding that they were getting the straight goods from China and they were not.

AM: And in certain countries step could be very true. But again, WHO did all what it needed to do. Tried as much as needed to do. All of us knew in December that there's is a problem with COVID-19. Many countries, including my country, have consulate in Wuhan, they knew exactly what's happening.

CO: Professor Mokdad we will leave it there. Thank you.

AM: Thank you.

CH: Ali Mokdad is a professor of health metrics at the University of Washington. He spoke to us from Seattle.

[Music]

Bell Telus 5G

Guest: Stephanie Carvin

CH: Two of Canada's largest telecommunications companies made significant announcements yesterday. In the morning, Bell said it had made a deal with Ericsson to provide equipment for its 5G network, the next generation of wireless Internet. Later in the day, Telus announced that it had selected Ericsson and Nokia to do the same. Not included in either deal was Hauwei. Ottawa continues to mull whether it will allow the Chinese telecom firm to have a role in building the country's 5G networks. Stephanie Carvin is a former national security analyst who now teaches at Carleton University. We reached her in Ottawa.

CO: Professor Carvin, what do these announcements from Bell and tell us, what do they mean for Huawei's role in building Canada's 5G network?

STEPHANIE CARVIN: First of all, this means that they will still consider using Huawei if it is permitted in a lesser capacity. So they may still use some Huawei equipment. And then the second thing is that the 5G equipment, the approach we're taking in Canada is that it's actually going to be built on top of existing 4G infrastructure, much of which is already supplied by Huawei. So by no means is this a band. By no means does this mean that there's no Huawei whatsoever in our telecommunications networks. But I think this is something of a blow, at least to the prestige of Huawei, such as it is in Canada.

CO: So just remind people what would prevent or make the companies Bell and Telus reluctant to continue with Huawei when it's creating its 5G network. Just remind us of the background of that.

SC: So there's been a lot of pressure on Canada to ban Huawei. Huawei, I'm sure most Canadians now have heard of it, at least in relation to the arrest of the chief financial officer, Meng Wanzhou, and some of the diplomatic disputes that it has caused Canada, including the basic hostage taking of two Canadians as a result. But beyond that, there's been a discussion as to whether Huawei equipment is safe to be used. And certainly there is a perception in the United States and some of our major intelligence sharing allies like Australia and now Britain, who have banned Huawei because they feel that the risk of hacking of our security of communications to our critical infrastructure is too much for basically state champions enterprise from China to participate in their communications networks. And they want Canada to ban it as well.

CO: When you mentioned those allies, we were talking about what they called the five eyes. This is a pooling of intelligence and an alliance that includes United States, Australia, New Zealand and Britain along with us. United States is adamant that Canada and no other countries should be using Huawei. And while they provide much, if not most of the intelligence that's in that pool, where is Canada standing at this point? They are supposed to be reviewing it. And why has there not been a decision whether we're going to go with the United States, a view on Huawei or not?

SC: I can't say specifically why there hasn't been a decision. I could speculate to the fact that, you know, Canada being in a very difficult position with China right now with regards to the two Michaels, who, of course, are in China that I alluded to earlier, as well as, you know, this kind of idea that we're stuck somehow between the Trump administration and the increasingly aggressive regime of President Xi in China. But also, I mean, there are some difficult questions here from a cybersecurity perspective. The problem is there's only a few companies that can actually produce 5G equipment. And, you know, one of the things that cybersecurity experts worry about is what they call a tech monoculture. And that is where, you know, one or two companies dominate the market. And the reason they worry about that is they feel that, you know, if you have a kind of monopoly or a large stake in the market, you don't have to worry about being competitive. You don't have to worry about, you know, your cybersecurity or being a good, secure company because there's no incentive to it. So having more actors in the market can actually make your overall network safer in the sense that, you know, there may be less risk of vulnerabilities in one particular brand of equipment actually, you know, than affecting the entire network as a whole. So you want to diversity a plurality of companies in your market. So that's one of the justifications for actually having Huawei in the market. And it's something that's been reviewed. It's my understanding that the advice from a lot of the cyber spies is basically that, you know, a lot of the hacking threat is overrated. It can actually be mitigated through a lot of good cybersecurity practices. Most of our communications that we engage with online are actually encrypted. They're very hard to break. And so, you know, that kind of hacking threat might even be a little bit overrated. But this is something that the United States categorically says is untrue. They feel that Huawei just has too many vulnerabilities in it. And so this is the kind of decision that has to be made, you know, through various government departments and agencies coming together, having to come up with a policy in the government deciding on it. And layer on top of that, all the political factors we've already talked about, it's a very difficult decision to make.

CO: But Canada has now spent nearly two years reviewing whether it should allow Huawei to be part of that. And so, Andrew Scheer mentioned yesterday, he said the Liberals in action on Huawei is another example of weak leadership, that Trudeau is forcing the business community to make a decision for him. Is there some truth to that?

SC: There may be some truth to that. I mean, it's entirely possible that the government is kind of waiting for the decisions to be made for them by business, that this may actually be an easier thing for them to say. It'll be easier for them to say no to Huawei if most companies won't be using the equipment anyway. You know, and that's somewhat unfortunate. I think we should be a little bit more proactive in our decision making because the problem that we're dealing with is a state championed company that can rely on endless resources of the state, that is finding ways to circumvent the rule of law here in Canada. And this is not going to be the last time this happened. Canada is increasingly going to have to make difficult decisions about what to do about state champions and state owned companies coming from China. So, you know, we need to be better at making these decisions, need to be a little bit bolder. It is a little crazy that it's been taking so long to make this decision when our allies have, in fact, been able to do so.

CO: All right. We're going to leave it there. Professor Carvin I appreciate speaking with you today. Thank you.

SC: Thank you.

CH: That was former national security analyst Stephanie Carvin in Ottawa.

[Music]

Karl-Heinz Grundboeck

CH: For years, the house in Austria sat empty. But now Adolf Hitler's birthplace is being turned into a new police station. It's in Braunau, Austria. And in 2016, the Austrian government finally took over the house after years of renting it out. But it remained empty because it was hard to find tenants who were agreeable to the owners and to society at large and who wouldn't sell it. Now, finally, an Austrian architect has unveiled a plan to turn the house into a police station by 2022. In 2014, Carol spoke with Karl-Heinz Grundboeck, a spokesman for the Austrian Ministry of the Interior. At the time, the ministry had accepted that the house would just sit empty. Here's part of our conversation.

CO: Is it so difficult to find tenants who are not affiliated with Nazis?

KARL-HEINZ GRUNDBOECK: So it's not the problem to find tenants who are not affiliated with Nazis. But at the same time, we had several concepts for social welfare or for education, for remembrance to the Holocaust and so on. But we would need an agreement with the owner. And we didn't come to an agreement with the owners so far. And since then, since 2011, this house is empty. We have to pay four thousand eight hundred euros per month. And now, after three years, we have to face the fact that we didn't find someone to sell.

CO: It seems that the owner is getting a pretty sweet deal then, isn't he or she? They get 4800 euros a month and they don't have to have any tenants in it.

KARL-HEINZ GRUNDBOECK: So what we have to accept is the fact that as a private ownership. And we also have to accept is that there's no willingness to sell this house and we have to prevent any use of this house from people who are or share of the ideology of the Nazis.

CO: You have many sites in Germany where there would be and Austria, where there would be associations with the Nazis, with Hitler. There are neo-Nazis n your countries. So by a virtue of not allowing them rent, it doesn't mean that you can get rid of that ideology. So at some point you just have to decide, well, we have to let these things go or do you think it really does make a difference at suppressing neo-Nazi sentiments?

KARL-HEINZ GRUNDBOECK: So I think it's very important just to remember what happened in Austria, Germany, and other countries at the time. And also being aware about this importance of remembrance. I think that also this is place is to have a high level of importance. And I think, therefore, it's still necessary just to have this place, just to still make people think about it. And this is also a big responsibility of [inaudible].

CH: That was Karl-Heinz Grundboeck, a spokesman for the Austrian Ministry of the Interior, speaking with Carol in 2014. This week, the Austrian government announced that Adolf Hitler's birthplace will be turned into a police station.

[Music]

Ideas promo: Thomas King

CH: All this week, "Ideas" is revisiting the Massey lectures of Thomas King, five talks from the Indigenous novelist and thinker. The series is called The Truth About Stories: A Native Narrative. Each lecture is a mix of anecdote and analysis or look at the slippery nature of the stories we tell personal and cultural. In this clip, Thomas King reflects on being an in demand speaker at American college campuses in the late 1960s.

THOMAS KING: There are other invitations. So many, in fact, that my loose collection of sound and fury quickly coalesced into a rather polished and potent presentation. And as I wandered from campus to campus, I became -- God help me -- a spokesperson. Special, tonight only, return of the complaining Native, hear it from a real Indian. [Crowd laughs] White depredations, Indian depravations, you'll laugh, you'll cry, wine and cheese reception to follow. Entertainment. Probably not as much fun as being tossed around, say, on a mechanical bull or watching a good hockey fight on Friday night. But several steps up from bowling. [Crowd laughs] At first I thought it was just me that in my haste to make a difference in my desire to change the world, I had become a caricature of protest. So I toned down my indignation, did some historical research so I could throw out the occasional date, turned in my ribbon shirt, my four strand bone choker and my beaded belt buckle for a acheap but serviceable suit and a rather nice tie and arrived at the next confrontation, virtually indistinguishable from the boys from Washington.

CH: Writer Thomas King from his 2003 Massey lectures The Truth About Stories, you can hear the second talk tonight on "Ideas" with Nahlah Ayed after As It Happens.

[Music]

Fraser institute Four Day Week

Guest: Steven Globerman

CH: The pandemic slowdown has prompted a lot of thinking about how things could change after all this is over. And to cut a long story short, one idea is to cut a long week short. It's not just those on the left of the political spectrum proposing a four day workweek. Today, the conservative think tank, the Fraser Institute put out a report saying that the shortened workweek is possible while maintaining the productivity of Canadian workers. Steven Globerman a Fraser Institute senior fellow. We reached him in Bellingham, Washington.

CO: Mr. Globerman, I think most of us could make a pretty good case for a four day workweek. What's the Fraser Institute's argument in favour?

STEVEN GLOBERMAN: Well, what's in it for the economy is directly being better off, people being better off because they have more leisure time. The question is, how does the economy generate more leisure time without sacrificing standard of living that is material standard of living? And the answer is productivity growth.

CO: So is your argument that productivity growth increases when people are working fewer days?

SG: Well, it's actually the other way around, it is that productivity growth allows people to work less while maintaining their standard of living. I think the more conventional way of thinking about it is people become more productive and then that allows workers to have more time off without sacrificing material income.

CO: And so how willing will employers be to allow this, I guess, experiment to take place?

SG: Employers should be very willing to do it if it enables them to hire productive workers. This is going to be something that's bargained out in the workplace between employers and employees. What employers are interested in is obviously producing more output efficiently. And if employees can do that, then the bargaining process is the employer saying, what do you want? Would you rather have a higher salary or more time off or some combination of both? So it's the marketplace that really sorts out what the distribution of this bonus that's created by improved productivity.

CO: There has to be a buy in at some point, right? I mean, there has been in some countries, in some jurisdictions, some companies have seen that. But it's a leap for employers to make, to say, we're going to reduce the workweek because we think that we will actually be more productive and it'll be better for the company. How difficult is it for employers, for companies to to make that leap?

SG: Well, the leap is going to come the other way. The leap is going to come from employers saying we can get more production out of our workers. And therefore, we're going to compete for more workers. Workers become more valuable because they're more productive. And the workers would then say, okay well, we know that you're looking for more workers in the sense that we're more valuable. Let's bargain. I'll work for you if you A) pay me more per hour or B) allow me to have more time off or some combination of the two. It's competition in the marketplace that drives that, what you are calling a leap on the part of employers. Employers can get more out of workers in terms of output and so workers are more valuable to them. And so they're willing to make a bargain with workers. And then the bargain is, well, it's either one or the other or both. More income, more leisure, or some combination of the two.

CO: But do you really think that individual workers have that kind of bargaining power that they can say, I'm going to work someplace else? Lots of them probably do or possibly do, but large numbers of people would not have that ability or feel comfortable doing that. They feel that they might lose their job or they might not be respected or they should be working like the other people and if they're going to work longer hours, they should too. There's all kinds of dynamics, aren't there? I mean, I just wonder how is it that all this could be determined by the will of the individual worker?

SG: So the question that you're asking, if I could put it this way, the indirect question you're asking is, are workers rewarded for productivity increase? Because that's what we're talking about. We're talking about a process by which workers would become more productive and be rewarded for their productivity. So here are the facts on that matter, that over a very long period of time in Canada and elsewhere, but certainly in Canada, wages -- I'm talking about real wages -- inflation adjusted wages, very closely track productivity improved. As a worker's productivity improves, their standard of living improves. And that's kind of the evidence that I mean, I think that's very powerful evidence that the bargaining process works, that workers are rewarded for higher productivity.

CO: Just another idea that's floated in these COVID days talking about how labour might change. Another idea that I'll put to is that Ottawa is now looking at the possibility of endorsing 10 days of paid sick leave for all workers in Canada. Is that an idea that you would endorse?

SG: I guess the endorsement would come if we're linking it again to productivity. This is something that, again, is part of the bargaining process. If workers would prefer more paid time off or sick leave, versus a higher hourly wage, then certainly why not? If that's the preference of workers. If Ottawa says we think workers want this and impose it and it's not particularly what workers want, well, then I guess you can question as to whether it is a sensible policy.

CO: All right. Lots to think about here Mr. Globerman. Thank you.

SG: Okay. Thank you very much.

CH: Steven Globerman is a Fraser Institute senior fellow. We reached him in Bellingham, Washington.

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June 3, 2020 Episode Transcript

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