Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2020

The Current Transcript for June 4, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

Canada is a first world country. This shouldn't be happening here. We need to lead by example. This has got to stop.

MATT GALLOWAY: A year ago, when the report on missing and murdered indigenous women and girls was released, the 231 recommendations were peppered with words like urgent and immediate. A year later, what's changed? Not much of anything. According to those who told their stories to the national enquiry, in the absence of the promised National Action Plan to implement the recommendations, we hear about their frustrations. And the minister responsible explains why the delay. And that's in 30 minutes. And then.

SOUNDCLIP

People with spinal cord injuries and disability support, some financially desperate situations, literally having to make choices between getting food and buying medication, between rent and rehabilitation.

MG: How this pandemic could actually improve the lives of those living with a disability. And later, when the Taliban swept to power in Afghanistan, culture, amongst many other things, was on the chopping block. Music was banned, cinemas shuttered. But behind a fake wall in Kabul was hidden away. A priceless archive of films capturing that country's rich cinematic history. The story of the forbidden real. Coming up in an hour. But first to the fields and the harsh impact of COVID-19 on those who grow our food. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. And this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

Farm workers and COVID-19

Guests: Chris Ramsaroop, Keith Currie, Mustafa Hirji

MG: From the early days of the COVID-19 pandemic, there have been fears about our food supply and the safety of workers who produce it. Now, a number of farms across south western Ontario are dealing with outbreaks. As of Monday, 345 farm workers had tested positive from at least 20 different farms. On Saturday, a migrant worker died. He was 31 years old. Chris Ramsaroop is with Justice for Migrant Workers. Chris, good morning.

CHRIS RAMSAROOP: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What went through your mind when you heard about the death of Bonifacio Eugenio-Romero?

CHRIS RAMSAROOP: Actually, Matt, I'm going to go back 10 years ago. That was the first time you had interviewed me. And it was the same feelings. It was a very similar circumstance where two migrant farm workers from Eaton, Ontario Hydro, died in a workplace accident. Back then, we were concerned about occupational health and safety concerns. And it was the same thoughts that came to my mind when the passing of beneficial. What are the health and safety protections? What are the housing protections that have been put in place over the last 10 years? And I would argue that not much has changed in this pandemic.

MG: We're seeing an uptake of of cases of COVID-19 in the agricultural sector in southwestern Ontario. Something like 60 workers at the Pioneer Flower Farm have tested positive. The 40 new cases yesterday. What's going on?

CHRIS RAMSAROOP: Our numbers are 443. And that number is still climbing. There's two things that we have to remember to remind people. Migrant workers are tied to one employer. They have no labour and social mobility. Many workers are fearful of exerting the rights for fear of being sent home. We know that the conditions in bunkhouses are very cramped. There's very little social isolating. There's concerns around the absence of protective equipment. And what's also the most important part is the accountability process here. There is no regulations for housing for migrant agricultural workers and occupational and health and safety protections in the province of Ontario are lax as opposed to other industries. If you're a miner or if you're a construction worker, you'd have a lot more protections at work as opposed to an agricultural worker.

MG: Take me inside one of those bunkhouses. What do you mean when you say that to trade? The conditions are cramped and the situation is difficult for social isolation.

CHRIS RAMSAROOP: So thank you. So the areas there's a lot of communal spaces. Workers are complaining that they're not receiving enough equipment. The bathrooms, for instance, in many places are subpar. They're not receiving enough equipment from their employers to pop up to to engage in proper hygiene. You'd have four to six to eight men in a room and then you've got larger open spaces where workers be 40 to 50 people in an area. So there is often a lot of places where there's no privacy, there's no ability to have your own area of secureness, to protect yourself for health reasons.

MG: To those workers, get sick pay. If they were to fall ill with, would they be able to isolate themselves and not go out into the fields to work but still be paid?

CHRIS RAMSAROOP: Thank you. That's also a really important question. So Ontario, with me with the election of our Rob Ford sorry, Doug Ford eliminated hazard pay, sick pay for all workers in Ontario. So there is no sick pay at this point in time at the provincial level. We also have federal concerns, the fact that workers are tied to an employer, the fact that workers are consistently afraid of speaking up for the rights and to be sent home. This is a problem of both the federal provincial government and they have failed to act to protect the interests of migrant workers.

MG: What do you mean tied to an employer?

CHRIS RAMSAROOP: Thank you for that, too. It is means that a worker could only work for one employer in Canada. They don't have the ability to move from workplace to workplace if there is abuses or if they're fed up with the conditions or there's no work. If a worker is, it does decide to work at another place. That would be considered a violation of their immigration rights in Canada and they'll be sent home and deported. So there creates a tremendous power imbalance with respect to the rights of agricultural workers.

MG: Earlier this morning, I spoke with a migrant worker named Nickoy. He's from Jamaica. He works at Sandy Shore Farms in Norfolk, Ontario.

SOUNDCLIP

MG: Have there been any COVID cases on your farm?

NICKOY: No, no.

MG: Did you hear about the death of this worker at a different farm?

NICKOY: Yes, I heard about it.

MG: What went through your mind when you heard about that?

NICKOY: Well, take more safety precautions with everybody, to keep away from this thing. It's deadly.

MG: You and I spoke just when you were arriving and there was a lot of talk about trying to, you know, keep safe, as you say. How has that worked out? Have you been able to do the distancing, the physical distancing that is so important in this situation?

NICKOY: Yes, most of the time. But when we use masks and gloves.

MG: And so in the bunkhouse, how many workers are there in the bunkhouse?

NICKOY: We have eight.

MG: Eight. And there's space for people to be to be separated there.

NICKOY: Yes. Yes. We have two Kitchen. Two bathrooms. And so four to utilise.

MG: So what about out in the work.

NICKOY: In the work, yes, there is a lot of space because there are shields.

MG: You have to wear a mask in that situation or no?

NICKOY: No, because actually the strip we're in we're close together.

MG: OK. Do you feel safe in this situation?

NICKOY: Yes. So far, so good.

MG: So far. What would change that, do you think?

NICKOY: I think if it gets closer to us.

MG: But is there anything you can do? I mean, if that would happen, what would what would be your options?

NICKOY: Basically, I don't know at the moment. But I can go try to [unintelligible] myself.

MG: Is there space to do that, though?

NICKOY: Yes, I think so.

MG: And our people on the crew, are they talking about COVID? Is that the subject of discussion?

NICKOY: Yes. Yes. That's a big topic.

MG: And what are people saying really?

NICKOY: No body want to catch it, nobody want to die, nobody want to get sick. They'll scared.

MG: Stay safe. I hope you. It does not come anywhere near you. You have a big day work ahead. So I appreciate you talking to us.

NICKOY: Okay. No problem, Matt.

MG: Thank you, Nickoy.

NICKOY: Okay. Bye.

MG: Chris Ramsaroop, Nico, says that he personally feels safe, but says also that this is the talk amongst the crew. The people are worried about this, that they're scared. Should he be more worried about the spread of COVID-19 within his crew?

CHRIS RAMSAROOP: I think that all workers, all agriculture workers, whether it's Canadian or migrant workers, I should be concerned. And I'm glad that, you know, his condition seems to be better than what we're hearing in other places. But his experiences is not what we're hearing. Often we're hearing a lot of workers who are terrified about catching the virus. And once again, it's about if workers are sick, we have to ensure that they stay in Canada to receive health care. So it's once again, it shouldn't be incumbent on migrant workers having to exert the rights. What steps will both provincial and federal governments take to protect the best interest of our agricultural workers and our food system?

MG: What are the steps that you want them to take?

CHRIS RAMSAROOP: At the provincial level, there should be increased safety [unintelligible]. We should be talking about hazard pay. We should be having a wage boost for agricultural workers. If they're considered essential workers, they should be provided the same type of protections that we're providing to other workers and nurses like doctors. We still see farm workers as both invisible and expendable. And that's something that we want to change and make sure that that does change.

MG: At the federal level. What are you looking for?

CHRIS RAMSAROOP: Yes. At the federal level. No one should be tied to an employer. We should have open work permits to start off with. And our longstanding demand has been permanent status on arrival. Migrant agricultural workers do not have the ability to access residency in Canada. And we don't we think that that's- this is systemically discriminatory. And this really tells you by how we value the migrant workers who put food on our table. So the federal government and the provincial government must act. It must end this form of indentured ship. And as Canadians, we're having a really tough conversation about racism, about the legacy of slavery. And we also have to take this step to address the racism that we see in the field of Ontario and across Canada.

MG: You think that that's how those workers are seen as invisible and expendable?

CHRIS RAMSAROOP: This is a conversation that we have a lot of times with workers. They're like, why aren't people giving us hazard pay? Why don't people see the importance that we do? Canadians would not eat if we were not putting food on your table.

MG: Chris Ramsaroop, good to speak with you. Thank you.

CHRIS RAMSAROOP: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Chris Ramsaroop is with Justice for Migrant Workers. Keith Currie is the president of the Ontario Federation of Agriculture and the vice president of the Canadian Federation of Agriculture. He's in Collingwood, Ontario. Keith, good morning to you.

KEITH CURRIE: Good morning.

MG: It's been one death. Hundreds of positive test results for COVID-19 amongst migrant workers here. Do you think migrant workers are protected enough in our country?

KEITH CURRIE: Well, I know certainly we're doing everything we can as an organisation, working with government officials at all levels to make sure that those protective equipment and barriers are in place for all of our our members and their employees. As we've seen through COVID-19, there's been a lack of overall of PPE available. We've seen the issues with the health system getting access to these this type of equipment. And we're certainly pushing hard for government to find that equipment for our members as well, because after all, we don't have workers that are healthy and able to go to work and then that's a problem for businesses. So even we've been fortunate that lately there's been a lot of to come available. Certainly our members are working hard to secure as much as they can.

MG: Chris Ramsaroop says that those workers who have been declared essential because they get food into our stores and onto our tables, that despite that essential nature, they are invisible and expendable. When you hear that, what goes through your mind?

KEITH CURRIE: Well, I certainly have to consider the source to start with. And certainly workers of all, whether the domestic or foreign need a watchdog. I appreciate that. And we certainly have some unions out there that are trying to advocate to unionise agricultural workers.

MG: But do you think that as a country we treat them as expendable?

KEITH CURRIE: Well, absolutely not. I think that's a very unfair. Statement to blanket everyone to everyone that treats migrant workers unfairly. And anyone I talk to as migrant workers, they're like family. In some cases, you're talking about second and third generations of the same family to come back to the operation. And when these owner operators go on vacations, they go back to the countries where the workers are from and visit them. So they are like family. These workers sometimes will babysit children, all the while the farm operators go for an evening.

MG: But he says that they're tied to their employer in some way that they aren't. I mean, there's not a pathway for permanent residency, but also if they were to leave the employer that they're currently working for, because perhaps they don't like the conditions, that they could find themselves deported. Is that how we would treat family?

KEITH CURRIE: No, it's not how you treat family. Absolutely not. But I can't speak to all the logistics of the temporary foreign worker programme. But there a situation where workers are tied to an employer. I know when in in agriculture, we actually have just begun this year, a new pilot project that Agriculture Canada has began, where migrant employees, can work on a pathway to permanent residence residency. And I also know the government has made some allowances this year for TFW who have been put out of work, to allow them to go to different employees to maintain working status. So there are always, always tweaks going on in the system to make it make it easier. But for the seasonal ag workers that come in here on a regular basis, you know, they come in based on a contract that their country has negotiated with ours and how they how they are housed, how they work. I mean, I heard Chris talking about the housing situation. We have at least four different agencies that go through housing. There's the local bylaw inspector, there's public health unit, Service Canada does an inspection and the Ministry of Labour in each province inspects those facilities.

MG: Well, you would know up in Collingwood. I mean, that's Apple Country there. There are a lot of migrant workers that come in over the course of the year to prune trees and harvest. Is it possible to safely distance yourself in in those bunkhouses where those migrant workers are living?

KEITH CURRIE: They actually have no choice, Matt, this year. I mean, we have the protocols mandate that you have to distance. The quarantine period is very specific. And all the inspections are done prior to these workers coming in to make sure that those distancing rules are in place. And so, you know, to pin COVID on a migrant workers because there wasn't the right conditions is unfair. We've got thousands of people in this province of Ontario who have contracted positive tests and thousands have died. And so this is a human problem. This isn't a migrant worker problem.

MG: I guess the last question is, how do you balance that and the concerns for the safety of those workers with the concerns of people who are running farms that we're hearing about? You know, 60 percent of the asparagus crop, for example, could end up just rotting in the field because there aren't enough workers there. How do you balance the need for workers with also the need for safety?

KEITH CURRIE: Well, that's what we've been struggling with, is how do we make sure that we have our membership prepared for not if you get an outbreak, but when you get an outbreak. And how are you going to handle that? And this is why we've been calling for all the protective equipment that we can get her hands on for these workers, making sure that, ah, our employees do the decent thing like they have been doing. And everyone's been doing a terrific job of making sure that the facilities are safe, they're clean, that workers are protected. But a lot of these workers also integrate with the community to do the grocery shopping or other shopping. So to say that, you know, they brought it with them is wrong. Almost every case, is a case of communal spread. And, you know, we have to be cognisant of the fact that this virus seasonal boundaries.

MG: Keith, it's good to speak with you about this. I appreciate your time. Thank you.

KEITH CURRIE: Thanks a lot.

MG: Keith Currie is the president of the Ontario Federation of Agriculture. He was in Collingwood, Ontario, over the past week. About 60 migrant workers at a flower farm in St. Catharines, Ontario, have tested positive for COVID-19. Dr. Mustafa Hirji is the acting medical officer of health for the Niagara Region in Ontario. Doctor, good morning to you.

MUSTAFA HIRJI: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What do we know about how this spread started? Was it from the community? Was it brought in from abroad? What are the roots of this in in these agricultural areas?

MUSTAFA HIRJI: So any agricultural worker coming in from a foreign country is part of the federal government programme, has to quarantine themselves for two weeks before they can start work. And so all the workers clearing that quarantine period, there's no links to travel to anybody who's become infected. So this very much appears to be people who, through their normal activity out in the community, unfortunately became exposed to COVID-19 like anybody else in from their infancy. The infection is spread through the farm.

MG: What do we know about the. Emissions on the farm that were 40 new cases confirmed yesterday, 60 cases at this pioneer flower farm. What are the conditions there in terms of living spaces?

MUSTAFA HIRJI: So just want to highlight that not all 60 cases are amongst migrant workers in terms of the living situation for the workers who do live there. They do live in bunk houses, which are communal living engagements, where there are multiple people living in a building. The buildings, I say, are relatively modest in terms of their furnishing. And so there's, of course, a difficulty to maintain lots of distance amongst each other. Similar, actually, to what we see in households where we often see when one infection is introduced into our household, it informally spread through the rest of the family on the household. The other factor here, of course, is that there's greenhouses. There's other locations where people are in the workplace where sometimes perhaps distancing isn't happening as effectively as possible. And that's why we've also seen infections in persons who don't live on the farm.

MG: Do we know whether those greenhouses people were wearing personal protective equipment, masks, gloves, etc?

MUSTAFA HIRJI: Perhaps from our understanding, people are not, unfortunately wearing masks and other personal protective equipment. Since we've declared the outbreak, that is something that we have expected to happen and from our observation that is now occurring.

MG: There are different approaches across the country to working with migrant workers. Have a listen to Natalia Sudeyko. She's with the group Dignidad Morganti in Vancouver.

SOUNDCLIP

In BC the government is requiring incoming workers to spend 14 days in self isolation in hotels which are paid for. And food is also provided to the workers and they're paid 30 hours a week. It's a positive step because on the farm, these workers are going to they're typically not able to self isolate. They usually live in really crowded conditions. So it's a good step that the government has taken to ensure that workers, at least once they get to their farms, will be healthy.

MG: Dr. Hirji, is that something that we could learn from in Ontario, what's happening in British Columbia?

MUSTAFA HIRJI: I think there's certainly elements of that that we could learn. Much of that I think is already in place here in terms of 14 days of isolation in the owner of the farm, responsible, providing food, etc.. However, in Ontario, typically that's self isolation is occurring inside the bunkhouse where, of course, there's still going to be risk that other members who live in that same building could become infected. So I think the BC model of having people in hotels is quite progressive to further lower that risk. I think fortunately thus far we have not really seen migrant worker infection coming from infections that have been imported from overseas. It is really largely been community spread. So do want to caution that I don't see- I think while that's a positive move that BC has done, it's not the primary issue that we need to address to make sure that these workers are safe.

MG: What about sick days? How important are having paid sick days so that if somebody does feel ill, they don't feel like they have to continue to go to work?

MUSTAFA HIRJI: I think that's something that's very important. Of course, right now in public health that we're expecting anybody who developed symptoms to isolate themselves and remain isolated until they've tested negative or if they do test positive, that they continue isolating for up to 14 days. For someone who is here to work and who needs to earn that income, whatever their background, I think it's important that they don't suffer that economic hardship because of what they're doing is trying to keep others in their community healthy.

MG: Just before I let you go. Chris Ramsaroop said that one of the reasons why this happens is because of how this country sees those workers. They're essential workers. But in his words, they're invisible and they're expendable. What do you make of that?

MUSTAFA HIRJI: I think it's definitely a fair comment that these workers are fairly essential. I think in general, most people can't and don't have a great sense of what is happening through the food supply, particularly on farms. I think it would be nice if people had a better understanding of that. And I think it would help with a conversation of how to better support these workers in terms of the broader conversation of race amongst workers. I think that's quite a complex conversation. I think there are many rights that have been put in place for these workers. For example, we enjoy Ontario health insurance programme coverage here in Ontario. That being said, they obviously don't enjoy the same rights, same freedom of movement between workplaces as do other Canadian citizens. And I think it's a broader conversation we need to be having as a society of what is the appropriate rights that we should be affording these workers.

MG: Appreciate your time this morning, Doctor. You're busy. This is an important issue, though. Thank you.

MUSTAFA HIRJI: Very much so. And thank you very much for having me.

MG: Dr. Mustafa Hirji is the acting medical officer of health for the Niagara region. We did request interviews with Ontario's minister of Health, Labour and Agriculture. None of them were available to speak with us this morning. Coming up in six minutes, it's been a year since the national enquiry into missing and murdered indigenous women and girls wrapped up with recommendations. Advocates and families are left wondering why there's still no national action plan. We'll find out. Coming up. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio one.

Back To Top »

Accusations of inaction after MMIWG inquiry

Guests: Meggie Cywink, Nahanni Fontaine, Carolyn Bennet

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Still to come, how COVID19 could be an opportunity to improve the lives of Canadians living with disabilities. But first, one year after the Murdered and Missing Indigenous Women and Girls report.

SOUNDCLIP

She went missing with her friends September 6, 2008, and she went missing without a trace. So no file, no leads, no, no nothing. It's over 10 years later and still missing. Still no clues. Still no answers.

MG: Maria Jakko speaking about her niece, Mazy Odjick. Stories like that are not unique in this country. It was one year ago that the final report from the national enquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls was released. That report came with a promise from the federal government to have a national action plan ready within a year. Now the government is saying it needs more time. We'll hear from the minister responsible, Carolyn Bennett, in just a moment. But first, Meggie Cywink is from Whitefish River First Nation in Ontario. She was a special adviser and liaison for families in that province during the enquiry. Nahanni Fontaine is the NDP MLA for St. John's in Manitoba. She's a member of the Sagkeeng Anishinaabe First Nation. Good morning to you both.

NAHANNI FONTAINE: Good morning.

MEGGIE CYWINK: Good morning.

MG: Nahanni Fontaine, go back a year. How were you feeling when the final report from this national enquiry was released?

MG: So I think it's really important for Canadians to understand that a year ago when the final enquiry report was released, that was the accumulation of, you know, at a minimum over 20 years of work from MMIWG families across the country alongside indigenous women to actually bring us to that moment in Canadian history with the release of the final report. So it was a sense of relief. It was a sense of accomplishment. It was a sense of hope that, you know, all of the work that MMIWG families and indigenous women did across the country from coast to coast to coast would actually translate into real action and plan on behalf of indigenous women and girls and to spirit to ultimately keep our women safe.

MG: Meggie, what about for you? Were you were you optimistic a year ago in the cumulation as Honiara's saying, of that 20 years of work to that point?

MEGGIE CYWINK: Well, good morning Matt. First, I'd like to acknowledge and say thank you very much for the opportunity, but also we still pray and we still think about the families that are missing and that the families that are seeking justice today after the one year anniversary. I'm quite frankly, I guess my my biggest concern, question, when the national enquiry was put forth last year was, you know, that the- it was huge. 231 calls for justice. Part. Part of my question today is. There was an interim report that was in November 1st of 2017, and nobody was really talking about what could have happened during that interim report and why the government didn't take some action back then. So I think there's hope. We want to acknowledge all of the families who testified and whose truth were told, because that is very important. But I find personally, of course, they didn't have a lot of faith in the enquiry itself for my family. But certainly it was a daunting task to think there was 231 recommendations.

MG: Nahanni Fontane, the government is saying this delay in the national action plan is in large part about the pandemic. What do you make of that?

NAHANNI FONTAINE: You know, unfortunate. I mean, of course, COVID-19 has affected, you know, not only Canadians lives in government and all across the world, but I think that, you know, Meggie is pointing out that there was the intern record. However, even before the intern report, we have dozens upon dozens of reports in respect of violence against indigenous women. And MMIWG to us. And there's been little, if any, action. And so I think it's important to understand that, you know, we also are currently under the administration of a liberal government where the prime minister has indicated that there is no relationship more important than his relationship with indigenous people. So under that, under that framework of his relationship with indigenous people being his priority, we're still a year later and we've got no action plan. So I get that COVID has disrupted all of our lives. But I don't think that it's a good enough excuse for the government not to put all of its resources that are at its disposal to develop a plan. And here's the thing is that there are many, many different plans out there that just need to be executed. And the government has a moral and a legal responsibility to execute those plans and expeditiously. Because while we wait, COVID or not missing indigenous women, girls and two spirited continue to go missing and or stolen from their families and their communities. That's unacceptable.

MG: Meggie, tell me a bit more to the highest point about what's happening in the absence of this action plan. What is the effect on missing and murdered indigenous women girls? And that push to try to get some answers without a plan to address that?

MEGGIE CYWINK: Well, you know, I want to go back to one point Nahanni made. In 1970 the Royal Commission on the Status of Women, I alleged discrimination against indigenous women. An appeals began. Now was 50 years ago. So I guess my question is yes, there's been a ton of recommendations that have been made, reports and enquiries, and nothing has really been enacted other than the national enquiry. What's happened is I believe that it continues to be a top down approach by the governments. Many families are still have no idea what the government is doing to date, are not inclusive of families as to what the National Action Plan should be. They're excluded from those conversations. And in fact, they had to sneak into one of the roundtables, Zoom meetings that the federal government had.

MG: What do you mean sneak into the meeting?

MEGGIE CYWINK: Well, the government had a Zoom meaning the end of May. And they released and invited people who are now national indigenous organisations, of course, provincial and territorial governments and some of the other organisations, women's organisations. But what we found was the code to get into the Zoom meeting was released. And I think about maybe 50 families just bombarded that meeting because they got the code and they were never invited to that meeting.

MG: You lost two family members that you did not participate in these hearings and you talked about the concerns that you had read off the very beginning of our conversation. Do you think your fears over this process were justified, looking back?

MEGGIE CYWINK: I'm sorry, could you repeat just the last part of that question?

MG: Do you think that the fears that you had over the process of this from the very beginning? Have they now been? Have they now been justified, given this delay in the National Action Plan?

MEGGIE CYWINK: Yes, I totally believe that we actually have done our own work with regards to my sister's case and the OPPO, the County Crime Stoppers, we've been involved from day one with the police. So we've had a very good success in what we've been doing personally. And, you know, the re victimisation and traumatisation of families after and during the enquiry was just unfathomable. It was really it was really hearing the stories of what families had to go through during and after the enquiry. To me, I safeguarded my own mental well-being by not participating, but also gave room for other families who really felt the need to testify on so that I didn't take up that space. I had absolutely.

MG: Nahanni Fontane, the government has said that they have implemented some of the recommendations, things like support for commemoration projects across this country, investment in housing for First Nations in Houston, Matis people. Has there been some progress, Nahanni?

NAHANNI FONTAINE: I mean, you know, I think that we all within our provinces and territories have seen some of those commemoration dollars flow for particular activities. First off, let me say that the commemoration dollars are not a lot to be able to do, I think, what a lot of the families would like to see an indigenous women supporters and activists across the country. So, you know, I think that in the grand scheme of if there's been any movement, it's we're very, very small percentage of movement thus far. And, you know, I want to just I want to just highlight from listeners and for Canadians that, you know, here's what we're talking about. First off, we don't have accurate numbers on exactly how many missing the murdered indigenous women and girls and two spirited there are across the country. But way back many, many years ago, NWAC, the Native Women's Association of Canada, did a statistical analysis. Back when we used to say there was 600 missing and murdered indigenous women and girls. And they compared that to white women's percentages within the Canadian population at that time. That translated into about 18000 white women. So fast forward now the RCMP does their national data set. They say 1200 that that represents about 36000 white women going missing on murder. We know that those numbers are not accurate. So let's just say at a minimum, across Canada, there's 2000 missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and to spirit, and that translates into 60000 white women and girls going missing or murdered. And so here we are a year after the final report, a year after spending 92 million dollars, a year after families getting, you know, giving so much of themselves to to to rehash and share the stories of their loved ones so that it becomes a part of the official Canadian record. I asked the committee is to understand what would the government's response be if it was 60000 white women going missing or murdered? And I can tell you definitively that the response would be fundamentally different than what we're seeing in respect of missing and murdered indigenous women. We're still waiting 50 years down the road to get some semblance of justice. So not only do we not have an action plan, Matt, but I think it's really important to understand that there are so many cases of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls who are not told. I work with Bernadette Smith. She's the MLA for Point Douglas, but she's an MMIWG family member. They're going on 11 years, waiting for some semblance of information and justice for their loved ones [unintelligible]. There are hundreds of families like that across the country. So I think that we have to put this really in perspective. And I think that Canadians have a responsibility to demand as well that the government takes us seriously and works with the MMIWG families at in at developing a plan and moving forward.

MG: Meggie, sorrowing interest in the last minute that we have. Are you hopeful that we're a year out and that there is not this national action plan, although it's coming at some point in time, we're told? Are you hopeful that when that plan arrives, it will bring some real change?

MEGGIE CYWINK: Yes, as long as the families are at the centre and the heart of the National Action Plan in the in need of devising it and implementing it. That's the only solution that I see that I have any hope in whatsoever.

MG: That it's not that top down approach that you talked about earlier.

MEGGIE CYWINK: Exactly.

MG: I appreciate you both joining us this morning. Thank you for your time. Meggie Cywink is from the Whitefish River First Nation. She acted as special advisor in liaison for Ontario families during the national enquiry. Nahanni Fontaine is Ojibwe and the NDP MLA for St. John's in Manitoba. Carolyn Bennett is the minister of Crown Indigenous Relations. She's been listening in and she joins us now. Minister, good morning to you.

CAROLYN BENNETT: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Last December, at an Assembly First Nations meeting in Ottawa, you said the federal government had planned to have an outline in a document on the action plan by the anniversary of the release of the commission's report. The National Native Women's Association of Canada says that instead of an action plan, there's a lack of action plan. Why isn't that plan ready?

CAROLYN BENNETT: Well, I think firstly, Matt, I want to just say that have to thank Meggie and Nahanni for their ongoing advocacy, but to all the families of missing and murdered and two spirit gender diverse and the survivors. Our hearts are with them and we won't let them down. And we will not let them down. We're going to get this done. It's complex as it's a national enquiry where it requires all the provinces and territories to respond and we are doing that work. But I think that this week it's been particularly emotional, I think, for everybody because of what's happened in the states and the fact that people are here in Canada are saying that systemic racism doesn't exist. And certainly in the families and survivors that I I've spoken to the last few days, that is unbelievably hurtful to them. And the fact that a survivor I know was treated so badly at a pharmacy over the weekend that this is a very tough time. And we I want to assure them that we will get this done. And I think the anniversary has meant that all the provinces and territories now are committing to do this work as what you sai said, this is a plan that has to be dealt bottom up and we're going to get it done.

MG: But why hasn't it been done now? Where's the plan? That's the question that they're asking, that it's been a year. The promise was made.

CAROLYN BENNETT: So, as you know, the [unintelligible] is one of the 231 calls for justice. And I I do believe that it's important to understand that many concrete actions have been done even long before even the interim report. We had set up those family liaison units in all victim services across the country. And Meggie was one of the special advisers that really made sure those work and that it's a very different experience for the families and survivors now as they navigate a justice system, get opportunities for healing. And frankly, I'm just so inspired by the work of the family lives on unit that Nahanni worked on in Ontario, where with their help, they've now commissioned a documentary, Audrey's Story, that where that case got reopened. And so I think that that is part of the hope. But in the changes in policing, in the investments in shelter that the really important legislation so that First Nations, Inuit, Matis can take back jurisdiction over their children and their youth. The issue around language. And that the shelters. This has been a hugely important. And so we know we've done many things in the areas that the national enquiry set out to help culture, justice, security. And so we will we will continue to do that. Now, our work is to co develop a national action plan with all of the provinces and territories.

MG: To that end, we've heard from a number of provincial indigenous ministers. They've told CBC that they haven't even been asked for any submissions towards a federal action plan. Why hasn't that outreach happened a year after the report?

CAROLYN BENNETT: That has not been my experience in all of the ministers that I've been speaking with. They are taking this very seriously and I think that they are also inspired by the hard work that Yukon has done in a totally combative way with the chief minister or with the government and the ministers there. And I think that everybody saw what happens when you build a really comprehensive action plan, bottom up, in that territory that it is an example for the whole country. So I am very optimistic that with now the constructive submissions from [unintelligible] that we will be able to - with a commitment that the AFN, with Women's Council has done to work regionally with them. We will get this done.

MG: I just wanted to say, though, I mean, ever getting it done. You have a lot of optimism. You didn't hear optimism in the words of Meggie Cywink or Nahanni Fontaine. They feel as though and we've heard this from a number of the family members who spoke as part of the enquiry. They feel as though they're not important that this relationship that the prime minister talked about, those were words, but that the actions haven't met the words. I just wonder how you address that sense, not just of real frustration, but it's a sense of abandonment in some ways that those families feel.

CAROLYN BENNETT: You know, I understand that totally in that they've been let down so many times before. But I do want to say to the families and to the survivors that you will be heard and we will put in place that concrete actions to stop this tragedy so that indigenous women and girls and two spirit and gender diverse people can walk safely wherever they are. One of the pieces of work that we need their help with and that we will work with, that is how to make sure that it is accountable and that this is an evergreen report. And this week we've been in the supplementary estimates five years of of six million dollars to make sure that the families will continue to be able to judge the results of the National Action Plan. But first, we have to put in place these indicators and the measurements of all the things that need to be done to keep women safe and what needs to be measured so that we will measure, adapt, measure, adapt. That's what a real action plan has to do. It has to say, you know what, by when and how. And if you're not getting results, you've got to change the plan. And that's what we're going to do. And we really are grateful for all the people like the Manitoba coalition I talked to yesterday morning there, that not only their family is on unit, but all of the programmes they're doing on the ground. We know that that our job is to support that work and for them to be able to come together, even virtually to make sure that we have the best plan possible, that we'll be accountable to those families and survivors, those brave people who testified at the National inquiry.

MG: There was a sense of distrust. You heard from Meggie Cywink there from some people around the process itself. They didn't believe in the process. They didn't buy into the process. Has that sense of distrust. Do you think, been borne out by this delay?

CAROLYN BENNETT: I think that, again, they people have been let down before.

MG: How is how is this time any different in terms of being let down, I guess is the question?

CAROLYN BENNETT: I think that what happens during the national enquiry in terms of some of the difficulties. What we found is is here in Ontario, a lot of the families that went to the family liaison unit were able to be supported in a way they didn't have to go to the national enquiry. And I think that that speaks to the kind of supports that are now in place. And so the experience on the ground is different. I am hearing from mental health support to, again, that's the kind of immediate investment that happened because of COVID have actually meant that the grassroots feel they are being listened to in terms of mental health supports in shelters and these shelters. So we know there is lot more work to be done. But I just want to say, again, we're not going to let them down, you know, as they have in the past and we will get this done. But dealing with the systemic racism in every single one of our institutions has got to be part of every Canadian's responsibility, as well as the sexism that was built into the Indian Act and in all colonial countries. That's what happened. Settlers arrive and think that their superiorly didn't speak to the women, that this is a job for all Canadians. And I'm very proud to be part of it. And I learnt so much every day and that the families and the survivors just inspire me every day.

MG: Just in the last couple of seconds that we have it, that's really all we have. What is this last week, just in terms of the protests we've seen in Canada and the United States told you about the urgency of getting this right?

CAROLYN BENNETT: Listening to our Black Caucus, listening to the survivors and the families, it's real. And every single day it goes by people are worried that someone won't come home safe. It's a, you know, thinking of, you know, Laurie Odjick and what happened in kids gone [unintelligible] to teenagers are missing and told they just run away when their purses and their cell phones were on the table. We are going to make those changes in the policing, the kinds of major crime units. This work is underway now and I think [unintelligible] and the racism strategy, we this is something that we have to remind ourselves every day that we have to deal with this and that the systemic racism is killing people.

MG: Carolyn Bennett, I appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.

CAROLYN BENNETT: Thank you.

MG: Carolyn Bennett is the minister of Crown Indigenous Relations. Any thoughts? You're welcome to contact us. You can reach us through the Web site at cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the contact link. Coming up in 90 seconds, the effect that this pandemic is having on people with disabilities and what we can do better when it comes to accessibility. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. Back in a minute and a half. Stay with us.

Back To Top »

Disabled people feel left behind in pandemic supports

Guests: David Onley, Elsbeth Dodman, Ariel Nasr

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. The COVID-19 pandemic is now in its 12th week. Can you believe that? Those weeks have taken a greater toll on some people than others? There is growing frustration amongst some people living with disabilities that they are getting left behind by the government's programmes and supports. David Onley as the former lieutenant governor of Ontario. He lives with a disability himself. And last month he spoke with the House of Commons committee about how this pandemic is affecting people and why it's an opportunity to create, in his words, a new, more accessible normal for Canadians with disabilities. David Onley, good morning.

DAVID ONLEY: Good morning, Matt. Good to talk to you.

MG: It's great to talk to you. How, as you understand it, how difficult has this lockdown been for people with disabilities across this country?

DAVID ONLEY: It's been very difficult for many. I think of friends, a couple of acquaintances who, you know, have literally been in their apartments or condos since it started. They have not gone out once. I can think of other people who have some degree of mobility, but have to get assistance for people to go to the lobby of their condo to pick up food that is being delivered. So in many instances, it's a very, very difficult, psychologically devastating situation. You know, we're told to trust the science and I agree with that 100 percent. But we need to do the maths. So as of today, according to [unintelligible], which is a great Web site in terms of tracking COVID, 7,579 Canadians have died, but 80 percent of them are people with disabilities who live in long term care centres or seniors homes, most of whom have disabilities. And that comes out to 6,063. So of the remaining Canadian population, the general public, the remaining 20 percent 1516 people have died so far and away the highest proportion of the public they're dying of COVID are members of the disability community.

MG: It's interesting you talk about long term care homes. We talked and we've heard a lot and we've spoken a lot on this programme about the condition in those long term care homes. It's been framed primarily as a seniors issue.

DAVID ONLEY: It has. And yet, you know, there is that haunting picture of the Camilla Care facility in Mississauga. You just pass by it quickly because it's a bunch of empty wheelchairs and unused walkers until you realise, as you do, the count that it represents 55 people in that facility at the time of the picture who died. So they were all using assistive devices, every single one. And, you know, the reality is that unless you're completely blessed and get it into your senior years, you will end up using an accessibility device because you by definition, have become disabled. And that doesn't include individuals like a member of our family. My wife's side of the family, one of her cousins, who as a relatively young man in his 40s, had no alternative but to move into a long term care home because of his condition and because he is physically disabled. The options just weren't there. He is not able to live an independent life. So this is how it gets forgotten, if you will. And what I'm concerned about expressed to the Commons is that despite the programmes that have been put forward and the sense of let's all work together on this and we all pretty much are people, the plight of people's living with disabilities seems to have been ignored to a real extent and folks have been left behind. And so my perception is, is that instead of just letting us slide into a new kind of normal, that we look at this situation in terms of both long term carers and senior homes and look at the members who are out in the general public, who do have a disability, and instead of just go sliding into a new norm. Use the existing legislation, the Accessible Canada Act and the LDA here in Ontario to deliberately remove physical barriers. By definition, therefore, making a healthier city and a healthier country.

MG: Let's hear more about what it's like to be left behind. Elsbeth Dodman has been listening, and she's an artist, an autism activist based in London, Ontario. Elspeth, good morning to you.

ELSBETH DODMAN: Good morning.

MG: What's this pandemic been like for you?

ELSBETH DODMAN: It has been, well, rather interesting. In some ways, my life hasn't changed that much. And in other ways it's changed quite a great deal. For instance, I was very fortunate to be working. Many of my colleagues on the spectrum are having a lot of difficulty finding work. And I was very lucky to have a good job at a local local store. And so I was laid off. We weren't essential. And so that disrupted my routine. And autistic individuals don't do very well with change in routine generally. So it it meant that a lot of the skills that I'd had sort of took a pause for a little bit. As I got more familiar with a new normal of being at home all the time.

MG: There was a coalition of 65 disability groups across this country that sent an open letter to the federal government saying that the community felt left behind, particularly financially in this pandemic. What's your experience been like in that realm?

ELSBETH DODMAN: I would agree that we've been on the margins of some of the financial aid that's gone out. Because I was employed, I was able to get in touch with CERB. Now, I'm also on ODSP, which is the Ontario Provincial Disability Program. And so it's a pension that gives me some funds every month. However, I have to report earnings so I can't earn too much money. And by too much money, I mean, if I work full time minimum wage, I'm earning too much money and they'll claw back.

MG: So I essentially say just to be clear, they claw back some of the ODP that you're getting.

ELSBETH DODMAN: Oh, yes. After two hundred dollars, it's 50 percent.

David, only you said that this- is you called this obscene, that claw back of the CERB.

DAVID ONLEY: I believe it is. I mean, I'm looking at this article right now and from that letter saying that the maximum amount a person on a CPP disability benefit receives is 1,352 a month, far less than the 2,000 CERB funding. And then you get into the claw back. It is just, you know, what I did with the review of the Accessibility Act for the province of Ontario, I described the situation in general as soul crushing. And this is a perfect example of something that's soul crushing. What in God's name are we doing? Clawing back this amount of money when the billions of dollars are being spent and we don't begrudge that. We know it's necessary for the billions of dollars of being spent. But for heaven's sakes, these people are living at the poverty line. I mean, we're talking about 14,000 dollars a year.

MG: Is that how it feels to you, Elspeth? Soul crushing?

ELSBETH DODMAN: It very much does. So I applied for CERB and I got it. And I wasn't sure that I would because I thought surely that my disability pension would disqualify me, but it didn't. And on the CERB application, they didn't mention the disability pension at all. So I applied and I was paid CERB money. However, when I received that cheque, I sort of had to pretend like I didn't have it because I wasn't sure how ODSP was going to react. And ODP was not forthcoming in how they were going to treat CERB. And I think that that was a real tactical mistake for neither CERB nor the provincial disability pension to inform users about how these programmes were going to work together or not work together to keep people in the dark.

MG: We heard from a spokesperson for Carla Qualtrough, who's the Minister for Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion, and the spokesperson pointed to measures like the enhanced GST credit, a disability top up for this CESB to the CERB itself, evidence that it's supporting people with disabilities and they promise that they will have more to share about supports for people with disabilities. What more would you like to see David Onley?

DAVID ONLEY: Well, what I'd like to see is a change in attitude because, you know, it's all well and good to be talking about these measures which are needed. And I agree with that. But they also have to take into account the folks that I'm just thinking about and I've mentioned obliquely earlier, are not people who use the Internet. They are not media savvy and they are completely reliant on other people helping them get to these things. It's just not obvious to them. And, you know, this is what. But what is obvious is that amount of money that goes from the government automatically into your bank account, it's tangible. And, you know, I'm just suggesting that what they need, what government needs to do is to make things tangible for the individuals who are coping with this situation.

MG: Is there an opportunity if we go to whatever the new normal is going to look like, that it's a better reality for people who are living with disabilities?

DAVID ONLEY: It's got to be. I mean, for instance, how many of us are going to be opening and closing public door handles? You know, at this point where we're not. Doors are barriers to people with disabilities. Automatic doors are a treasured discovery for a person with a disability who's uses like a scooter like I do, or a wheelchair, as many do. We have to move towards that. What about elevator buttons? How many elevator buttons are you going to push from now on? What about walking, crossing a crosswalk?

MG: What about work, Elsbeth? Do you see an opportunity in terms of changing access to jobs and work for people at disabilities?

ELSBETH DODMAN: Absolutely. On the one hand, I see this as as an opportunity that I desperately don't want us to pass up. People are very good at taking a terrible situation and saying, what can we learn from it? How can we make this better? And we have a huge opportunity to make this better. We have many persons with disabilities have been told, well, you can't work from home. You must come in and work at the office. Well, turns out you actually can work from home. And furthermore, it may even be beneficial to the office, to the company to not run a full office. So on the one hand, I do see some doors opening on metaphorically and and I desperately want that. I desperately want a guaranteed income. I know we talked about ODSP and how little how far behind that is from what the federal government admitted, an individual needs to live at the poverty line. And I make less than half of that out of my ODSP. I see an opportunity for a living wage, is what people say.

MG: Well, it seems like there are these opportunities. I hope they're seized. It's good to speak with you both this morning. Thank you.

DAVID ONLEY: Thank you, Matt.

ELSBETH DODMAN: Thank you for having us.

MG: David Onley the former lieutenant governor of Ontario. He was in Toronto. Elsbeth Dodman is an artist and autism activist. She's in London, Ontario. We've talked about this before. But if you see opportunities there in this pandemic to seize, particularly when it comes to people with living with disabilities, let us know. Reach us at cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the contact link.

Back To Top »

How the Taliban tried to destroy Afghanistan's film heritage, and the secret plan to stop them

Guest: Ariel Nasr

MG: This is The Current. My name is Matt Galloway. When the Taliban ruled Afghanistan, they made a point of destroying anything they considered blasphemous burning books, ravaging museums, and then in 2001, taking dynamite to the famous 6th century Bamiyan Buddhas. Amid all that destruction, you might be surprised to learn that a remarkable trove of films survived. How those films were preserved and what lessons they contain for Afghanistan's future are the subject of a fascinating new documentary. It's called The Forbidden Reel screening online. Now as part of the Hot Docs Film Festival and the director of the film Ariel Nasr joins me from Montreal. Ariel, good morning.

ARIEL NASR: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Gratulation is on this film.

ARIEL NASR: Thank you so much.

MG: How did you come across this story of the Afghan Film Archive?

ARIEL NASR: Well, you know, my father's gone. And as a child, I was always really fascinated by Afghanistan, but hungry for imagery of my father's country. You know, all his photographs, all the kind of visual heritage of my family was lost in the war, which is quite a common story there. And so when I moved to Afghanistan in 2008 to work as a documentary filmmaker, I was always looking for imagery of the past. And one day I stumbled on Afghan Film, the state's film production company. And, you know, they have this archive that has films that go back to the 1920s. They're beautiful works of art and they're shot on the background of Afghan history. So they show images that you would never see images that just weren't documented by a Western camera.

MG: Tell us about some of the films in this archive.

ARIEL NASR: So it really runs a [unintelligible]. You have feature films, job documentaries, some of you almost copied propaganda. A lot of it is from the state perspective. But there's also these really incredible auteur works. And one of the most important is called the House of History. It's a piece that was made during the 1990s during the Civil War, which is a part of Afghan history that is less well known. It's when the mujahedeen who were fighting against the communists, fighting against the Soviet Union, actually took Kabul after the fall of the Soviet Union and they ended up tearing the city apart. And it's a really terrible power struggle. One filmmaker was really able to document that. And it's a real truth to power documentary. It took me a really long time to find out where that director now lives. But it turned out in the end that he lived in Montreal, where I live. So that was an incredible discovery.

MG: The story of these films is one thing. The story of the film Surviving the Taliban is something completely different. As I mentioned in the introduction, the Taliban made it its business to go and destroy culture, to eliminate things that had found blasphemous. You would assume that these films would have been incinerated as part of that effort. How did they survive?

ARIEL NASR: Well, you know, that's a fascinating story, and it's a scene that we see recurring in afghan history, that even though there's different ideologies, people from different sides were still able to cooperate over things that were essential to them. So what you see is that during the Taliban period, and it's right around the time when the deputies at [unintelligible] were destroyed, that same band of kind of radical, a radical branch of the Taliban, came to the film archives to destroy the film. The archivists who were there actually hit this film. And the reason that they knew to do that was because an Afghan, a Taliban official, whose name is [unintelligible] kind of tipped them off that that the Taliban were coming until they were able to hide the film. And what they did as an act of subterfuge was actually offered them films that were less valuable. And they burned those films and thought that they had destroyed Afghanistan's film heritage. But which, of course, was was kept safe.

MG: You interview the Taliban official who decided to save these films. What did he tell you? What was it like to speak with him, knowing the risk that he took? Because he was told essentially: bring it the films, and if you don't, you know, you'll pay with your life.

ARIEL NASR: That's right. This is an ex Taliban official now living in Kabul in relative obscurity. And he came forward to talk about this story. And the fascinating thing was that he offered to come to the archive. That's where he felt comfortable to come and talk. And when he arrived, the archivist of today, and all of the people working under the current government, they welcomed him with really open arms. I mean, he was embraced and really welcomed. And you could see that culturally, you know, this is a man who is living a different aspect of Afghan culture in a very, very conservative, very religious. And yet, you know, all of these filmmakers and archivists were able to really, really, really give him a hero's welcome. And then he sat down and told his story. And what he said, amongst other things, was that it wasn't an official Taliban policy to burn the films. In fact, there was a band of radicals who were doing this kind of iconoclastic behaviour of destroying anything that they considered to be idolatry. And they included the films in that. But because he at the time had power. He was an official. He was able to find out about it early on.

MG: What would be in it for him as an Afghan man to risk his life? Sure, it might have been not official policy. But we know how severe the consequences would have been.

ARIEL NASR: No, I mean, that's really fascinating, because what he said was at some point he said, I did not agree that the film should be burned. Whether they were good or bad, they're part of history. They're part of our heritage. And he walks through the archives and look at the films. And he said, yes, these are the films. He seemed satisfied and kind of nodded his head and said, these are these are important. And he's happy that they were still there. But the point is, he felt that whether their content or sort of religiously orthodox or not, that he felt strongly that heritage should or should not be destroyed.

MG: There are some- a big budget, but certainly, you know, meant to be blockbuster films in this archive. Tell us about some of the feature films that are there.

ARIEL NASR: Yes, sure. One of the most prolific and most beloved filmmakers in Afghanistan is Engineer [Unintelligible] Ahmadi. And he used to shoot his own films. He made films that were really intended for the cinema and for it for entertainment across the country. One of them is The Epic of Love. And the Epic of Love tells this very epic story about two [unintelligible] families, two families who engage in the Afghan national sport of [unintelligible], which is a very violent, very interesting sort of horseback Polo sport, played with a dead goat.

MG: And so played with a dead goat.

ARIEL NASR: Played with a dead goat, yes. And these two families have a pair of star crossed lovers. Amongst them, it's kind of a Romeo and Juliet story. So, you know, it's kind of a classic tragedy. There's another one which tells the story of a soldier who was enlisted with communists. And it's interesting because it contains some elements of critique and was made under the communist government. I mean, it really runs the gamut. There's historical films about Afghan and Afghan queen, for example, who many centuries ago was persecuted for having an affair with her slave. There's even a musical film that looks very much like Bollywood.

MG: What do you learn about Afghanistan from these films? Many of them were made during the communist period in the 1980s. Well, what do you learn about the country that has faced so much through these films?

ARIEL NASR: You know, there's many things that come out. But one of the most fascinating is just to see that Afghanistan was at one time a place where violence was not part of the everyday experience and where women could and did live with a degree of freedom and have rules that were prominent roles in society.

MG: And also, you know, we could go around with her hair uncovered, could wear a miniskirt.

ARIEL NASR: Absolutely. I mean, that's the that's the immediate kind of visual confirmation of that, is that you see women carrying briefcases, wearing skirts and with their heads uncovered. And but you also see women officials giving speeches in front of hundreds of people. Even more than that during the communist period, you see women soldiers. And you see women bus drivers. So what's interesting is that during that communist period, which in many ways was a repressive time and a time when many war crimes were committed inside the capital. There was a real flowering of women's rights. And so I think overall, what you learn is that Afghan history is much more complex than what we've been led to believe.

MG: Complex how?

ARIEL NASR: Well, one thing I'd like to say about this film is that it shows that ideology in Afghanistan is never the last word. It's a country where tribal and friend relationships go very, very deep and often bridge those gaps of ideology. So at the core of the film, you have two best friends. One filmmaker on the communist side making films under the communist regime, the most successful film maker in that communist media and one living in the mountains making films under a trauma suit, who is the most successful of the wounded guerrilla leaders. And yet they are communicating, sending films back and forth. And so they're reaching across these ideological battle lines and actually cooperating. So ideology is sort of never the last word. When we look at Afghan society, I think very often all we see are those black and white. There's the Taliban. There is the contemporary government. There's this side or that side, communist or mujahedeen. But things are actually much more complex than that. And I hope that this film will help them complicate the picture by bringing images that were shot by Afghans that show a much more complex reality.

MG: What do we learn about the role of culture at large, which sounds obvious in some ways, but in a country where culture was squashed, but also in a time now where are normal interactions with culture are removed because of this pandemic? What do we learn about the role of culture and society through watching a film like this?

ARIEL NASR: I think one of the things we learn about culture is its resilience. You know, despite all of these wars, Afghan cinema culture continued to exist even after there were no government officials telling the filmmakers that Afghan films to go out and shoot material that continue to document what was happening during the civil war, for example, they continue to risk their lives to do that. And I think that's very inspiring. And that, to me, shows the commitment to a culture that really runs deep in Afghan society and just shows how resilient culture makers and artists can be.

MG: There's a line in this film that the only real way to preserve these films is for the films to proliferate. You're part of this push to digitise and preserve the films in the archive. Tell me a bit about why you want to do that and where you see these historical documents ending up.

ARIEL NASR: Right now, a lot of this material is locked away, so to speak, in an archive that is within the presidential compound, and that's going to send a very, very secure facility that can take months to access. Fortunately, when we see this film, the films were still more accessible than not. But, you know, they really should have been more accessible. I mean, it should be a click of a mouse away, ideally, because I really feel strongly that in order to kind of imagine a future for Afghanistan, it's really powerful and really important to have some visual evidence of the past. And in addition to that, right now, there's kind of a I would say there's kind of a renaissance of Afghan filmmaking with young filmmakers like Sara [unintelligible], whose film was that [unintelligible] and [unintelligible]. Who've had two films at Cannes recently. I mean, these are incredible young Afghan women filmmakers. I really think it's important as this new wave of Afghan artists emerges, that they have some reference to the art kind of heritage of the past.

m: Just before I let you go, you were able to screen this in Kabul before the world turned upside down and inside out.

ARIEL NASR: We had an incredible screening Afghan film in their old cinema that was built in 1968 with all of the subjects of the film and about 80 other guests. I mean, it was the most moving screening I think I've ever been to. For me, because their their eyes were wide open, their jaws were wide open. And afterwards somebody said to me, you know, you really taught us something about our own history that we had forgotten. And that's all I could ask for, really.

MG: That's really powerful. Ariel, it's a great film. Congratulations. It's a really interesting look into a society that I think people think they might know. But there is a lot of layers and nuance there that reveals many things that we don't know. Thank you so much.

ARIEL NASR: Thanks so much, MAtt. Appreciate it.

MG: Afghan and Canadian filmmaker R.L. Nasser, his new film is called The Forbidden Reel. Its screening is part of hot talks. The festival is taking place online through the 6th of June. And if you are in British Columbia, you can catch it later this month as part of the Doxa Film Festival. That's it for The Current four today. Coming up next on your CBC Radio One, it's Q Tom Power, of course, is the host of said radio programme. Hello, Tom.

TOM POWER: Matt, you strike me as a documentary kind of guy.

MG: I love the documentary films. With The Last Dance kind of consumed me and I saw so much of a film but a series. But now Hot Docs is just one of those great film festivals. It's like take a subject that you might not be super interested in and you learn more and more about it and suddenly become obsessed with it.

TOM POWER: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Love, Hot Docs and love hot dogs, both these things. I'm sort of obsessed with both and I learn something new from both, to be honest.

MG: From the hotdog itself?

TOM POWER: Yes, I like to think so. You know, different relish in ketchup conversations, you know, a different mustard combinations. I learn a lot. You can eat and watch at the same time. Titus Burgess on the show today and Kathleen Edwards is on the show today. And Maysoon Zayid talking about being a Stand-Up comic disabled during the pandemic.

MG: Jam packed. We'll listen for that. Thank you. By Tom Power. Q Coming up next. I'm Matt Galloway The Current. I'll talk to you tomorrow. Take care.

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

Thursday June 4, 2020 Full Transcript

More Stories Like This