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The Current Transcript for June 3, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

Arrest the cops. Charge the cops. Charge all the cops. Not just some of them, not just here in Minniapolis, charge them in every city across America where our people are being murdered.

MATT GALLOWAY: At the root of the current Black Lives Matter protests in Canada and the United States is a chasm of mistrust between many in black communities and the police who are there to protect them. In 30 minutes, order was first black chief of police. Peter Sloly is here to talk about whether that relationship can be repaired. If so, how? And if not, what's next? And later.

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There's a large underlying issue in Canada where racism gets swept under the rug and it's time that that issue comes up. We bring it out and we put it into the light and we address this head on.

MG: Canadian politicians of all stripes have been addressing anti black racism in Canada this week. To what end and what will they actually do about it? Our national affairs panel will discuss. Plus, sorting fact from fiction in the online stream of information coming out of these protests. We begin, though, on the streets of the United States and grave concerns for the state of democracy under President Trump. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

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Democracy and protests in U.S.

Guests: Ruth Ben-Ghiat, John Fund

MG: Protesters in New York City last night counted down to an eight p.m. curfew and defied it. Donald Trump has called in the military to clamp down on protests that continue to cross the United States. And police presence was heavy. But the demonstrations last night were largely peaceful. The city of Philadelphia also continues to be under curfew after several days of protests and looting. And as in many other cities, we've seen images of police advancing on protesters, shooting tear gas and firing rubber bullets. The Associated Press calculates that across the United States, at least 93 hundred people have been arrested since the death of George Floyd in Minneapolis. Jade is a Philadelphia activist who ended up in the thick of things on Monday afternoon out of concern for her safety. We are not using her last name. Jade, good morning.

JADE: Morning. Thank you so much for inviting me, appreciate it.

MG: Thanks for joining us. You were marching on the highway in Philly on Monday. What happened?

JADE: Yes, I was. So we actually started over by the police precinct in another neighbourhood. It was completely peaceful march through the city past city hall. We didn't end up over on the highway until much later towards the end of the protest, long before curfew started. And we ended up being kind of diverted there. There had been police who followed us throughout the entire the entire protest. And it was almost as much of them as they were of us. They clearly had eyes on us and they kept setting up roadblocks almost as if to divert us in the direction of which they wanted us to go. Same thing happened on Saturday and they trapped us. So this time when they put roadblocks, the security fixes right there. So we the organisers suggested, you know, let's go for it. Let's go on the expressway. And we did. And that's when things kind of went incredibly downhill.

MG: What do you mean? Describe what happened, as you say, when things went downhill.

JADE: So we marched out onto the expressway. We had our signs. We were chanting, saying George was named same on the tailor's name. And we ended up walking down the expressway. We went on the other side. So we were in oncoming traffic. We were stopping traffic, but we were doing our best to get out of cars way. And videos that were recorded show that we were staying away from the cars. Not a single car was touched. There was no damage of property. The entire process, the extent of the damage was maybe spray paint. And when we got about maybe 10 minutes of marching down the expressway, we went under a tunnel. And all I heard was just screaming. And people started running back down the highway. And when we went to go up the way that we had come down, it had been barricaded off by the police and they began shooting tear gas at us and pepper spray from all directions and dropping it down from helicopters. And the only way that we were able to get out is if we climbed over the 10 foot fence that separates the expressway from the rest of the city.

MG: What was going through your mind as all this is happening?

JADE: On. I, I honestly, I didn't think that I was in that moment. I felt like I was going to die there. It was-- you couldn't breathe. You were just suffocating. And everybody was almost clawing at each other, trying to help each other get up and at the same time, like trying to get our own breath. And it was over a thousand of us. And most of them- I'm 22. Most of them were my age or younger. There were a lot of teenagers, like kids, really. And no, we'd never seen or heard anything like that in their life. And I haven't either. It was just horrifying and so scary, especially because they never asked us to leave. So we didn't know why it was happening. We couldn't, we couldn't make it make sense in our minds. We just felt like animals.

MG: The police commissioner in Philadelphia, Daniel Outlaw, spoke about this incident yesterday and said that police had deployed tear gas after a crowd surrounded a police car and then threw rocks at police officers. Listen to what else the commissioner said.

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The option of deploying tear gas was selected when it became evident at that time other options were not effective .as I have repeatedly said, we will fully uphold everyone's right to peacefully assemble and protest, and we do not tolerate acts of violence and other criminal activity.

MG: What do you make of what the commissioner is saying? She's saying that this is going to be investigated internally.

JADE: You know, that evening after I clean myself up and showered and taken care of my eyes and trying to breathe properly, I made sure that I was safe. And I watch the news with my family. And I saw it, the press statement that Commissioner Outlaw gave and I was crying. I couldn't believe it. I was with the crowd and it was totally peaceful. There were people who were there investigating with us and they have since questioned, why was that reported? Why did anybody say that we were shaking cars? Why did anybody say that we were throwing rocks? Not a single person who much us did that on that day. And I can vouch for that. It didn't happen. So I don't know why. I don't know why the city of Philadelphia would endorse that. Considering what happened and considering the many people who were injured, myself included, it felt like a slap in the face just before I let you go.

MG: This is happening. And this moment is happening in the midst of the lead up to the election in November. The Democratic primaries were yesterday and you voted as well. Do you think that voting and do you think that that the democratic process is going to help lead to the change that you were out on the streets protesting for?

JADE: You know, there's a lot of different sides to that issue. I know a lot of people think that voting is our way out of this horrible situation, you know, police brutality, systemic racism, all of that. The voting is the first step. I don't know that I agree. I think the voting is incredibly important. We need to experience several of our civil liberties. And, you know, I mean, my ancestors died and fought for the right for me to vote. So that's why I vote. I don't think that this would be any different if we had a different president. I think that the reason these things happen and the reason that Brianna Taylor and George Floyd were killed is because the US and a lot of places around the world have an inherent, deep, systemic racist problem. And a lot of that is perpetuated by the police, not necessarily because they are evil people then because the system itself is deeply flawed and corrupt. So I think that voting is really necessary, but I don't think that voting is the solution.

MG: I appreciate you talking to us this morning. Take care of yourself.

JADE: Thank you so much for having me.

MG: Jade is an activist based in Philadelphia, and that is where we reached her this morning. What she experienced in Philly is being repeated across the United States.

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[Noise]

MG: That's the scene outside the White House on Monday. Police moved in on protesters firing tear gas, swinging batons, knocking protesters to the ground with shields. And then when the bodies and the smoke cleared, President Donald Trump walked across the street to St. John's Church for a photo op. Yesterday, the White House released their own video of his visit.

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MG: In that video, you see Donald Trump scored by that surging soundtrack, leading a procession of aides out of the gates of the White House. And then at his destination, standing outside the boarded up church, he clutches a Bible holding it aloft for the cameras. That scene and what preceded it has prompted some to accuse the president of embracing authoritarianism and undermining democratic values. Ruth Ben-Ghiat is a professor of history and Italian studies at New York University. She writes on authoritarian leaders, fascism and propaganda. And John Fund is a columnist for the National Review. Good morning to you both.

RUTH BEN-GHIAT: Good morning.

JOHN FUND: Thank you. Pleasure.

MG: Ruth Ben-Ghiat, what message did that video from the White House send to Americans, do you think?

RUTH BEN-GHIAT: Well, the it sent a message of strong government authoritarian rule, which because it was preceded by clearing protesters with tear gas, which was desired by Attorney General Barr. So you had in one short staged event, you had repression, you had false patriotism and piety, the holding up of the Bible by someone who is extremely a moral individual, Donald Trump. You had a propaganda. You had all the elements of what I call the authoritarian playbook, which Trump has been using ever since his campaign.

MG: You also have the general, Chiefs of Staff, wearing fatigues in that video. What does that say to you?

RUTH BEN-GHIAT: So I have spent years studying Fascism and Right-Wing authoritarian movements and the whole rhetoric of the heads of defence and other officials is a rhetoric of counterinsurgency that when they call the United States to the battle space and civilians become the targets of combat. This is an old right wing authoritarian technique and strategy. And, you know, looking with what the activists were saying and treating people like animals. And as she said, the police said, this is not going to make relations better. But Donald Trump is not interesting and interested in bettering race relations and whose interest is in domination with the word he used to speak to governors to tell them they should be tough. So the big picture is, you know, he's interested in, he pushed white nationalist agendas ever since his campaign and appointed people like Steven Miller and Steve Bannon in the past. So we have to look at the big picture of what Donald Trump's aims are in choosing a strategy.

MG: John Fund, the bishop who oversees St. John's Church, said that she was outraged about the president's event on Monday and said that his actions were, quote," antithetical to the teachings of Jesus". What do you think the goal of the president was in doing that and having the street cleared so that he could walk across the street for this photo op?

JOHN FUND: Well, it was clearly a political stunt. And clearly the president was upset about coverage of him cowering in the White House bunker and he wanted to project strength. I just wish that the bishop, in addition to criticizing the president, had also had even one word about the poor people whose small businesses have been trashed and destroyed and people who are living in fear of some of the more violent protesters. I just wish the bishop has been more even-handed.

MG: Does the president do this solely to energise, as they say, his base, or is this also directed at people who might be out on the streets protesting?

JOHN FUND: Well, look, I worked for a magazine that had a cover story when Donald Trump ran for president saying never Trump. So I have I make no excuses for the president. What my main problem is, is the president is a master marketer and his opponents often fall into the traps that he sets for them and they treat him far more seriously than he deserves to be treated.

MG: But he is the president. I understand.

JOHN FUND: But, you know, look at the coronavirus. If there were ever a crisis that a person with genuine authoritarian instincts would you seize and use to control it to consolidate power and be that instead, he's been a weakling. He's been attacked for not addressing the crisis properly. He has offered the political equivalent of a professional wrestler, lots of bluster and puffery, but usually devoid of any content beyond self-protection, self promotion. So I can prove how the president is leading his opponents into a trap with the following. We have a poll out today, a very respected morning consult poll that by two to one, the American people support supplementing the police forces in the cities with the military in order to quell the violence. The president won on election in 2016 with 46 percent of the vote. If you go to the latest Washington Post poll and if you go to the average of all the polls and real clear politics, he's at 45 percent. And one point down, this strategy of treating the president as an incipient Hitler is preposterous and isn't working.

MG: It was interesting because yesterday there weren't a lot of Republicans who would stand up and support or defend the president's actions in that moment. Ted Cruz, the senator, was one who would he was speaking yesterday on Fox News about the church visit. Listen to this.

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I'm glad the president went to St. John's Church. That's an historic church in our nation's capital city. That arsonist and vandals had firebombed and it was strong and powerful for the president to go there and say we will not be cowed.

MG: Ruth Ben-Ghiat, how do you think voters respond to this sort of imagery into what John Fund was talking about, the wake of scenes, not just a protest, but also of looting?

RUTH BEN-GHIAT: There's a reason that historically non-violent protest has worked far better against, you know, autocrats and in in situations of government brutality, because not only do you have, you know, people who commit criminal activities and you have infiltrators who can you know, it can work against the peaceful, non-violent protest aims of the majority. And when Trump tweeted that ANTIFA are going to be considered as terrorists, this had legally it had no teeth. But it was a message to the police, the National Guard, et cetera, to feel legitimised by the president, the United States, to treat protesters as though they were terrorists.

MG: You can you can you compared him to the Turkish president, Recep Tayyip Erdogan. What is it that makes him an authoritarian, in your view?

RUTH BEN-GHIAT: And he has used- the authoritarians have a playbook of, you know, corruption, which he used extensively in his response to coronavirus and it's propaganda. Charismatic personality and variants of violence. And authoritarians today, he's not an incipient Hitler because today authoritarianism doesn't work that way. Orban has jailed very few people, but he's domesticated the judiciary, the media. And he's now got dictatorial powers. He used the coronavirus to do that.

MG: John Fund, do you see him as an authoritarian figure?

JOHN FUND: Well, I'm not quite sure what newspapers we're reading because I see judges ruling against the Trump administration every day. I see ethics officers railing against the Trump administration every day. And I think that we're in a situation where the opponents of Donald Trump - and I'm quoting Cornell Belcher here, who was one of the most respected Democratic pollsters in the country, - we spend far too much time chasing whatever foolishness Trump throws out there, whatever baby throws out. And his masterful at it. By comparing him to an actual authoritarian leader in a country like Turkey, I think disparages the strength of our institutions in the United States, we have many faults, but we have a separation of powers that most countries don't have. It's called an independent judiciary. It's called an independent legislative branch, [unintelligible], which is held by the opposition party. So I'm just not sure whether we're reading the same newspapers because the courts have constantly been ruling against President Trump. And I have a list of 37 cases this past year alone.

RUTH BEN-GHIAT: No, I agree, I also I think it's very important to find commonalities. I also totally agree with Mr. Fung that Trump is a master marketer who leads people around like a people on a stick with his tweets and things. And what I'm chronicling is the rise. I've been chronicling the rise of an authoritarian leader. I, as a historian, I would never say that we are a full on toward tyranny regime. That wouldn't be right. However, there is also a hunger in many Americans, many of whom voted for Trump for authoritarian rule. And this is where Mr. Fund mentions that a lot of Americans are okay with using the military for domestic activity. So it's and in fact, when I pump when I tweeted the picture of Erdogan holding up the Quran, you know, 100 Turks wrote me and said, this is what Erdogan does. It looks to us like the beginning of authoritarian regime. In fact, this morning, Washington Post had an article that CIA analyst who for a living monitor, democratic breakdown and autocratic consolidation are extremely worried. And they see parallels. And these two peoples and all of the world if you parallel with what's happening in our country.

m: So you see threats to the American democracy as this unfolds.

RUTH BEN-GHIAT: I yes, I see I see threat to democracy and where we are right now. Mr. Fund is exactly right. Why not add a regime, but do these things start somewhere that the example of Hitler is often used. But it's not the best example. Mussolini was a prime minister for three years before he declared dictatorship. We don't have one party dictatorships in the non communist world that often anymore. So that's not what it would look like. And that's why I never called Donald Trump a fascist. I'm a scholar of fascism. And it [unintelligible].

MG: John Fund, in the last minute or so that we have, this is an election year in the United States. People are already saying that the president is, as David Frum said on this programme, sowing the seeds of mischief. Do you worry about the health of American democracy in this moment?

JOHN FUND: Well, as a scholar of fascism, I understand that professor's point of view. I would point out Mussolini never won the election before he became prime minister. It was a soft coup. Look, the president of the United States is the P.T. Barnum of American politics. He is a brilliant self promoter. He knows exactly what he's doing. He changes course constantly. If he really had the competence to become an authoritarian leader, he would have used the coronavirus to seize power, not exercised weakness, which is what he has done. So I think that we need to stand back, take a deep breath and understand that if you don't like Donald Trump, don't play into his hands. Don't take the bait. And Bill Marr of HBO's Real Time puts it best when he says, if you take the president seriously, you yourself will become less serious.

MG: It's good to speak with you both about this. Thank you.

RUTH BEN-GHIAT: Thank you.

MG: Ruth Benguet is a professor of history and talion studies at New York University and writes on authoritarian leaders, fascism and propaganda. John Fund is a columnist for the National Review. He was in New York City. The CBC News is next. And then calls to reform policing in the United States. Yes, but also here in Canada. And those calls are coming from outside, but also inside the force. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio one. We're back in six minutes. Stay with us.

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Ottawa police chief open to talk of police funding changes, but 'not out of retribution'

Guests: Peter Sloly, Dionte Jelks

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, how disinformation on social media is warping the protests we're seeing right now. But first, reforming policing.

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MG: The relationship between police and indigenous and black communities remains a focal point of the protests raging in Canada and in the United States. Some people, though, questioned the use of the word relationship at all.

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I'm really tired of using the term relationship as though these are two equal parties. The black community is not an equal party to the state sponsored police force. We are under subjugation to the state sponsored police force.

That's the activist and author Desmond Cole on the current. Earlier this week, calls for police reform are coming not just from those marching in the streets, but also from inside police forces themselves. Peter Sloly is Ottawa's chief of police. And in an open letter this week, he wrote that what's happened over the past two months from the pandemic to the tragic events in Minneapolis and trust issues with his own police force have, quote, "shaken him" as a police professional and as a person. Peter Sloly is with me now. Chief, good morning.

PETER SLOLY: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Do you understand the anger and the frustration behind the protests that we're seeing in Canada and the United States?

PETER SLOLY: I understand it because I feel it. I understand anger, pain, frustration, grief and the various expressions stemming from such a tragic incident as this one in which there is a genuine desire for justice, sometimes through punishment, and hence the rising demand to punish the person who killed Mr. Floyd. My thoughts are with him and his family and everybody who's been impacted directly or indirectly by this.

MG: Did you watch that video of George Floyd?

PETER SLOLY: I did.

MG: And as you watched it, what went through your mind?

PETER SLOLY: You can understand an unfolding tragedy and you can't understand how there were so many other options around which Mr. Floyd would be alive today. We would still be having these discussions around the need for police reform, institutional reform, societal reform. But we'd have one less example of how things have gone so terribly wrong.

MG: How would you describe the relationship between the police and black communities in this country.

PETER SLOLY: Ever fragile but improving? And that's from my perspective. I don't, obviously, do not speak for every person of colour and every black person who's experienced an injustice or a strong and healthy relationship with a police officer or a police service or jurisdiction. You've asked me a question. I've answered it. I believe in the course of my life in Canada, life on this planet and life as a police professional, things are better. There are definitely times like this where it feels like we're going backwards and forwards. But over the course of my 30 years in policing, the arc has been towards progress and not regress.

MG: What's it like for you to hear Desmond Cole say that because things are so unequal that it's not even fair to talk about a relationship between people in black communities and the police?

PETER SLOLY: I have known Desmond going back almost 20 years now, and I've seen him in various different functions from journalists to activists to political applicant. And I've had a lot of good relationships, sort of conversations with Desmond. And I respect his lived experience. Therefore, I respect his perspective. I don't share it, but I respect it.

MG: Let's talk about some of the things going on in your own force. This week, you announced charges against an officer for an apparently racist meme that was being shared amongst officers in your own force. How do incidents like that affect the way that the public views the force?

PETER SLOLY: Appreciate the term force, Matt. But it's a police service. And I recognise at the heart of this conversation is whether or not we act as a service or as a force, but as a police service. And that's the job that I have, is to serve first and protect all the one million souls in the city of Ottawa. And that means if there's a member of my police service who, for whatever reason, has lost their way, has expressed or done something that is contrary to our values and our oath of office, then I have to take immediate steps to correct it. Whether or not I can define the intent, I can clearly define the impact that it has and I have to address the impact.

MG: And what do you think that impact is?

PETER SLOLY: The impact in terms of the racist meme was an experience of racism by members of my organisation and by members of the community that I'm sworn to serve and protect. I can't prove the intent. But I can understand the impact. And so we've done everything we can to investigate that particular incident. But I want to be clear. Remediation for the individual officer in this case is not going to solve the larger problem. And that's why I also said the entire organisation will go through remediation process, including myself, because I am not absent culpability and responsibility for the actions of any of my individual officers. Everyone in my service is going to have to raise their game, myself included. We're going have to do it together, ideally, but individually, we're going to have to get to a better place. Institutionally, we need to get to a better place. And that was my commitment to resolve the investigation which we've done, and to advance the remediation and the modernisation of the organisation which we are committed to doing.

MG: What do you think? Is it the erosion of trust between police and black and indigenous communities in this country?

PETER SLOLY: Any one incident, particularly one, is magnified as the case we're currently talking about, will have a massive impact on trust. But I also know that every single day, every single person in the auto police service is doing something to advance it. And those are the ones we'll never get on TV. We know that look, we've been around this game long enough. Officers and social workers and lawyers and doctors and nurses do a thousand good things. And it only takes one moment of indecision or corrupt practise to undermine all of those efforts by all those professionals in all of those institutions. It feels like we're starting back at zero.

MG: And do you think that's fair, given the extraordinary power that the police services or police forces hold?

PETER SLOLY: I'm not saying it's fair and unfair to reality. It's a reality. It literally takes a thousand good deeds to make up for one bad one. And a very bad one like this, it takes 10000. And it'll take a long time for the policing institution as a whole to recover from this. It'll take not just good words like we're sharing here, but actual good deeds. And those deeds must lead to material change. Something must be tangibly better than it was before.

MG: So these issues have predated you at the Ottawa Police Service. This is something that's the Ottawa police have been dealing with for a long time. An internal report that came out last year in the wake of the fatal arrest of Abdirahman Abdi in 2016 found fear and mistrust between police and the black community. You talk about deeds. What are the deeds, the actions that you can take to try to repair that relationship?

PETER SLOLY: Well, I've said it in my statement on Monday, and I've done it for 30 years. First of all, we're going to have to listen, to learn, to listen a lot better than we have individually and collectively. We're going to have to get to a level of understanding and awareness better than we've been able to do individually and collectively. Most importantly for me, we then need to respond with different approaches to the way that we provide policing. And I mean that from the recruiting, hiring and the deploying over officers and what they're expected to do in community. And then the actual relationships. Go back to Mr. Cole statement, there is a power, there’s imbalance. Until policing as an institution learns the level of power that they have to their oath of office, learnt the impact that that has and then learn how to share power, share information, share responsibility for the actual job of policing. The responsibly for police in the city of Ottawa falls mainly on my shoulders and the two thousand members. But if the other million members of this city don't do something, we won't have a safe city. We won't have an inclusive city. We won't have a trusting relationship between the police and the community. Policing, in its modern form has always meant to be co-produced, not done by one to the other. It was always meant to be done one with the other. And in fact, it shouldn't be another. It should be us. In community and with community.

MG: Louis March is a youth mentor and a founder of the Zero Gun Violence Movement. Listen to what he thinks Canadian police chiefs like yourselves should be focussed on in this moment.

SOUNDCLIP

The most important thing that the police chiefs should address right now is building trust with the black community. I know they are trying their best, but there are certain police officers out there that their maverick. They are undoing a lot of the good work. Like when we work with our young kids, they will talk about the physical abuse and the over policing. One young person, I think he's 22 years old. I asked him how many times have you been stopped in Dallas? Asked them first in the last five years. He said over 100 times. I said there's no way, that is impossible. I said, let me make it easier for you. How many times have you been stopped in the last year? And he said 10 to 11 times already. And he said that his record is clean because he's applying now for a job where he has to have a clean record, but just because he's a black kid in this neighbourhood, he's a target.

MG: Chief Peter Sloly, when you hear about over policing as a chief, you can say one thing is your sense that the officers on the ground are following your lead. Are they are they doing what you're asking them to do and believing in what you're asking them to believe?

PETER SLOLY: That I want to be clear about one thing. I'm not blaming the officers on the ground for this. I see my officers are patrol with them. What I see is a very different narrative. I get it. There are experiences like that. And I'm aware of those experiences in this organisation and in my previous organisation. But let me be clear. I don't blame my officers. The policing institution - I've said it on your show, Old Metro Morning Show, now, in the Current show I'll say it again - that the focus on policing has been first and most on our reactive enforcement model that has been in place for my entire 30 years. It's a lot better in the last five years. I have to say, and a lot better in the last 10 years, but not anywhere near it needs to be policing should be focussed on prevention first. It should be focussed on delivering community policing, not the one or two officers who are the crime prevention officer or the school resource officer, the entire organisation. We should be focussed on forming true partnerships, which speaks to the issue that Desmonte raised earlier problem solving, information sharing, power sharing, partnerships to co produce outcomes that get at the underpinnings of crime, not focussed on responding perfectly to investigating a crime that already took place. A reactive model, is the most costly form of policing and it is the most ineffective form of policing. Until we change the operating model and move towards a health focussed, a resilience focus as opposed to an enforcement focus, we will fill our jails with people and we will not resolve the issues in the justice system and in the community.

MG: I was just going to say, is it possible to change an institution?

PETER SLOLY: Absolutely is. And there's examples all around the world, and I've spoken about them publicly. Police Scotland, under the overall governance model of Scotland, started teaching, stopped treating crime and particularly violent crime as a crime. Issues are treated as a health issue. We've seen examples in Bogota, Colombia, in the height of the Melin cartel, turning around a city that was overwhelmed by violence and poverty. And it didn't just reform. The police, reformed the community around the police and got to outstanding sustainable levels of lowered crime rates and traffic rates and education rates as a result of all these things. And there are examples across North America as well. Dale MacPhie in Edmonton and the work he did in Prince Albert around Integrated Service Live, the hub model out of a city of 100,000 people in the police service of less than 600 became one of the most standard elements in community policing in Canada. So massive change and reform that leads to sustainable outcomes at the community and the police will respect have been done and can be done. It just hasn't been done on scale yet.

MG: There are people who say that the change needs to be more dramatic, that it needs to be more systemic. Robyn Maynard is the author of Policing Black Lives State Violence in Canada From Slavery to the Present.

SOUNDCLIP

It's so critical that we as a society actually reconsider the ways that we use public funds and how we move away from a world in which public money is used on institutions that harm and hurt. And then we redirect that money into community safety, into public transit, into safe and decent living conditions, into access to who there are some, you know, racially delineated forms of injustice that we face. And we have this massive social investment instead in repression. So I think it's crucial and exciting that we're starting to reconsider the ways in which we think about public safety and moving that away from policing, which has never been about public safety, not for people who are black.

MG: The police budget in the city of Toronto is just over a billion dollars. In Ottawa, it's close to 320 million dollars. We've heard Peter slowly that idea on this programme a couple of times this week to defund the police. What do you make of that idea?

PETER SLOLY: [Cutting] Details that I've spoken about that publicly as well. I believe there's enough money in the system. And I've said that we could actually sustain a loss of resources because when the money runs out, the thinking starts. I didn't invent that term. That was what long before me by someone much more wise than me. There is enough money in the system. We're not spending it in the most effective way. We're spending it on the wrong priorities and we're spending on the wrong way on those wrong priorities. No, I'm not looking for anybody to take money out of my operating budget. I'll be clear about that. There's a lot of investments that need to be made in this organisation, predominately around the issue of building trust and building police service members who are healthy and capable of going out into dynamic, diverse communities and delivering the best service. But if we look at the way the justice system is focussed around enforcement and incarceration, as opposed to prevention and integrated service delivery to stop risks and community before they become criminal matters that require a criminal response, then yes, police should be integrated more closely with public education, public health, social services, the not for profit sector that need to be sharing information, just resources [cross talking] together.

MG: Just to be clear, in a situation where, you know, the pie is only as big as the pie. Does that mean practically taking money away from a police force like yourself to redirect it into community efforts so that police wouldn't be called in the first place?

PETER SLOLY: Matt, I'm a big believer in growing the pie, not dividing the pie. And I've said that again publicly. Let me answer your question. If it came down to, look, we only got one dollar. That's not the case. We only got one dollar. How do we divide it? If I sat down with a group of people and rather than a period of pain and anger and frustration, well, give me your portion. How do we actually make this dollar go as far as it can? And who's willing to make sacrifices and do something differently? That's a different discussion than punish the police, disband the police, defund the police. That's a much more healthy discussion. This discussion was had around disbanding and defunding institutions where people with mental health and addictions were. And what happened was they did just that and they empty those institutions into the street. And guess where they entered them into the only 24/7, 365 public service, the police. And look at the problems that has caused. I'm all up for this conversation, but not out of retribution, out of something that is geared towards construction of a new system that serves all people focussing on health and resilience and building community, allowing trust and service delivery to be done differently than it's ever been done in my 30 years in policing. That's the conversation I want to have.

MG: Just before I let you go, we'll have a minute or so left. You're a police officer. You're the chief of police. You're also a black man. And you've talked about racial profiling in your own life before. What sort of responsibility do you carry to get this right? I mean, there's external pressure, certainly, but also internal pressure.

PETER SLOLY: It's the life I've lived, so it's kind of hard for me to say anything that I don't know, Matt. You know, I would go home last night after dealing with this for a solid week and a 14 hour day. And I'm talking to our Justice Rabani folks here and talking to our frontline officers who are breaking down in tears because they're black and they don't know what the answer is. And I'm talking to senior white leaders in my organisation and politicians and nobody knows what the answer is. And everyone's looking to someone like me or someone, a young person, for the answers. Nobody has that answer. I go home and I sit down with my 13 year old daughter and she pours out her grief and her pain. And she asked me questions as a father, as a black man of 50, 40 years old, as an immigrant to Canada and, yes, as a police chief for the Ottawa Police Service, where she goes to school and works and communicates with her friends. And these are the tough challenges we all have to deal with. I'm no more burdened than anybody else, but we all have a responsibility to do more than just expressions of grief and anger. We have a collective and individual responsibility to get to a place where we're doing something different and better for each other with each other.

MG: Peter, Sloly, good to speak with you. Thank you.

PETER SLOLY: Thank you.

MG: Peter Sloly is the chief of the Ottawa Police Service.

[Music]

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio one. My name's Matt Galloway. Darius and Maurice Jelks. Two young black men were shot and killed in Chicago on Sunday afternoon, and they were sitting in their car at an intersection when another car pulled up alongside and someone in that car shot the fatal bullets before speeding off. The murders happened amidst protests in that city. Dionte Jelks is a school principal, football coach as well, who lives with his wife and three young boys in Langford, near Victoria, on Vancouver Island. Darius was his brother. Maurice was his cousin. Dionte Jelks. Good morning.

DIONTE JELKS: Good morning.

MG: I'm sorry for your loss. You must be-- I can't imagine what you and your family are going through right now.

DIONTE JELKS: I really appreciate that. It is. It's been a tough couple of days and I was just dealing with my anguish, dealing with my grief and trying to put together, you know, what happened and why.

MG: Tell me a little bit about your brother and your cousin.

DIONTE JELKS: I grew up with my brother and cousin on the south side of Chicago. We were very tight. We lived together at my grandmother's house. So, you know, we were very tight until I went off to high school and moved. My brother was a very bubbly person that always lived. We always joke that I called him every day on my way home or my commute to work just to check on him about my family. See how he's doing. And, you know, the conversations start all quite seriously. Within 15, 20 minutes, the conversation were laughing and joking. You know, that's the type of person he was. My cousin, you know, has troubles during his early years, but he's worked so hard to turn his life around and, you know, just recently bought his first house for his family a month ago. And I just-- pretty tough to deal with. The way that, you know, you have two young men that have been dealing with adversity for so long in their life. And, you know, they finally got to switch and had a mind to turn around and to work hard. And then this happens.

MG: What do you know about what happened on Sunday night?

DIONTE JELKS: Not too much. I just know it was very chaotic on the south side of Chicago. There was no police presence at all. And just so you know, rioters and looters just were out of control. And, you know, there was no one there to really support or really to direct traffic or anything. So it was just chaotic. You know, I believe there are instigators that, you know, really started the riots and once everything started over. You know, they hightailed out of the city. And just like people just continue to loot and to violate rules. And it's just one thing led to another. And, you know, we're still waiting for answers to see who murdered my brother and my cousin.

MG: What is it like for you in a completely different setting, watching what's happening unfold in the United States, it's happening here in Canada as well, but I mean, I talk about Chicago and what's happening there. What's it like for you to watch that from a distance?

DIONTE JELKS: It is unbelievably tough looking and watching CNN every day, watching WGN News every day, just trying to make sense of what was going on. I'm torn apart. You know, on one hand, I believe I should be there, to support of my family and helping them. And other hand, you know, I'm dealing with the dilemma of is it safe for me to go there to bury my brother, to bury my cousin? No. Will I be killed or go in there? Would I be able to get around roadblocks?

MG: There's also a pandemic that's unfolding right now.

DIONTE JELKS: Exactly. You know, and the risk of bringing COVID-19 to the island. Where we're doing such a great job of keeping our island safe. You know, always in my heart, always in my mind, it just keeps me up pretty much all night just trying to figure out the right thing to do.

MG: You grew up in Chicago. How different is your life for you and your family on Vancouver Island.

DIONTE JELKS: It's night and day. I tell my boys every day. No, be grateful for what you have, because to me, your mother, we came from very, very difficult backgrounds and we had to survive. We had to fight where to claw fit everything that we have. And we teach our boys to be very grateful for what they have in life compared to Chicago, to the island is quite different. My sons, they have every resource within a snap of a finger. They can walk right down a hill. They can go to a YMCA to go swimming, to work out. They can go, within walking distance, they go to the beach. We have a new bike park. We have mountain. We have bike [unintelligible] in Chicago. When I was a kid. I had none of that. No, there were no resources in my community. There's no library, no housing. It was terrible. No infrastructure, no pools, no sports team. We had nothing. We just figured out infinite fending for ourselves.

MG: That leads to the protests that we're seeing. I mean, Chicago is a very divided city. We were talking about this earlier this week between white communities and black communities and that fuels some of the protests that we're seeing right now. What do you see - as somebody who has deep ties in the city - do you see a moment of optimism for change in what's going on right now?

MG: It's kind of very tough to be optimistic because, you know, every so often, you know, we're at these marches where these protests again, then it just reverts back to its original state. You know, you just mentioned Chicago will be segregated. It's one of the most segregated cities, not only in the United States, but in the world. The neighbourhood I live in, I live right across. It's called Bridgeport and it's a in [unintelligible]. And it was separated by train tracks. And that's when you walked over to the white neighbourhood. You know, in certain occasions my mother will have to walk through. And she was she was chased. You know, I had friends that lived over there. And the one thing that brought us together, it was sports, playing football and playing baseball together. That's what brought us together. And it's so disgusting. Then in 2020, there's still segregation in a big city over the metropolis of Chicago which you think it's great? Well, you could go shopping, go have fun, take a family vacation. But people really don't see the ugly mess that Chicago is.

MG: I'm really sorry for what you and your family have gone through. And I hope these next few days are brought together through family, whether it's close or virtual. But that that that helps you make your way through this really difficult period. Dionte. Thank you.

DIONTE JELKS: Thank you. Appreciate that.

MG: Dionte Jelks is a school principal and a football coach, he, his wife and three young boys live in Langford on Vancouver Island. And he is mourning the death of his brother and cousin who were shot in Chicago on the weekend. Coming up in 90 seconds.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: We think that because we're Canadian and we're nice it doesn't happen here, but it actually does.

VOICE 2: When you go in a store, you can see the people falling around. When in a self checkout and making sure you pay for everything.

MG: Facing racism here in Canada. After the break, we'll convene our national affairs panel to talk about what politicians are talking about. After that talk, what will the action look like? We'll find out. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio one.

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National affairs panel on political response to anti-racism protests; Disinformation online about the unrest

Guests: Susan Delacourt, Niigaan Sinclair, Emilie Nicolas

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current listen carefully to this.

SOUNDCLIP

[Silence]

MG: This isn't actually dead air. It's a very long pause. The prime minister, Justin Trudeau, was just asked about his reluctance to answer questions about the actions of the U.S. president and the crackdown on protesters. 21 seconds later, this is what the prime minister said.

SOUNDCLIP

We all watch in horror and consternation what's going on in the United States. It is a time to pull people together, but it is a time to listen. It's the time to learn what injustices continue despite progress over years and decades. But it is a time for us as Canadians to recognise that we, too, have our challenges, that black Canadians and racialized Canadians face discrimination as a lived reality every single day.

MG: This country obviously is not exempt from what we're seeing unfold in the United States. And our national affairs panel is here to talk further about that. Niigaan Sinclair is a columnist for the Winnipeg Free Press. Susan Delacourt is national columnist for the Toronto Star. She's in Ottawa. And Emilie Nicolas is a columnist for Le Devoir in Montreal. Good morning to you all. Emily Nikolaou, what did you make of that really long pause before the prime minister answered Tom Perry's question?

EMILIE NICOLAS: You know, that pause came occur after a question about Donald Trump. But it came as well after the images of the family of George Floyd that we've been seeing over the last couple of days. It came as well after a series of things that we have been outraged to see in the U.S., but we haven't been facing in Canada. So I think any but anything else but a pause and silence would have been received, weirdly. People need to understand that people who, you know, are killed by the police, their family in Canada do not receive the kind of phone call from mayors or premiers with prime ministers that we've been analysing whether or not, you know, Donald Trump or Joe Biden have been making the best phone call. Do not make those calls in Canada. People here do not have psychological support because, we the police killing someone is not considered a criminal act. And so the families of victims of police brutality in Canada do not get public support. And so they're treated as a hot potato, basically by our political class because, quote unquote, investigations are ongoing. And so as a result of that, there's a lot of things, I think, to be ashamed of in terms of how people are appalled by this, but by what's going on with the family of George Floyd without actually having done their home homework at home. People have been saying, yes, we need to listen, we need to do things differently. But people have been given concrete ideas for years. Tons of recommendation about things to be done differently. And I think after the pause, what needs to come is also actual announcements, not just consultations, because those recommendations have been out there for a minute.

MG: Susan Delacour, there is the pause to Emilie's point, and then there are the words that follow the pause. How would you characterise the way that the prime minister has responded to the protests against anti black racism that we have seen in the United States, but, yes, here in Canada as well?

SUSAN DELACOURT: You know that the thing about silence is that everybody can write their own story into it. And I actually think there are three stories that you could write into that silence. Yesterday, there was there's the diplomatic silence. The prime minister has been very careful around Trump after a couple of years ago getting on the wrong side of him and seeing trade retaliation. So there is that there's the prime minister doing the diplomatic silence with Trump. That's one. There's the introspective silence where the prime minister himself [unintelligible] the election, we know brought these things out. The prime minister has his own chequered history on racism and respect for black and racially different people. And then there is the reflective silence where he is a prime minister and he has to reflect on what is going on here. And I take it that he and his team have been talking to black members of the governments, whether their staffers or MPs, and finding that it is happening here. He mentioned in the House yesterday that people are experiencing this in the very corridors of power that they're sitting in. So Emily's right that that the pause is not enough. And the words are not enough, Jagmeet Singh said this yesterday, too. But I think there's going to have to be a conversation about what happens. And I think whether there's room for that and all the noise that's coming from the United States and also pandemic, here is another question.

MG: Niigaan Sinclair, to Susan's point, how much credibility does the Liberal government have amongst black and indigenous Canadians when it comes to addressing systemic racism? This is a prime minister who admitted that he can't actually recall the number of times, for example, that he wore blackface.

NIIGAAN SINCLAIR: Well, what I would just point out with Emilie and Susan's points is the complete baffling ability to look at this situation. The United States, the U.S. president threatening to send the military against U.S. citizens. It requires all of us to have a moment of pause. And it's a absolutely a moment of insanity where we're on the cusp of fascism, looking at to the south of us. And if we don't take a pause, I think that will be a that's an indication that we've lost the humanity in all of this. And so while I appreciate the prime minister, I also recognise that within the country and I know that was, you know, when would it take, for example, here we had multiple police shootings of indigenous peoples rate within our very streets in the open days of the pandemic. And, of course, the situation in Montreal involving the police. So certainly Canada has nothing to be proud of in terms of the relationships between institutional forces and indigenous and black communities, because the bottom line of it is that we know the problem. We know that the issue is over policing and over incarceration of black and indigenous communities. But yet nothing is ever done about it. Multiple reports, multiple recommendations yet very little changes. In fact, things get worse and worse and worse, particularly with a pandemic.

MG: The premier of Quebec, Francois Legault, was asked on Monday if he believed there was a problem with systemic racism amongst police forces in his province. Listen to what he said.

SOUNDCLIP

I would say that, yes, we have to admit that we have some problems in Montreal, in Quebec. But the problem is not as worse as in the United States. I would say, but still, I don't like to see that few. It's a real, very, very small minority of our police people that they choose a bit that people arrested. So I would like that we stopped that.

MG: Emilie Nicolas, what's the response been like to the what the premier said there?

EMILIE NICOLAS: I think people need to know that there was a campaign that started in 2016 for Quebec to do a commission into systemic racism. It was under the Liberal government at the time, and the connectable has had failed then to implement that commission and they had failed as well to officially recognise that systemic racism exists. And so the CAC is just continuing this policy as well. That's been there as well by the [unintelligible] Quebecois. Only Quebec City that in Quebec recognises officially that systemic racism is a thing. So there was nothing surprising there. The few bad apples theory, it's been there for a really long time.

MG: And how does Bill 21 fit into that bill, which prohibits the wearing of visible religious symbols in public service? People have said that that target specific communities. How does that fit into the larger conversation around systemic racism in Quebec?

EMILIE NICOLAS: Well, that's only one piece, I'd say. One other important piece that people may be less aware of is [unintelligible]. So basically, it was it was of Canada made a big inquest or into enquiries into indigenous women being raped by the police in [unintelligible]. And then that started the whole commissioning kickbacks that just finished last year about the relationship with Quebec services, including police and indigenous people. And in that report, you have indications as well that racism is systemic. So all of those things are there as well. There's been as well a consultation they just finished at the city of Montreal into systemic racism. And so the mayor of Montreal, they just started, I don't know, a couple of months ago, to use the word systemic racism. And so this is very much a moving ground. And, yes, Bill 21 is one part of that conversation on the racism that's happening in Quebec. But really, if we're focussed on what's going on with police and communities just to be able to get politicians to actually name the issue is an ongoing battle. The SPDM released a report of action plan actually last fall in which it says there might be some discrimination acts, but nowhere is the word racism in there, as well as BVM keeps saying as well that police are not racist, but maybe perhaps eventually, there are some procedures that we have that are not ideal. And so that's very much the status quo. But that's I mean, we've just heard as well. Doug Ford say similar things as well about systemic racism. I'm not sure that Jason Kenney has a very different opinion on the matter. I was on the air with Stockwell Day yesterday. So there's a belief in some conservative circles as well that. So I would not as well want to give the impression that this is just a Quebec thing. And people who are on the right of the spectrum generally are still there. And it's unfortunate because it slows down the conversation if you want to get to the solutions. We cannot keep having a debate of whether or not racism exists. And as long as we keep having that debate because people are like, yes. But does it exist? Is that the right term? You know, there's never going to be a right objective next to the word racism. Like, there's no right way to protest. There's never going to be a white way to talk about racism with people who just don't want to talk about racism and specifically people who just don't want to do anything about it. That's where we're stuck in Canada, unfortunately, not just in Quebec.

MG: Susan, I could hear you in the background. You talked a little bit about the fact that people were talking. What's the action? If every politician across the spectrum is addressing questions of racism, what happens then?

SUSAN DELACOURT: I was really hoping that Emily was going to refer to that moment last night with Stockwell Day on the air. I had a little conversation with him on Twitter afterward.

MG: He talks about how he was teased in school for wearing glasses.

SUSAN DELACOURT: And equated that with racism. And I think, you know, Lillico and Emilie's face was priceless, actually.

MG: Turned into something on social media.

SUSAN DELACOURT: Yes, it was. It was quite something. But the serious point here and Emily's making it is that we're skipping over something here. I think there it is the oldest arguing trick in the book, actually, beyond racism. It goes to sexism, too, is to take criticism, even self-criticism, as an insult. And this is the reaction we've seen. That's the backlash. This was the point that Stockwell Day was trying to make, I think was that to say that Canada is racist is to insult us. And I think we've got to get past that. It doesn't get us anywhere. I was asked last night. The person with whom I live was quite smart. Whether I thought that were talking about an institutional or individual problem. And I think obviously we're talking about both. And I am conscious of the fact that I am a white woman talking about this. But I go to my own experience sort of dealing with sexism. When I first came to Ottawa and there were there always the two ways of looking at it. There was the institutional you know, we've got to get numbers up. Is there a systemic hiring problems, et cetera, et cetera? That's a good start. But I think the thing that really turned here in Ottawa was the Me Too movement. And when individual people started telling their stories and started seeing what was happening to them, I think that makes people reflect on an individual level. I think we have to have more conversations about this. And I think you're starting to see that. You see some members of Justin Trudeau's government, such as Greg Fergus or Ahmed Hussein, talking about the fact that this is happening to them to this very day. But I think politically, this conversation has to be individual and institution.

MG: Niigaan Sinclair, to Susan's point, when she talked about Me Too, that was a turning point. Is this moment something is it going to mean more than talk or is there actually going to be something substantive that comes out of this moment in this country to address the issue?

NIIGAAN SINCLAIR: Well, I think certainly that there's the potential for a turning point. However, I've been unfortunately seen too many points in the past in which you think that there's a cusp of change. Listen, the bottom line of this is, is that inclusion won't solve this issue. And that's oftentimes with this is classified to be as if we just get enough brown faces in government. We just get enough brown faces in the police force. We just get enough Brown faces in wherever. The problem systemically is, is that within the very fabric of the country itself, within Canada and the United States, there are principles and there are attitudes that are taught behaviours around brown and black lives and the ways in which they're framed. And this is not about politicians going All Lives Matter. This is about recognising the specific experiences of black and indigenous peoples, and particularly communities like indigenous women who go murdered and missing in the tune of thousands and nothing is done about it simply. Even the prime minister said that a genocide is occurring. But then just moved on the next day. This continual process of systemic discrimination and institutional racism, that is the fabric of the country itself that is built within laws and policy. And these things have to be looked at in a really hard and difficult way. And it involves really difficult conversations for not just black and brown people to have those conversations and inspire those, but for people all throughout segments of society, particularly people within positions of power, which tend to be middle aged white men, to have those conversations and to be able to critically look at themselves, look at this processes which have created them and then make some very difficult decisions by listening twice as much as speaking.

MG: Emilie Nicolas, in the remaining minute or so that we have, are we ready to have those difficult conversations that Niigaan is talking about?

EMILIE NICOLAS: I don't know. But there the question is, is where do we start? And it's going to be a different answer for for everyone, depending on their on their situation. But one suggestion that I might have, actually, for journalists who might be listening to us, there was just a report that came out last night from Ricochet Media who's been interviewing journalists who have been injured or Iraq by police while covering protests in Canada. It'd be really interesting if there were more journalists willing to speak as well on their interaction with the police while they are covering protests, because we've been seeing that situation in the US. Definitely live on the air and many times in the last days. But for journalists to speak out. It'd be great as well to give us a better idea of what the situation is. And the second thing is [unintelligible, which is an investigation journalist with Radio Canada, Dataquest, said something about six months ago about how the police is only giving information to the journalist who write stuff that they like. And that when you are not writing something, an article that they like. They are not giving you the inside information anymore and that there's apparently this system that was going on inside to ask you and their communication services to control how they would be portrayed in the media, by making sure that journalists who report on the police only get inside information when it is journalists that report saying things that the police likes. And I'm curious to know whether or not that's a system or that's a way to function and that's also in place elsewhere in Canada. And so if there are any journalist who would like to speak out about that. You know, I've got so many people asking me how to be an ally for journalists to actually say what is their relationship with the police for city councillors or trying to negotiate a budget who if they could say publicly what is their relationship with the police? What is the intimidation that is going on? How those negotiations happened? I think this is a public interest. And we never her hear from city councillors, from people at the municipal level as well. Tell us what exactly is going on with how the police's negotiating their budget and how the conversation happens when they're asking for always more and more and more militarisation as well. How are those conversations happening in Canada? I'd really love to know more about that.

MG: It's great to speak with you all about this. We will follow. I mean, obviously, this is not the end of the conversation. It feels like the beginning of the beginning in some ways. Thank you all for being here.

GUESTS: Thank you so much. Thanks.

MG: Niigaan Sinclair, columnist for the Winnipeg Free Press. Susan Delacourt, national columnist for the Toronto Star. She is in Ottawa. And Emilie Nicolas is a columnist for Le Devoir in Montreal. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. I Matt Galloway. People have been glued to our screens, ears perked to the radio, soaking up everything that's been happening when it comes to these protests unfolding. In the United States and here in Canada. And with a constant stream of information comes a stream of disinformation and misinformation which can fuel conflict in these tense times. Jane Lytvynenko is a senior reporter at BuzzFeed News. She specialises in disinformation. Jane. Good morning again.

JANE LYTVYNENKO: Good morning. How are you?

MG: Thanks for coming back. How would you describe the social media landscape when it comes to the protests that we're seeing?

JANE LYTVYNENKO: Look, it's extremely busy. Right now with the protests that are happening in the U.S. and in Canada, everybody is online and everybody is uploading photos and videos, sharing information, sort of trying to get good information out. But with such a huge influx of photos and videos, we're seeing people either accidentally or on purpose, depending on the case, spread bad information. That's things like, you know, fake accounts or videos that are taken out of context. And we've been we've been keeping track over the last week of all the disinformation that is spreading online and have had to debunk, you know, over 50 different hoaxes.

MG: Give us an example of a couple of those things that that that have caught your eye that would not be true, but perhaps have been picked up by people online.

JANE LYTVYNENKO: Right. Well, one of the things that we're seeing is photos and videos that are taken out of context and sometimes in good faith. It's really difficult to know what's happening on the ground. So what we're seeing is, you know, for instance, a video that appears to show policemen destroying their own car. But if you look at videos from earlier on, they are taking off a windshield that was already broken. We're also seeing a lot of people sort of maliciously impersonate parts of the social movement, anti fascist movement ANTIFA for short. We're seeing fake protest posters that weren't put out by organisers. So there's both sort of accidental misinformation by misinterpreting a video that people are seeing and malicious disinformation being spread about the protest itself.

MG: That accidental part is that because people have talked about the enthusiasm around this, that people are caught up in this moment and that when something appears online, they may not do the vetting that's necessary, but they just share quickly because it looks like a great picture or it looks like a great video.

JANE LYTVYNENKO: Yes. Yes, absolutely. And, you know, it's important to say that a lot of the instances of police violence and police brutality we know about because they were filmed, because they were put on social media. So we by no means want to discourage people from posting what they see. The important thing here is to give as much context as possible as to what people are sharing. And if you're sharing something that didn't come from you or people that you know directly to sort of take a step back and ask yourself whether there's more context to be found here.

MG: Who would be doing this deliberately?

JANE LYTVYNENKO: We have some evidence of white nationalists deliberately creating Twitter accounts to sort of derail the movement it's calling for violence. So that is definitely one group of people that we're keeping an eye on through this because they're really seeking to make the movement look bad.

MG: And the point of that would be to to fuel their own aims and fuel their own goals?

JANE LYTVYNENKO: Yes, of course. Just as on the ground, there's been some reports of people who are not associated with the movement, sort of creating more violence or looting online. We're seeing very similar things. People who are not associated with the movement, but want to look like they're associated with the movement, are making the movement look more violent or more extreme than it actually is. This is coming through Facebook post. You know, there was one Facebook post that claimed to be a Black Lives Matter organiser that was threatening violence and received the same thing on Twitter. Whereas the movement itself is a non-violent movement, and that's really important to to highlight here.

MG: Are there any stories that you have seen that you thought this has to be false and then it actually turned out to be true?

JANE LYTVYNENKO: There have been a couple of lighter hoaxes. Definitely. I believe the Oakland Zoo has had to call the zookeeper and make sure that all the lions are accounted for when rumours of social media spread that there was. I apologise. Not a lion, a tiger wandering the street. There was also a man riding a horse in Chicago. And people thought that this man must have stolen police horse. But it ended up being somebody that is very known in the community, who's known as the dread head cowboy, who in a video on Facebook joked about stealing a horse to the police. But he's sort of known for riding around Chicago on his horse. So there have been a couple of sort of lighter miscommunications, pieces of misinformation that I was a little bit surprised by. Didn't think I would have to debunk a stolen police horse.

MG: Or that tiger is walking around the street. We just have a few seconds left. The scale of information coming out of these protests is overwhelming. And people are trying to figure out how to interpret what's true and what's not. What's one piece of advice that you would give to somebody?

JANE LYTVYNENKO: Look, spreading myths and disinformation, whether it's accidental or on purpose, can have really, really destructive effects. So the best thing to do is to only push information from people in accounts that you trust. Make sure that you try to find context for photos or videos of photos. It's quite easy. You can learn how to do a reverse image search pretty quickly. Cheque the date on the accounts that are sharing things when they were created. Just try your best to share good information. And when you know you've fallen for a piece of myths or disinformation, corrected it. Make sure that people in your network understand that it was disinformation and that that's the best we can do here.

MG: Jane, good to speak with you again. Thank you.

JANE LYTVYNENKO: Thank you for having me.

MG: Jane Lytvynenko is a senior reporter at BuzzFeed News. She is in Toronto. That's it for The Current for today. You can listen to anything you missed through the CBC. Listen up. Coming up next on your CBC Radio, on its Q. Tom Power is the host. Hello, Tom.

TOM POWER: Matt, how are you?

MG: Everything's all right. Yourself?

TOM POWER: Oh, you know, not too bad working away here ti get a cool show today. You have Kate X. Herrera is one of the people who painted the memorial where George Floyd died. The one that Obama shared most recently in a speech. We're going to talk to him about the painting of that memorial. And also, Ken Burns, you're a fan of Ken Burns?

MG: I am.

TOM POWER: You know, Vietnam, civil war, country music, explaining the unexplainable. I tell you, Matt, he was having a hard time explaining COVID-19 to his daughter. So what he did, instead of making a documentary, he wrote a poem. Oh. Isn't that beautiful?

MG: We'll listen for that.

TOM POWER: He's going to read the poem and I'm going to pan over a baseball card.

MG: Tom Power, host of Q. That's coming up next on your CBC Radio one. Thank you, sir.

TOM POWER: Thank you, Matt.

MG: This is The Current. On CBC Radio one, I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. Take care. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

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Wednesday June 3, 2020 Full Text Transcript

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