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The AIH Transcript for June 1, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: In the name of justice. A black New York state senator is pepper sprayed and handcuffed during an anti-police brutality protest despite literally wearing his name and title on his back.

CH: A California police chief tells us why he took a knee alongside protesters and why he's calling on any officer who thinks what happened to George Floyd is okay to turn in their badge.

CO: Let it burn. She witnessed the initial confrontation between Mr. Floyd and the police. Later, her family business burned down. Tonight, the daughter of one restaurant owner explains why she stands with the protesters despite the damage.

CH: Cancel culture. Amid a crackdown on pro-democracy activists, authorities in Hong Kong have banned a vigil to mark the Tiananmen Square protests. We speak to an organizer who's planning to defy the order.

CO: Space case. A federal court tells Guy Laliberté to cool his jets for the Ciruqe du Soleil founder tries to write off a 12 day stay on the International Space Station as a business expense.

CH: And from the archives to find out what makes rats tick, one neuroscientist found out what makes them tickled. And his findings are very much a laughing matter. As It Happens. The Monday Edition. Radio that doesn't give a rat's assent.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: 'Let it burn:' Owners of ruined Minneapolis restaurant stand with protesters

George Floyd - New York State Senator

Guest: Zellnor Myrie

CH: We're starting to learn more about how George Floyd died. A medical examiner has now classified his death as a homicide and determined that his heart stopped as police were restraining him. The new report comes on top of an independent autopsy commissioned by the family that also pointed to homicide. And George Floyd's family says that means the four fired Minneapolis police officers are responsible for his death. And the Floyd family's lead attorney, Benjamin Crump, says all the former officers involved are culpable.

BENJAMIN CRUMP: For George Floyd, the ambulance was his hearse. Beyond question, he would be alive today if not for the pressure applied to his neck by fired officer Derek Chauvin, and the strain on his body from the two additional officers kneeing him in his back.

CH: Speaking to reporters this afternoon, Mr. Crump also urged calm and condemned the violence and looting that's broken out in many cities in the days since Mr. Floyd's death. But those trying to protest peacefully say the violence can be impossible to escape and that sometimes it's instigated by police. New York State Senator Zellnor Myrie was at a protest on Friday night when he was pepper sprayed and handcuffed by police. We reached Senator Myrie in New York.

CO: Senator Myrie, can you describe this scene on Friday night when police started moving in?

ZELLNOR MYRIE: So I went down in solidarity and to keep the peace. There were, at my estimation, almost 2000 people there in the section that I was in at the time. There were about a group of 60 to 70 protesters. The police started to instruct folks to move back, to push us upwards in the street and we were complying. And then they got even more aggressive. They weaponized the bikes that they had in their hands. They started shoving them in our legs and in our backs. I started physically being pushed and shoved by officers, and in my attempt to shield some of the protesters from the aggression. And while I'm being pushed, I turned around to say I'm obeying orders, and got pepper sprayed and subsequently handcuffed.

CO: You were handcuffed after you were pepper sprayed?

ZM: That's right. And so if you've had the chance to see the picture, I am crying out because my eyes felt like they were on fire and I didn't understand why I had been pepper sprayed or why I was being put in handcuffs.

CO: And you were handcuffed behind your back.

ZM: That's exactly right. And I have never in my life been arrested, never have been pepper sprayed. And so this was a traumatic experience, particularly because I wore a neon green shirt with my name and title on the back in order to prevent a situation like this from happening.

CO: The last thing you said was what? What did you say to the police before they pepper sprayed you?

ZM: I said, "Why am I being arrested?" And I did not get a response to that. The initial turn around, I said, I'm obeying your orders and then I got sprayed.

CO: Were you taken into custody?

ZM: So I was taken away to begin custody process. And once one of the higher ups recognized what was happening, I was pulled off the line, given medical attention, and my zip tie handcuffs were removed.

CO: Now, you saw on the ground the reaction of police. You have, I'm sure, learned what's been happening around the United States. What's your reaction to the way the police have responded to the protests?

ZM: You know, I have been very troubled by the narrative of telling protesters how they should protest and saying that these have not been peaceful and blaming the victims of police brutality for the brutality of law enforcement. Are there elements that come to incite with insidious intentions? Sure. But the overwhelming majority of people are forcefully protesting the history of police brutality.

CO: But as you point out, there is a minority who seem to be setting fires, vandalizing, looting and causing damage. What should police do in response to that?

ZM: You know, I think that they have a responsibility to protect property and to prevent any additional criminal activity from taking place. What they are not tasked with doing is suppressing everyone's constitutional right however uncomfortable that makes them to protest.

CO: As you point out the police force you were dealing with was the NYPD, the New York Police Department. We also saw the NYPD in SUVs pushing into crowds of people on the streets. Other examples of what you are describing. What do you make of that? Does that indicate a lack of training, a lack of instruction? Is there any explanation for how police are responding to it in your state?

ZM: Well, it's incredibly disturbing. And I think it demonstrates that they are or they have the feeling that they are above the law, that they are above consequences. You only take those actions if you know that there will be no consequences for that type of behaviour.

CO: We're seeing images of people who have been shot in the face with rubber bullets, with tear gas. We saw a man handcuffed with his mask being pulled down, tear gassed. And so is there evidence as to who is doing this because if there are, then there are individuals, are they not, that should be pursued for that?

ZM: Exactly right. There have been put in place investigations. I know here in New York, our attorney general has been tasked with investigating violent or criminal activity, both uniformed and non-uniform individuals. And I think that we should in the absence of a strong federal response, in fact the federal response has been to inflame passions and not to unify, I think it really is up to the individual states to employ every resource that they have to investigate wrongdoing.

CO: And you said that the concern was, is that these officers, these police are doing this with impunity, that that is why they believe they can do this. We have seen the officer who kneeled on the neck of George Floyd has been charged with third degree murder. How should people respond to the fact that there has been a police officer arrested?

ZM: Yeah, I think that's certainly a good start. What we are seeing, unfortunately, is many good starts have terrible endings. And as you look at the demographics of those who have taken to the streets, it has been incredibly diverse, both in culture and in race, but also in age. But we've had a lot of young folks who came to being as teenagers in 2012 when Trayvon Martin was killed. And they haven't seen any consequences for that. They haven't seen any consequences from Ferguson. They haven't seen any consequences for the many others, men and women, mostly black, who have died at the hands of police officers. So they are frustrated because the results have not matched the rhetoric. And so this is why you're seeing this unrest and why I think it will continue unabated until we see consequences.

CO: We'll leave it there. Senator Myrie thank you.

ZM: Thank you so much for having me.

CH: Zellnor Myrie is a New York state senator from Brooklyn. We reached him in New York. In Minneapolis, where George Floyd lived.

George Floyd - Restaurant Burned

Guest: Hafsa Islam

CH: Many protesters spent a day cleaning up businesses destroyed over the weekend. Gandhi Mahal restaurant was one of the establishments reduced to ash. But its owners have a powerful message for anyone decrying property damage "Let it burn." Hafsa Islam is the daughter of Ruhel of Islam who owns Gandhi Mahal. We reached her in Minneapolis.

CO: Hafsa when you first heard the news Friday morning about the burning down of your family business, what was your first reaction?

HAFSA ISLAM: Well, I was woken up at six a.m. from a call from a former employee of ours, and she let me know that the fire caused some severe damage. Obviously I was sad, but I was also angry at first. And I went upstairs to our TV room to check on my dad. And we sat down watching the news and he was getting calls from different people checking in. And while he was on the phone, he said, you know, "let my building burn, let justice be served. Those police need to be arrested."

CO: When you heard your father say that you were angry yourself because the business was on fire -- because it was very close to the third precinct headquarters of the Minneapolis Police Department, that's what had caught fire first. But what did you think when your father said that?

HI: That's when I calmed down quite a bit. I was like, you know, that really made me realize what we have been fighting for, for a very long time and what all this that's going on right now is about. It just connect me back to the root of what we're fighting for. You know, it's about justice. It's not about a building. That could be brought back. It's about the life of George Floyd. You know we can bring back the building. We can't bring back George Floyd. We can't give him back to his family.

CO: It's interesting that your family, this happened Thursday night and then Friday morning, you learned about it, but during the week, the restaurant actually became a kind of action centre, didn't it? I mean, for people who were taking part in protests, they were getting tear gassed, they were getting injured. Tell us a bit about what was going on in the restaurant during the week.

HI: Well, on Monday, it wasn't too bad. You know, they weren't bringing out riot police at all. But on Tuesday, things got pretty bad. They were throwing tear gas and it was happening right in front of the restaurant. And people were being shot by rubber bullets. And the injuries, you know, were pretty bad. And why not one of the tear gas bombs -- when a crowd of people ran towards the restaurant in our direction. And one woman asked if she can come in because she was a medic and she needed to be safe so she can continue to help people. And we let her in immediately. And then she asks us if she could bring people in. And we became a medic tent. And I even tried my best to help with injured protesters. And we opened our doors on Tuesday, on Wednesday and even on Thursday, right before the fire started. We were trying to help as many people as we could.

CO: Why was it so important to your father and your family to be so supportive of the people?

HI: Well, in 1990 in Bangladesh, they had a dictatorship and his classmates had protests and their student leader was actually killed by the police. And then protests and riots broke and they were able to overthrow the dictatorship and bring in a caretaker government. And my dad really, you know, he understood the struggle that was happening with the protesters. He had flashbacks. You know, it was a very similar picture to back home. And that's why he felt the need to be there to support and help. He also doesn't believe that it was his community or he doesn't believe that it was the protesters who would do something like that. But it's really not about the violence that took place for him because he gets it. It really has to come to this for there to be some kind of change. And he understands, you know, that's why it doesn't bother him too much. Yes, he was sad that his building was gone, his life's work was gone. But more than anything, he was sympathetic to the cause and he was understanding the pain of the people.

CO: He sounds like a very special guy.

HI: Yeah. [Chuckles]

CH: You yourself, you were out driving deliveries on Monday when you came to an intersection and you saw what happened, didn't you?

HI: Yes, I saw the arrest. I didn't witness his murder. And, you know, when I say I actually stopped a lot sooner than I had to because, you know, was it going to be another black man being arrested? Who knows what's going to happen? You know, I saw his face I could see his fear, his tears. He was still crying for his mom. Even before he was put to the ground, he was crying for his mother. And I watched them walk him across the street minutes before they murdered him. And, you know, it was crazy because I woke up the next morning to learn that that was George Floyd and George Floyd had been murdered. You know, that picture keeps coming back in my head while I think about what's going on.

CO: And so when you learn that the police officer, one of the police officers involved has been charged. Is that meaningful for you?

HI: I mean, it's a turning point, yes. But I think that all four police officers should be charged and arrested. Yes, the one who was charged and arrested was the murderer. But those other three police officers who were involved could have done something. Could have saved him. He could have still been here if those other three police officers decided to intervene, but they didn't. And I think that they are as responsible for the death of George Floyd as the police officer who murdered him is.

CO: Hafsa I'll let you get on with your day. I really appreciate that you could stop to speak with us. Thank you.

HI: Yes. Thank you for having me.

CO: Take care.

HI: Thank you.

CH: Hafsa Islam's family owns the Gandhi Maha restaurant in Minneapolis. For more on this story, visit our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Tiananmen Anniversary Cancelled

Guest: Lee Cheuk Yan

CH: For 30 years, authorities in Hong Kong reluctantly allowed a mass vigil to take place to mark the anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre. That anniversary is coming up on Thursday. And this year, authorities say it's not going to happen. The official reason is the COVID-19 pandemic. But activists say it's actually part of a continued crackdown on the pro-democracy movement. Lee Cheuk Yan is a former member of the Legislative Council of Hong Kong. He's one of the vigil's organizers. We reached him in Hong Kong.

CO: Cheuk Yan, what will you do on June the 4th now that you're not allowed to have this vigil in Victoria Park?

LEE CHEUK YAN: What we will do, our organization will still enter into Victoria Park to light up the candle at 8pm. And we are calling upon the people of Hong Kong, wherever you are, you can come to Victoria Park or you can stay at your own home or outside the street. Wherever you are in Hong Kong, you can light a candle.

CO: What you're planning to do if you and the others in your alliance are going to still go to Victoria Park, will you be violating the ban that the authorities have put on this vigil?

LEE CHEUK YAN: We believe the ban is totally unreasonable. But because the excuse of the ban is that with the prevention of the disease regulation, you know, you should not have a gathering of more than eight people. But it's very absurd. And as long as we have 1.5 metres of social distancing, then there's no problem.

CO: What the authorities are saying that this is about the coronavirus, that this is why you can't have more than eight people gathering when you've had, as you've pointed out, 180,000 in the past, this is not on for reasons of the virus. So what do you say to that? You think that's not really the reason why?

LEE CHEUK YAN: I don't think that's the real reason, because firstly, we agree already to the police that we can have a rally in Victoria Park with 1.5 metres of social distancing. And secondly, when you look at what's happening in Hong Kong now, you know, we have only about 1000 something confirmed cases. And schools are opening, the swimming pool, religious gathering. And when you look at the public transport in Hong Kong it's so crowded that actually it's far more crowded than our candlelight vigil. But the government is not banning public transport. They are only banning political gathering. And you have also to look at the context that recently, you know, the Chinese Communist Party have announced that the National People's Congress want to legislate in Hong Kong, the national security law, you know, forcing upon Hong Kong their law in China. That part about subversion, sedition, you know, they threaten our freedom of speech. What are we are suspecting is that the police are showing loyalty to Communist Party by banning the candlelight vigil before even the national security law is being passed.

CO: I understand what you're saying, that this new law, which you and others we've spoken with who believe this will deny you the rights that you have now. But you think this is actually in advance of that, that even though that law hasn't been passed yet, they're already imposing it?

LEE CHEUK YAN: Yeah, exactly. Of course, the excuse is not that they're imposing the law. The excuse is that of the virus and things like that. But it's unacceptable when you are opening up the whole society, but just banning the political expression.

CO: How important is having a commemoration of the anniversary of Tiananmen Square massacre? How important is it to people in Hong Kong to keep that vigil going?

LEE CHEUK YAN: 30 we have been doing that and 30 years when the whole China was being silenced. It's only in Hong Kong where we can light a candle for them. And many mainland Chinese come to Hong Kong to commemorate together with us. And it's a remembrance of fights, of remembrance. And they know when China is trying to brainwash the whole China, that nothing happened in 89, only in Hong Kong we can retain that memory and then also condemned the massacre and show to the world, show the Communist Party that we have not forgotten. And this persistence is to show to China that, you know, we still continue the torch to fight for democracy, get the students back in 89 what they have been fighting for. And we will continue their fight.

CO: How many people, do you think like yourself, who will turn out in Victoria Park on Thursday to hold that vigil? What are you anticipating?

LEE CHEUK YAN: Of course, there will be less than last year. But this year we are not counting the people who are condemning the massacre, it is only the one that come into the Victoria Park. And we are calling upon the people of Hong Kong, in every corner of Hong Kong, you light up candles. So maybe this year the candlelight vigil will spread from one point to the whole area, whole of Hong Kong and I think that already is even more, hopefully, more powerful than what's happening in Victoria Park. So the people have not forgotten. It's that the form of expression have changed because the police banning us from using the Victoria Park as a rally point. But then, we use everywhere in Hong Kong as the rally point.

CO: There's a bit of danger for you personally, isn't it? Because two weeks ago you were arrested for taking part in anti-government demonstrations. You're out on bail. So if you are to turn out and the police are unhappy with those who come to Victoria Park, how concerned are you about your own freedom?

LEE CHEUK YAN: I think it's more important that we are persistent in our action to condemn the massacre. And we will not retreat just because they have arrested me a few weeks back. And therefore we will continue our struggle. And even after national security law was passed, we will continue also the candlelight vigil, the condemnation of the massacre, and the demand or the calling for end of one party rule in China. And of course, we may be putting ourselves in personal risk, but I think it's not that we are at risk, it's Hong Kong that is at risk. The freedom of speech of everyone in Hong Kong is at risk. And therefore, you know, we are calling upon the world to stand with us and we will continue our fight and we will not retreat. But we need the support of the world.

CO: Cheuk Yan we will leave it there. We will be watching on Thursday. And I appreciate you speaking with us tonight. Thank you.

LEE CHEUK YAN: Thank you.

CH: Lee Cheuk Yan is the chairman of the Hong Kong Alliance in support of patriotic democratic movements in China. We reached him in Hong Kong. And for more on this story, go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Guy Laliberte

CH: If you're doing a tax audit on a circus owner, you have to expect some pretty far out stuff. But Canada's Federal Court of Appeal has decided that Guy Laliberte's attempt to write off his trip to outer space was too much of a leap. Mr. Laliberte is the founder of Cirque du Soleil. The high concept circus troupe is struggling now, but back in 2009, it was raking in so much cash that Guy Lalibertee decided to splurge on a 12 day, 42-million dollar stay onboard the International Space Station. Then in a second reach for the stars, he had his accountant try to write the whole thing off as a business expense. Echoing reviews for Cirque's shows, Justice Mary Gleason found the filing, quote, "unusual and exotic." Then she brought him crashing down to earth. Turns out only 10 percent of a trip to space can be considered a business expense. It's good to know. But there are two things to be considered before we assume that the high flying showman has been grounded. There is the 200 million dollar bailout the Quebec government reportedly has in the works for Cirque du Soleil. And there is Guy Laliberte's bid to put himself back at the helm of the company he had sold for a tidy profit. So he's taking care of business and his business is being taken care of.

[Music]

Part 2: George Floyd - Santa Cruz Police Chief

George Floyd - Santa Cruz Police Chief

Guest: Andy Mills

CH: Across the United States this weekend and in cities around the world, including Canada, protesters gathered to express their rage about the death of George Floyd in Minneapolis. In response to that rage, police in cities across the U.S. made countless arrests, fired rubber bullets and tear gas, and violently clashed with demonstrators. But in a few cities, the police stood alongside the protesters in a show of solidarity. Here's Sheriff Christopher Swanson speaking to a crowd in Flint Township, Michigan.

CHRISTOPHER SWANSON: So listen, I'm just telling you these cops love you. That cop over their hugs people. So you tell us what you need to do. [Crowd chants: Walk with us] Let's walk. [Crowd cheers]

CH: Sheriff Christopher Swanson speaking to protesters in Flint Township, Michigan, in a video taken on the weekend. In Santa Cruz, California officers took a knee alongside demonstrators. We reached Santa Cruz police chief Andy Mills in Santa Cruz.

CO: Chief Mills, what was the message that you were sending when you took a kneel with the other protesters?

ANDY MILLS: Well, I think I was sending two messages, one to my community, which was that we are with you, that we understand that there's pain and trauma from police actions and that we need to do better in the future. This isn't an us versus them. It's an us together moment. The message to my own department was that we are not a part and separate from the community, that we are part of the community. And that there have been times in policing both locally and nationally where we have been wrong and people have died as a result. And this is our opportunity to show that we're serious about change and that we're serious about making our country and our community better through good policing.

CO: And how did people respond to people who are on the street with you?

AM: I had hundreds of people come up to me and say thank you. And then more people followed up with text messages and emails and phone calls saying it was a very healing time for them where they could have confidence that we are headed the right direction in Santa Cruz. And if this can bring one ounce of healing and hope, even though it's shallow symbolism at this point, now, we need to put the structure behind it as a locality, but also as a state and the nation.

CO: The gesture of taking a knee is made famous by footballer Colin Kaepernick. His message about police brutality. Many people are comparing that image with the image of Derek Chauvin kneeling on George Floyd's neck. How did you respond when you saw that video?

AM: Well, my reaction was visceral. It made me literally sick to my stomach to see a man pleading for his life with another full grown adult man kneeling on his neck. It was terrible. We wouldn't do that to an animal. But this man had no compassion at all for the human being that was below him. So it was immensely visceral.

CO: It wasn't just a man doing that. It was one of your profession, a police officer doing that while other police officers looked on.

AM: Well, there was a complete failure of all of them. Absolutely. He murdered, in my opinion, he murdered George Floyd, and the others are accomplices. From the standpoint that you have a duty to act as a police officer. And we teach intervention in our department, if one person is too emotional or getting out of control, you've got to separate that person from what they're doing. Yeah, it's shocking and shameful to see that as a cop who's worked 42 years trying to bring justice and building community relations and to watch it get literally torched to the ground of those relationships because of one person and others as well, I might want to add. I mean, there are many other examples around the nation where we have been unjust.

CO: We've seen the gesture you made and other police leaders, chiefs, sheriffs who were responding the same way, walking with people, talking with them, taking a kneel. But overwhelmingly, what we saw the response to people out protesting was they met with a great deal of police brutality. We saw police officers put tear gas in the faces of people who were already handcuffed. We saw two police cruisers drive into a crowd of people who were protesting. What does that tell you about how your profession is responding to these protests?

AM: One is it gives me great hope that there are many people in our profession who are willing to take their helmets off, like the sheriff in Flint or my colleague right here in our own county, Dave Honda, who read off the names of people who've been murdered by the police. There's also thousands of officers on line who are talking about how this was wrong and we have to do better. So that gives me great hope. At the same time, there are people in our profession who don't belong here. And I can say this to my officers as well as any other police officer in our country and Canada as well, If you think what happened to George Floyd was okay or some of the others who have been killed by the police wrongly, then turn in your badge, go do something else, we don't need you, we don't want you in our profession. And until we get to that point where we're willing to stand up to one another, things are not going to change as they should.

CO: We spoke to spoke with a state senator from New York who was in the demonstrations. He was tear gassed and then handcuffed so he couldn't deal with the pain he was going through. What he said is that the reason why the police are doing what they're doing is because they can, because they can act with impunity, that they believe they know is baked into the DNA of your profession that they can get away with this. There will be no consequences for what they're doing to people. Would you agree with that or not?

AM: I somewhat agree with that. I do think, though, that some of these events have been extraordinarily violent. And that as a police department, you can't allow violence and mass destruction to take place in your city or the city surrounding you. You're going to have to respond to it. Now, having said that, it looks to me like there have been some circumstances that were completely inappropriate. And I think that there is something baked into the DNA, but more importantly to the unions, where the protections afforded to the union members makes it difficult to leave. And I think that to one of the things that has to change in the legislature is probably going to have to get involved. But to peel back some of the police officer Bill of Rights stuff that make it very difficult for people with multiple complaints, such as the guy in Minneapolis, to not be able to get them out of our police forces.

CO: But we've heard from so many people that the root of what's going on is racism. The population, the black population in the United States is two and a half times more likely to be shot by police than non-blacks in your society. We've heard U.S. National Security Advisor Robert O'Brien say that there is no systemic racism in U.S. law enforcement. Do you think that there is racism, systemic racism in law enforcement in the U.S.?

AM: I think we all bring our biases, whether it's conscious or unconscious, to whatever job we do. I think there's just systemic racism in the U.S., period. And so if you have police officers 900,000 nationwide, there's certainly going to be systemic racism. But it's also part of the court system, it's part of the prison systems, it is part of the school systems, it is part of the hospitals. And if we think we're going to fix racism by just fixing the police, then we're going to be here again in 20 years.

CO: Chief Mills we'll leave it there. I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

AM: You bet. Have a great day.

CH: Andy Mills is the chief of police in Santa Cruz, California. It wasn't just protesters who bore the brunt of tear gas, pepper spray, and rubber bullets this weekend, several journalists were injured too. Some were arrested. One photojournalist lost an eye. Other reporters say they were targeted by police while broadcasting live. Here's TV reporter Kaitlin Rust in Louisville, Kentucky, on Friday.

KAITLIN RUST: [Woman screams]

IN STUDIO ANCHOR: Are you okay?

KAITLIN RUST: I'm getting shot. I'm getting shot!

IN STUDIO ANCHOR: Katie, are you okay?

KAITLIN RUST: Rubber bullets. Rubber bullets. It's okay. It's those pepper bullets.

IN STUDIO ANCHOR: Who are they aiming that at?

KAITLIN RUST: At us! Directly at us.

IN STUDIO ANCHOR: Why are they doing that? They're shooting at our crew.

KAITLIN RUST: I don't know.

IN STUDIO ANCHOR: Do they not know that...obviously, they see the camera.

KAITLIN RUST: They're telling us to move now, I guess further away.

IN STUDIO ANCHOR: You moved exactly where they told you to go, though. I mean, they push you to a certain spot. So I don't understand what you did wrong. You guys okay?

KAITLIN RUST: We were behind their line? Yeah, we're fine. James got a little bit of it. But I guess we were behind their line and a little too close for comfort.

CH: That was TV reporter Kaitlin Rust as she and her camera crew described the pepper spray projectiles sent their way well on air in Louisville, Kentucky.

[Music]

Christo

CH: To put it briefly, Christo wrapped stuff. You could even say that along with his late partner, Jean Claude, he was the most accomplished wrapper ever in the world of conceptual art that is. The couple spent decades covering big stuff in fabric. They turned iconic buildings into giant unopened packages and filled landscapes with colourful sales. Christo died yesterday. He was 84. If one of the goals of great art is to change the way we see the world, to imbue the familiar with new mystery and strange beauty, then mission accomplished. But like most big projects, the work also generated big feelings, including concern about the environmental impact of draping fabric over landscapes that are not meant to be covered in fabric. Like the time Christo and Jean Claude decided to cover a 10 kilometre stretch of the Arkansas River in fabric. The proposal required a two year long environmental assessment and a whole lot of artistic diplomacy. But that was Christo's specialty, so much so that he considered rallying support from those not inclined to care about his grand artistic visions, part of the art itself. And somehow, in the end, he always seemed to prevail, just not quickly. Carol spoke with Christo in Washington, D.C., in 2011, just after he learned the Over the River project could proceed 15 years after he and Jean Claude first proposed it.

CHRISTO: We're still standing over the water, minimum eight feet and sometimes the 10-15 feet above the water horizontally fabric panels.

CO: Can you describe the fabric? Can you describe what you think it will look like?

CHRISTO: All the fabric used in our project is very heavy industrial fabric. It is not the cloth in fabric. It'll be thick fiber woven loosely and after that it is pulverized with special technique of million dots of aluminum. This is why it has the reflection colour -- actually not colours. They are aluminum. Because there are two ways to experience the project. To see the project we take you on and a half hour drive in the United States Highway 50 running in the south bank of the river, you can see project from above. And you will see a section of hundreds of thousands of fabric panels moving in the wind like the waves in the ocean, in the sea. And you cannot see that because the fabric luminous kill the colour reflecting the sky and the sun. But we can experience the project by rafting. Rafting inside the project for four and a half hours. And above you, the fabric will be totally different because it is woven loosely and you can see the cloud formation and the concept of the mountain.

CH: From our archives, that was Christo speaking with Carol in 2011. The artist died yesterday at the age of 84.

[Music]

From our archives: The Rat Tickler

CH: We know what Muskrat Love sounds like thanks to the diligent work done by the eminent biologists and 70s soft rock stars, the Captain & Tennille.

[Music: Muskrat Love by Captain & Tennille]

CH: That research is just as impressive today as it was back then. And we also know what it sounds like when herrings communicate with each other by forcing air out of their anuses thanks to the wind breaking work of behavioural ecologists at Simon Fraser University.

[Popping sounds]

CH: But we did not know what it sounded like when a rat laughs because it's being tickled until in 2016, we finally heard that a holy grail of tickled rats sounds.

[Rat laughter]

CH: The sweet music of rat laughter as produced and recorded by Shimpei Ishiyama of the Humboldt University in Berlin. In 2016, he and a fellow neuroscientist published a study on Ticklishness in Rats and what it might mean for how humans regulate moods. Here's his conversation with Carol from our archives.

CO: Mr. Ishiyama, how do you go about tickling a rat?

SHIMPEI ISHIYAMA: Ticklishness is one of the most mysterious sensations in humans also. So even though ticklishness is so common in human culture, we don't know why we laugh when we are tickled. And why we can't tickle ourselves. There are so many mysteries. And, indeed, rats are also ticklish -- that means they do vocalize when they're tickled. So this special vocalization is indicating their positive emotions, such as happiness or joy. And so I got interested in what's going on in the brain, first of all when they are tickled.

CO: We have a bit of the sound that rats make when they are tickled. And so let's just have a listen to that.

[Sound: rats being tickled]

CO: What are you doing when the rats are making that sound?

SI: So I flip over the rat, and push them back on the floor. And I move my finger rapidly on their belly. So the belly is the most ticklish part of the rat, And actually their vocalization is ultrasound. So it's so high that we humans can't hear [it]. And so there's a special microphone which can capture ultrasound, and the computer just transposes the sound to the lower frequency, so that we can hear it.

CO: It sounds like it’s giggling.

SI: Yes, or some scientists call it "rats' laughter."

CO: Now there's a German word that you use in your research, freudensprung. What does it mean?

SI: It's like a common German word, which means we use human judgments when we are excited like “yeah!” We hop, we jump when we are happy. And that's what we saw in rats as well.

CO: And now are they. In what conditions are they most likely to enjoy being tickled? I'm sure and sometimes it must be must be scary for them to see someone coming at them…with a human hand coming toward them. So how do you get them in the mood?

SI: Yeah, it looks like maybe if you take a look at the video, it looks like it's rather like a firm shaking their body rather than tickling. So this is actually how they play with each other. So they actually play very hard. It's also called "rough and tumble play." Is… a technical scientific term of rat play.

CO: "Rough and tumble play" is a technical term?

SI: OK. Yes. And yes I also do tickle them so firmly… so kind of vigorously on their belly, and that's their way to make them laugh.

CO: Now you also discovered that, like humans, they will anticipate being tickled and they'll have the same response. Is that right?

SI: Yes. The new finding of my study is that we found a neural basis… the brain region which responds to tickling. So these neurons also respond to anticipatory tickling. So I just put my hand in front of them, and move my fingers as if I'm going to tickle them, and they already feel ticklish. And they start vocalizing, and they chase my hand really fast. So this we call "play behavior".

CO: Well, you see this in children, don't you? When you can come toward them as though you going to tickle them, and they'll burst into hysterical laughing about it.

SI: Right. That's what we saw also in rats.

CO: What does this tell you about tickling?

SI: So from these results, we got to know that tickling is pretty much related to play behaviour, because the neurons that are activated by tickling can be also activated by the play behaviour, in the same manner. So this is pretty important finding, because play behaviour is known to be very important for developing normal cognitive capacity… social-cognitive capacity. And so without that play… if you deprive play behaviour, for example, in rats, they become socially incapable when they're old.

CO: This would be true, I guess of all animals. And humans.

SI: Yes. And that's why we thought ticklishness is somehow the brain's trick to make us play more, or have fun more.

CO: Mr. Ishiyama, it's great to talk to you. Thank you.

SI: Thank you very much.

CO: Bye-bye.

SI: Bye.

CH: From 2016, Carol's interview with Neuroscientist's Shimpei Ishiyama, coauthor of a study on rat ticklishness.

[Music]

Mechelle Brown

CH: As protests against police brutality continue across the United States, one black community is commemorating another painful event in its history. In 1921, a white mob attacked a prosperous, predominantly African-American neighbourhood in Tulsa, Oklahoma, known as Black Wall Street. The mob set fire to hundreds of homes and businesses. By the end, more than 100 houses were burned and more than 300 people died. Today marks 99 years since the Tulsa race massacre, one of the worst instances of racial violence in U.S. history. Back in 2018, Carol spoke with Mechelle Brown, an employee at the Greenwood Cultural Center in Tulsa, who gives tours about the massacre.

MECHELLE BROWN: The inflammatory accusation that a young black man had assaulted a white woman in an elevator in broad daylight in downtown Tulsa. He's later arrested and taken to the jailhouse/courthouse and the accusation is made that Sarah Page had been assaulted. And as the stories circulated throughout Tulsa throughout the day, it went from claims that she had been assaulted to she was sexually assaulted — by the end of the day they were claiming that she had been raped. And this infuriated a mob of angry whites who were determined to take matters into their own hands. Eventually breaking through the barriers that African-Americans had set up protecting their community. Killing, looting stealing, and not only were they shooting, but they were also dropping nitroglycerin bombs from airplanes.

CO: How is it that so few people know the history of this story?

MB: When we were identifying survivors we asked them that very question. Why did they not share this history with their children and grandchildren? And some of the comments were that they didn't want to pass on those feelings of anger and resentment and bitterness that they felt. And you have to remember that African-Americans came back to a community that was completely devastated, they had nothing but the clothes on their back. But there were more churches in North Tulsa that all of Tulsa combined. And they decided almost as a community that they were going to simply put this into God's hands and focus on moving forward. So blacks didn't talk about it, whites didn't want to talk about it either because many of them participated in the event. They wanted to forget about it. They moved on, went back to work, went back to their normal lives as if nothing had happened. And so year-after-year goes by blacks aren't talking about, whites on talking about it. So today we have a community where people have been born and raised here and know very little about the events of the riot turned massacre or Black Wall Street.

CH: Mechelle Brown, an employee at the Greenwood Cultural Center in Tulsa, Oklahoma, speaking with Carol in 2018. Today is the 99th anniversary of the Tulsa race massacre.

[Music]

Part 3: Man befriends giant, TV-loving owl family nesting outside his window

LTC Home Ownership

Guest: Don Davies

CH: He has responded with sadness and outrage, but now there's pressure on Justin Trudeau to take action on the deaths in Canada's long term care homes. Some of his own MPs want the prime minister to impose national standards on the provincially regulated industry. But Don Davies says that doesn't go far enough. Mr. Davies is the NDP health critic. He argues that for profit companies can no longer be trusted to deliver long term care. We reached Don Davies in Vancouver.

CO: Mr. Davies, you want to end our reliance on private companies to provide these long term care in Canada. What makes you think that the profit motive is the nub of the problem?

DON DAVIES: Well, I think two things really, Carol. First of all, the majority of long term care homes in Canada are private, for profit entities. And there's been a lot of study of conditions in those entities as opposed to public or non-profit. And compared to publicly or non-profit homes, what we found is that private for care centres are more expensive, they have lower staffing levels, they deliver a poorer quality of care and they generally don't reinvest their profits in facility improvements.

CO: But we've seen also that not for profit and publicly run institutions have had problems, have had high levels of COVID-19, have had deaths.

DD: Well, for sure, there are problems in the non-profit and publicly run facilities as well. I don't mean to be taken to say that there isn't structural systemic reform needed across the board, because there is. I think the five homes that the Canadian Armed Forces were in reveal that. I think four out of the five were private for profit facilities and one was run on a non-profit basis. But the problems were the same. The Armed Forces report detailed some of the tangible problems with profit. They saw that they were using expired medications. They had personal protective equipment under lock and key. The staff were afraid to use supplies like soiled pads. There were dangerously low aid to patient ratios. So that's the problem when you're trying to squeeze profit out of what I think should be considered health care facilities.

CO: Of the five facilities that the military pointed out in that report, as you mentioned, one of them was a not for profit, the other are for profit. Not all of them give or have their profits available, but a couple them I can cite: one had a seven and a half million dollars profit last year, another one, almost 30 million dollars in profit. At the same time that these profitable companies are making this kind of money in these homes, a lot of pension funds are invested in it, including the federal Crown Corporation holds a major ownership in a company that a number of COVID hit homes are part of. So it's baked into the financial structures, isn't it?

DD: It is. And I think Canadians were a little bit taken aback when they learned that Revera, which is one of Canada's largest operators of seniors residences, is actually a wholly owned subsidiary of the Public Sector Pension Investment Board, which is a federal crown corporation. And Revera is being sued. There's a couple of potential class action lawsuits concerning their, I guess, lack of proper standards in Ontario and in Alberta. So, you know, even federal ownership is not sufficient to ensure that we have adequate standards and care. And that's why I think the answer really is we need to have a root and branch analysis of this and we need systemic change to the way we deliver care to seniors in Canada.

CO: We know that the return on investment in these homes is very high. So what do you say to those pension funds who are profitable in their own right because of the profits that the homes are making?

DD: Well, I think Canadians and policymakers have a fundamental question ask themselves. And that is, do we think that we should be profiting off the health care of our seniors? And in the face of the implications of that, I think it's wrong to incentivize cost cutting when we're talking about seniors care. And that's exactly what has happened in the report by the armed forces, which I think is a shocking and devastating description of the reality in our care homes. They use phrases like there's a general culture of fear to use supplies because they cost money. You know, the expired medication that's been fed to our seniors was months out of date. There's significant fecal contamination because they don't have enough staff to clean. These are the kinds of things that happen when we're trying to extract as much profit as possible out of the system that doesn't have enough money in it to begin with. So we would never tolerate this situation in Canada's hospitals. I don't see why we are tolerating it in our long term care facilities.

CO: And as you point out, the other things that were itemized in that military report for nutritional status, significant staffing issues, burnout, patients being medicated with opiates in order to keep control of them. All of this is just appalling. But doesn't this scream for regulation and supervision? I mean, if they were properly regulated and supervised, would we have these problems?

DD: I think it's an excellent point. You're right. I mean, the rate of inspections, I think is completely unacceptable. We know that in 2019 in Ontario, only nine out of over 600 facilities were inspected. And in Quebec, less than half of the facilities had seen an inspector in the last three years. I think what's really important is to recognize that this is a national problem. It's happening in every province. Seniors are supposed to get 4.1 hours of hands on care a day. Not a single province or territory is meeting that standard. So when we have a national problem in every province, I think it requires a national solution. Surely we can find a way to make sure that we have regular inspections in every one of these facilities to make sure that the minimum standards are being met. But I still think that the real answer here is we've got to get the federal government involved in this, just like they are in delivering health care through our Medicare system.

CO: All right. We'll leave it there. Mr. Davies, thank you.

DD: Thank you so much, Carol.

CH: Don Davies is the NDP's health critic. We reached him in Vancouver.

[Music]

New Zealand Covid Success

Guest: Siouxsie Wiles

CH: All over the world, countries are still struggling to contain the coronavirus, but New Zealand is celebrating. Right now, it has only one active COVID-19 case and there haven't been any new cases reported for the past 10 days. In all, there were 1500 cases in New Zealand and 22 people died. Which is why its recovery is being held up as an example. And while the country owes some of its success to geography and size, a lot of people are specifically crediting New Zealand's prime minister, Jacinda Ardern. Siouxsie Wiles is an associate professor of microbiology at the University of Auckland, where she heads up the bioluminescent superbugs lab. We reached her in Auckland.

CO: Professor Wiles, how does it feel to know your country has for now all but eliminated this virus?

SIOUXSIE WILES: I guess I kind of have mixed feelings because obviously it's great news for New Zealand and means that we can, you know, sort of get back to some kind of normality. But obviously, we're watching what's happening all around the world and really worried about everybody else.

CO: What do you think was your secret? What was the thing that actually helped rein in the spread of COVID-19 in New Zealand?

SW: I think there are multiple parts to it. The first was having time. So watching what was happening in other countries, especially in China and Italy, and realizing that, you know, we had to act early if we were going to stop the virus. And then I guess the prime minister Jacinda Ardern and her cabinet that did not want to just flatten the curve, you know, slow down the infections and actually listen to the scientists and the public health people saying, you know, we don't want this virus here at all.

CO: Many people have noted that your secret weapon really was your prime minister, who was quite an extraordinary leader through all of this? One thing that in this country and many other countries, the fight against the pandemic was often referred to as a war against an invisible enemy. Can you tell us the approach that Prime Minister Ardern took?

SW: So, yes, she didn't put us on a war footing, which I think, you know, places everybody in a very sort of negative frame of mind. And what she did was bring us together in a much more positive frame. So she always framed it that we were a team of five million and we're going to unite together to protect everybody. And so rather than meaning that people who got the virus were kind of like infected with the enemy and, you know, she made it this a much more inclusive thing. And so everything was about positivity. Everything she said was about acting with kindness and compassion and that together we would do it. So she really made it clear that our actions individually would have a big collective impact.

CO: Because that word kindness came through a number of times when the prime minister would speak about what your role was, what your job was, it wasn't just to wash your hands and to keep away from people and to not meet in groups, but to be kind. Do you think that was just a kind of a motherhood statement? What is it about that idea of kindness do you think that really was so effective?

SW: If you think about the fact that, you know, we need to stay at home and we needed to wash our hands, a lot of that can also make you think that you are about protecting you. So you are staying away from others to protect you from the virus. By framing it the way she did, and this kindness and compassion she was talking about all of us individually acting to protect everybody else. So over and over again, she said, act like you have the virus so you are protecting others. And I think that was absolutely crucial.

CO: Do you think it also helps, though, that New Zealand is an island country, very small population -- you had those advantages that perhaps, well, obviously we don't have and others didn't have?

SW: But I think everybody has borders. And there are certainly countries that are not islands that have done a really good job of controlling the virus and that's by controlling it at the borders. I mean, actually, in the early stages of a of an epidemic, population density doesn't really matter that much. It's about if the virus takes hold or the epidemic takes hold. And then, you know, how big it becomes is sort of a function of population density, but not really early. So I think those are two things that are maybe a little misleading. I think maybe one of the things that helps us is that we were in summer. So, you know, we weren't in the kinds of environments that we now know where the virus can really spread very very fast. But we also, as many countries around the world were experiencing, you know, as the pandemic started, people were travelling home. So we had lots and lots of New Zealanders traveling back to New Zealand from countries with, you know, large amounts of virus. You know, there were two aspects we had to control people coming into the country but then once we knew it was here, we had to stop those chains of transmission.

CO: One of the other things that New Zealand did that Canada did not do, Canada followed what the World Health Organization said, which was don't close your borders, don't limit the movements of people over them, that's not necessary. That's not the route that New Zealand took. Was that an important step to not follow that directive from the WHO?

SW: Yeah, it probably was. But the WHO is in a very difficult position with this, right, because what they're trying to do via, you know, not closing borders and not limiting people's movement is also stopping stigma and things like that. It turns out with this kind of virus, actually, that was the thing that we needed to do to stop it from transmitting. And that was also partly, I guess, in the early days, it was just sort that people were infectious when they had symptoms. But of course, now we know that people are infectious for a few days before they get symptoms. And that means that you have to stop the movement of people who've been exposed. And it's finding those people and that can be very difficult.

CO: I mean, you feel that you've done a good job. Obviously, you have to keep a constant vigil. What are officials looking for New Zealand now as you go forward?

SW: So we have been during this sort of gradual opening up of our social networks and of our economy. So yesterday was the start of the larger gatherings. And so what we're going to be looking for over the next couple of weeks is just to ensure that there are no, you know, no surge in cases, perhaps from some this infections out there. But then obviously, once we're past that stage, the crucial thing for us is going to be about the borders. And, you know, as this virus is circulating around the world in such great numbers, that's a huge risk to us here in New Zealand who are all still susceptible to it, at least until there's a vaccine. So that's going to be the big thing. You know, in New Zealand, tourism is a big deal for our economy. So how are we going to open that up while remaining safe? You know, there's lots of work to be done in that area.

CO: Well, Professor Wiles, we will be watching. Thanks so much.

SW: Thank you.

CH: Siouxsie Wiles is an associate professor of microbiology at the University of Auckland. And that's where we reached her.

[Music]

Chika Oriuwa

CH: When Chika Oriuwa started medical school at the University of Toronto four years ago, she was the only black student in a class of 259. Tomorrow she'll graduate. And when she talks about her experiences in school, all the other students will be listening. Ms. Oriuwa is this year's valedictorian, the first black woman ever to have that honour. She's the daughter of Nigerian immigrants. And she knew growing up that she wanted to be a doctor. But her path to tomorrow's virtual convocation hasn't been easy. Chika Oriuwa spoke about their journey today on CBC's Metro Morning.

CHIKA ORIUWA: I am so excited. I'm a little bit nervous. There's a lot of emotions going around right now. Pursuing medicine as a black woman has been particularly difficult because you have to surmounts quite a bit of adversity. I faced the explicit racism from individuals who question, you know, how is it that I got to medical school? Was there some easier path that allowed me to get in? And then having to confront it through the medical curriculum. There were certainly gaps in our training in which diversity wasn't necessarily addressed. And then during my critical rotations, having to encounter racism from patients or from staff members, that's been particularly challenging.

ISMAILA ALFA: Now, you are the first black woman ever to be valedictorian of the University of Toronto's medical school. And when you started four years ago, you were the only black student in the class of 259 people. What kind of responsibility do you feel being the first?

CHIKA ORIUWA: So it's a lot of responsibility. You feel this intrinsic sense to represent to your [inaudible]. So I've always been acutely aware of my identity as a black woman in medicine. And then, of course, being the first black female valedictorian, I think it's been definitely an interesting journey. I had a Toronto Star article that was written about me. And however, since it's begun to circulate on social media, there's been this ironic resurgence of individuals who have stated that I didn't deserve to be valedictorian and that I only got the title because I am a black woman. And then even this morning, having to wake up to a comment that stated that they would have never let me treat them even the day before I got my medical degree to hear that someone based purely on the fact that I'm a black woman would never let me treat them as a physician. And so it's very interesting to be in the position that I am in as a valedictorian to try and, you know, breathe life into my crossing and provide inspiration. And at the same time, despite all the positive response that I've gotten, also having to combat a lot of racism and hatred online has been particularly difficult.

CH: That's Chika Oriuwa speaking today with guest host Ismaila Alfa on CBC's Metro Morning. Ms. Oriuwa is the first black woman to be named valedictorian of the University of Toronto's Medical School.

[Music]

Belgian Owls

Guest: Jos Baart

CH: Your social circle may have shrunk to you, your cats, and the cast of Grey's Anatomy. But over the past two months, Jos Baart's social circle has cracked wide open. Mr. Baart lives in Belgium, and lately he's been sharing his third story apartment with a family of newcomers. They did not arrive on his doorstep. They hatched in the planter outside his living room window. Mr. Baart’s new flatmates are a family of Eurasian eagle owls. And while three of them are babies, they're also very large. We reached Jos Baart in Geel, Belgium.

CO: Jos, how are the owls doing today?

JOS BAART: At the moment, very quiet. They have got some food this night, two rats, and they are just a little bit sleeping.

CO: Yikes. They eat a lot of food. We're calling them babies. But how big are these baby owls?

JB: They are as big as a big chicken. [Laughs] So 30 centimetres. And they are looking at the food. Still a chicken, a half chicken. Yesterday, a whole chicken. But they have to eat a lot and they are very quiet at the moment.

CO: And the mother is bringing them food and they're not going out of the nest yet. They're waiting for mom to come home with dinner.

JB: Mom is at the moment in the gutter. She stays there the whole day. And when the evening falls, she flies away to get some food and then daddy brings food too in the night.

CO: [Chuckles] Wow. And we're talking about Eurasian eagle owls, the biggest owls in all of Europe. When mom first landed in your flower box outside your window, what did you think?

JB: First I thought they were pigeons. [Laughs] The noise they make, I thought, they were pigeons again. Pigeons again. But I took a look and there was a big bird that flew away. So I thought, oh, that is an owl. Yeah. And then they make notices to each other with the male and the female. And after a few weeks, she started to lay eggs.

CO: I guess that's what happens when the males and females get together. [Laughs] Then there are babies. [Laughter] So you saw the eggs hatch. Is that right?

JB: I saw the eggs and first young ones came out on the 11th of April. Easter Saturday. Now they are 7 weeks.

CO: So nice Easter eggs to get.

JB: Yeah of course. [Laughs]

CO: You spend a lot of time watching this movie. So do you sit by the window?

JB: I sit by the window the whole day. You can look to it. And in the evening they are more active. They come to life.

CO: That's where mom comes back with the rats.

JB: Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

CO: But I've seen the video of you. They let you get very close. You have a really close look through the window. What are those baby owls doing all day? Are they watching you?

JB: When I'm home they are watching me. When I go to the window a little bit picking on the glass, there's a reaction of all three of them.

CO: So they're watching you and you're watching them.

JB: Yeah.

CO: But I understand that they like to watch television with you.

JB: Yes. Yes. [Laughs] When the television is on they are seeing the movements of the television. And then they come, all three, before the window and for half an hour or more to look at the television.

CO: Now, do they have any favourite shows or do they just watch anything?

JB: [Laughs] It is just the movements.

CO: Jos the pictures are wonderful. They just are magnificent. And you're so lucky to be so close. But, you know, the little ones do grow up and they leave the nest and you're going to be an empty nester someday.

JB: Of course. But that will be in a month, four weeks. I think they leave the nest and I will be happy too when they have a good future. I don't have to take care. And they have a lucky life in free nature.

CO: Any chance that they'll come back?

JB: No, no. The young are not come back. They had to find a new territory. You understand?

CO: Yeah. A new territory. But will the mom come back and lay egg?

JB: Yeah. The mom, that is already her territory.

CO: Okay. So you're going to see more babies then.

JB: Yeah that could be, but it's not sure that she will come back next year.

CO: Well, but at least it's not pigeons, right? Which I know you don't like. [Laughs]

JB: [Laughter] I don't like pigeons. Yeah. It was just amazing. A very wonderful, so unique, you can say it is once in a lifetime.

CO: Jose, you're very lucky. And we're going to share the pictures so our listeners can see those beautiful creatures. And thank you for telling us the story.

JB: Okay. Bye bye. Thank you. [Laughter]

CH: Jos Baart has a family of Eurasian eagle owls living in the planter box outside his third story apartment. We reach Mr. Baart in Hale, Belgium. And if you want to see those owls, head to our webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Silver Donald Cameron

CH: Silver Donald Cameron was a lot of things: a teacher, a journalist, a writer, an environmentalist, but above all else, he was a storyteller. In addition to writing more than a dozen nonfiction books, Mr. Cameron created dramas for CBC Radio and TV, produced several documentaries and wrote two novels. The second of which was set to be released this August. His work covered everything from history and social justice to working conditions in maritime life. Silver Donald Cameron died yesterday. He was 82. He was raised in Vancouver. But Mr. Cameron spent much of his life on the East Coast and on the water. He was an avid sailor and once wrote a radio play about the blue nose for the CBC. Here he is in 1986, talking to host Vicki Gabereau about his preparation.

VICKI GABEREAU: Did you go out and sail on the blue nose too?

SILVER DONALD CAMERON: Yeah, I sailed from Lunenburg to Atlantic City, New Jersey. It took the best part of a week, I guess, in 1983.

VICKI GABEREAU: Oh, what is the sensation?

SILVER DONALD CAMERON: Seasickness was one perhaps. [Laughter] I was desperately ill for the first two days. She's a very nervous vessel. You're going to see her by the way, she's going to be out for the expo. She noses and hunts and worms her way through the sea. She doesn't, -- as much sailboats sort of lie over to the side, take the wind and then kind of just rock along. Not her. She's a hunter. And so she's constantly in motion and constantly creaking and groaning. Makes a lot of noise.

VICKI GABEREAU: That was the original. It was a hunter like that.

SILVER DONALD CAMERON: Yeah. I understand she was. I understand she was. And maybe that's what makes them both so fast into the blue nose, too, is a very fast vessel.

VICKI GABEREAU: You have a boat, don't you?

SILVER DONALD CAMERON: Yes. My wife and I have just finished a building a 27 foot sailboat herself.

VICKI GABEREAU: Well, just finished. I mean, it took you forever, did it not?

SILVER DONALD CAMERON: It took 8 and a half years. [Laughs] That's right. That's right. I finally got her in the water on Labour Day and finally got her sailing on, I think, the 6th of September, which has got to be one of the red letter days of my life.

VICKI GABEREAU: Well, did the tears stream down your face from emotion?

SILVER DONALD CAMERON: I was too nervous to cry. [Laughs] If there was moisture streaming down, it was elsewhere.

VICKI GABEREAU: Well did you....[laughter] I get it. [Laughter] You took a second change of clothing one would hope.

SILVER DONALD CAMERON: [Laughter] Yes I did.

CH: From 1986, that was writer Silver Donald Cameron speaking to CBC radio host Vicki Gabereau. Mr. Cameron died yesterday. He was 82 years old.

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June 1, 2020 Episode Transcript

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