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Season 1: Episode 3 – Can you have sex?

[Mid-tempo music]

Voice 1: They were like “Can you do this?” and I was like “We’re doing it right now, aren’t we?”

Voice 2: They assume we don’t masturbate, that we don’t get horny. We absolutely do.

Voice 3: Some of the most creative people sexually are people with disabilities, kind of because you have to.

Harvinder Wadhwa: Sex intro take two [laughs].

[Beep tone]

Elena Hudgins Lyle: You know how it’s awkward when your parents give you the sex talk? So I think it’s even more awkward, if you put yourself in my shoes, to be talking voluntarily about sex on a podcast with your friend’s dad.

Harv: It’s awkward for you? I think it’s way more awkward for me.

[Both laugh]

Elena: So when I say put yourself in my shoes, I really mean put yourself in Harv’s shoes.

Harv: Fair enough.

Elena: The question we’re breaking down this episode is “Can you have sex?” which gets asked to people with physical disabilities. And we’re going to be breaking it down with experts on sex and disability.

So it’s time to talk about sex!

Harv: [laughs] Okay Elena, calm down, calm down.

[Theme music]

Harv: People are curious and that's great.

Elena: But there are some questions you just shouldn't ask or at least not like that.

Harv: I'm Harvinder Wadhwa.

Elena: I'm Elena Hudgins Lyle.

Harv: And this is Inappropriate Questions.

Elena: Let’s get inappropriate!

[Theme music ends]

Elena: Today in studio with us we have Andrew Gurza. He is a disability awareness consultant and a cripple content creator. He hosts the podcast “Disability After Dark” which shines a bright light on sex and disability. He’s also a fan of '80s and '90s pop and Netflix marathons. And he’s here to help us break down the question “Can you have sex?”

Andrew Gurza: Hi.

Elena: Hi Andrew.

Harv: Hi Andrew.

Andrew: It’s so nice to be here, thank you for having me.

Elena: So first off we always like to start with a story from our guests, so can you tell us about a time someone asked you "Can you have sex?"

Andrew: Well [sigh], I get asked it a lot in the work I do because I work specifically in sex and disability, so I get asked all the time. But one of my most least favourite times was when I was actually having sex with somebody. They were like the "So can you do this?" and I was like "We're doing it right now, aren't we?"

Elena: Woah.

Andrew: Often times like times in clubs, or times I'm just trying to like, live my day. "Hey so like, can you have sex?" Or "How do you have sex?" which is really another coded way of saying “You can't, right?” Like asking me, “Can you?”

I remember that I went on a date a couple years ago, a blind date with somebody and I met him at my house and it was it was a queer hook up situation. We weren't gonna date, we're gonna mess around and then he would leave. So he comes in my house, he goes "Where's your nurse?" And I went "Pardon me?" He was like "Where's your nurse? Do you have a nurse who helps you?" and I was like "No, I'm okay. Like I have people that assist me when I need them to, but no, I don't have a nurse."

So I had to tell him that we couldn't hang out because the questions got worse and worse like "Where's your nurse? Do you shower yourself? Are you clean?" Like all these horribly offensive questions so like I just, okay I don't want to do this anymore. Like, thanks.

Elena: Gosh that's so awkward and awful.

Andrew: Yeah, it was yeah. So I get it in many different ways very often.

Harv: On the flip side, do you have an example of an experience that went very well?

Andrew: Okay I was with somebody recently and we were...how blue can I get in this podcast?

Elena: Harv's like "Tell me about your hot sex."

Harv: No, I'm okay [laughs].

Elena: Please, please.

Andrew I'll say it and then you can cut it if you want.

Elena: Okay.

Andrew: So I was with somebody recently and we were doing things with each other and they actually were like "Yeah cripple, yeah do it" and I just laughed and thought it was hilarious and we really bonded over that. And I, you know, I have lovers that I have them they will call me cripple during the act. And I think it's such a term of endearment for me because it's like “Okay, you see me now. You see how all of this plays into my life and you are honouring my experience by using the language that I'm choosing for myself. It doesn't happen very often because people are afraid to engage in sexuality with me. So when I do, when I am with somebody, like I have to train them to be sexual with me or intimate or do any of that stuff. So when I get somebody who understands what I like and is using language that I have asked them to in a sensual context, it’s like “Yes!”. It's amazing because I feel really, I feel validated as a person that way and as a disabled person especially.

Harv: So Andrew, is there certain language that you prefer in terms of disability?

Andrew: I really am very, l play with my disability. Like, I call myself a queer cripple. I call myself a gimp, like I'm wearing a sweater right now that says Gimp on it. I play with all that stuff.

Harv: What is gimp?

Andrew: [laughs] Gimp is a colloquial term that means like sick or lame or unable to do something. It's basically a pejorative term for disability, so I know that, and I play with that. I have a hat that says Disabled Daddy on it. Like I play, I play with all of these things because I think it's funny. When I'm with somebody, when I'm with a friend or a lover or somebody I'm hanging out with, I make them call me a cripple. And it makes them super uncomfortable, but I say “No, this is how you're going to address me because I want you to see that this is part of my identity.” I was talking to a friend of mine about this last night and person-first language is like, “You are a person with a disability, you are person with colour.”

Why do we need to, why do we need to remind people that people of difference are people first? The fact we’re doing this is insulting. Shouldn’t we just know that, as organisms in the world? Shouldn’t we just know that we're people already? I don't connect with that language. I can connect with disabled or queer cripple or like…because those are the words that I have chosen for myself. But again that's my own personal decision to use that.

Elena: For sure.

Andrew: Don’t run down the street and shout “Hey cripple!” Don’t do that. But if somebody else with a disability said “Hey, I prefer you call me differently abled or you called me this,” I would have to respect that because that's their choice.

Elena: You talk a lot in your work about the assumptions that people with disabilities don't have a sex drive.

Andrew: Yep.

Elena: Why do you think—where do these assumptions come from? How do people learn these assumptions?

Andrew: They’re passed down through hundreds and thousands of years of ableism really. People being taught that the disabled body is not desirable, the disabled body is deviant, the disabled body is wrong, and the disabled body is problematic. Being taught this through people in power saying like, the medical community especially, saying like if you have a disability, we need to fix you. Or if you're disabled this should happen and so all that stuff gets passed down and ingrained. It also I think just culturally anyone who is “different” from from the majority is treated with this like “Oh my goodness we don't know how to handle you so we’re not going to talk to you, we're gonna just stare at you and move away.” I mean, I have been guilty of the same thing in different contexts so I think just culturally we really, we don't want to be inappropriate. We just don’t know what to say.

Elena: You're giving me an idea for our new visual component for this podcast inappropriate stares.

Andrew: Right, yeah! I’m so down for that, I can mimic one for you later.

[All laugh]

Harv: So Andrew, what is it about sex and disability that interests you?

Elena: It’s still your thing and it’s been your thing for quite a while now. Your podcast has so many episodes.

Andrew: What is it about sex and disability? It will always be taboo. Every single talk I do people are afraid to talk about it. Every single time I say to students in the classroom, “Okay thank you for coming to my lecture, does anyone have any questions?” Silence. Crickets in the room. Until one brave soul goes, “Um, I have a question about—” and so then I get, I have to you know guide them through. But I'll never be out of work because we don't talk about enough. We don't see disabled people as sexual, we don't see them as people, really. If we were honest about how we viewed otherness in our society, we don't view a lot of people as people.

Elena: Kind of bouncing off of that, that people—Harv is waving to keep the lights on.

Andrew: Amazing, keep that in.

[All laugh]

Elena: The studio here, our lights turn off sometimes if we don't move obnoxiously.

You talked about how sex with someone with a disability requires more communication as you say—I like this phrase a lot—the storyboarding, storyboarding your sex. And that, to me, kind of brought a piece about how in culture we kind of assume sex is going to be this kind of automatic thing, that you know, we kinda romanticize it as involving not much communication, even though all of the actual advice is, “Communicate with your partner!” I was wondering if you wanted to touch on that a bit, like why is communication so weird for us when we actually have to storyboard sex. Why is that weird for people?

Andrew: It's weird because it's been romanticized by TV. Like look at any Fifty Shades of Grey trailer, like any romantic comedy trailer in the last like…ever! Look at any like TV show about romance, you’re just supposed to know. Talking about sex isn’t sexy, having the sex is sexy. When you start having to, you’re forced to make the talking fun or intimate or whatever it is you’re doing. It becomes sexy when you start laying it out. And sometimes I don’t want to storyboard my sex either, I just want to do it. But you have to, otherwise I’m going to hurt them or they’re going to hurt me or we’re going to hurt each other. So you have to. Disability forces you to look at it in a different way.

Elena: From what I've seen of your social media presences and stuff, you love making things sexy, you love taking things that might, people might not assume to be sexy and making them sexy.

Andrew: I like making things uncomfortably sexy.

Elena: Yes, that is probably the best way to describe it.

Andrew: Yeah.

Elena: I was a little bit, like in the back of my mind because there's so many pictures of you online, when you're just staring down the camera and you're shirtless and I was like half like wondering like, is he going to show up shirtless in the winter, like is this Andrew’s deal?

Andrew: Yeah, in a harness being like hey let’s talk about this.

[All laugh]

Elena: Rocks up to the the speaking engagement like, “Hello.”

Andrew: “Hey, let’s do it.” I’ve done that, at speaking engagements, come in harnesses and talked in a harness to show people that, like part of it’s a joke. But part of it is, “Look.” Especially in queer male spaces, leather in the leather community, it's perceived as sexy to wear a harness and to be…that’s a whole subculture of being queer. For queer men especially. So when I did it, it was me asserting like, “Look, I can do just like you can do. Look, I can wear leather and be attractive and now do you see me as some somebody worth considering giving me a number and asking would to go mess around later.” By wearing this do you see that I can have sexual value too?

Elena: Right, let's talk about queerness and queer spaces for a second then.

Andrew: I’m ready, I'm so ready.

Elena: What is it like navigating queers spaces? Because the queer community, we’re so into thinking that we're just so inclusive, we’re so great.

Andrew: No, no, nope.

Elena: We're gonna drop the mic right now.

Andrew: Like unfortunately we're not. For me as a queer disabled man, the images I see of other queer men are queer white men who are muscular and who are super down to have sex all the time. Now that’s hot, okay? I’m not going to pretend that I don’t get off to that. But it's really wrong when that's the only image you're fed.

But our community is fractured because we don't want to admit that just because you're gay or queer doesn't mean you also can’t be super privileged and super ignorant about your own privilege.

Harv: What about internet? Has it made it better to connect with people?

Elena: You're shaking your head. They're terrible, they're terrible aren't they?

Andrew: It's terrible, because when you're behind the keyboard you can say things like “Hey does your dick work?”, “Hey can you get an erection?”, “Sorry, I don’t think I can fuck the wheelchair guy”, “I don’t do wheelchairs.” Like you can say stuff like that in anonymity because I'm not going to, I can't see your face. If a queer man who had these fears was sitting across from me, he would never ever say that. But because he's behind the keyboard, that’s why you can say to somebody on Grindr, on Scruff, or on these apps “Oh you’re Asian, sorry we can't.” When you would never ever say that to their eyeballs. You’d never say it, because it’s rude.

Elena: And you would get punched. Or at least if you said that and I was around, I would swoop in.

Andrew: Yeah there would be some serious, I would run you over.

[All laugh]

Elena: Yeah.

[Music up]

Gabby: My name is Gabby, I am from Toronto. I was recently at a concert with one of my work friends. This couple came up to us, we were talking about getting into a cab and it seemed like a regular conversation, but no, he turned to me in front of his girlfriend and asked like, “Do you get horny?”

And my colleague look at me and was like “Oh my god, you told me that people ask you these kinds of questions but I just never believed you.” You know, people are really curious about this. You know, he kept saying “Well you're a beautiful girl, you’re a beautiful girl” which again was also really weird and inappropriate. Because if he didn’t think I was beautiful, would he just not care that, you know, people with disabilities want to have sexual lives.

[Music down]

Elena: Before we get back to our conversation with Andrew, I wanted to share a bit of my conversation with Christine Selinger. She's an educator about sex and disability and currently works for the Abilities Expo. Cool fact, she's also a world champion para-canoeist. I hopped on Skype to chat with her about all things sex and disability.

Elena: What are some misconceptions that people have about sex and disability?

Christine: In general, people with disabilities tend to be viewed as asexual. That's kind of the image of disability that our society has, is people that are dependent, people that are unable to do things for themselves, and therefore how can they be sexual beings? But the truth is that we are independent creatures who live very fulfilling lives, including very fulfilling sex lives. And so definitely a misconception about disability is basically that we don't date, we don't have sex.

Elena: Do people ever assume that that someone's going to have a caretaker when they want to have a sexual encounter with them, they're like do you need help to do this kind of thing?

Christine: It's a more people assume that your partner or your date is your caretaker.

Elena: Yeah. Right.

Christine: Yeah, or we actually use “attendant services” now more than anything because care is one of those subjective things. People don't have to care to look after you.

Elena: Right.

Christine: But that's a big misconception and that comes down to even things like, in buying tickets for a concert or a sports, sporting event things like that, you often are awarded, if you need accessible seating, you’re often awarded an accessible seat and a companion seats or an attendant seats. And so if I'm going with my husband, he's in this seat like marked with “attendant” on the side or something and it's, he's not. He's my husband. And so that is a lot of things that play into that but certainly that's a misconception.

Elena: So in your work you mention aids and toys and how can these come into play yeah in the sex life of a person with a disability?

Christine: I always talk about, as a person with a disability, there are things I rely on for my independence and for my everyday life. Things like, I use a wheelchair to get around, I use hand gears in my car. And there's other things. I kind of adapt the world around me and myself to fit in, and I don't think we need to limit ourselves when it comes to sex. Some of the most creative people sexually are people with disabilities, kind of because you have to. Because you come across something that you, that you're wanting to accomplish but you're struggling with in any way, and you find a way to make that better. And so they do the same thing in the bedroom.

For example, if you have really limited sensation somewhere, you can use something like a vibrator with a really intense vibe to it or fabrics that have different textures to be able to drive pleasure from a spot that may not have a lot of sensation. There's rings that you can use like around the base of the penis that can help it stay erect, things like lubricant. So for women with spinal cord injuries, they often have trouble with lubrication, and so you might need to introduce an external lubricant. Vibrators that you don't have to hold, that have like suction cups or that you can like tie onto a pillow or that have bigger handholds or you can tie around an arms so you don't have to hold it.

And they don't have to be thought of in that kind of taboo sex toy way but more as aids rather than sex toys. If sex toys is your jam too, then go out and have some fun with it! Sex is fun. It should be fun for everyone involved in it and so with the change in your body it's an opportunity to reinvigorate your sex life and to try some new things. Now again, I'm talking about if you've encounter disability later in life, but what worked before may not work. So for a lot of people erogenous zones change.

Elena: Right, erogenous meaning like sensitive and pleasurable?

Christine: Exactly, yeah the places that turn you on.

Elena: Great. Nice.

Christine: I knew one gentleman who found his ears to be a very erogenous zone after sustaining a C level spinal cord injury and so trying to see it as an opportunity rather than a challenge.

Elena: If we look at sex ed in schools, how good of a job does it do in covering sex and disability?

Christine: Often people with disabilities are taken out of classrooms for the sex ed topic so students with disabilities are actually much more likely to just miss that curriculum. Because in a lot of schools, classrooms, programs, the children with disabilities—students with disabilities are actually just aren't given sex ed at all, ever.

Elena: I didn't think about that, that it's because I remember my school is so tied into gym, you know. So that’s, gosh that's awful.

Christine: It's actually like a startling statistic, which I don't know off the top of my head, but it's well over half of students with disabilities graduate without taking a day of sex ed in their life. The people with disabilities actually need sex ed in the first place. But beyond that, trying keep conversations about sex ed inclusive and that means inclusive of everyone. So, inclusive of those who have sex in different ways, people who are asexual, people who choose not to have sex, people who choose not have sex before marriage, those who choose to have a lot of sex, people who are straight, people who are gay, people who are fetishists, people who are not.

It's a matter of having open conversation because we should all be a part of that, it's part of our health. So it's not to give the impression to the students with disabilities that they are not part of the conversation, but also to make sure that everyone knows that people with disabilities are still part of the conversation.

[Music up]

Andrea Lausell: Hi my name is Andrea Lausell, I run a channel on YouTube where I talk about disability extensively and specifically the type of disability I have, which is spina bifida. I think society can help change these misconceptions by listening to disabled voices. There are so many YouTube channels, so many blogs out there that are written by disabled voices.

When I make my videos on sex and disability, the majority of my comments are actually quite positive. A lot are from younger viewers who are disabled and then I have a good amount that are older. They’re so thankful for the resources and the education that I'm giving because they never had that. As for negative comments, the ones they do tend to be people that in general are upset that sex education is out there, they think that it's inappropriate especially if younger people view it. But young people also deserve to learn about safe sex and young people are also going to meet disabled peers who they may want to have sex with, so they should be able to learn all the ranges of how to have sex.

[Music down]

Harv: Andrew, we have been chatting for such a short period and you have really spun my world.

Andrew: Wow.

Harv: Because a lot of stuff which we do, we are not even thinking what we are doing and what kind of impact that is having on the other person.

Andrew: Yeah.

Harv: So when people are trying to be polite to you, what is that politeness and how does it feel? Does it feel good, does it feel terrible?

Andrew: That’s a super loaded question. People can be really ableist when they’re trying to be polite to a disabled person. So sometimes they’ll bend down to talk to you if you’re a wheelchair user, they’ll touch your wheelchair without consent, they’ll say things like “HI HOW ARE YOU TODAY” in really slow, weird…like “What are you up to today?”, and I’m just like “Hey. I’m living my life, what’s up with you.”

We need to realize our society, that all of us are a little bit racist, all of us are a little bit ableist, all of us are a little bit prejudiced in all the ways and if we start admitting that and owning up the fact that we can make mistakes, we can say the wrong thing. It's okay if you just make the mistake and then like try really hard to never do it again.

And I'm not afraid if you, if you do that. Like one of the sexiest things somebody could ever say to me in the club or in a romantic relationship is like, “Hey, so if I see you have a disability” if it's visible or if it’s an invisible disability, they can say “Hey, I noticed you mentioned that you have this disability. I think you’re kinda cute. I have no idea about your disability, but can we go over there and talk about it?” Like then my pants will be off and let's go, let's go have a discussion. Like there's ways to admit that you don't know anything and I think admitting that we don't know a lot about the lived experience around disability is the first step to building a knowledge base.

Elena: You retweeted a while ago an article about the sexual harassment discussion but with sex and disability as well, is that like a conversation happening?

Andrew: No, but it should be. I can't count the number of times people have said to me like, “Hey, I would totally fuck you because you can’t get away.”

Elena: What?

Andrew: Yeah, all the time.

Harv: Seriously?

Andrew: Yeah, and you’re supposed to laugh at it because it’s supposed to be a joke but really when you look at it it's totally like rape culture like yeah.

Elena: Yeah, like your joke is really creepy.

Andrew: If we're talking about consent and disability too and sex. By me saying yes to you and giving you permission to have sex with me or do something intimate with me, I am letting you into a world that’s a big deal. It's a privilege for anybody of difference to say, “Yes come into my bedroom, yes come into this experience, yes let me show you this.” I’m letting you into a world that you really don't have a right to comment on, you just have to sit and observe.

Elena: Mhm. This is the part of the discussion where we talk about what you do next if you're someone who's found yourself asking our question.

Andrew: I don't think the question’s dumb. I don't think the person asking it is dumb either. I think the structures we build around it are problematic.

Elena: So we must dismantle the structures as opposed to telling people stop asking these questions.

Andrew: Yep, dismantle the structure and by doing that is reframing the question. So if the question is, “Can you have sex?”

Elena: Yeah.

Andrew: Don't ask me that, don't.

Elena: Number one.

Andrew: Number two is, if you say “Hey, can you have sex?” I immediately have to jump on the defensive. “Well, of course.” It makes me feel like I have to defend my right as a person right away, as a sexual being right away. But if you say, “How does sex and disability feel for you?” you open the door for me to give you a plethora of answers that tap into the emotionality of what it really is like. And that's what you should be looking at not, not “can you”, not simply the mechanics, the internal feelings about all of that is what you should be focusing on. But it depends on how you’re asking it.

Elena: Right.

Andrew: Like don’t walk up to me on the street and ask how does sex feels.

Elena: Hi, how does sex feel?

Andrew: [Laughs] Yeah, like “Hi, my name is X. I noticed you over there at the bar. I noticed you know, you may have a disability or you mentioned earlier that you have a non-visible disability. I am ignorant and know nothing about that, would you mind sharing that with me?” And then I, as a disabled person, can say, “You know what, I just want to have my drink and hang out with my friends, or just want to watch this Netflix show and be left in peace, thanks.” I can say like, “Nope not today.” But if I wanted to, I could say, “Yeah, I wouldn’t mind having a drink with you and talking about that, no problem.”

Elena: Is context a big piece as well?

Andrew: For sure! I’m gonna go blue.

Elena: Okay.

Andrew: If I wanna fuck you, and then I can totally will answer your question, because I'm thinking if I answer your question then maybe I’ll get laid. So context is totally a part of it, it is and I think you have to think, “As a non-disabled person, when I become disabled like they are”, not if but when, “When I am that person and I'm on the other side of that and somebody says ableist, somebody walks up to me on the street says something ableist.” When it happens you, will you want to be treated like that? No, then don’t treat me like that now.

Harv: Well, another educational moment for me. Thank you Andrew, it was very enlightening.

Andrew: And such a pleasure to be here, thank you both.

Elena: Thank you so much for coming.

Andrew: It was so, it was fun. I could talk for another two hours.

Elena: I'm so glad! Where can our listeners find you on social media, anywhere else?

Andrew: Social media they can go to Twitter or Facebook, Andrew Gurza. The Disability After Dark podcast Facebook page is Facebook.com/DisabilityAfterDark. My Twitter @AndrewGurza. That’s A-n-d-r-e-w G-u-r-z-a. My website’s andrewgurza.com. Hire me to do all the things. Yeah, basically type in Andrew Gurza and you’ll find me.

Elena: And his Twitter is hilarious! I recommend.

Andrew: Right, though? [laughs]

Elena: He's like, “You're right, I'm not going to argue.”

[Theme music]

Harv: I'm Harvinder Wadhwa.

Elena: And I'm Elena Hudgins Lyle.

Harv: Thanks for getting inappropriate with us!

Elena: Thank you to our guests Andrew Gurza and Christine Selinger. We also had voice notes from Andrea Lausell and Gabby. As usual there's a fabulous webcomic to go along with this episode at iqpodcast.com. It was illustrated by Jaden and you can find them at @jdynboi on Instagram. Follow us on all the socials at IQ_Podcast and talk to us!

Harv: We want to hear from you!

Elena: The sonic superstars behind this podcast are Sabrina Bertsch, Erin Guerette, Cindy Long and myself.

Harv: And thank you to our interns and associates Nuha Khan, Pia Araneta, Fariha Ahmed and Hailey Krychman. We are supported by the Ryerson University Transmedia Zone.

Elena: An inappropriate question is like meeting your crush’s super cool significant other.

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TRANSCRIPT: Inappropriate Questions - Season 1, EP 3

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