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The Current Transcript for May 20, 2020

Host: Matt Gallaway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

I'm hoping Poking out only get by not having any. 20 minutes in your debt of separate folds. Twenty nine people in a class.

MATT GALLOWAY: You and me both. Leona. What will school look like in the fall? This is one of the big questions of this pandemic. With students starting to head back to class in B.C. and Quebec, and Ontario now saying that in-person classes are done until September. We look down the road to see what the future of education is in this country. Also, our national affairs panel examines how this is being handled politically and whether the onus is now on auto war to finally come up with a national child care strategy. Also this morning.

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It's tricky. This is all going to be tricky. These are natural experiments in a way that are playing around everywhere in the world. But we're seeing countries try to open up and see what happens.

MG: In the heart of the AIDS crisis. Catherine Hankins was at the frontlines of research tackling that epidemic. Now, the Montreal doctor has turned her attention to COVID-19. And we'll hear from her about lessons learned and her quest to find out just how widespread this virus actually is in Canada. We begin, though, with the simple pleasure of going out for a meal and the not so simple reality of what restaurants will still be left when this pandemic subsides. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. And this is The Current.

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Pandemic pushing restaurants out of business

Guests: Federico Fuoco, Tanya Doucette, Cyrus Cooper

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So God bless all of you. Hope to see you here. And who knows what the future will bring? And I'll sing [starts singing in Italian]. Ciao, arrivederci. Grazie.

MG: And with that, Federico Fuoco signed off his Facebook message. Thanks. And see you later. Because he was announcing the permanent closure of his restaurant, Federico Supper Club this week. Restaurants in British Columbia are starting to open their doors again. But the double hit of rising rents and the pandemic made that impossible for the supper club. It's been a bit of an institution on Vancouver's east side for more than 20 years, and now it's gone. Federico Fuoco, good morning.

FREDERICO FUOCO: Good morning.

MG: Why did you decide to close your restaurant?

FREDERICO FUOCO: Well, the current situation that it was untenable between rising rents, rising property taxes and a minimum wage increase is coming up here on June 1st. And of course, the pandemic. Who knows what the new "normal", quote unquote, would be? I just looked at all of it and it's impossible to continue. I was getting no rent relief from landlord as well.

MG: There are a lot of people who would ride this out and would say, you know what? We'll wait and see what the new normal to your face looks like. Why did you feel it was untenable that you had to pull the plug.

FREDERICO FUOCO: Well, I looked at all those expenses, I sat with my general manager and my manager. We looked at all of these things and there's just no way. The rent increase. First of all, I was looking at the almost hundred percent rent increase and we went to arbitration that ended up being 40 percent increase, which was a huge increase. I can't increase my prices by that amount. The property taxes that were not being waived, everything was being deferred and the landlord wouldn't give me any rent relief on the past due rent like the difference. No one, the arbitration decision came in March. The provincial governments not looking at delaying the minimum wage increase. I'll just give you an example. For every dollar that the minimum wage goes up, cost me $30,000 more in what I spend in wages per year. So from 10 to 15 dollars is an extra 150,000 thousand dollars a year just on a minimum wage portion. Never mind all the other wages and I'm paying that we're getting more than $15 because then everybody else will want an increase. That's one thing. The property taxes, I'm paying almost $40,000 a year in property tax. The rent being increased by 40 percent. That was the decision in arbitration. Like I said, we're not going to charge 100 dollars for a plate of pasta. And right now they were just opening up the restaurants saying if 50 percent of their capacity, you have to have social distancing. There's no restaurant on earth that can survive in 50 percent capacity.

MG: In the good old days, what was a typical night at your restaurant?

FREDERICO FUOCO: Well, we were open Wednesday through Sunday. And then obviously the weekends are the busiest. And we had about 30 and forty people on those nights and my places is dining and dancing. So the whole thing is you come there to dine and then you dance. And now with, you know, how can you dance in that restaurant and that sort of concept. So for me, I'm looking at that and in awe. I thrive on birthday parties, anniversaries, weddings, especially during the Christmas time with all the Christmas parties. I'm just looking at this and there's no way I would be able to survive.

MG: How long were your staff there with you?

FREDERICO FUOCO: Oof, I've staff there for 21 years. Be the most on. My staff have been with me at least 10 years minimum. So they [unintelligible] families working at my restaurant.

MG: And you've been an anchor lately in the community as well. I mean, you've helped to shape the Italian community and in Vancouver.

FREDERICO FUOCO: Well, you know, I grew up across on Commercial Drive. I lived and worked all my life. You know, the heart of Little Italy. And so, you know, I was part of the BIA on Commercial Drive. We bought back Italian Day. And, you know, for all of us since 2010. We brought it back, you know, with three hundred thousand people attending. And we had to cancel that that which would have been on June 14th. So, I mean, like I said, it's really, really sad. A lot of people, like as far as my employees, it was their second home. For my customers, I had customers that would come three times a week. Three times a week. And it became like a second home to them and we made a lot of relationships and great times. And create a lot of great memories for people. A lot of people that have texted me, emailed me, called me personally to thank me and tell me how sad they were to see the restaurant close. This is the one thing they said. They said, Federico, your place created memories for me and my family. That's what they would tell me.

MG: It's a family thing as well. I mean, I think of your dad. Is that, what, 90?

FREDERICO FUOCO: 90 years old, he'd be 91 this year, he comes and sing three times a week.

MG: I was going to say he and your uncle would come and perform music there.

FREDERICO FUOCO: My uncle would come every Friday and Saturday. He'll be 88 this year. I mean, I grew up in a family, musicians. It was very blessed that my dad and my uncle, they would play at weddings and banquets and the Italian community, since 1961 here. So, you know, they're legends in the community and, you know, get emotional thinking about it. And I told my dad I was going to close. You know, he said, Federico, this is the one thing now at my age I look forward to is to come and sing there and to entertain people. And when he said that to me and I broke down and I - like I said, I still get emotional thinking about it - because how do you replace that? How do you place a moment like that? And I had my father and my uncle playing with me and all because I was very blessed. That's done. It's over now.

MG: Just before I let you go, what will you miss most about? About those Friday nights or the Saturday night?

FREDERICO FUOCO: Well, it's [unintelligible] five nights a week or two Sunday. But I miss obviously, I will miss them. The moments with my father, my uncle's family, my mum will come, too. But I would miss that. I'll miss my second family, which was my staff, and I'll miss the relationships with the customer. You know, when a customer in a night comes and tells me, you know, Federico, I can't recall the last time I had this much fun, you know? How do you put a price tag on that? I'll miss those moments. A lot of great relationships. Cause the restaurant is, let's face it, it's got to be the toughest industry out there. But those moments, you know, that's what I'll miss most and entertaining the people.

MG: Your community will miss you as well. Federico, it's good to speak with you. Thank you.

FREDERICO FUOCO: Thank you so much. I really appreciate this opportunity. All the best to you.

MG: And you, Federico Fuoco is the owner of Federico Supper Club in Vancouver, A restaurant that after 21 years of operation closed permanently at the end of March. Some restaurants like Federico US have made that difficult decision to say that the doors that are closed now will stay closed. Others are hanging in there, if only by a thread. Cheryl Doherty is the co-owner of the old Triangle Pub in Halifax.

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You know what I'm saying? What I'm going into debt. I'm going into debt. The bank's like, well, you know, we can give you a small business loan, you secure your house and your savings with. You know, and that way you can pay your landlord. So I pay my landlord. And what does he do? He turns around to give the money to the banks for his mortgage? And it's just a matter, now, how far into debt do we go for. It's no longer viable to reopen. There's no business model. We're going a quarter of a million dollars in debt to pay rent. There's no business model for that.

MG: Establishments have been able to stay open with limited takeout or drive through service. And that includes my next guests, eight Tim Hortons locations throughout central Alberta. Tanya Doucette is starting to open dining rooms there as well. Tanya, good morning to you.

TANYA DOUCETTE: Good morning, Matt.

MG: We're just hearing how difficult of a decision it was for Federico, given everything that he was facing. What are the last couple of months been like for you and for your businesses?

TANYA DOUCETTE: Well, the first portion of the shutdown was I mean, honestly, it was scary, it was the largest financial shock we've ever experienced in business. And I say that after five years of a deep economic downturn in Alberta. But I mean, all of a sudden, one night, basically in the middle of March, you know, business fell off a cliff. And you're trying to figure out what to do. How do you keep your team and your guests safe? Will you be able to continue operating? I have never - I've had sleepless nights in business, but I've never laid awake running numbers like I did during those first few weeks. We have 131 families counting on us to make payroll. How are we going to keep making payroll? How we're going to keep making sure that they have enough hours to support their families, how we're going to keep the doors open. So, you know, it's scary at first, but as the crisis progressed, we were so grateful to have the infrastructure in place to be able to keep serving our community and support frontline workers through a drive to take away counter delivery service kerbside. We've been really fortunate.

MG: What sort of changes are you making in the restaurant now that some of the dining rooms are starting to reopen?

TANYA DOUCETTE: So reopening our dining rooms. We're taking a cautious and slow approach to that. We opened initially a couple of our larger spaces last week when the Alberta government first allowed that just because we have more room to operate, more room to space the tables out, you know, simple things like arrows on the floor, a directional arrows used one door for entry, only another for exit. We have temperature checks for our team members before they come on shift. We also are wearing PPE. We have masks, we have face shields for cleaning. Hand-washing, obviously, is always a rigorous, you know, part of running a restaurant. But that's, of course, amped up even further during the crisis. And we offer gloves for our team members to wear. We have the acrylic shield both in our drive throughs and at our front counters, floor stickers to make sure that our guests can see where it would be socially appropriate to stand while they're waiting. And then, of course, now that we're able to use our dining rooms, you know, being very careful to wipe down tables and chairs after each guest use, just so that our guests can be confident and our team members can be confident that it's safe for them to return to our restaurant.

MG: What does it mean for you in terms of expenses? And I'm assuming that you have to pay for all of that stuff. How much more does that cost you?

TANYA DOUCETTE: We've definitely seen an impact. Obviously, you know, cleaning supplies and things like that are always part of operating business. But, you know, no one, I think expects that you suddenly you're buying acrylic shield masks for team members, even just the rate you're burning through gloves. And of course, the cleaning that we're doing is even more rigorous schedule than what we normally would do and using and using cleaners for disinfectant. That certainly at cost. But on the other side, if those measures give confidence to both our teams that it's safe to be working and for our guests to know that it's safe for them to return to our restaurants and have that bit of normal in their lives, then it's absolutely obviously worth it to us.

MG: How do you do that? I mean, for your team, that's one thing. But also convincing guests that it's safe to come into a restaurant and sit down, given everything that we've been through over the last couple of months, presumably is quite tricky. How do you go about doing that?

TANYA DOUCETTE: I don't know that that's an active campaign on our part, but I think it's really just being there for our communities, offering the service for those who want to venture out, who need that social interaction or really want to be in that space. But I think for lots of folks, it's going to take some time. We're really fortunate because we have that drive thru option. We have other channels with which we can serve our community. But offering the dining room experience is important, though, for some folks. Right now, the weather's been lovely in Alberta. I would say we have more guests who are enjoying sitting in our parking lots on lawn chairs that they bring from home to visit with their neighbours than actually coming inside the dining room.

MG: And your team feels comfortable and being at work?

TANYA DOUCETTE: My team has been extraordinary. They're just they're just incredible. We have from the beginning made it very clear that the number one thing that matters to us is the safety of our team and our guests. So, you know, obviously we've been really fortunate to have support from Tim Hortons to create a relief policy so that any team member who needed to take time off because they were feeling anything, any sort of symptoms or in need in a case where someone might be diagnosed or have to self isolate that there was support there. So they knew that they could stay home and take care of their families or take care of themselves. And that's been so important, I think, for our team members confidence. And also for our guest confidence as well, just knowing that those policies are in place to support our awesome team members.

MG: I love that image of your parking lot becoming a bit of a picnic site. Tanya, good to speak with you. Thank you.

TANYA DOUCETTE: Thanks so much, Matt.

MG: Tanya Doucette owns eight Tim Hortons locations across central Alberta. She was in Sylvan Lake. Cyrus Cooper has been advising Ontario restaurants on how they might be able to operate in the weeks and months ahead. He's a professor and program coordinator at Centennial College's School of Hospitality, Tourism and Culinary Arts in Toronto. Cyrus, good morning to you.

CYRUS COOPER: Good morning.

MG: What are you hearing from restaurants about what the next few weeks and months are going to look like?

CYRUS COOPER: First of all, thank you very much for having me on the show. And you know, right now, this is a very important, pivotal time in the restaurant industry. And what we're hearing from restaurants, all we're hearing from our partners as well, is they are planning and they're planning to reopen safely with a guest experience in mind, with the staff experience in mind as well. And that's very important as well as what are the staff feeling when they come in? Do they have the proper PPE? Do they have the right support? Are the employers listening to the staff as well to make sure that they can employ some of their qualities and that they and ideas that they have as well, which is very important. We're hearing from companies that the entrance experience has to be very, very important. And to build that trust to post list of measures, what the establishment is taking to protect their dining experience, to block off certain areas of the dining room, to make sure that there is a restroom attendant to make sure that that is clean. Keeping in mind, when we come up to the fall months as well, what coat check.

MG: You mean that the coat check, the washroom, that's one thing. I mean, if you're in the restaurant or you're in a bar or you're going to be able to do what you used to be able to do, which is just go up to the bar and get a drink.

CYRUS COOPER: Very good points. Right now, according to release from different provinces, that is actually something that will actually not be able to be allowed where you can just go up to the bar and get a drink. You will have to be seated. Menus will be different. Most likely there will be digital menus. Most likely people will have the menu located on line and the server will direct you to the Web site to see the menu. Most likely you will not have your water glass filled right at your table. That is something we've become very accustomed to. Or the wine poured directly at the table. This we poured separately and brought to the table in a new glass will be provided when you need a new glass of water. So there's a huge amount of expense and time that will be changed throughout this dining experience.

MG: Do you think that - Federico talked about this - can restaurants actually survive if they're operating at half their capacity or even less than that?

CYRUS COOPER: It is going to be very difficult, very difficult. And you will see a lot of restaurants, sadly, not be able to sustain that operation. Is it possible? Yes. Anything is possible with the right mindset of how are you going to overcome this task? And that is being created with menus, shorten menus, being creative with the dining experience, being creative with the way you staff your restaurant. Having honest conversations with the team members saying we want you to be part of this solution. And there will be some days where you don't have a shift. But when there are days when you don't do have a shift, we're going to make sure it's a very safe environment to return back to. And I think you're going to start seeing some creativity happen in there in the restaurants where, you know, there's talks of restaurants delivering services and then all of a sudden saying, would you like some breakfast for the day, for the next day? And we'll give you a little package to increase revenue as well.

MG: But if you are running at half your capacity and you have somebody who needs to be there to ensure that the washroom is clean, presumably that's going to cost more. Do you think the customers should expect to pay more if they go to the restaurant?

CYRUS COOPER: There is going to be a price increase for sure in menus. There are going to be menus that are shorter in size and there will be a price increase. There is some talk that where every menu item that you have on your menu, the cost of PPE, the cost of extra staffing is probably going to associate a $1 increase on that menu item. And just to pay for that, the one thing that will really help restaurants right now is the government and other organizations helping landlords be able to offer that relief to tenants. If there isn't that relief and the forcing the hand of the landlords to help tenants, that is going to be a significant issue. And you will then have more restaurant failures if there isn't more support for restaurants. As a quick statistic here. The average number of workers required to generate a million dollars in sales. It takes 15 workers for a restaurant, seven workers for retail and four workers for grocery and only one worker for a gas station. So that just gives some perspective there.

MG: Just in the last few seconds that we have, we heard from Federico ran a community restaurant for 21 years, big part of his of his neighbourhood, in his community. Who's going to survive this? Is it just going to be the big chains? And are we going to lose those small neighbourhood restaurants that that end up defining the communities that we live in?

CYRUS COOPER: I think you're going to see some some losses and the. That sustain are the ones that have a clear path. The ones that have taken advice from individuals that are out there. There is Web sites like dinesafe.ca or orhma.com that are providing some great resources for restaurants. And the restaurants that can survive are the local communities that will support them through their BIAs, through their government and through their organizations. Those are the ones that are really going to be able to survive today to get through this and weathered the storm.

MG: So we have a role in this as well as those of us who go to those restaurants.

CYRUS COOPER: Absolutely. We should be lobbying our MPP is lobbying our employees to support the people. The number one activity to go out and celebrate in this country is to go out to a restaurant. And we have to make sure that that is an opportunity to keep existing in Toronto, in the GTA, in Ontario and over Canada. That's a huge priority.

MG: Cyrus, good to speak with you. Thank you.

CYRUS COOPER: Thank you.

MG: Cyrus Cooper, professor and program coordinator at Centennial College's School of Hospitality, Tourism and Culinary Arts in Toronto. We'd love to hear from people who are in this industry. It's a knife edge at the best of times. What are you facing now? Have you had to make the decision like Federico did to close down? You can let us know through the Web site. cbc.ca/thecurrent click on the contact link. The news is next. And then navigating the politics of COVID-19.

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The number of that continue to be lowered in the last few weeks. And we have the lowest number of new cases since April the 11th. So it's encouraging. But it's no time to let our guard down.

Francois Legault continues to make tough choices about how to open and how quickly this is something that's being replicated across this country. Our national affairs panel is coming up after the break. That's in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio One.

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National affairs panel on border restrictions

Guests: Susan Delacourt, Justine Hunter, Emilie Nicolas

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, many questions still swirl around COVID-19, and many of them involve immunity and antibodies. A new task force is setting out to find answers. We'll speak with the co-chair, Dr Catherine Hankins, in about 45 minutes. But first, answering important political questions like who can cross the border?

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JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Canada and the United States have once again agreed to extend by 30 days the current measures in place along the border. This is an important decision that will keep people in both of our countries safe. The decisions that we're taking are very much made week to week in this crisis. The situation is changing rapidly and we're adjusting constantly to what is the right measures for Canadians to get that balance right between keeping people safe and restoring a semblance of normality and economic activity that we all rely on.

MG: It is official the border is remaining closed to non essential travel for at least another month. Our national affairs panellists are here to talk about that and how different parts of this country are dealing with reopening the economy. Susan Delacourt is national columnist for The Toronto Star. She's in Ottawa. Justine Hunter is a political reporter for The Globe and Mail based in Victoria. And Emilie Nicolas is a columnist with the LA devoir and she is in Montreal. Good morning to you all. Susan. Let's talk about the border. You wrote about this two very different leadership styles between Canada and the United States, and now they find themselves on the same page, at least on this issue. How difficult do you think it was to find an agreement on keeping the border closed for now?

SUSAN DELACOURT: Yeah, this is an incredibly interesting story in this whole pandemic, to me anyway, because there are actually two stories. One is, is the story of our political cultures, which have moved - largely because the leadership - has moved in very different ways on the pandemic. You know, pretty much everything Trump is doing. Trudeau is not doing so. You see Trump hurrying up and talking about the economy and where you see Trudeau slowing down, talking about health. Even on the issue of masks, Trump won't wear one. Trudeau will. So there's the story of how divergent we are and Canadians are noticing, you see polls saying, you know, we don't want to be like the United States in all of this. And yet to close the border, ironically enough, is an incredibly complicated, complex decision that involves a huge amount of negotiation over what is essential travel, what can get through and what can't. So in the big picture, Canada and the United States couldn't be further apart. But on this issue of shutting a border, they have had to negotiate intensely down to the tiniest details.

MG: Well, part of this is also about health, as you say, but also around the economy. And that's been the driving force, it seems, in the United States. How tricky is it for this government, given the public health, but also the economic stakes? We have an economy that is in tatters.

SUSAN DELACOURT: And also incredibly integrated to the United States. And we saw this in the trade wars. We saw this briefly there. Remember, there was a brief flare up where Trump was going to invoke a defence production act in which all medical supplies and everything in the United States that was being produced would go to Americans first. And Canadians, just like in the trade war, reminded him that and the United States that a lot of the traffic goes north to south to. And so we have an exemption for that. But negotiating that, and I'm told, was an intense process, very similar to the North American free trade negotiations, where, you know, point by point, bit by bit, governor, by governors, state by state The United States was made aware of the fact that Canada and the United States are basically almost one economy. And unravelling that even in a pandemic is really, really difficult.

MG: Justine Hunter, the health minister in British Columbia, said that he wants the border closed for a significant period of time. What sort of reaction are you hearing from the political leaders in B.C.?

JUSTINE HUNTER: Yeah, the announcement yesterday was certainly welcome by the government here in British Columbia. B.C. was pushing hard for the border to close in the first place and well ahead of Ottawa and making that announcement. Initially, they were telling visitors to stay away. And when Canada was still talking about it, trying to organise some kind of way to ensure that arrivals that did come in had a self-isolation plan, B.C. went ahead and put its own officials in those points of border crossings and an airports to make sure arrivals to B.C. have a self-isolation plan. If they don't, we put people in quarantine in hotels where they're fed, but they have to maintain that distance for at least two weeks. Now, this is also for just nonessential travel. We kept the border open for the movement of goods. B.C. has a very good close relationship with Washington state. And so there's been a very reciprocal discussion going back and forth across the border here about we want to continue and allow the movement of goods. And there was one kind of olive branch yesterday. The provincial health officer, Bonnie Henry, was starting to say, well, we do need to find a way to reunite families across the border, so there would still be isolation plans in place. But residents or family members should be able to travel. So that's the first softening I've seen from D.C. here.

MG: Emilie Nicolas, what about in Quebec? There's a close connection and we've seen this and this is one of the reasons why Francois Legault has been saying that Montreal still is an epicentres because of that connection between Quebec, say, and New York. What did the premier say about the border closure?

EMILIE NICOLAS: Well, yes. New York is just next door. New York is the centre of the epidemic in the U.S. and so people are concerned about the border more in the public health fashion. Legault is very happy that the border is being closed, but at the same time, logoed and need to bend himself backward to be happy about that kind of that kind of thing. There's been a confusion of the issue of closing the border and the recent days as well with the issue of asylum seekers who used to cross from New York State to shop and get back. Although it has nothing to do with what was just being negotiated. But in terms of how it's being received, because people tend to confuse the two issues and it's being received well as well for things that have nothing to do with the economy, in fact, that we're discussing. I just think it's going to get really interesting when Trump wants to reopen, wants to look like he's got it back in control, that the economy can reopen. And then it's going to be up to Canadians to show that it's good that their borders stay closed without hurting Trump's feeling or making it sound like the U.S. is that is a danger. I think when we get in that zone, that's when it's going to get interesting to do the negotiation again.

MG: The sense, Susan, is that all of the provinces are speaking or singing from the same hymn book is, as you know, the federal government. Who'd have thunk it?

SUSAN DELACOURT: Yes, indeed. That yesterday, just to make sure, but sure enough, what the premiers are saying on these weekly calls with the prime minister is do not open that border. And you see them saying it in their daily news conferences, too. You know, the idea- you know, I actually think that you and I were talking about how this year would look, 2020. And I think we predicted the year of national disunity. And instead, what we're seeing is a remarkable degree of unity among the provinces. You know, people who are on those calls on the, it's usually Thursday night or thereabouts, say that the provinces are working together remarkably, probably better than we've seen in years. And on this issue, on the Canadian and U.S. border staying close, there they are as one.

MG: Let's talk about the great reopening, Justine, in your province. You're ahead of the curve. And there are things that are happening there that many of us elsewhere in the country could only dream about, like going to a restaurant, for example. How are things starting to look different in British Columbia?

JUSTINE HUNTER: Well, first of all, Matt, you've got to remember that our shutdown was actually quite soft. A lot of retail stores were allowed to stay open all along as long as they could maintain some safety measures. Construction continued. Schools stayed open for thousands of children of essential service workers. But classes went online for everyone else. So what did close were a number of stores and facilities that really brought people into close contact. So hair salons, nightclubs, dining and restaurants. So the first phase of reopening this week is with new guidelines for safety for each sector. So if you go into a restaurant right now, you might see Plexiglas glass barriers dividing the diners and people will be spaced out, lots of space between the tables. Your barber might be wearing a mask or maybe your favourite tattoo artist. And in June, we'll see some part time classes for the K-12 sector, but only on a voluntary basis. And then the big one is we're resuming elective surgeries. There's a huge backlog of surgeries that were there in place before the pandemic. And now that, of course, is this mountain of surgeries, because we had to empty out the hospitals just to be prepared for all those COIVD cases that never really came. So we still got a ban on gatherings of more than 50 people. That's going to stay in place. I don't know for how long. Certainly for the indefinite period. And looking forward, nonessential travel. Most schools still online. Self-isolation, still required for anyone arriving from travellers returning to B.C. But it will look different. A number of restaurants, for example, say they cannot operate with these new rules. So there's probably one in 10 restaurants that are actually opening again for in dining experience. They'll be doing takeout all along and maybe half of them will be open again by the end of the month.

MG: I mean, there are a couple of issues that people are waiting for. One, you know, going to a restaurant, maybe getting your haircut. Maybe some people are waiting to go to the favourite tattoo artist. The other issue, though, Susan, is really about schools. And we saw yesterday Ontario following the lead of provinces like Alberta and Nova Scotia saying that the class is going to be closed until at least the fall. It's raised issues around where kids are going to go and questions around child care as well. Is now the time that Ottawa finally makes good on promises that have been made in past for a national child care strategy?

SUSAN DELACOURT: Well, you know, it's while you're spending money, why not? There is so many competing demands right now. And you know that the chorus of voices has started on how we're going to pay for all of this. But you're right to say that child care is an issue of a number of facets to parents, to society in general. One of them if kids are getting care, their parents can go to work. And I think we saw that was a big a motivating factor in Quebec, for example, where you could where Legault decided to keep high school students out of school. But the younger kids who needed care could go so their parents could go to work. And I don't know that wise in any position right now for a new national program, although how would we notice? It might just lip out an announcement.

MG: In the billions of dollars that are being spent right now.

SUSAN DELACOURT: Exactly from the doorstep of Rideau Cottage every day. There's also questions about a pharmacare program and all of the things that truly is talked about. Building a better society when all this is over. That there is going to be some kind of- they are giving some serious thought to the kind of society they want to build. And I think that's at both ends of the age spectrum, that child care maybe, but elder care would definitely be. And I think that's where you're going to see all the attention in the early days after this pandemic, whenever that after time in.

MG: Emilie Nicolas, the premier of Quebec, was using a hockey analogy yesterday saying don't take a dumb penalty and lose the game right when it matters. What sort of pushback is he facing from critics who say there's been flare ups in Montreal? There are questions around who is actually being impacted by this pandemic the most. What sort of pushback is he facing from critics who say that he has mismanaged this?

EMILIE NICOLAS: Well, there's very much a division in giveback socially since forever, but also independent make between Montreal and the rest the rest of Quebec. So the rest of Quebec has been reopening elementary school. Montreal have that postponed since September. We've just learned that stores might be reopening next week in Montreal. They've been reopened already since the beginning of the month in Upper Montreal. So there's very much that this division and this division follows as well where are people dying and mostly the pandemic, at this point, the COVID-19, is concentrated in Montreal and in the Montreal area, which is interesting because that's where Legault doesn't have any foothold. Legault has only one [unintelligible] in Montreal. His party is very much a party of not Montreal. And also with him, Montreal. What you see is at first you had the central neighbourhoods being affected because that's where a middle class people were coming back from vacation. One of the reasons why Quebec has so many cases is because March break is happened one earlier, so we didn't have time to cancel that. But after when it moved to long term houses, then people sort of had it done and people are the kind of like discovered that most people were working with the elders in Quebec are mostly women and women of colour, black women for the most part, especially in the Montreal area. You saw people who have been pushed out of the job market in other ways. And so this is the only option that they had is to go work as older [unintelligible] for a $12 an hour. And so these are the people who are, being on the frontlines and these are the people that the local government has the least connection to. And so we see as well a lot of mishaps and mismanagement and lack of planning because the public health doctors, including the public, the public service, just have no idea how to deal with Quebec's diversity and how to make a plan for those neighbourhoods that are racialized neighbourhoods who are also impoverished neighbourhoods, because these are people who've been pushed out of the other job opportunities by lack of recognition for their diplomas, for example, or just systemic discrimination.

MG: Justine, what have we seen in BC? I mean, this is a similar situation in some ways. We've talked about this. What's been happening in the Downtown Eastside?

JUSTINE HUNTER: Yes, there's been. Of course, before the pandemic, there was a health crisis going on in the Downtown Eastside with drug overdoses. And so you've got these two now health crises butting up against each other. And you can't ignore one without the other. There's a lot of effort right now because there's been tent cities sort of popping up all over here in Victoria and obviously in Vancouver as well. And then a real effort to try and find accommodation for moving people out of these tents and into hotels. So they're turning these hotels into facilities for housing. But you've also got- yes, it's a very difficult area to go in and say, well, we're going to try and get everyone to wear a mask and do social distancing. And so it's been a real challenge. I think B.C. was already working on a lot of this stuff in terms of trying to find housing, as you know, more than a decade of effort in that. So it's not a new thing. But you've also got the challenges around a supply for drugs. And so there's people working on that. But obviously, the supply change has changed as well. If you're taking the illicit drugs that you're seeing problems increasing around that as well. So it's been a very difficult one.

MG: There has been a call, Susan, for Canada to start collecting race based statistics around COVID-19. This idea that we're all in this together is not being shared equally. Last month, federal health officials said that there aren't plans to do that. Why is there the resistance to do this, do you think, at the federal level?

SUSAN DELACOURT: Well, I think it's fraught because, as you know, privacy and other concerns and we you know, we've seen this just in census information [unintelligible] over this. So far, we see that only in Ontario and in Toronto, there are now steps to collect race based data in the COVID data. But so far, last I've heard, public health agency of Canada's still only considering it. I think it's one of those areas where we want that information. But the collection of that information is very fraught question.

MG: Emilie, I went to Justine as you were talking about this, but you say that that's in some ways this is an issue for the Quebec government because it doesn't have a foothold in in those communities and doesn't understand the diversity, the true diversity of Quebec.

EMILIE NICOLAS: I'm seeing community organizations doing fundraising to do volunteer work in their neighbourhoods like Montreal, for example, to do things that are supposed to be the government's responsibility. So it leaves community organizations who've been chronically underfunded as well for the same reasons that I was just mentioning to go and distribute masks to do public health awareness and all the different things, which is that people actually speak. And so it's a challenge. And it's also when the government support does come, it comes late. And so the it's frustrating. And the same thing with race based data. Right. We've seen those stories coming from the US back in March of how African-Americans were dubbed, you know, two times, three times impacted more and more in urban areas because they are the essential workers. They've been pushing in those in the working class. And that's why they cannot afford to just stay home and that's why they get infected. And while, you know, we in Canada, where the Canada story is looking at, oh, this is awful in the U.S., we just you know, we've been collecting data. And I think indigenous peoples and all the privacy issues seems to not exist for that. But when it comes to how it would disproportionately impact some neighbourhoods in our urban and in our metropolis, in our biggest cities, it's just something that kind of caught us on guard in Vancouver and Toronto and in Montreal. And so I think it speaks to Canada's inability to see those things coming. And I don't think it's about, you know, collecting the data, how difficult that is. I know that for some other disease are some other public health issues, people do collect it sometimes they don't make it public or they're careful about how they make it public - not to stigmatize. But collection of that is something that exists. And we don't we're not fussing about privacy or anything like that for gender or for age. When we collect, we're perfectly able to do that. And so I think there's just a discomfort with the notion of race based idea with the notion that Canada is a place that needs that kind of data to be able to have an effective public health strategy. And so the discomfort this good is causing delays. And fortunately, the delays might lead to life being lost in Ontario, in Montreal, where that's very much where this COVID-19 issue is very much now being concentrated in the poorest immigrant neighbourhoods of the city.

MG: It's fascinating to hear what's happening across the country again, people working together, but there are still perhaps roles for national leadership and in sort of taking on some of those stickier issues. Great to speak with you all this morning. We will talk again. Thank you.

GUESTS: Thanks again.

MG: Susan Delacourt is national columnist for The Toronto Star. She was in Ottawa. Justine Hunter, political reporter for The Globe and Mail. She's in Victoria. And Emilie Nicolas is a columnist with Lowed d'Ivoire in Montreal. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. Schools, as we were just talking about, are mainly staying closed for now. We'll hear more about plans to reopen them in our next half hour. What will the fall, for example, look like? We'll try and gaze into the crystal ball and get some sense of that coming up. In the meantime, Scott Heaslip from Stoneville, Ontario, wrote in to suggest a song for these times. Scott says that this perfectly captures the really bored teenage mind. Here, perhaps for the first time on The Current, it's the Ramones and I want to be sedated.

SOUNDCLIP

[Song]

MG: Well, I never. The Ramones, I want to be sedated. Coming up in 90 seconds, teachers are in a tough spot teaching online, also planning to return to the classroom. It's not going to happen in many provinces until at least September. What will those classrooms look like? Coming up this fall. We'll check in with an Ontario teachers union about the announcement that came out yesterday in Ontario and what the future could hold. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current. We're back in 90 seconds. Stay with us.

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Suspend standardized testing until 2022 to let students 'focus on rebuilding,' says Ont. teachers' union head

Guests: Liz Stuart, Charles Pascal, Dr. Catherine Hankins

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. In some provinces like British Columbia and Quebec, a return to school is underway and in others, the doors will remain closed for at least a few more months. Either way, the prospect of sending kids into that busy environment can be a stressful one.

SOUNDCLIP

When I think about my littlest going to start School, JK, in September and we don't really know what's going to happen, I guess what goes through my mind is I'm sad that he won't have the same experiences his older sisters. I worry that despite it probably being a good idea that teachers are going to be wearing masks and that might be scary for them. I worry that they won't have the same kind of camaraderie and freeplay that they're used to having in pre-school. And JK. And I worry about everyone's safety, teachers, staff, students, everyone.

MG: Christie Thomas is a mum in Toronto and she has a few months to worry about that safety since Ontario schools will not open before September. Teachers are preparing for the return to classes now. Liz Stuart is the president of the Ontario English Catholic Teachers Association. Liz, good morning.

LIZ STUART: Good morning. How are you?

MG: I'm well, thanks. Was the decision to keep kids out of the classroom in the province of Ontario the right one?

LIZ STUART: I absolutely I mean, it's based on medical advice, and we would always say that that's what we should be doing. So if that is what we've been advised, then it's the right decision to make.

MG: What do you know about what the classroom might look like in September?

LIZ STUART: I mean, at this point in time, we are sincerely hoping that we'll be part of whatever planning takes place. And, you know, we truly hope that that planning includes, you know, extensive feedback from public health authorities to make sure that all of the correct security and safety measures are in are in place. And I'm also you know, we truly hope that, you know, mental health professionals are also able to guide us because there's the physical safety. But there's also that mental health issue that's going to come with the heightened anxiety that that's, quite frankly, both the children and the adults are going to be feeling coming back into that environment.

MG: So that's the process. I mean, practically what could the classroom look like? I mean, people are talking about rotations and size of classroom. What would, you know, an appropriate number of students be in a classroom in this new reality that will be in.

LIZ STUART: Well, I imagine that's going to again, it will depend on advice received. But the reality is there are physical restrictions within in classrooms when we start talking about distancing. And so, what kind of distance will be appropriate? How do we make sure that we can maintain that? You know, as an elementary classroom teacher, I can tell you, especially in the primary grades. It's going to be very challenging to have that new reality in place with students. So, you know, it's making sure that we can try and keep students safe to keep that physical distancing, but knowing that our schools aren't built for this. And so it's going to take very careful planning moving forward.

MG: As a teacher, I mean, you think of teachers and you're representing teachers as well as the head of your union, do you think the teachers, for example, should be wearing personal protective equipment? Should they be wearing masks in the classroom?

LIZ STUART: That's absolutely. If that's what's going to keep everybody safe, we absolutely should be. And as should the students. I mean, it's not just the adults we have to keep safe. It's also, you know, the students we work with every day and making sure that they're kept safe with whatever equipment they will need. And that's going to be part of the challenge, but it's going to have to be done, like I say, in a very structured and very well-thought out and planned manner so that everybody can feel confident that it's a safe environment as we can possibly make it.

MG: Well, and that's the thing that parents are wondering about as well. Septembre Anderson is a mum in Toronto with a 12 year old son. She's happy the province is waiting in terms of the return to school, but has some concerns. Have a listen.

SOUNDCLIP

Children aren't good at social distancing. It's simply not something that they can do. And I just don't think it's easy, not a good idea. A lot of this rush to open is not safe. We cannot afford for the children to be on the front lines of the second wave.

MG: How do you ensure that a class full of elementary students follows the rules like social distancing?

LIZ STUART: Well, that that is the million dollar question, right? I mean, Michael, as I say, I'm an elementary classroom teacher. It's going to be about what do we do at recess time? You know, kids need to be outside. They need to be running. They need to get, you know, the energy expended. But how do you have them do that in a way that doesn't involve physical contact? Or even just distancing. You know,. How do you gather as a community, which is part and parcel of what we do in school.

MG: But also, how do you learn and how do you test people? I mean, there are standardized tests, for example, where kids are gathered in a classroom together and they take this test. Everyone takes the test at the same time to try and figure out how kids are learning. Should things like that happen?

LIZ STUART: Well, I think one of the hopes that we have is that the government will look — certainly in Ontario — look at suspending our standardized testing again for next year, for a variety of reasons. The reasons you've talked about, which is how do we gather students together and actually do this testing. But the other reason is, you know, students have not been receiving the same education that they would get were they in classrooms. And so a lot of what's going to be taking place on September is going to be: number one, is preparing students to learn within that environment again, because that is a big part of what takes place in schools every day, is making sure that kids are ready to learn. So dealing with those anxieties, making sure kids are ready to learn again. And then filling gaps, doing that gap analysis of what pieces do we need to to bolster, what parts of the curriculum need to be done over again, what are the things we need to do to make sure those kids have all the information they need, and all those building blocks in place, so that they have a strong foundation in their education as they move forward. And if we're too worried about, you know, we're also now going to have to do this standardized testing in a few months, I don't think that- I think taking away that additional stress on everybody and making it so that we can truly focus on rebuilding is more important. So my hope would be that, you know, the government recognizes that and that we suspend them for another year.

MG: Just before I let you go, there's an editorial that's in the Toronto Star this morning saying that some of the onus is on unions like yours to be flexible, that everybody needs to be in here. Everybody needs to be willing to make accommodations. Do you agree?

LIZ STUART: I think we have been and I know my members have been very flexible. Teachers use their professional judgement every day in what works best for the students they serve. And I think, you know, that they are carefully choosing the correct approaches, that meet the needs of the students they serve. And that's what we continue to do and certainly what we support our members to do, because we know that trying to reach all of the students in a time that is extremely difficult and challenging to do so.

MG: It sure is. Liz, it's great to talk to you.

LIZ STUART: Thank you. It's nice to talk to you, too.

MG: Liz Stewart, president of the Ontario English Catholic Teachers Association. Whether it's June or September or later than that, it certainly won't be business as usual in Canadian classrooms. Charles Pascal is a professor of human development and applied psychology at the Ontario Institute for Studies and Education at the University of Toronto. He's also a former deputy minister of education in Ontario. Charles, good morning to you.

CHARLES PASCAL: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What do you think school is going to look like come this fall?

CHARLES PASCAL: Well, I think, you know, I think you and Liz, had a conversation that deals with the challenges of the nuts and bolts, that is physical distancing, you know, personal protection gear, hand-washing, temperature checks, all the kinds of things that are taking place around the world, whether it's China, Japan, Denmark or Ontario or Quebec. Quebec, was a different situation, which we can talk about. But. So I think the nuts and bolts will be challenging regarding issues of class size in this room, while the teachers teaching in this room and a [unintelligible] cast where students, in a smaller number, will be in another space listening to the same teacher. Those are the nuts and bolts. But I do want to underscore something that Liz said at the outset of your interview. That is, unless we deal with the social and emotional issues first for teachers, there needs to be a at least a three or four weeks guided discussion about teachers and what they've gone through. Their own mental health has to be looked at. The masks coming down, when the flight attendant says, put the oxygen mask on you right first before you deal with your students. And also, they need to be expecting students will be coming back with differential social, emotional needs. And we also have to remember is that the old normal wasn't working for far too many kids based on a lot of individual difference.

MG: Where do you think - kids haven't been in school across this country for a long time? And if it's September, it'll be six months before kids are back in the classroom. Where has that left students, do you think?

CHARLES PASCAL: Well, first of all, it's left them with, you know, lots of stress. They get that stress reinforced by parents who are wondering will they ever catch up with the curriculum? So that's why there has to be intentional conversations with students, with teachers who've been anticipating and trained to have those conversations. It's not good enough to say how was your extended vacation in COVID-19? It's: how are you doing. And so when you talk to a friend, Martin, you say, you know, so how you doing? And they seem fine. And then you ask again, how are you doing? Well, I'm doing okay. And then you ask a third time and you get into a conversation about some of those attendant emotional issues. And so individual support for kids and also for teachers is going to be actually critical. Worries about catching up, those kinds of things will take care of themselves if everybody's feeling healthy and those issues are dealt with.

MG: What does that mean? I mean, as a parent, I ask that. What does that mean, that those sorts of worries about catching up will take care of themselves? Because I think there are a lot of parents who think that their kids now are going to be behind the eight ball because they haven't- Sure, there's there's distance learning and we can talk about that in a moment. But know that the kids haven't been in a classroom and it's a different kind of education. So what do you mean? It'll take care of itself.

CHARLES PASCAL: So I suppose I'm a fifth grade teacher teaching a particular subject and I'm inheriting fourth grade students who've been through the COVID-19 experience. It's the same subject. As a talented pedagogue, I would hope, that what I would do is ask two questions. One: what are the essentials for the students to perform well in my fifth grade class? And I'm going to do, secondly, I'm going to do a pre-test to find out what they know and what they don't know in terms of those essentials. It's not to test them, it's to find out what kind of remedial loop I can do to kind of make the transition much easier. So there's all sorts of things that can be done where we focus on the learning outcomes instead of wondering about how we can cram the content. So this is why the mindset about how to do things like online learning and returned to school has to go from how can I cram content and move to a more sophisticated approach to learning, which is what are they need to learn and what do they need to have when they start a new a new class in a new grade. Those are the kinds of things that have to be looked at as part of a reimagined new normal.

MG: In the meantime, we're in this situation now and this will continue through the summer and perhaps into the fall, where people are at home and they're teaching their own kids. They're involved in online distance learning as well. Listen to a mum from Toronto. Vanessa Yusef has three kids in grades three, two and senior kindergarten in the Catholic School Board in Toronto. She's working from home, homeschooling solo while her husband works outside of the house.

SOUNDCLIP

I think everyone thinks that since a short period of time, six weeks until the end of school, but really with the cancellation of overnight camp, the uncertainty of day camp and the summer, it just makes it very challenging because I looked down the pike doing this for another four months.

MG: Charles, Pascal, how long can parents can be- can they be expected to continue doing all of this, juggling all of these different balls?

CHARLES PASCAL: What I admire about Vanessa is how she responded to the question with a sense of superficial calm, because beneath that that that calmness is a very, very stressful situation. And this is one of the issues that we have to re-imagine regarding what is the role of the parent in terms of providing support to a child's learning and what's the collaborative relationship that needs to be different and better than it used to be with the educators for whom they share these kids. And so this is a highly stressful situation. Parents who have been kind of fearing the stress from on high from Queens Park have really had a mixed sense of what their role is. They should not be homeschoolers. They should not be teachers. They should be providing space and place. Very difficult if you got two or three kids. And very difficult if everybody's fighting for Internet strength, even with have families, let alone those who don't have Internet or the devices at home. So the role of the parents in relation to the collaborative approach to supporting kids learning and the relationship with teachers, that has to have a an update and a rescaling regarding what that role that you see just.

MG: In the last few seconds that we have, you see this difficult time as an opportunity to rethink the classroom and rethink what public education in particular could be?

CHARLES PASCAL: Matt, if we don't take advantage of all the lessons learned in the segment, doesn't allow for at least 10 or 15 things that I think have not been working that have been identified because the curtain has been pulled back. Many of us have known about these issues, but more and more people know that the old normal wasn't working. And there's a whole bunch of lessons learned that need some short term fixes and some medium and long range, a re-imagine of education in Ontario and across Canada.

MG: But in the meantime, for those parents who are stressed out, you say, don't worry that these things--.

CHARLES PASCAL: I say basically do whatever you can to breathe. It's going to be okay. The kids are going to get, they're going to get their report cards or whatever it looks like. They're going to be back when it's safe. And hopefully they'll be back in a way where the teachers get to calm. They will get to calm. Parents will feel better. It is going to be okay. It's easy for me to say, but in fact, that can be the case. People just need to just take a little bit of a breath, do a little more meditation. They should meditate as often as they wash their hands. I think we will look back on this as an opportunity to improve education around the world. If people pay attention to that. The notion of just focussing on the nuts and bolts of distancing and space in schools, that's just not going to [unintelligible].

MG: Charles, thank you.

CHARLES PASCAL: Thanks so much.

MG: Charles Pascal, professor of human development and Applied Psychology at the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education. Parents, teachers, students, how is this new reality working and what are you thinking about when it comes to school in the fall? Are you concerned? Are you optimistic? Do you see an opportunity for change? Let us know. cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the contact link or you can tweet us @TheCurrentCBC.

[Music]

MG: I'm Matt Galloway you're listening to The Current when Dr. Catherine Hankins was on the frontline of the fight to stop the spread of HIV. She imagined that that would be the greatest challenge of her career. And then she met COVID-19, another virus, raising many, many questions about immunity. Antibodies. How it spreads. Dr. Hankins hopes to get answers to at least some of those mysteries. In her role as the co-chair of the federal COVID-19 Immunity Task Force, she is a professor of public and population health at McGill University. Dr. Hankins, good morning.

CATHERINE HANKINS: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What is the focus of this federal COVID-19 immunity task force?

CATHERINE HANKINS: Well, what we're trying to do basically is to catalyze and to support and where possible and appropriate to harmonize what's going on across Canada. Already we've been trying to scope who's got who's got studies that are planned, who's got blood banks, who has collecting blood. So that's one part of it, is to see what's going on, see if we can harmonize, co-ordinate support where there are gaps. We're also looking at can we get rapidly, get a standardized. So we've had two essays that have been approved by Health Canada for antibody testing. They'll they're more coming in the pipeline. We're going to need more than one or two for sure. So we're involving the Canadian Public Health Laboratory Network to cross validate tests so that we can come up with really good tests for studies going forward. And then we're looking at the field testing the field studies that will give us a better idea about what's going on in Canada, who has been exposed to this virus, who's got antibodies. And then the final area we're working on is the immune science area, which is. So you have antibodies. What do those mean? Do they provide you with any level of protection? And if so, for how long?

MG: What is the big question that you - I'm sure there are a lot, but of the top of mind the question that you have that you still want answered when it comes to this virus?

CATHERINE HANKINS: I am personally really interested to know how exactly it's working. And what we can do where we can intervene. So I'm thinking back to HIV, where we in the beginning thought everybody could get it. Nobody was going to be saved and so on. And we figured out then how it was transmitted. And subsequently, we've come up with prevention tools and with treatment. We don't have a cure. And a vaccine has completely eluded us because this virus keeps on replicating and mutating and escaping from my antibody responses. So I want to know, you know, what can we learn from HIV that we can apply to SARS COVID-2, you know, how does it how does it attach to cells to enter cells? Can we block that? What is our immune response? Why is it that, you know, some people have no symptoms. Some people have symptoms. Some people have severe symptoms. Other people have almost like a long tail. They're not over it. In a couple of weeks, it kicks back and starts to affect other parts of the body. So I think we need to know a lot more about how we are responding to this virus is a totally novel coronavirus. So we have no experience with it prior to that. Now and then. What can we learn about who respond well to it? What was their immune response and how can that help inform eventually vaccine? And I have to say, you know, we absolutely need a vaccine.

MG: Are you optimistic about that? Because, as you mentioned, there isn't an HIV vaccine. And there is talk within the scientific world that this may not be solved through a vaccine, that we might have to figure out other strategies.

CATHERINE HANKINS: I think we absolutely need a vaccine and I am hopeful and I'm optimistic about it. I was you know, I've worked on a number of different viruses. And when I think about them, you know, hepatitis B, we got a vaccine for that. Human papilloma virus, we got a vaccine for that. Hepatitis C, we have a very, very effective treatment, in fact, a cure. It's HIV that's kind of eluded us, as I've mentioned, in terms of developing a vaccine, I think we can get a vaccine for coronavirus. And I think that we've got such a tremendous effort going on worldwide, including one that was announced last week in Canada that I think we will have one. I'm concerned about the timeframe to get it and I'm concerned about the manufacturing capacity to make sure that we can get it to everybody who needs it, because the vast majority of the world is vulnerable to this coronavirus.

MG: Do we have any sense - part of this is about testing, but do we really have any sense yet as to how many people have been exposed to this virus in Canada?

CATHERINE HANKINS: No, we don't. We can look at the number of cases, obviously, and testing strategies have varied by province. So some people who had symptoms didn't get tested if they were not that ill. As we know, there are asymptomatic infections. So we can look around the world to see where else people have been testing. And if I talk with my colleagues, you know, they say, you know, maybe it's one percent, maybe it's two percent, maybe it's three percent. I think we're going to be disappointed. Those people who are talking about getting herd immunity are going to be disappointed when we actually do, we're able to do, a representative Canadian population survey to see what we've got. And I certainly would predict it to be below five percent.

MG: So an immunity test. In the best case scenario. Who would you hope to test?

CATHERINE HANKINS: Who would I hope to test for the immunity test? I mean, I think, you know, our first thing to do is to try to get a feel for what's happened across the country. It's possible to get. So we're looking for sources of blood that are national and that can give us that kind of perspective. We would obviously want to have it disaggregated by age and by sex and geography and so on. Then we want to look at specific populations that have been highly exposed and we know them. We know it's our healthcare workers. It's our care workers in homes for the elderly. It's our residents of homes for the elderly. We're interested in looking at incarcerated populations, indigenous populations. We're seeing outbreaks in communities. We're seeing them in friendship centres. We need to get a feel for who- it seems to go to very vulnerable parts of our society. And we need to better understand that in order to be able to know how best to proceed. Not just now in terms of the public health response, but also in terms of who would be top priority for an effective vaccine.

MG: Just in the last couple of minutes, I started by saying in some ways that you thought the work that you had done on HIV AIDS would be, you know, the great challenge of your career. And then along comes COVID-19. What has this taught you wrote about the challenges that we face and how to face them?

CATHERINE HANKINS: I I feel a lot of humility. I think there's a lot of things. There are a lot of things from HIV that we can apply to COVID-19 and the tremendous scientific effort on HIV, the mobilization of communities to respond. And it's definitely sure that for COVID-19, this is a whole of society response that's needed. We all have our part to play. But a real humility. And also, I guess I feel really, really passionate. You know, I really appreciate the work of Jon Cohen, who's a science writer. And he basically said this needs all of us addressing this. We really have to get out of this.

MG: And you need to be humble and you do have a sense of humility in the face of something like that.

CATHERINE HANKINS: Yes. Because this is you know, we're learning new things every day about this. This is not a slam dunk. And so it's a challenge. And I think we're all up to that challenge. And we've got to be realising that, as many people have said, this is a long haul marathon. It's not going to be a quick win. There are no easy solutions, but we do all need to work together on this.

MG: I'm going to take your optimism to heart, because it is a long haul. And I think that that can grind people down.

CATHERINE HANKINS: Absolutely, absolutely, and I think we're seeing it, we're seeing the trade offs that we need to be making between, you know, protecting our vulnerable people as we start to re-enter and re stimulate the economy and so on, how do we protect those who are most vulnerable? You know, how can we move for as safely as possible? We've flattened the curve, which is great, but we now need to get more time. We need that time to save us, waiting for the vaccine to come.

MG: We will talk again. In the meantime, it's a real pleasure to speak with you this morning. Thank you.

CATHERINE HANKINS: It's a pleasure to speak with you, Matt. Thank you.

MG: Dr. Catherine Hankins is the co-chair of the Federal COVID-19 Immunity Task Force. She's also a professor of public health and population health at McGill University. That's it for the current for today. Coming up next on your CBC Radio One, it's Q. Mr. Tom Power is the host and he is in his comfortable chair. Tom, good morning.

TOP POWERS: Matt. How are you?

MG: Are you having these pandemic dreams?

TP: Now... Let me think about this. Yeah, I've had dreams that the pandemic is not happening. I've had dreams that I'm going through the pandemic with my family back in Newfoundland. And I've had dreams that I didn't eat an entire box of Triscuits last night.

MG: I keep having dreams about being in an elevator and people keep trying to get into the elevator. And somebody who's there with me says, no, I'm sorry, you can't get in the elevator. You have to wait for the next one.

TP: Is that a metaphor, I wonder?

MG: I don't know what it means.

TP: Here's what I think now. I might say a joke, but I haven't had any on sort of dream analysis. It is the worst ones. And sometimes the best ones are the ones where I wake up and I forget that this all this stuff is going on. You know, I wake up and I go, okay, time to go life back to normal.

MG: It's a nice few seconds before you realise what's actually happening.

TP: You know, I'll take him. Cool show today, man. We get the winner. Canadian winner of the Griffin Poetry Prise of live poetry on the radio.

MG: I look forward to that, Tom. Thank you.

TP: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Tom Powers, a host of Q. It's next on CBC Radio One, right after the CBC News. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current. Thanks for listening. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

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Wednesday May 20, 2020 Full Transcript

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