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The AIH Transcript for May 18, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Calling for an investigation. The World Health Organization's many masters meet to discuss the pandemic -- as a former director at the WHO tells us, the agency is in danger of losing the world's trust completely.

CH: Same old song. A controversial law about the Chinese national anthem leads to scuffling on the floor of Hong Kong's legislature. Several pro-democracy lawmakers, including our guest, are physically removed.

CO: Fallen Snowbird. The crash in Kamloops, British Columbia has left grief and questions in its wake. We hear from two women who rushed to the scene to try to help, and from a friend of Captain Jennifer Casey, who died in the crash.

CH: Living with it. The writer Brian Brett knows what it's like to endure sickness. But he could not have predicted his stay in a COVID ward would end quite the way it did.

CO: Concerted effort. After a long back and forth with Arkansas's Department of Health. A live concert with real fans in the crowd is set to take place tonight. We reach one of the performers.

CH: And a loon again, naturally. By request from our archives, the tale of a man who was camping when he spotted a loon tangled in fishing line and wouldn't relax until it was free as a bird. As It Happens. The Monday Edition. Radio that's fit to be untied.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: WHA Meeting

WHA Meeting

Guest: Mukesh Kapila

CH: The points of conflict seemed pretty clear before the World Health Assembly meeting began. The assembly is the governing body of the World Health Organization. This morning, the ministers of its 194 member states teleconference in for their first meeting since the start of the pandemic. Going into the meeting, the Trump administration was already blaming China for failing to contain the coronavirus, and China was already dismissing calls for an independent investigation. But when he addressed the meeting this morning, Chinese President Xi Jinping indicated that he was open to some sort of review in due time. Dr. Mukesh Kapila is a former W.H.O. director and a professor of global health at the University of Manchester. We reached him in Geneva.

CO: Dr. Kapila, are we any closer tonight to actually having an independent investigation into how this pandemic began?

MUKESH KAPILA: I don't think so. I think member states have got used to the idea of having an investigation, but the terms of that investigation and whether or not it will go back to the very beginnings of the virus and how it initially spread and who said what to whom is yet to be decided.

CO: And why is that the case? What is causing this reluctance to look at something that is so vital to being able to prevent this from happening again?

MK: Well, obviously, China is being very sensitive to the criticism it has received from the United States and also some other countries on its own role in relation to the origins of the virus and allegations that it was not entirely transparent in those early stages. So that, I think, has made China very reluctant to have a genuinely independent inquiry. And obviously, it's also trying to delay it, because the longer it delays it the more it can sanitize the conditions on the ground. And that therefore, when some inquiry takes place, it will be able to control the narrative much better. And controlling the narrative is an extremely important aspect of the way China sees its relations to the whole world.

CO: Also, President Xi Jinping today, he's pledging two billion dollars in financial support over the next two years to help deal with COVID-19. He mentioned how much China is helping Africa. Is that factoring into it?

MK: Well, I think China is known for its coercive and bullying style. In that respect, by the way, it is no worse than the United States, which also uses similar tactics. You know, if I was to count all the billions that have been provided by nations, including seven-and-a-half billion the other day from that event organized by the EU, then I don't know, by now there must be amount to several trillions. So I view with huge skepticism such numbers.

CO: President Xi also said that all along we have acted with openness and transparency and responsibility. But we know initially at the outbreak the information was suppressed. The doctors and health officials in China who were trying to get the word out were squashed. Some of them arrested. One of them died. And so what are the questions? What do you want to know if there could be an independent investigation?

MK: Well, I think some of those questions you've raised already. One would like to know exactly when the virus was first detected in China, where it was and what actions were taken by the authorities, local or national. And, you know, this is not intended to be an attack on China. I think no country has covered itself with glory as far as the response to the coronavirus is concerned. But we certainly would like to know the sequence of events that happened, how transmission started and what was said to the World Health Organization and how the W.H.O. responded. I don't personally believe in more bizarre conspiracy theories, but the fact is that if we do not have this independent inquiry, then two things will happen. Firstly, and most importantly, we will continue to be distracted by this story rather than getting on with the business of bringing the virus under control because suspicion will reign as it is reigning now. The second thing that is going to happen if we don't have the inquiry very soon is that we will not learn the lessons that are necessary fast enough in order to be able to put them into practice even as the response is mounted. If we delay the inquiry to an appropriate time, a phrase that has been used many times today, then what we are effectively saying is, well, you know, we'll come around to this at some future date presumably by the time either we all perished or we have forgotten about it. And that's the way of burying this investigation if it ever happens.

CO: And it's finally in this investigation, should the W.H.O. itself be investigated? Because we know that it was warning about a global health emergency. But at the same time said there was no need to limit travel and trade, something that China had specifically asked for. So what was the relationship between the W.H.O. and China?

MK: Well, the correct answer I should give is that, I don't know. And I think that the charge has been made of relations between the two not being transparent, and therefore, that charge has to be answered. It's wrong to condemn W.H.O. or even China without a hearing. It can only be given by an independent inquiry. And the emphasis is on the word independent. You can't have judge, jury, executioner, counsel for the prosecution, counsel for the defense, all in the same process. Now, the current mechanism that is possibly being proposed and might be adopted, is that somehow the global health community, including W.H.O., appoints its own process of investigation into itself. Now, if that were to happen, then I think it would be a whitewash. So the fact is, certainly W.H.O. needs to be held accountable for what it did, what it didn't do. By the way, I think it's in its own interest to do so, because what you'll find is that W.H.O acted very well. But if it doesn't enable this inquiry to take place, which I think it wants to, then I'm afraid it's not in his institutional interest. It will never be trusted again.

CO: Dr. Kapila, we will leave it there. And I appreciate speaking with you tonight. Thank you.

MK: Thanks.

CH: Dr. Mukesh Kapila is a professor of global health at the University of Manchester and a former director of the W.H.O. Department of Health Action in Crises. We reached him in Geneva.

[Music]

Snowbird Crash

Guest: Dana Hings, Jenna, & Tim Durkin

CH: All she wanted was for people to look up and feel their spirits rise when they did. Air Force Captain Jennifer Casey joined the snowbird stunt flying team in 2018. Yesterday, as part of the team's tour across the country to entertain Canadians during the pandemic Captain Casey's plane took off from the Kamloops airport. It very quickly veered upward, then crashed to the ground. The public relations officer died. The jet's pilot, Captain Richard MacDougall, was injured. Dana Hings is a retired nurse. She and her daughter were close by when the crash occurred. We reached her in Kamloops, B.C..

CO: Dana at what point did you realize that your help might be needed?

DANA HINGS: I was with my daughter, Jenna -- she's here now. We were in our backyard here in Kamloops, not far from the airport, and we saw a Snowbird and thought that was pretty cool. And then we heard a very loud boom. So my daughter said, let's go check it out. So we quickly got in her truck and we followed the plume of smoke.

CO: And what did you see at that point? When you arrived at the scene what did you see?

DH: Somebody came running out of a side yard and said, we need medical help in the backyard. And so we just made a right turn and headed on in. And that's when we came across the scene of Captain Casey.

CO: And you are a nurse. You have training. So you knew that you could be...

DH: I'm retired. Yeah.

CO: And so that's when you saw Captain Jennifer Casey. What state was she in at that point?

DH: Oh boy. She was being administered CPR when we arrived by there were a few other people in the yard. And she clearly had, you know, catastrophic injuries.

CO: But someone was giving CPR. And is that what you thought you could help with?

DH: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And there was a paramedic that was there that had come from the airport, witnessed the accident and raced over from the airport. So he was instrumental in just running a really calm scene and dealing with the pilot that was up on the roof of the house we were at. We didn't know he was up there because from our angle, when we were walking down the street, we couldn't see him. And there was a big chimney. He was behind. So we got to the backyard and we were told that he was up on the roof.

CO: And this is Captain Richard MacDougall, who has survived but has great injuries.

DH: I'm still stunned that that man is alive.

CO: You're in the backyard of a house where this woman had landed. And were there many people around? Was there debris? What else was going on?

JENNA: There was debris. This is Jenna, the daughter, by the way.

CO: Hi, Jenna.

JENNA: Her seat was right beside her with her parachute, which obviously had not caught wind. She had taken a tree branch down that would have needed a saw to take down. And just her boots and gloves and clothes were pretty much everywhere.

CO: The poor woman. And so it appears from what you saw, that the parachute did not open.

JENNA: No. It opened but it didn't look like it had time to catch air.

CO: And was anyone able to get up on the roof and help the other man?

DH: Yeah. There were two people out there when we arrived. He was conscious and talking and asking about Captain Casey, we understand -- we were told this when we were in the backyard by a paramedic and they said that, you know, he was okay.

CO: At what point did the ambulance arrive or the reinforcements to help with the scene?

JENNA: Yeah. It was about five minutes of them administering CPR that we heard the ambulance sirens and I had to run into the front yard and point the ambulance and paramedics in the direction of where Captain Casey was. The response time was just absolutely amazing. They did an amazing job.

CO: Jennifer Casey was still alive when the paramedics arrived?

JENNA: No. It looked like she died on impact.

CO: Dana and Jenna, how are you coping with this? How are you processing what you saw and what you took part in?

JENNA: I'm doing okay. It's so really raw in my mind. It's never something I imagined that would ever happen. You never expect it to be in your own backyard, in your own neighbourhood. It's like a fever dream still.

DH: Yeah, I think we're a bit better after getting some sleep. We were all pretty shocked, I think yesterday and last night. And, you know, I take comfort in knowing that I think Captain Casey died doing what she loved and that fact, she didn't suffer.

CO: The point of these Snowbirds, this was in a cross-country tour called Operation Inspiration, and it was to help to help boost people's spirits during this COVID pandemic. That's why Captain Casey and Captain MacDougall were up there -- to try and help us. So was that something people in the Kamloops area appreciated -- to have them there?

DH: Oh, absolutely. They had arrived the day before. And, you know, that was pretty exciting. Everybody stopped what they were doing. And it was a big deal here that they were here. It definitely was inspirational here. And I just think that the saddest thing is they were trying to do such good, and yet a tragedy like this has happened at a time like this it's just...so tragic.

CO: And Jenna, what are you reflecting on?

JENNA: Pretty much the same thing, you know, it's really moving to see the photos of her on social media and on the TV compared to how we saw her yesterday. She was such a beautiful person. She looked like she was just amazing. And it's so sad that she passed away so young. But at least she did it doing something she'd love.

CO: So that image of that spirited young woman, in the photo, that's the one you're going to hold and not the one you saw in that backyard.

JENNA: Of course. You can't hold that image of her in the backyard at all. You got to look at who she was, not what happened.

CO: Jenna and Dana, I really appreciate speaking with both of you. Thank you.

BOTH: You're very welcome.

CH: That was Dana Hings and her daughter Jenna, who were at the scene of the Snowbirds crash yesterday. They were in Kamloops, B.C.. Captain Jennifer Casey joined the Canadian Armed Forces in 2014 and joined the Snowbirds two years ago. Here she is speaking to freelance videographer Sean Costello about her job.

JENNIFER CASEY: So I came into the Canadian Armed Forces four years ago in what we call the direct entry program. And so what that means is you already have a degree. Most people also have worked a little bit in the civilian world. So I spent several years as a journalist and then, you know, the job security in that industry, you know, at this point, it wasn't the best. So I kind of started looking around what can I take my skills to but still have an exciting career. And that's when I decided to step into the Canadian Armed Forces. [Plane and laughter sound]

CH: Captain Jennifer Casey laughing as that interview was interrupted by jets flying overhead. Tim Durkin was a friend of Captain Casey. They worked together at Quinte Broadcasting in Bellville, Ontario. We reached him in Quinte West, Ontario.

CO: Tim, first of all, I'm sorry about your friend.

TIM DURKIN: Well, it's wonderful to hear that clip, Carol, because you can just tell when you hear her voice, you know, it was something that she loved to do. She came to Bellville with her partner, who was in the military at the time, and she had left radio in Halifax and said, if you guys need another person, I'm happy to help out. And she was not only a great reporter and journalist and professional, she was just a great person. And I know you've talked to hundreds of east coasters, there's just something different about somebody from the east. And I think that Jennifer was the epitome of an east coaster and a Canadian. She was a Montreal Canadiens fan. She was a Snowbird. And she had her first wedding song and The Tragically Hip was her favourite band. And she got to go to the last Tragically Hip show as well. So, I mean, you can't get more Canadian than Captain Casey.

CO: When you hear that clip, when you hear her voice, she's being pretty straight giving the goods for what the Snowbirds are about and what it is to be in the Canadian Armed Forces -- when you hear her laugh, when you hear the joy she has when she hears those Snowbirds go overhead, what does that tell you about her?

TD: She was always somebody that was up for an adventure. And I mean, she was somebody who would do marathons or Tough Mudder competitions. She loved to play sports. She was into the social clubs. And that was something that she was never afraid of doing -- a new adventure. And when you have a background and a career, as she did in journalism and to say, you know what? I'm going to try something different. And she jumped right over and got into the military. And I remember she was doing her basic training and it was the same time that my wife and I were getting married. And she left the Montreal area near where her training was in Quebec, and she drove all the way back to Bellville for one afternoon and evening of our wedding and had to turn around and drive all the way back to her basic training. And that was just the type of person she was. She would do anything for anyone.

CO: We are hearing much about what an exceptional woman, what an exceptional person she was Captain Jennifer Casey we're hearing. But to you she was, Jen. Can you tell us about your friend?

TD: You know, it was interesting that the things that we got an opportunity to do just the first couple of times meeting her -- the first time I said, so you're from the East Coast, what are you into? She said, well, I worked covering the Halifax Mooseheads when they had the Memorial Cup runs. And I was the television play-by-play person for the Ontario Hockey League team here, which is the same level of hockey. And so as soon as you say those magic words of hockey, you hit it off right away. She moved a couple of times while she was living in Quinte West. And of course, when she got into the military, she was in public affairs. And then with the CFA 18 demo team and of course, with those jobs, there's a large expectation. And she had the university background and the communications background, but she ended up having to learn French. She knew very basic French, but she learned it outright and then to climb to be where she was with the Snowbirds. And we have to remember, this wasn't something she started when she was 18. She was in her late 20s when she looked at doing this endeavor and got into it in just 2014. And from there, it seemed like the sky was the limit for her.

CO: Wow. And so she became a Snowbirder very soon after she joined the Canadian Armed Forces.

TD: Yes. After doing the public affairs at the Canadian Forces Base Trenton, and in late 2018 was when she got into be part of the Snowbirds. And she was just actually in our area just last week, on Friday the 8th. And I was texting with her and I said, we'd love to have you do a six foot beer in the driveway with you while you're staying overnight. She says, well, we can't because we're sequestered while we do this coast to coast Operation Inspiration. And she said happy birthday to my wife and asked to give a hug to our little girl. And that was the last time I got a chance to talk to her.

CO: What are you going to miss most about her?

TD: We are both Montreal Canadien fans. So I think it would be talking hockey and having a few craft beers out on the porch at her place or at our place. She dog sat for us and we dog sat for her. And she was an animal lover, but she was a friend anyone.

CO: Tim, I appreciate you telling us about Jennifer Casey.

TD: Thanks so much.

CH: Tim Durkin was a friend of Captain Jennifer Casey, who died yesterday in a crash of a snowbirds flight in Kamloops, B.C.. Mr. Durkin was in Quinte West, Ontario.

[Music]

From our Archives: Loon Rescue

CH: A little while ago, we got an email from Betty Maine of London, Ontario. She wrote, "I remember with much sweetness and humor, an interview with an Alberta camper intervening with a tangled loon back in August 2017. Please repeat this interview of your devoted and faithful listeners, especially me." Well devoted and faithful listeners, especially Betty Maine, from August of 2017 here's tonight's interview from the archives. Guest host Mike Finnerty speaking with Don Gibson of Sundari, Alberta.

MF: Don Gibson, hello.

DON GIBSON: Hello. How are you doing Mike?

MF: I'm well, thanks very much. Tell us this story. What did you think at first when you saw a loon headed toward you?

DG: My wife thought it was a duck. I actually recognized it as being a loon, but I really honestly thought it was someone playing a joke and I had a remote control toy, and they're standing in the woods laughing at us or something— because you never ever see these things come directly toward you. And this guy was staring straight at us coming right towards us. No question he knew what he was doing.

MF: What did you do?

DG: Well we stood there on the dock, my wife snapped a few pictures standing on the dock— we didn't know how far this whole story was going to go, and how it was going to play out. Now it's a little ways down from the dock to the water, so he didn't bother to stop or come near us at that point, any nearer than he was, but I was able to get close enough to recognize that he was pretty tangled up in fishing line. And this was a plea for help in my eyes. There was no question right away. He brought himself that close for us to identify that there's a situation here for him— and then he kept swimming past. And when he was swimming he was struggling because the lne was around his beak and all the way down his back to his foot. He went right over to a shallower area that we were fishing from earlier on that weekend. And I said to my boy, I said, “We've got to go over there. Let's just see what's going to happen here.” And we walked over— I got closer and closer, very gently, I didn't want to spook him off, otherwise there’d be no chance of ever helping him. And he basically let me pat his head, at first. I'm like, “This is crazy.” I mean he's hurting bad enough that he's just not afraid of me— he wants to be helped. So I’m patting his head, and then by that time I've developed almost a little relationship with him, at the time that he trusted me I guess, and my wife she got a camp attendant, Jeff his name was, and he came over with a pair of scissors. So both of us got to work on this loon Jeff stayed on the shore— I was standing in the water behind the loon just to keep clear of this guy's beak because they’re pretty darn sharp.

MF: Yeah I was going to ask you, Don. What was it like to be, not just that close to the loon, but actually to be holding a loon and touching its head?

DG: Yeah, it was almost unreal, and almost scary to the point where I knew if he decided to jerk around he could puncture a hole in my hand or arm really easy with his beak, they’re made for almost spearing fish I think. You know, you just kind of figured, “OK well this is something I got to do. If he does poke at you I'll deal with it then,” but there was no sign of that whatsoever. He let out a few cute little noises that you kind of knew then that hey he's here for keeps until I'm done.

MF: Would you say he was in distress?

DG: I don't think there was any pain involved because there was no blood, there was no cutting from the line or hook anywhere. I think he was just plumb pooped. I think he hadn't eaten in a while. I think at night he would be on alert because there’s no way he could fly or swim away from predators, so I don't think he got any sleep.

MF: One of the hooks was in embedded in his neck?

DG: Yeah, it was in the back of his neck, and I didn't find that until— the first thing I did was cut off the line around his beak, because I thought you know, the rest, if he decided to kick and stir and I lose him, at least it's off his beak and he can eat. You know, even if it was just swimming on the surface and poking down for you know, minnows or whatever. So I thought I'll get that off first and then I followed the line around, and sure enough there was a hook embedded in the back of his neck. It wasn't real deep— they got thick feathers on them— that came out fairly easy, even though there's a barb on the hook. And then it ran under his wings, and feathers on his back, down to his leg where it must have been tied around three or four loops around his leg. That was really causing him problems because when he was swimming originally, every time he would slap his leg, it would pull his head sideways because it was all linked together— it was that tight. It's like pulling a string on a puppet type thing.

MF: You said he made a noise when he was I guess, in your hands?

DG: Yeah, well you know the loon call they make— it was like a very dull, very quiet almost like a coo. It was it was kind of weird, and I don't know maybe because I was tugging on the string too hard. It didn't sound painful, it wasn't a screech, it was just this little, just this little coo that he made. And it was the cutest little thing. He did it twice, like a coo off of it like, “ooo” that kind of thing, and very quiet, like if you were to stand fifteen to twenty feet back, you probably wouldn't have heard it, but it was enough that Jeff and I could hear it.

MF: That moment when you released him back into the water. Well what was going through your mind, in terms of your hopes and I guess, concerns?

DG: My main thing was I hope we got to him in time— basically he found us. He's the hero in all this really because he had the smarts to come and find human beings that he thought was probably his last resort. So we released him and like, by now the crowd had gathered around, you know. You know, they're all like, “We can't believe it,” and all they're saying stuff. And then when we released him Jeff. the guy that was helping me the most, he basically said, “Come on give us a sign that you're going to be OK,” type of thing, and almost like no lie whatsoever, this bird turned around at about fifteen feet from the shore and looked right back at us. Got up, reared up, like loons do and flapped his wings, and everybody just started clapping, and they just — was just unbelievable— almost choreographed.

MF: It sounds like a magic moment.

DG: It was, it was, it was incredible. With all the crap going on in the world today it just made everything just disappear —it was amazing. You know, I'm not a religious man by any means or anything like that, but I'll tell you there's something going on in those birds. And that day it is beyond belief. It really is I don't think I would ever expect to hear a story like this if I didn't see it myself.

MF: And what did your son think about all this?

DG: He was blown away and so touched. And afterwards it was all about that night at the campfire. “How do you think he’s doing? Do you want to go down to the lake and see if he’s there?” And he just he wouldn’t stop. It was quite an experience for him for sure. I don't think you'll ever, ever forget it.

MF: Don thanks very much for telling us this story. Really appreciate it.

DG: That's not a problem, you're welcome.

MF: Bye bye

DG: Bye bye.

CH: From our archives, guest host Mike Finnerty speaking with Don Gibson loon disentangler on August 18th, 2017.

[Music]

Part 2: Hong Kong Anthem

Hong Kong Anthem

Guest: Ted Hui

CH: Hong Kong's Legislative Council is supposed to be the venue where government and administrative duties are carried out. But today, several pro-democracy lawmakers were carried out by security forces instead after scuffles broke out in the chamber. There was an argument over the leadership of a committee that determines key legislation, including a new law that would make it illegal to disrespect the national anthem. That law is drawing comparisons to last year's controversial extradition law. Ted Hui is a pro-democracy lawmaker who went to the hospital after today's practice. We reached him in Hong Kong.

CO: Mr. Hui, how are you feeling right now? Have you recovered from your injury?

TED HUI: It's a slight injury. But it's serious what's happened today because we were physically removed from meeting rooms. And I think it's the first time that force is used so excessively by not even police but also security guards of the legislature.

CO: Okay. Before we get to how things eventually led to your injury and to the eviction, what happened first? What got this started?

TH: Today in our legislature, it's supposed to be a meeting to elect a chairperson of the House committee, which is an important committee because it controls the agenda setting of the plenary session of the legislature. It also controls the priority of legislation. So under the rules one member called Dennis Kwok, he is supposed to be the chairperson to hold that meeting, to elect a chairperson. And then he is from the Democratic camp. And that's why I think pro-Beijing camp is worrying that there will be delays. And that's why they ordered another member of parliament, that's from the pro-Beijing camp.

CO: Sorry. We will sort this out. So Dennis Kwok is one of your colleagues. He's a pro-democracy member of the legislature. And he was to choose a new head for this very important committee. But a pro-Beijing, pro-China, faction took over that process. Is that right?

TH: Yes. And he took over the process forcibly and with security guards. They are supposed to be impartial but of course, they are so biased. So the meeting started, the person that's chosen from the pro-Beijing camp called Chan Kin-por, he took the chairman panel and then all the security guards guarded him, protected him. And that's why we were protesting and we were trying to ask them to leave because it's an illegal process.

CO: Have you ever seen a situation -- I know things have been very tense inside the Hong Kong legislature since the protests began, but have you ever seen a fight break out like this?

TH: It's not the first time, but it's only with the fact that the security guards will be so violent towards us, the democrats, and it's only the first time today.

CO: But there is a photo of you trying to jump onto the chairman's bench. So is that possibly why the security guard stepped in?

TH: We were protesting. And we want a review -- and it's the fact that the whole process is illegal, so they just talk to chairman panel and took the meeting by force. So we had no other choice but to protest. And I would say that it was peaceful at the beginning. We had no other choices but to protest.

CO: But there is a moment -- there is a very large black cloth carried by pro-democracy lawmakers. And you attempted to cover something. And that's, I guess, when things got quite heated.

TH: Not at all. And I think there's a confusion. The black cloth itself is symbolic. We are protesting. Our legislature works under the black cloth. So it is part of the protest. It's a prop.

CO: The pro-Beijing lawmakers say that that black cloth, which is quite large, you were attempting to cover up the violence. That's not the case?

TH: No, not the case at all. I think that's quite laughable because there are tons of cameras there and there's no way that we can cover anything.

CO: Can you tell us a bit about this particular committee and some of the legislation that it's looking at that is of great concern to the pro-democracy movement?

TH: Yes, the upcoming one will be the national anthem law. And the law says that when the national anthem is played, we have to respect it. But when there are people booing it or not standing up, then we can be sent to jail for three years.

CO: Is it vague that way that it's up to the authorities to decide if you're disrespecting the anthem?

TH: Yes, it's for the police, for the authority to decide, and they'll prosecute you and send you to court and you have to explain to the court -- if they are not satisfied, then you're going to jail.

CO: And you think that this law might be used to process arbitrary arrest, be able to arrest people on other pretenses?

TH: Yes. Just like the law proposed last year, the extradition bill. I think every bill and every legislation in Hong Kong that limits the civil liberty of our citizens will be used will be very much manipulated by our governments to send dissidents to jail. So we don't have democracy to monitor the whole process so we cannot accept that from passing.

CO: There's lot of evidence that the the protests, the pro-democracy protests are starting up again now that Hong Kong seems to be clear of COVID-19. There's a great deal of of recognition from the international community, even from Canada, into your movement. Do you expect that you're not going to get as much support for your movement as it starts again?

TH: I think whether we get support from the international community, we have to fight back anyway against this tyranny. I would use this word because I ironically when you mentioned that Hong Kong is quite clear from this virus, but we still have the anti gathering law, you know, and the government has been using this law over the past months to crackdown on protest and to prosecute people who took it to the streets against the government. So it's one proof that laws like this can be very much manipulated.

CO: Mr. Hui we are going to leave it there. And we'll, of course, be following this story as we have been. Thank you so much for speaking with us tonight.

TH: Thank you.

CH: Ted Hui is a pro-democracy lawmaker. We reached him in Hong Kong.

[Music]

Arkansas Concert

Guest: Lauren Brown

CH: It's billed as the first socially distanced concert in the United States since the pandemic started. Tonight, country rock musician Travis McCready will take to the stage in Fort Smith, Arkansas. The concert was originally scheduled for Friday night, but it was postponed after Arkansas's Department of Health issued a cease and desist to the promoters and authorities seized their liquor license. Now, after a long back and forth, the governor has approved tonight's concerts to go ahead. Lauren Brown is scheduled to perform tonight as the opening act. We reached her in Fort Smith, Arkansas.

CO: Lauren, how are you feeling about this concert tonight in Fort Smith?

LAUREN BROWN: I'm doing great. I'm excited. Got the bands here, getting set up. Got some camera crews getting set up. So I'm excited.

CO: And this is basically the first concert to take place since the lockdowns across the United States were enacted, right?

LB: As far as we know, yeah.

CO: Now, it's been a long time in the making, the planning for this. Did you have any idea that you'd be playing in the middle of a pandemic when this happened?

LB: No, I didn't. We planned this in good faith that this would all be over by now honestly.

CO: Just tell us about that because the Department of Health in Arkansas wanted to shut down the concert last week, and did actually postpone it. What did you make of that when you got that news?

LB: You know, it's obviously disappointing because there wasn't a lot of grounds for which they were postponing the show, since churches here are already open without capacity limits. But I'm just glad that the show can go on and that we can still be here and spend some time with people and play some live music, that's all that matters.

CO: And why do you think that it's safe?

LB: I've been walking around the theater and I've been here and the health department, I believe, has been here as well -- I could be incorrect on that. But they measured everything off. Everything is within socially distance guidelines. Everyone is required to wear a mask, there are sanitation stations, we have foggers with sanitation material inside of them. It's very very safe.

CO: People wearing masks, it will make it look very different. But how different is this concert going to be tonight to what you're used to? Just describe what you expect to see in terms of crowd size and where they are and how close they are to the stage. Give us a sense of that.

LB: Well, it's obviously going to be scaled down for safety purposes in order for people to be six feet apart. I believe the capacity is at about one third or maybe even less than that. There are one-way aisles and the seats are spaced out six feet apart between groups, between fan pods. But I'm just glad to get back to live music in any way, shape or form. It's obviously going to be an adjustment, but I don't think it'll be like this forever either.

CO: It's a room that sits 1,110 and the capacity you're allowed is 230. Is that right?

LB: Yes.

CO: And what are fan pods?

LB: Those fan pod is something that they've started coining the term for here. It's a block of seats. So say there's four seats next to each other, and if you buy one, you have to buy all of the seats. And that's for you and your family or people that you've been quarantining with, people that you're comfortable with bringing and people that you're welcome being in your six foot circle. So it's a fan pod of people that you've already been around. That way we don't just have single seats here and there.

CO: There are those who believe that this whole thing, that the precautions and everything are just a bunch of malarkey and that there's nothing to fear and people are not often doing what they're asked to do because they don't really think that they should or it impinges on their freedom. Do you share those views?

LB: I try to stay out of the whole politics side of it. But my view really is kind of the philosophy of if it makes you happy. So, I mean, if you're not endangering others and you want to do whatever you feel is good for you -- if you want to stay home, stay home. If you want to be out, stay six feet away from people, do that. As long as you're not infringing on the rights of others, I think you can do whatever you want because it's a free country.

CO: When the concert was first shut down, the promoter for Temple LIve said We the people, three amazing words and they have been trampled on. Do you agree with that?

LB: I do. I agree because of the actions taken by the state. The removal of the licenses without true grounds, of the venue, was absolutely uncalled for. Just something that I never thought that I would have to see.

CO: But then they did allow the concert to go ahead today.

LB: Yes, they brought the licenses back after we publicly announced that the show had been moved to Monday.

CO: But there are concerns. People do feel that even though people are free to go to a concert and free to do what they're doing, that they can bring whatever they get from public situations back into people's homes, into their workplaces. So it's not entirely is it about your freedom versus mine?

LB: No, I think there's a lot of discretion involved. I think it's very subjective, because the thing is it's not just a general opening that I think we're defending against. I think it's the equality between us and venues like churches that have been allowed to open with suggestions -- not even, you know, certain regulations in place. I think that it's discriminatory towards the type of venue because, you know, the virus doesn't know whether it's in a church or a high school or a music venue, it's going to spread the same way. So it's been considered safe for churches to open and for Wal-Mart to open and for, you know, retail stores to open, I think that it's safe for us to have a concert.

CO: What kind of toll is this pandemic taking on musicians and your livelihood?

LB: It's taken a giant toll. With the advances in technology these days, not a lot of money is to be made on recorded music anymore because it's all streaming services. Which is fine. I'm so glad that music is highly accessible to the public now. However, that means that for musicians live show, there really are our best way to bring in revenue. And that's absolutely halted by this quarantine, which for good reason for a while there. But I think it's time to get back to regular business. And I also keep mentioning to everyone that I think it's really important that we think about not just artists, but all of the jobs created by the live music industry. I mean, you have your lighting crews and your stage crews and your security guards, your ticket scanners, your ushers. I mean, there are so many people that have been robbed of their livelihood from this, not just the musicians and live music.

CO: So how important is it for you in your career to be able to open tonight in this show?

LB: Very important. It's extremely important, hopefully, to get the wheels back rolling on the music industry, even if it looks a little bit different for a while.

CO: What song are you going to open with tonight?

LB: I'm going to open with an original of mine, that's a surprise. That'll be streamed eventually.

CO: [Chuckles] Oh you're not going to tell us?

LB: Nope. We'll just have to listen.

CO: [Chuckles] Okay. Good luck with your show tonight Lauren. Thank you.

LB: Thank you very much Carol.

CH: Lauren Brown is scheduled to perform tonight at a socially distanced concert in Fort Smith, Arkansas. That's where we reached her. The concert is billed as the first in the United States since the pandemic hit.

[Music]

Brian Brett

CH: No one wants to end up in a COVID-19 ward. People are so afraid of them that hospitals across the country say other types of admissions are down. So people are risking their health to avoid as they see it, risking their health. Canadian writer Brian Brett recently wound up in one of those scary wards. And as he recalls in an essay published today at CBC Books, his stay was all kinds of surprising. Here's Brian Brett reading My Weekend at the COVID Ward.

BRIAN BRETT: During a heat wave in 2015, I developed a blister. Within four months my foot was rotting from a 'hospital bacteria' (MRSA). I endured a hurricane of pain: six heart failures, hepatitis c, pericarditis, osteomyelitis, years of drip antibiotics, pneumonia. Followed by two different "fatal" liver cancers and their painful cures.

I was a mess, yet a hopeful mess, still reaching for my 70th birthday.

Then along came COVID-19. I'm so high up the endangered ladder it gives me altitude sickness. Bad heart. Bad lungs. Almost non-existent liver.

Naturally I came to fear dying in a hospital from COVID-19.

On March 16, there was an ache in my sinus. I'd taken the flu vaccine so I suspected at worst this was a head cold.

The next day arrived with a star-spackling headache and a nasal tickle all the way to my throat, while my skull rang. By dawn I was hacking out my lungs.

Too paranoid to visit my doctor, even gloved and masked, I phoned.

After we discussed my symptoms and her prescriptions she warned that if I grew worse I should go to the hospital. But since I didn't have a fever nobody would test me for COVID-19.

Within two weeks my lungs were gargling. My stomach was so brutalized I could only eat soft boiled eggs, mandarin oranges and dehydrated chicken soup. By then I was so ill I dreamed I was having a fever.

But I was over the hump... maybe... the gurgling lungs were fading away, though I was buried by waves of nausea. Then suddenly yes, I was having a fever!

Oh no.

When I entered emergency, they slapped me into a bed before even taking my mask and gloves off, and wheeled me into a private room.

Undressing me is when we noticed my leg and we gazed at each other, as if wondering when did that happen? It had been slightly red upon first illness, not this huge inflamed trunk. Was I hallucinating too?

I was now convinced I had COVID-19.

Someone stuck a golf club up my nose and massaged my brain pan with a swab — the coveted COVID test. Yuck!

Meanwhile I was mainlining electrolytes and antibiotics, and ingesting fistfuls of pills. I was so woozy I suspect my answers caused more confusion.

This is south Vancouver, a neighbourhood so multicultural that it's undefinable. The ward sounded like the international lobby of Vancouver Airport, only here they were having a lot of fun even if at an efficient pace. I was impressed.

The next day I learned I'd passed the COVID test.

It was my good luck that another bacteria was killing me, the nurse said as she stuck a second, confirming golf club up my nose and swished it around, making my toes almost curl up to my ears. "Uh ... uh ... uh ..." was my reply.

"What did you say?" she asked with a benevolent smile.

A few hours later, thirsty, I stepped into the bustling ward. The laughter and banter stopped and everyone glared. Hands pointed at me as if I were a wicked kid: "Go back inside your room!"

And that's when I learned I was in the COVID ward. "Great," I thought, "why not visit the devil I feared most." Then the burble of the busy nurses grew again, and I smiled, feeling free at last of my fate and fear. If I could go through the last hellish five years and walk into the ward I most dreaded, I should be ready for anything.

My real enemy was the infection surfacing mysteriously in my leg and stomach. The gurgling lungs faded away.

In another two days I arrived home with a bottle of Suntory scotch and an unhappy lobster. My beautiful daughter-in-law had let herself in and cleaned up the kitty litter, and comforted my lonely cat, before flushing the entire messy house.

Ill and useless, I'd abandoned a house of dirty dishes and laundry.

When it was practically shining, she left.

I unwrapped the scotch at the kitchen counter, careful not to drink anything. This was for my 70th birthday in less than seven hours.

After years of death threats, whether by health or accident, there was only a few hours ahead. When I was 20 and stricken with a genetic syndrome, the doctor told me "your kind have no history of living beyond 40." He's long dead now.

So I got my COVID test in the end.

Sometimes not catching a virus can be just as scary as catching it. All of us go through a lot. Many die. Many live. My time will come yet. Meanwhile, I received a few days of joy from the laughing, living, complex COVID-19 ward.

CH: Canadian writer Brian Brett reading My Weekend at the COVID Ward. The essay was published today as part of a CBC Books original writing series called Transmission: Reflecting on Life during the COVID 19 Crises. And you can read more contributions from Canadian writers: cbcbooks.ca.

[Music]

Bill Norry

CH: It stands to reason that the kind of person who would set out on a 28 foot sailboat to sail around the world solo is also the kind of person who's got a whole lot of pluck. I'm not sure if it also stands to reason that that person would name their boat "Pixie" and somehow remain shockingly chipper after months without seeing another human being. But reasonable or not, all those things are true of Calgary man Bill Norry. Mr. Norry has spent the better part of the last year at sea with Pixie, of course, weathering all sorts of storms, both metaphorical and terrifyingly literal. He recently landed in New Zealand for a brief stint on dry land, and though he had gotten word that there was a pandemic, he had no idea what to expect. Here's Bill Norry talking to CBC Calgary's The Homestretch shortly after making landfall.

BILL NORRY: I was the farthest guy away on the planet. You couldn't get any further away from the rest of humanity. When it started and got going, I think I was in the middle of the Indian Ocean.

DOUG DIRKS: And I saw you described yourself as the safest man on the planet during the last three months while you're out at sea. So what were those three months like?

BILL NORRY: It was wild. It' was cold and wild. I've got the hang of it now. And the Southern Ocean, I think I've probably said before, is the world's largest wild place and to be large you need to experience that fourth dimension of time to, I believe, to get the hang of how big it really is. And it's big. I'm glad the world is no bigger. [Laughs]

DOUG DIRKS: Bill I understand you faced multiple dragon attacks over the last three months. What does that mean?

BILL NORRY: Google Earth is digital. We know everything. But in the very earliest maps down in the Southern Ocean on the edges of the earliest charts and maps, they say 'Here be dragons.' And so I wonder where they got that idea of dragons. So it's sort of my anthropomorphic kind of bad, ugly danger. And so when it storms it's a dragon in the biggest, you know, 10 metre seas are like dragons -- hanging around. And my charts are like tissue paper. They're all soggy. I could barely touch them and they fall apart. [CHuckles] So you've got to be careful. Just keep on going with the unstoppable sail boat. Just soaking wet. So there's been a bit of a misery there. [Laughs]

DOUG DIRKS: And Bill you've maintained this great attitude throughout it. So what kind of advice do you have for people who are having trouble with physical distancing and self-isolation on land, given that you've been doing it at sea for pretty much nine months now?

BILL NORRY: [Chuckles] Well, just reflect how lucky you are. And you have these people to distance yourself and tell them you love them and keep your distance and it'll past. You know, this too will pass. And just appreciate all that closeness you've had before this.

CH: That was solo sailor Bill Norry speaking with the CBC's Doug Dirks on Friday. Mr. Norry plans to set sail again in a matter of days, and he hopes to reach Canada by September.

[Music]

CO: You honestly can't invent this story and Benjamin you must have thought that too when you encountered it as the filmmaker.

BR: Absolutely. But I also have to add that when I began filming, I did not know anything where the story might end up. So I thought that I was just going to do a 10 minute short documentary. I was actually researching art robberies. In Norway we have a great tradition for art robberies. And I just read about this on the front newspapers in Norway and immediately to contact with Barbora. So when I began filming Barbora, the Painter and the Thief, they had met four times. So I got in quite early in the process and I did not know anything that would happen. [Chuckles] But I just kept on filming.

CO: We're going to reveal some details, but there are so many twists, plot twists in this documentary. We're not going to reveal. We're going to try and not spoil too much, but we'll go back to the beginning Barbora, and if you can just take us back to the moment when you discovered at your exhibition that these paintings had been taken and what went through your mind at that time?

BK: So, of course, the first thought was just what...have I forgotten to speak English? I wasn't sure if I understood correctly what the gallerist was telling me on the phone. And then immediately I called my boyfriend, and he is a brilliant writer and one who really understands great stories. So he was right away telling, congratulations Barbora. And I was like uh. And then I started to think in my head, then I understood it's quite an insane compliment to my work [laughs] that somebody decided to break a law and break a law in order to purchase my art. So I actually felt kind of flattered. [Laughs]

CO: And there were some security cameras that captured part of this robbery well enough to identify the men. And they took great care with stealing these paintings, didn't they? I mean, the way they wrapped them and everything. And these were large canvases. They were in this exhibition. Describe the two paintings they took: "Swan Song" and "Chloe & Emma." Maybe give us a sense of how powerful these images are.

BK: I can't tell you how powerful the images are or the paintings. That's, of course, up to every viewer who feel it or not feel it. But exactly as you mentioned, it was really amazing how both of the thieves took care of removing the canvases from the blind frames because, you know, I'm preparing my own canvases. So I stretch it myself and I use the glue and so I fix it myself. And I fixed the canvases with nails. And both of these canvases were quite large size. And I know how difficult it is to not only stretch the canvas, but also to remove it. So it would take me half a day to do it. But these guys were obviously done in an amazingly short time. And what they left behind themselves were just these blind frames with all the nails and not a single thread of the canvas on it. So I was actually really amazed by the precision of their work and by the certain respect they paid to the work by removing it so carefully. So, yes, it actually gave me certain feeling that, okay, whoever did this and however it doesn't make sense to me why someone would steal my art, I gave them respect for how they did it. [Chuckles]

CO: You encountered one of the thieves. Their faces were shown on the video so they could be found. And Barbora, the first time that you saw the man who stole your paintings. Bertil, you saw him in court, can you describe your first impressions?

BK: Yeah, sure, I can describe it because that was a very strong moment. I think I'll never forget it. So when I was approaching the courtroom, I didn't know what to expect so I rather expected nothing. When I entered the room, I saw this man sitting there with his head...like his head in his hands. I could see so clearly that he just wished to be anywhere else but there. But at the same time, I really felt he was truly sorry for what he did. You know, my first idea was that I wanted to approach both of the thieves and ask them if they can pose for me where I wanted to recreate the scenery of the thievery and to make a painting of that. But when I entered the room, I totally lost all these ideas. I just looked at the man who only appears to me like a pure, simple human being going through his sorrow, his shame. I actually got quite fascinated right away by him not knowing why, I just did.

CO: Your question to him, first of all, you wanted to know why he did it, why he stole your painting. What did he say to you?

BK: Well, he answered, because they were beautiful. Which was very I mean...I was totally unarmed at that moment. It's like I dropped all my weapons that I possibly could have. But I did not have.That's how it began.

CO: And then you asked him a question that no one else would consider asking someone who stole their property. That's when you asked him if you could paint him.

BK: You know, when something like this happens to a living artist that somebody decides to break the law and get to your art, steal your art -- you as an artist feel I really had an obligation to do something with it. Not as Barbora as a person only. But Barbora the painter. I just felt I have certain obligation to do something about it. I didn't know what. But then as we started to talk together with Bertil, it just became more and more clear to me that just a simple portrait, that's exactly what I need to do. And I was so hoping that he will say yes.

CO: Benjamin, you said that you were first drawn to this story because you were looking at art theft and to explore that -- pretty straightforward kind of a documentary. When this turn happened, when you had an artist who wanted to engage with the thief at this to this degree to paint him, what did you think that you had in your hands as a story?

BR: I thought it was just incredible. It's was an incredible of Barbora to do that. And yeah, it's a great way of getting to know the thief. And it was also, of course, a way for Barbora to get to know the thief and answer the questions: Why did they steal it? Where are they? No one knew where the paintings were. So I thought that that worked very well as a premise for the film. But of course, the film is not a true crime documentary. It's a film about an unlikely friendship and the complexity of these two beautiful people.

CO: Well, at least one of the very very powerful scenes may be the most powerful is when Bertil comes to see the painting -- the first version of the painting Barbora that you have done of him. And I just want to play a bit of the sound of that moment and get you to tell us what's going on. Here's from the film. Here's you talking to him as he responds.

[sc]

BK: It's just started. Of course, a lot of work still...

BERTIL NORDLAND: Woah!

BK: I just started.

BERTIL NORDLAND: What the (censored)? You did this...no. [Voice softens] Wow.

[/sc]

CO: That moment -- the dropouts, of course, were swearwords we put out. [Laughter] And it's hard to describe what is happening. I don't think I've ever seen somebody go through that much on their face. And then he eventually begins to cry almost like a baby. Barbora, what did you think of that response?

BK: First of all, I knew that Bertil will see the painting without knowing that I have started it. And from my own experience, I know that it's quite moving for a person to see oneself painted. But I did know at that time Bertil was not really at the most stable part of his life, so I didn't know which shape or mindset he will come with. He was in of his lower days, I would guess. And he just needed some kind of words of support or just to hear something that's a bit positive. So I told him that I don't really have it in words, but if you look behind, you'll see that I have it in colours. And there he saw it. You know, it's the kind of reaction that, of course, it doesn't pay your rent, but it's one of the biggest compliments to my work ever.

CO: We should point out that when you're talking about he was in a low point, he was struggling with addiction and loneliness and a lot of a lot of problems, a lot of pain he was in. But at the same time, it was something that he saw of himself in that painting, it seems to me that he was reacting to. Benjamin, from your point of view, you kept your camera fixed on that, following his face, following his reaction. What do you think he saw in that painting that touched him to that degree?

BR: What the Bertil says about his reaction there is that it was maybe the first time he felt seen in his life, like for the first time really someone that saw him. And I think that scene really describes the film and what the themes we are exploring in the film, because the film is about what we humans do in order to be seen and appreciated and what it takes of us to help others and see others. So I think that scene is like the core of the whole film, it really shows his reaction and how he really feels seen and appreciated by another person, another human.

CO: You're listening to As It Happens. I'm speaking with Benjamin Ree, a filmmaker behind the documentary The Painter and the Thief. And we're speaking with Barbora Kysilkova, who is the painter herself. Barbora, I mean, elsewhere in the documentary, there is a scene where you where you question Bertil again about his motives, why he stole your painting. And I wanted to just play the exchange you had with him there.

[sc]

BK: What made you to actually do it then on this one day?

BERTIL NORDLAND: I didn't know when I got in the back door. I didn't know that I was in that location where these pictures that I've seen before were.

BK: I absolutely believe what you're saying, okay? I don't have reasons to not to believe you. I just want to understand this very moment you know how it was.

BERTIL NORDLAND: How can you understand a junkie that's been awake for four days and has 20 grams of amphetamine [cross talking] and eating a hundred pills. But that wasn't me.

[/sc]

CO: But that wasn't me. He said how can you understand a junkie who's been awake for four days? Did you believe you came to understand him, Barbora?

BK: Then I think the scene continues. I said that I truly hope that it was him because he did steal the works and that's what brought us together. If he did not steal my paintings, we would have hardly ever met. Yes, I believe him. You know, it actually became really secondary for me somehow the sight of the paintings. I don't want to sound too pathetic, but Bertil has brought to my life is so essential and so crucial and so important that suddenly the faith of the two stolen paintings came little bit secondary for me, if you understand what I mean.

CO: You said that he had that effect on you. Obviously you had a tremendous effect on him and he wrote to you a number of letters that Benjamin shows us in the film. In one of them, he says, nobody has ever seen me vulnerable like you have. But at the same time, we see both of you quite vulnerable, both of you are exposed in this way and we're not able to have Bertil for this interview. He wasn't available. But for you, Barbora, how did it feel for you to be so exposed?

BK: I think, how Bertil is exposed in the film and what he is showing there is a really different level from me. I mean, I'm mostly living in my bubble, locked in my painting. There is not much to hide or expose. [Chuckles] But yes, I mean, what you see there is a certain part of my life where as probably a painter, you struggle with the existential thing like money, food, does it all makes sense when everybody denies your work? So of course, one has doubts constantly. And one day is up the other day is down. Well, I think when you see the journey of Bertil and his ups and downs, of course, that's uncomparable.

CO: Benjamin, would you agree with that? Because you did pursue Bertil to talk about how he could see into Barbora as well. He had insights, didn't he, that you got him to describe. Do you think that it is just one sided or it is more about Bertil than it is about Barbora?

BR: I began researching this project based on contrasts, you know a painter and a thief. But after filming for many years, I began to realize that the painter and the thief are connected and much alike in many ways. And the film is also structured in a way that we jump back and forth in time, but also are changing perspectives. So first, the film, you see the world from Barbora, the painter's point of view, and then we jump back in time and then we see the world from Bertil's point of view. And I thought that was very interesting to explore. So it's both the story of a painter and the thief and how they view each other.

CO: Barbora there's -- I think people might get the impression that you became a couple. But then there is this other intimacy, you have a partner in this film. And he's still with you, I understand. And he is curious about your relationship with Bertil as well. And there's a part of the film where you are talking about this and he asks you about it. We're going to play that clip here.

[sc]

VOICE: Just okay. You are working around the world and I find some suffering, I say, whoa, that's beautiful, I want bring it into my studio. It's not the way of dealing with the world, isn't there a paradox here or...I don't know.

BK: This suffering has to fulfill one basic rule for me, it has to be aesthetic. It has to have aesthetics.

[/sc]

CO: And that was your response to Oystein, your partner. [Laughter] What was that about?

BK: So first of all, yeah I truly believe that the art should not be missing or lacking of aesthetics. It sounds little bit like as if there's nothing else in art than that. But I just want to say that art should have much more of than that. So this scene was about, you know, my partner, my boyfriend, who is also a very exquisite writer. He writes gorgeous literature, novels. So he does have very strong feelings for stories. And he is thinking really, truly, deeply about things much more than me. So, you know, I kind of mostly follow my life with a little intuitive. But Oystein has also much of intellectual part along of his intuition. So he forced me or still forces me to talk about things, which to me is quite a new experience. And I love it because I'm realizing things myself. So what Oystein is questioning here is why am I so attracted to certain darkness in nature or human nature? But I also want to point out one interesting thing that Oystein has brought up. And that's the certain question: we have the title of the film The Painter and the Thief, but at some point one can question who is the thief here? Because you can maybe also guess that I might be also stealing something from Bertil which might not be far from the truth.

CO: And that was your response, that you were pursuing the aesthetic, that there was at some point, even though you felt drawn to Bertil and sympathetic with him as a person, at some point you switch over and you are the painter. You are coolly looking at your subject, aren't you?

BK: Yes. And somebody can see this as quite a selfish act, but I can't help it. That's my work. I work 24/7 observing the world, observing what is around me and always having these notes for inspiration. Ready to take it all in. And Bertil is a great source of inspiration, not because he has or used to have his downfalls or so. But there is this true very deep sorrow in him that even if he is now in such wonderful shape, he's really having a great time of his life, he is so much back on his feet -- but this true deep soil that is in him, you can't shake that off, an existential pain that he really carries in him since he was born, basically.

CO: And were you exploiting that as an artist, do you think?

BK: Exploiting, I don't know, that's kind of a misleading word, but I tried to capture Bertil when he removes all his kind of self-protective masks away and lets me come in to him -- to look inside of him. I often manage that little bit.

CO: There was always in all those moments with you and Bertil, there was always a third person in the room. And Benjamin did a very good job at being that fly on the wall, that invisible eye. But you were watching all this. You were there. And when you put this together, this film and showed it to Bertil, how did he respond?

BR: He thought it was very tough to see the first part of the film where he was struggling a lot with addiction. And I think that was very painful for him to see. In the film Bertil says my defects grow in the dark and die in the light of exposure. So he is kind of a poet, in the way. And I think that also by showing all the shameful moments over the film that maybe also has helped Bertil to be open about his process. And, you know, Bertil, he was as low as you can get both physically and mentally. And from being so kind of low and then building yourself up to where he is today, that's the most impressive thing I've ever experienced in my life. So I think like in the film Bertil was watching the film, I think he really saw his change also. And I think that was good for him to see.

CO: Barbora, how did it affect you when you saw the film?

BK: I saw the film once. It was actually interesting, because I felt like I'm able to, as a viewer, to disconnect from the personal connection with the person on the screen. I knew I watched the story of Bertil, and me and all the people included, but somehow the overall story is just bigger than me, myself. Of course. So I was actually astonished. It was such great work that Benjamin did.

CO: It really is, I have to say, Benjamin, you did an extraordinary job in this documentary of creating that portrait of an intimacy between an artist and a thief.

BR: Thank you. And of course, it's many people working on this project. So I had amazing people around me, an amazing editor, amazing cinematographer. So it's teamwork of course. It's been a great team behind the film.

CO: And as I say we're not going to spoil some of the twists and turns because there are some surprising moments. But there's one of your paintings, the one that Bertil stole called Chloe & Emma. Barbora do you ever think you'll see it again?

BK: One part of me hopes that I will not. I kind of like to keep this mystery [chuckles] but it's not that I don't care. Of course I care. It's my very darling painting. But, you know, I'm going to now make a new version of the painting. It's going to be Chloe & Emma After Seven Years. So I'll create a new one.

CO: Barbora and Benjamin, it's really lovely to speak with you. And it was extraordinary to watch your documentary too. Thank you both.

BR: Thank you so much for having us.

BK: Thank you very much. It was a pleasure.

CH: Barbora Kysilkova is the painter whose work is at the center of Benjamin Ree's documentary, The Painter and the Thief. The film premieres virtually in Canada next week at an online edition of Toronto's annual Hot Docs Film Festival. Ms. Kysilkova is in the woods of Sweden and Mr. Ree is in Oslo. And for more from their conversation, you can visit our website: cbc.ca/aih.

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May 18, 2020

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