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The AIH Transcript for May 6, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Too weird to fail? A group of soldiers and mercenaries tried to overthrow the Maduro government in Venezuela, and an ex Green Beret from Canada may have been one of the masterminds behind the botched incursion.

CH: Driving the point home. Airport taxi drivers in Toronto say at least six of their colleagues have died of COVID-19 and that the companies they worked for didn't do enough to keep them safe.

CO: Quebec says it's reopening schools next week for kids mental health. But one mom tells us the new school rules designed to keep people apart might do more harm than good.

CH: Leading by example, the San Francisco district attorney has released nearly half the inmates at the county jail due to COVID-19. Now he's hopeful a prison on the other side of the country will do the same for his father.

CO: Lollipop sensation. We remember Millie Small, who introduced the world to a new sound with a sugary hip that remains the best-selling ska single ever.

CH: And go big or go to your students' homes. One Texas principal wants to give the class of 2020 a proper graduation, so he and his wife drove over a thousand kilometres to congratulate each student in person. As It Happens. The Wednesday Edition. Really of that knows a personal touch his alma maters.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Botched raid in Venezuela 'a real gift' to the Maduro government, says analyst

Venezuela Attempted Coup

Guest: Phil Gunson

CH: Venezuela has seen a lot of upheaval, but even by Venezuelan standards, this latest development is bizarre. A thwarted coup attempt involved an amphibious raid on the country using a fleet of fishing boats behind the attempt or several hundred malnourished Venezuelan soldiers and some American mercenaries. Two Americans, both former soldiers, have been arrested in Venezuela. And one Canadian who served in the U.S. Green Berets says he was at the centre of the plan. Jordan Goudreau, who also says he served in the Canadian Armed Forces, now lives in Florida, where he runs a private security firm called Silvercorp USA. The Venezuelan opposition has denied any involvement in the failed coup, and so has Washington, which backs Opposition Leader Juan Gauido. Phil Gunson works for the International Crisis Group, a nonprofit think tank in Venezuela. We reached him in Caracas.

CO: Phil, what do you make of this failed invasion?

PHIL GUNSON: Well, perhaps invasion is a rather grand term for what appears to have been a series of rather incompetent incursions, which have left most of those involved either dead or imprisoned by the Maduro government. It's a complicated story. But at the heart of it, I think, is a bunch of mercenaries who saw an opportunity to sell a deal to people in the Venezuelan opposition leadership who fairly rapidly concluded that these were not people they wanted to have many dealings with and tried to cut things off. But it appears to have been too late. The whole thing went ahead with what I think will be quite serious public relations consequences for the opposition leadership. And obviously for the Maduro government, it's a real gift.

CO: We're wondering in Canada about this one character who is involved with this, Jordan Goudreau, who is in the American press described as an ex Green Beret. But we know him to also apparently be a Canadian citizen who was in the Canadian Forces in 1990s, studied computer science, University of Calgary. What was Jordan Goudreau's role in all this?

PG: He seems to have been the prime mover, in a sense. I mean, he describes himself as a strategic analyst. It appears he wasn't going to get his boots dirty, but he sold the Venezuelan opposition on the idea that with some help from former Venezuelan military people in Colombia, deserters from the Venezuelan military, he could, by inserting a number of groups into the country, he could capture some key regime people and effectively overthrow the government. And at least at the beginning, they appear to believe him.

CO: And so they thought they could basically with these with they been described in another story as being 300 hungry, untrained men, that they were going to take on the military of Venezuela and get through that and overthrow the Maduro government. Is that essentially the plot?

PG: Well, that's pretty much exactly -- they don't necessarily describe them as trained, but certainly they admit that they were hungry. And yes, I mean, that was what they thought they could do. It is crazy, though it seems. The plan, you know, never did look as if it was going to work. And Goudreau says that he was never paid. Although it's now emerging that there was a $50,000 payment. It appears at the beginning for "expenses." But he didn't get the money that he needed to mount the operation. And he went ahead anyway because he's a freedom fighter and not a mercenary. Although cynics may prefer to believe that he hoped that he was going to get the $213-million that's apparently specified in the contract that he claims he signed with Jaun Gauido.

CO: Juan Guaido being the leader of the opposition in Venezuela and someone whom Canada has given support to.

PG: Well, that's right. You know, Guaido, who is recognized by several dozen countries, including the U.S. and most of the European Union, as the legitimate head of state in Venezuela. They say that Nicolas Maduro was fraudulently elected back in or re-elected, I should say, back in 2018. And Juan Guaido though, as the head of the legislature, is entitled to claim the interim presidency pending fresh free elections. But I imagine that a lot of these governments who are supporting Guaido, will look at this askance and say, you know, do we really want our reputations to be linked to someone who's prepared to apparently put his name to something quite so crazy as this?

CO: Is there any evidence that Juan Guaido did support this? I mean, he's quoted as saying that he doesn't even know the people involved with this. He thought it was a suicide mission or those around him thought so and that he wanted no part of it. Is there any evidence that he played any role?

PG: Well, they've been very careful, actually, in their response. They have not said a lot. They do say that they don't have any relationship with Silver Corp, which is Goudreau's security outfit or whatever you want to call it. They say they don't have a relationship. Whether they ever did, I think it is a matter that hasn't really been explored properly yet. And just now, we're learning by press reports that JJ Rendon is a political strategist, political adviser, who apparently signed the contract with Goudreau, has admitted that there was a contract and that there was a payment. So it seems that there's a lot more to be answered that so far has not been addressed. And I don't think this is going to go away unfortunately for Juan Guaido.

CO: Just finally, what we're hearing from President Maduro is that he says this, is the evidence you need that the world is against me, that it is probably the CIA behind this etc. How much damage has this done to the Venezuelan opposition?

PG: I think it's done a lot of damage. I think it's done, more importantly perhaps, it's done a lot of damage to the prospects of a negotiated peaceful solution to the Venezuelan crisis, which, of course, has been building for 20 years and has led to a humanitarian emergency here. We desperately need a solution. And the only real sustainable solution is a negotiated peaceful solution. It's very unlikely that this is going to be resolved by force of arms. So that, I think is the worst aspect to this. It's not that, you know, an agreement was at hand or even that the two sides were likely to go back to the negotiating table in the near future. But certainly this makes the atmosphere much more difficult and it's hard to see how that can be any restoration of even a minimum of trust when this sort of thing is going on.

CO: We will leave it there, Phil. We'll be following the story. And I appreciate you giving us this update. Thank you.

PG: Thank you very much.

CH: Phil Gunson works for the International Crisis Group in Venezuela. He was in Caracas. And you can find more on that story on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Quebec School Rules

Guest: Julia Nicol

CH: Next week, some kids in Quebec will be heading back to elementary school. But it won't be a school experience they recognize. School boards across the province have sent out rules to parents on how socially distanced in-person learning is going to work. Everyone must be two metres apart at all times, no playground, no gym class, no sharing books. For all elementary schools in the province except for Montreal, these new school rules roll out on Monday. But Julia Nicol's young daughters won't be going. They go to school in a French school board in western Quebec. And we reached Julia Nicol in Gatineau.

CO: Julia, why have you decided that you will not be sending your daughters to school on Monday?

JULIA NICOL: It is a hard choice. There's a few factors. One of them is that it seems like there's a lot of uncertainty about the virus. We don't know about it. And I'm not a scientist, but I read articles. And one day it says kids are major vectors. The next day, it seems like maybe they're not. So there's just a lot of uncertainty. And then my other sort of main point was thinking there's only 15 kids that can go back. And my kids, I checked with their teachers, they're not worried about their academic progress. And if more than 15 go, that means a new teacher, a new class, etc. And it's already going to be a big transition getting used to the new rules. So it seemed better to leave those spots to kids who need the extra attention. And the teacher or parents who have to be going back to work -- I'm able to work from home and balance that with following my kids school.

CO: What are the new rules? Can you outline what kids and teachers are expected to do starting on Monday?

JN: From what I understand, everybody I say two metres apart at all times, can't use balls, can't play tag and stuff. So at recess, it'll be a lot harder. Obviously, as school learning has progressed, they changed the way things are done, getting off, going into sort of areas where kids do things or group projects -- we can't do any of that. So it will be much sort of like 1950s learning in your desk, from what I understand. So that'll be quite challenging, particularly for kids who have ADHD or that sort of thing, I imagine. And you can't touch your friends all that.

CO: Right. And so you mentioned the 15 kids, which is they only allowed 15 kids per room so they can keep the distance. There will be no gym class, no playgrounds. They can't play with a ball or a game that they share. They can't share their books. They have to keep all this in mind. There's no physical education, no music. What do you think that would be like to go to school in those conditions?

JN: When we were told that one of the reasons to go back was sort of mental health and kids, that they needed to go back and see their friends -- it's a bit hard to say, but I guess that my kids might find it as hard to adapt to that as to being at home. So when I talked to them originally, they're excited to go back to school. But when I was saying explaining what it would be like, they looked not sure.

CO: Your daughters are in grade two and grade four, is that right?

JN: Yes.

CO: This is what the line is, is that kids can follow rules, they know how to do these things, they adapt much better than we do, in fact. So do you not think that kids could manage to follow all these rules and to get something out of the classroom experience?

JN: I mean, it's hard to tell. You know, I'm in no way an expert. And as I've been talking to other people who want to send their kids, I realize it's entirely an individual choice and you have to pick what's right for your family. To me, I don't know. I've told my kids a thousand times to turn off the lights, but here we are. And I'm still telling them every day to turn off the light. [Chuckles] So I just think about situations like it's relatively common from what I understand to have behavioural issues in the class. So if somebody's throwing things, well, kids are going to run out of the way of whatever is being thrown as opposed to sitting there two metres a particle and a ball in one corner potentially. So there's all that kind of stuff. And assumes everybody is on the best behavior, which obviously with smaller groups it may be easier to manage. And teachers are far better at managing that sort of thing than I am at a birthday party when I have chaos of 15 kids. So it may work fine, but it seems like a lot. And it's also not clear. Originally the teachers were also suppose to be responsible for online learning for the kids that are staying home, I think people realize that wasn't feasible. So we don't know how that's going to fit in.

CO: From the the rules I've read, it's not just that teachers will be teaching and not just that they will have to keep these rules, but they're going to have to police situations, aren't they? Including the lunchroom, the playground, the classroom. Because as you point out, it just takes just a moment when kids forget what they're doing and they run to catch a ball or to hug a friend or to share their lunch. So how do you think good teachers are going to manage all this?

JN: I don't think anyone's going assuming that everything is going to be perfect all the time. And I think some teachers are worrying. They feel like a lot of pressure. What happens if somebody gets COVID at the school and then people say, well, you didn't do enough? You know, it's not an easy situation. But a lot of people just sort of feel like they have to go back to life as normal. They can't continue at home the way they are. There's a broad range.

CO: What are other parents saying? Do you know anyone who is going to send their kids to school?

JN: Yeah. Originally I'd kind of assumed it would be on socioeconomic breakdown so people with white collar jobs could work from home, would be keeping their kids home. And it would be interesting to see the data. But I'm seeing, you know, middle class white collar people who are sending their kids either because they're finding it hard to manage work and schooling or their kids just want to get out and want to get back to school. Basically they trust that everyone will be doing the best they can to keep the kids safe.

CO: How do your daughters feel about all of this?

JN: I mean, in an ideal world, they'd go back to school as normal, but they're okay staying home. I was surprised, actually, at how okay they were at a home and they've been pretty good at adapting. We have a yard, though, like I don't know -- I feel we're pretty privileged in that I have the choice to send my kids. I'm not forced by my employment situation or whatever. And we have a yard, we have a small bungalow, so we have enough space. Obviously, if we were six kids in an apartment, it might be a different story.

CO: If this situation continues into September, do you think that you will change your mind?

JN: I mean, I'm hoping that by September we have more clear understanding of the virus and how immunity works with it. Also, that all the kinks to be worked out at school. So that obviously at the beginning of any new system is when there's less chance for more errors. I mean, I can't imagine not having them in school in September, but we're in a pretty unprecedented time. So I don't know for sure, but I'm kind of imagining that everybody's going back in September.

CO: I hope you're right, Julia.

JN: Me too.

CO: Thanks for speaking with us.

JN: My pleasure.

CH: Julia Nicol's young daughters attend school in a French school board in western Quebec, but they won't be going back next week. We reached Ms. Nicol in Gatineau.

[Music]

San Francisco Inmates

Guest: Chesa Boudin

CH: Chesa Boudin is the district attorney of San Francisco. In that capacity, he's been releasing inmates from the county jail in light of the COVID-19 outbreak. It's an administrative decision, but it's also personal. On the other side of the country, in New York, Mr. Boudin's 75 year old father, is in prison. We reached District Attorney Chesa Boudin in San Francisco.

CO: Mr. Boudin, what is it about COVID-19, that made you want to release these inmates from the county jail?

CHESA BOUDIN: I ran for district attorney on a platform committed to ending mass incarceration because I knew firsthand and through years of study and professional experience that sending people to jail and prison at the unprecedented and unparalleled breaks that we do in the United States -- we incarcerate 25 percent of the world's prisoners in this country -- I knew that it actually makes us less safe. But what COVID-19 showed us is that mass incarceration also presents a very serious threat to public safety. And we've seen places like Marion Prison in Ohio, where more than 70 percent of the inmates that tested positive. Or like Cook County jail in Chicago, where more than a thousand cases of COVID-19 can be traced directly to the people in the jail.

CO: Can you tell us a bit about what these people were in jail for? Because we're hearing -- these are arguments we're hearing in Canada as well that people need to be let out in. And the pushback is, well, they're dangerous in some way. Who are these people whom you've released?

CB: But we're looking at every single person in the county jail and we're trying to find ways to safely release them. It's important to remember that 99 percent of people who are arrested and taken to jail will be released at some point. And it's just a question of when and on what conditions with what supports. So what we're trying to do is expedite the process for those people who we feel we can safely release. And I'm excited to say that thus far of the people we released early, less than 7 percent were arrested before they would have otherwise been released. It's a far higher success rate than we have with people coming home from state prison.

CO: I understand for you, this is personal. Your father is serving a sentence of 75 years to life in prison. How worried are you about his own safety?

CB: Very worried. The person in the cell immediately next to my father is on his cell block in prison, was evacuated with COVID-19. Every time my father goes to the telephone to call me or my mother, he's taking his life in his hands. He's 75 years old. He has underlying medical conditions. He does not have a single disciplinary violation in his 38 years in prison. He presents no public safety risk, and yet he's still incarcerated in conditions and circumstances that very directly threatened his life.

CO: You wrote in an op-ed in the L.A. Times that your parents, you said they were political activists. They were part of the what was known as the Weather Underground in the 1960s. And they made, as you say, a terrible decision to take part in a botched robbery. Your mother served 22 years. Your father is still in prison. What has the experience of what happened to your parents --how does that inform these ideas you have about incarceration in the United States?

CB: My earliest memories are going through metal detectors and steel gates just to visit my parents, just to be able to give them a hug. I spent my whole life impacted by thinking about and witnessing the failures of America's criminal justice system. America's experiment with mass incarceration on a scale never before seen in human history. It does not make us safer. It does not reduce crime. It does not rehabilitate people who have committed crime. And it certainly does not meet the real needs of crime victims. So my experience has showed me that the system is broken and we need to fix it and we need to start investing in prevention, in healing, in reentry. And that's exactly what we're doing in San Francisco.

CO: And do you believe that your father should also be released?

CB: Absolutely. He presents no threat to public safety and his life is in jeopardy every single day that he is incarcerated.

CO: You have been criticized because the police believe and many people who believe in a stronger incarceration rate, that you are soft on crime and that this is perhaps more evidence of it. Are you getting pushback from people as you make the argument that people should be released from jails and prisons, especially because of COVID-19?

CB: There are always critics on Twitter and other places. But the reality is, if we look at data and if we look at what public health requires in the midst of this pandemic, there's broad consensus for reducing the jail populations and reducing the prison populations. San Francisco's leading the way, but many other jurisdictions across the United States and across the world have recognized the urgent need to decrease the densely populated jail and prisons in order to save lives.

CO: Do you think that COVID-19 has given us a greater awareness of what is happening in prisons -- that some of the things that you have been advocating for for years, perhaps more at the fore now because we're dealing with this other layer of crisis?

CB: Yes, I think it's the silver lining that we're seeing. You know, we're recognizing that some of the people who we've been incarcerating as a default without thinking carefully about why incarceration is an appropriate or if it's an appropriate response to the crime that's committed. We're now taking a closer look. So, for example, in San Francisco, we found a woman in jail with a high risk pregnancy who had been convicted of a misdemeanor, a low level nonviolent offense. And, you know, that's someone who we have to really question, should she have been in jail in first place, but certainly not in the context of COVID-19. I'm proud to say we got her out of jail and into a prenatal care centre where she can live and receive treatment until her high risk pregnancy result in the birth of a precious new life.

CO: Mr. Boudin we will leave it there. Thank you.

CB: Thank you so much. I hope you're safe and healthy.

CO: Thank you.

CH: Chesa Boudin is the district attorney of San Francisco.

[Music]

Remembering Millie Smalls

CH: Someone once presented Millie Small with the world's largest lollipop. Regrettably, the dimensions of that big candy circle on a stick have been lost to time. But we do know that Ms. Small took that unusual gift in stride as she did all the other outsized ups and downs of her life. She was born in Jamaica and launched her career there after winning a talent contest at age 12. At 16, she was on a plane from Kingston to London with a British manager who thought she could make a mark on the music scene there, which she did. The next year, Ms. Small had the number to hit single in the U.K. and the U.S. and she introduced the world to ska.

[MUSIC: Millie Small's "My Boy Lollipop"]

CH: Ms. Small's version of "My Boy Lollipop" came out in 1964 and it remains one of the best selling ska songs ever. The success of that song, however, did not translate into a steady career. And before long, she left the business entirely. For a period, she was penniless and living on the streets in London. She later told an interviewer she saw it all as experience and that she was grateful for it. Millie Small died yesterday after suffering a stroke. She was 72 years old. Before she ended her music career, Ms. Small used what life had taught her to issue a powerful and personal response to an inflammatory anti-immigration speech given by the British Conservative MP Enoch Powell, calling for the repatriation of immigrants. Here is Millie Small with Enoch Powell.

[MUSIC: Millie Small's "Enoch Power"]

Part 2: This Texas principal donned a mask and visited all 612 of his graduating seniors

Taxi Drivers Covid

Guest: Rajinder Aujla

CH: Taxi drivers in Toronto say their safety has been put at risk. The drivers union says that at least six of its members have died of confirmed cases of COVID-19. Four other cases remain unconfirmed. And although their exposure can't be definitively linked to their jobs, the union says the drivers weren't properly protected from the virus. The latest driver to die of COVID was Karam Singh Punian, who drove an airport limo. Rajinder Aujla knew Mr. Punian well. Mr. Aujla is a driver and the president of the Airport Taxi Association. We reached him in Toronto.

CO: Rajunder I understand you knew the latest airport taxi driver who has died, Karam Singh Punian. What can you tell us about what happened? What are the details of this?

RAJINDER AUJLA: At the end of March he felt a little bit sick. He went to the hospital. And they sent him back and put him in self-isolation. And during that isolation, his condition got worse. And then he had to be hospitalized. I believe, from the 1st of April he was in the hospital.

CO: And this makes him the tenth of the drivers, 10 drivers who have died. Is that right?

RA: Yeah, airport drivers.

CO: And so how are you feeling about that? What are your thoughts about what's happening?

RA: Yeah, I think there was the lack of for the precaution with people who are coming at that time. They were coming from a different part of the world and those people were infected and our drivers got infected from those passengers.

CO: Of the 10 drivers who have died, six have been diagnosed outright with COVID-19 and the others, the other four are suspected cases.

RA: We are not sure about the other ones. But the six we heard, they are diagnosed as COVID-19 cases.

CO: Has there been anything changed in the way you are driving or the safety precautions since these drivers started to get sick?

RA: The only thing that changed was that the drivers are taking care of themselves. And there is a little bit efforts from the Toronto airport authorities. They provide some safety gear. But that was too late. By that time, too many drivers were infected.

CO: How is the family of Karam Singh Punian responding to this? What are you hearing from them?

RA: Today was his funeral. I was there. So everyone was in grief and they were mourning his death. It was a very very sad moment for the whole family and relatives and friends.

CO: And how long had he been driving?

RA: He was at the airport almost 30 years.

CO: My gosh. Did he have any concerns? Did you talk about your worries about their safety?

RA: So at that time, we were worried about that. And we did bring that to the notice of the authorities that they could provide some safety gear. [Inaudible]

CO: So it was after the drivers started to die that they thought you should get some safety gear. And what did they provide you with?

RA: At that time they provided gloves.

CO: Gloves?

RA: Yes.

CO: What about masks?

RA: At that time, in the beginning, they did not provide masks. And right now, if they are providing, I am not aware of that.

CO: And the other drivers, your friends, what are they saying? How worried are they about what's going on there?

RA: They are pretty much worried. I was at the airport today and I talked to a few of them and they said that the GTA is not providing them he masks. They are looking after themselves. Whatever gloves they provide, they are not workable gloves because we have to put luggage of the passenger in the car and take it off. So they are not built for that -- those safety gloves.

CO: You're carrying the luggage, you're still stashing the luggage and driving people who are coming from all around the world -- you know nothing about them, what the state of their health, is that right?

RA: We are not aware of their health. But I came to know today that now most of the passengers, are wearing gloves and having their masks on.

CO: How difficult has it been for drivers, given that you had such a slowdown in the numbers of customers? What's happening with the airport drivers?

RA: The airport industry is almost dead now. People who are working there are just sitting there. And they are not making that much money. They cannot not even make the expenses. I talked to them today, only ten or fifteen cars are working and they are hardly making two to three runs a day within 17-18 hours.

CO: Do you know why Karam Singh Punian kept working?

RA: Actually, at that time, there was not proper information given and everyone was thinking that now there are only four airport open in Canada and everyone assumed that they will be looked after and everyone will be checked in and we have safe to work there. We don't have any proper information. That's the reason that most of the drivers got infected with this virus.

CO: We will leave it there Rajinder. It's just really difficult for all your drivers. And I'm sorry about your friend.

RA: I really thankful for your sympathy. The driver community and their family, we appreciate it.

CH: Rajinder Aujla is the president of the Airport Taxi Association and a driver himself. We reached him in Toronto.

[Music]

Keir Starmer

CH: More people have died from COVID-19 in the United Kingdom than almost anywhere else in the world. And the people of the United Kingdom want to know why. Keir Starmer is among them. Today, the new leader of the UK's Labour Party got his first chance to question Prime Minister Boris Johnson in parliament. Here's part of that exchange.

KEIR STARMER: Mr. Speaker, when the prime minister returned to work a week ago Monday, he said that many people were looking at the apparent success of the government's approach. But yesterday, we learned tragically that at least twenty nine thousand four hundred twenty seven people in the UK have now lost their lives to this dreadful virus. That's now the highest number in Europe. It is the second highest in the world. That's not success or apparent success. So can the prime minister tell us how on earth did it come to this?

SPEAKER: 5 minutes sir.

BORIS JOHNSON: Mr. Speaker, first of all, of course, every death is a tragedy. And he's right to draw attention to the appalling statistics, not just in this country, but, of course, around the world. I think I would echo really an answer to his question what we've heard from Professor David Spiegelhalter and others, that at this stage, I don't think that international comparisons and the data is yet to draw the conclusions that we want. What I can tell you is that at every stage, as we took the decisions that we did, we were governed by one overriding principle and aim, and that was to save lives and to protect our NHS. And I believe that, of course, there will be a time to look at what decisions we took and whether we could have taken different decisions. But I have absolutely no doubt that what the people of this country want us to do now is, as I said just now, to suppress this disease, to keep suppressing this disease and to begin the work of getting our country's economy back on its feet. I look forward to working with him and colleagues around the House to do just that.

CH: British Prime Minister Boris Johnson responding to a question from UK Opposition Leader Keir Starmer earlier today.

[Music]

Texas Grads Visit

Guest: Virdie Montgomery

CH: High School Principal Virdie Montgomery is known for his dedication to school spirit and to his students at Wylie High School in Texas. So with graduation ceremonies canceled across the country, he decided to commemorate the occasion in a special way for all six hundred and twelve of his students. Principal Montgomery and his wife drove 800 miles in total, visiting each and every student at home, congratulating them, and leaving them with a gift. We reached Virdie Montgomery in Wylie, Texas.

CO: Virdie, how did it feel at the end of the journey to see all your students?

VIRDIE MONTGOMERY: Well, the feeling was really...it took twelve days to do it. So it was kind of feeling along the way. The last day we had 73 homes to get to and it was going to be the 12th day. And I had this thing in my head that if I wanted to do this 12 day Christmas thing or a 12 day of journey, so I had to finish. I wanted to finish it. So I was pretty driven that day to get it done because there's no song for 13. [CO Chuckles] So we did it.

CO: And you got to see each of them, I understand, 612 students in the graduating class who you wanted to congratulate. Did you get to see every single one?

VM: Not every single one. The plan was I had a card with me and on the top of the card, it says, I came to your house. And if they weren't there, I put it in the mailbox with the Snicker because they didn't get to hear the lame joke. And then some of them, I went back to it because I missed them and they said, please come back out, I didn't see you or stuff like that. So some of those journeys were back and forth. And if they weren't there, if they were at work or if they were just not available, then I would take a picture with like a brother or sister or parent or one time a grandfather who was there. So the goal was to get to every address. 612 addresses, but I ended up at 636 addresses because -- our mascot is the pirate -- and some of our pirates have cheated on their addresses over the years. And you have to live in our district to go to our school. Obviously, some of them were not doing that so that was kind of fun too.

CO: They obviously wanted to be in your school -- I can guess why.

VM: I'm hoping that's the reason. I think that's a pretty good thing that we're doing. And, you know, some of them -- you know, marriages that were split and stuff like that. So you'd miss the kid because maybe they stay with mom or stay with dad. You know, stuff like that.

CO: Why did it mean so much to you to see and to speak to each of your graduating students?

VM: We were on spring break when this hit. And the first layer of it was that we were gonna get an extra week of spring break. Well, that extra week, spring break went over really well -- I mean everyone was going like "All right! Cool" -- you know? And you know who doesn't want another week of spring break? But they just didn't see where we were going. And then during the middle of that second week, we got everything set up. We could tell this was not going to end as far as administration stuff goes. So we got set up for online schooling. Word got out and kids got worried about it. And then we set an arbitrary date of May the 4th to come back. And then it didn't happen. And so we started doing things for them -- as a school board and it was really brilliant and narrow. They went out and had senior signs made, put them in all the yards, had the transportation department deliver them. And we had a student, Harper Cummings, who came up with a slogan just playing around. He said, "Where's the class of 2020? We're supposed to have vision, but we sure didn't see this coming." So we had T-shirts made up with that slogan on it and we gave it to all the seniors. We had a curbside cap and gown. But whenever that happened and I saw their faces, when they picked up their caps and gowns, oh, gosh. We had signs all over the building saying "we miss you" and stuff like that. And they got really emotional. I got emotional. And when that was done, I felt like I hadn't done enough. You know, there's something else we could do. And of course, the first thing I do when I need to meet kids is I call a class meeting. Well, I can't call a senior meeting because they're all at home. So it just hit me. Well, I can't call a senior meeting and they can't come to me, I'll just come to them. And I told my wife that this is what I'm going to do. And she just looked at me like, you know, there's over 600 students? I know, I know. I think I can do it in a couple of days. That was my first thought that I could do that in a couple of days. After day one, I said man this is going to take awhile. [Chuckles] But we persevered and we got it done.

CO: And she did a lot of the driving, I guess.

VM: She did all the driving. She did the driving and she did the navigation. I had 17 pages of Google Maps that my secretary -- she took all the seniors and put them on there. And they were supposed to be in order. But, you know, Google Maps is real not good like that. But it was a labour of love. And I'm so blessed that I got to do it.

CO: I've seen pictures of some of the encounters. And you're wearing a mask, obviously, as you arrive at their door. And I just see the faces of beaming young people. They're just so happy to see you.

VM: Yes, ma'am. It was really cool. Some of them you're really really close to you know. And, you know, there are 612 personalities there. So you didn't give a flying flip, but they still took the picture with me and stuff like that. But it was the most rewarding thing. And I told them up front, this is more for me than it is for you because y'all are handling this stuff fine. I just need to see you guys before this thing ends.

CO: And you mentioned that you put a Snickers in their mailbox if they weren't there. Tell us what were you giving to them and including what is the joke you told more than 600 times?

VM: Yeah, yeah, it's a lame joke. Some people have called it a dad joke or whatever else. I own it. So I came up with the idea, I'll go up there. My comment was to them "I know things at Wylie High School aren't real happy right now because you guys aren't there. You all make a difference. And this is all hard. But one of these days we're going to look back on this and we're going to 'snicker.'" And then I'd give them this little snicker bar and they would laugh. Have our moment, take a selfie, and I'd ask him how they're doing, if they got their cap and gown. Some of them even came out dressed in their cap and gown. That was what was really cool. They would just come out dressed in it. You know, that's a special thing for a kid to do that, you know. And I would post everyday what streets I was going to go on. There would be 20-30 streets I was going to make a day. One neighbourhood I got into was really fun. They actually helped me. I got in the neighbourhood and I'd go to knock on their door and we did our thing and then I'd get to the next door and they are already out on the front porch because they were texting each other saying, "Hey, he is in the neighbourhood." So that sped everything up a lot. So a lot of times I'd knock on the door, and I would have to wait for them to get out of bed or the shower. Our kids take showers at some of the strangest times during the day I found. You go at 2 o'clock in the afternoon kids are in the shower. They hadn't done anything all day. They did the whole online learning. But that's what they do. It was eye opening at times. We had a good time.

CO: [Chuckles] Virdie you sound like a very special principal and Wylie High School sounds like a very special place to graduate from. And I really appreciate hearing the story. Thank you.

VM: You bet.

CO: Take care.

VM: You have a good day.

CH: Virdie Montgomery is the principal of Wylie High School in Texas. That's where we reached him. And you can find more on that story on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Florian Schneider

CH: The flute might be the most human of instruments. You can always hear the person playing it, like their breath blowing across the mouthpiece. So Florian Schneider's journey with the flute was unusual. He started out playing in the classic fashion. Then he started treating it electronically. So it didn't sound like a flute anymore. He turned it into a kind of robot instrument. And then he turned himself into a robot. Florian Schneider, the co-founder of Kraftwerk, one of the most influential groups of the late 20th century, died last week. He was 73. He was not actually a robot, but he played one on TV and on album covers and onstage. But that was something between an aesthetic and a conceptual joke. Still, despite that imagery and the machines, Kraftwerk always included human warmth in their music. Their first big hit Autobahn was all synthesizers and drum machine. But the chorus went like this.

[MUSIC: Kraftwerk's "Autobahn"]

CH: So a tribute to a German highway performed on machines containing a reference to the Beach Boys. Not the kind of thing actual robots would do. The Autobahn album and their next invented a new kind of pop music and then reinvented it. And then went on to influence everything from techno to pop to hip hop. While the individual members, Florian Schneider in particular, remained completely mysterious, happy to be just ghosts in the machines.

[Music]

Part 3: Egyptian Filmmaker Obit

Egyptian Filmmaker Obit

Guest: Ramy Essam

CH: The Egyptian government has made it clear that it has zero tolerance for dissent or mockery even when it comes from a music video. Two years ago, a man who contributed to the making of one such video, Shady Habash, was thrown in prison. Last Friday, he died there without ever facing trial. Ramy Essam is a popular Egyptian musician who wrote and performed the song that got Mr. Habash in so much trouble. They were also close friends. We reached him in Guttenberg, Sweden.

CO: Ramy, first of all, I want to say I'm sorry for the loss of your friend.

RAMY ESSAM: Yeah, it's terrifying fact to even believe.

CO: When did you get the news of Shady's death?

RE: I woke up 7 a.m. on the 2nd of May -- just saw many messages from friends or even like normal random people from social media platforms because the news was out already. And I had to contact a very close friend to Shady because I was still hoping that this is just false news. But it wasn't.

CO: And what have you been told as to how he died?

RE: The only fact about Shady's death is that there was medical negligence and he needed care that he didn't get. He needed help, but he didn't get. What happened before that, why he was feeling bad, this for me is a mystery. And the only one to prove what really happened is Shady Habash and he is head.

CO: And the authorities, they do say that he was poisoned. But they he said that he mistakenly was drinking an alcohol based hand sanitizer that had been given to prisoners because of COVID-19 and that he thought it was water and he drank that and that's how he died. What do you make of that explanation?

RE: Yeah, this is exactly what I meant with the mystery. And it doesn't make any difference to me. It shouldn't make any difference to anybody, especially that it will not bring Shady back. And it will not change the fact that he was in need for health care, for support, for help that he didn't get. This is the only thing we have to bring up and talk about and ask for the opening of an investigation.

CO: Shady was 24 years old. Is that right?

RE: He was 24. He was going to be 25 in August.

CO: And he spent the past two years in prison without any trial. Is that right?

RE: That is correct.

CO: Why was he incarcerated?

RE: Shady was in jail because his name was mentioned as a director of a music video for one of my songs. And this is insane. This is not where an artist can just do art and an end up to death. Especially that art is not a crime. And Shady put his name there because he believed that making art would never cause harm. And we have to mention that Shady doesn't have anything even to do with the content of the song. What's been said in the song and the message is my message and it's my responsibility. And even the process of making the video, Shady was not aware of it when we were filming it because it was filmed outside Egypt by another artist, another filmmaker. And then we sent the raw footage. And the post-production process (was sent) to Shady, and that's what he did and nothing more. And he still ended up in jail for two years without being sentenced. And then he died.

CO: What is it about that song that seemed to have got the attention and the anger of the authorities in Egypt?

RE: Yeah, it's a song that was criticizing the regime. And in Egypt, they didn't want that. They want to silence everybody and oppress all opinions. Sad to say that this is Egypt now.

CO: Shady was the third prisoner of conscience to die within the past 10 months, apparently in that Tora prison in this cell block, number four. What were the conditions? What are the conditions for prisoners who are held in that block?

RE: I don't think that the problem is only that block. It is a major problem in the jails in a country like Egypt -- not only Egypt, other countries like Egypt do. And these places are not under good conditions. And if there was a medical negligence that was brought up to the public to talk about it because of the deaths of Shady and the others before him. But that doesn't take away that it is the case of the bad conditions there and the lack of health care all the time. And during last two years Shady's life in jail, it was not much better than his last days anyway. He just needed extra help because he was dying and he didn't get it.

CO: He was able to get a letter from prison out to friends who quoted him on Facebook. He apparently had said that prison doesn't kill, loneliness does. And he said it was a struggle to, quote, "stop yourself going mad or dying slowly because you've been thrown in a room two years ago and forgotten." Were you able to have any communication with Shady in the past couple of years?

RE: Yeah. I can't talk about that. But for sure, we were in touch through the lawyer. There was a lawyer in the case. There was a male lawyer that we were able to know how was the news and how they are in there through him all the time.

CO: How do you want Shady to be remembered?

RE: Shady deserves to be remembered as a super talented artist that did many brilliant art pieces. People shouldn't remember him only because of one music video. They have to remember him as how kind of a person (he was) and was full of dreams and looking for the future. And funny, and he was a super peaceful person. He deserves the people to remember him like that.

CO: Ramy once again, I'm sorry for the loss and I appreciate you telling us about your friend Shady. Thank you.

RE: Thank you.

CH: Ramy Essam was a close friend and collaborator of Egyptian filmmaker Shady Habash, who died in prison on Friday. We reached Mr. Essam in Gothenburg, Sweden.

[Music]

Dan Kinsella

CH: One of the many horrifying scars from last month's mass shooting in Nova Scotia is becoming increasingly clear. Many people in the province fear they can no longer trust the police. The gunman in April's rampage dressed up as an RCMP officer and drove a vehicle that appeared to be a police car. Now Nova Scotians are on edge about who exactly could be pulling them over and whether another impersonator might be lying in wait. Halifax police chief Dan Kinsella says he understands. Here's part of a conversation he had this morning with the CBC's Portia Clark.

DAN KINSELLA: We have been providing information not only to members of the public on, you know, various things they can do if they feel that the individual they're dealing with may not be a police officer. And more importantly, we're making, you know, constant reminders to our members internally to ensure that in every instance that they are properly identifying themselves and making sure that people really understand that they are dealing with the police. And sometimes when people are stopped by the police, it can be a little bit unnerving and those kind of things. So we make every effort to not only educate the public on what to do, but also internally. And if the public is ever concerned that they may not be dealing with a police officer, they can call us through our administrative line. And we will certainly look into every instance where that may not be the case.

PORTIA CLARK: And what is the expectation for proper identification? What are you telling your officers about doing that?

DAN KINSELLA: Well, certainly if you're a police officer in uniform, it has to be a complete uniform with your, you know, your name attached to the most outer garment that you're wearing. Officers have a badge and a warrant card or an identification card with a picture on it that clearly identifies them. And generally speaking, you know, that is kind of except that they wear a hat, those kind of things. So that's why we have a uniform. But more importantly for officers that may be out interacting with the public in a plainclothes capacity, they are being advised in every instance to make sure that they identify themselves with the proper identification and show that to members of the public and explain so they know who they're dealing with. And then all of our officers also have business cards that they should be leaving with individuals that they interact with.

PORTIA CLARK: The Ontario police are suggesting people wait if they're driving until they're in a well-lit populated area before they pull over. In Britain, people are advised to drive to a maybe a gas station and, you know, drive slowly, put on the hazards maybe. What would happen if someone does that there when they are pulled over?

DAN KINSELLA: Well, part of the education piece internally is to, you know, make sure that our members understand that sometimes the public may not be immediately convinced that they're dealing with the police. So in those instances, we advise the public to put other hazards late, slow down, pull over to the furthest right lane and then make their way to either a well-lit area or a very public space where they feel a little more comfortable before pulling over. And again, they can always call to check on the authenticity of who may be stopping them.

CH: That's Halifax Police Chief Dan Kinsella speaking with the CBC's Portia Clark today.

[Music]

Office Reopening Changes

Guest: Igor Faletski

CH: If you've visited the Vancouver office of the tech company Mobify a few months ago, you have seen people working in an open concept space, shared desks, ping pong, foosball table and depending on the day, maybe even a shared catered group lunch for staff. But if you visit the office today, there would be cobwebs on the foosball table. The 40 person team is working from home and the pandemic is forcing Mobify CEO Igor Faletski to think about how his office space will have to change in the future. We reached Mr. Faletski in Vancouver, British Columbia.

CO: Igor can you picture your employees playing foosball or enjoying catered lunches together at the Mobify office anytime soon?

IGOR FALETSKI: No, it's very hard to imagine that frankly. I think the focus for our team is definitely shifting from how do you have a great culture to how to have a safe workplace. And the safety aspect I think it's ruling foosball, pin pong, and buffet like you said.

CO: If you look at your office space and imagine people coming back to work, how do you see it changing?

IF: It's definitely a gradual process because I think a lot of companies are still figuring out what do we want our office to do in this new post-COVID environment. I think we have a lot more meetings with more space between people -- probably outside, small outdoors place that we typically use for lunch. Now, I think a lot of my meetings will be happening there instead of the inside part of the office in smaller rooms. I think we'll definitely see more people just work from home as a default versus do it occasionally because that's a very effective way to get work done and it's also minimizing commute for team members. I think we'll start with a very gradual return to office and see how to use our facility in a safe way to get more work done and kind of gradually ramp up over time.

CO: It's interesting that the sort of modern office is exactly the opposite of what we're told we need to do. So it's also I guess, about reassuring your employees that you're going to come back to a safe work environment.

IF: Yeah, I think safety is something we keep hearing again and again from our team members. Some have gone as far as saying that we should work from home 100 percent of the time. I think that new balance is going to be really important to find. I still believe it's important to have that face to face connection with your colleagues. I think all of us appreciate this feeling of belonging in a workplace, that need is not going anywhere. But doing that in new ways that don't feel unsafe and don't require people to commute a long way everyday if possible. That's the new normal for us. It's definitely more video calls. Maybe come to office on a couple of days per week versus expect folks to come here three, four, five days a week and definitely giving parents on our team all the flexibility they need because I think they are the ones that are dealing with the most change right now.

CO: And if you have to redesign, if you have to do things differently for those who do come back, are you considering I guess what others are is to look at maybe returning to some kind of a barrier between desks, some are saying plexiglass protectors, sneeze guards I think some have called it or even the office cubicle. Is that something that you could consider?

IF: I think our initial reaction is probably to have more space in between desks. I think if we move them around creatively, we can achieve that in our space. I don't think a lot of companies and employees will want to return to the old cubicle environment. But in some workspaces, I think that plexiglass setup is going to be a really good idea. I think definitely whatever we can do to minimize the safety implications. So we have to do. I think for us it's primarily around how do we do meetings in this new forum and how do we do in-person interactions between teams as well. That's something we're still working figuring out.

CO: And how do you do lunch in the kitchen?

IF: Exactly. I think probably just allowing half the people to come to the kitchen versus what we had before. We have these communal tables where usually see five or six people having lunch together. Now it's probably going to be, you know, two people and then maybe a table that is empty in between something like that. And definitely no serving catered lunches as well. And we just bring our own.

CO: I was thinking, you know, after 9/11, there were dramatic changes in how we travel, what happens at airports, just the movement of people, which initially was just chaotic and headache inducing. Do you think in a different kind of way we're going to have to all adjust to our movements, our mobility, our work environment being quite altered for some time to come?

IF: Absolutely. I think especially for business travel now, there's definitely been a huge pace of change, and I think it's not going back to what it used to be. Like I think having to go and see a lot of partners and our customers quite a bit in now, there's just more acceptance that you can do a video call and maybe have a trip back once a year versus once a quarter. I think that change is here. I think all of us will still want to travel for holidays, for leisure. But I think the business part of it is going to be completely different. And I think something to look forward to is having to travel a bit less and being a bit more efficient. But definitely I think it's going to have a big impact on the travel industry in some way.

CO: So that might save on some business expenses. But I would imagine what's going to cost money is that offices are going to need more space, aren't they? If you're going to spread out, if others are going to build structures to give people some protection, then they're going to pay for that. And in places like Vancouver and Toronto that's expensive, isn't it?

IF: Yeah, absolutely. I think in the first two weeks off of COVID, a lot of thinking was okay maybe companies need less space. And now we're seeing the opposite come back where like you said, there's actually more space per team member that's required. Bigger facilities required for a kitchen, for meeting rooms, for event spaces. So I think it's actually going to accelerate the shift to a healthier office, a healthy building, and maybe also having a mixed use mode where you thought everybody there 9:00 to 5:00 every day. So I think on a longer term it would actually reshape the idea of the office, but not reduce the requirement to have ample space to really have people work safely.

CO: Do you think that companies will make those investments or do you think they'll actually have to be required to do them before they change?

IF: I think it's a very challenging thing to consider in the current economic environment. A lot of companies out there are struggling and cannot operate in this environment. So unless there's support from the government to make this change easier, I think it's going to be a gradual shift. And I think, again, go back to working from home is probably a cheaper way to get with the times and provide the safety to the team member. So I think it's more a gradual shift versus a kind of top-down requirement.

CO: All right. Well, I think people are reimagining their work space once they return or once is returned. Igor it is good to talk to you. Thank you.

IF: Thank you very much. Bye.

CH: Igor Faletski is the CEO and co-founder of Mobify. We reached him in Vancouver.

[Music]

From Our Archives: Apple Pencil

CH: When we were kids, it was the buzz of the schoolyard on the first day of school. Who had the latest coolest pencils? Course by the end of the day, we all realized that we all had the same pencils: Orange number two HB's. It's not the latest or the coolest, but the best or the only anyway. David Rees liked it that way. He is an artisanal pencil sharpener and the author of the groundbreaking book How to Sharpen Pencils. He's a purist, an advocate of the old classic ways. So in 2015, when Apple introduced its so-called Apple Pencil, actually a graphite free stylus for use with the iPod, Mr. Rees had a lot to say, which can be boiled down to one word "no." From our archives, here's Carol's conversation with David Rees about the Apple Pencil, which first aired in September of 2015.

CO: David, what was your reaction when you heard about Apple's new product?

DAVID REES: My brother texted me and he just said Apple Pencil. And I wrote back and said, What are you talking about? I thought he was trying to get my goat make me upset. And then I went on the Internet and saw that Apple had introduced some kind of new fancy pencil. And everyone was going crazy about it because it was a product made by Apple, which means that by law, everyone on the Internet has to fall to their needs and worship it, unquestionably. So I got a little defensive about the value of good old fashioned wooden pencils, which I believe are as well designed and ingeniously engineered as anything that Apple has ever made.

CO: There's one of your tweets from yesterday, just after the announcement, you wrote, "I own the pencil space. Step back Apple unless you want a full on war."

DAVID REES: Yeah.

CO: You were hot under the collar on that one.

DAVID REES: You know, I think there's two reasons. One is the whole point of my pencil sharpening business has been to remind people about how beautiful and elegant the simple pencil is, even if we take it for granted. I mean, we're able to take it for granted precisely because it is such an ingenious piece of engineering and it's so affordable and so efficient and so effective. And so I would hate for a good old fashioned pencils, which represent 500 years of ingenuity and product design and materials science to be overshadowed by some new gizmo made by exploited wage slaves in China. And the other thing is, I guess I can say this, Apple just kind of gives me the creeps. The company gives me the creeps. The cult of personality around Steve Jobs gives me the creeps. And I feel like anyone who live streams an Apple product announcements should probably be put in jail.

CO: But the chances are that this Apple pencil is not going to put your wooden pencils out of business. I mean isn't there room enough for both?

DAVID REES: I would prefer and you can send this directly to whoever runs Apple these days that they not use the word 'pencil' to describe their product because they are reappropriated ing and thereby demeaning a known object that deserves to be celebrated on its own terms rather than being corralled into the service of Apple's product design and creepy inhuman aesthetic.

CO: But I mean, should they call it a stylus or what do you think?

DAVID REES: Yeah they should call it a stylus. Just own it. Just called a stylus. Don't use the word pencil. It's not a pencil.

CO: Why do you think Steve Jobs is so opposed to Apple ever coming up with a pencil?

DAVID REES: I don't know, because it would be one more thing for loathsome, filthy humans to have to put their hands on that would mar his beautiful, flawless product design. I don't know.

CO: Wow. In fact, I think he said at some point that he said as soon as you have a stylus, you're dead.

DAVID REES: [Laughter] You know what? I don't know. Steve Jobs is an intriguing person and he was certainly very successful, but I'm not sure he and I would have had much to talk about.

CO: How is the artisanal pencil sharpening business going?

DAVID REES: Well, I have to tell you, there has been a catastrophic collapse in the market that predates Apple's announcement. I think, gosh, how long have I been doing it now? Five years. And I think after the initial wave of curiosity and media attention died down business ground, not to a halt, but to a limp. So I still got a couple orders a week. I have about 15 orders that I need to get to. I was busy filming a TV show. So I have to get back to these clients who are expecting their pencils.

CO: And how long does it take? How do you do a pencil?

DAVID REES: Well, I have a whole bunch of sharpeners, you know, and a whole bunch of sharpening techniques. I have hand-crank sharpeners and single blade pocket sharpeners and you know, good old fashioned straight blades and knives and sandpipers and sanding blocks. So if the customer has a specific request I can use, you know, I have the most expensive hand-crank sharpener in the world, the El Casco sharpener, or I can use a knife. You know, it depends on what types of pencil shavings they want. There's a variety of factors that go into what I choose to deploy when I'm sharpening a pencil.

CO: But you'd think that this would be a growth industry or a growth artisanal industry -- you'd sharpen a pencil, someone uses it, it's dull you've got to sharpen it again. .

DAVID REES: Well, that was the original business model. And it always breaks my heart in interviews when someone brings that up as a possibility because that's what I expected would happen. Thought I would make like 200 dollars over the life of a pencil. But obviously most people don't buy them from me sharpened in order to use them. It comes in a display tube with a certificate. So I think most people just keep it as like a decoration or a conversation piece or a conversation ender.

CO: Well, it looks like, though, if people buy the Apple pencil, they're going to be using it. They're not going to be putting it on display. So this is something that is a tool, is it not?

DAVID REES: Honestly, what does it do? [Laughs]

CO: It connects with keyboard. It connects with the screen, I believe. And you can do art. You can draw. You can use it as you would a pencil.

DAVID REES: All right. How much does it cost?

CO: Ooo...$99 U.S..

DAVID REES: All right. I can beat that price. Have people get in touch with me.

CO: Well, you're going on the record, you're never going to have an Apple pencil, right?

DAVID REES: You know, I really put off having a smartphone until a couple of years ago. And, you know, it's it's a great tool to be addicted to and to make your life more miserable while it makes it also more convenient. I can't imagine a situation in which I would want to have an Apple pencil, mainly because if I want to doodle or something, I have about twenty thousand half sharpened pencil lying around my house. I just don't think I would reach for an Apple pencil instead of one of those. I will say I do have a Wakeham tablet, which is the old school version of I guess an Apple pencil which has a stylus that connects to a pad or a tablet that then connects to your computer via USB port. And I've had this thing since like 1977. It's really beat up, but it still works and I still use it to make graphics and stuff.

CO: Well, there you go. A slippery slope.

DAVID REES: It is a slippery slope. It's a dangerous game. And we're on the razor's edge between death and desire. But that's the nature of styluses and pencils.

CO: David, good to talk to you. Thanks.

DAVID REES: Thank you.

CH: From our archives, Carol speaking with humorist, TV host and artisanal pencil sharpener David Rees in 2015. And you can find more on that story on the As It Happens website: cbc.ca/aih.

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May 06, 2020 Episode Transcript

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