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The AIH Transcript for April 29, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CO: A mighty heart indeed. Movie lovers around the world are mourning the death of the actor Irrfan Khan today. His dozens of films included blockbusters, comic book movies and the adaptation of a Canadian classic.

CO: Retrieved from our archives: When the World Cup was stolen in 1966, an amateur detective named Pickles found it before any police officer could...Proving once and for all, the hound is quicker than the guy.

CH: As It Happens, the Wednesday edition. Radio that appreciates a person who can ink on their feet.

Remdesivir trial

Guest: Tim Lahey

CH: Since the COVID-19 pandemic began, scientists and doctors have been struggling to find an effective treatment. Now, finally, there is some evidence there may be a drug that helps. Today, White House health advisor Dr. Anthony Fauci announced that the drug remdesivir had shown promise, in a study by the U.S. National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease. Here is part of Dr. Fauci said.

[sc]

ANTHONY FAUCI: That the data shows that remdesivir has a clear-cut, significant positive effect in diminishing the time to recovery. This is really quite important for a number of reasons, and I'll give you the data. It's highly significant, if you look at the time to recovery being shorter in the remdesivir arm, it was 11 days compared to 15 days. So that's something that, although with 31 per cent improvement, doesn't seem like a knockout 100 per cent, it is a very important proof of concept. Because what it hass proven is that a drug can block this virus.

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CH: Dr. Anthony Fauci speaking earlier today. Dr. Tim Lahey is an infectious disease specialist and ethicist at the University of Vermont Medical Center. We reached him in Charlotte, Vermont.

CO: Dr. Lahey, from your point of view, how big a deal is this news about this drug, remdesivir?

TIM LAHEY: I think it's a big deal. It's the first time that we've really had evidence that something is likely to work against this virus.

CO: Dr. Fauci called it highly significant. What would you say to that?

TL: I think he's right on the money. Previously, we've had hints that remdesivir was making a difference in an animal or people who got this, but not compared to placebo. Seemed to get better. But all of that sort of left room for doubt. Here we have human patients, some who got remdesivir, some who got placebo, and clearly, there's a statistically significant difference for the people who got the drug. It's the first time we've had something that looks like it works.

CO: This study was not completed yet. A lot of questions for many people about what it really says. What questions do you still have about this drug and about this study?

TL: Yeah. So this raises a really important caveat. This isn't a study that's gone all the way to completion, but instead just a interim check by the people who are monitoring for subject's safety. And they are saying that these endpoints that they're watching for, whether the patients, how fast they get better and how likely they are to die, looked better at an early examination. You could imagine that over time, that difference between placebo and drug recipients could go away or or maybe some safety concern can come up. So we really have to let the study complete and really get the full information before we can completely take these results to the bank. But I do think that there is cause for, you know, opening up, maybe not an expensive bottle of champagne, but perhaps a beer and celebrating this preliminary result.

CO: [dry chuckle] So before we do that, what exactly does this drug do? What do you what do you see it accomplishing? This is not a cure for COVID-19. So what is it actually accomplishing?

TL: That's right. So this is a drug that is being given to people who are hospitalized with COVID-19, so people who are relatively sick. And it's helping them get better, faster. And there's even some early signal it could protect them from death, although it's too early to tell for sure. And we don't know if this will help people who are exposed stop from getting sick entirely. All we know is that it gives us one tool to help support people who are tenuous and in the hospital and need some treatment.

CO: I don’t need to tell you that this is any kind of treatment for this disease is of monumental importance, isn't it? So how difficult is it to look objectively, to have a clear scientific eye on something like this when there's so much pressure to find a cure?

TL: I think we've all been dismayed by some of the pseudoscience that's been out there in the COVID-19 epidemic. And I think that's all driven by hope and desperation. This study really for me is the first time that we can put our hopes on a scientific signal of benefit. But, you know, we want to make sure that we temper that enthusiasm even. And recognize that this is a study that partway completed. And so it's good news, but we're all still waiting to get all of the details before we completely start jumping up and down and yelling hooray.

CO: As I think you know, there's another study of remdesivir out of China that was done in China with a limited group and it was published in The Lancet today. And in that study, it showed no significant value to the drug for treatment of severely ill patients with COVID-19. What does that say to you?

TL: Yeah, I think that's a really important finding for us to put next to this one out of Nebraska. There are different ways you can understand why two studies would show slightly different results. Maybe the studies were done in slightly different patient population. You know, we know who each of those studies were trying to recruit, but exactly, you know, which people were enrolled. And maybe were sicker in Nebraska study and not as sick in the study that has just published in The Lancet, and maybe that explains why the findings are different. The other way you can explain it is that they may have looked at slightly different endpoints. So maybe the way they measured improvement, maybe the timing through which they administer the drug is a little bit different. So that's why I'm really eager to see the details of the Nebraska study that have not yet been published and put them right up next to this one in The Lancet and say, okay, really, what's the answer that's in the straight here?

CO: And will there be the breathing room for that? I mean I was watching Dr. Fauci today in the United States, in Washington, in a room with President Trump, clearly so much is riding on this being something that they can put out there as being the beginning of the end. And so will there be the room to actually explore these possibilities and to have the doubt that you're describing?

TL: We have to. You know, I think the real tragedy would be to add to the death toll of COVID-19, on top of that, a layer of shoddy science. You know, really we have to temper our enthusiasm enough so that we make sure we get the science right. And that doesn't mean that we can't do things like expand compassionate access to drugs, or think about how do we enrol more people in more studies of this if it looks promising. But we need to make sure that we don't let our desperation for a quick fix stop our critical thinking or make us not let the scientists do their jobs.

CO: And so what happens with remdesivir now?

TL: You know, first, the Nebraska investigators have to complete their study. I would guess that Gilead is also going to try to figure out who else should we study the drug in? Are there other patient populations that they could move the drug into in a study, thereby increasing the number of people who have access. I'm excited to hear those next words. Because I think we're all hoping we actually have a new tool we can use in the clinic.

CO: All right. And Gilead being the name of the company that is developing this drug, right?

TL: That's right.

CO: All right, Dr. Lahey, we will leave it there. Of course, we’ll be watching the progress in this. And thanks for speaking with us.

TL: Yeah. Thanks a lot. It's a pleasure.

CO: Bye-bye.

TL: Bye.

CH: Dr. Tim Lahey is an infectious disease specialist and ethicist at the University of Vermont Medical Center. He was in Charlotte, Vermont. You can find that interview on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Very sad piano]

Tattoo a day

Guest: Chris Woodhead

CH: It's been said that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But for Chris Woodhead, it may be in the skin of the beholder, instead. Mr. Woodhead is a tattoo artist. He's been out of work ever since he closed the doors of his tattoo shop in East London, England, last month, because of the pandemic. But he hasn't stopped working. For the past six weeks, Mr. Woodhead has been designing and inking one tattoo a day — using his own body as the canvas. We reached Chris Woodhead in East London.

CO: Chris, I know you are now on day 43 of your tattoos. What did you give yourself today?

CHRIS WOODHEAD: So I tattooed a cowboy hat on myself today. Me and my wife watched Toy Story this afternoon. And it inspired me tattoo a cowboy hat on myself for Woody.

CO: [dry chuckle] Okay, so now are you still finding space. I mean, how many tattoos do you actually have on your body at this point?

CW: So I probably have above the thousand mark. Yeah, I've been getting tattooed for around 15 years. So my biggest concern is running out of space more than anything.

CO: Okay. What are some of the others that you have given yourself over this month-and-a-half?

CW: So some to note are I did the COVID virus that's kind of going around, you know, the little kind of flu virus. I did one of those on my leg. My absolute favourite is the NHS logo on my chest, which is the National Health Service in our country, which have been the absolute backbone of helping us try our best to get through these times. Other than that, silly drawings and anything that I want to draw up really, I guess.

CO: You tattooed a little message on the sole of your foot. What does that say?

CW: Yeah, absolutely. It says, “when will it end?” [CO cuckles] I’m thinking about writing on the other foot, “see you in hell.” I'm not sure [both chuckle] because I don't know when will it end?

CO: Well, I was going to say, I mean, when you started this, did you expect that you were going to have to find this much space for the tattoo a day?

CW: No, I mean, I don't think anybody really started this lockdown period expecting to go further than kind of people said three months. Three months seemed like a long time. But I didn't expect to go that far. And now 43 days in is even, I guess, further than I expected. But I'm willing to carry on, you know?

CO: What are some of the tattoos? I'm looking at some of the pictures, [chuckling] there's a lot going on there on your body. So what are the ones that you like the most?

CW: I mean, everybody has their own experience with tattooing, whether it be something really sentimental or whether it's something slightly ridiculous or whether it's something just for our aesthetics. For me personally, my body's evolved so much in the last 15 years. My favourite tattoo is usually the last one I got, which is the cowboy hat. You know, like I try and keep it fresh. I try and keep it new. I try and keep it clean. So I don't regret any and I don't hate any. And, yeah, I enjoy everything that's on my body, I guess.

CO: Okay. Well, what inspired you to do a tattoo of Tiger King?

CW: Oh, I mean, this story was so gripping and so insane and crazy and fantastic. But the thing that really enticed me to it was the fact that the whole world seemed to be watching the same TV show whilest they were locked in their house. And all we had was “Tiger King”, you know like it was so powerful and so important. And maybe even more than the story, it just felt like everybody was in solidarity, in lockdown, watching Joe Exotic. [CO chuckles and CW laughs maniacly] Like, it was crazy.

CO: And so you sat down the next day and put that into ink on your body?

CW: Absolutely. But I had to watch the last episode of it. You know, because he could have gone either way, could have been really horrendously bad at the last episode. So I remember speaking to my wife [CO chuckles] and we were like, we need to watch the last one just to make sure he doesn't do something really awful, you know? So then I watch the last one. I was like, all right, yeah, I'll tattoo him on my leg. I'm cool with that! [both chuckling]

CO: Now but you're doing this to yourself? You're not using electricity on this, right? You're using just a real old-fashioned needle?

CW: Yeah, absolutely, it's needle and ink. It's as old school as it gets. You know, it could be done in prison. It could be done in the woods. It could be done in Alaska. It could be done anywhere, you know? I think there's something really beautiful about not relying on anything other than just the application of needle and ink. It's kind of like a quill and ink almost.

CO: Okay. Now, obviously, as difficult as it is to go through this stretch of time, it's pretty dull. I mean, you watched “Toy Story”, [chuckling] that was the highlight of the day. So are you maybe going to have more excitement in your life and maybe regret that you don't have room to make a record of that later on?

CW: [sniffs] I mean, potentially. But I've always kind of had not necessarily an end goal, but I've always kind of wanted to fill space. I think once you start building tattoos on your body, you just see the negative space rather than the filled-in space in a sense. And so I don't know, I enjoy filling the space. So my wife is pregnant. We've got a little boy on the way. So I'm definitely saving some space to write my son's name on me some way.

CO: [chuckling] Good thing!

CW: But other than that, I don't see what's more important than just tattooing myself every day, you know?

CO: Chris, it's good to talk to you. Thanks.

CW: Thank you very much. It's been my pleasure.

CO: Goodnight.

CW: Goodnight.

CH: Chris Woodhead is a tattoo artist, who's giving himself a tattoo every day during self-quarantine. We reached him in East London, England. For more on this story, and to see pictures of his tattoos, visit our website at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Music: World music]

Glen Murray Green Party

CH: There is a new contestant in the race to replace Elizabeth May. Today, Glen Murray announced that he's running for the leadership of Canada's Green Party. The former Winnipeg mayor and Ontario Liberal MPP, who also served as Ontario's environment minister, says Canada can use the current pandemic as a lesson about where to go in the future. But today's announcement had our colleague David Thurton asking Mr. Murray why now?

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DAVID THURTON: A couple of months ago, I asked if you were running. And you texted me back, and you said flat out, no. No, I wasn't.

GLEN MURRAY: Because that was very true. I mean, if I had actually talked to you, I might have even said something even stronger [chuckling]. But I'll tell you. So I was having a conversation with a prominent member of the Green Party that my partner overheard. And that was not long after I texted you, probably even days after. And he said I just heard you talking, what were you talking about? And I said, don’t worry about it. It was just one of my close friends in the Green Party, trying to convince me that I should get into the race for the leadership, and making the case for it. And I said, but don't worry about it. I'm not not going to do it. And Rick looked at me and said, why? And I said, well, you know, we had sort of decided that it was time to go do other things in our lives. And I feel I owe it to you, after being my partner for 26 years, that we're going to have some time with me out of politics. He said, look, I understand that. I would really like that, too. But, you know, he's a nurse, he's always on the frontline of the COVID crisis right now. And he said you got to do this. He just said, you've just got to admit that you've been able to do on the environment and the economy in your lifetime. The Green Party really needs someone with your experience and the kinds of things that you've done. And I think you should really seriously think about it. I think it's a good decision. And I got to tell you, that really surprised me. And I thought about it. And then the COVID pandemic hit. And I lived through the AIDS epidemic, and I lost 43 friends. That was when I started getting interested in environmentalism and global crises. And I just... It was such a reminder of how fragile our planet is, how vulnerable human health and the ecosystems are that I thought, okay, yeah, we're not tracking right now in Canada to anywhere near the levels of pollution reduction and GHG reduction to avoid the climate crisis. I think it's time to step up and get back in the game.

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CH: That's Green Party leadership candidate Glen Murray speaking with the CBCs David Thurton.

[Music: Upbeat instrumental]

Picklesfest

CH: In March, 1966, someone stole the World Cup from a display case in London. And everyone freaked out. And they kept freaking out through the ensuing ransom demand, and police investigation, and further drama. But in the midst of all the kerfuffle, the true hero of the story remained unruffled. Even oblivious. And that amateur detective solved the case, despite being completely untrained. In investigation, I mean. Pickles was definitely trained: he would never have peed in the house. Yes, a week after the World Cup was stolen, Pickles — a black-and-white collie — found it. His discovery made him a national and international hero. But then, as surely as Pickles immediately forgot what he'd done, he was forgotten. well, in 2013, the First Annual Picklesfest in South London set out to fix that. And in March of that year, Carol spoke with Richard Jones — considered the world's foremost Pickles-ologist. Here's their conversation, from our archives.

RJ: He was a hero. And he was particularly famous in Brazil because Brazil had won the last two World Cups. And if they had won the 1966 World Cup, which they didn't. They would have won the trophy outright. They would have kept the trophy. So the Brazilian people adopted him as a national hero, but rather shamefully, in his own country, Pickles wasn't awarded such honours. He was awarded a medal by the Canine Defence League. But Joe Meirs, the chairman of the Football Association, a very wealthy man in his own right, he not only denied Pickles his reward money, he claimed it for himself.

CO: Oie!

RJ: He said the dog can't have the reward money, But I, as chairman of the FA, are claiming the reward money because of all the work I did to try and find the World Cup, the insurers refused to pay him. And tragically, Meir's died a few weeks later of a heart attack, before England won the World Cup.

CO: But didn't Pickles become a movie star?

RJ: No, not as such. No one really knows what happened to Pickles. He was very much, you know, he was he was feted on television and he seemed to love the attention. He was a guest of honour at the National Sporting Club at the Café Royale, and they raised a thousand pounds for him. And eventually, his owner was also given the reward money.

CO: What happened to Pickles?

RJ: Well, we tried to find out what happened to Pickles? I mean, obviously, Pickles died. But there's no memorial. After his time in the media spotlight, he went back to leading a normal dog life. And there's no record of what happened to him. So there is no plaque, there's no memorial. There's no record of what happened to Pickles after the events, really.

CO: Pickles now plays a role in Picklesfest. Well, not that he’s around to actually play a role, but there is a paper mâché version of Pickles. What's he going to do?

RJ: Well, on the 20th of this month, of March, there will be a ceremony at the spot where Pickles found the World Cup. This rather magnificent paper mâché replica of Pickles is going to be unveiled in the presence of the lord mayor of Croydon, I believe. And there will be various football luminaries there. And we see this very much as being the start of a campaign. And on the 50th anniversary of Pickles finding the World Cup in 2016, we will hopefully be able to commemorate Pickles and his role in world football with some sort of permanent memorial. So we hope that paper mâché replica of Pickles will one day be maybe a bronze statue standing outside Wembley Stadium, where it rightfully belongs.

CO: So Pickles is finally going to get his due?

RJ: We hope so.

CO: Well, Mr. Jones, it’s a amazing story, and I appreciate you telling it to us.

RJ: Thank you very much.

CO: Bye-bye.

RJ: Bye-bye.

[/sc]

CH: From our archives, Carol speaking with Pickles-ologist Richard Jones — on March 6th, 2013.

[Music: Folk guitar]

Part two: La Loche follow, Irrfan Khan dies

La Loche follow

Guest: Georgina Jolibois

CH: Saskatchewan's government says the province is ready to carefully ease out of its coronavirus lockdown. But the town of La Loche and the Clearwater River Dene First Nation are on alert. The twin communities in Saskatchewan's northwest are home to more than a third of the province's infections. One man is dead, and health officials warn the number of people affected is likely to grow. Georgina Jolibois is a former mayor of La Loche and represented the area in the House of Commons for the NDP. We reached Ms. Jolibois this afternoon in La Loche.

CO: Georgina, what is the latest you've heard about the COVID-19 outbreak in your community?

GORGINA JOLIBOIS: The recent update that we have had is that there are 35 confirmed cases. And how they've done is they've broked the numbers up. In the municipality of La Loche, 31 confirmed cases, and four from Clearwater River Dene First Nation. We’re community side by side. And the great news yesterday that we have received is that there’s three recoveries.

CO: But when you say 35 cases, active cases, that represents about more than a third of all the cases in the province, is it not?

GJ: Exactly. La Loche does have an outbreak. How it started, how many days ago now, it's over a week, it’s going on two weeks. The positive case is a worker coming back from Fort McMurray, Alberta region. And that's how it all started.

CO: You have a family member who has fallen ill with COVID-19. Is she among those who is recovering?

GJ: No, not the full recovery, no. She is still recovering. She has gone through several episodes from the majority of symptoms listed, up to fever. And she is a strong young woman and fighter. And today, she has a good day. She's feeling a little bit better, she said.

CO: And what resources do you have within your family, within other families, to deal with this outbreak?

GJ: In the community, there is, and I'm sure it's the same in all of the northern Saskatchewan, provincial government provides assistance to the municipality. And then the reserve would be the federal government. The resources level within the community, It's not just here, again throughout the whole north, about the neglect, not only the provincial government, but the federal government, the neglect that we've had given to the community. And that's surfacing the gap that exists. Currently at the community level, the organization, the pandemic team is organizing and planning and playing catch up. Even simple as personal protective services — equipment, Sorry — is lacking. And the planning is taking a while. Personally, at the family level, for me and myself and my niece, who live together, we're doing well. My mum and dad, in their home, they’re doing well. But other family members, because they do have a huge family and it's a community of families and relatedness, ee are doing what we can to get through.

CO: What are the conditions in La Loche do you think that contributed to having this spread so quickly and so openly?

GJ: A number of things. As Aboriginal people, famly is important to us. And we come together. But in many homes, people live together. Housing has always been an issue over the years, and continues to be an issue. And I am sure it's the same in other northern communities is that more than one person will live in a home. So, therefore, it's easy for the disease to spread. In one household, I do know that four people had tested positive in one household. And so that it is easy for this spread to occur.

CO: Numbers of people have pointed out that there seems to be two provinces in Saskatchewan. That as we hear Premier Scott Mo announce cautiously opening Saskatchewan, that things are improving, that they think they're past the COVID-19 crisis. And then to hear what's going on in your community, where just under 3,000 people, and you have the lion's share of the cases. So what does that say to you about how the province looks at your community?

GJ: It is very disheartening. You can tell by talking about reopening Saskatchewan while there's an epidemic, an outbreak is occurring on the northwest side of the province. And the disconnection, the premier says we're in this together. But yet, he issued a public health order to close down that highway travel to go to southern Saskatchewan. And one thing he is forgetting how the outbreak started, where the case came from, workers in Fort Murray. Workers who work in Fort McMurry are from all over Canada. These workers come home, and do they self-isolate, or are they carrying the disease? And so I'm a Canadian. I live in Saskatchewan. And the premier is sending a message that we're not important to him in the north. By closing, it is just really a colonial approach to how he's handling this whole process.

CO: Public health officials have flown in a machine to speed up testing and contact tracing, and they're training people to do those tests. Is that going to perhaps turn a corner for La Loche?

GJ: It is anticipated. Not just for myself, but others in the community. An increase in cases will occur because, yes, they probably have flown it in And, yes, they’re in the setting up process. And the contact tracing is taking with every positive case will occur. And testing that is currently there playing catch up. And so for the next week or two or three, there will be an increase in cases. If it's happening here, will it happen in other places where they have positive cases? And so that is a concern, should be a concern, in all major centres, and not only in the north but in Saskatchewan.

CO: Georgina, we'll leave it there. Please stay healthy. And I'm glad your family member is on the mend. And thank you for speaking with us.

GJ: Thank you so much. I appreciate this.

CO: Bye.

GJ: Bye-bye.

CH: Georgina Jolibois is a former mayor of La Loche, Saskatchewan. That's where we reached her. The Saskatchewan government released its latest numbers shortly after we spoke with Ms. Jolibois. They're reporting 17 new cases in the province. Eleven are in the La Loche. And a second person from the area has died.

[Music: More sad piano]

FOA: Julian Fantino

CH: Julian Fantino is turning over a new leaf. Toronto's former chief of police, and former federal minister, has resigned as a board member of Aleafia, the medical cannabis company he helped start. Mr. Fantino didn't explain why he was leaving. But in November 2017, on As It Happens, he spoke with Carol about why he was getting involved. And naturally, Carol had a lot of questions. Because as a former top cop, Mr. Fantino had put people in jail for marijuana possession. And as a minister in Stephen Harper's government, he opposed legalization. From our archives, here's an excerpt from that interview.

[sc]

JF: The health network has been started because of our motivation to help people. They can be helped in a different way than with opiates.

CO: And you make… sir, let’s just it clear, you will make money from this, right? This is for profit.

JF: We are a private company, funded mainly by family and friends. And we're expecting at some point in time that it would be a profitable endeavor. It's a business no doubt. We pay taxes, we're registered, we're running it as a business and we'll see where that takes us.

CO: Now but you can see why people's eyebrows are being raised. As chief of police in Toronto, you were very strict about drugs. You put people in jail. There are young people who are in jail because of people like you, You don't see any contradiction between your past life as chief of police?

JF: Not at all. Not at all. What I did in law enforcement. I ascribed and I followed my oath of office — the laws of the land. But you know what? You're making a huge mistake if you are to believe that I put everyone in jail that I came across that had the marijuana. I gave all kinds of people all kinds of breaks. But we're talking about a different issue. We're talking about me today as a responsible, educated, informed citizen, who's had the experience of knowing the benefits of medical cannabis for people who are suffering.

CO: But you knew this when you were in government — when you were with the Harper government. You said you learned from the vets that they needed this medication. That it was good for them. And yet, you were part of a government that passed a law that put mandatory minimum sentences on people for having as few as six plants. That people went to jail — went to prison — with six-month sentences. The courts had to give them because of a law you passed, even as you knew, according to what you've told us, that this was something of benefit to vets.

JF: Well, I can tell you right now that we're talking about medical cannabis.

CO: It was that time too. If someone was going plans for medical reasons when you passed bill C-10 that wasn't an argument. They would go to jail if they had six plant. Is that not true, Mr. Fantino?

JF: All I'm telling you is that what we did was to help veterans. And now, we're helping others who are benefiting greatly from the medical cannabis availability. And the response from those people who are coming through our clinic is absolutely invigorating.

[/sc]

CH: From November 2017, that was former Toronto police chief and Conservative federal minister Julian Fantino, speaking with Carol about his business venture: joining a medical cannabis company. This week, Mr. Fantino announced he would be stepping down from Aleafia.

[Music: Ambient]

Irrfan Khan dies

Guest: Aseem Chhabra

CH: Irrfan Khan was a Bollywood star. But he also bucked a lot of Bollywood trends — and made a name for himself in Hollywood too, with roles in Slumdog Millionaire, Life of Pi, Jurassic World and other Western blockbusters. Mr. Khan died this morning after a two-year battle with cancer. He was 53 years old. In 2010 he spoke with Al Jazeera about why it was so essential for him to have a foot in Mumbai and one in L.A..

CO: Aseem, I know you have been busy covering the death of Irrfan Khan all day long. But how are you feeling about it personally?

ASEEM CHHABRA: You know, it's interesting because you don't get a chance to mourn as such. But later towards the afternoon-evening, when I'd finished my two writing assignments, know, I went on Twitter and just saw the collective mourning. He was just so well-loved. And, you know, it was not just, you know, from the film industry people or critics and journalists, regular people who loved watching films. I mean, everyone's been really affected and impacted. And, you know, watching that collective mourning really emotionally affected me also. It is really sad.

CO: Yeah. And as you point out, for so many, because as he was saying in that clip that we played, he had a foot in two very, very large worlds of film, one in Mumbai, the other in Hollywood.

AC: Yes.

CO: That he took on these two. And he did so well in both, not just a little bit good in one, and you know, successful in the other. He was an extraordinary talent with such a range, wasn't he?

AC: No, no, that's absolutely true. He actually acted in a couple of very, very big Hollywood productions. Jurassic Park, I think, made a combined total, earned combined total, of one-point-seven billion dollars, which immediately makes Irrfan the most successful Indian actor acting in Hollywood films, really. And he had to sometimes even give up some projects in Hollywood, which was really difficult for him. He gave up acting in Ridley Scott's Martian because there was a film he was doing, a small romantic love story in India. And then he was offered Interstellar by Christopher Nolan at the same time he was supposed to The Lunchbox in India. So sometimes he had to make these tough choices. And he often selected smaller projects in India, which got him a lot of acclaim also.

CO: Yeah, I know that it was for, and not one of the big blockbusters, a lesser-known Hollywood movie called The Namesake that your first sort of encounter with Irrfan Khan came from your seeing that film. What can you tell us about that?

AC: So, you know, I lived in New York for 35 years. And in 2006, in late September 2006, I had already seen the film early September at the film festival in Colorado. And late September. I was walking to the subway station. I lived in Queens, part of New York, about to catch the subway to go to work, when my phone rang. And I took the call and he said, hello, can I speak to Aseem Chhabra? And I said, yes. And then he said in Hindi, he said, I am Irrfan Khan speaking. And, you know, the fanboy in me just jumped hoops. [both chuckle] I was like, Irrfan Khan’s calling me! I'm just like a regular film journalist living in New York. But he had read my article on Namesake, and he had not seen the film yet. So he asked me what was the film like? And I told him, I said, you made me cry. It was that beautiful, so. [bright chuckle]

CO: What was he like, as a person, not as a star? We know how he was. What was he like as a person?

AC: Very approachable, very down to earth. He came from a very humble middle-class background. And it's true, you know, as time went by, he started earning a lot of money in Hollywood especially. And even in India. And he was living very well. And, you know, the clothes he wore and everything else. But often these movie stars are nice to journalists, but you can tell also whether, you know, how genuine the person is. And he, you know, loved to have conversations with you, which is very rare, in India at least.

CO: There was a there's a story that we know that his his mother died just three days before he did.

AC: Yes.

CO: And he wasn't able to attend that funeral. But he said, apparently, his last words were, Amma has come to take me. My mother has come to take me. What does that say to you about the man?

AC: You know, he was very close to his mother. And he left home to join the National School of Drama in the mid-80s when his father had passed away. And his mother expected him to come back and take up a job as a professor of something in the college. But he wanted to become an actor. And once he left home, I mean, of course, he went back to visit, but he never went back to settle there. And I think his mother regretted that, you know, because Indian parents tend to count on the oldest child, especially if it’s a son. So he was very close to her. And it's such a bizarre coincidence, really. Very, very interesting how the universe works. They both passed away, you know, a gap of three or four days only.

CO: Is there a particular memory that you're cherishing about Irrfan Khan today?

AC: Well, the other thing that I remember. The first time that I met Irrfan actually was in 2007. He had come to promote A Mighty Heart in New York City, which was, you know, the story about Danny Boyle, the kidnapping and the murder of The Wall Street Journal correspondent in South Asia. And Angelina Jolie is in the film. She plays Mariane Pearl. And there were other actors also. And so in between the interviews, Irrfan pulled me aside. And he asked me, he said, is anything happening? In Hindi he asked me. And I immediately understood what he wanted to know was. Are people noticing him? And, you know, what was fascinating was that Namesake just sort of was ending its run in theatre. It was still running in a few theatres. And The Mighty Heart was opening that week. And I said to him, I said, listen, I don't know any Hollywood star who has two films running at the same time in theatres in New York City. And so definitely something big is happening with you. But, you know, I realize that he's an actor. And all actors tend to be insecure. And he really it's not like he wanted to become famous, but he wanted more. He wanted more work. He wanted more challenge. And that was a great quality in him. You know, he would get bored doing similar kind of films again and again.

CO: Aseem, we’ll leave it there. I could ask you a lot more about him. What a fascinating man, and great talent. And thank you for speaking with us about your friend.

AC: Thank you so much. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Thank you, yeah.

CO: Bye.

CH: Aseem Chhabra is a biographer of the late actor Irrfan Khan. We reached him in New Delhi.

[Music: Instrumental]

Jeopardy interruption

CH: On Monday night, "Jeopardy!" contestant Sarah Jett Rayburn made history. But before she did that, she got history terribly wrong.

SARAH JETT RAYBURN: Who is Chaka Khan?

AT: No, Matt?

MATT: Who is Shaka Zulu?

[/sc]

CH: [chuckling] Yikes. It's hard to recover when you mistake a Grammy-award-winning singer for a Zulu warrior leader from the 1800s. Most of us would have curled up into a ball and listened to some Chaka Khan power ballads to get over a gaffe like that. But not Ms. Rayburn. She kept going, and somehow managed to top that embarrassing moment with this historic — and very awkward — exchange with host Alex Trebek in the Final "Jeopardy!" round. The clue was: "Before they were photographed together in 1862, Lincoln wryly noted this general 'should have no problem' sitting still for it." Unquote.

[sc]

[Music: Final Jeopardy theme]

AT: Lincoln had trouble getting this general to attack Lee, and the general had the slows about him. All right. We'll go to Lauren first. She had eighty-seven hundred. Her response was Sherman. No, it wouldn't be Sherman. He was a mover and shaker. It'll cost you fifty-seven-oh-one. That drops you to twenty-nine-ninety-nine. Let's go to Matt. He had ninety-eight hundred. He wrote down a question mark. It looks like he was going for Sherman also. Incorrect. It'll cost you any everything but two dollars. Now to our champion, Sarah Jett Rayburn, fourteen-thousand-four-hundred going in, and she wrote down, who is Grant? No..

SJR: McClellan maybe?

AT: Yes!

SJR: I wasn't sure. I second-guessed myself on that one. I do that a lot. Sorry, I shouldn't be talking now.

AT: No, that's fine. You can talk now. There are people who are watching who are saying, why didn't she put down McClellan? And you just explained it was your second choice.

SJR: I was afraid that, you know, Grant seemed safer. You know what I mean? And I thought, well, anyway, I'm sorry. [lots of laughter all around]

AT Ladies and gentlemen, you have just witnessed something that never happens on our program, an explanation of why the contestant wrote down what they did. [lots of laughing] Let's see how much it's going to cost our champion. Six thousand. Hey, that leaves her with eighty-four hundred. [clapping] She remains champ. You now have a two-day total of thirty-nine-thousand-four-hundred. We'll get more explanations from her tomorrow [chuckling]. See you then.

[/sc]

CH: That was Jeopardy! contestant Sarah Jett Rayburn interrupting Alex Trebek on Monday night, to explain her Final Jeopardy! answer.

[Music: Plodding instrumental]

Part three: Norway murder case, Bonavista tourists, Remembering Claude Lafortune

Norway murder case

Guest: Jan Furuly

CH: You might remember the story. Last year, we told you about a high-profile kidnapping case in Norway. Anne-Elisabeth Hagen — the wife of wealthy businessman Tom Hagen — was reportedly taken from her home. Kidnappers were demanding millions of dollars in ransom for her return. And police had kept the story a secret for months. Yesterday, police revealed that they'd arrested Mr. Hagen himself. And that they have, quote: "reasonable reason to suspect Tom Hagen of the murder or complicity in the murder of Anne-Elisabeth Hagen". Unquote. Jan Furuly is the investigative journalist we spoke when the story first broke. We reached him again, in Oslo, Norway.

CO: Jan, what did you think when you heard that Tom Hagen had been arrested?

JAN FURULY: Well, I woke up yesterday, and I was not very surprised that he was arrested. And actually, we have been, you know, kind of waiting for this to happen.

CO: Well, let's just go back to when we last spoke. This story was at that time that you reported was that Tom Hagen was the husband of a woman in her 60s who had been abducted by kidnappers held for ransom. And that's the story the police were giving. Did you have any reason at that time to doubt the story?

JF: Well, we got a tip, you know, back in November of 2018 that an older woman was missing from her home. Shortly after, we sent a team to this neighbourhood. And a photographer and a journalist had only been there like five to ten minutes before our chief editor got a phone from the police basically telling us to get out of the scene. We should not be there at all because a life was at risk, they claimed.

CO: When we spoke with you, it was when the police finally did go public with that. But you had been asked, you and your publication had been asked to not report on this for a matter of a couple of months, right?

JF: Yeah. And we even had a meeting with the police together with some other news outlets the 21st of December 2018. That was the first time when they said that they suspected an abduction. And also, they told us that someone had demanded ransom money in cryptocurrency for the return of this woman. And still, they said that we should not report on this. And it was not until the end of January 2019 that they broke the silence. So ten weeks with total silence. They even lied to neighbours early, early-stage, claiming that they were looking for a missing 14-year-old girl when they were in the neighbourhood with the investigators.

CO: Right. And all during that time, they were looking for this woman, Anne-Elizabeth Hagen, the wife of this very wealthy man. And the story is, when you were finally able to report it, was that these kidnappers had demanded I think ten million dollars for the return of her. What were the suspicious elements? What led the police to suspect at some point that this wasn't true? This wasn't kidnappers who had taken this woman.

JF: Yeah, there was a letter at the scene written in a very bad Norwegian language that they were claiming that they had taken this woman, and demanded a ransom. And also, that the husband should not make any contact with the police. This was a version of the crime that was made public. But of course, the police, they have investigated it in other directions as well. At a pretty early stage, we were aware that the police were also having projects where they were assessing could this have been done by the husband or somebody else? We found out last spring they were having a secret investigation where they were tapping the phone. They could enter his house and install technical equipment, you know, to surveil him.

CO: But I understand the alleged kidnapper, one of the suspicious things, is that they could never produce the woman alive. They didn’t, and couldn't, give any proof that she was living.

JF: Yeah. In police briefing after police briefing, the main investigator said that, well, again, there is no proof of evidence that Anne-Elizabeth is still alive. There hasn't been any type of evidence that she has been alive.

CO: Those many weeks when you were told not to do any investigation, not to report on it, so the public didn't know what you knew for it for two months. Do you think that that was a mistake on the part of the police? Do you think that they would have more evidence, there could have been more done, perhaps?

JF: Yeah, we asked, you know, during the first press conference, they held, you know, the 10th of January, 2019, was it a mistake to keep this a secret for ten weeks? And they said, well, of course, a lot of evidence could have been wiped out by that time. So a lot of evidence and eyewitness information has been wiped out by time. So the court, it's only like two hours ago when the court came to a decision to keep Tom Hagen in prison for the next four weeks. And in the court document, they are writing that it's probable that he had help from others. And also, it's a kind of professionalism required to be able to move Anne-Elizabeth Hagen from their house. Everything has been done very cleverly to camouflage, you know, the real story behind why is Anne-Elizabeth Hagen still missing, you know, 18 months after she's dead.

CO: All right. We will leave it there. Again, these are allegations against Tom Hagen. And yet to be proven. So we will be in touch and follow the story. Thank you so much, Jan.

JF: Okay.

CO: Bye-bye.

JF: Yeah, bye-bye.

CH: Jan Furuly is an investigative journalist with the newspaper Aftenposten. We reached him in Oslo, Norway. Tom Hagen's lawyer has said that his client had nothing to do with his wife's disappearance and has asked that he be released from police custody.

[Music: Piano]

Bonavista tourists

Guest: John Norman

CH: There's no universe in which essential travel during a pandemic includes driving hundreds of kilometres to look at icebergs. But it's happening in this universe. Specifically, in one Newfoundland town. The mayor of Bonavista says that out-of-province travellers are arriving to gawk at the ice chunks. And he's not happy about it. We reached John Norman in Bonavista.

CO: Mayor Norman, when did you start hearing about visitors, these visitors, coming to your town?

JOHN NORMAN: About two-and-a-half weeks ago, we started seeing our first visitors. Which is, of course, not uncommon for eastern Newfoundland or for Bonavista this time of year. We love to see normally our visitors coming as tourism is a huge industry for us.

CO: How did people respond when they started seeing your tourists?

JN: Oh, that's where some of the concern arose. Visitors have created a little bit of a kerfuffle, if you will, in the community. Of course, people are concerned about public safety. The fact that we have very low numbers of cases in Newfoundland and no cases in the Bonavista region. So to see outsiders coming in, of course, was understandably alarming for some, and somewhat surprising for me. I know now the government is tightening up things as well to even more closely monitor than they already were. But I think it's gonna be impossible to catch every single person in the world today that wants to travel.

CO: The visitors to Bonavista, where are they coming from?

JN: We've seen visitors, I mean, not huge numbers, not as we normally would see. But we're seeing visitors on a daily or every second-day basis right now. Canadian visitors, predominantly, some Americans floating around, but people from Nova Scotia, Quebec, New Brunswick. Quite surprisingly, some have gone so far as to put reviews on the accommodations online for all to see that they've stayed at in the past 48 hours, even. So they're identifying themselves, which I find quite surprising.

CO: Right. Now, you have spoken with some of these visitors. Tell us a bit about those interactions?

JN: Of course. I mean, I was very polite. I introduced myself, asked where they were from? My concern was that I didn't want to jump to conclusions that maybe these are just Newfoundlanders, as we have a lot of Newfoundlanders working abroad across Canada and elsewhere, and they're returning home. So you can't just say a foreign licence plate is a tourist. So I wanted to confirm for myself, speak for them — a speak to them personally — and I did. A couple from Nova Scotia, a couple from Quebec. A few over the past few weeks. And they were either somewhat unaware of the strict restrictions in place in Newfoundland. And I pointed out some of the information to them at a distance and told them what sites to look at. And, you know, very politely said it’s really lovely that you're here to see the icebergs. Of course, we value the tourist market in Newfoundland, but we are currently closed for outside visitors in our region. And we prefer that you not have come at this time.

CO: And how did they react when you said that?

JN: They were calm. They were understanding, the few that I did speak with. I think there was a little bit of a language barrier with the Quebec couple. My French is only elementary at best. Right now, I’m actually in the process of learning French, relearning, french from high school. So I couldn't say a whole lot to them. But I did bring up my phone and show the screen to them of what COVID site for the government of N.L. to look at.

CO: But, I mean, they’re very strict rules about travelling or coming to Newfoundland. So how are they getting there, what ferries are they taking?

JN: Those that I've spoken to, the few that I have spoken to, have taken the ferry from Nova Scotia, from Cape Breton to the west coast of Newfoundland — from Port aux Basques.

CO: And there are no restrictions on getting on that Port aux Basques ferry?

JN: There are restrictions, yes. I don't know. I wasn't too investigatory when I was speaking to them, but they did say they took the ferry. I asked, you know, have you been speaking to anyone? Did you sign any paperwork? Some said yes. Some said they had been speaking to people. Some said no. It's really hard to say what they're telling people. Unless, I mean, you really go and prove with some sort of documentation where you're from, how can you really guarantee what you're telling that individual at a ferry terminal or at an airport is accurate? There's always going to be a few that get through the cracks. And that's not a cop-out. That's just a fact. There's going to be some people, a small, small minority that are going to find their way through all of these regulations if they really want to get somewhere. How do we stop them? I don't know.

CO: Your health minister, Mr. John Haggie, has said that if you come from away, you best stay away. So he's pretty bluntly.

JN: That's probably been prompted, I think, I can't speak for the minister, but probably as a result of some of the media attention my comments has gotten over the past few days. And I really didn't realize or intend to make it such a large story.

CO: What kind of muscle is he going to put behind that?

JN: I think there are a number of announcements coming. There were some other tightening of regulations today I see with who can introduce Newfoundland land and when. And I think there's more of a plan and a framework that's going to be released by the government in the next day or two from what I've been told today. So I think we all look forward to that in the sector — more clarity.

CO: Now, I understand that part of the reason why you’re having people coming is that the icebergs are really quite magnificent this year.

JN: Of course!

CO: [chuckling] And so I don't want to encourage people to try and go there. But give us a sense, just if you would, how magnificent these bodies are this year.

JN: Well, it is a little bit early as well for icebergs. We've had a couple of nice big icebergs this year. But for now, please don't come and see them. And I think this year, especially for those from outside the province, you're going to have to wait some time, maybe later 2020 or even early 2021. It may be a staycation year in Newfoundland. And we’ll welcome our fellow Newfoundlanders to our community and try to stop community spread once the virus is at a incredibly low level in the province. That's, I guess, what we can hope for in the tourism sector.

CO: Right. Well, I encourage your people of Bonavista to post lots of pictures online so we can look at them and not have to visit this year at least.

JN: [both chuckling] with the disclaimer.

CO: With the disclaimer. Absolutely, yes.[ laughing] Right. Thanks, Mayor.

JN: Thank you.

CH: John Norman is the mayor of Bonavista, Newfoundland. That's where we reached him.

[Music: Folk]

[sc]

[Music: A live performance of “We’re All In This Together”]

JOE KEITHLEY: When things go wrong. Well, you have to make a stand. You gotta help your neighbours. All across this land. And the frontline workers, who fight to keep us safe. They are brave souls. By the courage, I’m amazed.

JOE KEITHLEY AND MIKE HURLEY: Cause we’re all in this together.

[/sc]

CH: You're listening to Burnaby, BC Mayor Mike Hurley, and city councillor Joe Keithley, performing their "COVID-19 rock anthem", which is called: "We're All In This Together". They're in a park, a safe distance apart. That's will take us out for As It Happens on this Wednesday, April 29th.

CH: And I'm CH. Goodevening.

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April 29th, 2020 Episode Transcript

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