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The AIH Transcript for April 20, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Indelible. Lisa McCully was spending the pandemic exploring nature and singing songs with her children. The teacher was among those killed in Nova Scotia this weekend. A close friend tells us Lisa was unforgettable.

CH: The gunman also killed an RCMP constable, and at some point dressed up like a police officer himself. We asked Canada's Minister of Public Safety, who's also a former police chief, what that means to him.

CO: When Juul voluntarily stopped selling many of its flavoured products back in 2018, the hope was that e-cigarette sales might drop. But new research suggests Juul was just blowing smoke.

CH: When the Saints go marching out. The streets and bars of New Orleans have fallen silent because of COVID-19. And it's bringing back familiar memories of another devastating blow to the city: Hurricane Katrina.

CO: Cave new world. New research says climate change led to the discovery of a hidden cave in British Columbia -- it's believed to be one of the largest in Canada. We revisit a conversation with one of the first people to take a look inside.

CH: And we hear from the councillor representing Portapique, Nova Scotia, who says not only are people there stunned and grieving, they must now figure out how to help each other cope when they can't be physically close. As It Happens. The Monday Edition. Radio that's at a loss for words.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Teacher killed in N.S. shooting remembered as 'vibrant, energetic, positive person'

NS Shooting: Friend

Guest: Bonnie Williams

CH: The victims were a nurse, families, an RCMP officer, a retired firefighter, a teacher. At least 19 people were killed in Nova Scotia this weekend in what is now Canada's deadliest mass shooting. It started late Saturday night when police got reports of gunshots and homes on fire in the small beach community of Portapique. It would end 14 hours later when a man dressed as an RCMP officer was killed by police in a gas station parking lot. We're still learning who the victims were, but one of the first names to emerge was Lisa McCully -- an elementary school teacher and mother of two. Bonnie Williams was a close friend. We reached Ms. Williams in Saint John, New Brunswick.

CO: Bonnie, first of all, I'm so sorry for your loss.

BONNIE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

CO: When you heard that something was unfolding in Portapique, Nova Scotia -- you're in St. John -- and when you heard about this, were you thinking about your friend Lisa?

BW: I actually saw it on Facebook. And it was just an alert for people to stay indoors and that there was an active scene. And I immediately thought of Lisa when I found out the location. I also have family in Nova Scotia. So my concern was for them as well. I did reach out to Lisa with a text. And when I didn't get a response, I was quite concerned.

CO: Did you think the worse?

BW: I couldn't imagine that it would be anything like that because I hadn't realized that it had started the night before. So when I received a phone call within a half an hour from another person who was friends with the family, and she told me what had happened. Quite shocked.

CO: Were you able to learn how she ended up being the victim, how she got caught up in this rampage?

BW: I'm quite fuzzy on the details. I've heard a few different stories, but I don't really know exactly what happened. I'm hearing stories about fires and people trying to help. And, you know, I've heard various accounts, but I really haven't any substantiated story that I know of yet.

CO: It just boggles the imagination at this point, doesn't it?

BW: Yes, it does. Yeah.

CO: I want to talk to you about your friend, about Lisa McCully. I've seen some pictures of her and lots of people writing about her. What was she like?

BW: Lisa was just such a vibrant, energetic, positive person. She just lit up a room when she walked in. She had a beautiful smile. And she was just a wonderful mother dedicated to her two children. And a fantastic teacher, just a lovely person. She was creative. She was just a lot of fun to be with. And she was always concerned about others. She was really socially conscious. She was always trying to help people out and cared about her students. She was their advocate. She had a student who had special needs, she was there for them. She really was a special individual for sure.

CO: The closest we can get to how special she was is there's a video that's hard to watch when you realize she's gone. But it is a lovely video of her playing ukulele with her kids and they're singing harmony. So what does that tell you about Lisa?

BW: Lisa just was so loving with her children and just so much fun to be with. And Lisa grew up learning ukulele. I'm a music teacher. I taught music with her mother. So when I saw that post on Facebook, I commented immediately, "Oh, wow, you still remember your ukulele skills." And her daughter sings in a choir. And so it just brought such joy for me to see that when she posted it. And now to look at that and remember Lisa that way, that's the way I want to remember Lisa.

CO: And those kids -- these are just wonderful kids singing along with her.

BW: And I was saying to someone today that Lisa has taken this time during this isolation period and she's done such wonderful things with her children. She was constantly posting things that they had done. They built mazes, they baked bread, they picked mushrooms. They were just constantly outside enjoying nature. And I had a conversation with her more than a week ago, and she told me that she was in a happy place being in this time of isolation, to have time with her children and to do the things that she wanted with them and to reach out to her class online. And I like to think that she was in a good place when this happened.

CO: She has a boy and a girl, 12 years and 10 years. Is that right?

BW: Yes. I do know that they're being looked after by family in Nova Scotia. I have heard that they're doing okay. They're surrounded by cousins. And my hope is that the shock of this hasn't really sunk into them.

CO: But they're physically okay.

BW: Yes, they are being looked after and surrounded by love. And it's unfathomable for us to imagine two children going through this. But I understand that there are many more in the same situation. It's horrendous.

CO: There's all those kids that Lisa was teaching that she was trying to keep up their lessons online, wasn't she?

BW: Yes. And Lisa was just so creative. And she was a master at that. So she was having a lot of fun doing that. Every now and then she would send me a little video of something she sent to her kids. And it was just so sweet. And as a teacher myself, I find that hard to think of Lisa leaving behind a class of children who will be very very upset by this.

CO: We know the police are looking at this point, 16 different crime scenes. I'm about to speak with the minister about all this. What would you have me ask him? What do you want to know from the government at this point about how this was handled?

BW: I think we're just all baffled. I can't imagine how confusing it's going to be to figure all of that out, given the number of crime scenes and the number of individuals involved. That would be my ultimate wish, that we would have a little more information as to what was going on.

CO: Can I just ask you finally, if there is any particular memory that you are cherishing at this point about Lisa?

BW: Of all of the things that I would remember about Lisa, I like to remember the last conversation that I had with her more than a week ago when we were trying to plan a little drive-by surprise party for her 82-year-old father who lives here. And we were trying to figure out a way to celebrate him, even though she couldn't enter the province. And I just remember her being so happy that we were able to pull that off. And so that's how I'd like to remember her in a good place in the midst of a crazy time.

CO: Are you able to help support her dad right now?

BW: Yes. Yes. We have spent time with him and he has many people around him. Of course, when we want to reach out, we want to hug, we want to be able to be there in a physical sense. And we have to be careful about how we do that. So that's made it a little bit difficult. But we're finding a way to reach out and help him. And the rest of her family, obviously, are in Nova Scotia so we can only help him from a distance.

CO: Bonnie, I appreciate you telling us about Lisa. I know there's a lot of questions still unanswered. And we'll do our best to find out. But thank you.

BW: Thank you very much.

CH: Bonnie Williams was a close friend of Lisa McCully, a mother of two at and an elementary school teacher. Ms. McCully was one of at least 19 victims in this weekend's mass shooting in rural Nova Scotia. As we just heard, Ms. McCully was a wizard with the ukulele. Here are Lisa McColley and her two kids singing in a video they posted during the COVID-19 quarantine.

[sc]

VOICE 1: Here's a little goodnight song to all our friends and family. We miss you from the McCullys.

[Ukulele being played and people singing]

VOICE 1: Good night.

[/sc]

CH: Lisa McCully and her children singing "Tonight You Belong To Me" in a video posted a few weeks ago. Lisa McCully was among the victims of this weekend's shootings in Nova Scotia. In Ottawa today, Prime Minister Trudeau spoke about the attacks.

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JUSTIN TRUDEAU: My first thoughts when I heard of this tragedy yesterday and saw the numbers climb in terms of victims, my first thought was for Nova Scotians, who for the most part, know each other so much. They are such a connected group that I know that the vast majority of Nova Scotians will have a direct link with one or more of the many victims. And the entire province and the entire country is grieving right now as we come to grips with something that is absolutely unimaginable.

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CH: Prime Minister Trudeau speaking in Ottawa today.

NS Shooting: Councillor

Guest: Tom Taggart

CH: Tom Taggart is the councillor for Portapique -- the small town where the horror began late on Saturday night. He lives nearby in Bass River, Nova Scotia, and that's where we reached him.

CO: Councillor Taggart, how are people in your community? How are they doing? How are they coping today?

TOM TAGGART: Well, they're not doing well, I would say. You know, they're kind of moving from, I think, shock and unable to understand more into an emotional state. You know, it's a pretty tough time. You know, rural Nova Scotians support each other. And so this is a difficult time.

CO: I mean, you have a very close community, as you point out. Everyone knows each other. And from what we've heard, people have not had very much sleep in the past 24 hours, have they?

TT: Oh, no, they certainly have not. It's difficult. It's difficult because of social distancing you can't get out and you don't talk to people like you normally would. But I was out and about a little bit this morning I talked to people and it doesn't matter who it is, a young or old, people are just having real troubles with this.

CO: How did you first learn -- what was your first knowledge that something terrible?

TT: On Sunday morning I get up, you know, had coffee and suddenly on Facebook or social media, you know, there's this message -- this alert for this lockdown. Lock your doors, active shooter. And to be quite honest with you, at that time, I thought, well, now there's been, you know, a party or a ruckus or whatever up there. And somebody has gone out and that's it. Nobody would ever dream that that's what was actually happening. At that point that would be about 7 o'clock or so on Sunday morning, our time. And, you know, it just progressed. It just continued to build and get worse and worse and worse. More unbelievable. And the story's still rolling out.

CO: So as the story -- the part that has unfolded, we know there is so much more tragedy yet to be learned. What effect did it have on you as you started to get a sense of the full scope of what had happened in those hours?

TT: Well, you know, it was just disbelief. It is really hard to understand how this could happen in our community. You know, I don't want to get into what happened. I know we discussed over and over and over again. But how could this happen to us? Think about the people that went to bed Saturday night or whatever, got up, maybe Saturday morning -- and they had no idea that this horror story was in front of them, you know? And how can this happen? It's just incomprehensible.

CO: As you know, people in your community, they trust the police don't they? If a policeman comes the door, they open the door. And here's something that has been -- trust was violated, wasn't it, from what we have been told about how this happened.

TT: So on Sunday morning, I'm watching this unfold on Facebook and it's starting to just go crazy. And I'm on there saying, "hey, guys, let's just stay calm." You know, keep your door locked. Don't answer the door for anybody but the policemen." You know what I mean? This is what I'm putting on Facebook. And, you know, we've come to find out well -- you know what we came to find out, right?

CO: We came to find out that -- well, we don't know all the details, but this man seemed to have been impersonating a police officer which is such a violation of the trust, isn't it?

TT: Absolutely. It's like everything else is shocking. This is the absolute callousness.

CO: And you know what your community is like and you know what that means to them, don't you?

TT: Yeah. Yeah. But this community will be okay eventually. And this community will for sure rally round those folks, the families of the victims. And it won't be short. And it won't be easy. But I am absolutely confident that they'll look after the people of their own. They will do that for sure.

CO: We are asking questions and learning more about him. So in that spirit, I will ask you if you knew the man.

TT: I didn't know him personally, but I had some communication with him on municipal issues, that sort of thing.

CO: He is also a member of your community or was?

TT: That's correct. Yes.

CO: And do you want to tell us anything about him or what do you feel about his role in this?

TT: No, no. This guy is nothing. I don't even want to talk about him. I really don't.

CO: I appreciate that.

TT: What he did...is unbelievable. And he doesn't deserve to be mentioned in any conversation.

CO: Understood.

TT: He's a low piece of life. He killed a lot of good people. That's all that needs to be said.

CO: I don't need to tell you that all of this has happened in the middle of a pandemic. And with all the distancing in place, how difficult is it going to be to be able to get together as a community and grieve?

TT: It's going to be really tough for sure. Some of the folks there are working on a I think GoFundMe page, they are working toward streaming some kind of condolences service on Friday evening. There's some effort that way for sure. And that's really where we're at today. You know, we can't have a gathering down at the rink or the rec centre or something like that.

CO: At some point, folks need a hug, don't they?

TT: Yeah. Well, it's going to be hard to do that. So I don't have the answer to that. I don't think anybody has the answer to that. You know, we've been watching people pass away and hearing from family members that they passed away alone and that, you know, they aren't able to really grieve. And this is just many many many many times more difficult than that.

CO: Councillor Taggart, I really appreciate speaking with you and hearing you talk about your community. Thank you.

TT: Thank you.

CH: Tom Taggart is the councillor representing Portapique, Nova Scotia, where the shootings on the weekend began. He was in Bass River. And we've posted that interview on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

NS Shooting: Bill Blair

Guest: Bill Blair

CH: Bill Blair is Canada's Minister of Public Safety. He's responsible for the RCMP. We reached him in Ottawa.

CO: Minister Blair, we have just heard from a local councillor who describes the trust people have in these communities for the police and that learning that this shooter allegedly impersonated an officer is such an abuse of that trust. What does that mean to you?

BILL BLAIR: I understand completely, because the relationship particularly in some of our smaller and rural communities, the relationship between the police and the people that they serve there is almost like family and in those communities. And so that relationship of trust and service is a very important part of the quality of people's lives, their sense of safety and security. And certainly that was betrayed by the perpetrator of these terrible crime.

CO: And why would someone have uniforms and an RCMP car?

BB: Well, that's one of the reasons why the investigation is so important Carol. And you know, the RCMP, to be fair, in the very earliest hours and days of this investigation and as we've seen just over the past 36 hours, you know, new information keeps on emerging. And what we thought we knew in the first few hours has obviously proven to be incomplete and in some cases, inaccurate. And so it's really important for the RCMP to do their job to get to the bottom of putting together all the facts and give us the answers to the concerns and questions that so many Canadians have about this event. And then when we have all the facts, I think it will give us an opportunity to have a little careful thought about what has transpired and the steps that we can take to make sure it doesn't happen again.

CO: You've just spoken with the family of a constable, Heidi Stevenson, who was shot and killed. How is the family coping?

BB: As you can imagine, they're devastated. There's children in the home. And the husband and his parents and in-laws are all gathered together. You know, I've had to deal with families in the past who've experienced such incredible loss, they're a remarkable group of people and the people you'd love to have as neighbours and friends. And they're going through an experience that is hard to put yourself in their place and understand the depths of their grief. But, you know, they're struggling through it. And, you know, I hope they remember the pride in Heidi's service and her commitment to her community. By all accounts, she was a beloved member and colleague and had worked very hard in her community and served her community for so many years. And we will remember the tragic circumstances of her death. But I think it's important that we celebrate the service -- represented by her life.

CO: What did you draw on to say to them?

BB: Well, I think they need to understand that in this terrible grief, they're not alone and that they have the support and the love of people from right across Canada. And I was able to share that with them because I have had the opportunity to speak to my former colleagues in the law enforcement community who are devastated by this terrible crime. And they want to reach out to that family. And under normal circumstances, you know, the entire law enforcement community and Heidi's community would be gathering in large numbers to show their support. And yet that's almost impossible in the current circumstances. But I was able to share with them that the country shares their grief and is there for them. And you know, that they are very much in our thoughts and in our hearts.

CO: The prime minister today made a point of saying to journalists that they should not use the photo or name the man responsible, that would be giving him the gift of infamy. Do you agree?

BB: Yeah. I think our focus and our thoughts should all be for the victims and for their families. The individual who is responsible for this crime deserves no recognition or honor in this. It is a despicable act. And I do agree with that. The police has got a job and the media's got a job to report the facts and to let everything be known.

CO: But how do we report the facts if we don't report who did them?

BB: Well, and Carol, just to be clear, I fully accept that it is the responsibility of the media to report all of the facts, including the name of the individual. But at the same time, let us make sure that in no way do we give him that gift of infamy that the prime minister made reference to. His notoriety and his shame and disgrace for taking these innocent lives -- it does not merit to be remembered. What we should be remembering and honouring are the people who lost their lives, the people who served their communities and their families, and the communities themselves that have experienced this terrible loss. The person responsible for these crimes deserves nothing more than to be completely forgotten as an individual. And what we should do is remember that the people whose lives he cut short.

CO: We just spoke with a friend of one of those lives that was cut short, a woman who is grieving the loss of her friend. And I asked her what she would want me to ask you. And she said she wants to understand why. She wants to understand more about how this came to happen and why it happened. I just wonder if included in that is not finding out who this man was and why he did it, that he killed members of families, he killed women. Isn't that responsibility -- I don't want to labour this, but is it not the responsibility to know more about the root causes of why this happened?

BB: Carol, there's a very important part of the investigation in that the RCMP are trying to determine all the facts of this case, including the motivation and what gave rise to this violence, because we have to learn from this experience to do everything possible to make sure it never happens again. And so I'm not suggesting for a moment that Canadians don't need those answers and deserve those answers, and the RCMP will do the work that is necessary to give them those answers at the same time. Quite often people engage in this type of terrible violent behaviour because they're seeking notoriety and fame. And so they should not be rewarded for their heinous acts by that acknowledgement or that remembering. Let us learn from these circumstances. Let us learn what has happened and how we can prevent it. And then let's relegate this individual to anonymity and ignominy for forever. And let us commit ourselves to remembering the lives that were lost and the sacrifice that was made by people who were working very hard to prevent this tragedy.

CO: Point well taken. Minister Blair, we will leave it there. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

BB: Thank you Carol.

CH: Bill Blair is Canada's Minister of Public Safety.

[Music]

Catherine Hickson

CH: The team in the helicopter was looking for cariboo. They found something else entirely: a hitherto unknown cave, an enormous one. For centuries, the cavern in BC's Wells Gray Provincial Park had gone unnoticed by explorers, spelunkers, and caribous census takers alike. One flight in 2018 changed that. Now new research indicates why they may have found it: climate change. In a paper published this week geologist Catherine Hickson and colleagues say melting ice and snow revealed what would once have been an impossible find. Back in December of 2018, Catherine Hickson told Carol about the sensation she had when she first stood at the caves edge and looked down.

CATHERINE HICKSON: It was one of incredible awe-wonder. You know we had been looking at pictures of the cave for the last few months but to actually be there on the ground was incredible. And just everything that we had imagined it would be, it was that and more.

CO: How big is it?

CH: Well numerically it's a hundred metres by sixty metres -- that's the opening. And that's actually about the size of a CFL football field or a soccer field. So that's how big the opening is. And then it goes down at least 135 metres -- so if you're the goalpost and looking down at the other end that's how deep it goes. And it goes farther. That's the only how far you can see it.

CO: What does it look like?

CH: It is this incredible vertical pit. Very large, rocky, steep, vertical wall, you can see snow in the bottom, you can see a waterfall going into it, and you can see all this mist roiling in this black abyss at the bottom.

CO: Can you actually go into it?

CH: Well one of our team, Lee Hollis, did descend into -- well he descended 100 metres. But we were not equipped and not prepared for particularly the amount of water that was entering the cave. We knew it would be technically challenging. So the point of what we did was to do a reconnaissance to see in fact how deep was it because the only pictures that we had it was filled with snow. So now we were able to confirm, yes it is a very deep cave. It is a very technically challenging cave and it will need a very well-equipped and experienced team to actually get much farther than what Lee was able to get into.

CH: That's geologist Catherine Hickson speaking with Carolyn 2018 after first observing a massive cave in BC's Wells Gray Provincial Park. In a newly published paper, Ms. Hickson and colleagues argue that climate change was behind its discovery. The team will find out what's inside starting in 2021.

[Music]

CO: Mr. Liber, first of all take us back to November of 2018. And what made Juul, why did they take many of its flavoured products off store shelves at that time?

ALEX LIBER: Well, the company was facing pressure from the US Food and Drug Administration or FDA to do something about rising rates of underage e-cigarette use in the United States. And the FDA was particularly concerned that the role that Juul consumption was playing in the youth vaping epidemic. So rather than be forced by the FDA to withdraw flavours under broad regulation, Juul decided to self-regulate and self-imposed this retraction of flavours from store shelves.

CO: But it wasn't complete, was it? What did they leave on the shelves in the United States?

AL: They left mint, menthol, and tobacco flavours on the shelves. And they continued selling flavours like mango, creme brulee, cucumber and fruit medley on the Internet.

CO: And at the same time, other companies started to fill in the void of the other sweet flavours, right?

AL: Precisely. An independent e-cigarette company called NJOY in particular, really sort of flooding the market with its own fruit flavour to replace the fruit flavoured e-cigarettes Juul was selling.

CO: So Juul took some of these products off the market. What effect did they have on their sales?

AL: Well, in just about two months, sales bounced back to their pre self-imposed ban levels and then kept on growing throughout 2019 until the fall. And we saw reports of vaping related illnesses start to really take a slice off of e-cigarette sales.

CO: And has that continued? Are their sales still strong despite those deaths and illnesses that we've heard about?

AL: So their sales declined a little bit in the wake of what we called the EVALI outbreak. But Juul is still by far the largest e-cigarette brand in the United States.

CO: What does it tell you, then about the consumption of these e-cigarettes and these products among young people after these bans?

AL: Well, it tells us that when companies choose to self-regulate, they're not really looking to look out for the public health. When Juul pulled its flavours and then bounced back so quickly, the reason that we think that this happened is that its old fruit purchasing customers who numbered among them quite a few young people simply switched to the new Juul flavours that were popular at the time, which seems to have been their mint flavour. And so what that means is that when a company chooses to self-regulate, it's not doing so to decrease or to watch out for someone's well-being -- what they're doing is trying to make sure that they can reward their shareholders and make as many sales as possible.

CO: And given those numbers and what you learned, is that perhaps why the FDA and the United States eventually got around to far more wide ranging regulations around flavoured products?

AL: It certainly contributed to it. There is evidence in 2018 that young people were still attracted to Juul flavours on the shelves, like mint really did help solidify that the FDA needed to do more to regulate the entire industry. And of course, prior to examinations of what Juul pod flavours were popular, the FDA had become convinced that fruit was truly attractive to young people. Now the FDA's regulation that it has support are also a bit incomplete. They only ban the sale of e-cigarette flavours that are not menthol or tobacco in a disposable e-cigarettes where you vape them and throw away the whole thing, including the battery. And Juul is more convenient refillable cartridge format was exempted.

CO: The whole point of introducing these products was we were told, it was a form of harm reduction, it was to help people get off of cigarets and to have this alternative way -- less harmful way of continuing. But what we learned is that large numbers of people then went into vaping who otherwise wouldn't have. So what effect has all this had on young people? We have more young people addicted to vaping than we did before.

AL: Young people are certainly using e-cigarettes at higher rates than ever before. It's a truly double edged sword of a problem. The young people in the US are using vaping products at rates that are truly sky high and rising really worryingly fast. At the same time, youth cigaret smoking rates are at the lowest levels of all time. And scientists are really trying to puzzle through how worried we should be about young people who are now addicted to nicotine through vaping, switching to cigarets in the future. And we're paying as much attention as we can to first get down the rates of youth vaping in and second, try to prevent all of these young people who've taken up vaping from switching to cigarets, which we know are the most dangerous consumer product on the market.

CO: Just briefly and finally, how do regulations surround these flavored e-cigarettes products in Canada? How do they compare?

AL: Well, Health Canada was granted wide authority in a bill passed in 2018 to determine which flavours would be allowed on the market. When Juul withdrew flavours from American store shelves in November of 2018, it left those flavours, same flavors, on Canadian shelves. And even when Juul finished marketing these flavoured e-cigarettes completely -- not even selling them online in the US in late 2019 -- they have continued to sell those same flavours online in Canada. So Juul labs at the moment, while expressing concern about America's youth and preventing the sale of flavoured e-cigarettes south of the border has continued to sell those very same flavoured products to Canadian youth.

CO: Interesting. Mr. Liber, we'll leave it there. I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

AL: I really appreciated it too. Have a good one.

CH: Alex Liber is the lead author of a new study from the American Cancer Society saying Juul's self-imposed restrictions on flavoured e-cigarettes did little to curb overall sales. We reached him in Atlanta, Georgia. And you can find more on that story at: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Alan Gottlieb

CH: Alan Gottlieb understood party politics and the politics of parties. A long serving public servant, Mr. Gottlieb was Canada's Ambassador to the US through most of the 80s, during which time he earned a reputation as a skilled diplomat with access to key decision makers in US President Ronald Reagan's inner circle. He also had a reputation for throwing legendary parties, which helped him expand those circles and broker major deals like the free trade agreement in 1987. As he once said, "In Washington gossip is not gossip. Gossip is intelligence." Alan Gottlieb died on Saturday. He was 92. In 2009, Carol spoke with Mr. Gottlieb about new buy American provisions and whether they could spark a trade war. Here's part of their conversation.

ALAN GOTTLIEB: That is a nature, unfortunately, of the world of sovereign states. You can declare war, but that's not very practical, is it? We protest. We try to prevent it. We lobby against it. We will go, if necessary, we can go to international tribunals or we can retaliate.

CO: And what do you think about retaliating?

ALAN GOTTLIEB: I think that if there is a violation of the agreement, I think we're absolutely entitled to retaliate. And I don't think we should [inaudible] from that. But essentially, you want to retaliate where it has some sting. We have a tremendously diverse trading relation. And if they hurt us, I think we can respond. But we should respond to the preferences diplomatically at the highest level with the president. And I see he has made some comments to expressing his concern about trade wars. We also need the highest level, the Congress to lobby the great barons and to show what it means about how it could hurt them. And there is the fact that we may be on the threshold of another Smoot-Hawley era.

CO: Now, you were warning even before this economic crisis. Last year, you were warning that they were being caught off guard with the possibility of protectionism coming with rewriting NAFTA and all kinds of things. How do you think the Canadian federal government has handled this?

ALAN GOTTLIEB: There hasn't been this kind of simple acts that have triggered the public imagination. So what we've seen is this slowly -- to use that phrase but it is a good one -- but the thickening of the border. The putting up of, you know, new obstacles in the form of taxes and regulations, and if they're not protectionist by name, they have the effect of that. And it's been slow, it's been incremental, it's been painful. And I have argued for some time, I think the government's reaction should be more vigorous. I think it should have been a lot more vigorous. But I think what they should do and not everybody would agree with me. But I think it's the right thing to do is try to take the NAFTA agreement further to prevent them from doing this kind of thing, from trying to create a more effective tribunal with more teeth in it where we can prevent these all these obstacles that come creeping along. So I think this is protectionism by creep -- it's incremental, it's not obvious, and only it takes a Buy America thing to really bring it home.

CH: From 2009, that was Carol speaking with Alan Gottlieb. The former Canadian Ambassador to the US, died on Saturday. He was 92.

[Music]

New Orleans Musician

CH: It's what makes New Orleans, New Orleans. People packed into bars or gathering on the street listening to musicians playing their hearts out. But these days it can feel like the heart has been ripped out of the city. Like almost everywhere in the world bars are closed, the streets are silent, and people are staying home. Despite the measures, the city has been hit particularly hard by the virus. Hundreds have died in and around the city. Doreen Ketchens is a clarinetist who can usually be found playing for hours a day outside in the French Quarter. We reached her at home.

CO: Doreen, what is New Orleans like without live music?

DOREEN KETCHENS: It's very silent, very quiet, very still.

CO: And what does it look like when you go out to the French Quarter -- when you walk around, what can you see?

DK: It reminds me of after Katrina. You know, businesses are boarded up. Buildings are boarded up. There's just a few homeless people, you know, around, not even many of them. The only thing that's really open there's a grocery store that we play in front of. But everything else -- there's nobody walking on the streets. Just nothing. You wouldn't recognize the french Quarter you know, if you've ever been there. And you can't even get that look in the middle of the night. You know it is just crazy. Or early in the morning, it's nothing.

CO: What is that doing to the spirit of the city?

DK: Well, I mean, you know, we've been through a whole bunch of things. You know, Katrina being one of them. You know, you're just happy that you're okay. You know, and the material things, you know, you just deal with not having them and looking forward to when it gets better.

CO: But this could not have come at a worse time for New Orleans, right? I mean, this is just the beginning of your big music season.

DK: Yeah. I mean, something like this, though, this virus is so horrible that, you know, no matter when it actually came, it would be bad. But in all reality, it's probably not the worst time because if it had come a week or two, maybe a month later, then we would have had all of these big celebrations and it wouldn't just be talking about New Orleans should have cancelled Mardi Gras. You know, they'd be talking about New Orleans should have cancelled St. Patrick's Day, Mardi Gras, and French Quarter, Jazz fest. But you know what I mean? So it's all in how you look at it. But if it's a social distancing thing, I mean, we party here. You know, we have a festival every weekend. So it's best it came, you know, early.

CO: But you did have Mardi Gras and a million people were there. And just after that, you started having your first cases.

DK: Yeah. And most of them black too, like we're 30 percent of the population, but 70 percent of the dead you know. And it's probably going to be worse because who could trust go into the hospital you know, if it's like that? I mean, you know, it's pretty dismal. It's pretty bad.

CO: But people make a living from the music. And so how are they surviving?

DK: We're surviving off of savings, you know, because there's no money coming in. There's just money going out. And I've always been a rainy day person. You know, I'm my mother's daughter -- always save for a rainy day. So thank God, you know, we'll be okay for a while, but I'd still rather be saving than spending.

CO: How are you keeping your spirits up?

DK: You know, we're playing and you know, we're together you know, my family. So that's a blessing in itself. You know, thanking God for good health and, you know, being with each other. I mean, if you're going to be stuck somewhere, it is best to be stuck with people you love, you know, and have fun with.

CO: Are you able to play your music? Are you having a chance, at least, to play for yourself?

DK: Yeah. Like I said, I make myself practice at least an hour. And I've found an old book and working on some technical exercises and scales and stuff and playing with family when we can. We're going to start, you know, doing a weekly kind of thing where we play together, you know, a song or two and just let everybody know we're still here and thanking them for their support and whatever. But yeah, we've got [inaudible] and we can listen to ourselves. [Laughs] You know, it's good. You know, it's okay. I mean, there are worse things out here -- you being without a job and not making any money. Now, you see, the thing is, though, it is hitting everybody. Like so many people at the same time. Whereas if you lose your job and you're alone, you know, and you just lost your job and you can't go to work and all this other stuff, then nobody really cares, you know? But since it's happening to everybody, then everybody can relate. You know, so it's sort of like you're not really alone.

CO: Can you play a bit for us on your clarinet?

DK: Yeah. What do you want to hear?

CO: I don't know. You decide what Canadians should hear and a lot of Americans too who listen to the show.

DK: I don't know. I play the Saints. Everybody can recognize the Saints, right? I was going to play "Do You Know What It Means To Miss New Orleans?" But that's sad, we're not trying to be sad. So. Hold on. [Playing "When The Saints Go Marching In" on the clarinet] [Singing: Now, when the saints go marching in. Well, when the saints go marching in. Well I pray we get back to normal, when the Saints go marching in. -- Ends with clarinet piece]

CO: Doreen, thank you. We needed that.

DK: Cool. I needed it too.

CO: The whole world needed that dose. Thank you so much. Stay healthy. And I hope you are back out playing again real soon.

DK: All right. Thanks Carol. You take care. You stay safe too.

CO: Thank you. Bye.

DK: All right. Bye.

CH: We reached Doreen Ketchens in New Orleans. And if you'd like to hear more of Doreen's playing, go to her website: doreensjazz.com.

[Music]

Gurdeep Pandher

CH: If staying active during the pandemic has been a challenge for you, Whitehorse resident Gurdeep Pandher thinks he's got just the thing. Mr. Pandher is an I.T. specialist. But don't worry, it's not more screentime. I suppose it is, actually. But it's screentime in the service of dance. For years, Mr. Pandher has shared his passion for traditional Bhangra dance with fellow Yukoners. Now he's become a surprise social isolation sensation whose online Bhangra classes have a growing following across Canada. Gurdeep Pandher spoke with the CBC's Loren McGinnis.

GURDEEP PANDHER: Long, long, long time ago, Punjabi or Sikh farmers they created these dance moves. You know that long time ago farming was all boring, all manual, so they needed some fun [chuckles] in their agriculture activities. So that's why all the moves they mention they tell the stories behind different farming activities.

LOREN MCGINNIS: And what do you get out of sharing it with other people?

GURDEEP PANDHER: I want to say the happiness. I think that's the best I get out of it. And also one more thing, that it brings people from other backgrounds together. Because when we don't know about people, we are a little bit cautious or fearful. But when we experience something then we see that, oh, there's no difference between me and that person.

LOREN MCGINNIS: Well, so what does Bhangra look like for you in the time of COVID-19 and you know, physical distancing and self-isolation?

GURDEEP PANDHER: This is so beautiful that these days when people they don't have many activities to do, like physical workout, this is the filling that gap in a big way. So I see lots and lots of stories from all over Canada. And that tells me that after doing this they felt really happy. And I'm so glad that during this pandemic this is creating that positive energy in the lives of some people. You know, all of us we feel sad sometimes that things are changing a lot. So I always used Bhangra, especially during these times, to bring that joy back, to bring that happiness back and come back right on the track.

CH: Gurdeep Pandher is a Whitehorse resident who's teaching Bhangra to socialisation starved dancers across Canada.

[Music]

Part 3: This couple travelled 3,000 km and went into quarantine to witness the birth of their child

Surrogacy Dads

Guest: Joe Zee & Rob Younkers

CH: Given the current need for distancing and isolation, we've all put a lot of things in our lives on hold. But some things can't wait and childbirth is one of them. That's why Joe Zee and Rob Younkers are currently in self-isolation in Minnesota instead of at home in Los Angeles. For the past two and a half years, the couple has been striving to expand their family. And now that expansion is set to happen smack dab in the middle of a pandemic 3000 kilometres from home. We reached Mr. Zee and Mr. Younkers in St. Paul, Minnesota, where they're awaiting the birth of their daughter.

CO: Rob and Joe, I'm going to ask each of you to give in a word what is it like to be expectant parents right now? I'll start with Joe.

JOE ZEE: Anxious.

CO: And Rob?

ROB YOUNKERS: Surreal.

CO: Why surreal? Anxious I can imagine. But why is it surreal?

ROB YOUNKERS: Having a baby right now is surreal, because it's almost -- I was explaining to someone, it's surreal within surreal. The idea of us becoming parents is, you know, something that is exciting and you imagine what it's going to be like. But originally the two of us, we're thinking about a surrogate in another state and what that all looked like and now it's all of that within a pandemic. And it is unreal.

CO: Right. So there's so many layers to this story. But first, maybe we'll get a bit of the backstory from Joe as to how you've come to be expectant parents.

JOE ZEE: Well, I think this started a few years back. This has not been a short and quick journey. Rob and I got married about two years ago. We've been together almost nine years. And when we talk about starting a family before we even got married, we said we would investigate every possible option. And so the first option was surrogacy. We went and met with a surrogacy agency that I knew of for the past decade or so, and it was highly recommended and we met with them. And it was a very insightful meeting, but it's incredibly scientific. And when we sat down with them, they said, oh, this is going to be at least an 18 month process. And I remember walking out of there with Rob thinking, 18 months. It only takes nine months to be pregnant. Why does it take so long? [Chuckles] And I think, you know, there was a lot of learning and naivete on our part. And then the second part of that was then we said, well, let's go see what adoption is like. And we had got recommended to an incredible adoption attorney in New York City that we met with and we loved her. But she was very straightforward and very forthcoming. And for us, the timeline was a lot shorter, but it was also much more unpredictable. And I think for us and the way that our life is, we ended up going with surrogacy. And that's not to say that that is the right thing to do. But I think starting a family, there is the right thing to do for you. And I think that's what it was for us. And it's been a very incredible journey in a way that has had a lot of highs and had a lot of lows and a lot of sort of obstacles to sort of jump along the way. And I remember having telling friends, it's like, oh, I'm so nervous about this or like this is what parenting is for the rest of your life. [Chuckles] You'll always be nervous about the one thing. And when you jump that hurdle, it'll be the next one. And I think they're not wrong.

CO: Okay. Now, just in addition to the complexity of surrogacy, you have a geography issue, don't you? Because you both you live in Los Angeles and your surrogate is in Minnesota, where you are right now. How have you been able to manage that, given all the restrictions there are on travel? How are you doing that, Joe?

JOE ZEE: I will be honest, we had anxiety about that pre-pandemic. You know, I think at the very beginning and I was explaining this to a friend, I said, you know, why couldn't we have gotten a surrogate in California? You know, where there are a lot of surrogates and it is much more liberal. And we're like, she could have been, you know, a drive away, a short commute away. But as this has sort of unfolded, I was actually saying, oh, maybe, it was better. And that was sort of our silver lining in all this, is that she is actually in a state with a lot fewer cases of COVID-19, and she is actually in a small town. So she's two and a half hours drive outside of Minneapolis, where it's even more protected and much more in a vacuum of that. So in a way, I felt like that was sort of our silver lining. But now having to take a newborn home Rob and I really wrestled with are we going to drive, which would take three days or are we going to fly? And what would be the least infection and or risk taking at this stage in her life?

CO: So you flew in and you're going to fly back. But you have been an isolation for 14 days in advance of this birth. Are you going to both be able to be present for the birth?

ROB YOUNKERS: Yes, we are. So we ended up coming to Minnesota 10 days earlier than originally planned so that we could quarantine after having travelled for 14 days. And they have been wonderful at the hospital. They are only allowing one person in for deliveries. But considering our situation, they are making an exception for us as long as we are both healthy and showing no signs.

CO: Because there's two dads here. So if dad gets to be there then both get to be there.

ROB YOUNKERS: Yes.

CO: How is your surrogate doing? How is her health?

ROB YOUNKERS: We were just texting with her and she's doing great. She feels good. The baby is very healthy. We have had a wonderful relationship with our surrogate, so baby and the surrogate are doing very well.

CO: I'm curious as to this girl, when she is old enough to understand things, what will you tell her about the conditions in which she came into the world, in the middle of a global pandemic?

ROB YOUNKERS: Well, we are doing our best to try to document everything and anything in whatever ways are available to us. So we are making videos. We're taking photos. We started a file with all our plane tickets and the first baggage claims for her bassinet and her carrier. And I think this story will organically come together once we have all those elements, you know, we have time before she can hold a conversation. So I think between now and then, we'll figure out the most interesting way to tell her how this all went.

JOE ZEE: And I think it goes back to our story of starting a family, Carol, the idea that like she came into this world with so much intent and so much love pre-pandemic. But in the middle of a global pandemic that we traveled through six states and almost two thousand miles to get her home safely means that she did not come about this casually. And the fact that she will know how much we loved her, wanted her, and have done what we can to protect her long before she came into this world is something that that's important to us. And, you know, I mean, listen, at the end of the day she will be born. And her priorities will be going to the bathroom and eating. And she will not even know what's happening in the world around her today. But I think as she grows up, she will. And she'll become part of this quarantine generation when she turns 12 or 14 [chuckles] and I think then she'll know that she came in this world at the most trying time. But I think it also speaks to the strength of the person you become.

CO: Does she have a name yet?

ROB YOUNKERS: She does have a name, but we are waiting till she's born.

JOE ZEE: We're also debating the spelling. [Laughter]

ROB YOUNKERS: Yeah, that's the big debate is the spelling of her name.

JOE ZEE: So that's been our fun little game here in quarantine.

CO: I wish you a very healthy and happy birth of your daughter -- both of you. And thanks for telling us the story.

JOE ZEE: Thank you so much.

ROB YOUNKERS: Thank you so much, Carol.

CO: Bye, Rob. Bye, Joe.

CH: Joe Zee and Rob Younkers are eagerly awaiting the arrival of their first child later this month. We reached them in Minnesota. And there's more on their story on the As It Happens website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

WWII Diaries

Guest: Rene Pottkamp

CH: Generally speaking, a diary is meant to be for its authors eyes only. But when Anne Frank's diary was published, her private reflections had a huge impact. Millions of people have read about her life as a Jewish teenager hiding in an Amsterdam attic during the Second World War. But Anne Frank was not the only diarist at the time. Of course, during the war, a lot of people kept journals of their daily lives. And over the years, a Dutch archivist has been collecting those diaries. And is working to transcribe over 2000 personal accounts and put them online. Rene Pottkamp is the coordinator of archive management and digitalisation at the NIOD Institute for War, Holocaust, and Genocide Studies. We reached him in Amsterdam.

CO: Rene first of all, who wrote all these diaries?

RENE POTTKAMP: Just ordinary people. Anyone who could write -- from schoolchildren to teachers, university professors, policemen, bakers, anyone. But also people who sides with the Germans -- volunteers from the Waffen SS soldiers.

CO: What compelled them to start keeping a diary in the middle of World War Two?

RENE POTTKAMP: They had various motives. Some started in May 1940 when the German invaded Holland. It was a major shift and they started recording what happened for themselves or for later history. Others started their diary when they had to go into hiding, when loved ones were captured by the Germans and went to jail. And people who already had a diary and just kept on going.

CO: And so how did they come to be in your hands, or at least in the hands of this institute for war?

RENE POTTKAMP: Yeah, well, the NIOD Institute for War Documentation in Holland has been erected in May 1945, three days after the liberation. And immediately then the people of Holland were summoned to give the diaries to the NIODs. And since then, the collection grew and grew. And even today, people are still donating their diaries or letters to us. And it results in over 2,100 diaries we have now.

CO: Wow. And I've seen excerpts in some of the images and pictures that are in them, it is not just writing, is it? It's the photographs, memorabilia. And so this story is really striking -- at least some of them are. Which ones have really taken you?

RENE POTTKAMP: Woah, difficult. There are so many different points of view. There is the Jewish couple who are deported to Therersienstadt but separately. The woman goes with the two children and later the husband follows. And of course, they don't know what happens to each other until by chance, they meet up in Theresienstadt. There are some examples of women who have their husbands imprisoned by Germans, and they just write how lonely it is without their husbands, how difficult it is to keep their households. And some are alone for three or four years, hoping their husbands will return. And instead that emptiness and the loneliness is written in those diaries. There is also from the other side, diary of a SS volunteer, who one day writes in his diary about the heroism he sees in eastern France. And then it suddenly ends. And later by letters from a comrade of him, we know that the next day he dies in combat.

CO: It's quite striking the numbers of diaries and excerpts that deal with being sympathetic with the Germans or even collaborating with them as you just mentioned. There is one that talks about how impressed he is with the Germans when they arrive. They act so properly and we can learn so much from them. Well, how is it that these people were willing to give their diaries up at the end of the war? I mean, was their no feeling of shame to how they had worked with them?

RENE POTTKAMP: Well, most of those what we call collaborationist diaries are taken by the Dutch police after the war as evidence. And from those police files, they were brought to our institution somewhere in the early 50s.

CO: Okay, that explains it. But I mean, at the same time, all of this -- what you have in hand is not just something that people reflected later on or the way history wrote it. These are written at the moment, the very time. What picture does it paint of Holland during the war -- Amsterdam especially?

RENE POTTKAMP: Well, yeah. There are many different point of views. So the picture you get is multi-coloured. It depends highly whether you are a Jew in hiding or you are just living your life in Amsterdam. But what some things that strike you, is that normal life goes on as much as possible. There are a lot of people going to cinemas, to football matches. And what we also see is from the point of view of the, well, ordinary man, so to speak. The hunting for Jews isn't that obvious. We have an example of a family from Amsterdam who's going out on a sunny day. They take the train to a place where they can pick raspberries and their train is held up because of another train passing by filled with Jews. And this family just complains, "Now we have to wait for another hour before we reached the orchard where we can pick our fruit."

CO: I was quite taken with that as well. And also descriptions of people, some who seem to complain that there was not as much food as they want, others who complain that there was no food. It kind of put things in perspective for people who are feeling that they are living in a difficult time with shortages, I guess.

RENE POTTKAMP: Yes, that sure does. It also gives a different point of view on how the liberation felt, because, of course, in the western part of Holland's liberation, only the explosion April-May 1945 with a lot of hunger. But the southern part of the Netherlands was liberated earlier. But this area had been a frontline. And people had to, well, shelter in their own houses, in the cellar of their houses. And villages were well shot to pieces by artillery bombardments. And well, did they have a totally different perception of liberation.

CO: So many fascinating details in these diaries Rene. It's great to talk to you. I appreciate you telling us the story.

RENE POTTKAMP: You're welcome.

CH: Rene Pottkamp is with the NIOD Institute for War, Holocaust, and Genocide Studies and the manager of a project there to transcribe more than 2000 diaries written by Dutch citizens during the Second World War. We reached him in Amsterdam.

[Music]

From Our Archives: Iceland Elfs

CH: Eight years ago, Icelandic Member of Parliament Arni Johnsen did some landscaping on his property. Nothing too fancy. He just had a 30 ton boulder installed on his front lawn. The project had its critics. Not because the result wasn't pleasing to the eye, but because some worried it might not be pleasing to the elves. All the elves. Three generations worth of elves that an expert told Mr. Johnsen lived within the boulder. But that expert also told Mr. Johnsen that they wanted their boulder home to be moved to a different location. And he was happy to help them out because those elves had helped him out. In fact, they may have helped save his life. In May of 2012, Carol spoke with Arni Johnsen about his rock and his elves. Here's that conversation again from our archives.

CO: Mr. Johnsen, how are the elves today?

ARNI JOHNSEN: I hope they're well.

CO: You don't know?

ARNI JOHNSEN: My experts in the elves world tell me that they are very satisfied to be in the new place with wonderful views and grass because they wanted to have sheep.

CO: They wanted to have sheep. So why did you decide to move this -- this is a boulder, a big rock, yes?

ARNI JOHNSEN: Two years ago, I had a car accident. My car flipped over five times 40 metres down and stuff on wheels beside this elf stone.

CO: Oh my gosh.So you flipped over five times, landed, and you say you found yourself beside an elf stone.

ARNI JOHNSEN: I was not thinking about that in the accident. But the car was completely destroyed. I walked down to the road -- (went) in an ambulance they called for me. Then some of the service people said there is something good in the stone. And the next month on the road, I follwed the stone. And check the stone. I asked the specialist in the world of elves in Iceland, there was a very big tradition and strong respect for the world of the elves. And I asked the lady there to come with me and check if there was something in the stone.

CO: Well, first of all, do you believe that that stone -- the elves in that stone -- saved you, saved your life from that car wreck?

ARNI JOHNSEN: I think so. It was possible. The elves part of the angels. Part of my luck.

CO: It as part luck. And so now you took an elf expert with you. And what does she say about the stone?

ARNI JOHNSEN: She was very surprised when she came to the stone. Because she had never before met three generations in one stone.

CO: So three generations of elves live inside this rock. And how old is the oldest elf in the rock?

ARNI JOHNSEN: He had lived in the stone for many hundred years.

CO: What's the lifespan of an elf?

ARNI JOHNSEN: I don't know.

CO: So now after you determined that this was three generations of elves living in it, why did you determine that these elves wanted to be moved to your place?

ARNI JOHNSEN: When we came to the stone to find out if something was in the stone, the specialists said that they had discussed and they were all very satisfied of this idea and agreed. And they wanted to move and have some interest in their life. They knew it was a really beautiful and they wanted to move. So that's why I moved them.

CO: How big is this rock?

ARNI JOHNSEN: Rock is about 25-30 tons.

CO: And is it on your front yard now?

ARNI JOHNSEN: Yes, it is now.

CO: Do you think they're happy? What is it like about living on the Westman Islands?

ARNI JOHNSEN: The lady -- the expert -- she said they were very happy to be in a new place because the stone is placed where they have a look over the ocean or small islands.

CO: Sounds like a great place to raise children and sheep. So they want to raise sheep as well. Did they get some sheep, do you know?

ARNI JOHNSEN: Yes. They asked us when we met them first that they wanted to place the stone on the grass because they were interested in sheep.

CO: Now, I understand, though, you have had some advice since the move to your yard that you may have brought bad luck on yourself, that an accident me befall you because you should never move an elf's home.

ARNI JOHNSEN: If you do something against their will and if you do something without trying to contact them, then we have many stories in Iceland about the unluck and accident and many many stories. But we did everything as they wanted to do it.

CO: Okay. Well, I hope it all works out with you and the elves Mr. Johnsen.

ARNI JOHNSEN: Okay, good day.

CO: Nice to speak with you. Good night.

ARNI JOHNSEN: Same to you.

CO: Say goodnight to the elves for us, please.

ARNI JOHNSEN: Okay. Okay. You may be visiting them sometime. [Chuckles]

CO: I probably do.

ARNI JOHNSEN: I can have the expert to speak to them for you.

CO: Yeah. We'll try and arrange that. [Chuckles].

ARNI JOHNSEN: Okay. Have a nice weekend.

CO: You too. Bye bye.

ARNI JOHNSEN: Bye.

CH: From our archives, Carol speaking with former member of Icelandic Parliament Arni Johnsen in 2012. As I said, there were those who thought Mr. Johnsen was being foolhardy by moving the giant stone to his property. And they may have been right. Here's an exchange from Carol interview with MagnusSkarphedinsson of the Icelandic Elf School about a different Elstone from September of 2016.

CO: Back in 2012, we spoke to a politician there in Iceland who had a dealing with elves. Do you know that story?

MAGNUS SKARPHEDINSSON: Yes, I know this story very well. It's a former member of the parliament Arni Johnsen. He had a car accident and he got the idea in his mind that he should take this big stone to his island just outside here to Westman Islands where he lives.

CO: And he told us that he believed that the stone, the elves in the stone, prevented him from being killed in that car crash.

MAGNUS SKARPHEDINSSON: Yes. Yes. That's what he believed.

CO: But aren't there consequences for moving the stone?

MAGNUS SKARPHEDINSSON: Well, I warned him. When I met him -- and he was telling me this -- I warned him not to move the stone. This could have even worse consequences. That occurred because he lost the elections two years later.

CH: The moral: leave some stones unturned.

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April 20, 2020 Episode Transcript

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