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The AIH Transcript for April 17, 2020

Hosts: Piya Chattopadhyay and Chris Howden

Prologue

CH: And on a whang and a prayer. In 2007, Carol spoke with the owner of the Icelandic Phallological Museum about his quest to find a human penis donor, and the exhibitionists who were eager to complete his exhibition.

CH: As It Happens, the Friday Edition. Radio that suspects he's not the only one hoping for the very best severance package.

[Music: Theme]

Part one

Fillin’ wells

Guest: Daryl Bennett

[Music: Ambient]

Montreal LTC

Ventilator overuse

Guest: Marco Garrone

CH: The stories of the most severe cases of COVID-19 are harrowing. And at their core, many of them are about oxygen, breathing, the physical and psychological distress that comes with not being able to do it properly — and relying in more extreme cases on a ventilator for help. Those machines are in high demand everywhere right now. But newly published research out of Europe says hospitals may be over-relying on ventilators. And intubation in particular. Dr. Marco Garrone works in an emergency room in northern Italy. One of the places where ventilators have been in short supply during this pandemic. We reached Dr. Garrone in Turin.

PC: Dr. Garrone, what was your reaction when you heard about this research suggesting that we may actually be overusing ventilators right now?

MARCO GARRONE: Well, my reaction was basically to see some doubts that I had already been confirmed. We started off intubating patients who had a low oxygen value, despite the fact that they were not short of breath. And this led to very bad results. So we already had a hunch that we were doing the wrong thing in performing oral intubation. So when this paper came out, we were kind of confirmed and our doubts.

PC: In ordinary circumstances, why would you intubate a patient? What signs are doctors looking for to tell them that this is a necessary thing?

MG: Well, first of all, we look at the patient. That is if we see a patient who has a lot of trouble breathing, if his breathing is very laboured and he has a great difficulty breathing, that's an indication to intubate. And if we see very low values of oxygen.

PC: And so what is different about COVID-19 patients, as far as you can tell, because they often come to you in the same situation, difficulty breathing, low oxygen?

MG: The very big difference is that COVID patients are extremely tolerant to low such rates of oxygen, low quantities of oxygen in the blood. That is, if I have a patient, I call the patient, and they come in almost without symptoms, despite having very, very low quantities of oxygen in his blood. This makes them, on one hand, it makes them look like if they need desperately invasive ventilation or that they need great respiratory support, which is not that true. We've seen that most of this patient that they minor ventilator support, they do quite well. And they don't worsen as much as the patients that are either intubated or less spontaneous breathing.

PC: This new research also suggests that intubating COVID patients may in some cases actually be harming them. Why would that be the case?

MG: Because we will be ventilating this patients with pressures that are too high. That is, the ventilator is set for ventilating, which is thought to be stiffer. So inevitably, this brings the patient to be ventilated with a higher volumes. And thus, producing a harm to the lung.

PC: A long-lasting harm?

MG: Well, they might recover during ventilation by changing the settings, but they can also be long-lasting, yes.

PC: What is minor respiratory support? What kind of less invasive options should we be looking at?

MG: First of all, non-invasive ventilation, that is keeping the patient on spontaneous breathing and awake or with just mild sedation. And then we have two main options. One is provide them with what we call the C-PAP. That is a continuous positive airway pressure, which is a ventilator modality in which the machine doesn't push air into the lungs, but simply provides an environment in which the basal pressure is increased so that the lungs are, let's say, kept open. You can imagine, let's say a balloon that's half inflated. Or we can use what's non-invasive ventilation in which the machine actually delivers some quantities of air to the lungs. But still, with the patient awake. And synchronizing the delivery with the patient triggering the machine.

PC: This is just one paper, albeit one written by a highly-respected researcher. And this is in the midst of a new illness. And our country, and many others, are still trying to procure many, many ventilators. Is this enough evidence to change how hospitals are using ventilators to treat covered patients?

MG: I think so, yes. Talking about especially about Canada, I'm in touch with a group of Canadian intensive care physicians. And we are producing a paper right now stating that we should change the process that leads to choice of intubating a patient. Despite this, we must not forget about providing ventilators. Ventilators are still key to the treatment of COVID because patients do fare badly. At some point, intubation is unavoidable. So our take-home message is: try not to intubate the patients, do some things to stave off intubation, but still keep a ventilator handy.

PC: So in some ways, because you know northern Italy where you are. There has been a shortage of ventilators — in many other places as well. Is this potentially some good news? In other words, if we can hold off some patients from being intubated and ventilators, is this some good news in the fight against COVID?

MG: It is some good news, provided that there is not a shortage of C-PAP machines or non-invasive ventilators. So it's a mixed blessing, actually, because it shifts the focus from having ventilators for sedated and paralyzed patients. That is the ordinary ICU ventilator to have in portable machines, battery-operated machines, much smaller and simpler, which can provide this kind of ventilation to the patient, the non-invasive one. But these machines must be at hand.

PC: Dr. Garrone, thank you very much for joining me today. I appreciate you giving us your time.

MG: A pleasure.

CH: Marco Garrone is an emergency doctor at the Mauriziano Hospital in Turin, Italy. That's where we reached him. He was responding to new research led by Italian physician Luciano Gattinoni. Published this week in the journal Intensive Care Medicine.

[Music: Sombre piano]

Part two:

Taiwanese baseball

CH: Around the world, arenas and stadiums sit empty — taunting sports fans, and reminding us all that we're in this for the long haul. But in Taiwan … baseball is back!

[Sound: Deep drumming, distant chatter is heard]

CH: The sound of fans of the Rakuten Monkeys, drumming their support for their team, during this week's home opener against the Chinatrust Brothers. Or — more accurately — the sound of robots dressed as Rakuten Monkeys fans, drumming in an otherwise empty stadium. It's not baseball as usual. But it's still baseball. And for Richard Wang, that's enough. Mr. Wang is providing English-language commentary for Taiwan's Chinese Professional Baseball League games on Eleven Sports. We reached him in Taoyuan — not far from Taipei.

PC: Richard, I know we've reached you in the stadium where the ball games have been happening this week. Tonight was the fifth game of the week. How did it all go?

RICHARD WANG: Oh, I was a pretty exciting game. And we have so many home runs again tonight. And then at the end of the game, the Monkeys prevailed and defeated the visiting Guardians, eleven to ten.

PC: [soft chuckle] And did the crowd go wild?

RW: Well, there is no crowd. But we have a lot of fake people on the stand. And then but the camera is shooting those fake people on the stand, I think they all look very happy.

PC: Okay, well, let's talk about the fake people in just a minute. But let's go back.

RW: Sure.

PC: Because the home opener was just this week as well. What was it like to be at a home opener without any human fans in the stands?

RW: Well, it is definitely a very different atmosphere because usually, we had the home opener with thousands and thousands of fans. And they dance, they sing, and from the first at-bat to the final at-bat, But this year, because of the pandemic that is going on, we have nobody in the stadium for the opening. And it is different. It is quiet, but we try to make it, you know, a little bit close to it should be, as normal as it could be. But nonetheless, it's very different for the players as well.

PC: Okay, so in the stadium, you have the players, the officials.

RW: Yes.

PC: You also have fake fans.

RW: Yeah.

PC: Tell me about the fake fans?

RW: Sure. Well, the club, which is the Rakuten Monkeys, they're very creative because they use the cardboard to print out the faces of the fans. And actually, the fans, you can purchase this cardboard for the club to put your face on top of it [PC laughs], as if you're in the stadium watching your favourite players. And in addition to those, there are robot drummers to create an atmosphere for the players as if there are fans there. And in order to comply the regulation of the government, they made 500 only of fake people over there [PC laughs harder]. Because the government says for the outdoor events, you can't exceed the 500 people as a limit.

PC: So there's 500 cardboard cut-outs of people so they can comply with the physical distancing regulations?

RW Oh, definitely. They are all sitting very far from each other, yeah. [They both laugh] But the thing is, we really hope that at a later part of season, we'll be able to fill the stadium with the fans — the real fans here. Because we really want to see in the later part of season that we can invite every fan back to the stadium for them to sing, and dance, and maybe yell a little bit. And to let us to have a normal feeling of a baseball game as It should be, especially here in Taiwan.

PC: We wish the same here in Canada and other parts of the world that baseball could get back on. But here we are. I mean, the amazing thing about what's happening in Taiwan in terms of baseball is that this is some of the only sport available worldwide right now.

RW: Yeah, exactly. This is the only life sport that you can watch every night, or as a matter of fact, for you every morning, because everybody is in the different time zone. So here in Taiwan, it's goodevening. Actually, we say good morning to the people in Los Angeles during the probably the fifth inning, because by then it's about six or seven o'clock in the morning in Los Angeles. They just woke up; maybe they’re watching with a cup of coffee.

PC: And so for you, as you say, Taiwanese baseball has never had a bigger audience than this. Because it's worldwide. And you are doing English language commentary for the first time in your career, yeah?

RW: Oh, definitely. Well, I have to say that this is killing me! [both heartily laughing] I was so nervous in the first game. Because I've been doing the Major League Baseball broadcasting for probably six years, but it was in Chinese. This is the first time that for me to do the broadcasting, the baseball broadcasting, in English. This is killing me! I am so nervous!

PC: And you know, this is a big, pretty big, achievement to be able to hold games at all, even without the fans. And you mentioned that even the cardboard cut-outs of fake fans are being physically distanced. What are some of the things Taiwan has done to address COVID-19 that have made all of this possible?

RW: Well, I think our government played a very important part of it. They acted very, very quickly. And I think we close our border very, very early. And, of course, we have a very good habit of wearing masks. So it is a daily thing. We are used to it. So I think that helps us to block the unnecessary virus from invading to our bodies.

PC: And how are the players and the umpire and the other officials being protected? Because they're physically present all on a baseball diamond.

RW: Oh, sure. But the thing is that every day we come to the stadium, for example, I drove to the stadium today. At the entrance of the parking lot, they take my temperature for the first time. After I parked my car and walked to the entrance to the stadium building, they take my temperature for the second time. And they used alcohol to, you know, sanitize my hands. And when I walk into my booth, I used my alcohol spray to spray everything around. So I think we're doing everything that we can to protect us from the virus.

PC: And what do the players make of all of this, the fake fans, the regulations that they have to go to, playing in empty stadiums. How are they feeling about all this?

RW: I think, yeah, I think for the players to be able to play the games, I think that's probably one of the best thing that they want to do at this time. And also, facing an empty stadium, I think one player said it the best. It feels like a TV set with a broken sound system [PC chuckles warmly]. But they are fine with it. And they know as long as we want this baseball season to go along and continue to have a baseball season here, these are the protection measures we have to take.

PC: Richard, it's been a real pleasure to talk to you. And it's really making me long for baseball. Thank you very much. And I appreciate you talking to me today.

RW: Thank you very much. I wish you the best, too.

PC Bye-bye.

RW: Bye-bye.

CH: For the first time in his life, Richard Wang is doing English-language commentary for pro baseball games in Taiwan. We reached him in Taoyuan. For more baseball, which we know you want, head to our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Glassy jazz guitar]

New York Nico

CH: [said with a New York dialect] So I wanna tell you about this guy. Goes by the name of NewYork Nico. This guy Nico loves New York — and he loves it because he loves New Yorkers. The New Yorkier, the better. He's got such an appreciation for the captivating characters that roam the city, he's made it his business to find and promote the undiscovered talents of naturally occurring New Yorkers — helping them get the platform they deserve to express their most New York New Yorkiness. Like, say, on "Ellen". So when NewYork Nico — also known as the talent scout Nicolas Heller — found his beloved city brought to its knees by the COVID crisis, he knew he had to do something to help New Yorkers remember who they really are. The result was a contest on Instagram asking citizens to show off their best New York accent, and the attitude that goes with it. And in so doing, to remind everyone of the spirit that animates that great city even in — or maybe, especially in — the toughest of times. Here's a small sample of the boatload of entries.

[sc]

[Music: elevator music]

Virtual haircuts

Guest: Amanda McGrath

[Music: Indie rock]

FTR: Brian Dennehy obit

KARIN WELLS: No, I mean, it's impossible to get a ticket.

BD: Yes. So obviously, people here have an appetite for stuff which is challenging. But at the same time, it's not like, you know, some of Beckett's work is is really inaccessible and difficult to understand. This is not. This is about as straightforward a play as he ever wrote. But it is powerful. It has a powerful impact on the audience. If you do it right, you know? And if they want to be there. It's amazing. Actors always say the same thing, and it’s true. What you're trying to get in an audience is not applause. Applause is nice, and laughter is nice. But what you really try to get is silence. And the end of that play, that's about as silent an audience as I've ever heard. Because they are stunned by what they've seen.

KW:I guess you did it right?

BD: Well, sometimes I do. Sometimes I don't. That's the thing about theatre. You always get to do again tomorrow, till it closes. The thing is, I don't have any illusions about it. I mean, these are two of the greatest plays ever written, and they are absolutely perfect examples of the playwright's craft operating at the highest level. You know, it's like some people who say, jeez, you won two Tonys. That's fabulous. I said, yes, that’s fabulous. But it's also, I won a Tony playing Willy Loman and James Tyronne. I said, if you don't win a Tony playing Willy Loman and James Tyronne, you're in the wrong damn business. I don't have any illusions about, you know, who gets most of the credit for that. The playwright does. As it should be. And that's true for here as well.

[/sc]

CH: From August 24, 2008 that's Karin Wells speaking with actor Brian Dennehy on The Sunday Edition. Mr. Dennehy died this week of natural causes. He was 81.

PC: And so why have you had to close your business for good?

CB: So part of it is, I mean, with no real direction from the government, it just became a thing that our landlord didn't want to give us any kind of leeway on our rent right now. And taking out loans, it just didn't make sense that this is going to last, say, four or five months. Taking out loans and then having interest on loans to pay rent just didn't make any sense. The way the industry is situated, there's only one supplier of comics. Their main warehouse, I guess, is I believe is in New York, and it is now shut down. Without that supply of books, we have nothing new to sell. People like the new stuff, right? And that's where a majority of our business came from.

PC: So there seems to be a number of factors in kind of leading you to this decision during this pandemic. You talked about loans there. The federal government has announced new measures to help small businesses like yours, including loans to help cover rent. Why isn’t that able to help you out? Or why do you not want to use that?

CB: The one with the rent, I mean, still, there is nothing that has become firm with that rent one, right? It's still going to be the federal government talking the premiers. So, I mean, yeah, hopefully, something will come down and it'll help businesses further down the road. Because nothing was coming out and nothing was really being said as to what they were going to do for us, it became a thing, well, we've now gone and gotten storage lockers. We started to move our stuff into storage in various locations. So now I've got a half-empty store, and the government is now just starting to talk about helping us out with rent, right.

PC: So a little too late for you?

CB: Exactly. Yeah.

PC: Is there anything you think the government or governments, I should say, in terms of intervention could have done, should have done, that would have helped you stay open through this pandemic?

CB: One thing I think would have been once they started to announce that people should stay home and, you know, they were encouraging businesses to close, and they did close restaurants, hair salons, things like that had to close down. When that kind of started, it would have been nice if the government had even just said, hey, we're looking at how to help businesses, not only just small businesses, but, you know, the property owners as well, you know, encouraging them and even encouraging the banks or leaning on the banks to be like, hey, give us time so we can figure out how to properly address this, right? My landlord, they have bills to pay as well. So, I mean, I can't say that it's 100 per cent their fault. They're looking out for their business. We're looking out for ours kind of thing. So our primier here had basically just made the statement that he was sure that, you know, landlords would do the right thing. Well, not all landlords can do the right thing, or they're doing the right thing for, you know, to look after their business as well.

PC: And so you said so your comic books are going into storage. But do you have plans for them beyond storage?

CB: Well, hopefully, this will give us kind of the breathing room we need to start like looking more online, being able to hopefully start selling more of the product online.

PC: What are you gonna miss most about having a storefront comic book shop?

CB: You know what? It's probably the people. I I really do enjoy talking with a lot of the people. We had regulars that would come in every day. I shouldn’t say every day. Every week. New comics come out weekly. So, you know, I'd have good conversations. Certain people would come by. I usually have some sort of sports thing going on on the TV. So we weren't necessarily even just talking comics. We were just talking, you know, whatever, whatever's going on in life. So that definitely is going to be kind of the drawback is that, you know, I won't be seeing the same faces that I've seen every week over the years, right?

PC: I'm sure they'll miss your face as well, and miss seeing you and catching up. Chris, thank you for joining us. I appreciate your time today.

CB: Yeah. Thank you very much.

PC: Bye-bye.

CB: Bye.

CH: Chris Bodnar was cleaning out his store today. He owns Emerald Phoenix Comics. He spoke to us from Aldergrove, B.C., just outside Vancouver.

[Music: Sombre instrumental]

Robot art tours

Guest: Liz Gilmore

PC: Laughing I was just going to ask, and say I'm not proposing this, but if I wanted to, can I bash this thing around in the museum and run into things?

LG: Believe me, I have tried — by accident [PC laughs], and nothing terrible happens. We do often... We have one of our staff members there to accompany it in chance to the people as well, just to make sure nothing terrible goes wrong. But it hasn't. And that's the beauty of it, that it's a really robust tool that actually has big rubber buffers on its feet. So it never would go near even a work of art to cause it damage. So it's a wonderful tool for us to engage with our public.

PC: So I could log on tonight — from Toronto, Canada, and move this robot around this museum in England?

LG: You could. In fact, we could do it another night. We could arrange to do it. You could log on, and you could drive the robot at night or day time. Yeah, anyone can do this from around the world, in theory, at any time. If we know and we're prepared for that and have set the robot set up and ready. I think the wonderful thing about this, because we thought, well, we want to show… We’re this small town in Hastings that you might have heard of in English history with the Battle of Hastings. But have people had opportunity to visit? And and it's the most amazing coastal location you can use. The robot, go up in the lift and look out of the windows. [laughing] And it's it's really great. You can see our views. You can see the art. And what really benefitted it is not just seeing the art. It's the social experience. It's the interaction that happens. And let's face it, at a time when everyone wants it.

PC: You've only got one robot. So how many people do you think you might be able to accommodate in a week?

LG: Well, we're doing two things. We've done these very interactive tools that are immersive tours. You can have up to five people in one journey, along with the driver. So obviously that's a small number at a time. We've done multiple tours like that. What we're about to do is record one of our tours so that people can go onto our website: Hastings Contemporary, click on the link and then watch one of these other tours taking place. It's not the same as the interactive experience, but at least one gets a sense of what is it like? Well, what is this robot doing? So you can watch other people having a road crash, but no, nothing bad really happens. And it's quite fun. And you can hear those conversations. But what we want to do is expand that, so all our volunteers are able to do this so that we have a really continuous service.

PC: This pandemic has afforded, I guess one of the upsides is some creativity. And your museum has done that. How are we going to still make our art accessible? At some point this pandemic ends. Do you think we could be seeing more robots like this in galleries say, for people who are homebound under regular times?

LG: I think so. I think what really was profoundly moving today for me was to hear from a wheelchair user who lives up the road in Hastings, and she'd visited us once before. And she said that the barriers to engagement with us was that she has to get a taxi. And we’re by the beach and it's windy. And there's all sorts of barriers to her psychologically and physically. But actually, this robot, I asked her, would you do this again. She said absolutely. It was transformational for her day. And I think we're all experiencing isolation in a way that none of us would ever have imagined. But imagine if that is your everyday reality. And for some people, that is. So I think we feel a mission now to think about how we sustain that contact with people, once you've experienced it and realize the potential. The potential for us to connect tonight, and how your listeners could actually just take part, meet me in the next few days and have this kind of talk. Isn't that amazing? And how transformational is that? I feel like we can't go back now we've tried it.

PC: I'm sure some of our listeners will take you up on that offer. I appreciate talking to you. Thank you.

LG: Pleasure. Really lovely to be with you. Thank you for having me there.

CH: Liz Gilmore is the Hastings Contemporary art gallery in England. We reached her in Udimore, England, yesterday. By the way, Udimore is about a two-hour drive south-east from Reading by car. Or about a 16-hour trip by wheels, for the Hastings gallery robot. And if you want to see that museum robot, head to our webpage: www.cbc.ca /aih.

[Music: funky instrumental]

Viking artifacts

Guest: Lars Pilo

CH: For an archaeologist finding just one ancient artifact could mean you've hit the jackpot. So when Lars Pilø and his team in Norway found a lot more than one artifact in a depression in an ice patch in 2011, he described it as hitting "the mother lode." Now, Mr. Pilø and his colleagues have published a study about some of the artifacts they found on the Lendbreen ice patch. And they say those pieces are evidence that the area was used by people as a mountain pass in the Viking Age. We reached Lars Pilø in Hamar, Norway.

PC: Mr. Pilo, what did you find in that depression that made you call it “the mother lode”?

LARS PILO: Well, when we got into the depression in the fog there, we first found a giant slingshot-shaped object. And when the focus shifted, we saw that it was lying in a depression, which was filled with artifacts and horse dung.

PC: And horse dung.

LP: And horse dung, yes.

PC: And what kind of artifacts did you find?

LP: Well, we found the remains of sleds. We found bones from packhorses that didn't make it across the ice. We found an Iron Age tunic, a Viking Age mitten. So there were hundreds of artifacts in there.

PC: Now, this is not an easy place to get to. What first made you and your team want to do research at the Lendbreen ice patch?

LP: Well, it had already given a few very interesting finds before we started working there. Among them, those were a Viking Age spear. So we wanted to check it out systematically. So that was the reason that we went up there and look at it. You have to hike with heavy backpacks. It's the only way to get up there.

PC: And how long is the hike?

LP: Well, that depends on how fit you are, right? [PC laughs] The locals probably do it in two-and-a-half hours. I normally spend four.

PC: Okay, fair enough. And so what changed back in 2011 that allowed you to find so many... All of the artifacts in this depression?

LP: Well, the thing was that there had not been so much snow in the winter. And we had a very warm summer. So the ice retreated a lot. We had, in fact, been there the year before in 2010. And the depression was filled with snow then. And we didn't find anything. So it was the warm summer and the snowmelt that opened up this treasure trove for us.

PC: And in that year, how many artifacts did you find?

LP: Well, we worked there on the site until last year. So we worked there for nine years. And we have now over 1,000 artifacts.

PC: And how many of these items have you been able to date out of that 1,000?

LP: Well, we tried to date artifacts that were of special interest. And we dated a total of about 60 objects, some of which are more natural material because there's also remains reindeer and antlers there, which are called caribou, I think. And then we dated about 40 artifacts from the time of the past.

PC: And as you date these and do more research on this, how do you explain why there are so many of them in this one area?

LP: I think that has mainly to do with preservation. This area up there, because it's in a depression it’s quite protected. And that has allowed the artifacts to be preserved in this particular spot. But further down the slope, there's also ice melting out there. And we do have finds down there as well that are much worse preserved. So we can find like iron horse horseshoes and stuff like that. But they're not preserved in the great way that they are up in the depression.

PC: Now, what has really blown your mind in terms of what you have found there?

LP: I think it is mainly the to two things. And one is that our research in the high mountains over the ice has shown us that prehistoric humans used the high mountains much more intensely than we thought previously. And then secondly, the site itself, I mean, we like to think of these areas as remote mountains, and look at the mountains as barriers to the outer world. We can see from the dates that they are very clearly part of a larger network that extends into the wider Viking world.

PC: And so people use this mountain pass to travel for some time. And then they stopped. Why did they stop?

LP: Yeah, we are not quite sure, but we have some indications. We think that perhaps the trade routes may have changed a bit. And then the path was mainly used by locals. And then in the mid-14th century, around 1350, we had bubonic plague, also known as the Black Death.

PC: Hmm.

LP: Which had came back several times, and ended up killing between half and two-thirds of the Norwegian population also in this region. So the economic activity and the number of people living there dwindled. And when they recovered, it became the little ice age. Glaciers grew, and things got colder in the high mountains, and things had changed. And the path was forgotten.

PC: And you said there was the Ice Age. So let me ask you about the times in which we live. How is climate change affecting the work in glacial archaeology that you do?

LP: Yeah, well, basically, climate change is the reason that we do glacial archaeology, because if it hadn't been for the melting of mountain ice, we wouldn't have a job to go to. So it's intimately connected to global warming.

PC: You mean you wouldn't be able to access these things if the glaciers wern't melting?

LP: Very, very nice and slow. So of course the finds are very interesting. But there's a dark background to that they are melting out.

PC: You say some of the artefacts you believe are still out there under glaciers. I mean, what else do you hope to find?

LP: Well, I think every glacial archaeologist would like to find an ice mummy.

PC: [both laughing] We would like you to do that.

LP: But I’ll just admit it. And we even have a prepared mummy kit standing by in case something comes out of the ice. But the chances are remote, but better safe than sorry.

PC: [chuckling] Mr Pilo, thank you very much. I appreciate your time today.

LP: Thank you.

PC: Bye-bye.

LP: Bye.

CH: Lars Pilø is the co-director of the Glacier Archaeology Program. His paper is published in the journal Antiquity. We reached him in Hamar, Norway.

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April 17, 2020 Episode Transcript

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