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The Current Transcript for April 15, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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VOICE: It's an odd sense of disconnect from the grieving when you can't be with your family and you can't be with the people that loved him. I'm not sure how to move past it.

MATT GALLOWAY: It has become common to say we're all grieving the loss of something in this pandemic, a way of life, a sense of freedom. For many, that grieving is much more personal. And one of the things lost is the ability to gather together with friends and family to celebrate a life. Coming up, how mourning and funerals have changed at a time of physical distancing. Those rules around distancing are tightening. Kicking a ball in a park is out. Ottawa's public health office has asked friends to stop meeting for a beer in a driveway or chatting over a backyard fence. What is the fine line between protecting both public health and our civil liberties? We'll discuss that in about 30 minutes. And later, well, it's not face to face, but many of us are getting together online.

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VOICE: Every time someone new joins the Zoom, it's like oh my God.

MG: Some tips for those of us throwing virtual cocktail parties to make the hangout more like the real thing we're all missing. Plus, Tom Power gets some cooking tips from the celebrity chef, Matty Matheson. We begin though with what's being called a reckoning for how we treat our elders and the increasingly loud calls to let family members back into long-term care homes. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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Families of long-term care home residents are worried due to slow action over pandemic protocol

Guests: Jessica Andrews, Susan Mintzberg,

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VOICE: I told you they'd get you all pretty. Look at your hair and everything. You're gorgeous. Yes, it's beautiful.

MG: That's Debby Warren visiting her 98-year-old mum who lives in a nursing home in Riverview, New Brunswick. They can only see each other through a window.

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VOICE 1: This is nice. Look, mummy, we can catch.

VOICE 2: Oh Debby.

VOICE 1: We can catch.

VOICE 2: Oh Debby.

MG: You can hear how tough this is on families like Debby's forced to be separated because of COVID-19.

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VOICE 1: It's hard, but everybody's looking after everybody. It's what we do, right?

VOICE 2: Yeah.

VOICE 1: So I'm going to hang up the phone. So give me touch. Give me a kiss. Love you. OK. We'll be back.

VOICE 2: Yeah.

VOICE 1: OK. Mummy. Have a good day. OK.

MG: By phone across glass, this is still more contact than some people are getting with their loved ones in long-term care. Jessica Andrews's mother is in care in Montreal. Jessica, good morning.

JESSICA ANDREWS: Good morning.

MG: How's your mum doing?

JESSICA ANDREWS: I think that she's basically OK, but I think she's afraid. I speak to her on the phone and she expresses a lot of anxiety.

MG: Tell me about those. What are those conversations like?

JESSICA ANDREWS: They're painful for me because sorry, it's very hard because I can't help her right now. I mean, I can speak to her on the phone, but I can't be with her and I can't provide her with the comfort that I know would help. The in-person comfort that I know would help her to feel safe.

MG: What does she tell you about what the situation is like where she's living?

JESSICA ANDREWS: I think the situation where she's living is actually quite good, but she is aware of the dangerous situation and she hasn't been in her residence for a long, long period of time. So she still has trouble trusting everybody that works there. So I think she looks out her window and across from her is a larger facility and she can see people walking around with masks and a sort of protective gear. And she you know, she asked me, you know, you bring me a mask. She's, um, she's separate some from some cognitive dysfunction. So the anxiety might be heightened for her. But I think that everything is OK in her home for the moment. She talks about needing gloves and why are other people wearing gloves? Yeah, so she's very concerned.

MG: Concerned enough that does she feel comfortable there? I mean, we're hearing from a lot of people about the idea that if you can, you know, and you have a loved one in a long-term care facility, you should think about getting them out. Has she mentioned that or have you talked about that at all in your family?

JESSICA ANDREWS: Yeah I mean that was the first piece of advice I was given by some people that I know who are working in the system. And she often asks me if I could come and get her.

MG: If you could come and get her?

JESSICA ANDREWS: Yeah, but I'm not not able to do that. I have a lot of family responsibilities, so I'm already taking care of my father. And I just am, I'm torn. I'm sorry.

MG: That's OK. I'm really, I'm really sorry about this.

JESSICA ANDREWS: I'm just torn like I can't, I can't be in two places at the same. Like I can't take her home with me because I don't have the capacity to care for her. Because I have other responsibilities, I have professional responsibilities and other personal responsibilities. To me, that line about take your family member home is really upsetting because I if I could care for my mother outside of a residence, I would be doing that already. It's a very difficult decision to put a family member in a nursing home in the first place. So I feel guilty.

MG: You shouldn't feel guilty. I mean, you're doing everything that you can.

JESSICA ANDREWS: Yeah, I know, but it's just such a, it feels like the stakes are so high that my mind is always trying to figure out what more I could do.

MG: We've heard that it can be difficult because the situation is so overwhelming and everybody's scrambling to try and do the best for those that they are taking care of that.. It can be difficult for family members on the outside to speak with people who might be running long-term care, who might be working in those care homes. What have you heard from those who are helping to supervise the home that your mother is in?

JESSICA ANDREWS: I haven't had a lot of communication from management. I imagine that they're really overwhelmed at the moment. I talk to staff members. I'm just trying to get information. It's really, really difficult. I've had staff members tell me that like all we can do is pray and she sounded pretty scared. So that wasn't you know, I didn't have a lot of confidence after hearing that because I was asking, you know, what measures are being taken at the home to protect you guys, you know, because I want them to be protected. And I also want them to be protected. And. You know, I contacted the management. They said, you know, everything's fine, I offered to help in any way that I could. And they said they would let me know if they needed my home. I don't know. I don't know a lot about what's going on inside. I can only trust them to take care of my mum in the best way that they can.

MG: What would you want in this situation? I mean, we've heard, as I said, calls from family members to be let back in because they play such an important role as caregivers. And we're going hear more about that in a few minutes, but from your perspective, what would you want?

JESSICA ANDREWS: I've heard that as well. I mean, it's super difficult position. Even if I was allowed to be back in, I would be really worried about, you know, picking up something in one of these homes because they don't seem to be, the contamination in those homes doesn't seem to be under control, despite the fact that my mum's home at this time, I think there's no infection. I have no way of knowing that for sure. I've heard that the government is going to test all of the residents and all of the staff workers. Personally, I really don't understand why that didn't happen already like weeks ago. So that, you know, I could go in there knowing there's no infection and I could give a helping hand. But I have my 84-year-old father, who I'm also responsible for who's not in a home. I mean, he's in really good shape. I'm cooking his meals and he's he's home bound, so I'm doing his carer as well. And so what would I like to see? I mean, I'd like to have more confidence in the system because I'm personally relying on the system at this time. I would love to see my mum, but I don't want to be in a situation where I and I want to comfort her, but I don't want to be in a situation where I go in and I'm bringing some disease back to my other parent. You know, so I'm in a very specific kind of situation. I think there are plenty of family members who could work that out, where they could go back in to the home and provide support and be able to keep themselves to quarantine or isolated. I'm just not in that kind of a position myself. So I guess I would like to have more confidence that, you know, that the measures that are being taken in these homes are, you know, being taken to make sure that there is no spread. I mean, it would mean testing everybody. It mean isolating cases. I feel like that's something that we've understood for a long time. We saw what happened in Italy. We saw it happen in Spain. We've had a long time to understand, you know, some best practices and learn some best practices from those experiences. And I'm just sitting here, you know, I feel sort of baffled about why that wasn't happening or you know, I don't even know. I think they're starting to test now and I'm relieved. And I hope that those protocols are actually implemented like as soon as possible, because I unfortunately, even if I would all be allowed to go back in, I have to think long and hard about what risk that means for the other members of my family, in particular my father.

MG: This is really hard, but it's a story that I think a lot of people across this country will find familiar that they're in the same position that you're in. And I'm sorry to ask these questions because it's really difficult as well, but I think it's as I say, it's important because people need to know the position that people like yourself are in. I appreciate you joining us. I wish you the best and for your mum and for your dad as well. And I hope you get in to see her soon.

JESSICA ANDREWS: Thank you so much. I appreciate that. You know, you shining a light on this, this is so, so, so important and there are, of course, people all across the country who need to see some strong government intervention at this point because the families can't do it all either.

MG: Take care of yourself as well. It's really important to take care of yourself. Thank you.

JESSICA ANDREWS: Thank you.

MG: Jessica Andrews's mother lives currently in a care home. And Jessica joined us from Montreal. The idea of keeping family members out of long-term care homes was to protect those who are most vulnerable from contracting COVID-19. There are people, as we are saying, who are warning that this ban is a drastic mistake, that it comes with deadly consequences. Susan Mintzberg is a PhD candidate in social work at McGill University in Montreal. Susan, good morning to you.

SUSAN MINTZBERG: Good morning.

MG: What do you make of what you've heard from Jessica? She feels awful because she's separated from her mother. She has a situation where she can't take her mother out of the home that she's in and she feels in some ways powerless.

SUSAN MINTZBERG: Yeah, I think a lot of things about what she said. Actually, first of all, it's heartbreaking to hear her story. So I'm glad that that's kind of being put out there. A couple of things I think come to me. First, I want to get to her specific story where she's saying that she's in a situation where it may be very difficult for her to go in. And I think that's something we really need to be thinking about, because there are people who have family members in long-term care and also have responsibilities on the outside. But the other piece that really sort of struck me was this whole feeling of guilt that she feels. This message that we're being given about taking people who can should be taking their family members home. One of the things that I mean, I've been hearing that, one of the things that strikes me about that is this idea that and I think Jessica said it well, that we don't just put people in long-term care homes lightly. And often people end up there because they need certain kinds of care and this idea that we can just now take them back home, often is completely unrealistic for families to be able to deal with that at home. So that's sort of more specific to her story. But one other where I'm coming from and you know, one of what I had put out in the op-ed that I had written about is this idea of letting family members of certain family members back in to be helping out. So obviously, in Jessica's case, I don't think that necessarily would be the solution, but I think there's a lot of family members who are ready to go back in and who are in a position who could be going back in there to help. And one of the arguments and I'm making is that families are ultimately part of our health care system and have a certain expertise that we're not really recognizing.

MG: And what do you what do you mean by that? I mean, in some ways, they're not just visitors, right? They're going in to do other things.

SUSAN MINTZBERG: Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. So I think we often have this idea that families are there, you know, to to support in ways, you know, we're going to go and give a hug and we're gonna go and we're going to, you know, talk to our family members. But if we look at the health care system and I'm coming much more from a mental health care system. So my my doctor research is really looking at the role of families in mental health care. But I think it nicely kind of adapts to what's going on right now in seniors residences. So it's this idea that, you know, families are frontline workers that are often behind the scenes. So they're not they're not just there, you know, to come and go as far as the system needs us or as we please. They're really there to play an important role. And I think keeping the system afloat would do that.

MG: What would they be doing specifically?

SUSAN MINTZBERG: Well, I mean, it depends what what group you're looking at. So, you know, if we look at what's going on in long term care, you know, I think families often are there to you know, they know the person well, right? They're bringing that human touch to it. So it's not just, you know, giving a tray and saying here, you know, eat. It's knowing, you know, is that person eating? What do they like to eat? How, you know, what position can they be in when they eat? And often the system doesn't we just don't have a system that has enough infrastructure to support that. So, you know, that's one example. Getting them out of bed, you know, helping them to sort of go for a walk if they can. But there's also the whole mental health component that I don't think we're talking about it. But a much we're talking about is enough. You know, and what I'm reading is, you know, there are people in in in care who are dying of COVID-19, but there's also many who are dying, not of COVID-19. And, you know, I think that this idea that they're feeling abandoned, that suddenly the family member who may have been visiting them twice a day has vanished. And often where we can't even make contact with them, you know, is really going to have a toll on their mental health, which is then going to have a toll on their physical health. So I think families, you know, are there partly to help them physically, but I think also just to give them that support mentally.

MG: Well, and to Jessica's point, you hear her story of her mother asking her to get her out of the place that she's in, in part because, you know, that sense of abandonment can be a really powerful, have a powerful impact on the life that they're leading.

SUSAN MINTZBERG: Yeah, I think I mean, that comment that she made is like absolutely heart wrenching to me because I mean, I can just imagine these are people who are already frail and going through difficult situations and often have their family members who, you know, they used to having family members there to support them in all kinds of different ways. And the thought that, you know, not only is that person no longer there, but also I mean, I can't even imagine the fear that's going on. Right? I mean, all of us on the outside here who are healthy are afraid. So, you know, frail people on the inside who suddenly don't have their probably main support system a lot of the time, it must just be horrible.

MG: But given that fear, can you actually practically allow people back into those facilities? If we are told and we're I mean, the statistics, it's awful, but if you take a look at it, who's dying because of COVID-9 and what's happening in long term care facilities, you want to keep that population is protected as possible. So can you start to introduce people from the outside and not put that population at greater risk?

SUSAN MINTZBERG: I mean, my sort of feeling on that is that we are introducing people from the outside because all the professional caregivers, none of I mean, very few, I've heard of one place where they were actually having people move in, but generally people are going in and out. Right? I mean, the professionals are going in and out. And now there's a call in Quebec, you know, we're desperately trying to get anyone who can help out in any way, who is a professional to come in. So, you know, this idea that, you know, the family is more at risk of contaminating their family member or their loved one than the professionals really makes no sense to me. I mean, obviously, it's not a question of just letting people go in and out randomly without any protection. But if we can protect the professionals, why can't we have a designated family member who we also protect? Who knows what they're doing, who knows the job, so to speak, you know, who has this experience and let them in the same way we're letting the professionals in on a daily basis. So obviously it needs to be done in a way that, you know, we're protecting everyone, but I don't see the argument of a family is more contaminated than the professionals. If anything, maybe the opposite.

MG: There are many people and we've been talking about this over the last couple of days certainly who are saying that this tragedy is a reckoning for long term care, how we treat our elders, but also how we treat those who work in long term care, the pay that they get, the respect that they get. What do you think could come out of this when we get to the other side?

SUSAN MINTZBERG: I mean, I hope that when we come to the other side I'm not hugely optimistic, but I hope when we get to the other side, you know, that we can really sit back and look at, you know, where are we putting our unding, where are we putting our support? You know, I'm coming again from mental health and psychiatry, which is hugely underfunded. And I think, you know, talking to your producer yesterday and saying that, you know, this certain elements of other aspects of medicine that are very stigmatized, psychiatry is an obvious one, but geriatrics is the other. And I'm sure there's others. But these are the two that I know and I know better. And it's this idea that, you know, this isn't sort of I don't know what word to use. You know, cool medicine. This isn't you know, this isn't the hot topic. So. So because of the stigma, I think to a large extent, we're just not, you know, supporting and putting in the money that needs to be there. So, you know, I really hope certainly first for seniors and long term care that we do have a long, hard look at how are we treating our seniors. It's just it's appalling and I mean, you know, you don't want to get me going on psychiatry. That's a whole other ballgame. But I mean, you know, very similar situations going on there. You know, I've also been thinking about psychiatric care that families have been locked out, too, so and have a huge role in kind of helping that field keep afloat if you want. So I hope this will open our eyes and, you know, lead to some changes.

MG: I hope you're right and maybe we'll see those changes sooner rather than later. It's good to speak with you about this. Thank you.

SUSAN MINTZBERG: Thank you. I appreciate it.

MG: Susan Mintzberg is a PhD candidate in social work at McGill University in Montreal. We're going to continue this conversation about the crisis in long-term care tomorrow on The Current. We'll hear from somebody on the frontlines, personal support worker to tell us firsthand about the struggle to keep herself and her clients safe. We'll hear from experts about how we got here and how to avoid it happening all over again. We'd love to hear from you though, as well. If you have a story that's along the lines of Jessica's, how are you dealing with this reality that we're in right now when it comes to family members who are in long-term care and the support you can or can't provide? Get in touch with us. You can reach us at cbc.ca/theurrent and click on the Contact link. The CBC News is next. And then, striking a balance between your rights and the common good. How efforts to fight this pandemic may be cutting into your personal freedoms. We'll talk about that line coming up in six minutes time. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current. Stay with us.

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Social distancing measures and enforcement are key to slowing spread of COVID-19 – but do they also infringe on Canadians’ legal rights?

Guests: Carissima Mathen, Wayne MacKay

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, the superstar Canadian chef, Matty Matheson will share some pointers on home cooked comfort food. Surprise, surprise. There's more to it than just delicious bread. Stay tuned for that. But first, we begin on the fine line between public health and personal freedom.

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MG: It's been about a month since governments across this country began ordering Canadians to stay home to help slow the spread of COVID-19. And that has meant and I don't need to tell you this, a lot of personal sacrifices. You can't go to school. You can't have big family visits. You can't cross borders. And just being in public can result in you facing questions. Nicole Bernhardt went to a park in Toronto with her wife and toddler. They wanted to play soccer and then this happened.

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VOICE: There were officers going around the park approaching people. We were really distant from anyone else there. But when they did approach us, it was because they were telling us that we weren't allowed to be in the park at all and that unless we were going to keep moving, we had to leave. My daughter's less than two and we don't have a backyard. And so not being able to have any space where she's able to run around and play has been really sad and difficult. This really, really tight enforcement measures for people trying to access a little public outdoor space seems punitive in a way that it doesn't have to be.

MG: Nicole Bernhardt was lucky to get off with a warning. Not so for Alexandra Plante and her friend in Ottawa.

VOICE: We just stopped to have a seat on the bench at the park. We didn't think anything of it. There were a lot of people at the park and then a bylaw officer just pulled up, started walking towards us. We didn't think anything of it because we had no idea we were doing anything wrong. He told us that the park was closed and that we were using equipment by sitting on the bench. We didn't argue with him about it. I guess like we knew he was right, once he said it. And then he told us that the fine was going to be $750 and we both kind of panicked because we're students and don't have any kind of money to pay for that. I'm a server, so my E.I. is going to be less than $600 a month. So I'm literally going to make less this month than I will just like from this ticket cost. You know, this is like the worst financial time for anybody like ever so to be giving out huge fines like this is just like putting more of a stress in a stressfull time.

MG: The goal of these measures, obviously, is to protect public health, but these rules are also testing our civil liberties in ways like never before. Carissima Mathen is a law professor at the University of Ottawa. Wayne MacKay is professor emeritus of law at Dalhousie University in Halifax. Good morning to you both.

CARISSIMA MATHEN: Good morning.

WAYNE MACKAY: Good morning.

MG: Carissima, from a legal standpoint, how significant are these physical distancing measures across the country? Have we ever seen anything like this before?

CARISSIMA MATHEN: It's certainly not in our lifetime, but I mean, I think the last social moment that comes close is 9/11 in terms of provoking this paradigm shift. And this really dwarfs 9/11 in terms of the impact on people's daily lives. It's momentous and it's really incredible to think that, that something could so completely eclipse what we all experienced, you know, now some almost 10 years ago. So these are extraordinary measures and it's going to have to be very carefully monitored, obviously, because of the impact that it has on people and also the hardship that it can in some cases impose.

MG: Wayne, same question to you. How significant is this? And in the sweep of history, I mean, people look at the War Measures Act and the October crisis as maybe a point of comparison. Is that fair and accurate, do you think?

WAYNE MACKAY: Well, first of all, it is very significant. And as people keep telling us, it's unprecedented and sort of once in a lifetime kind of thing. And even things like the War Measures Act really are not, it's a comparison, but not nearly as wide an impact across the country and around the world. I think the closest comparison which does underscore how significant this is, is actually World War One and World War Two kinds of situations in terms of the restrictions and the impact and the way that governments are approaching it.

MG: When we talk about a ban on public gatherings and these are including in the case of Newfoundland and Labrador, funerals or provinces closing their borders, as several have now done, which charter rights are being impacted, Wayne?

WAYNE MACKAY: Well, I mean, I'll I'll start on this. I guess one of the obvious ones is freedom of assembly is limited in that they're limiting gatherings to certain numbers which vary somewhat in different parts of the country. Obviously, there's significant limits on mobility, not only across borders, but within your own neighbourhood and within the country is protected in Section 6, mobility rights and those kinds of things, or at least parts of them are. It limits in very significant ways, our liberty interests under Section 7. And in particular, I think privacy and surveillance kind of issues under Section 7 and 8. And I guess I could go on and religion just about every right under the charter and our international guarantees of rights are limited in some way.

MG: What about Carissima, if you take a look at ordering businesses and schools to stay closed.

CARISSIMA MATHEN: Well, the charter implications of that, I think are a little less clear because there is no charter, rights to, you know, to earn a living. Now, if it rose to a certain level of hardship, certainly there could be an argument. But I think Wayne is right that what we're really talking about is the more classic civil liberties in the way that that's generally understood. I would just add into the mix, potentially there are equality concerns in terms of that different impact that this can have on people. For example, it's much easier to stay at home if you're two people in a three bedroom house as opposed to four people in a two bedroom apartment with no access to the outside, no easy access to the outside.

MG: You said, Wayne, that you could go on. I think most Canadians understand why these measures are put in place, but there are a number of elements of the charter that perhaps could be have been put on pause, have been suspended, have been put in a different light because of this. What are the red flags that are being raised for you in the midst of this?

WAYNE MACKAY: Well, there are lots of red flags or concerns. It doesn't mean that what the governments are doing is wrong. And I think one of the things that everybody pretty well accepts or most people accept is that these are extraordinary times. And we do need limits to protect the health and safety and even life of Canadians. So that's kind of a given. But the question is the one of balance and how much restriction on rights are necessary to do this. And while the objective is clear, the measure itself has to be proportionate and rational and minimally impair in all the things that lawyers like to talk about. So I think there are some red flags in many areas, one of them being surveillance. And one example, it just occurs to me is just as of today, I think the federal quarantine law, which is requiring people to quarantine for 14 days after they come from abroad. And again, a sensible enough measure, but how is one actually going to enforce that? Finding out whether they have a credible plan, whether they are, in fact, staying in their house. You know, are we going to have drones, as they had in China, outside people's houses to record whether they leave? Are we and already we're using cell phones to track where people go. So there are some pretty significant invasions here and I like Carissima's point on the equality point as well. This will have different impacts on certain vulnerable communities as well. So those would be a couple of the many possible problems.

MG: What are the Carissima, you can answer this as well. What has the court said or what have the courts said about what is reasonable, what is permissible, what is a rational when it comes to how you alter parts of daily life that might be protected by the charter?

CARISSIMA MATHEN: Well, the current situation is not one that would have been encountered by courts because it is just so unusual that the breadth and the scope of the restrictions. But what the courts generally have said is that you have to have regard to the basic values that undergird Canadian society and that are reflected in the charter. You know, democracy, respect for individual liberties, respect for persons. But at the same time, you also do have to have regard to the context and to the extent that the courts have sort of ever even just, you know, glancingly talked about these extraordinary circumstances. It's usually in the in the sense of acknowledging that those extraordinary circumstances are ones that would affect that balance between, for example, public health and civil liberties. So there's a famous case where the court is talking about our liberty, where they they say that, you know, they actually use the term as a pandemic is one where we might be willing to countenance more restrictions because the the public interest is so high. So certainly there'd be, you know, clear, careful examination of the context. And one would expect a level of deference, but depending on the interference, you wouldn't want the courts to be overly deferential.

MG: Well, and Wayne, I think some people might be listening, thinking this is an interesting intellectual conversation with the reality is there's a pandemic that's underway. People are dying and this is a public health crisis and you need to protect the majority of people by perhaps making sure that people don't go out and sit on a bench in a park or go and kick a ball around in a field. Does the equation change when you are in a situation like we're in right now?

WAYNE MACKAY: Well, it does. And really, this is a Carissima's context point. This is a context where we will and should accept a lot of limitations on our rights in order to protect ourselves and our fellow citizens and allow the government, a lot of leeway and that's true. However, given how broad the impact on our rights are, one of the things that's particularly important is to have some kind of an oversight body to see that governments get the right balance. I think, just today, the Amnesty International has released a letter with the many, many signatures from people and organizations calling for just that. That in these extraordinary times, we need some kind of an independent human rights informed body that can stretch. Ask the question and explore the question of whether the right balance is being struck. A lot needs to be done. A lot of restrictions are totally appropriate. But that doesn't mean we should sign a blank check. And history tells us that it is in times of crisis and emergency that human rights can most be violated both during the crisis and possibly even afterwards. So I think it's really important to have that balance and have somebody who is making governments accountable at a time where most legislatures are not sitting. The opposition is not making points. The courts and human rights tribunals are limited in very significant ways. The media is one of the few more vibrantly operating bodies that can help to keep governments in check. So I'm glad you're doing programs like this.

MG: We heard that the rules are changing, sort of on a daily or weekly basis. Have a listen to Dylan Finlay, who yesterday was fined $880 for doing chin0ups using amenities in a public park in Toronto. He plans to fight this ticket in court.

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VOICE: Constitutionality of this emergency order that you can't be using park ammenities. I think, using park ammenities is a right protected under your life and liberty and personal security under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. And of course, the government can curtail those rights and issue a sort of balance. How far can they go? The issue of signage could be sort of official, officially induced error, which could also be a defence. But fighting these in court, you know, you have to pay police officers to show up and be witnesses. You have to pay judges. They really squander the public goodwill for social distancing and that's really the thing that's winning this fight right now, is people taking government guidelines seriously and with respect and I feel like the government should treat its citizens like adults.

MG: A couple of things in there Carissima. One is, and Dylan happens to be a criminal defence lawyer, so he knows of what he speaks. He talks about challenging this in court. Do you expect people to challenge these sorts of fines if they've been ticketed for being in a public place and violating the guidelines around social distancing or physical distancing?

CARISSIMA MATHEN: Absolutely, I do. I do expect some people to challenge them. Of course they can, you know, in the way that they can challenge any ticket, but also trying to challenge the actual constitutionality of the particular restrictions. You know, some of that's obviously going to have to wait, because the courts are themselves, as Wayne rightly pointed out, are grappling with how to, you know, how to constitute themselves and how to resume hearings and what would count as an emergency hearing. So I do think we will see some challenges to that. I think it's important for governments as much as they can to articulate clearly the limits and, you know, we're seeing different limits articulated across the country. And it's important that those, that there be some notice given to them, so that citizens do know, you know, how to behave and what's expected of them. There is going to be some slippage around that and the other important thing, of course, is there's going to be discretion exercised by individual law enforcement and bylaw officers. And that's, you know, where we're now hearing some of these stories where the individuals feel that they were treated unfairly. It's important to note that that kind of discretion is always in play and it's an area certainly where we we have to be vigilant.

MG: Well, the other part of that that Dylan was talking about was squandering the public's goodwill. In your city, Carissima, in Ottawa, we're now being told by public health officials, don't gather for a beer in a driveway even if you're six feet apart. Don't be talking to your neighbours across a fence in the backyard and people are reacting with outrage to that. Do you worry that, I mean, public goodwill perhaps should or shouldn't determine what the policy decisions are, but if the policy decisions go a little bit too far, that that public goodwill for the benefit of us all could be squandered.

CARISSIMA MATHEN: It is a concern. Absolutely. You know, you really feel for the public health officials who are trying to stem this tide. I mean, what we're being asked to do is highly unnatural. Right, to not socialize with each other to to, you know, to really avoid those kinds of. Connections that just make our make our human society what it is. I mean, it's an extremely difficult thing that people are being asked to do. And you do have to be careful not to not to bump up against that too much and not to make people feel that the that the rules are being set in a way that just is is intolerable.

MG: Can you do that though? I mean, the whole point of this is to keep people inside. Stay home is the sign that you see. The hashtag. It's the sign you see on billboards. Can you have both of those things?

CARISSIMA MATHEN: Well, I was just going to say that, you know, we are also being told that it is perfectly appropriate for people to to go outside, at least in a limited way. I mean, that's important. I mean, there are public health considerations on the other side as well. So I do think that this is a very difficult thing that both we are being asked to do and that the public health officers are being asked to to evaluate in terms of their directions.

MG: Wayne, what were you going to say?

WAYNE MACKAY: I'm just picking up on Carissima's good point about the discretion and where the limits are on this. One of the things that you hear a lot from people about is that they're not clear what the rules are. What is an order under a statute that is entitles them to give a penalty? What is merely advice? What is a recommendation? And they're not clearly laid out. And in order to maintain that kind of legitimacy and respect for the legal structure and the government, I think it's really important that the things that are being penalized be clearly articulated, communicated to people and consistently applied that sort of three C's, communication, clarity and consistency. And I think without that, increasingly as time goes on, people will start rebelling against these rules. So it puts a great burden on police and bylaw officers and others to try to be as clear and consistent as they can be. But I think it's it's fair that people are going to look at this and say, if you're not going to apply these rules fairly, then why should we respect them?

MG: Just finally, you talked to vote time going on, you also talked about clarity. We've been told that this could last for weeks, perhaps months before physical distancing measures are eased or lifted. They will eventually and we will get to the other side of this at some point in time. What are you going to be watching for, Wayne, when it comes to what happens at the end of this to ensure that we're still striking that right balance between public health and civil law?

WAYNE MACKAY: Well, I think the sort of COVID-19 hangover, the post-COVID-19 days will be quite important and well, I don't expect Canada, like some more authoritarian countries, will try to hang on to all of this at oratory and power. But I think we will have to look carefully both when things are really, really restricted and when they are relaxed somewhat and whether the governments are hanging on to power after the cause is gone. And I think that that's something we have to be vigilant about in every country, even in Canada.

MG: Carissima, just briefly, your concerned about that as well?

CARISSIMA MATHEN: Yes. Well, you know, it's easier to have a blanket prescription. Simply don't go out. It's harder when you're trying to in a very nuanced way, in a very complicated way, lift some of the restrictions, but have others in place. And that's where the clarity really the sensitivity of of governments in terms of how they deal with people, who by that point will probably all be going have been, you know, driven stir crazy. How are they going to you know and they're going to have to address that, that very real need and challenge.

MG: It's a real thing that people are up against, as we're hearing right across this country. Carissima and Wayne, thank you both.

CARISSIMA MATHEN: Thank you very much.

WAYNE MACKAY: Thank you. Nice to share the space with you, Carissima. Thanks.

CARISSIMA MATHEN: You too, Wayne. Thank you.

MG: Carissima Mathen is a law professor at the University of Ottawa. Wayne MacKay is a professor emeritus of law at Dalhousie University. Questions around physical distancing might be some of the things you're mulling over. We're learning more about this virus and how it's affecting people every single day. And the questions that we have continue to grow. You're still looking for answers to questions like what's my risk of getting COVID-19? What do we know about immunity to this virus? When will we know if we've actually flattened or planked or crushed the curve? And the thing that everybody seems to be asking is when will life get back to normal and what will normal look like? We would like to hear your questions about COVID-19 and where this pandemic is headed. If you have questions about where we're at right now and where we're going to be in the days and weeks and months ahead, get in touch. Tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. Email us in writing or better yet, because it's radio, and we love to hear the sound of your voice, record a short voice memo. I say short voice memo of your question that we can play on air. Use your phone, that Voice Memo app there and send it to us. You can e-mail it to us at thecurrent@cb.ca. And when we get your questions, we'll have an infectious disease specialist here next week to answer them for you. Again, thecurrent@cbc.ca is where you want to send those questions. Beyond seeking answers, many of us are also seeking some relief and comfort. And we asked you what music is helping you. We got this note from Lori Sheppard in Blenheim, Ontario, who writes, "What's getting me through the days now is Kennedy Road's newly released album. Every song speaks to me of the situation we are in now." And Lori suggests the tune, "Time." Here it is from the Toronto duo Kennedy Road's brand new album, "A Little Fight Left Yet."

[Song: "A Little Fight Left Yet" by Kennedy Road]

MG: Suggestion by listener Lori Sheppard. That is Kennedy Road and a tune called, "Time." If you have a song that is helping you get through these tricky times, get in touch. Let us know cbc.ca/thecurrent. It's like the national request line. Coming up in about 90 seconds time, some are covered, some say they are falling through the cracks. How equitable are Canada's emergency response benefits? We'll put that and more to our national affairs panel in a minute and a half. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current. We'll be right back.

[Music]

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Our national affairs panel takes a look at Canada’s response to the pandemic

Guests: Althia Raj, Robert Benzie, Vaughn Palmer

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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VOICE: So on a go forward basis, we believe that we should be having regular frequent accountability sessions in the House of Commons with a mechanism for the government to introduce emergency legislation as needed. That is our proposal. We are, we are open. We are hoping that we can find an agreement recognizing the priorities of every opposition party, including the government's need to react and respond to this crisis.

MG: Conservative leader Andrew Scheer is back in Ottawa and as you heard, eager to question the minority Liberal government face to face. What's going on in the west block and beyond? Well, to find out, we're joined by our national affairs panel. Althia Raj, Ottawa bureau chief for HuffPost Canada, Vaughn Palmer is the provincial affairs columnist for The Vancouver Sun and Robert Benzie is the Queen's Park bureau chief for the Toronto Star. Good morning to you all.

ROBERT BENZIE: Good day.

ALTHIA RAJ: Good morning.

VAUGHN PALMER: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Althia Raj, we'll start with you. The prime minister took a day off from his daily briefings on Monday. He was back at it yesterday. This has been an ongoing thing during the course of this pandemic. What stands out to you in terms of what he has said recently or perhaps what he hasn't been saying?

ALTHIA RAJ: Well, there was a lot packaged at yesterday's announcement. What struck me was that for the second week in a row, he started off the week by saying that he recognizes that there are people falling through the cracks when it comes to financial assistance for those who are struggling to make ends meet because of this pandemic. And yet there were again, no details. We know that there are a lot of self-employed Canadians, for example, who may have had, you know, like 50 clients and now are down to one or two. Some people who still have commercial rents to pay, students who had jobs lined up, but they no longer exist. We know that there are a lot of people who are not being helped by the CERB, the Canada Emergency Response Benefit, I believe it's called. The $2000 that is now, that people are now eligible to apply for. And the government's quick fix has been to basically say, well, if you apply for it, but you don't fulfil any of the criteria to actually legally be able to receive this, we're not going to fine you. And that's actually something that all the members of parliament agreed to on Saturday, which is kind of shocking to me and definitely, you know, could there be a more obvious sign that the legislation is faulty and that the program doesn't work uf you have to say that you're not going to fine people and encourage them to use it, even though it doesn't apply for them. So anyway, hopefully, if there is going to be an announcement that later this week to deal with these individuals before this deep sense of unfairness I think sits in with a lot of people that we're speaking to.

MG: In the meantime, Althia, as we heard, Andrew Scheer wants what he said, regular accountability sessions face to face in person, so that he can grill the government and grill the leaders of the government. What is that? We've been talking about what the point of and what the value and the role of the opposition is in this time when this is a national crisis, what does he see as his role right now, do you think?

ALTHIA RAJ: Well, the least generous version of that would be I think vocalized by Elizabeth May, which she did basically suggest that he's using this to get partisan advantage that he wants to face on television so that he can be seen to be firmly questioning the government.

MG: He said on this program that this is not the time for for partisan politics.

ALTHIA RAJ: Yes. But, you know, implementing question period, that only is in-person only for party leaders and while also ensuring that there is accountability for other m.p.'s to participate in virtually and that is not an opinion that is shared uniformly across all 338 members of parliament, I think absolutely there is a need for legislative scrutiny and accountability. But does that mean party leaders and a handful of members of parliament should be travelling to Ottawa and holding sessions that frankly exclude other members of parliament who don't have the ability to lead their ridings? You know, I think as some members in Nova Scotia, for example, who are being told, you know, don't leave the province, if you come back, well you need to quarantine.

MG: Vaughn Palmer in B.C., what are leaders there saying about the federal response? Is it meeting what people are looking for in your part of the country?

VAUGHN PALMER: There's one big significant example of the province trying to hold Ottawa to account and improve its response, and that is around meeting returning Canadians at the airport, making sure they have a plan to self isolate and if they don't, making arrangements for them to go into quarantine. As you know, the prime minister announced that yesterday. Well, way back on April 1st, B.C.'s Health Minister Adrian Dix flagged that problem. He talked about it for three days. Ottawa didn't really respond. Finally last week, Premier John Horgan announced the province was going to start meeting those people at the airport and seeing if they had a proper plan to self-isolate.

MG: So is there a sense out in Vancouver and in British Columbia more broadly that Ottawa has been slow to act on that issue?

VAUGHN PALMER: Very slow, I would say. The Prime minister announced it yesterday. As of yesterday, the B.C. government had already screened 2400 people arriving at Vancouver International Airport and arranged for two dozen of them who did not have proper plans to go into self-isolation. So I think auto was response very, very slow. And it stands out, Matt, because the B.C. government has generally not criticized the federal response, has generally worked with Ottawa, but on this one, I think the national government fell down and was very slow and spoke.

MG: Rob Benzie, it's interesting, Doug Ford, we've been saying, you know, essentially was Justin Trudeau was running against Doug Ford, it seemed like for much of the last federal election. They are now, if not close friends, then certainly there's not a lot of criticism coming from the premier of Ontario to his Ottawa counterparts. Why is that happening?

ROBERT BENZIE: I mean, it's one of these situations, Matt, where you have a Conservative government provincially and a Liberal government federally, and they're working closely as if they had no ideological differences. And I think they've set those aside because of the gravity of the crisis. Premier Doug Ford speaks daily several times a day to Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland. And they are in constant contact about mostly personal protective equipment for frontline health care workers and things like that. Ontario has had some challenges, for example, on its testing for COVID-19. Mr. Ford is not happy with his province's performance on that front and has been a step at ramping up the test. Ottawa has helped a little bit on that front. But I think by and large, they've set aside political differences. And you're right, Prime Minister Trudeau was re-elected in thanks largely to Doug Ford because the Liberals successfully tagged Mr. Ford, who was pretty unpopular last fall, to Andrew Scheer's Conservatives. And that really hurt the federal Tories in Ontario.

MG: Unpopular last fall. This is a very different time and he, doug Ford is receiving a lot of unexpected praise for his handling of this crisis.

ROBERT BENZIE: He's governing. He's being very serious. They're not sitting around talking about buck a beer or gas pump stickers or, you know, blue licence plates, any of the sort of foolishness that they've been sort of bogged down in in the last two years. They've been very much focused on the crisis at hand. Mr. Ford has been receiving deserved kudos, frankly, because he is of listening to the medical experts. Talking to economists, talking to businesses and really working seven days a week to make sure that Ontario's response to this crisis is as is as good as it can be. We have our problems in this province. The long term care situation is a very, very bad one. He's going to be unveiling a plan today to stop. Workers at Long-Term Care Homes working in more multiple facilities to prevent the spread of the virus and hopefully there'll be some other measures in place because we've had about 400 deaths in Ontario and 40 percent of them have been in long term care homes.

MG: Althia, we've seen Jason Kenney in the last couple of days take aim at Theresa Tam. We've also seen him talk about the World Health organisation. Is there a sense that that national unity, we're all in it together could be disappearing or cracks could be forming as people in various provinces look to accelerate in some quarters the response to this pandemic and try to figure out how we're going to get out of it?

ALTHIA RAJ: Well, it's clear that not everybody is singing from the same songbook. Jason Kenney and Chrystia Freeland also seem to have a pretty decent relationship. But Mr. Kenney, who has the experience of being a cabinet minister and also has the confidence to be willing to go at it alone and to, you know, like, for example, you know, weeks ago when the eastern provinces were encouraging Ottawa to use the federal emergency power, as Jason Kenney was one of the individuals saying, you know, we don't need this and we don't want this. And the Liberals in Ottawa had already said they were not going to push for it unless there was unanimity on that issue. So I think that it is absolutely likely that we are going to see Alberta, for example, and other provinces slowly make economic decisions, that that there are local means rather than having a coordinated federal response. And that's not necessarily a bad thing, frankly. What was different I was in the last few days when Jason Kenney is kind of direct attack to Theresa Tam, the country's top doctor. And I think that there is a deep frustration. You know Vaughn talked about it in British Columbia, that the federal government being slow to act when it came to the border, for example, and how, you know, even in February, Ottawa was saying that the threat to Canadians was low. And so I think that while maybe now is not the time for the finger-pointing, that that will certainly appear in the next few months.

MG: Vaughn Palmer, Rob was talking about the long-term care crisis in Ontario. 89 homes at least have reported outbreaks that have claimed at least 120 lives. In B.C. there were outbreaks at seniors residences, most notably perhaps the Lynn Valley Care Centre, but nothing on the scale of what Ontario and what Quebec has seen. Why do you think that's the case?

VAUGHN PALMER: Well, we were very unlucky here initially, and you're right. There were two long term care homes where this thing got loose. And in fact, about two thirds of the deaths here in British Columbia are in long term care. But they did respond and start isolating those homes and isolating the staff as well, making sure they didn't work in both places or more than one place. And it has arrested it to some degree. Now, we still have a lot of deaths here in B.C. I think about almost 5 percent mortality rate, but almost all in long term care. So the province has moved to get control of it, but it is the biggest problem they had out here and it's still the biggest problem other than the outbreak in the federal prison at Mission and the provinces moving special mobile health unit out there to try to help get that get under control or 41 cases in mission. Seven of them are in hospital. And again, it looks like one of those cases in a closed facility where the disease got out of control before they realised what they were doing with dealing with it.

MG: What is your sense, how are people feeling in British Columbia? Because across the country, it seems as though the impression is that B.C. is ahead of the curve in flattening the curve. Yeah. And is that the mood there?

VAUGHN PALMER: Yeah, no, I think that's true. The evidence is that the curve is flattened. If you look at the hospitalization rate here in B.C., it's been flattened for a week now. We're expecting on Friday that the government is going to announce some of the things, you know, that they've decided to do. We have thousands of hospital beds empty. I expect they will start rescheduling some surgeries back in there. So that's true. The irony, of course, is that the provinces deliver the health care system in this country. Ottawa's in charge of the borders and if you're in British Columbia, the place where auto was fallen down is dealing with the one area of its exclusive responsibility. The borders.

MG: Althia, I want to talk about where we're going to go and how, to Vaughn's point, if people are ahead of the curve in some parts of the country, you start to think about opening things up. But if you take a look at that issue of long term care, is Ottawa going to face increasing pressure to address this? Even though those institutions fall under provincial jurisdiction, is there something that Ottawa is going to be asked to do to try and ensure that this doesn't continue to be, in the words of the Ontario premier, a wildfire in those long-term care facilities?

ALTHIA RAJ: Well, basically, the federal government's power at the moment is money, and Justin Trudeau prime minister has announced that Ottawa is willing to help and basically help top up workers pay who live in who rather work in long term care homes. So if the issue is like we know in Quebec, for example, where a premier has said, you know, he needs twelve hundred people, please come out basically like a wartime cry for help. If you have these skills, please come and help us. Ottawa saying, hey, we're going to, we're willing to come and help throw some money at a problem, but in terms of, you know, reorganizing the way a long-term care homes work, that is absolutely exclusively a provincial jurisdiction.

MG: We've been talking about how you start to ease things back towards some sort of sense of normal life. Is that conversation even beginning to happen yet federally, Althia?

ALTHIA RAJ: It's starting to happen, but there's a recognition that until there is the vaccine life, as you see it going back to normal as we know it will not exist. I think what you're seeing across the world is, frankly, I think that Europe is slowly a, you know, kind of bright sun, sunspots as possible. You know, perhaps a lot more local shops could open. But we're still at. This is not gonna happen next week and it's probably not going to happen next month. Of course, the government is thinking about restarting things. I mean, the sad part is the federal government's slow response, even when it comes to federal assistance, which I recognise happens faster than anything the federal government had done previously. Is that some of these measures may get into people's pockets and local businesses, just as some jurisdictions say, well, you know, you can start opening your doors again.

MG: Rob, for you, what's happening in Ontario that would suggest that normal life at the very least is on the distant horizon, if not anywhere closer?

ROBERT BENZIE: Well, yesterday the premier said that he had to be, he has to be cautious. He doesn't want a second wave of COVID-19 to hit it. You know, as we're scaling back up and the economy is picking up again and people are going back to work, they're really concerned about that because they are, they largely feel confident that they've averted the the crisis in hospitals that they were really afraid of. They were really scared that our emergency rooms would be swamped by this. And that hasn't happened. And I think it hasn't happened largely because of physical distancing and people staying home and actually listening to all three levels of government. We have quite onerous penalties here in Ontario. You're not allowed to have a gathering of more than five people. If you're in the park, you face a minimum fine of sort of $750, but fines could go up to $100,000 and jail time if you breach the emergency measures that are in place. So I think there really is a very strange kind of stillness around right now. We all still feel in limbo. And I think everyone would love to get back to work and would love to stop working at home and would love to have their job back if they've lost their job. But I don't see them rushing to do that. I mean, Premier Ford has struck a committee of cabinet to to look at what the economy, how to how to restart the economy when that happens, but we're still very many weeks away.

MG: He's the premier that a year ago was talking about cutting funding to public health. And obviously, these are very different times. Do you think he has a new appreciation for the role that public health plays?

ROBERT BENZIE: Yes, I think I mean, people forget that in the first budget that this government tabled in April, last April, a year ago, they they cut municipal public health funding. Now, led by people like Toronto Mayor John Tory, there was a fight against that and they reinstated some of the funding, but they said the cuts would loom down the road. That's clearly not on the table. And I think that the premier has a new appreciation and his government has a new appreciation for the importance of public health. I think for they were a little bit cavalier about it last year and they kind of thought cut public health, municipal public health. People were spending their time talking about smoking, secession and, you know, calorie counters and things like that in restaurants. And they weren't realising that there were or maybe weren't appreciating that there was a much more serious situation at play.

MG: Vaughn Palmer, just in the last minute or so, do you start to think about what life might look like in your province when we're finally through this?

VAUGHN PALMER: Yeah, I think we're going to get a little bit of indication on that Friday. B.C. released its modelling some time ago, so we're getting new modelling. I think one of the first things they will address is rescheduling a lot of the cancelled surgeries. They cancelled 14000 surgeries here. That was a very tough decision for an NDP government to do that turns out happily. Luckily, we didn't need all those beds in the hospitals. So I think we'll see that on Friday and maybe a few hints. But I agree with what the others are saying. We're a long way from getting rid of physical distancing, from ending washing your hands, from being able to form to being able to stop working from home. That could be weeks away and may be months away.

MG: I hope people continue to wash their hands no matter what, but in the future we will eventually meet face to face. But in the meantime, it's good to have you all on the line. Thank you.

ROBERT BENZIE: Thanks bye-bye.

ALTHIA RAJ: You too. Thanks Matt.

VAUGHN PALMER: Thanks, Matt.

MG: Althia Raj, Ottawa bureau chief for HuffPost Canada. Vaughn Palmer, the provincial affairs columnist for The Vancouver Sun. And Robert Benzie is the Queen's Park bureau chief for the Toronto Star.

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Tom Power in conversation with Matty Matheson

Guests: Tom Power, Matty Matheson

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One, an extended edition of the program. My name's Matt Galloway. We are joined once again by our dear friend and colleague, Tom Power, host of Q on CBC Radio One. Hello, Tom.

TOM POWER: Matt Galloway, how are you, my friend?

MG: Well, it's whatever day it is. I've lost count at this point, but things are just fine. Yourself?

TOM POWER: It's the best November I can remember.

MG: The time flattens itself out in the midst of a crisis like this. You're here to talk about some food issues?

TOM POWER: I am. I'm here to talk about Matty Matheson. Are you familiar with Matty Matheson?

MG: I'm familiar with many of his tattoos.

TOM POWER: Incredible Canadian chef. Great big personality, has a lot to say, has a lot of success online, making, you know, your fried chickens and your burgers and also really like high-end French cuisine. Really amazing chef and he's been making comfort food during this thing. So I caught up with him and we tried to do over a camera like a Zoom meeting, a cooking lesson. And we talked a little bit about how his family is holding up during this time and what he's cooking for his kids home all day. Take a listen.

SOUNDCLIP

TOM POWER: Matty Matheson, welcome to the show.

MATTY MATHESON: Hey. What's up? Good to be here.

TOM POWER: You've been helping me out a lot cause I've been learning how to cook during this time a little bit more. I feel like every time I talk to you, I'm trying something new. Last time I talked to you, I cooked a Thanksgiving turkey. This time, I'm trying to fry chicken by using your video about fried chicken.

MATTY MATHESON: That'll help you out.

TOM POWER: I also made your pancakes.

MATTY MATHESON: Pancakes, they make everyone's life better. Cooking, the thing about it is like everything that I've kind of tried to do in my weird kind of way is you know, I just want people to cook. I want people to have the building blocks. And now is such an amazing time to really connect. Like the amount of people that are making sour dough bread. Everyone's like got a starter going and everyone's making bread. And it's just like it's such an amazing thing to see, you know, like every single person is going live and every single chef is now cooking, has their own cooking show at their house. And it's like but at the real thing of it, like everyone, you need shelter, you need food, and you need the government to come through with a couple bucks right now, you know? And it's just like I hope that people continue to cook, you know, as much as they are right now even, you know, it's really inspiring, actually.

TOM POWER: What have you been cooking at home?

MATTY MATHESON: I've been talking to a lot of stuff. I cooked congee. I cook congee a lot. We make a lot of tacos. We're making a lot of meat and potatoes. And I think that like that in itself is as simple as possible. Like for Easter it was like I smoke a leg of lamb. I made some mashed rutabaga, some freezer peas and some mashed potatoes and gravy, because as chef, I'm like, I don't need to show off to myself. So I'm not trying to do these extravagant, crazy meals. I'm trying to like low impact and I'm just trying to make like the most delicious food with the least amount of impact and time because, you know, with two kids running around and trying to run your business from your AirPods out in the middle of the woods, you don't really have that much time. So I'm just trying to, like make a meat potatoes kind of thing.

TOM POWER: In all seriousness, though, like, what do you think the impact of this is going to be on restaurants?

MATTY MATHESON: What do I actually think?

TOM POWER: Yeah.

MATTY MATHESON: Well, I think that the impact of this pandemic on the restaurant industry in Canada is going to is going to be rough. You know, there's a massive trickle down effect of shutting down an entire industry from, you know, linens, garbage, meat suppliers, vegetable suppliers, farmers, and all of a sudden everything's been halted to such a small, small, small percentage. And to come back some that is going to be very hard where, you know, like people have already put in so much to the restaurants and then to start up a new restaurant again to higher to to train to byproduct and all of a sudden just restaurants magically open again? It's like how do you open up 15 restaurants at once for larger restaurants like, you know, even like ONB. You know, like in Toronto? Like, how do you, they laid off like around like 3000 employees. How do you just magically re-open? That's going to take years to reopen those concepts that have been there for years. And it's just it's really scary. And it's like people aren't just gonna be able, oh thanks, we can go back to work. It's like, okay, we can go back to work in three months, maybe we'll be up. And how long will it take for that farmer to get his vegetables again? Or the fisher folk. How long will it take them to get ys seafood and shellfish? Like, it's like we're gonna have to start the world again. And our industry is is absolutely crippled. And the thing about it, too, that the wild thing is about occupancy and is occupancy going to change? Are we going to and then if occupancy changes, then that means that real estate has to change. And then real estate has to change. Then are people even going to rent to restaurant? Because they can't afford the you. You know, they can say it's like what is going to have to happen to to bring this back, not even to normal this year, bring it back. Like everyone is going to have to bend and remould and be extremely fluid with what is happening. And I really hope that it doesn't just turn to delivery food services.

TOM POWER: It's funny you mention that thoug, about the delivery, because that's what we're being encouraged to do, is to order delivery as much as we can from local restaurants to buy gift cards for like future meals. But is there anything we can really do consumer wise?

MATTY MATHESON: I don't know. It's tough to be like to give my opinion on such a grand scheme of the world. You know, like it's, you know, Make Your Pizza, our pizza company, you know, they're delivering and we're taking a lot of precautions. Even with our staff, we have a van goes and picks up all of our staff and brings them to the restaurants, so then there's no public transport and all that kind of stuff. We're taking, everyone's wearing the gloves and doing everything. Like we're taking so much precautions and it's still bit like it's so nerve wracking to even ask people to do that. You know, like to get a pizza in a time where you've been making a tuna melt for like the 16th day in a row is like it's like you've never been kissed before, you know, and it's a feeling you've never felt before. And the thing about food for me is that, like, I want everyone to do whatever they can. And if the government is gonna help you 100 percent, then you're gonna have to put yourself in risk at a certain amount of time. You know, with professions to make money. I don't know how. Like, what's more important to do to give up? Like, we're out. We're just we're completely out. It is it's just a wild kind of no man's land right now or no. No person's land now. And we're in this blackout zone of like. Yeah, like is this. This is the new future. Look, all these late night people, like all the sudden, this is like, okay, late night could be done from your couch. Jimmy Kimmel, Seth, like all these people. Tom you're the new Canadian, you know? OK. You're the new face of Canadian television. Like this is that.

TOM POWER: If that's if that's happening, that's a really bad sign for the country. Like it's a bad sign of things to come if they're like yeah, Tom. I don't know. Just him. Just try him out.

MATTY MATHESON: Tom. Tom Joe. Pee. The pee man. I like it.

MG: Tom Power's conversation with Canadian chef Matty Matheson. Tom will be back a little bit later on on this extended edition of The Current. The CBC News is next. And then, well, you'd think it would be easier. It turns out that partying online can be just as awkward as doing it in person. We'll get some tips on how to throw the perfect virtual cocktail party. That and more to come in about six minutes time. I'm Matt Galloway. This is an extended edition of The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us and get ready to mingle.

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Hosting virtual cocktail parties in a pandemic

Guests: Chris Deacon, Pamela Rutledge, Misha Glouberman

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to an extended edition of The Current.

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MG: Still to come, she ran a marathon in her hotel room. Now, that sounds impressive enough. Even more so when you learn that there was no treadmill. Meet Shawna Gagne. Coming up at first, all dressed up and no one to Zoom.

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MG: You might think that if there's anyone suited for a world of physical distancing, it would be people who don't like going out much in the first place. Introverts, homebodies, people who are just plain private. Even those of us who prefer to cozy up with a book rather than head out on the town. These should be the best of times. But let's face it, we are all having trouble adjusting and somehow there's still a lot going on. Online cocktail parties, game nights, digital dinners. Who's partaking in all of that? Chris Deacon is a freelance writer in Toronto who's been wrestling with the feeling of knowing that seemingly everyone but her is having an active social life online. Chris, good morning.

CHRIS DEACON: Good morning.

MG: When did you get that sense that maybe you were being left out of what's happening in the virtual world?

CHRIS DEACON: Well, I mean, it was more of a feeling of, you know, the first week, let's say, when social distancing was just we're wrapping our heads around it and suddenly online, everything I read was just how quickly people had adapted and moved their social lives online in such creative ways. You know, like it just felt like everyone was having a dance party or a virtual cocktail party and making quarantine ease. And I was amazed at just how well how much I didn't feel the need to be a part of it personally. But I was also really aware of what I could be missing out on. Like why? What's wrong with me? That I don't want to attend a virtual singalong and, you know, watching people know that that I don't know. So I didn't really want to be a part of that. It kind of made me angst to think that this the world was lighting up with all these activities that I wasn't partaking in.

MG: There's so many things that are just now commonplace that if you said quarantine a month and a half ago, nobody would have known what you were talking about. What do you feel like you're missing out on exactly if all of these things are happening and you're not involved in them?

CHRIS DEACON: Well, I think it's just like it's the possibility of maybe experiencing joy or be a better parent. You know, exposing my kids to some amazing thing that's happening online. It's you know, it's kind of the way I've always felt getting on Facebook. It's kind of like the world's having this 24 hour party and you're not invited. And it just, yeah, it's just a sense of, you know, am I missing out? Like, you know, is there's something really important here that I should be that I should be wanting to be a part of?

MG: Were you were you actually missing out on anything? I mean, were there things happening in your social network with friends or what have you that you weren't sort of like invited to?

CHRIS DEACON: No, I mean, you know, really, this was the first week I didn't have any need to connect virtually. I mean, I even thought it was a bit, you know, gimmicky, almost like, why can't you just text your friends? Why can't you call people? But then like week two, I started to feel OK, I kind of get it. I kind of think I need to see a new face other than my partner, my kids and my dog. And so I did. I did attend my first !Zoom event and it was great.

MG: How did that go?

CHRIS DEACON: You know, it's it was amazing to actually see my friends. I had kind of I had, I think, underestimated how much I missed them, because you kind of enter this little bubble where you're just taking it day by day and you're trying to take care of your family and create structure and you know walk your dog and.

MG: Keep it all together.

CHRIS DEACON: Yeah. So it was really great to see them. You know, it's like the whole the technology does create limitations. You know, it's like you're not, there's no, like, witty repartee. There's, you know, you're kind of waiting to speak. And you each have turn and you try not to monologue. And and you can't you know, I want to kind of lean into my friends and talk with my hands and gesture. And so it doesn't allow for that. But it's definitely, it definitely has a place. So I I became a bit of a convert.

MG: Well, there's so much of these going on and whether it's the cocktail parties, whether it's the virtual sing alongs, whether it's people having a dinner party and they put the laptops on the table and everyone kind of talks to each other as they're eating as though they're together. How have expectations changed do you think, toward attending online gatherings in the last little bit?

CHRIS DEACON: You mean the social expectation for everybody?

MG: Yeah.

CHRIS DEACON: I feel like there is, I think people do it more and more, but I feel like there's different levels of ambition. I mean, I have a friend who is extremely social and she's had five or six full on six way virtual dinner parties. And I can't imagine going that far. That wouldn't interest me. Not yet. Maybe in a month. But I think that there's a lot of people who are making it work for themselves. So whether you just open up your you know, put your iPod on the counter and wander around and let your friends see what your day is like or whether you have a more structured virtual cocktail hour with your best friends, which is more what I do. I do think people are finding ways to connect and I think it's really important right now.

MG: But as you say, you can see people and you can be sort of in that same virtual space, but whether it's because the you know, the computer is lagging, somebody doesn't have as high speed Internet as you do and things are stuttered or you can't actually have the kind of real in-depth, spontaneous conversation that you might have face to face. What's different? And can you talk about the same things that you would if you were sitting face to face or standing around in the same room with your friend?

CHRIS DEACON: Right. I mean, definitely not. I mean, part of the reason you go out with your friends is to talk about all sorts of things, including your partner and your kids, and especially when you're stuck inside with them for four weeks, there's a lot that you want to unload. And my case like it's hard because I'm sitting in my daughter's room with my, you know, balancing my laptop on my knee with my glass of wine. And I'm like, you know, does anyone else have this issue with their teen? And like she's down the hall in her room. So it's really hard to feel comfortable to fully unload. I find myself really monitoring and measuring my voice. And so that really takes away from it.

MG: But as you say there is something about seeing your friends, even if I don't know what week it is now that this has been, but you start to miss people and it is nice to be able to see people face to face.

CHRIS DEACON: It is. That's been a revelation. And it's definitely worth it. It's just a different experience. And it and it requires organization. Like, you know, it's not you do have to, again, like you can't just sail out the door, you know, like you can if you're going to a cafe. So it's you know, you have to put your family on high alert. I'm not going to be available from like 7-8:30. You have to grab your wine and run up and find somewhere to sit and get the right lighting. But it's exciting when one by one you see your friends pop onto the screen. So it's a totally different way of hanging out, but it works.

MG: It'll be nice when this is all over. Won't it?

CHRIS DEACON: It definitely will be nice to go back to yeah, to the cafes.

MG: Chris, thank you.

CHRIS DEACON: Oh, my pleasure.

MG: Chris Deacon is a director and a freelance writer in Toronto. All this talk of hanging out digitally has left me pondering this question, a question posed by the late great Aretha Franklin.

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[Song: "Who's Zoomin Who" by Aretha Franklin]

MG: Aretha knew, as she always did. Why, when people get a Zoom call, can it feel so awkward? It's as though in some ways we've forgotten how to talk, even though we're talking to people that we know. We're just not talking to them face to face. We're talking to them through screen and a camera. Pamela Rutledge is Director of the Media Psychology Research Centre. She is in Newport Beach, California. Pamela, good morning to you.

PAMELA RUTLEDGE: Good morning. Great to be here.

MG: When people are on Zoom or some sort of other video chat, whatever they're using and they feel like the conversation is off, as Chris was saying, you can't have the same kind of conversation that you would face to face. Why is that? What is it that they're feeling?

PAMELA RUTLEDGE: Well, first of all, I want to ask you why you would expect to have the exact same kind of conversation in a completely different environment. In other words, we have one kind of conversation when we have a tete a tete with someone over coffee in person, we have a completely different kind of conversation when we're with them on a phone with no visuals. So what we're having here is a completely different platform we haven't figured out how to use that well. So we aren't used to the nuances and the little physical cues and the pacing of this different environment, the same way people had to adapt to the phone.

MG: Are those the things that we lose? Is that the kind of the information that we would lose in a video chat, especially in a big group, those nuances, those as Chris was talking about, being able to talk with your hands?

PAMELA RUTLEDGE: Well, you can talk with your hands, you just people have to be watching. The thing that is different is that when one person talks, if you can't talk over each other and in my family, that's all they do is talk over each other. So that makes that a little more difficult. But what you can do and what you what video conferencing is good for is that you actually can see people, you can see their faces, you can see their eyes, you can see the expression and because the human brain doesn't make that distinction between face-to-face and virtual. You do transmit emotion in a much better way than you would if you didn't have that visual component.

MG: Tell me about what you'd looking at a grid full of your friends does to a conversation.

PAMELA RUTLEDGE: Well, you know, in one sense, it's quite interesting, but I really like some of the comments that Chris made because what she was really talking about is what she needs from being social and what she's seeing other people do. Which we see all the time. Right. I have friends who go to parties all the time. I'm not that much of a party person. I have figured out in real life how I need to meet my social needs. We are now in a different environment. So we're having to come to terms what's available socially and how does that fit with my particular personality or social needs. And that's really the challenge is how do we set and understand boundaries in an environment where we have to make an arrangement for a phone call? I mean, this is an introverts nightmare, right? Is sort of like what I have to show up at a certain time. And it and we treat them like meetings. And I have to be there for an hour and a half. I just can't check in and say hi. So there's some limitations. If you're someone who is much more private and who recharges, as you know, by withdrawing from other people rather than engaging with other people.

MG: What about that expectation to Chris's point that all of these things are happening, that people are having virtual sing alongs and that there's a dinner party with 32 of your friends and maybe to your point, you're an introvert and you don't feel as though that is the thing that you need, but do you feel an expectation because you keep reading about it on social media, you hear about it on the radio, you see it on television and you feel like you should be part of that?

PAMELA RUTLEDGE: Well, my advice to people is to take stock of what it is that they need. And the first thing you want to do is go try some of these things out to see actually what they do for you. And so as Chris was reporting, it seemed unnecessary. But all these people were doing it. Well, they're people doing things, you know, all the time anyway. Right. There's people out at the bars. These people some. Well, not right now, but I mean, there were right activities all the time. So people had figured out how to make choices. So now you have to figure out what is these things like? How do they feel for me and how do I make choices so that I feel connected? That's one of the challenges that we're all facing, is because we're having this artificial isolation. We are around some people all the time and people that we might otherwise be around. None of the time physically. So we're feeling both the anxiety of constant interaction and the loss of lack of social interaction with people that we also love.

MG: And the fact that this is these interactions are being mediated by technology, which, to your point maybe is something that we're not entirely familiar with. There's a generational part of that as well. But the amount of technology in the way that we're using it now is completely different than in the as they used to say the before time.

PAMELA RUTLEDGE: Well think about a phone call. People with a phone, right? You call somebody, you can call them up. Hey, I just wanted to check in. It can be long or short, but you can walk around with it. You can do other things. So it feels much more integrated in your life. If you sit down to a Zoom with all your friends, you've got your laptop. You aren't wandering around the house. It's unnatural in that sense of social engagement. So there's a real shift in the behaviours that are appropriate to a Zoom call that are quite different from a phone call in a phone call. You're imagining the other person that you have that sense of psychological presence. So you're trying to figure out and Zoom, how do you have that sense of connection across this kind of mediation?

MG: And so if you want to be part of those conversations, I mean, you could pick up the phone and talk to people on the phone that if you want to be part of the Zoom conversations, but to your point, the technology is limiting you. What can you do about that?

PAMELA RUTLEDGE: I think experiment. I have been using Zoom for years. I have regular research meetings with a colleague once a week. We've had for probably eight years that we meet once a week virtually. We're so used to that environment. It's not a problem for us to engage with each other any differently than if we were face to face. We've had to learn how to do that. If it's just a question of practicing and taking what works for you. But what people should not feel is the pressure to do things that are uncomfortable. Experiment. See how it goes. But don't feel like you have to take a resume that invite that comes your way.

MG: What about turning the camera off and just having the audio? You can be part of the conversation, but the camera pointing at you isn't on and therefore maybe you have that freedom to get up and wander around if you want to do that.

PAMELA RUTLEDGE: Oh, I definitely recommend that. Get a picture that you really like. Put that in your profile so that you can go off camera and and do what you need to do and still be connected. Also, it takes a bit of a burden off. If you're sort of shuffling around, you're trying to get other things done, but you still want to have a conversation. So I think there's nothing wrong with that. If people have like I said, they have to get new boundaries, you know, when is it OK to say, I gotta go? When is it okay to say, okay, I'm going off camera, you guys, you know, and if you if you don't feel good about saying that, your friends just say, oh, I'm having trouble with my connection, I'm going to turn my video off and lower the demand on the broadband.

MG: A little white lie never hurt that.

PAMELA RUTLEDGE: Yeah, I mean, self-protection is the name of the game right now. In other words, in our recovery, it's going to be dependent on our mental health at the end of this. Right? How willing we are to sort of re-engage with life. So do whatever makes you feel the most connected, the most protected, the most supported.

MG: Pamela, thank you.

PAMELA RUTLEDGE: My pleasure.

MG: Pamela Rutledge is the Director of the Media Psychology Research Centre. She was in Newport Beach, California. Despite the obvious challenges and limitations of moving social events online, a lot of people are embracing it. People like Kiva Rearden, who turned 33 in late March and held a birthday party on Zoom.

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VOICE: It was truly like four hours before, if even that, I emailed a bunch of friends and was like, hey, if you're free, and everyone said yes. Every time someone new joined the Zoom, I'll be like omg. And some people stayed for, you know, 20 minutes, had a glass of wine and dipped and other people, you know, hung on for like the two hours. And so much of these like this form of communication now is so much just the gesture of it. In a way that kind of reminds me of, like, you know, writing a postcard. You can't actually put in a lot of information in a postcard. They're weirdly public, like a mail person could just flip it over and read it, but it's the gesture of actually getting it that really means something. And I think that's sort of how I felt about this as well. Like noone discussed anything super profound and you know, like no new friends were made. That's always a marker if I have a party and people afterwards are like, oh, hey, I'm hanging out with so-and-so or I asked so-and-so on a date and like, oh, that was a good party. You know, people really connected. There obviously wasn't that, but the gesture of checking in and and spending a bit of time with me in any kind of way really made me feel like people wanted to hug me, even though no one can hug anybody.

MG: Kiva Rearden is a film curator with the Toronto International Film Festival, whose birthday was in late March. Happy belated birthday, Kiva. Misha Glouberman threw an online birthday party of his own recently. He says it wasn't half bad and he has some ideas on how to host a good online party. He is a communication facilitator in Toronto. Misha, good morning to you.

MISHA GLOUBERMAN: Hey Matt, how you doing?

MG: I'm great, thanks. Give us a sense of what it would have been like to attend your birthday party. What was it like?

MISHA GLOUBERMAN: Well, it's interesting. I mean, I think one thing that Kiva was just saying, I mean, a lot of things people were saying, one thing that people are saying was that it's really frustrating having everyone in a grid. And I agree. And so I worked and as you mentioned, this is my job to think about things like this. So I was like, I really overengineered this. So I was like, okay it's my job to figure out how to or meaningful and useful connections to people. What can I do for this? And one thing was that I think the main thing that people named was that it's really socially unsatisfying to be in a to look at a grid of 25-30 people. It's awkward and it's hard. And so what I did what I worked on really hard at my birthday party was figure out how to help people not have that experience. And so we spent some of our time in that big group, but a lot of our time was spent in smaller groups, just like you would do at a big cocktail party. You show up and everyone's there, but then you get in the group of two, three people, two, three, four people. You talk with those people for a while and you talk to another group. You leave that group, maybe you stay with the same people.

MG: So at a cocktail party, you can do that because there's that person over there, I'm going to wander over. And then the conversation kind of drifts and I wander over here. How do you do that through technology like Zoom?

MISHA GLOUBERMAN: So there's a couple ways to do it. The first part is Zoom has a feature that some people use a lot and some people don't, which is called breakout rooms. They call them rooms, but I think it's kind of the wrong metaphor. You honestly have to think about them as rooms, you should think of them as groups. And what happens is if you go into a Zoom breakout room, if you're in a group of 30 people, you basically just click a button and all of a sudden you're in a group of three. 27 of the people disappear and now you're just talking to three of them or two of them or four of them, whatever size group you want. And so suddenly you can have the kinds of conversations that I think, like Pamela was saying, where she was like, or I think Chris was saying like, oh, you sort of have a witty repartee and make jokes. And you're not waiting your turn. You have a much more small conversation like you do at a real party. So the breakout groups help with that. That's part of it.

MG: The other part, you wrote a Medium post on this. There's a couple of things that are really interesting. One is you're talking about sort of seeding the conversation, asking people what they want to talk about, which is not something generally that you do at a cocktail party. You don't say, well, we're gonna have a party. And here's what we're going to discuss in the course of three or four hours. Why would you do that in this format?

MISHA GLOUBERMAN: I think my thinking was that when we go to a cocktail party or a dinner party, we actually have those structures. They're just not explicit because we know what a cocktail party is. We know what a dinner party is over. Over the course of, you know, decades of our lives, we've basically received those instructions. When you go to a Zoom cocktail party, you maybe been to one or two in your life, so you don't know what the rules are. So having the host say, here's some things to talk about, and to be clear. I was really gentle. I was like I put people in groups and say, here's the thing, if you want to you can talk about this. If you want to, you can talk about something else altogether. But having picked because we don't have that lifetime of norms and norms and rules behind us, we kind of wanted to create them on the fly and so that's one of the things.

MG: What else can you do to make these things work? These things that again, six months ago we would have said, well, no, I'm not going to do that, I'm going to go and meet you face to face.

MISHA GLOUBERMAN: So I think a really huge thing is getting those people in small groups. The other thing I want to make clear too is no one has to go to this. I mean, listening to Chris like and listening to Pamela like this might not be something you want to do. And that's great. Just like a cocktail party. Some people love cocktail parties. Some people don't you hate them. Don't go. And if you don't feel like going to zoom, don't go. But in terms of making the stuff work out a part of having this break as the thing that I wrote about in the medium article, which is, um, it's a sort of fancy trick that probally goes beyond it. We can explain on the radio and if you can make the article available to listeners is to say that there's ways that you can actually make the breakout rooms so that people can actually move fluidly between them. And that's the thing that Xoom doesn't make easy. But at a real cocktail party, not only to consume, what you can easily do is just put people in groups and they're in these groups who are sort of stuck in those groups and stuff. But what I figured out how to do was let people actually create groups in such a way where they could see who was in the other groups and move between them, even more like a cocktail party.

MG: That's a lot of work.

MISHA GLOUBERMAN: For me?

MG: Yeah.

MISHA GLOUBERMAN: Yeah, it was a lot of work for me. But anyone else can read my article and then it's like 10 minutes work, which again, is a lot less work. I mean, throwing a cocktail party is a lot of work, too. And I would say throwing a Zoom cocktail party is gonna be a lot less work. Like you don't have to clean your house. You don't have to make snacks. Maybe take you a half an hour, you know it'll take you fifteen minutes to read my article. Another fifteen minutes to get the things done. Half an hour to set up a cocktail party?Not really that much work.

MG: In these weird times what's the benefit of throwing these online parties or being part of them do you think?

MISHA GLOUBERMAN: Oh, I mean there's a couple benefits. I mean, just in general. I mean, I think as both Chris and Pamela have said, like whatever people need to do right now to feel more connected and less isolated, it's incredibly important. It's important to how we feel. It's also important in terms of being able to if you actually want to flatten the curve, you've got to stay in and you got to find ways to stay in that are going to work for you. So finding ways to socialize is important for people's mental health, but it's also important that their physical health is what's going to make it possible for people to stay.

MG: And if you're an introvert and you want to get out of it again at a normal party, you can just ghost where you say goodbye to the person you're talking to and suddenly you're out the door and you haven't said goodbye to everybody else. How do you politely dip out of the virtual party?

MISHA GLOUBERMAN: I think you can in just all the same ways. Because I mean one thing I think everyone should understand is everybody's got a lot of really competing commitments right now. So saying that I have to go seems like a really reasonable thing to say. It might be a tiny bit awkward, but it's a tiny bit awkward in real life too. It's always hard to say to someone I'd rather be doing something else than be at your party right now. That's true online and it's true in real life. But, you know, I think people are able to.

MG: We'll make people aware of the Medium post. In the meantime, happy belated birthday.

MISHA GLOUBERMAN: Thank you so much. It was great to talk to you.

MG: Misha, thank you. Misha Glouberman is a communications facilitator and coach in Toronto. How has this worked for you? Are you having virtual hangouts? Are you meeting up with people in ways that perhaps you never would have otherwise? How has it worked? Has it been a disaster? Virtual singalongs, birthday parties? Let us know. You can reach us cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the contact link or send us a tweet @The Current.CBC. Coming up next on the program, when isolatinn at home is not an option. We have been told social distancing, physical distancing is key to flattening the curve. That is not available to everyone. We'll speak with how Canadians who are homeless are coping in the midst of this pandemic and what is being done in some of the country's biggest cities to address the obstacles they face. I'm Matt Galloway. We're back in 90 seconds on this extended edition of The Current. Stay with us.

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COVID-19 highlights decades of failure to help homeless, but is also a chance for change, says advocate

Guests: Jeremy Hunka, Andrew Boozary

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. For more than a month now, canadians have been told to stay home. That order doesn't really work for Michael Moore because right now Michael lives on the streets of Winnipeg.

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VOICE: Well, there's nothing we can do about it. Like the streets are hard out here, man. You've got to stick together or else you aint going to have nothing. I mean, it's what I'm subject to, right? So there's no on the spot house for Michael, right? So there's no on the spot separate little room for me, like you know, so I'd rather stay warm with my friends than sit alone in God knows where. You have to do what you gotta d, to get by, like coronavirus or not. Like it's what we've got on the streets, you know, like.

MG: Michael Moore is not alone. Hundreds of thousands of Canadians do not have a home, and self isolating is largely not an option for them. And shelter beds can be difficult to find as well at the best of times. That leaves Canada's homeless very vulnerable right now. Jeremy Hunka is a spokesperson for the Union Gospel Mission. It's an organization in Vancouver's downtown East Side that provides meals, shelter and outreach to people in need. Jeremy, good morning.

JEREMY HUNKA: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What are you seeing on the streets of the downtown east side these days?

JEREMY HUNKA: You know what it's hard on the best of times, but right now it's extremely difficult. We're seeing not only, you know, a crisis upon a crisis point, a crisis which is generally what we see when people are struggling and struggling with homelessness, poverty and addiction. But we're now seeing an emotional and extra emotional physical toll of people worried, concerned about the virus. And also on top of that. We're seeing many more people because more people are seeking help because they were recently laid off due to COVID-19. They don't have a safety net. And we're seeing other organizations or services that were once open, forced to scale back or close because it COVID-9. So you have a concentration of more people asking for help and have fewer options for them to go. And then you have this incredible emotional and physical toll. I mean, people who are on the street are have nowhere to go. Like there is literally in the public all the time. They're at risk 100 percent of the time. So it's really hard right now.

MG: Do you have, we've been talking about testing across the country and we've spoken as well about testing in the downtown east side. Do you have a sense as to how many confirmed cases of COVID are there in that population?

JEREMY HUNKA: So the health authority in Vancouver isn't confirming publicly cases per in different areas of the city, they're instead going by health region. So we don't have a great idea of how many cases there may or may not have been confirmed. We do, however, I mean, there was I believe one of your colleagues at CBC spoke to another shelter. That's not too far from us in Downtown Eastside that did confirm on the record that they did have a case of COVID-19. But we've been assuming for weeks that it's here. I mean the best thing for us is to just assume that it's here for plan for the worst, hope for the best, but make sure that, you know, we're not naive, that it's not in the community. It is.

MG: It is a very dense community and part of that's because of the location and gentrification, which has kind of squeezed people into a smaller and smaller area. And so the idea of physical distancing can be very hard to come by. How has your organization changed the way that it delivers services during this crisis?

JEREMY HUNKA: We've changed everything. So, first of all, we served, you know, hundreds and hundreds of meals every day. But we have closed our dining hall because we can have hundreds of people gathering in one place and we're serving meals out the door to go. We've actually scaled up the number of meals that we're giving because we need to cover the gap left by other organizations that had to beg and can no longer offer what they're doing then. And when it comes to social distancing outside and inside our shelter, we've spread out our shelter. It's not only in several rooms, but on separate floors. People sleeping head to toe. And then we have things like chalk markers on the pavement outside. So people are waiting for a meal. We don't want them stand close together. And then our staff are wearing personal protective equipment.

MG: I was going to say, do you have that equipment? We keep hearing about the need for it on the front lines and you're right there on the front lines. Do you have the equipment that you need?

JEREMY HUNKA: Yeah. Yeah. No, you're right. I mean, I will note that when most of the country is being told to stay at home, our frontline staff workers are working on the frontline during a pandemic. So we do have some personal protective equipment. Those have come in. In some cases we say we sewed masks ourselves to give us what we needed to get through a couple of weeks. Now we have masks, face shields. But it's so that adds another layer of complication because people in Downtown Eastside. There isn't always a lot of warmth to this kind of can be kind of clinical when they go to organizations. So now we want to serve them with love and dignity. But it's you know, it would take a little more effort to do that when you're wearing a face mask and a face shield. Go ahead.

MG: I was going to say have a listen to ecause we can talk about what's going on. Have a listen to Chris Livingstone, who is a resident of the Downtown Eastside, who's been homeless in the past, is involved in the community now as an outreach worker. Here he is describing what life is like in the community right now.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: I remember the cumulative effects of not sleeping and not eating right and that we're eventually it was kind of like walking around in a bug. And that brings me to think about what's actually happening now and it's really compounded it worse. It seems like it's like a hundred percent worse because there's no place to sit down. There's no place for us to shower. There's more all the organizations are kind of really stuck having to adjust to not opening spaces or letting people in.

MG: We're all feeling that anxiety across the country, but the way that that Chris talks about the community that he knows so well adds a layer to that. What are you hearing from the people that you serve about how they're coping?

JEREMY HUNKA: You know, it's a mix. There's a mix of emotions. There's some fear, there's some worry. There's, you know, people are not only struggling because there's fewer options for them to get help, but then they're also worried about the virus and there are more tensions. And that's human nature when things are hard. There's more tension. There's more stress. So we're seeing is it's only been a month, as you mentioned. It's already taking a terrible toll on people. And that's you know, it's up to us. It's up to us, the rest of the country to help. These are our most vulnerable, vulnerable people who have very few options. And like Chris said, they have nowhere to go. When people don't have a place to sit down at all, like they don't even have a place to go and rest for a few moments when they're homeless in the Downtown Eastside right now, it's really, really hard.

MG: What is it that the authorities in Vancouver could do more to help that community?

JEREMY HUNKA: I mean, there's large scale stuff that's that's being done and that we're heartened by and hopeful for. They have they've they've they have a couple of community centres that are now open to people who are almost to help to help self isolate. They have set 900 hotel rooms throughout the province. These are great things. These are awesome things. But they're but at the same time, I say that I'll say that that's not rolling out fast enough. And that and the need is still far greater than the response. There's, you know, close to 8000 people in just in B.C. that are homeless. There's 35000 across the country on any given night who are homeless. So our response to this really vulnerable population right now across the country is not even close to being there. People have no option. And this is a is another virus that could really devastated, devastate the community because many people are already living with pre-existing health conditions. We've got to be there for them. We need to step up as Canadians to do better. That we're all they've got.

MG: Appreciate you telling us about the situation that you're facing and thanks for the work that you're doing, Jeremy.

JEREMY HUNKA: Thanks Matt.

MG: Jeremy Hunka is a spokesperson for the Union Gospel Mission. We reached him in Vancouver. My next guest says the governments need to act faster to help the homeless, who, as you heard from Jeremy, are at increasing risk of COVID-19. Dr. Andrew Boozary is the executive director of health and social policy at Toronto's University Health Network. Doctor, good morning to you.

ANDREW BOOZARY: Good morning, Matt.

MG: When you hear Jeremy Hunka describe the situation in Vancouver in the downtown east side, what goes through your mind?

ANDREW BOOZARY: You know, it's it's hard to hear. I mean, I think that the way he described the mix of emotions, the fear, I think it can resonate across the country for individuals who've been experiencing homelessness, but I think the thing that it really does for me is that, you know, we've known about the perils of homelessness and not having housing, not being able to attain health without housing for decades. These are these are the conditions that we have imposed on people. And these are the health outcomes with major gaps. And we have accepted and what COVID-19 is doing is blowing the top off our ability to ignore this anymore. And I think, you know, just huge gratitude. And respect for the courage shown by the frontline workers across shelters across the country and the courage of the residents having to figure out, as mentioned earlier on the show, what they can do to protect themselves.

MG: What do you know, I was going to say, what do you know about how many confirmed cases there are in Toronto's homeless population? It was difficult for Jeremy to get those in those numbers because it's not being regionalized in British Columbia. What about here in Toronto?

ANDREW BOOZARY: My latest understanding from Toronto Public Health is that it is now 30 cases across seven shelters.

MG: And what are your fears when it comes to that population and this virus?

ANDREW BOOZARY: I mean the fears are major. I mean, I think when you look at the reality is that as people and as advocates and activists and government officials have stated that, you know, shelters are not the policy solution for homelessness, housing is the same way that food banks aren't. And people are in really have been, you know, what we call vulnerability, but they've been structurally disadvantaged by decisions that we have as a society have decided are adequate living conditions. But that is now being exposed. The fact we have a population that has worn and borne the brunt of the disease burden in terms of chronic disease and other health impacts with shorter life expectancies and now real challenges about how they can even remotely physically distance or having even the right to housing and the right to health. So this is coming up in terms of everything is colliding. There is an understandable fear. I think there needs to be collective effort across everyone, all hands on deck to be able to ensure that this population has a semblance of protection and that we can actually start to move to a more lasting solution.

MG: What specifically, you signed an open letter along with doctors and health care workers to municipal and provincial authorities asking them to do more when it comes to the homeless population in the city of Toronto, but beyond as well. What specifically are you looking for in the short term?

ANDREW BOOZARY: I mean, I supported the letter of understanding from physicians and nurses. You know, I think that they've raised the specific pieces around ensuring that there is adequate physical spacing, that there is housing and hotels, and that shelters are not going to be the solution that can allow this to happen. And that there needs to be acts to ensure and there needs to be more more action to get individuals the spacing that they deserve. And, you know, I think on that piece, you know, the city and others are trying to mobilize these efforts. But I think the one pieces that we know that we can't go back to homelessness. You know, this has been asking to go back. To accept a discriminatory policy against people living in poverty. And so I think, yes, we've got to move towards safe solutions now to get people isolation if they've tested positive or if they're waiting for results. These, you know, individuals experiencing this deserve the same protections as anybody else because we're telling everyone else that their loved ones. But there also needs to ensure that we're putting things in place that we don't go back. These situations of shelters are going back to these situations where people don't have housing because we're gonna be in this situation again. And all that means and is we as a society have accepted the same poor outcomes when we hopefully get through this together.

MG: Do we have the data that would allow us to to make those decisions? You tweeted out a map showing the incidents of COVID cases by neighbourhoods in the city of Toronto. And there's been some resistance from the provincial medical officer of health to collecting, for example, race based data when it comes to who's being affected, because we know that specific communities are being disproportionately affected, black, brown, indigenous communities in particular. Do we have the data to be able to make those long term decisions that you're talking about?

ANDREW BOOZARY: No. And it is damning. It is. It is absolutely furthers the discrimination against brown, black indigenous communities and racialized communities that we know from every study from every examination of health outcomes are the ones who have the poorest, who have been receiving, you know, the least adequate resources, and we know this from international examples from our own. This has been a willingness of wilful ignorance to better understand how those disparities come across postal code.

MG: A wilful ignorance. Pardon me, but you said a wilful ignorance?

ANDREW BOOZARY: Yeah. Well, you can't have people step up in leadership roles and say all lives are equal. I mean, that is to me, anti-public health. We know from the literature that we know from every example and throughout history that that is that is not true in terms of the burden that different populations face. That, again, that is not random. You know, this is not coincidence that Cauvin, 19, is affecting our most disadvantaged populations, whether it's in Long-Term Care Homes, whether it's in shelters, whether it's individuals who are racialize and working in low paid jobs and underpaid jobs. These are the decisions that we have made over time that have put people have exposed people to risk chronically and now COVID-19, is adding that acute stressor to the situation that I think that everyone cannot feel comfortable about. And I think that's where I think we need to see collective action that we're not in this position again.

MG: In the midst of this there's a very active conversation about how we, you know, plug things back in and turn the economy back on and how we need to get back to normal life. What are your concerns about the timing around that and what would happen if we were to do this too soon? Specifically around the populations that you're speaking about.

ANDREW BOOZARY: Yeah, I mean, I think this is just trying to weigh the calculus of which lives have value. I mean, the fact that we know that. Half the deaths are happening or the cases are happening in Long-Term Care Homes that we know that there's increasing cases amongst our most vulnerable. And the decision from individuals who, you know, again, there's real economic implications of this is a real follow. But the fact that we're going to try to put the economy over people, you know, you cannot have you cannot disentangle public health from the economy. If we continue to move along with the society, with people that are sick, we will never be able to call ourselves a rich or advanced nation. And if we also put himself up, we won't actually restart the economy at the expense of poor people, at the expense of individuals living in poverty and older Canadians. We can never say that we're actually a healthy country. You know, and I think that is to me the decision that we have to face with. We have to, of course, be informed by science, be informed by the testing and the data to ensure that we all want the economy to go back to where it's been. And it's not better than ever. We know that income is a major determinate health, if not the greatest attribute of health. And the more and more that we suffer economically, there are also health implications. But we can't just say, you know, if there's not COVA cases that are impacting a certain strata of society, then, you know, let's open it all up. I mean, that is just we are going to be judged by how we protect the most vulnerable coming through this crisis and through this pandemic. And if we make myopic decisions on the economy, I think it's something that we all have to wear.

MG: Andrew, great to talk to you. Thank you.

ANDREW BOOZARY: Thanks Matt.

MG: Dr. Andrew Boozary is the executive director of health and social policy at Toronto's University Health Network. He was in Toronto.

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This Royal Canadian Navy officer did a full marathon in her hotel room — without a treadmill

Guests: Shawna Gagne

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway. If you run marathons, you know that every step is a bit of a head game. You have to draw on some sort of inner voice to keep pushing, keep putting one foot in front of the other, even if your body is hurting, even if you feel like you just want to stop. I'd say that that is especially true for this runner.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound of Shawna Gagne running a marathon in isolation]

MG: It's hard to hear, but that is the sound of a woman who's running her first marathon without a treadmill in isolation. Shawna Gagne is a Petty Officer, first-class with the Royal Canadian Navy. She's on the line now from Halifax. Shawna, good morning.

SHAWNA GAGNE: Good morning. How are you?

MG: I'm great, thanks. Where did you run this marathon?

SHAWNA GAGNE: Right now, we're sequestered in the Westin Hotel. The crew and I ran it in my hotel room.

MG: On a treadmill, right?

SHAWNA GAGNE: No, no, I ran it, actually, in my room because we're sequestered. We're not allowed to leave our room because we have to maintain our health in case Canada calls upon us. So I was sitting here looking in my room thinking I could probably do this. And I ran right in the room from the door to the window, back and forth.

MG: Are you in the room right now?

SHAWNA GAGNE: I am.

MG: Can you give me a sense, I mean, I dont know if you're standing up, walk like from the door to the window as we're talking, and tell me how long it would take for you to walk from the door to the window just so we can get a sense as to how big the room is.

SHAWNA GAGNE: Sure. So I just started to walk right now, and I'm already at the door and now I'm walking back and I'm actually at the window now. I paced it out and it's about 25 feet from the door to the window.

MG: And you ran a marathon on that patch, back and forth, back and forth?

SHAWNA GAGNE: I may have to replace the carpeting here now that I'm done.

MG: I was about to say, have you have you left a mark?

SHAWNA GAGNE: I have. You can see it trail. So I'm hoping it's not from me; that it was from former people who stayed here.

MG: Where did this idea come from? Why would you want to do something like this?

SHAWNA GAGNE: Well, I just— I love running. This has never been my calibre running, honestly. I just do 10 km, 12 km. And I was here in the room, and like I said, we're sequestered, total isolation. We're not allowed out of our rooms. Were not allowed drop offs, no visitors, nothing. And I was looking outside and I could see everybody's still running and I wanted to run so badly. And I looked around my room and I thought, 'OK, I could probably make this happen.' I'm used to adapting to small spaces because I'm working on the. And I just looked at it and I thought, I'm going to give it a try. And I just wanted to I wanted to push myself to see if I could do it.

MG: And you'd never run a marathon before?

SHAWNA GAGNE: No, this was actually my second one that I had done. I was training for the Bluenose Marathon, but because it was delayed due to the COVID-19, I woke up one day — nine days, ago, actually, 29th of March — I woke up and I said, I think I'm going to try a marathon today. So in my subdivision, I had been training in a 4.69 km loop, and that's where I did the first one. So doing this here in the hotel was even that much more important to me because it was such a small, confined space. So this has been a big accomplishment in my life doing it here.

MG: How long did it take you in the hotel room to run 42.2 kilometres?

SHAWNA GAGNE: It took me six hours, actually, to do it. You can't obviously get much speed and the pivoting, because it's such a small space and you have to pivot a lot, my knees were sore. So I just had to keep pushing through it and thinking, 'OK, I can do this. You know, I've only got 20 more kilometres. I've only got 18 more kilometres.' So that's how I did it.

MG: When you run, I don't know whether you listen to things or what have you, but how did you keep your mind distracted from the fact that you were essentially running back and forth and back and forth and back and forth in a hotel room?

SHAWNA GAGNE: So honestly, I put on the news. I actually had CBC News on, and because I started so early in the morning, it was like the day before news. And then when the day starts, the current news of that day comes on, so I was able to watch a few hours of news and then after that, I put some music on to run.

MG: What was the hardest part of it all? Aside from the fact that there wasn't really much space, you couldn't get up any speed and as you said, your knees hurt because you had to turn every few seconds.

SHAWNA GAGNE: I think just keeping my mind focused because the pain in my knees was quite a bit. And because it's so small, I was just. Okay, you can do this. You can you can get this done. So it was really my mind over matter, which was the hardest point. And being able to see outside when I'd arrive at the window really helped me because I'd see the other runners out there in the nice weather, and it was such a big goal for me to do this for my personal reasons that was what just kept me going.

MG: How did you feel when you were done?

SHAWNA GAGNE: Oh, I started crying because I was like, I can't even believe that I did this. You know, in a hotel room, who would've thought? I never, ever expected in my life that I would be standing there saying I completed a marathon, a full marathon in a hotel room. I was in tears — tears of joy.

MG: I don't know when you tell family, it's a huge accomplishment — and congratulations — because running a marathon, it doesn't matter where you do it, running a marathon is a really hard thing to do. When you tell your family about this, how did they react?

SHAWNA GAGNE: They were just blown away. They were so proud of me. I have received so many words of encouragement and congratulations from my shipmates, other members of the RCN, my family, friends. Everybody has just been reaching out to me. It's been so inspiring. Their words have kept me going and made me feel so proud of what I've done.

MG: Just briefly, tell me, you run virtually with your husband, is this correct?

SHAWNA GAGNE: I do. So he is currently deployed as well on HMCS Fredericton. He is overseas. So we like to work out together, and because he's deployed, he will message me on Messenger or an e-mail or something and tell me that he's going to go for a run. So I will go for a run at the same time. That way we can continue to support each other working out and keeping fit, even though he's on the other side of the world. We're both in the same kind of situation, but he's on the ship right now.

MG: And you're heading out to sea tomorrow?

SHAWNA GAGNE: That's correct. We leave the hotel tomorrow and then right to the ship and then we're out to sea.

MG: Do you know how long you'll be out for?

SHAWNA GAGNE: I do not at this time.

MG: Does being in the situation that you're in now prepare you for what you're about to go out into? I mean, it's a different kind of, not isolation, but a different kind of confinement in some ways.

SHAWNA GAGNE: Absolutely, I mean, it was challenging, I'm sure, for all of us in here at one point or a time. But being away from our families and I guess, we're kind of isolated on the ship, but we're still together. But that's something we do all the time and we train for that. And I'm not saying that it's easier for us. That's just our job. It's how we serve Canada. So us being in here, being away from everybody, we're serving Canada right now so that when we're called upon, the whole crew is is healthy. Of the two ships — because our two ships in here — we're fit, we're healthy, and we know we can go and respond to anything like the example of there was a natural disaster that happened within Canada or just the support, the response to the spread of the COVID-19. We're ready to go.

MG: You have to figure out what your next race is going to be.

SHAWNA GAGNE: Oh, my goodness.

MG: Perhaps on a road, not in a hotel room.

SHAWNA GAGNE: That would be lovely.

MG: Best of luck. Good luck when you're out and congratulations again on this race. It's something that you will never forget. Shawna, thank you.

SHAWNA GAGNE: Thank you so much. Have a great day.

MG: Petty Officer first-class Shawna Gagne is with the Royal Canadian Navy. She was in her hotel room in Halifax where she ran a marathon. Congratulations to her. The Current is back in about six minutes time. We're going to talk about, we've seen so much change in our life, we'll talk about change at the end of life and how Canadians are adjusting to the way we hold funerals in this era of physical distancing. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Stay with us.

[Music]

How COVID-19 is affecting bereaved families and the funeral industry

Guests: Tom Power, Catherine Reitman, Tamara Levitt

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to an extended edition of The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Still to come, from creating costumes to making medical equipment, how one business is switching gears to help out. But first, grieving the loss of a ritual.

[Music: Theme]

MG: You know that dealing with the death of a family member or a dear friend is always painful, but now, because of this coronavirus, people are struggling with being unable to grieve in the way they need to and the way that perhaps they're used to. Reza Notiar's father died from COVID-19 at the end of March. Here's the Edmonton optometrist describing how he had to honour his father, Abubakr Notiar.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: I had to FaceTime his funeral so that I could participate in the prayers and the other difficult part that day, my girls that are 10-year-old and 12-year-old, Noor and Safa, I had to tell them of the passing of their grandfather from 10 feet away. And then I had to request that they hug each other because I couldn't hug them. So it's been a challenge, but these were God's wishes, and we're thankful that he went in peace.

MG: Funerals, like so much of our lives, have evolved radically in just a matter of weeks. Tabassum Wyne helped organize her father in law's funeral. It took place in mid-March, just days after the World Health organization declared COVID-19 a pandemic. Tabassum is on the line with us now. Good morning.

TABASSUM WYNE: Hi, Matt. How are you?

MG: I'm OK. I'm sorry for your loss.

TABASSUM WYNE: Thank you so much.

MG: Tell me about organising your father in law's funeral and marching and some of the challenges that you face that you may not have faced in times past.

TABASSUM WYNE: Well, my husband took care of the funeral arrangements, but I was involved. I do remember that when he went to the mosque, he made the arrangements and we were told that we were only allowed to have 200 people at the funeral. And the funeral was scheduled for Monday, March 16th. And at that time, the recommendation was for gatherings of 250 people were not to take place. So the mosque recommended that we only have 200 people. And even at that point, with the COVID-19 scare, even 200 people with a lot to us. So we only ended up telling our really close family and friends. And I believe we only had about less than 50 people attend the funeral. And even that we were still hesitant about that because of this COVID-19 scare.

MG: We were hearing in that little clip from Reza Notiar talking about the difficulty in balancing tradition and these new rules. What was that like in your situation?

TABASSUM WYNE: Yeah, for sure. Like funerals, you want them to be large. So then the deceased person gets all the prayers that I've won, I've won brings along with them. Right. So when funerals are are not able to happen like in that clip, it's really heartbreaking because knowing that your loved one that has passed away isn't getting those prayers for them, which will which could help them get into heaven. That's heartbreaking. And then also typically after the funeral, friends and family would come visit. And with my father was passing. You didn't have that. We had like my remember, my mother in law had scheduled a gathering for the day after the funeral. And I remember waking up that morning and having to tell my husband, I'm like, I don't feel comfortable going. And I'm thinking to my mother in law, I cancelled it. But I was like, I think it's just everyone remain safe. Yeah. It's very it's a very difficult time with the grieving process as well. Because I feel sad for my husband and his mum and two sisters. They they haven't been able to be with their family and their friends during this time and that really helps with the grieving process for sure.

MG: But just being around people and being able to give somebody a hug.

TABASSUM WYNE: Yes, for sure. Yes. That really helps. And it's it's been a very difficult time. And that clip made me very sad, knowing that he had to watch his father's funeral on Skype or Zoom, whatever it was.

MG: Was your family understanding of I mean, again, this is such a bewildering time for all of us. But when you go through that grieving process, it's like the world has fallen out from under your feet. What was your family understanding of of how the rules were changing and the situation was changing?

TABASSUM WYNE: I do remember my husband called me from the mosque and said we can only have 200 people attended. And even at that time, I'll take that a lot. So I immediately called my brother in law with a physician and he recommended that we keep it keep the funeral attendees at a minimum. So I remember my mother in law had a few friends over at her house grieving with her and I pulled her aside and my sister in law.And I was like, this is a recommendation from my brother. The physician is strongly recommending that we don't have the 200 people. And I was like. I mean, it feels like this is your decision at the end of the day, because it's there. If they're law. So they did say that they wanted the 200 people. And I think at that time they were grieving. And I think at that time, you don't really. You don't really fully comprehend the situation because you're only thinking about the disease first, not that time. So I know my husband and I. We spoke about it and we only sent these details to our closest people. And I know for myself, my dad was very good friends with my father in law. And I did not want my father to attend the funeral because I wanted to protect him. He has underlying health conditions as well.

MG: That's really hard.

TABASSUM WYNE: It was so hard and I really didn't want him to attend. I told all my brother it was like, I don't I don't want my dad to come. And then like, we went to the funeral and just I was about to my my disease followed them. My dad tapped me on the shoulder. I just I lost. I was like, oh, it was I didn't want him to be there, but I did. I needed him to be there. So, yeah, it was a difficult day for sure.

MG: When we get through all of this and we're on the other side, are there plans that you have to remember your father in light in a more traditional way, but in the way that this would have happened, you know, a few months ago, where people can be gathered together and people can gather and they can remember a life and also be with each other.

TABASSUM WYNE: For sure. Yeah, definitely. And I think going to be holding something at my house, especially for my husband. I don't feel like he got to grieve properly. So I will be putting something together for my husband, for him to gather with his friends, to remember his father. Even my in-laws, I know my mother-in-law will most likely be hosting something. But only when. Only when everything is clear. You don't want to put anyone in any situation where anyone's at risk or anything. I think it will definitely help with the grieving process.

MG: It's just decisions that you have to make that you would have never expected to have to make otherwise.

TABASSUM WYNE: Not at all, no.

MG: It's great to talk to you about this. And again, I'm sorry for what your family has been through. Thank you for explaining this.

TABASSUM WYNE: Thank you very much, Matt.

MG: Tabassum Wyne lost her father-in-law last month. She is the founder of the Muslim Advisory Council of Canada and was in Milton, Ontario. After four decades in the funeral business, Gerry Lougheed could not have fathomed the kind of changes he'd see in his industry in such a short time. Gerry is Director of the Lougheed Funeral Homes in Ontario. Gerry, good morning to you.

GERRY LOUGHEED: Good morning, Matt.

MG: You're hearing there what Tabassum is describing in terms of how the grieving process has changed dramatically for her and for her family. How has the work that you've done as a funeral director been affected by COVID-19?

GERRY LOUGHEED: Overwhelming. Those were powerful voices that will define exactly the challenges of being able to meet Mauney needs. Grieving needs with the practical issues with regard to the virus itself in the regulations that in fact, that 200, as you know, in Ontario is now down to 10 people, including the clergy. So that these are challenging times in the 45 years I've been a funeral director. Certainly things have changed and different trends and expectations of liturgy and visitations, gatherings, celebration of life. But this virus has turned our entire world upside down. And again, if not to be analysing left brain rape ring that are left brain is logical. The logical thing says this virus is scary. It's scary for community families. My staff, myself, the good old great brain is our emotional thing that says, hey, I love these people and somehow I need to have some closure. Somehow I need to be able to say goodbye. I think I mentioned earlier to one of your colleagues a couple of weeks ago, it was lady who's been married for 68 years. Husband died in a care facility. And when told of this, she said, I must see my husband and the family still don't think that's a good idea. She actually quoted them the marriage vows for better, for worse, in sickness and health till death do us part. And I must see my husband. So her daughter and I brought her to our facility. She sat beside her husband for about a half an hour, and then she said, I really needed this. And now you can take me home. So again, the left brain, right brain.

MG: Practically, what has changed? We heard Tabassum talk about numbers and you've mentioned them there as well. How do you have a service? How do you remember a life and celebrate a life if only a handful of people can be there in that space?

GERRY LOUGHEED: Well, I think as the rest of the world is certainly embracing technology. Funeral services, no different met. In our chapel, our chapel holds approximate 250 people. So again, with the Ontario guidelines, 10 or less people can attend that liturgy in the chapel. However, about a year and a half ago, we put livestreaming into our facilities. At that time, because we live in northern Ontario, we have some pretty brutal winters and some pretty treacherous roads and the idea was that people could watch funerals on live stream without endangering highway traffic or moving back from snowbirds from Florida. Inevitably, with this virus, that livestreaming has become enormously popular because again, a very small amount of people that can be in the chapel, the rest of the relatives, friends, neighbours can at least participate through live stream.

MG: What do families, I mean, it's appreciated, but what do they tell you about that experience? Because, again, remembering the life, so much of that is about being around other people.

GERRY LOUGHEED: Well, absolutely. You know, historically, the gathering of community is we call it a visitation or week. The issues of liturgy and churches, again, a gathering of the community, of family, even the celebrations of life for those that aren't sort of religious is a gathering at a golf club, at a legion, et cetera. So people being there is always been their presence brings healing. So, yeah, it definitely is lacking, but it's better than nothing. And I think it very much speaks to the need of a a compassionate component with regard to these regulations that we need to protect ourselves. So is it good? No. But does it help a bit? Yes.

MG: How do you create because a technological connection is different than a personal connection. And so how do you create a personal connection through the technology?

GERRY LOUGHEED: Well, I think it likely comes down to that whole issue of eulogies. Words of remembrance in all we've had approximately in the last two weeks, I would say about 12 of these broadcasts from Lifestream with immediate family in the chapel, clergy are present. And certainly for some people, that blessing that prayers are enormously important. And so these people are being blessed, which in fact, meets that faith need. But again, we had a granddaughter, very articulate last week talking about her notknow and talking about how much she enjoyed him coming to her soccer games, et cetera. So although one dimensional, I think all the other relatives, the cousins and nieces and nephews are saying, oh, yeah, I remember when he was at that soccer game. So I think there is that connection, perhaps one dimensional, but it still connects with people. And I guess the other thought to the conversation that is that the religious and cultural expectations. Last week we had a Hindu funeral and the leader of the temple has compromised health. So at the crematorium, the family actually set up laptops and that he was able to lead the Hindu prayers through the laptop in the crematorium area with the less than 10 people. So I think we're also becoming creative in our modification to make sure we're meeting those needs.

MG: It's so interesting because if you think a couple of years ago or a few months ago, using technology in that way would have seemed to be intrusive, would have seemed to be. Put your phone away and put your laptop down and this is a personal moment, but how quickly we adapt to this speaks to the stakes that are at play here.

GERRY LOUGHEED: Well, not only the stakes, I guess, the intimidation and the insidious disease that we're all facing. You don't want somebody else in your family getting sick because they attended the funeral. You don't want to jeopardize your neighbours. Even in this chapel was 250 capacity. We are having social distancing that. So once upon a time, you could sit beside your family member and give them that wonderful hugs. It heals or just hold their hand. Now, everybody, six feet apart because of the cell. This is social distancing issues. So, yeah, things are changing. But I think we're trying to make the best of a very, very bad situation. And I think the issue also, if somebody has some closure now in India again this weekend, CBC has been very good about being advocates about mental health issues. But if we don't allow closure now, if we don't allow these modified funerals, what will be the repercussions when in fact we can kind of lessen the restrictions and try to get back to normal? I noticed the question you asked a woman from out west, are you going to have a celebration afterwards? Will? Absolutely. But if I've never confronted that deceased, I've never said goodbye to that body that I loved. Yesterday, I had two daughters in my office literally crying because local health institution would not allow them to be there when their parent die. So they had to be told over the telephone that their parent had died and that person had died by themselves. And that just devastated that family. So again, by able to at least come to a funeral home and be able to confront that death and to see some sort of goodbye to that person you love is so very, very important.

MG: And do you tell family members just finally that when we're through this, there will be some sort of opportunity that they should think of, that opportunity to try and celebrate that life in a different way?

GERRY LOUGHEED: Oh, absolutely. Bishop, as you know, closed the churches, as all churches did in Canada. And again, the commitment is when this is over with, liturgical celebrations will be there. The gathering is in terms of celebration of life. So we are putting that peace on hold, but at the same time trying to meet the immediate needs and all licence and directors that we met are trained to be able to deal with what we call universal precautions. So the issue of the transferring of the deceased, even embalming, allowing viewing is all part of our capacity.

MG: Gerry, it's good to speak with you about this. These are different times than a lot of people would have ever expected and we all have to make these accommodations and changes. Thank you.

GERRY LOUGHEED: Thank you, Matt. Take care. Help take care of others.

MG: Gerry Loughheed is director of the Lougheed Funeral Homes. He was in Sudbury, Ontario.

[Music]

Ghostbusters group stops building proton packs, starts making protective gear for healthcare workers

Guests: Mario Giguere

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name's Matt Galloway. These are such tough times for so many people. Makes you think when considering who you're going to call during this pandemic, a group with the handle Ghostbusters might not normally make the cuts. However, it is with great creativity and charity that just such an organization is approaching this crisis. The Alberta Ghostbusters make elaborate costumes for comic and entertainment expos. Right now, though, they're doing something completely different, putting prop making talents to a very different use. Mario Giguere is the group's president. Mario. Good morning.

MARIO GIGUERE: Good morning.

MG: Tell me about Alberta Ghostbusters. When we're not in a pandemic, what would your group be doing?

MARIO GIGUERE: Yeah so the the Alberta Ghostbusters are a registered non-profit society here with a charitable purpose here in Alberta. We normally attend a number of pop culture events in the province. So that includes the Calgary Comic and Entertainment Expo of the Edmonton Expo. We usually put on lights display booth, so we'll have that. We'll have trucks. We'll have a video wall, lights, music. We use that booth to sell merchandise and display our props and take pictures with people and raffle from items not to raise money for the local children's hospitals.

MG: What sort of props? I mean, give us an example of a property that you would have made that people might recognize.

MARIO GIGUERE: So myself, I spent about a year of building my proton pack from scratch. It's one that looks screen accurate. So there's a lot of effort and money that went into that. I think that's my favourite one to display. But we've also made like Ghost Traps, we made the Ecto Containment Unit. So you can see in the movies, all sorts of things.

MG: The proton pack. I'll have to get some tips on how to build one down the road. In the meantime, you have taken this opportunity and the time that we're in to do something different. What are you making exactly?

MARIO GIGUERE: Yeah, so this this thing kind of started as a self-isolation thing, so we had we started a group chat that was not only members of the other Ghostbusters, but also other members of the cosplay community. And so we're all at home, we're using our 3D printers and sewing machines and whatnot just to share what we doing in our free time. But we very quickly realised that we could focus our efforts on building some some personal protective equipment for the health care workers in Alberta. So that from building a proton pack or building a light sabre went to building things that we called ear guards. These are plastic tablets with little teeth at the end that you can place behind your head and you use those teeth to fasten the elastics from a surgical mask. So what that effectively does is it reduces the rubbing and pressure on the ears, which can otherwise become very sore and raw.

MG: That's a smart idea.

MARIO GIGUERE: We had some more standard items like face shields and surgical scrub caps as well.

MG: What sort of response have you received from people who are desperately looking for these sorts of supplies?

MARIO GIGUERE: It's been huge. So the first thing we did with the Alberta Ghostbusters is create a website, which is www.albertaghostbusters.ca/covid-19 and we opened a forum for health care workers to submit their orders. So, so far we've received orders for 5000 ear guards as well as around 700 scrub caps and 700 face shields. So we found the air guards are by far the most requested item. And I think it also goes to show like how well the local health authorities are doing with supplying the hospitals too. The ear guards are kind o fnon-standard items that they don't supply, but the scrub caps and face shields definitely are. So they're doing a great job too.

MG: How does it feel to be able to do something like this? I mean, it's so much of art. We're just talking about this so much of our lives and the things we took for granted have been turned upside down. Here you are in this position doing this. How does it feel to be able to do something like this?

MARIO GIGUERE: Well, you know, at least our group is based on a charitable purpose. So when we're not raising money for local charities, we found a way here to help out in a different way and as they say in the movie, busting makes me feel good.

MG: What is the message that you would give to other people who want to help out? We're talking about people who are the helpers across this country and we keep hearing stories of people who are stepping up in ways that would have been unimaginable and unexpected and there they are. And they're making, like you all, like you are, making a contribution in a very specific way. What would you say to other people who are thinking that they should, could, might want to get involved in something like this?

MG: Yeah, so the first thing I would say there's a number of ways that people can help. So we've set up our webpage that I mentioned earlier and it kind of lists what you can do. So the first one is if you are a health care worker in Alberta and you could use some of this equipment, please fill out forms to submit your order. The second point is we have a Go Fund Me campaign link on there, because this is an entirely voluntary operation where people who are members are just donating their time building these items. We depend entirely on a go find new campaign to pay for the costs of materials. So we would encourage people to donate to that link. We also have the third point is we have a forum for people who can donate materials. So if you have PLS, if you have fabric, if you have buttons that you would like to donate, please fill out that form. Also, if you have 3D printers or sewing machines and you can help build some of these items, use form to let us know if we can come pick up these items? And finally, the fourth point is our ultimate objective here is getting this personal protective equipment to these health care workers as quickly as we can. So we've put up our design files, our patterns and tutorials on our website to free of charge to check out. That way people can help out in their communities no matter where they live.

MG: Would you have ever imagined that you would have gone from the proton pack to making face shields?

MARIO GIGUERE: No, definitely not. I don't think anyone had seen this coming, but I'm really not surprised that a group that rose to the occasion here and tried to help out in a different way, especially for these health care workers who are the real heroes today and who are going to get us out of this.

MG: Creativity breeds creative solutions to sticky situations. Mario, it's a great pleasure to talk to you. Congratulations on what you're doing and hopefully get back to the original purpose of the Alberta Ghostbusters sooner rather than later. Thank you.

MARIO GIGUERE: Thank you very much.

MG: Mario Giguere is a civil servant by day, president of the Alberta Ghostbusters in his spare time. He is one of the helpers people, as I say, who are doing something extraordinary. Couldn't have imagined that they would be taking their talents and applying them this way. We know that there are people right across the country who are stepping up in the midst of this pandemic to do just that and we want to hear all about them. If you have a suggestion, maybe you are one of the helpers. Maybe your neighbour is, somebody that you know. Let us know. You can send us an e-mail through the website. Go to cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the contact link. It's time to say goodbye to our friends in Newfoundland and Labrador. You have Cross-talk up next. For everyone else, we're back in 90 seconds. And we will be talking about what has been called a reckoning comes to what's happening in long term care. You'll hear directly from people on the frontlines and what we could do to change that situation. That's on its way. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current. Stay with us.

[Music]

Tom Power in conversation with Maitreyi Ramakrishnan

Guests: Tom Power, Maitreyi Ramakrishnan

MG: This is an extended edition of The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. Tom Power, host of Q is back. Hello, Tom.

TOM POWER: Matt, I have such a great story to tell you. I'm so excited to tell you.

MG: Oh go.

TOM POWER: Okay, so about a year ago, 17-year-old Mississauga student, Mississauga, Ontario, by the way, Maitreyi Ramakrishnan, she was getting ready to graduate high school, plan on going to school, had never thought about really being an actor ever. Mindy Kaling from the Office and The Mindy Project puts out an open casting call on social media looking for someone to play a teenage version of herself in a Netflix series. And she got it. She went from getting ready to graduate school in Canada to flying to L.A. to starring in pretty much the biggest TV show of the year. I got to talk to her about it. Take a listen to this.

SOUNDCLIP

TOM POWER: How are you holding up?

MAITREYI RAMAKRISHNAN: I'm doing all right. I'm honestly doing OK. I'm blessed to have my family and, you know, my dog and, you know, I'm in the comfort of my own home, which is awesome. So obviously, I'd love to see my friends, but I'm not going to complain for a second. You know, when I just want to keep respectful and really just give a shout out to the people who are on the frontlines, like the healthcare workers, the food delivery, you know, people like those are the real heroes right now.

TOM POWER: So how did you end up making this audition tape for Mindy Kaling?

MAITREYI RAMAKRISHNAN: So my best friend, she's the one who sent me the original casting call for the show, and I only honestly said yes to trying because I just wanted to hang out with my friends.

TOM POWER: What do you mean?

MAITREYI RAMAKRISHNAN: Like we figured like people run like professional people would be trying out for this, you know, because it's a worldwide casting call. So obviously, there has to be some people with experience and I don't have any film experience. So I have no idea what it's like to be in front of a camera. So we were like, OK, let's just have fun with this. Let's just try it out. And, you know, like we'll have like a fun video to look back on with, like, fun memories and we'll make it a day. That's literally it.

TOM POWER: So when did you, when did you start to figure out that this had become something?

MAITREYI RAMAKRISHNAN: A week after I sent in the original tapes that they asked like everybody for, they asked for more videos. And my reaction to that was that they had a really low standard or something. Like I was like, oh, OK like, this is like the equivalent to an automated email. Like everybody gets this, it's fine. And a week after that, they asked me to come to L.A., but they called my phone and I didn't pick up because I thought it was a random number. Because I don't get phone numbers from L.A. I just get calls from my friends.

TOM POWER: No. Most people wouldn't. And then you got the call. Did you hear from Mindy?

MAITREYI RAMAKRISHNAN: So then I saw the emails saying, hey, you didn't pick up your phone, but we just want to know if you'd be able to visit us in L.A. to do a screen test. And I Was like holy shit. What?And my best friend, who was the one who helped me film the original tape, was there with me when I got that email. Freaking out. Then I was like, OK, well, maybe this is like a real thing, like this is wow. And on that first visit to L.A., that was when I met Mindy.

TOM POWER: Let's talk about your show though. Let's talk about Never Have I Ever. You play Devi. How would you describe her? Like what would her Instagram bio say?

MAITREYI RAMAKRISHNAN: Oh my God, what would her Instagram bio say? Definitely. She would have some sort of sassy like quote by like R.B.G. You know, I love her so much because she's so confident and she knows what she wants in life and she's going for it. Still, even if people see her as just a nerd and just as a smart kid and the best part about her, she never dumps herself down.

TOM POWER: I want to play a clip from the show. This is Devi and her two best friends. Devi's laying down the law with them about the new school year. Take a listen to this.

SOUNDCLIP

[Clip from Never Have I Ever]

TOM POWER: That's a clip from there from the new show. So how much do you relate to Devi?

MAITREYI RAMAKRISHNAN: I definitely relate Devi in some ways and definitely not in others. With her finding her own identity within her culture, I can definitely relate to that experience when I was going through high school and especially considering that the conversation you have ongoing throughout your entire life and it's a difficult one. Yeah, and very necessary one.

TOM POWER: It is funny for you to have that perspective and be so close to being in high school. You know, what I mean like it's not like you're you're 10 years out and looking back and going like, oh, yeah, that was you know, that was such a crazy time. I can't believe I took it so seriously. Like you're still sort of in it, right?

MAITREYI RAMAKRISHNAN: Yeah, I feel like I've hit the sweet spot of like in terms of like when I got the role because I'm older than Devi to be able to look back and be like, girl, that's cringy, like, damn, bro, don't do that. But I'm also close enough to remember the feeling of what it felt like to think I'm doing the right thing even though it's definitely not.

TOM POWER: How do you feel about the show being out right now?

MAITREYI RAMAKRISHNAN: In the grand scheme of things, all I'm missing is like a red carpet and a couple of people taking photos of me, and that is definitely worth losing's to keep people safe in terms of like the long run. I'd rather miss my first premiere. So one day on a talk show I can say, yeah, my freshman year it was cancelled because it took a pandemic to stop that.

TOM POWER: Yeah you'll have that story for the real rest of your life.

MAITREYI RAMAKRISHNAN: Exactly. Like it really took a pandemic to stop never Have I Ever. But I'd rather be able to stay safe now and, you know, get over like the pandemic as soon as we can so that we can resume filming and hopefully get a season 2.

TOM POWER: Maitreyi, thank you so much.

MAITREYI RAMAKRISHNAN: Thank you.

MG: That's Tom Power speaking with Maitreyi Ramakrishnan and she's the star of a new Netflix show called Never Have I Ever. If you got the call from Los Angeles, would you have answered the phone? No, none of us probably would have answered the phone. And then who knows what we would have missed out on. She got the email that followed up and look where she is now. That is it for this extended edition of The Current today. As I mentioned, tomorrow on the program, we're going to be talking further about the situation in long term care homes and we'd love to hear your stories. So many of what we've heard, including on this program this morning, have been heartbreaking just about the real difficulties that people have had in trying to ensure that their loved ones are getting the care that they need. If you want to reach out with your story, you can connect with us through the website at cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the Contact link. In the meantime, that's it for us for today. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. Take care of yourself. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Music: Theme]

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Apr. 15, 2020 episode transcript

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