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The AIH Transcript for April 10, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

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CH: Tonight:

CO: Learning the hard way. The head of the Canadian Medical Association says Ottawa did not act on the advice they got years ago and now his members, frontline health care workers, are paying the price.

CH: Desperation laid bare. In Ecuador's largest city, the bodies of people who've died of COVID-19 are being left in the street. We'll hear how things got so bad.

CO: Remote chance of learning. A mother and daughter living in rural Saskatchewan say moving classes online doesn't help much when the Internet is out of reach.

CH: Seder it ain't so. So if you could filter a little down at the cancellation of your own Seder, some homebound entertainers have cooked something up for you.

CO: A laughing matter. Comedy in the time of COVID is a challenge, but our guest is producing a late night show that is shot in Samantha Bee's backyard. And she says it's all good because comedians are made for tragedy.

CH: And the pandemic is changing the way we do a lot of things. Maybe even the way we sin. But not whether we sin. And so some Catholic churches are making sure, confession can still happen and they're taking their cue from the fast food industry. As It Happens. The Friday Edition. Radio that believes if you're in for a penance, you're in for a pound.

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Part 1: CMA President

CMA President

Guest: Sandy Buchman

CH: Today, Justin Trudeau acknowledged that his government might have lessons to learn from its handling of COVID-19. But this is how the Prime Minister answered when he was asked about a mid-March briefing note that was still suggesting that the chance of spread in Canada was low.

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JUSTIN TRUDEAU: I think we saw that within days we'd begun to take very serious measures to restrict travel, to encourage social distancing. We moved very quickly and early -- earlier than some countries on countering the potential spread of the virus. At those days, the numbers of Canadians infected were still low, but we saw the potential that we are in right now and we started to act early. And that's why the measures that we are taking right now, the significant measures that we're in right now, are keeping us. We are hopeful on the best possible curve to get through this in the coming months.

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CH: That was Prime Minister Trudeau at his morning briefing in Ottawa. Dr. Sandy Buchman is the president of the Canadian Medical Association. We reached him in Toronto.

CO: Dr. Buchman you just heard the prime minister say that his government moved very quickly and effectively. What are you hearing from your members? Is that their experience?

SANDY BUCHMAN: Well, in the last two or three weeks, we've heard from our members who are physicians right across the country that they're scared. We heard that they're frightened and they're particularly frightened because they anticipate a lack of personal protective equipment when they're working right on the front lines. And this is something we also hear from other health care workers on the frontlines: nurses, respiratory therapists, etc. So they're scared because they don't feel adequately prepared or protected.

CO: It's interesting what the prime minister was saying that since they realized that there was this crisis, they acted a few years after the SARS outbreak in 2006 there was a report recommending that Ottawa build up stockpiles of exactly the kind of equipment you're talking about. What do you understand happened to that report and the desire for preparation?

SB: Well, I'm not sure what happened to the report. But I have a sense that everyone became complacent. There are so many health care issues that are going on all the time that are focus shifted away to other important issues so that our preparation for the pandemic, I'm surmising, fell by the wayside.

CO: And now we're in a pandemic. And you say the doctors are scared. They're afraid of what they're dealing with. What kind of a, I guess, threat is this to our frontline responders?

SB: It's a very serious threat to our frontline health care workers. And at the Canadian Medical Association, we're gravely concerned about that. They are experiencing additional anxiety because they don't have the information as to what personal protective equipment is in the pipeline, what's coming down. We haven't received clear, transparent information to health care authorities, even to hospital administrators as to how much is available. We redid a recent survey in which the majority of physicians in hospital didn't even know how much equipment the hospital actually had in stock. Community based physicians are unable to access personal protective equipment. Many have attempted to order personal protective equipment from their usual suppliers or online, and only 15 percent heard any confirmation back as they were to get it. So this has added an additional anxiety to the risk that they're perceiving to their own health and might I add, health of their family and loved ones, because they could carry the disease back home with them.

CO: The prime minister said there'll be lots of time to talk about would've should've could've after this crisis is over. But when they knew what they were dealing with in January-February, was it already too late to be ordering the amount of equipment that would be necessary, including ventilators, we should add, was it already too late to be able to prepare for what was coming?

SB: You know what I find in medicine, when we refer back to what we could have done or should have done at the time looking back in retrospect or what we call the retrospective scope, we often discover that we missed something or we should have acted in time. We didn't see that lesion or that spot on the chest x-ray, and now the person has a full blown lung cancer. And we go back and say, how could we have missed that? You know I think we had certain limited information at the time and our public health officials and our politicians, our government, made the best judgments they could with the information that they had. And it's easy to go back and criticize and say, yeah, we should have noticed this more, we should have acted more quickly. But it's difficult to criticize when you're in that moment. So, yes, perhaps we should have been more prepared when we looked at what the pandemic playbook, the information from 2006 and the recommendations told us we should have been better prepared. I make an analogy to the military preparedness that we have as a country. We rarely go to war, if at all. We're a nation that supports peacekeeping efforts around the world. Yet we have a full military ready to go. This is a war too. And when we compare it to how we have prepared military, we haven't planned appropriately over time. And it's important to understand. It's important to acknowledge, but it's also important now to move on, to deal with the issues of personal protective equipment, of ventilators, intensive care equipment, and get it done now. And so once we're past this crisis, we can review how we should never let that happen again.

CO: Just to go back to what your doctors are saying about their anxiety, not just that they don't have what they need, but they don't know when they'll get it. Why don't they know that? Why isn't that information available to doctors?

SB: I can't really say why it isn't available. We have requested that information be made available as soon as possible. And I can only assume that it's just not there yet. I wish it was. It would help us with our planning. It would help us with deployment, if necessary, to direct the equipment that does become available as soon as it's manufactured or as soon it's imported to those areas of the country like Ontario and Quebec, which are experiencing the most rapid increase in the number of cases and the sickest patients.

CO: Dr. Buchman, I would like to just say that your members are doing an amazing job and we all appreciate it very much. And I thank you for speaking with us tonight.

SB: Thank you very much Ms. Off for saying that. And I really appreciate the opportunity to speak to your listeners about this crisis in these difficult times. Thank you.

CH: Dr. Sandy Buchman is the president of the Canadian Medical Association. We reached him in Toronto. This afternoon, the CBC's Rosemary Barton, spoke with one of the frontline physicians that Dr. Buchman was talking about. Nadia Alam is a family doctor and anesthetist in Georgetown, Ontario. Yesterday, she tweeted, "I'm starving, thirsty, tired. I wore my N95 mask for seven hours straight, careful to conserve my PPE. Then I go see a 72 year old man with poor lung function and COVID-19." She quotes the patient saying, "I don't want to die on a machine. I want to see the blue sky." She writes, "So I sat and we watched the sky." Rosemary asked Dr. Alan to tell her about that patient and a note some of what she had to say is hard to hear.

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NADIA ALAM: So I was called in to intubate him. He's an elderly gentleman. He's got poor lung function. He's got COPD and a number of other illnesses that make him quite frail. He'd been brought into the hospital because he needed extra supportive care. So supplemental oxygen to help keep him stable and keep him well until he could recover from COVID-19. There is no cure for COVID-19. The reason I was called was he was worsening. He was getting sicker. If he wasn't put on a ventilator, it wasn't clear whether he would survive or not. Now I want to be clear, being on a ventilator is not a cure for COVID-19 either. So I geared up, went in to intubate him and put him on life support. And as we spoke, as I got his consent, he realized that there was a good chance -- there is a high chance -- that he would end up passing away. He would end up dying on the ventilator. And that is not how he wanted to go. That was not how he saw all of this playing out.

ROSEMARY BARTON: So you sat with him for a little while.

NADIA ALAM: Yes. He turned to me and said, "If I go, if I die, from this I would rather die looking at the sky. I would rather die talking to my family." And so I sat with him and we looked at the sky. And it was a beautiful sunny...it was a beautiful, sunny day. And we talked about his family. And he put his family on the phone so that I could talk to them too. And like I said, yesterday was a hard day, but that time with him was probably the most peaceful moment that I had.

ROSEMARY BARTON: And did he end up going on the ventilator or he decided he just didn't want to go down that road at all?

NADIA ALAM: No, he told me he didn't want the tube. I went back to see him again this morning and he's sicker this morning. And we talked again and he still understands all of the risks. He's made an informed decision. He realizes that he's had a really good life. He realizes that he's very seriously ill. He knows that he could pass away from this, but he wants to go out on his own terms.

ROSEMARY BARTON: So how are you doing in the midst of this? I hear the kids in the background. I know you're putting yourself at risk every day. How are you doing? How worried are you about your own health and your kids?

NADIA ALAM: I'm scared. I read an article today about a physician who had urged his country to provide proper PPE, personal protective equipment, for frontline health care workers. And he passed away. So I know that the work I do, it is incredibly important. I love it. I love being a doctor. There is no doubt about that. I have never understood this more clearly than in these days. But I'm scared. I'm scared because I'm afraid of catching the disease. I'm afraid of passing it on to my more vulnerable patients. And I'm afraid of being one of the statistics that passes away from it. I am afraid and my kids, they feel it too. A couple of days ago, my 6 year old turned to me and hugged me and said, please don't die. And that was really hard talking to him and making him understand that I'm young and healthy. I'm probably going to be fine. And he was like, but you talked about other people who were young and healthy who passed away. And I had no answer for that. So all I did was hug him.

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CH: That's Georgetown, Ontario, Dr. Nadia Alam speaking with the CBC's Rosemary Barton today.

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No Internet Access

CH: Video chats, online lectures, discussion forums and all kinds of other web-based tools have become fixtures in households across the country where learning has moved from classrooms to couches and kitchen tables. But in Jennifer Nygaard's house that's not going very well. Ms. Nygaard and her two daughters live outside Prince Albert in rural Saskatchewan, and they do not have Internet access. Ms. Nygaard and her older daughter, Shelby Dunn, who's in grade 10, told the CBC's Morgan Modjeski that that has made school fundamentally unfair.

[sc]

JENNIFER NYGAARD: As a parent, I feel very helpless in this situation because I can't do anything to support my kids' learning requirements right now. And both of them want to be learning. They both love school. So my understanding is that there is nothing available for us. And with one school I have the teacher phoned me and tracked me down and then the other school I had to track the teacher down which possibly isn't appropriate. But I didn't know what we were supposed to be doing. And I wasn't sure if there was something that was set up for her that I was missing out on because there was no buddy answering phones or returning phone calls from the school or the school division. There's just nothing available for us at all.

MORGAN MODJESKI: Shelby, what has it been like for you as a student could just not be able to kind of continue your pursuit of education, even though it's something that you do want to do. What's it been like for you?

SHELBY DUNN: It's been really really hard. It seems really unfair too. Like, I don't know who else is affected by this, but I'm sure I'm not the only one. It's really frustrating especially when people say, just go send it online. But they don't understand that we can't do that. We can't have the Internet. And, you know, everything's online right now, especially during the COVID-19 pandemic people are relying more heavily on things being done online. And it seems really like nobody is thinking about people and families who don't have access to that. And like a lot of people don't. I know out here we have neighbours and stuff like that and it's a struggle all the time. So I just really hope that they're thinking more about people who don't have access.

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CH: Jennifer Nygaard and her older daughter, Shelby Dunn, speaking to the CBC's Morgan Modjeski about remote learning without Wi-Fi. In some parts of Saskatchewan, schools have begun shipping physical learning materials to families that can't access the Internet. But Ms. Nygaard and her daughters are still waiting.

[Music]

Vancouver Drive-in Confessions

Guest: James Hughes

CH: We're all doing a lot of things differently right now, but we're still doing most of the things: eating, sleeping, socializing, parenting, and chances are sinning. For Catholics, that means confession remains as important as ever. But physical distancing measures have made trips to your standard confessional impossible. So St. Patrick's Roman Catholic Parish in Vancouver has changed its standard confessional. We reached St. Patrick's priest, Reverend James Hughes in Vancouver.

CO: Father Hughes, if anyone had told you last Easter that come this holy week you would be doing confessions in your parking lot, would you have believed it?

JAMES HUGHES: Absolutely not. It's beyond belief, actually.

CO: Now, why did you decide that this was the best way to have confessions?

JH: Well, I think it's important to note that, you know, in the midst of the sadness of this situation, we needed to find opportunities to help people. And so confession is one of those sacraments, like all the sacraments of the church, you need to be physically present to be able to receive them. And so knowing that we have to abide for the sake of the good of all to those health care directives that we've all been given, we came up with a drive-thru confession because the situation being in the city of Vancouver, right at the heart of the city of Vancouver, we have a parking lot and an ability to be able to help people in that way. So we thought drive-thru would be a great way where we wouldn't have to sanitize, people would remain in their cars, the priest and the penitents could be in that 2 metre span of distance and still be able to hear one another and know that that penitents confession would be held confidential. So there would be some music being played in the background as well in that underground parkade and with white noise nobody actually could hear the person's confession.

CO: So you're playing some music, you're playing hymns or what? What's in the background?

JH: Hymns. And I had a joy for having beautiful, peaceful Gregorian chants truthfully being played in the background.

CO: And I guess your weather is suitable for this. It is certainly not in other parts of the country.

JH: That's right. It certainly was in our favour these days. But even if the weather was inclement, we could still actually carry it out because we're in this underground. So we are protected even from rain.

CO: What kind of response have you had?

JH: Tremendous. Obviously, we can't count and that wasn't our purpose to count the numbers of penitents, but we had two styles of confession going on. One was drive-thru and then there was an ability to park your car and go to a walk-thru station. So that walk-thru station with a priest with a screen could allow anonymity and therefore there was quite a few. So I'd say out of six hours, almost six hours of hearing confessions, there was maybe a 10 minute break from no penitents. So it was just steady. And then Saturday it was closer to seven or seven and a half hours. And again, we took a one hour lunch break in between. And that was the only time we had rest, so to speak.

CO: What has it mean for people to be able, in holy week, to actually have a confession in person? Because so many other things, so many services are being done online, sort of participating virtually. What does it mean for people?

JH: Well, if I could say this, that oftentimes hearing confession in the traditional way in confessional, you know, many people are often grateful, but they don't always have to express their thanks because it's taken for granted. I'd have to say that in this drive-thru confession, I remember just gratitude stated almost by every penitent. It sounded simply like, "Thank you, father, for doing this." And it was simply that. And so it was a joy to be able to do this for penitence, but also not to forget that we as priests want to exercise our ministry. So this is a wonderful way for us to reconnect also with people.

CO: We know that at Easter and Christmas, I'm sure, you know, you get a lot more people who want to have confessions. They confess. Do you find that it's even more so this year, given what people are dealing with? Do you find there is a different spirit people are bringing to this very odd confessional?

JH: Yeah, in a way, I would say there is probably no doubt people who hadn't been to confession for a while and wanted to have this opportunity, especially in light of the crises. But saying that I think that in past experiences as priests, we often experience people wanting to return to the sacrament just because, you know, the pandemic is one that gets this media attention now. But let's face it, there's all kinds of issues of suffering and COVID-19 is only one of a plentitude of situations. So often people are driven, no question, about the opportunity to want restorative healing or at least some kind of comfort to know that God has not abandoned them in their suffering, but that he has suffered himself, as we know in Good Friday, but gives us the Easter message of hope.

CO: Do you think you find people are feeling somewhat afraid of what's going on in their lives right now?

JH: No question. But that's the brilliance in the Christian message of the Easter message, because the disciples themselves, when they saw Jesus, actually also feared with uncertainty. What does this all mean? What's going to happen? I think those questions are arising right now, and especially not just simply for the health of people, but with the economic crises as well. So I think that this plays an important role for us, for believers to come to faith and to God.

CO: What's going to happen in your church on Easter Sunday? You say that you need confession. People need to be in person. Are you having services?

JH: We will only be able to have services livestreamed. Unfortunately, they won't be able to receive the Eucharist as they haven't for the last couple of weeks now -- as long as we are not able to have masses in public, but masses are still celebrated by priests. So the fact that we could go livestream and help people walk through the liturgy, they won't be able to attend mass per say, but they'll be able to make what we call a spiritual communion, which is a beautiful way of saying, Lord, although I cannot receive you now, I long to receive you again one day in the Eucharist. So just basically asking the Lord to comfort them in this isolation.

CO: Father Hughes, we'll leave it there. I hope you have a Happy Easter.

JH: You too. God bless.

CH: Reverend James Hughes is one of the priests at St. Patrick's Roman Catholic Parish in Vancouver. That's where we reached him.

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All-star Seder Event

CH: The Jewish holiday of spring renewal, Passover, is also happening right now. Though, families are forgoing the usual somewhat lengthy in-person gatherings at which the story of Passover is recounted and making a spot at the Seder table for a video conferencing device instead. And yet it's a holiday with particular resonance for everyone this year, featuring, as it does, a large collection of plagues, each chilling in its own special way. Frogs. Lice. Boils. Locusts and blighted livestock. And then it gets really gruesome. In the end, though, it's a story of finding freedom, of coming through suffering and starting life anew. And it's about doing it all together. Which is why not long ago, the lyricist Benj Pasek, known for "La La Land" "Dear Evan Hansen" and more, reached out to his fellow homebound entertainers, and asked if they'd be willing to be part of an all-star online Seder event to raise money for the CDC Foundation. Well a lot of them were very willing. And in very little time, they've pulled together something they're calling Saturday night Seder, a variety show and fundraiser that will stream on YouTube tomorrow night. Expect one or two play gags and a few glasses of Manischewitz raised to next year in-person.

[Music]

Part 2: What it's like making a late-night TV show in Samantha Bee's backyard

Ecuador COVID

Guest: Lia Burbano

CH: After what seemed like a slower start, COVID-19 is now wreaking havoc in countries across Latin America. And nowhere is the crisis more pronounced than in Ecuador. And Guayaquil, the country's largest city, is fast emerging as the epicentre. The situation there is so desperate that sick patients are dying at home and their bodies are being left on the street. City officials have started distributing cardboard coffins to families in need. The official death toll in Ecuador is 297 people. But local activists believe that number to be much higher. Lia Burbano lives in the hardest hit neighbourhood of Guayaquil. And a warning: parts of this interview are disturbing.

CO: Lia if you were to go for a walk through the streets of your city right now, what would you see around you?

LIA BURBANO: Well, it's a complex situation. But if I walk through the streets right now, in some there would be silence, maybe complete isolation. In some houses, in some neighbourhoods this scenario is totally different because it's easy to find many people outside because they have dead people at their houses. And also on the streets there are corpses that have not been picked up and the bad smell is no longer supported. You know, it is very easy to find the people, it's sad, but also terrified because of the situation.

CO: And at the same time, people are going through this isolation while they are watching their loved ones die and then they're left out in the street. The police say they've already collected about 100 bodies from the streets of Guayaquil.

LB: I need to say this -- yes, a week ago, the drama was really awful. The things were really apocalyptic. Incredible even for cities like Guayaquil. There were bodies -- many bodies in different parts of Guayaquil, in different neighbourhoods, all of them were very poor. Today, a week later, after the organizations, the social organizations publicly denounced the horror to the international social media. The government has tried to control the situation. Although there is still a long way to go. Now there are fewer visible bodies on the streets. That's true.

CO: What is your own personal experience with COVID-19?

LB: Personally, most of my closest family live in Spain. So they are living in their own drama there. Here in Ecuador, I haven't lost anyone very close to me, but I have a lot of friends who are dead now -- many many friends that have lost their loved ones. The death is close and everyday it is closer. It's a strange feeling because every day you wake up and think, oh, my God, who will die today?

CO: You have a friend whose father died and they had no place to take his body, as I understand.

LB: Yes. We are not only dealing with some family or friends getting sick or dying because of the virus -- the problems, the real problems start after they die because everything costs a lot of money.

CO: And I understand that they're actually giving out cardboard boxes for bodies because they don't have any coffins.

LB: We don't have enough. But the few ones are really really expensive. Over 1,500-1,700 dollars. So our local government tried to distribute some boxes. They cost about 80-100 dollars.

CO: What is the government of Ecuador saying? I mean you're talking about what's going on in Guayaquil. Ecuador says it's officially had about 300 people who have died from the virus, but you don't believe those numbers do you?

LB: Of course. Because our government said on television -- we do not know how many people have really died because of the virus. Because most of the people who died before, died without being tested. Also the government is expecting about 1,500 people to die in the next few weeks. So I can see in my opinion that our government has no idea what is really happening.

CO: Well, very poor regions of that city and the people who do have work they can't isolate themselves, can they? They need to go out to work.

LB: Of course. Of course. And the police are trying to repress them. They put them in jail. But that's now the situation, because people need to eat. People who have lived for many years working on the streets, trying to get two or three dollars per day to give their family aid. And we are talking about families with 8-12 people living together in a small house. So the government didn't pay attention to this problem. The hospitals, they are not receiving more patients because they don't have resources. The people who have money, well, they can go to the private hospitals and they can get to know the machines for breathing and vitamins and everything they need. But poor people can go to the public hospitals. And in public hospitals our doctors and our nurses are sick now. Most of them have already died. So that's a real problem, it is not only to control the bias itself, it's also how to control these social problems. Within a few days or maybe one or two weeks, people from the poorest places in this city, poorest neighbourhoods in the city, they are going to protest. They're going to be violent. So what is our government going to do? I don't know. Maybe send military. Send police to repress them. I don't know.

CO: Leah I just don't know what to say. It's just an awful situation that you're in. And I hope that you can stay healthy and safe within that and that you continue to be able to help others. I really appreciate you telling us about what's going on in Guayaquil.

LB: I want to thank (you) because if the international media, people from other places (didn't) call us or interview us -- no one outside of Ecuador (would've) knew what is happening.

CO: Well, thank you. Thank you for helping us shine a spotlight on what's happening in Guayaquil and Ecuador. And please take care.

LB: Okay. Thank you.

CH: Lia Burbano lives in Guayaquil, Ecuador. That's where we reached her.

[Music]

Allana Harkin

Guest: Allana Harkin

CH: There's a phrase in showbiz: The show must go on. But during the past few weeks, the vast majority of shows have gone off -- with major TV, movie, and theatrical productions shutting down. Late night talk shows, though, are finding a way to persevere. Jimmy Kimmel, Jimmy Fallon, Seth Meyers, and Trevor Noah have proven you can still produce a show from your home. Meanwhile, host Samantha Bee and the team at Full Frontal have upped the ante, showing you can also produce a show from your backyard.

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SAMANTHA BEE: Oh hi there! I'm Samantha Bee and I'm just hanging out at my house, fully made up. You know, if there's one takeaway from the videos the other late night hosts put out is that they have incredible homes. But I can do you one better. I've got a woodshed. Why? Because I've been preparing for something like this for years. So now that we're all operating at DefCon (censor bleep) my pants levels, I live out here to protect my wood. But it looks like I don't have any wood because the grocery store seems to have run out of the stuff that was precut. So here we go. It's cavewoman times.

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CH: What follows is several minutes of physical comedy, profanity, and attempted woodchopping. The last of which you would not normally see on Full Frontal with Samantha Bee. But when you're making TV in these times, you don't just have to think outside the box, but outside the studio as well. Allana Harkin is a Canadian comedian and a producer at Full Frontal with Samantha Bee. We reached her in New York.

CO: Allana, just how much has your job changed over the past few weeks?

ALLANA HARKIN: A little bit. [Chuckles] How much has your job changed?

CO: Oh, you know, it's exactly the same. I'm doing exactly what I always do. But Samantha Bee is out maybe chopping wood. So you're not chopping wood I guess.

AH: I'm not chopping wood, but I'm doing everything from my computer. We have a staff of 70 at the show and we're all working obviously remotely. And the only way we see each other is through our computers or, you know, phoning. So we've never had this before because we're really a show that when I have a question for somebody, I run down the hallway or I say I'm going to pop into your office or can you come into the edit? I just want to show you something for two seconds. Like that world doesn't exist right now.

CO: Comedy is very collaborative, isn't it? I mean, you know, you're bouncing ideas up. Obviously, it's still working because that part we just played is hilarious. And the episodes she's doing from the woods are very funny. But how difficult is it to actually do your job, do comedy like that?

AH: Well, I feel like in the beginning, technically, that's where the challenge was. I mean, as comedians, this is sort of what we do. You know, people are always asking us, like, how do you find the funny in this situation or that situation? That question has been asked to me so many times, I started to think about like, is this my crutch? Like, is there [laughs] something in my life I'm not dealing with that I have to write a joke all the time? And Carol, that's probably true. But, you know, I'm grateful for it. I'm grateful that in this time that that's the job you need to find what's funny in the situation. And like right now, my phone is like just blowing up because we have a show that we're shooting right now. So, you know, we're constantly talking to each other. So it's been full on.

CO: But at the same time, we know Samantha Bee is at home with her family and it sounds like a very very beautiful location. You are in New York. You're in the epicenter of what's going on in the United States, which is the epidemic of this virus. And so just a personal question, how is it for you and your family living there?

AH: Well, it's a challenge. We've done a pretty good job. I don't know if it's because I'm an Irish Catholic that pandemic fear runs in my veins. But as soon as things started to happen, I was just like, we are shutting down. So we have been in full quarantine since the 13th of March. Like we haven't seen anybody gone anywhere or done anything. You know but the thing about New York is that also you can get everything delivered to you. So you don't have to go to the grocery store. I mean, now it's very challenging because you have to wait. But it's like, oh, yeah, I have to wait 24 hours to get something. But I feel like in the beginning, people took a long time to wrap their heads around this. And there were still people on the street, in the parks. And now it's a ghost town. And it's really difficult when you're living in New York City, which is an energy to the city, which is incredible -- the energy is still there, but, you know, you miss the city. I miss the city. I miss biking through the city. I miss seeing people. But on the other hand, this is what it is. We all have to be safe and we all take care of each other.

CO: Do you get, any place, a response that how dare you make jokes? How dare you try to be funny when people are getting sick and dying?

AH: Well, no, because we would never ever make a joke about people getting sick or die.

CO: I mean in general about trying to make light or have fun during an epidemic.

AH: I know exactly what you mean. So what we do is we go after the people that everybody wants us to go after. You know, we comment on how the president has handled this pandemic. We comment on the different state senators who are doing a great job, who are not doing a great job. We are pleasantly surprised by our governor, Andrew Cuomo, who is like suddenly our dad [laughs]. He's like our resident dad. And he's really honestly bringing a sense of calm. I love listening to his press conferences. And all of a sudden he'll break into, well, you know, talking about recipes.

CO: Who would have thought? [Laughs]

AH: I would have never guessed it. So listen, I mean, ever since we started the show, which is February 8th, 2016, there has been lots to talk about which is heartbreaking. I think comedians in particular during dark times, we do find I guess it's light. I don't know, maybe some people call it that. We do find the jokes and it's survival. And it's a way of communicating that journalists just can't. Like a journalist is just not going to come and go this is my opinion.

CO: I have to say on As It Happens, we have been playing stories from our archives, the funny stories, things that are from the olden days. And people are extremely grateful for some levity. Are you getting the same responses? Are people happy? Please give us something to laugh at.

AH: Oh, for sure. We are getting great responses. You know, people are watching more television right now. They're connecting with us. I think it would be worse if we didn't have a show. I would find it painful because I would have nowhere. There would be no outlet. I mean, I'd figure something out. I would do my own videos on Instagram. I posted some videos of my husband doing my hair like, this is where we're at, Carol. [Laughter] My husband had to colour my hair. So if you can't see humor in that, I mean, I don't know. Like he works in construction, but he was very good. Here's the surprise. We're all learning things about ourselves. [Laughs]

CO: Some are not. I've seen some pretty bad haircuts out there.

AH: Oh. So have I. I mean, I don't know why anyone would give someone shears [laughter]. Like no. I wouldn't let anyone cut my hair. But, you know, I got to tell you, like, if you looked at how we pitch stories and you read all the stories, you would be -- these are the words, these stories break your heart. And it's really amazing. Like we look at a story, we pitch it, I'd love to tell you know social justice is very important to our show. We love highlighting people that need to be highlighted. But we need to look at it and go, where is the humor?

CO: And always have Donald Trump if nothing else.

AH: You know, he's definitely not funny. We've had so many people say to us, oh, my gosh, what are you going to do when he's no longer president? He's such great material. I'm like, you know what I'll do? I'll breathe a sigh of relief because it's been a real challenge.

CO: I just want to ask you about what it's like for Samantha Bee herself. And she's got her kids and husband working as crew members. Tell us a bit about what it's been like for her.

AH: Well, I find it hilarious. Sam and I started our comedy careers in Toronto in the sketch group called The Atomic Fireballs. And Jason Jones, who is her husband, used to shoot our videos on like a handy cam [laughter]. And he was so frustrated with us the whole time. And so for me, I feel like we've gone back in time. And suddenly, Jason is shooting our fireball videos. But this time, her children are really are involved. They're holding the balance for the light. They're slating. We're asking them to do things. Like yesterday I just had a conversation with Sam and I said listen I know this is a lot because I know your kids are in school, but can they get some B-roll tomorrow when you're shooting? [Laughter] So we can use it for some digital stuff like this is where we're at right now. And in some ways, I see them truly embracing the situation like it's real grass roots comedy. Shooting stuff in your backyard. But we get to broadcast it. And we worked really hard to make it look beautiful. That's very important. If we couldn't make it look good, it probably wouldn't make it to the air. Like our network does have some integrity.

CO: And Samantha herself looks great. She says in the clip we played that "Here I am out in the woodshed, fully made up." But there are others you see on TV who obviously their makeup people are not there anymore. And it's quite interesting. But she is looking terrific. Is she doing it herself or does she have anybody helping her?

AH: No. No. There is nobody. Like from day one, there has been nobody that has showed up at their home. Nobody. She's doing it all herself. As women, we know how to do this. We know how to pull it off. I think she was worried at first, but like, fortunately, her husband is finding her good light [laughter]. He'd be in trouble if he wasn't. We were all pleasantly surprised. She's like, I want to shoot in this forest. And I'm like you look great.

CO: And we're seeing the season change out there. And every now and then there'll be a screeching hawk or somebody powers up a chainsaw close by. So it feels authentic, you know. And on that, you don't have the audience, right? That's a big part of a performer's -- especially in comedy you need to be hearing the audience laughing. So how difficult is it for her and for all of you to make comedy where you don't have an audience?

AH: Well, part of our show are field pieces. Like I do field pieces as a correspondent for the show and everything you're doing you never have an audience. It's always an interview or you're doing man on the streets and you're talking to people. You just instinctively know this joke is going to land, this joke is not going to land. So I think that's the tool she's using right now because she's used to not having an audience for field pieces. But yes, for the studio our audience is so important. Like you feed off -- it's an exchange of energy that we miss desperately. But, you know, I guess her audience are the birds and the forest bunnies. [Laughter]

CO: Tell her that we're out there laughing. So the audience is there. And please continue to make us laugh Allana. And thank you.

AH: Thank you. Thanks for chatting with me. I miss Canada a lot.

CO: Okay. Thank you for that. Take care.

AH: Bye Carol.

CH: Allana Harkin is a Canadian comedian and a producer at Full Frontal with Samantha Bee. We reached her in New York. And you can find more on this story on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Part 3: Encore: Forgiveness Feature

Encore: Forgiveness Feature

CH: Sometimes we need a reminder that people have the capacity to open their hearts at times when you least expect them to do so. Take Michael Berg. In 2004, his son Nicholas was an American contractor working in Iraq. Nicholas was captured and brutally killed by al-Qaeda. Two years later, the men believed to have murdered Nicholas Berg was himself killed in a US airstrike. But Michael Berg chose to forgive Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Here's how Mr. Berg explained his choice to As It Happens, guest host Christopher Thomas at the time.

[sc]

MICHAEL BERG: Well, my reaction was a human reaction of sadness at the death of any fellow human being. And there were people that loved him and there are people that are now suffering the same pain that my family and I have suffered. And I cannot, and I will not, ever, justify revenge because that would justify my son's death.

[/sc]

CH: A lot of people responded to Mr. Berg's act of forgiveness with anger. He was threatened and even shot at. But when Canadian singer-songwriter Peter Katz heard that interview on his car radio, he was so moved that he pulled over and began writing a song inspired by Mr. Berg's words. That song, which is called Forgiveness, had an impact on both the musician and the grieving father, and it created a bond between them. In 2018, Mr. Katz and Mr. Berg sat down with Carol to reconnect. Tonight we bring you an encore presentation of that feature interview.

CO: Hello, Michael.

MICHAEL BERG: Hello.

CO: And hello Peter, here in the studio with me.

PETER KATZ: Hello.

CO: It's extraordinary having both of you together.

PK: I feel that too, yes.

CO: Michael, I want to start with you because we heard some of your voice from that interview in 2006 in the introduction, and this is not long after you forgave your son's killer, someone who — a brutal murder of your son. And you said that you realized it was a response nobody wanted to hear. What did you mean by that?

MB: Well, people tried to talk me out of it. I think later that same day of that original interview Larry King interviewed me by telephone. And he kept saying ‘Well, come on Michael, this guy…’ And then he would be a lot more blunt than I would have wished him to be about what he did. And it just seemed like he just couldn't accept the fact, really as if he was accusing me of lying.

CO: And there was a lot of media coverage, right? And not just that, there were a lot of people who responded to you. People said horrible things to you, people in your face showing you photos and images and big banners of your son’s murder, and just so angry with you — someone took a shot at you. There was a bullet through a window at one point, it was just extraordinary.

MB: Yes, it was. Yes, it was.

CO: And how did you deal with that at the time?

MB: To tell you the truth, I think I was still pretty much living on adrenaline. And, as Peter said in his song, I felt like I had nothing left to lose. So I'm not normally as maybe brave or foolhardy as I was as far as exposing myself to possible dangers back then.

CO: You call yourself — you said ‘I'm in the ‘nothing left to lose club’ I think you said in our interview.

MB: Right. Right. Well, there were a lot of us back in the day. You know, I knew a lot of people who had lost children in the war and that's what we called ourselves.

CO: But you came to this point of forgiving al-Zarqawi not immediately. This is something that was a process, it took some months — about half-a-year — and you were describing that to us when we spoke to you in 2006. I just want to play a bit of what you said at that time.

[sc]

MB: I have to admit that it took a little bit of time. I never once asked for revenge against him because I knew that that was wrong. I knew that my son would say that that was wrong. But it took me a while, about half-a-year, I think, before I came to the point where I can honestly say that I forgave him. One day I opened up a catalogue that came in the mail that offered a course at nearby Immaculata University that was entitled to ‘Forgiveness: The way to love in a wounded world’ And I thought ‘I'm not a Catholic. I'm not a Christian. Not even a very good Jew, or even much of anything, but I have to take that course.’ And I took that course then I learned what forgiveness is all about.

[/sc]

CO: That was from 2006. Michael what did that course teach you about forgiveness?

MB: Well, I think one of the biggest things that it taught me was that to forgive someone is not to condone what they did. I certainly don't condone what Zarqawi did but it's basically, I would say, not to hate — and it is a process. This sister, Sister Sheila Callaghan, who taught that course at Immaculata said forgiveness is like quitting cigarettes. Sometimes you have to do it over and over again. So it is a process. And she was just so great in presenting things in such a way that anybody could accept them and explaining the nuances of the differences between condoning and forgiving and other things that people often confuse. Ultimately, forgiveness is for the person being forgiven, it's for the person who's doing the forgiving. And it changed my outlook on life in general, on my relations with people especially people close to me. And it's still a tremendous factor in my life.

CO: Is it fair to say that that course changed the course of your life?

MB: It certainly did. It's very fair to say.

CO: And Peter, I think it's safe to say that interview and Michael's words changed your life, didn't it?

PK: Yeah, they did. I just got emotional just listening to it again. And, I mean, it's funny just listening to it in today's Times, 12 years later and realizing that that message is still more important than ever. And at the time I was listening to Michael and as I was listening to this interview I just wasn't expecting the way that it was going to unfold and the reaction that he was describing. And when I found out later in the interview that people called him a coward and had shot at him I just said ‘Hang on a second, the message that this man is saying is that the most courageous, brave choice I've ever heard somebody ever make.’ And it felt like the antidote to this escalating hatred that was happening in the world, and just listening to it again today and it's still the answer. It still remains the answer, it still remains more important than ever. So I’m just so struck by it.

CO: Do you remember the details of the situation in which you listened to Michael in this interview?

PK: Yeah, I was driving along in my car — and Canadian musician spend a lot of time driving across Canada a lot of time listen to CBC and I would always listen As It Happens. And, you know, it's just one of those things it's on and you're listening to it and you're taking it in. But it's one of those interviews that I just kind of zeroed in on as I clued into what was being said. And to me the part that I was very moved just by Michael's reaction in and of itself, it was a very unexpected reaction. But what really kind of jolted me into action was the fact that, like I said, people shot at him and called him a coward and just put him through even more hell than I — I don't have a son, I don't know what it's like to lose one, let alone into the circumstances that Michael lost Nick. So when I found out that that people were doing that to him I just said that to me is just unconscionable and I need to do something about that and I need to somehow amplify his message. And yeah, the context of it was al-Zarqawi was this target and they were like ‘Hey, we got him and yay victory, mission accomplished,’ that kind of lingo. And they were using, I mean — I don't want to speak for Michael on this — but they were using Nick in the murder of al-Zarqawi as a reason to justify what they were doing.

CO: Revenge.

PK: Yeah.

CO: And the lyrics of your song, I'm just going to read the chorus then we're going to hear it later on so people know — they're not going to miss that. “So I guess I'm going to have to try forgiveness because man, you know, that's all that I've got left. My boy did not deserve this but neither do the rest. I guess I'm going to have to try forgiveness.” How did those words come to you?

PK: Those words came to me right away. I think I pulled over and wrote down those words. And then, as is often the case for me with writing, I kind of have the initial thing and then I knew I needed to just be with it because sometimes the sort of surface reaction is not deep enough and I immediately just cared about it so deeply and I and I knew that I was going to be singing in Michael's voice so I wanted to do it properly. It wasn't just about channeling my own feelings about it. I really wanted to amplify his voice. That was the goal. So I wrote those words down and then I actually ended up seeking out a copy of the interview that you guys had done. And I transcribed it, just so I could kind of practice putting words together in the way that Michael put words together, and really then just kind of worked from there and very carefully put it together.

CO: Michael, when you first heard the song, what was your reaction?

MB: I was overcome, I was totally overcome that in light of all the negative reactions that I had that someone would have such an understanding of what I meant and be so kind and so generous in his respect. It just overcame me. It still does every time I hear it.

CO: The two of you became friends, didn't you?

MB: We did. We still are.

PK: Yeah.

CO: What was the friendship based on? Was it just this moment or did you find you took it to a deeper place?

PK: Luke, who was Nick's next best friend, organized a concert and they created a scholarship in Nick's name they called it Berg-a-palooza and they invited me down to come perform at that concert. And so I went down to West Chester, Pennsylvania. And I stayed in guestroom Luke's house where he told me that Nick would have spent much time and then we did this concert. And I got to meet Michael, we went for coffee together in the afternoon and then I played this concert. And I stood on a stage, and in my view were Nick's friends and family and teachers and Michael and I got to play the song and my whole body shaking just thinking about that moment and how touched I felt to be able to do that and contribute in that way. And then several years in a row I went down and did that and then Michael and I were also invited to give a symposium on forgiveness at a college in Philadelphia in 2012 and we got to spend even more time together then, and I remember going for a long walk together in a park and just just enjoying our time together.

CO: I believe a generation difference, isn't there? I mean you would be closer to Nick's age.

PK: Yeah, yeah, I'm in my mid-30s, so I guess about the same as Nick would have been, is that right Michael?

MB: Nick would be 40, so pretty close.

PK: Five years younger, yeah.

CO: I was speaking with singer/songwriter Peter Katz, who wrote a song called Forgiveness inspired by an interview and As It Happens with Michael Berg, a man who is on the line from Norfolk, Virginia is someone who forgave his son's killer in Iraq. And I think we need to hear the song I think at this point. So I'm going to ask you to play it for us.

[sc]

PETER KATZ SINGING:

You ask me to explain it

Well there’s everything and nothing to say

Some things they happen

And once they do they never go away

They tell you that this life is eye for eye

Well man you know I think that’s all a lie

Oh I will not stoke the fire of this fight, when I know it isn’t right

So I guess I’m going to have to try forgiveness

‘Cause man you know it’s all that I’ve got left

My boy did not deserve this, but neither do the rest

I guess I’m going to have to try forgiveness

You can call me a coward

Call me whatever you chose

Once you could have hurt me

But now, I’ve nothing left to lose

Go on and spite me ‘cause I will not curse his name

Tell me though I’m broken, I am to blame

Well go on, but I won’t participate, in spreading all this hate

So I guess I’m going to have to try forgiveness

‘Cause man you know it’s all that I’ve got left

My boy did not deserve this, but neither do the rest

I guess I’m going to have to try forgiveness

They shot at me for speaking out against this tired war

Said "How can you lose one life and not demand one more?"

Well what good will it do us in the end?

There’s nothing that should justify revenge

And I stand now here before you

Living out the hardest test

And still I swear the only answer is: …forgiveness

Forgiveness

Forgiveness

Oh you know we’ve got to try forgiveness

‘Cause man you know it’s all that we’ve got left

Our boys and girls are watching and they’ve put us to the test

Come let's show them forgiveness

[/sc]

MB: Wow.

CO: It’s fair to say there is not a dry eye in the house here. Michael, I don't know how you're dealing with that.

MB: It's very moving. Very, very moving. Peter has a real talent at touching on emotion.

CO: I think he is a real talent at feeling it. There's a depth to that that, yeah, can only come from an inspiration though Michael and you were the inspiration.

MB: I don’t know what to say.

PK: It’s true, Michael. When I heard your voice on the radio that day I just, I felt like you were one of the bravest people that I have ever heard and it's been such a pleasure to get to know you and call you my friend. And I really just, I feel honored that I get to be of service to your message. And in my career that was the very, very beginning of me as a singer/songwriter and kind of testing the waters. And that song really was the affirmation that I needed, the confirmation that I needed that there was a place for my voice, so it's also changed my life in many ways.

MB: Well, you gave me hope for the human race because, as I said before, so much of the reaction was so very, very negative. And on that day that Zarqawi died, the interview with CBC, I think was the only one that was not adversarial. Your reaction has to be the most positive reaction I ever got to anything I said. And you did it with such emotion and love. I mean, you can just feel it through the words and your voice.

CO: What do you think your son Nicholas would think of all these developments, from the song to our conversation, how would you respond?

MB: Well, I don't know because he was a very modest and shy, in a way, person. And he probably wouldn't like all the publicity or people saying good things about him, I guess. I mean, he was just that kind of a person and his political views very different from mine. But, I think I said this in the original interview, he once told me that although our views were different he was proud of me for getting out and expressing mine — as I was of him for doing what he believed in.

CO: Peter, I can tell you have something you want to say to Michael and I’m going to just ask you if you want to have the last word here?

PK: I just wanted to say to you, Michael, you know, I wish I could have gotten to know Nick, but I feel like as the son of somebody, I know that he would be really proud of you and what you've done. And I'm really proud of you and I also want you to know, Michael, that I don't see you as a God-figure or something and I've appreciated that you haven't tried to paint yourself as anything other than a human being. You've always made me feel like this is a real thing, it doesn't take other worldly powers to be able to make a choice like you made it. It just takes that tapping into your humanity and doing the hard thing. Your message of forgiveness has helped me through the last twelve years in an immense way, and that moment of hearing your voice on the radio that day and writing that song just fundamentally changed my life in a huge way. So thank you.

MB: You deserve all the success you've had. And I too wish that Nick could have been on that walk in Wissahickon Park that you and I took. That would have been great.

CO: I admire both of you and I appreciate so much to have a chance to speak with you have you both together. Thank you both.

MB: You're welcome.

PK: Bye, Michael.

MB: Bye, Peter.

CH: That was Canadian musician Peter Katz speaking to Carol in the As It Happens studio in 2018. Michael Berg, whose son Nicholas was killed in Iraq in 2004, joined them from a studio in Norfolk, Virginia. And you can find that interview on our website: cbc.ca/aih. And before we leave you tonight, we have one more tale of forgiveness for you. 14 years is a long time to wait to be absolved, especially when it's not clear you did anything all that wrong. Back in 2003, during the National League Championship, a Chicago Cubs fan named Steve Bartman reached out of the stands for a ball, one that might otherwise have been caught by Moises Alou. The Cubs lost that game and the series and a lot of fans blamed and vilified Mr. Bartman. 12 years later, in 2015, Carol spoke with Chicago Tribune columnist John Kass, who said it was time for those fans to let it go.

CO: John first how has Mr. Bartman been treated by Cubs fans since that fateful Game 6 in 2003?

JOHN KASS: I was at that game. And Mr. Bartman reached out and touched the ball as others did and immediately he was ripped to shreds socially and outcast. I'm not trying to push Mr. Bartman back in the public eye but I think that the Cubs fans owe him an apology and should do so, and maybe they can sometime during the playoffs, to apologize to this innocent who touched the ball out of his love for Cub-ness and stepped into legend.

CO: How has he felt about this since he's been blamed for the Cubs not just losing the game but losing their luck?

JK: The Cubs lost their luck a long time ago - although things seemed to have changed and we'll find out who has luck at the end of the playoff run. Mr. Bartman to his credit seems to be quite an honourable man. He was offered six figure fees to participate in advertising and public relations efforts and refused. He did not want to cash-in on what happened.

CO: Has he come to the game since then? Has he been at a Cubs game?

JK: I don't know -- I haven't been to a Cubs -- maybe I have. I go to White Sox games. They are not of our worlds. I'm an American League fan, a White Sox fan, and we are very tribal. There are a few mixed marriages but it would be like the Maple Leafs and the Canadians.

CO: And there are mixed marriages between those two teams and their fans. But you have given advice to Cubs fans -- I guess they used to throw beer at him and he's been maligned by many of the fans -- but just to apologize to him and get him to come back and you think that might be a good talisman for them.

JK: An organized apology would be one thing. Second thing I've suggested that they make goat soup. My grandfather who was from Guelph, Ontario and we were in a restaurant there -- made excellent goat soup. And I would think it would be good if the Cubs fans would drink this broth with a little lemon, rice, little chunk of goat meat.

CO: Okay you might have to explain to people why. About the 'Billy Goat curse' is that what you are talking about? Well I think that not everyone knows about it so why don't you explain the Billy Goat curse?

JK: It is said among Cub fans that a tavern owner in Chicago 'Billy Goat' Sianis went to Wrigley Field in 1945 during the Cubs appearance at the World Series. He brought his goat with him and was turned away and ever since then there was this terrible curse -- that some say he spit three times after he did it which would obviate a curse according to the southern Mediterranean traditions. Others say no. The point being every year something terrible happens whenever they get in the playoffs. There was the earthquake -- what was it? In 1989.

CO: You blame the earthquake on the Billy Goat curse as well? Yeah but you think that it was caused by the Billy Goat curse?

JK: Don't try to... I'm in the media too Carol. [Laughter] Don't try to put words in my mouth -- I'm just offering you possibilities out there. So the only way that I think to remove their problems they have to acknowledge their sins with Bartman and they should drink goat soup and I think if these two things happened they might have a chance. People are [inaudible] and jealous and I think that baseball should be about love.

CO: Okay. So speaking of love, of course there's a lot of love for the Blue Jays right now.

JK: What a team.

CO: Cubs against the Blue Jays in the World Series? We go that far?

JK: I would like it. Except there's one thing wrong with the Blue Jays. Of all the great things that they do with great hitting, great pitching, Mark Buehrle is not on the playoff roster. I think they could have used that veteran somewhere.

CO: Yikes! I thought you were going to say the problem is that it is in Canada.

JK: I told you, I'm half Canadian. However, I will tell you that good luck to Toronto. It's a wonderful country.

CO: All right. Well we'll leave it there John and we'll watch for that goat soup.

JK: Thank you.

CO: Thank you.

CH: That was Chicago Tribune columnist John Kass speaking to Carol in 2015. Well, forgiveness did arrive eventually after the Cubs won the 2016 World Series. The club's owners awarded Steve Bartman his own World Series ring as a gesture of goodwill. In response, Mr. Bartman released a statement that said, quote, "I humbly received the ring not only as a symbol of one of the most historic achievements in sports, but as an important reminder of how we should treat each other in today's society."

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April 10, 2020 Episode Transcript

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