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The AIH Transcript for April 6, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Just when he needs them the most. A Newfoundland man says he's been shunned by his community after his girlfriend's funeral was linked to the spread of COVID-19.

CH: Put to the test. Patty Hajdu says her government is doing everything it can to fight the virus. But questions remain about when they'll deliver widespread testing to track it in Canada.

CO: Come from away. Newfoundland's premier invokes the lessons of history and a hit musical to deliver a message to the president of the United States.

CH: Stay or go. Our guest wants to move her mother out of an auto on nursing home over fears of a future COVID-19 outbreak. But if she does, she risks losing a spot that took years to get.

CO: He is big on the web. A UK man goes viral after he and a friend cheer up children and their luck downtown by running through the streets dressed as Spider-Man.

CH: And a bat's three rules of real estate: echolocation, echolocation, echolocation. From our daily dip into the As It Happens archive's, the story of an unwanted flying visitor who mistook our guests home for an open house and became an Internet sensation due to the filmmakers desperate cries of "Catch him Derry!" As It Happens. The Monday Edition. Radio that can admit to just this one bat habit.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Buchans Covid Shaming

Buchans Covid Shaming

Guest: Shannon Harris

CH: Shannon Harris needs the support of his small town more than ever right now. The man from Buchans, Newfoundland, is mourning the death of his girlfriend who died of complications from diabetes. But instead of sympathy, Mr. Harris says he's being shunned. That's because his girlfriend's funeral in mid-March is among a number of gatherings that have been linked to the province's COVID-19 cases. We reached Shannon Harris in Barkin's, Newfoundland.

CO: Shannon, first of all, I'm sorry for your loss of your girlfriend.

SHANNON HARRIS: Thank you.

CO: Can you tell us about the news that you got that the funeral for your girlfriend may have helped spread the coronavirus in Newfoundland? How did you feel about that?

SH: I was shocked. I just came home to resume normal life and try to get back into the routine of everything as much as I could. But it was days later, right? I'd already been here three days. I got up. I was in a good mood. I put on my coffee. I sat down and I was getting ready to check my messages. And there was one message there from a friend of mine at a store, which was an odd message. And it was like, ding, ding. And two messages in a row. "Hey, man, can you call me?" So I was like, "Okay. This is weird." And so when he call, he was like, "Hey man. Were you at the funeral?" And I was like, yeah man you know this. He's like well there's something on the Internet that you should probably see. And I was like, yeah, I'm getting a bunch of messages here now while I'm talking to you. So I guess I'm going to have to go find out what's going on. So he was just like, I'll give you a heads up -- it's bad news. He's like, there was a COVID case confirmed at the funeral. And until we know for sure, you can't come to the store. So I was like okay man thanks for letting me know.

CO: This is your local grocery store?

SH: Yeah.

CO: And that wasn't the only reaction that you got. You got some pretty nasty ones as well, didn't you?

SH: Absolutely. Yeah. There was turmoil in town. Everybody was scared that I was after bringing this virus into town and spreading it around amongst the community. And it's a completely isolated community. There's like literally no way for anything to get here unless it came.

CO: How many people in Buchans got COVID-19?

SH: None.

CO: But people from the funeral got it?

SH: Yeah.

CO: And you tested negative?

SH: Negative, yeah.

CO: But does that change anything? Telling people you tested negative.

SH: It didn't at first. There was so much, I guess, malice and discontent here. Like, I don't know. They thought that I didn't have any community spirit, we'll say. They thought that I didn't have the community's best interests at heart, so it wouldn't hurt me to hurt them.

CO: But why were you to blame for what had happened at the funeral home?

SH: I wasn't. That's the thing.

CO: Why do they feel that you were to blame?

SH: I don't know. I really don't know. Because, like I said, it's spread from a social media post to community knowledge to community discontent.

CO: There's now known to be 143 cases linked to that funeral home. That's about 75 percent of all the cases in the province.

SH: All the cases, yeah.

CO: And in your community, they feel somehow you brought it in.

SH: I guess so.

CO: But no one in your family has come down with it.

SH: No.

CO: And what about in your girlfriend's family?

SH: Eight of her immediate family tested positive. And (masking correction). No -- nine. The last positive result came back yesterday afternoon.

CO: Does your girlfriend's family blame you as well?

SH: No, not at all.

CO: So it's just the community.

SH: Yeah.

CO: Did you think that by now things might have gone back to normal since you had the negative response on COVID?

SH: It's just mixed emotions from people. Like some people you know, they talk to me like they normally would, and other people just kind of stare at me as if I'm still covered in plague.

CO: Your girlfriend died of non-COVID related illnesses she had, right?

SH: Yeah.

CO: Have you had a chance to grieve given all this?

SH: I had grieved during the week of the funeral procession. And it was a beautiful service. Like, I mean, it was amazing. We had people singing. And it was a tremendous sendoff for such a beautiful spirit.

CO: And has all this overshadowed your attempts to remember your girlfriend?

SH: It will never overshadow my remembrance of her at all. I mean, for the past 20 years, she's been one of, if not, my best friend in the whole wide world.

CO: I'm so sorry. Just finally, what advice would you give to other communities when an outbreak like this happens -- what would you like people to understand?

SH: Get all the facts of the story before you attack the person and family. I'm reeling still from all of it. And I mean, up until I got the last call from the Department of Public Health to say, okay, you've been completely cleared, I haven't been able to relax because at that point they were still telling me that I could be contagious. It's been so scary. And we've got so many friends that have been affected and their children are affected. It's like the worst ripple effect you could ever imagine from one thing that should have been a celebration of life. So I guess what I'd want people to take away from it is consider everybody else before you make an assumption.

CO: Shannon I'm sorry this has happened to you in the wake of what happened to your girlfriend. I appreciate you telling us this story.

SH: Thank you.

CO: Thank you.

CH: Shannon Harris recently found out that a number of colvard 19 cases have been linked to his girlfriend's funeral in mid-March. We reached Mr. Harris in Buchans, Newfoundland.

[Music]

Bringing Parents Home

Guest: Marta Chartier

CH: As cases of COVID-19 continue to rise across Canada, the virus seems to be spreading fastest and most lethally in long term care centres. Last week, Theresa Tam, Canada's Chief Public Health Officer, said that more than half of all COVID-19 deaths in Canada have been among residents of seniors homes. So it's not surprising that some people are moving their loved ones out of those residences to take care of them at home. Marta Chartier would like to do that for her mother. Lois Chartier is a resident of the Extendicare Medex home in Ottawa. But moving Lois out of the home is not a simple decision for her daughter to make. We reached Marta Chartier in Ottawa.

CO: Marta, how is your mom doing?

MARTA CHARTIER: You know what? I can't really tell you that because I haven't been allowed to go see her. From what I understand from the home, they always say she's doing okay -- no matter what the conditions are. I am grateful in a way that she is not fully cognitive of what's going on because then she would panic if she understood everything that was going on. I'm concerned about my father because he does understand everything and he's getting extremely anxious and he's getting extremely lonely. I would still like to take my mother out and have her stay with my father until this whole thing is over.

CO: Why do you think your mother would be safer or better off if you moved her out of that home?

MC: Because my father doesn't go anywhere. He stays in the apartment all the time. So basically, she would be quarantined with my dad in his apartment. And there is a lot of staff at where my mother is staying at right now and there's a lot of patients. I think that all it's going to take is one person coming in that has COVID-19, and they're just going to be able to pass it throughout the entire home. Whereas if she's with my dad, it's easier to control.

CO: Your dad is where?

MC: He is right across the street. He lives in the apartment building right across the street from anmy mother's home.

CO: And what would he need to do in order to take care of your mom in his apartment?

MC: Well, my brothers and I have already discussed it. And we'll be taking care of their food and any necessities like that and dropping it off. My dad did take care of my mother before she was placed in long term care. So there's nothing really that he has to do. I mean, he'd be helping her, you know, get out of bed, which he did before, you know, remind her to take her medication. As I said, food is something that I'll take care of with my brothers, but that's about it. She is able to walk around. She is mobile. She uses a walker. But they're not allowed to go anywhere. So it's not like they could go out for these long walks.

CO: What are your mother's conditions?

MC: She has Alzheimer's dementia.

CO: Has there been any reported cases of COVID-19 in the facility where she's staying?

MC: No. No. And I've been checking daily and there hasn't been any. But I also don't want to wait until there is one.

CO: We know that there have been at least 40 long term care and retirement homes in Ontario, where there's been an outbreak ofCOVID-19 and there have been about 40 deaths so far that we know related to them.

MC: I know every time I turn on the news or I listen to it in the morning, I can't believe what's going on. And I can't believe that we're still being told that we're not allowed to take her out otherwise, she will lose her bed.

CO: You are allowed to take her out, but with conditions. What are they?

MC: I received an email. The conditions are that if I take her out, she'd be listed as discharged. And when I want to put her back in again, then we would have to put her name back on a waiting list. And although they said that they will be giving priority to patients who were there before, it's still going to be a waiting list.

CO: And what would that mean for you to have her back on a waiting list?

MC: My dad is able to take care of my mom for a couple of months, but long term I just don't think he would be able to. And I think would be very stressful if my mom was put back on a waiting list and we have to go through the whole process again. You know, we agreed to keep paying for my mother's room like on a monthly basis. And they still said, no, that's not what it was about. It was about the fact that once we take her out, she's considered discharged.

CO: So you agreed to pay the fees and the costs of having that room without her in it?

MC: Yes.

CO: And why do you understand that they still won't accept that?

MC: Well, that's what they say. But they did send me an email saying that if you take them out, they're considered to be discharged. So even though if I wanted to keep paying for her room, that wouldn't matter. They would still consider her discharged and they would give her bed to somebody else.

CO: Now this is not necessarily the policy of this nursing home or this long term care home. This is the policy of the interior ministry. Is that not the case?

MC: Yes, it is. When all of this happened last week, I had heard that if you have a loved one in long term care, and if you're able to take them out, you should be considering taking them out. So that's what started this. I didn't think I'd be told no. I thought, okay, the worst case scenario is they're going to say, well, can you keep up the payments to hold her spot? And as soon as I brought that up, they said, no. If you take her out, she's considered discharged and she has to go through the whole process again.

CO: My understanding is that the reason why the government has this policy is because of the shortage of beds, the shortage of places for seniors and for people needing that care in those homes. And that's why they regard anyone who leaves is being discharged. Do you think that's unreasonable?

MC: I think in this day and age, yes. And this is something nobody's had to deal with before. Everybody's making considerations. You know, employers are letting employees work from home. There's all kinds of things that are happening. And I think in this time, yes, I do think it's pretty unreasonable. The other thing you hear about is how short staffed they are. Well, if I can free up somebody, then that would be a bonus. But they don't see it like that. And I also know that if you take your parents out for, let's say, for a summer holiday or for a vacation, they're not discharged. You're allowed to take them off for a short period of time. Except now.

CO: So what are you going to do now?

MC: Honestly, I don't know. I'm just waiting for the day that I get a call or I see on the news that it has broken out in her home. I don't know what other steps I can do. You know, I've gone to the media. I'm talking to my brothers about what we should do. And the point is, is that we really don't have a choice right now. But to do what they say and that's if we take her out, we have to list her as discharged then.

CO: Just finally, the facility where your mother is staying -- they say first of all they haven't had an outbreak, but they also say that they believe that it's the best environment for loved ones and they can be cared for by professional staff with experience in infection control and isolation procedures. I'm reading from the letter. And so do you not have any faith or trust in this facility to provide that?

MC: No. I've had a few problems with where my mother is staying. My mother shares a room with somebody else. So I don't know how they can, you know, do the quarantine and social distancing. I don't think that they are equipped to deal with this. They're not equipped to deal with it when it's flu season. Everybody in the home seems to spread it around like crazy. Everybody gets sick. It doesn't exactly make me felt very confident during this particular pandemic that they're going to be able to handle it if it does happen there.

CO: Marta I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you. I hope your mom's okay.

MC: Thank you for saying that.

CO: Okay. Take care.

MC: Bye.

CH: Marta Chartier is trying to move her mother out of her nursing home to lessen her chances of contracting COVID-19. But if her mother leaves, she risks losing her place at the home. We reached Marta Chartier in Ottawa.

[Music]

From Our Archives: Catch Him Derry!

CH: Maybe you're arguing with your significant other about which season of RuPaul's Drag Race to rewatch. Maybe your kids are hogging your computer when you need it for work or to watch RuPaul's Drag Race. And if you're on your own, maybe the fort you made out of rolls of toilet paper is no longer comforting. But no matter how fed up you are with being cooped up in your house, it could be worse. There could be a bat in there with you.

[sc]

VOICE 1: Catch him! Catch him Derry! Derry catch him! There's a bat. You ever had one in the house?! You're doing a great job, Derry. Stand up there. Oh! Did you get him? No, he's there. He's making a mockery of you. Derry the dog is peeing! [Laughs] Maureen you're no help behind the door.

[/sc]

CH: Just some of the drama captured in the video released by Tadhg Fleming of Ballymacelligott, Ireland, three years ago. A bat had gotten into the Fleming house, and Tadhg was urging his father, Derry, to take action and criticizing his mother, Maureen, for her inaction. Tonight, we go back to September of 2017 when Carol spoke with the creator and the star of that video from our archives. Here's her conversation with Tadhg and Derry Fleming.

CO: Tadhg, I want to start with you. Has anyone in your town of Ballymacelligott ever received this much attention?

TADHG FLEMING: No one. I'd say I put Ballymacelligott on the map. I say it’ll be visited by everyone now to visit “Bat-Dad” But it's crazy how mad it's gotten.

CO: And you mentioned “Bat Dad” — that that's what you're calling your dad — Derry, your son's calling you Bat Dad. What are people calling you? Are you picking up that name — Bat Dad?

DERRY FLEMING: Yes, I sure am. And people are coming into the office while I work, they’re saying, “oh you know the guy Bat Man — is he around?

[LAUGHTER]

CO: And this is all because of this crazy video Tadgh, that you made and posted, and so describe how the bat got into your house?

TF: Oh my God, it was absolutely nuts. So my mom was doing the ironing in the kitchen and then she went out the back door, and she left the back door open, and the bat came straight in. And then she ran out to the hall and started looking through the window, and she left the bathroom there with myself and my dad. My immediate reaction was to take the phone out and start videoing it, and putting it up on Snapchat, and then I hid behind another door in the utility, and I just let my dad one-on-one with the bat, and it just was pure chaos. We’re only after getting a pup, and have him a week, and in the midst of the whole, my dad try to catch the bath, the pup did his business on the floor. My dad was in my football shorts and wolly socks up to his knees, and it was just absolutely crazy. You couldn't write it, like it was a comedy.

CO: Now Tadgh, you said that your first instinct was to pick up the phone and start filming. So, I mean, why wasn't your first instinct to pick up something and try to catch the bat along with your dad?

TF: It was just because I'm always videoing, I'm always doing snapchat, I’m always doing comedy sketches with my dad, and I seen him in my with the shorts, and with the socks up to his knees, and I was like — and he was he just got a tea towel, a small, little tea towel, that you knew he wasn't going to catch the bat with that. And I just said, “Oh my God, I've got to get this on.” And as I was videoing I was trying to help him out. I think I was hindering him more than anything else — he couldn't catch him. I was just trying to get him, to get him, and get him out of the house safely. And like my mom then looking in, it was just, it was hilarious, like the whole thing.

CO: Derry, do you think your son could have helped you? Did you need his help at any point?

[LAUGHTER]

DF: Let me tell you, my son was as as mom. He was petrified and that's why he ran behind the door.

CO: So he wasn't going to be much help to you anyway.

DF: No he wasn't. It was right. He was petrified really. He left all the work to his dad because of course, like I have to protect the family like — we thought it might be vampire bat.

CO: And you are the man of the house and you were protecting him.

DF: You know I have to protect my family at all costs — even risking my own life.

[LAUGHTER]

CO: Now Derry, your son's teasing you that you picked up a tea towel to start that.

DF: What i caught in the beginning it would be easier like, with a small one, because my first priority like was not harm the little creature. And it can fly, I think 40 miles per hour. So that's why the towel got a bit bigger so I went for the back towel.

CO: And that's how you finally caught it? Now OK, so you've both mentioned, besides you, and your son and the bat, there was another character here, which was your mom, and your wife. So, and, well we can hear in the video you say — what is it you're saying to your mom Tadgh?

TF: I was like, tell her stop looking through the window Maureen.

DF: We thought that she was frightening the bat by looking through the window.

TG: And she was putting my dad off as well.

CO: How was she putting your dad off?

TF: He was there and he was looking at her watching him trying to capture the bat. And I think he was under pressure because the bat was panicking around the place. So I went over to her and I said, “Would you back away from the window please?”

CO: Now Tadgh can I point out to you, that you were in behind another window, doing exactly the same thing that your mother was doing?

[LAUGHTER]

TF: I know. I’ve seen a load of comments saying, “Why was he giving out to the mom when he was worse than her?”

CO: Exactly. So what's your answer to that?

TF: Well, my answer is that I think that I was, I was, I was afraid of the bat alright, but I was trying to “man up” myself, but no it wasn't working. I was behind the door, and my mom was the door and my dad was the only fella who took on the bat and safely removed him.

CO: All right, so you mentioned one more character was introduce into this movie, which is your little puppy.

TF: Basil.

DF: Basil.

CO: Basil? Where did you get that name — is it after Fawlty Towers?

DF & SF: Yes. It was a comedy show.

CO: So Derry, what was the puppy doing through all of this?

DF: Well the puppy was — I actually had forgotten about the puppy at this stage like with the pandemonium. So, I think, first of all, you got a bit of a panic with all that was going on. So he decided to take a leak. So I didn't realize this until after I had the socks on. You know, I could wait.

[LAUGHTER]

CO: So in the middle of all this Basil was peeing on the floor?

DF: Yes.

CO: And Tadgh catches it. Tadhg you gave you gave blow-by-blow commentary of all this.

TF: I had a bird's eye view of what was going on. I could see my mom, I could see my dad, I could see the dog it was a great vantage point of everything that was going on. And thank God filmed it because we have it now forever. And the amount of people saying that they got a good laugh out of it. And it was an honest kind of fun, and a video that people can, like, sit back and just laugh, at it and just, kind of — it's like your typical Irish family — but I kind of captured the moment on video.

CO: Just a typical Irish family — and a bat.

[LAUGHING]

TF: And a bat, and a dog as well.

CO: Tadhg, Derry, it's great to speak with you. Thank you.

BOTH: OK. Thank you very much.

CO: And good night to you both.

CH: For the archives, Carol speaking with Tadhg and Derry Fleming in 2017.

[Music]

Part 2: Health Minister Patty Hajdu

Health Minister Patty Hajdu

Guest: Patty Hajdu

CH: This afternoon, Patty Hajdu repeated her plea for Canadians to fight the pandemic by staying home and sitting tight. But the federal health minister knows people are antsy. Provincial premiers are warning that they're running out of protective equipment for health workers. The Trump administration is cutting off those supplies. And health officials say they're still ramping up testing. We reached Canada's Minister of Health Patty Hajdu in Ottawa.

CO: Minister Hajdu, where is Canada right now in our battle with his virus?

PATTY Hajdu: Well, thank you. And that's a complicated question to answer, just because obviously different provinces are in different situations with the coronavirus and with their efforts. But I will say that obviously many provinces are ascending their curve, as you will, and the efforts that Canadians are collectively making as to flatten that curve and to reduce the number of infections that happen so quickly all at once so that we can protect our health care system and ensure support for people who become more ill.

CO: But, you know, the line people are citing often is that you can't fight an enemy, blind. And what we're seeing is that in a number of other countries, some countries have been doing widespread testing, even with people who have no symptoms. And they have found that a very effective way to fight this. That's where we see the curve flattening earlier than others. Why doesn't Canada do that? Why don't we do widespread testing here?

PH: Well, in fact, we're one of the top countries in terms of our testing per capita. And as our testing capacity expands, of course, other parameters will expand in terms of who can be tested. But I think Dr. Tam has spoken quite eloquently about the testing strategy and why it is that testing someone, for example, who has no symptoms may not give you a good sense of whether or not that person has been infected or will be infected in the future. And the strategies have to be very specific to detecting coronavirus in our communities. As you know, and I think today our number is a bit higher, but the percentage of tests that we've conducted have showed about 5 percent of those as positive. And that means that we're within the range that the World Health Organization has said of three to about twelve percent being that you're testing strategy of accurately detecting coronavirus activity in your country. And again, as we develop more testing capacity, different kinds of tests, I think those will be useful in terms of the next steps for how we get ourselves out of this situation.

CO: And I guess, again, going back to the idea of you can fight an enemy, blind. Do you have a good sense of how many cases? We've been told with the known cases which are between at this point fifteen and sixteen thousand in Canada. But you have modeling, you have projections. Why not release that? Why can't we know what you know?

PH: So we will be releasing the modeling this week. But again, the modeling nationally is different than the modeling provincially. And it's more of an aggregate of what might be happening in the country. The provincial modeling is actually more accurate, if you will, in terms of what's happening in their own particular jurisdiction and with their own data. Certainly modeling is one way to potentially predict what might happen. But I will still say that modeling really just gives you sort of a range of scenarios that may happen. And it's very useful for epidemiologists in terms of looking at additional measures that could be applied and what potential benefit you might get from those measures. But I think it doesn't answer the question that Canadians are looking for, which is really: what happens next and how do we get out of this? And modeling is actually more of a predictive tool for public health officials in terms of what else has to happen to flatten the curve.

CO: Okay. I'll put this to you, last week Ontario Premier Doug Ford released projections, released the modeling and told people that there could possibly be sixteen hundred people in Ontario who die this month from the virus. Is it possible that a lot more people perhaps stayed in on this weekend, followed the rules more closely because they heard that? I mean, the point people are making is that if you let people know, if you just hear that there's 15,000 cases, doesn't seem like a lot. But if we know what you know, that maybe people might be more and more stringent in following the regulations and the rules you put out.

PH: Well, certainly we know that people are taking it seriously in Canada. And actually we can see that from the data that we're gathering. But listen as I've said, we'll be releasing our modeling nationally this week. And Canadians will have a sense of what the range of possibilities are in terms of outcomes. But I will say this. I mean, I think as we see cases grow in communities across the country, Canadians are taking this seriously. They know that the actions they're taking today are protecting the lives of the people that they love, their neighbours, of their elderly relatives and of their young relatives. And so I think it's to me heartwarming that Canadians are actually taking this seriously. It's a tough time for everyone. And certainly, obviously, additional data helps, but we know that Canadians are taking this very seriously.

CO: But on the issue of protecting. Do people in the front lines have the personal protective equipment they need -- the PPEs? Are we seeing that the health care workers have what they need? We just heard Doug Ford tell us that the order of masks that he wanted, all of it didn't come. He only had a part of that order. Are people getting the equipment they need?

PH: We're working really closely with the provinces and territories to make sure we understand what stock they haven't had and what they urgently need as they experience the various pressures on the health care system. As I said last week, this is an environment where all countries are now competing for extremely difficult to acquire personal protective equipment. We've made some headway, particularly on surgical masks and gloves, for example, but we have more to procure in terms of N95 masks and gowns. It's not going to be solely something we can accomplish from procuring from overseas. We also have, as you know, many domestic solutions. Companies have come forward in volume to come up with innovation and ways to produce the kinds of equipment that we need. So this is really an all hands on deck moment for Canada. And we're completely grateful to the number of partners that are working to procure that equipment for frontline workers.

CO: If I'm hearing you correctly, you're saying you cannot guarantee that they will have the equipment while they are fighting this virus?

PH: I am saying that we are doing everything humanly possible, including procuring with provinces and territories like Ontario, like Alberta, like BC and supporting smaller jurisdictions, even local hospitals to procure from a variety of different sources. And the more that we work together as a country, the larger our orders are, which then enables us to have a better chance of procuring. But listen, we are working, as I said, day and night --I have to say, with all of our procurement partners at every level of government to try and ensure that we can get what we need. And we are also ensuring that our domestic production has the capacity, has the licensing to go forward and produce equipment for Canada, that's a homegrown solution.

CO: Just very quickly, just a few seconds left. Do you have any kind of projection as to when the distancing, the lockdowns might be eased?

PH: You know, I think that's the question that everyone's looking to solve. Certainly, I think we'll have more to say this week in terms of some of the strategy about how that might come about. But no, I don't have a prediction for how long. I do know that we are going to need to maintain this for at least several more weeks as we protect that health care system, as provinces go through their various surges. It is very very important that we ensure that not everybody gets sick at once so that we can make sure that when someone gets very seriously sick or needs ICU, that there will be the space for them. And that's the work that we're all doing together as Canadians.

CO: We will leave it there for now. Minister Hajdu thank you.

PH: Thank you very much.

CH: Patty Hajdu is the federal health minister. She's in Ottawa.

[Music]

Dwight Ball

CH: Dwight Ball offered Donald Trump a reminder yesterday. A reminder about recent history and human decency. The Newfoundland premier was responding to the US president's decision to invoke the Defense Production Act, to ban exports of key virus fighting equipment to Canada. Here's some of what Premier Ball had to say.

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DWIGHT BALL: In 2001, our province stepped up in the biggest way possible. When the United States was in crisis after the terrorist attacks in New York, Newfoundland and Labrador accepted with open arms thousands of people from around the world. With no questions asked, with no prompting, Newfoundlanders and Labradorians acted fast and they did what was necessary. Today, we are no different. We help others. That is ingrained in our nature. Since 9/11, Newfoundland and Labrador's hospitality has drawn worldwide attention, especially through the Broadway musical "Come from Away." So today, to say that I am infuriated with the recent actions of President Trump of the United States is an understatement. I cannot believe for a second, in a time of crisis, that President Trump would even think about banning key medical supplies to Canada. Newfoundland and Labrador will never give up on humanity. We will not hesitate for one second if we had to repeat what we did in 9/11. We would do it again. This is a time when we need to work together to continue to protect our residents and to keep them safe from COVID-19, no matter where they live or what passport they hold. COVID-19, is a turning point in our history and the people of our province will continue to shine with their kind nature and willingness to go above and beyond for those who need it the most. As leader of this province, I am beyond proud. More than ever, we need one another. And we will continue to work with our colleagues, work with the federal government and work with you to do whatever it takes to protect and support you as best we can. The time is now. It's by working together that we will get through this. Thank you.

[/sc]

CH: That was Newfoundland Premier Dwight Ball speaking yesterday in St. John's.

[Music]

Brenda Brydges

CH: At some condo buildings in Winnipeg, the social distancing rules just aren't sticking. That prompted one desperate property manager to offer people cheques to stay inside their units. Brenda Brydges is the president of a company that manages 10000 condo residents and apartment tenants. Today, she shared her frustration on CBC's Information Morning.

[sc]

BRENDA BRYDGES: We got a large number of phone calls from the residents who are truly afraid of the people that are not self isolating and that are not practicing social distancing. Well, about four weeks ago, we sent out a huge package to everyone telling them what they should be doing. You know, not riding the elevator with more than one person, staying apart from each other. We're considered boots on the ground and we are getting calls for help, but we don't have any authority to help anyone.

MARCY MARKUSA: So people are calling about the elevators.. What other spaces in the building or people calling with concerns about?

BRENDA BRYDGES: Exercise rooms. We have locked up exercise rooms with a "do not use" signs on it, but people are still breaking into those rooms and using the exercise equipment. People that are still meeting in the lobbies, even though we've taken the furniture away, they still meet in the lobby and carry on socializing.

MARCY MARKUSA: Can you do anything?

BRENDA BRYDGES: All we can do is phone them and tell them to stop doing it. We have no power to stop anything at all, physically. As a matter of fact, we have one seniors building where what we've actually done is we said to everyone that will obey the rules we'll send them a cheque for $100 each month. I've been in contact with the police chief's office and asked if there's something they can do. But they said until the mayor gives them the authority to actually step in and take some steps, they're powerless.

MARCY MARKUSA: What's prompted you to go public with this?

BRENDA BRYDGES: I had a phone call from a lady [chokes up] on the weekend -- last weekend. And she was just in tears. She said that she was trying to just go into the elevator to go downstairs to pick up a food delivery. And there was a man who was riding the elevator up and down, up and down, and wouldn't let her in. And she wanted me to go and help her. There was nothing I could do.

MARCY MARKUSA: Are all the people just saying, it's my space and I don't have to listen, that's just the nature of this?

BRENDA BRYDGES: That's what the majority of them are saying, like basically, who are you to try and tell me what to do? Even when we phoned them, a lot of times they just hang up on us. They wouldn't even listen to what we have to say. And like I said, we've sent out detailed packages asking them for help, but without some teeth behind it, we're just barking in the wind.

[/sc]

CH: Brenda Brydges, president of Brydges Property Management, speaking with CBC Winnipeg host Marcy Markusa this morning.

[Music]

Spider-man Jogger

Guest: Jason Baird

CH: He may not be the hero we deserve, but Jason Baird is definitely the hero we need right now. For the past few days, the martial arts instructor has been running through the streets of Stockport, England, near Manchester, and he's been attracting a lot of attention, not because of how he runs, but because of how he looks. Well, he does it. When Mr. Baird takes to the streets, he doesn't just wear a tracksuit or yoga pants. He goes out dressed as your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man. We reached Jason Baird in Stockport.

CO: Jason, they say a crisis can show us who we really are. And it turns out that you're Spider-Man.

JASON BAIRD: Yeah. Well, for the time being, I'm Spider-Man.

CO: How did this get started?

JB: It was actually through one of my employees and good friends. I run a martial arts school in Stockport, in Manchester, and obviously through being in lockdown we continue our classes for the kids via Facebook Live and Zoom over the Internet. And Andrew came out dressed as Spider-Man just to cheer the kids up. And all the kids went crazy about it. They loved it. So the day after he went to walk to the shops to just get some bread and milk and stuff for his house dressed as Spider-Man and his community then just started posting all over Facebook: "Have you seen Spider-Man? Have you seen Spider-Man?" So I decided to join in. And I went and got my own Spider-Man outfit from a good friend who I knew who had one. And then just went out on the daily jog, my hour jog. And just everyone started going crazy about it in our local community. And it just spread like wildfire.

CO: Now, you say you go out for your hour because in the UK you're allowed to go out for an hour of exercise. And so you're using that to go around as Spider-Man. But I mean, do you do whatever a spider can -- as the song goes? Do you do more than just run?

JB: Yeah. Well, I try to do my best. I'm a competent gymnast and martial artist. I've done martial arts since I was five years of age. And I'm 34 now. And I set up my martial arts school when I was 17 years of age. So I can flip and do acrobatics and stuff like that. So when my legs aren't so tired and I see a little spider girl or spider boy, I always try and make it as authentic as possible. So I do even try and sound -- I try my best American accent as well. But yeah, I do all the poses, the web-swinging, every car that goes past I make sure I'm shooting my webs at every car or at a lorry that goes past.

CO: Okay. Give us your American accent as Spider-Man.

JB: Oh I knew you were going to ask. So I normally say (In American accent) "Hey kids! How are you doing today? Are you being good? Are you listening to mom?" I tried my best. I'm not the best at accents.

CO: We have many American listeners and I'm sure they're having a good laugh right now.

JB: I know. They're probably going to start unfollowing me on Facebook now.

CO: So the kids love you. Tell us about some of the responses you've had.

JB: Oh, absolutely fantastic. We've got the whole of our area now that are actually dressing up like Spider-Man and the Hulk and Iron Man. And I went for a jog the other day and someone was playing the Spider-Man theme tune, like throughout the whole house at full volume. The whole windows had all pictures of Spider-Man. They had all the toys by the window. So the point is, like people are putting just signs everywhere. He's become like a local celebrity at the moment. But we've got so many more people now doing the same. They're got obviously going out with respect to government guidelines, going out on their own to get their daily exercise. But we've got Woody and Buzz Lightyear. We've got Batman, Superman, Flash. Everyone's dressing up now, which is fantastic.

CO: And I guess a lot of his costumes, including the Spider-Man, comes with its own built in face mask.

JB: It does. Yeah. So that's what I always say I make sure when I'm making my videos for the kids, I'm making sure that I saying that spidey has got his mask on and his glove. And he's keeping social distance in place.

CO: A lot of the kids are so down. They're all cooped up in the house in the UK as they are here. And so it must be really something for them to see you come down the street. What do you think you're doing for the kids? What do you think? It's more than just a moment's entertainment. What do you think it means for them to see you?

JB: I think more than anything, it's just trying to keep morale high. I've got two children myself. I've got a seven month old son and a five year old daughter. And obviously, we're getting questions from my daughter now saying: why can't I see my friends. Why can't I go out and play? Why can't I go to my dance class? So it's trying to get a point across obviously, the government and everybody is trying to do but in a more playful way from Spider-Man and a superhero book. It's just making them just feel happy and upbeat. Because I know staying in the house for so long, the parents are going to get a little bit stressed out with trying to school the children at home, finding things for them to do. So I think it's just keeping spirits high, morale high with something exciting.

CO: And what does your five year old think of her dad being Spider-Man?

JB: She loves it. She's actually told all the teachers now by Whatsapp. But I kept it secret for the first time I went out. I actually got changed in secret, crept out the house, and then knocked on the window. So she was the first person to see me as Spider-Man. She didn't know it was me. We've had to tell her that daddy's working with the real Spider-Man now just to patrol the streets and make sure everyone's safe. But she loves it. She was dressed up as spider girl this morning.

CO: Here in Canada -- in Paradise, Newfoundland -- there's someone who's dressed up as Spider-Man in the neighbourhood, sharing that with the local kids. So do you think this will be a bit of a movement?

JB: Yeah, I do definitely. I've had pictures sent me from Japan, from Italy. It does seem to be now not just staying to the U.K. It seems to be going global now. Obviously, just encourage everybody to make sure they keep in government rules and regulations and keeping social distancing and obviously not putting themselves in danger and anybody else as well. Yeah, I think it's fantastic. And I can't thank everybody enough for all the support that they've given us.

CO: Thank you, Spidey.

JB: You're welcome. You're welcome. You stay safe now.

CO: All right. I hear you. Bye.

JB: Bye bye.

CH: Jason Baird is the owner of the Jason Baird Black Belt Academy and one of the Stockport Spider-Men. We reached him in Stockport, England, near Manchester.

[Music]

Harriet Glickman

CH: In April of 1968, not long after the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Junior, Harriet Glickman sat down to type a letter to a stranger. "I'm sure one doesn't make radical changes in so important an institution without a lot of shockwaves from syndicates, clients, et cetera," she wrote. "You have, however, a stature and reputation which can withstand a great deal." A few months later, a new character turned up in the comic strip Peanuts. His name was Franklin. And he was a direct result of that letter from Harry Glickman urging Charles Schulz to introduce a black character. Ms. Glickman died late last month. She was 93. In January of 2018, an exhibit honouring 50 years of Franklin opened at the Charles M. Schulz Museum in Santa Rosa, California. So we called Harry Glickman to talk about how she had helped to change the most popular comic strip of all at a time when the comics page was a huge cultural force. Here's part of Carol's conversation with Ms. Glickman from our archives.

CO: Harriet, how do you feel knowing that there's an exhibit honouring 50 years of Franklin in the Peanuts comics?

HG: I'm absolutely thrilled about it. The museum is remarkable. I don't know if you’ve ever seen it, but to have a special exhibit just for Franklin warms my heart as you can imagine.

CO: Of course it warms your heart because if it wasn't for you there wouldn't be Franklin. He was created — you inspired that creation. What did you do? Tell us about the first communication you had with Charles Schulz?

HG: OK, it was a few days after the death of Martin Luther King, and I was home, at that point, with three children. I had been teaching but I had taken some time out before going back to a new career. And you had this sad feeling of ‘Is there anything you can do?’ Most people have had that feeling and say ‘I wish there was something I could do.’ And it occurred to me that black kids never had a chance to see themselves in comic strips. And so I thought well ‘I'll take a chance.’ And I wrote to a couple of them, including Schulz, and Peanuts was sort of the prime, most important read comic strip in the country, I think maybe in the world.

CO: It had a 100 million readers at that point.

HG: That's interesting, I didn't know that number. Anyway, I wrote him and the letter is in the museum and it made my case for why I thought it would be a good thing to do. And much to my surprise I did get an answer very quickly. And he said that he supported the idea, he thought it was a good idea, but he was afraid that Negro parents — I'm going to use Negro, African American, Black throughout this because at the time it was the language that was used — that Negro parents would feel that he was being patronizing.

CO: So he said no, he said no he wasn't going to do it?

HG: He said so he didn't think that he would do it. And so I wrote him back and I asked if I could have his permission to share his letter with some Black friends of mine. As it turned out, there were just two people who responded because I didn't need to get too many. I went first to my friend Kenny Kelly, and he wrote a wonderful letter to Schulz supporting my idea. And right after that Schulz sent me a message and said “You'll be pleased to see the July, I forgot the date, the July something strip.” And he didn't mention that it put a child. He just said you'll be delighted to see it, as of course I was.

CO: July 31st 1968. That's when Franklin makes his first appearance in Peanuts a comic strip.

HG: That was it -- very happy about it and they decided that Franklin was now their brother. So we would have four children as a family ever since, I mean, they've been very supportive all through the years.

CH: That was the late Harriet Glickman speaking with Carol in 2018. Ms. Glickman wrote a letter to Peanuts creator Charles Schulz in 1968 urging him to introduce a black character, which Mr. Schultz did. Harry Glickman died on March 27th. She was 93.

[Music]

Part 3: Fired Amazon employee who staged walkout says company is trying to 'smear' him

Pizza Nova Class Action

Guest: Juan Jose Lira Cervantes & Simon Archer

CH: First, he stood up to Domino's Pizza. Now an Ontario delivery driver is taking on another pizza giant. In the fall of 2018, As It Happens spoke to Juan Jose Lira Cervantes. He was fighting to be recognized as an employee, not just an independent contractor, for delivering pizza. He asked provincial authorities to step in and they ordered Domino's to pay Mr. Cervantes more than $25,000 in unpaid wages. Fast forward to now Mr. Cervantes is taking on Pizza Nova for doing the same thing. But this time he's launched a $150 million lawsuit on his own behalf and for his fellow workers. We reached Juan Jose Lira Cervantes in Mississauga.

CO: Juan, first of all, can you tell us how much were you being paid as a Pizza Nova delivery driver?

JUAN JOSE LIRA CERVANTES: $9 an hour.

CO: And what about your car and gas, your maintenance? Was that paid for?

JUAN JOSE LIRA CERVANTES: No, that came out of my $9 an hour.

CO: So $9 an hour and you paid for your own gas and expenses?

JUAN JOSE LIRA CERVANTES: Yes.

CO: Okay. So now you've just launched this class action suit against Pizza Nova claiming -- they say that you're an independent contractor and you say that's not the case. What are you hoping to achieve with this lawsuit?

JUAN JOSE LIRA CERVANTES: I'm hoping that drivers are able to get the rights according to the employment standards act. Because right now I think that they're not.

CO: That's because classifying you as an independent contractor, you and the other drivers, it's not under provincial employment laws in Ontario, is that right?

JUAN JOSE LIRA CERVANTES: That's right.

CO: We spoke to you back in November 2018 when Ontario's Ministry of Labour ordered your previous employer, Domino's, to pay you $25000 in back pay after you successfully complained about how they treated you, that you were an employee, not an independent contractor. Did you get that money?

JUAN JOSE LIRA CERVANTES: No, unfortunately not. All I got was about $6000.

CO: What happened to that order then?

JUAN JOSE LIRA CERVANTES: Well, what happened was that the company ceased to exist -- I mean the numbered company. I can only go after the numbered company that is in the claim. And if that company has ceased to exist then the minister of finance can't really go after that company anymore.

CO: Right. Now, you also drove for Pizza Nova. And now you've launched this suit against them.

JUAN JOSE LIRA CERVANTES: That's right.

CO: I want to talk to your lawyer, Simon Archer, you there?

SIMON ARCHER: Yes, I'm here.

CO: Hi, Mr. Archer. PIzza Nova makes the same argument that the Domino's made saying that these are independent contractors. What's your evidence that they are, in fact, and should be treated as employees of the company?

SA: Well, these employees perform all the functions of an employee. They're just wrongly misclassified as an independent contractor. Their sole source of work is the employer. They're under the control of the employer. They're told what to wear, where to deliver. They receive orders and they can be terminated by the employer. There's a four factor test that's used when the employment standards officer did the initial analysis -- finding in the Domino's case, that's the test they applied. And they found that Juan was an employee, in fact. And should have been protected by minimum standards legislation.

CO: Juan I know you're not delivering pizzas anymore and that your family is relying now on the income your wife had at working at Value Village. How are you surviving right now?

JUAN JOSE LIRA CERVANTES: Well, unfortunately, now my wife has just been laid off also because of the outbreak of the virus, so we are relying on her employment insurance benefits and also on the benefits that my children get.

CO: How many children do you have?

JUAN JOSE LIRA CERVANTES: The ones living with me -- there are four, but I have two older ones. So right now we are basically using all the money for groceries and toiletries.

CO: And so given what you went through with Domino's, how much faith do you have that you can actually successfully fight Pizza Nova over in court?

JUAN JOSE LIRA CERVANTES: Well, I feel very positive about the outcome, but of course, we know each case follows its own course. So I'm hopeful that we will have a positive outcome, that it will be able to help all of the thousands of drivers that are doing this for a living.

CO: Mr. Archer, I'll just put that same question to you. What possibilities do you think? Why do you think that you might be successful in this suit?

SA: Well, we think that Juan and all of the misclassified independent contractors working for Pizza Nova are actually employees and are actually protected by the Minimum Standards and Employment Standards Act for the reason we just stated. And I even think that the current COVID-19 crises and so forth just emphasize the importance of those protections for these workers that wouldn't otherwise have them under emergencies like this one.

CO: Juan a final question for you. You are in a difficult situation. Your wife's not working. You're not working right now. And yet you're taking all this on, on behalf of other pizza delivery people. How difficult is it for you to face up -- to take on big corporations?

JUAN JOSE LIRA CERVANTES: I can tell you that it has been very stressful. It has put my family under stress, especially my wife, who is more of a warrior than me. But I find it to be a duty to my fellow drivers who do this and fight for the rights of all of us.

CO: Juan, we will keep in touch and see how this case develops. And thank you for speaking with us.

JUAN JOSE LIRA CERVANTES: Thank you Carol. Thanks for your time.

CO: Thanks Mr. Archer.

SA: Thank you. Bye bye.

CH: Juan Jose Lira Cervantes is a pizza delivery driver involved in proposed class action against Pizza Nova. Simon Archer is his lawyer. We reached Mr. Cervantes in Mississauga. And Mr. Archer in Toronto.

[Music]

Amazon Guy Fired

Guest: Chris Smalls

CH: For five years, Chris Smalls worked for Amazon. And last week he was fired. The company says it's because he violated social distancing rules. But Mr. Smalls thinks there's more to it because his dismissal came after he helped organize a walkout at the Staten Island warehouse where he used to work. He was protesting the facility's response to the coronavirus pandemic. New York's attorney general has called Mr. Small's termination disgraceful and has called for an investigation. We reached Chris Smalls in Newark.

CO: Mr. Smalls, I understand you participated in another walkout today. How did that go?

CHRIS SMALLS: It was successful. I mean, we had other organizers out there participating that are not even employees with Amazon. So it's amazing to see the support that is coming from the outside and the public.

CO: Let's just go back to last week before you were fired by Amazon. What was going on at the Staten Island warehouse where you work?

CS: A lot of confusion. And there's a lot of sickness going on. That's what's going on. People around me were getting sick -- like a domino effect -- calling out. Some people were not showing up to work. You know, it was scary. It was a scary situation to see your employees that you work with and your colleagues start to fall ill.

CO: And were they sick with COVID-19?

CS: Well, that's the thing. We were undiagnosed. You know, the testing is so hard to get in New York and then a lot of the results don't come until days later. And then on top of that, the building wasn't being transparent on who was being diagnosed or not. So I really don't know.

CO: Were any of your coworkers confirmed as having the virus?

CS: Yes, the one I actually sent home Tuesday, March 24. She tested positive. And along with her best friend as well.

CO: Why did you decide to organize a walkout? Was it because of the illnesses or the general conditions?

CS: It was a little bit of both. The conditions was number one. The virus was easily spreading. Once it is in the building that was just, you know, a matter of time. I was trying to be proactive instead of reactive. Yeah, my people...I was trying to save lives. You know, I don't want people bringing this virus home to their families. This virus spreads to two people. We have five thousand employees that come in and out that building every week. So can you imagine how many people could be affected possibly? I was trying to prevent that. You know, that was my mindset.

CO: Now, Amazon says that you were fired not for organizing a protest and a walkout. You were fired for violating the company's order for you to take a 14 day quarantine and said you were warned multiple times. Is that not the case?

CS: Absolutely not. Those policies they're stating -- it didn't even exist. And I already proved that. I debunked that yesterday. If you check my Twitter feed -- they just now started implementing the policy as of April. So when they fired me, nobody knew anything about no disciplinary action. I never was warned multiple times. Everything they are saying is fabricated. And it's just for the press. But I already debunked that. And I'm already pursuing legal action that will further debunk that. So, you know, I'm going to let them keep digging their own grave.

CO: And they also say that they were taking extreme -- this is a quote -- "extreme measures to keep people safe and our buildings." And they were doing everything they could to protect you. How do you respond to that?

CS: Well, it's all false. You know, if it was true, then they would not have multiple cases popping up in multiple buildings. The safety guidelines and safety procedures are not being enforced. You've got to understand, these are operation managers. These are not medical experts. They trying to get managers now to perform jobs of nurses and EMT. qIt doesn't really fit the needs. And, you know, they're trying to make efforts and they're telling the press and public that they're doing this and that -- everything they've done so far is reactive. So you got to think if it's already spreading to the people, all they are doing right now is Band-Aid work. Band-Aid work. It's not going to be longevity.

CO: Well, you must be getting under their skin because I'm sure you saw Vice News got hold of some notes that were leaked from a meeting where Amazon leadership was discussing their public relations strategy around you. And they said that the best way to extinguish this uprising that was started was to go after you -- because you were not very smart or articulate and that you could probably be exposed. What did you think of that when you heard that?

CS: Well, it's very disgusting. You know, like I said, I'm not going to stoop to their level and go back and forth. That's what they want. They have to address the people. You know, they want to put it on Amazon versus Chris Smalls. It's not going to happen. It's going to be Amazon versus the people. It never was about me. I was just trying to raise concern for the people that was in my building. But obviously people all over the world are relating to the same situation. And it started a revolution -- they're afraid to answer to the public and their employees. So they want to try to just smear me. It's not going to work.

CO: You wrote an open letter to the public and you wrote at the end to Amazon customers to stop clicking the buy now button. And you also had a message from Mr. Bezos himself, the man who owns Amazon. Just very quickly, what message did you want to send him?

CS: I want to send him a message saying, take care of your employees. You know, you got people sleeping in their cars right now because they're scared -- they can't get a test and they don't want to bring a virus into their household. You know, I'm already unemployed. They terminated me. I don't want the job back. I don't want to work for him. I don't want to work with Jeff Bezos ever again. I don't want to work for a man that sits in a room with other people that, you know, downgrade minorities -- whether it was his emotions or not, it still should have had never been said by a person in that position, in that power, and with that type of money. Take care of your employees. Stop dancing around the situation at hand and fix it. You know, fix what you started. You started this company. Take care of your employees.

CO: Mr. Smalls thank you.

CS: No problem. Anytime.

CO: Bye bye.

CS: Take care.

CH: That was fired Amazon employee Chris Smalls in Newark. In a statement to As It Happens, Amazon outlined some of the measures it's taking to protect employees, including increased cleaning, maintaining distance at fulfillment centres and adding distance between drivers and customers when making deliveries. You can find more on this story on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Knife Artist

Guest: Jan Erichsen

CH: Jan Erichsen is known for his work with knives. The performance artist became famous on the Internet by posting videos almost every day that show him popping balloons using various contraptions rigged with sharp blades. But like a lot of us, he's changed how he does things during the pandemic. To be a little safer Mr. Erichsen started making art with different kinds of household objects and put the knives away except for one sculpture he owns, made entirely of knives. We reached Jan Erichsen in Oslo, Norway, where he's recuperating from a recent injury involving said sculpture.

CO: Jan, first of all, are you recovering from your wounds?

JAN ERICHSEN: Yeah. Healing nicely, I think. I got my surgery done a couple of days ago and it's not hurting too bad. So, yeah.

CO: What were you doing when you fell into a bunch of knives?

JE: Yeah. I was making a video for my Instagram. I was planning to walk over a small bridge I had made out of a ladder and the stove. So it's a series I call "furniture aerobics" where I try to use the furniture around us in kind of unconventional ways.

CO: Right. That sounds dangerous enough. So what is it that you fell into?

JE: Yeah, that's slightly worse. I had made a knife sculpture where I had taken one of my old photos and taken around 100 knives and ran through it. So it was hundred knives standing on my windowsill, pointing in my direction when I was balancing on my homemade bridge. So, yeah, that wasn't too smart.

CO: And how did you land into the knives?

JE: I was lounging forward, so I was falling with my hands and head towards the knife sculpture. So luckily my hands were in front of my head mostly. I just got two small cuts on my face, but my hands took a lot of the weight of that.

CO: Everybody listening to this is just cringing at the thought of this.

JE: Yeah, it was terrible. I was quite panicky after that. It was not good.

CO: You obviously had to go to the hospital with that one.

JE: Yeah. I had to get the ambulance. I had like five minutes where I was running around my studio trying to kind of stop the bleeding and thinking. Because my studio is quite close to the ER so I thought, yeah, if I just kind of get it bandaged up, I can go down myself. But I mean, it was impossible. I was bleeding from both hands. So I was just there after a few minutes. Okay. I need some help. And then I called my girlfriend and an ambulance came and picked me up. That was a good thing because apparently I fainted when I came to the hospital. I don't remember, but I probably did. And that would probably have happened when I was walking outside.

CO: I'm sure you were grateful for the hospital being able to take care of you. Did you feel badly in the hospital in the middle of a pandemic?

JE: I felt so bad about the whole thing. I mean, I hadn't worked with knives in my videos. I usually do. And I haven't done that for a month because of the whole corona situation. I was really trying not to have an accident. I mean, I never tried to fix it, of course, but I really tried to not use knives. And then, of course, I fell into it.

CO: I was looking online at some of your past work with knives. I couldn't stop watching. It's just the numbers of times you come so close to stabbing yourself. You wear knives and try to puncture balloons. So don't you think that perhaps that this was an accident that was going to happen?

JE: I mean, I didn't feel like it before because I felt I had control over the situation. And I mean, it looks really dangerous. But I mean, every time I actually use knives, I try things out several times before I record on the camera. And I really try to do things safely. And it looks really dangerous on tape. But it's not that dangerous. But I mean, this accident fits everything in a different light, obviously. Yeah, I think my nightmare is kind of over.

CO: So now, of course, as you mentioned, you film these things and you were filming this last week. Did you catch yourself on camera actually falling into the knives?

JE: Yeah. I mean, I probably haven't had the stomach to actually watch the footage for obvious reasons. But the footage is in my camera, in my studio and I haven't gone to my studio yet. But it's nice we're out of the shot. So when I got the exact impact, I'm probably running around bleeding and scream. So that footage. So, yeah, I don't know if I can ever watch it.

CO: Did others watch it? Was it a live stream?

JE: Fortunately, I hadn't come to that. I was going to have an Instagram livestream with the bridge I made. So I was trying it out and then I was filming it to see how it looks on tape. Then the next step was how I was going to turn on the Instagram live function and have a livestream of it. But luckily I didn't get that far. So that would have been terrible.

CO: I'm glad you spared us that, but I'm sorry that you didn't spare yourself. I hope you heal. Hope you recover.

JE: Yeah. Thanks.

CO: Take care of yourself.

JE: Yeah. Thank you.

CH: Jan Erichsen is a performance artist in Norway who recently took a tumble into a sculpture of knives while prepping for a furniture aerobics segment. We reached him in Oslo. And for more on the story, visit our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Flour Shortage

CH: Shirley Douglas was a famous actor. She played the likes of Madeleine Albright and Nellie McClung. She was a fixture on the show Wind at My Back, and she performed alongside her son, Kiefer Sutherland at the National Arts Centre in the 90s. But Ms. Douglas, did a whole lot of other things too. As Mr. Sutherland reminded us when he announced his mother's death yesterday. She was an extraordinary woman who led an extraordinary life. A life that included participating in the civil rights movement and the campaign against the Vietnam War. A life befitting the daughter of the founder of Canadian Medicare, Tommy Douglas. Back in 2010, Shirley Douglas was a guest on our show. She spoke with Carol about what it was like to know that her father had been under surveillance by the RCMP. At the time, the federal government was arguing that details from the police dossier on Tommy Douglas should remain a state secret. And Shirley Douglas wasn't having it.

SHIRLEY DOUGLAS: The information in these files is part of our history. I'm not saying that people wouldn't be frightened of him for some reason, therefore thought they wanted to look into the situation. But surely, goodness. We want to know why. What they found out. What was their reasoning. Would they agree with that today. And how he evolved as a person and how the country evolved as a country. Because for me, everywhere I've ever lived -- the Department of Security, the Department of Intelligence, whatever you call it, is the most frightening department in a country.

CO: And what we're seeing right now around the world is in recent years the cracking open of so many of those security files that have been sealed, collected on people and sealed. So in that spirit, in that atmosphere, why do you think it is that the federal government is resisting so strenuously, allowing the file on your father to be released?

SHIRLEY DOUGLAS: I don't know. This does bewilder me because the openness that is starting around the world -- I remember the films of the footage of all of the Soviet Union opening up, people all rushing in to see who had been the spy down the street. You see the Nixon tapes. You see an attempt at times of openness. And the Freedom of Information acts have been an attempt. But I don't know what the rigidity of Canada is in this department and whether it's just that certain people in CSIS are wedded to the idea that we are entitled to keep a secret and therefore we will. I have no idea.

CO: We'll see what happens with the federal court -- if we get access to these papers, it will be very very interesting to have a crack at them.

SHIRLEY DOUGLAS: I think so. I think it will be. And people cannot believe that their country has a Secret Service and a security service. And that's why it's so easy to tie countries up. People don't expect that somewhere there are spies following Tommy Douglas around or following people who are trying to get the movement started. And the truth is that they are.

CH: Shirley Douglas was an actor, and activist, an officer of the Order of Canada, and the daughter of Tommy Douglas. Her son, Kiefer Sutherland, announced her death yesterday from causes unrelated to COVID-19. Ms. Douglass was 86 years old.

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April 06, 2020 Episode Transcript

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