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The Current Transcript for April 7, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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VOICE: I don't know if I will have surgery. I don't know if or when I will have surgery. I don't know if the cancer will spread. I don't know if it will metastasize. I don't know if I will survive.

MATT GALLOWAY: As hospitals prepare for a surge of coronavirus cases, space is being made by postponing other surgeries. Coming up, hear how those facing cancer and other illnesses are processing the fact that their critically important procedures are now being put on hold. Also this morning, after weeks of resistance to the idea, Canada's chief public health officer is now suggesting that people wear non-surgical masks when shopping for groceries and riding transit. Health reporter Andre Picard is here to sort through the mask debate. Plus, you'll get a lesson in bread making from a baker. And we'll find out why you can't seem to find any yeast on store shelves. Later.

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VOICE: And then back here around the ear, you can take it and just slowly go up, following the natural growth of the hair.

MG: Are you cutting your own hair yet? Are you thinking about cutting your own hair? Some advice on home haircuts and whether you should get the clippers out or let it grow. We'll begin though with a positive test for COVID-19 in an unexpected place: the tiger enclosure. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. This is an extended edition of The Current.

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With a COVID-19 infection confirmed in tigers, researchers hope to learn more about its spread among animals

Guests: Natasha Daly, Thomas Gillespie, John Epstein

MG: You know that New York City has been hit hard by the coronavirus outbreak, and now the Bronx Zoo is reporting an unexpected case. Nadia, a 4 year old tiger has tested positive for COVID-19. There have been a handful of reported cases in pets around the world, but this is the first known case of a non-domesticated animal contracting the coronavirus from a human. Natasha Daly is a staff reporter and editor at National Geographic. Natasha, good morning.

NATASHA DALY: Good morning Matt. Thanks for having me.

MG: Thanks for joining us. What happened to Nadia the tiger that led the zoo to test her for coronavirus?

NATASHA DALY: Yes. So, Nadia, she's a four year old tiger at the Bronx Zoo in New York City. She and six other big cats, including three tigers and three lions, were all clearly not well. So they were exhibiting symptoms. They were coughing and they had were showing a kind of a loss of appetite. So the the veterinarians on staff decided to start start testing Nadia for, you know, various took some bloodwork, did some routine tests. Everything came back negative. So at that point, they decided to take samples to test for the possibility that she may have the novel coronavirus. Of course, the Bronx Zoo is in New York City now, which is a hot spot right now.

MG: Why was she the one that was tested? Because you mentioned that there were six big cats that were feeling ill.

NATASHA DALY: Yes, actually seven, including her. So in order to be tested, of course, you know, these are tigers and lions, you have to sedate them. And of course, any general anaesthesia is a bit of a risk to to a to an animal. So they decided to just test one of them. So they selected Nadia and sedated her, took the samples, and then from that point, sent the samples to two veterinary labs in the U.S. for testing.

MG: How do you test a tiger for the coronavirus?

NATASHA DALY: Yes. So they they brought her into a sort of sub-enclosure, sedated her, and she was under general anaesthesia and then took swabs. Basically so then that's essentially how they did it. And then she she woke up, she recovered and she is doing well, I should add. Nadia and all six other big cats at the zoo that were showing symptoms are doing well now.

MG: What do they know about how these big cats contracted the coronavirus?

NATASHA DALY: Yes. So the best guess from public health officials is that they likely and Nadia, especially, likely contracted the novel coronavirus from an asymptomatic zoo workers. So the zoo closed to the public on March 16th, and the big test did not service riveting symptoms till around March 27. So the best guess is that someone that was working in the zoo was carrying around the virus, not knowing that they were carrying the virus and that's how it got transferred.

MG: Are the zookeepers now being tested?

NATASHA DALY: No, they're not. So as you know, I'm sure you know, there are every jurisdiction in the US, including New York City, especially is facing shortages with testing, and there are strict protocols as determined by public health officials in terms of who can get tested. So the guidance at this point is not to test zoo officials and food workers who are actually working at the Bronx Zoo unless they were to be showing serious symptoms of underlying conditions, etc.. So that's not the plan at this stage.

MG: Do we know, you mentioned the symptoms that Nadia was experiencing. Do we know whether if this were to progress, that it could be as dangerous to her health and the tiger's health as it is to human health?

NATASHA DALY: Yeah, that's a great question. The answer is that we don't know because this is the first case of its kind in the world. Nadia is the first wild animal to test positive for the novel coronavirus. So we just don't have the answers in terms of what would happen if it were to progress, if she were to be sicker than she is right now, if that would look like, as it does, a very serious human cases. So there is just a lot of unknowns at this point.

MG: Do we know whether other animals at the Bronx Zoo have shown, if they haven't been at least tested, have shown symptoms for the coronavirus?

NATASHA DALY: None of the other animals, aside from the seven big cats, are showing symptoms at all. Of course, the staff is closely monitoring all animals should they start to appear to be sick or showing symptoms of it. So far, that is not the case.

MG: What is your understanding of what researchers are hoping to learn from this case? I mean, obviously they want Nadia and the big cats to be better, but this is an opportunity to learn more about how this virus spreads. Where are they hoping to learn?

NATASHA DALY: Yeah. I mean, this is obviously a huge sort of, you know, new factor in this entire global pandemic. The fact that a big cat has contracted the virus and is testing positive so that information based on her words that her symptoms are for diagnostic testing will be widely shared with the public health community. The public health community has already been looking for the intermediate possible animal carrier of the virus. So we know that it likely started at bats, but we don't actually know how it was transmitted to humans and what animal did that. So the fact now that we know that big cats are able to contracted the virus will obviously be really important information going forward in studying how this can transmit and spread.

MG: These are big cats. What about little cats like the house cats that people have? People will hear this and they'll wonder whether their little kitty at home perhaps could contract the coronavirus.

NATASHA DALY: Yes. Very good question. So right now, a domestic cat in Belgium and a couple of cats in Hong Kong are reported to have tested positive. So we know that domestic cats can contract the disease, however, it is not thought to be a high risk for your own pet cat. So the guidance from the American Veterinary Medical Association is that if you are showing symptoms of COVID-19 or you're sick to keep your distance from your pets, just as you would keep your distance from people. So make sure to isolate yourself if you are not showing symptoms and you're at your cat owner. You shouldn't change anything about what you're doing. You can interact with your cat as normal. There's no reason to fear that your cat is particularly susceptible at this point.

MG: And Nadia and the other big cats are on the mend?

NATASHA DALY: They are, and it's important to note that although there is evidence that humans can now transmit, we know humans can transmit the virus to tigers and other domestic cats, there is no evidence in the field that these animals can transmit the virus to us. So that's very important to know.

MG: Natasha, thank you.

NATASHA DALY: Thanks for having me.

MG: Natasha Daly is a staff writer at National Geographic. We reached her in Washington, D.C. Seeing this virus hop the species barrier from human to animal is a big concern for conservationists, particularly those trying to protect the great ape. They are our closest relatives in the animal kingdom, and some people worry that COVID-19 could push them closer to extinction. Thomas Gillespie is a disease ecologist and professor at Emory University. Thomas, good morning to you.

THOMAS GILLESPIE: Good morning. Thanks for having me.

MG: Thanks for joining us. What evidence is there that apes could be infected with the coronavirus?

THOMAS GILLESPIE: So we have a history of apes being very susceptible to human respiratory disease. Even viruses that tend to cause the common cold in humans have ended up causing mortality events in wild apes. We've seen this in multiple species of apes in multiple countries. And so this history is one part of the equation. The other is that we know from at least some of the apes where we have the reference genomes that they share the same receptor for the specific coronavirus that's currently impacting the human population and so they should be able to be infected in the same way.

MG: So as we are vulnerable, they are vulnerable?

THOMAS GILLESPIE: Exactly. We even have one example of a different coronavirus, a much milder form of coronavirus, that often circulates in humans and causes common colds in humans getting into wild chimpanzees about three years ago. And in that case, we did see an outbreak of of disease. And fortunately, in that case, we didn't have mortality.

MG: We're just talking about the tigers. Do we know whether any apes have tested positive or may have possible symptoms of the coronavirus?

THOMAS GILLESPIE: So we don't have any evidence of that thus far.

MG: If that were to happen, how would the apes get the virus?

THOMAS GILLESPIE: So the the way that apes are going to be susceptible is similar to humans. It's based on close contact or contact with substances, substrates that have been contaminated.

MG: So with the tiger, we heard from Natasha that the suspicion is that it was maybe animal keeper, somebody who was working in the enclosure, who is asymptomatic and pass that along to the tigers. That would be the similar situation for the great apes?

THOMAS GILLESPIE: Exactly. In this case, the majority of wild apes are fearful of humans and will move away when people are near. But the ones that are habituated, the ones that we have gotten used to, our presence for tourism, for research, they're the ones we're most concerned about. They're the ones who won't maintain a distance naturally. And even if we're more than a metre away, you know, thinking of the human suggested distances for for social distancing, that's not going to be enough in the case of the apes because they are going to be passing through areas that we contaminate. So we have to create a larger birth.

MG: And then they would take that back to their own populations and it could spread there?

THOMAS GILLESPIE: Exactly.

MG: How do you go about monitoring those wild ape populations for a virus like COVID-19?

THOMAS GILLESPIE: So there are there are two components to that. The first is that because we don't have a cure for this, because the situation is the same as it is for people where the interventions that we do have from a clinical perspective are very limited, the goal is to reduce the potential for exposure. So we want to keep people as far away as possible. So suspending research, suspending tourism, all of this is the key and then ensuring that any places where there is a human footprint where we would have contamination within the home range of those wild apes would be cleaned up and decontaminated as far as possible. That's that's part one. To this part two is that once we kind of have a better sense of how much this is potentially going to impact them, our partner lab in Berlin at the Robert Cooke Institute is working on a faecal based PCR.

MG: What is that?

THOMAS GILLESPIE: The idea is that you're hearing about that the PCR based test for this coronavirus for humans and it requires, you know, a nasal swab, adifficult process that also includes the risk of exposure to whoever is giving the test with the wild apes. We have the same issues that Nadia is bringing up with the tigers, that anaesthesia is risky. These are endangered species. We don't want to risk losing them through anaesthesia. So we almost always use non-invasive assays. We we find a way to be able to get that information without endangering them. So in this case, we're taking the faecal material. Some of the various cells that are associated with the respiratory respiratory tract are being swallowed and going through the digestive tract and coming out with the faeces. And we're able to get enough of a signature from that to be able to see whether or not we have a positive for some of these things. This has been done successfully with with other respiratory virus.

MG: I just have a couple of quick questions in the remaining seconds that we have. One is if an ape were to be infected, what do you do to treat them?

THOMAS GILLESPIE: So, again, we don't have a treatment. In the case of other respiratory pathogens, there's often a secondary infection, a bacterial infection, which ends up causing a lot of the serious pathology. And so you'd give an antibiotic. But in this case, because of the way that this virus acts, it's the the virus itself that's causing the pathology. It's causing a scarification of the lungs, which is leading to to death and so because of that, we've really got to stay away from these animals. It's more of a risk for us to be there than it is to treat them.

MG: What I was gonna say, just very briefly, you have to stay away from them, in part because all ape species are endangered. Right?

THOMAS GILLESPIE: Exactly.

MG: And that this would lead to what sort of effect on their population?

THOMAS GILLESPIE: Well, again, we're most concerned about the habituated animals. They're the ones that are the ambassadors of their species. They're the ones that are at the greatest risk of getting exposed. We could see high mortality in those groups and lose those ambassadors. Fortunately, there's less of a risk of this spreading through their populations like fire, because they're not living at the densities that humans are living at. This is a density dependent disease and so that's one thing they have going for them.

MG: This is fascinating and terrifying as well. Thomas, we'll leave it there. Thank you.

THOMAS GILLESPIE: Thank you.

MG: Thomas Gillespie, disease ecologist and professor at Emory University. One of the most curious things about this coronaviruses is you been hearing how it jumps around, causes illness in some species, doesn't have much of an effect on others. My next guest is a wildlife veterinarian, epidemiologist with Eco Health Alliance in New York. He's studied the relationship between animals and other respiratory viruses in SARS and MERS. Dr. John Epstein, good morning to you.

JOHN EPSTEIN: Hi. Good morning, Matt.

MG: What is it like for you to hear our first guests talking about their concern over further spread in animals? And would you be surprised to hear that a tiger in captivity could get COVID-19?

JOHN EPSTEIN: No, I'm not surprised and it's interesting to see the conversation opening up as we start to have evidence both from the laboratory side in terms of studying this virus in cats and other animal models and also a natural infection in a captive tiger, it opens up the conversation about other species and in particular, wildlife that may be susceptible to this virus.

MG: You and I spoke about bats, what in the beginning of January? And the idea that bats could be a reservoir for viruses like COVID-19. Just briefly remind us what that means. What does it mean for an animal to be a reservoir?

JOHN EPSTEIN: Sure. Every disease is caused by a pathogen, whether it's a virus or a bacteria and a natural reservoir. When it's an animal is a type of animal that the virus normally lives in and circulates in. So the virus survives in populations of one or several types of animals, naturally. So in this case, bats are believed to be the natural reservoir for SARS-COV-2, which is the virus causing COVID-19, which means that the virus normally lives in bats. And given the opportunity, when bats make contact with an animal or person that's susceptible, the virus may jump into a new host. A host is any animal or person that can be infected by the virus, but doesn't necessarily have the ability to transmit it so successfully that it sustains itself in that new species.

MG: Are certain animals more likely to be reservoirs than others or could it be any animal?

JOHN EPSTEIN: Well, it really depends on what you're talking about, the virus or the bacteria. Every virus is unique in terms of the animals or people that it can infect. Some viruses are very specific. We call them host restricted, which means they only infect one type of animal and can't jump in. Other viruses like coronaviruses, and this one particular, are a bit more promiscuous and have the ability to infect multiple different species. We're still learning what that that spread of species might be, but bats have long been known to carry these types of corona viruses has been a lot of research on that. And we know from stars and from Meurs Middle East Respiratory Syndrome that corona viruses are able to jump into other hosts including people.

MG: Do we have any better sense as to how this virus made that leap? We were again talking about bats. There was conversations around as well, around pangolins and maybe other animals as well. Do we have a sense as to how it made that leap?

JOHN EPSTEIN: Well your first guest is correct. The best information we have right now is that this virus originates in bats. Same types of bats, horseshoe bats that carry SARS coronavirus, but we don't know exactly how it made its way into people. We don't have specific evidence that tells us that there were one or more intermediary hosts or other animals involved. But we do know that it is possible that it went directly from bats into people by virtue of the fact that this virus uses receptors to enter cells that are found both in bats and in people. So it's possible it could have gone directly or it went through other animals and we just don't know yet exactly how that happened.

MG: I was reading that there are scientists who are concerned that this coronavirus could find a new reservoir. How would that happen?

JOHN EPSTEIN: So it's an interesting question. You know, we always and rightfully so, focus on us. We're very self-centred when it comes to health and so right now, the focus is on how it's spreading among people. And there's a lot of conversation about the idea that throughout history there have been animal viruses that have established themselves as human viruses. A great example being HIV, which started in chimpanzees, but now is solidly a human virus circulating around the world. And so when viruses make the jump, if they can be transmitted effectively from person to person or animal to animal, they can continue to survive and exist within that species. So the question now is are there wildlife populations, are there certain animals that might be able to receive this virus from people? Because we have so many people getting infected. And just like the tiger in the zoo got infected through contact with a human, could there be other animals? And it's a big unknown. There are questions right now here in the United States about North American bats and whether they would be susceptible to this virus, perhaps from a bat researcher handling bats. And again, it's an unknown question. We don't know the answer to that. But it's good to start having these conversations and doing research to answer the question.

MG: Good because just in the last few seconds that we have, if it transfers to another reservoir, that means that the fight has to continue in a different form

JOHN EPSTEIN: Well, it is possible that the virus could find a new host and establish yourself in a new animal host. We don't know what the possibility or likelihood is. So we have to better understand whether this virus can infect certain other animals, whether it can be transmitted effectively and whether that indeed could pose a risk for that animal harbouring the virus and coming back to people. But at this point, we just don't know the answer to any of those questions.

MG: Really interesting to talk to you again, John. Thank you.

JOHN EPSTEIN: Thank you very much.

MG: Dr. John Epstein is a wildlife veterinarian and an epidemiologist with the EcoHealth Alliance in New York. The CBC News is next. And then coming up in about six minutes, he is an expert in humanitarian emergencies. The retired Lieutenant-General Romeo Dallaire will join me to talk about hard earned and wisdom on how to get through a crisis. He has seen the best and the worst of humanity. We'll speak with Romeo Dallaire. Coming up. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

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Health-care workers need support to overcome war on COVID-19: Romeo Dallaire

Guests: Romeo Dallaire, Ron Muise

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come. Grab any instrument you've got. Could be a guitar, maybe a harmonica, maybe just a spoon and a pan. Anything works at an east coast kitchen party. We'll take you to one of those coming up. But first, he has seen the worst and the best of humanity. General Romeo Dallaire shares advice for these hard times.

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MG: This pandemic is being compared to many historic traumas, including war. And on this anniversary, 26 years since the genocide in Rwanda began, the retired Lieutenant-General Romeo Dallaire joins us. He served as force commander of the United Nations Assistance Mission for Rwanda during that time. And he sees parallels with the battle going on today and the traumas that will be inflicted. Romeo Dallaire is a vocal spokesperson about post-traumatic stress disorder. The founder of the Romeo Dallaire Child Soldiers Initiative at Dalhousie University. He is also a former Canadian senator. General Dallaire. Good morning.

ROMEO DALLAIRE: Good morning to you.

MG: What is it like for you to watch this crisis unfold?

ROMEO DALLAIRE: Oh, the first thing is that is it brings back incidents and an atmosphere that one lives that will always stay with you and that you are vulnerable to, of course, but at the same time, it gives you a sense of knowing a bit more what's happening. And so I see to what we're living through here from a light of experience and in so doing, I think it gives us depth and maturity and a sense of near serenity. And this experience that we're going through, nobody's gonna forget it. And because nobody's gonna forget it, it has to be looked at as a defining moment within the history of our country as well as the world, of course.

MG: You said it gives you depth perspective, but also near serenity. What do you mean by that?

ROMEO DALLAIRE: It's because I feel less fear. I feel less anxiety, less concerned at the threat that the enemy at our gates, I think, than probably many people are going through this experience for the first time. We are in a in combat where in campaign we're battling in this campaign. This campaign is part of a grander global war against a threat that is killing people and that is affecting people significantly and affecting our economy is affecting the way of life, how we're going to act and subsequently or adjust subsequently. And so taking it from any other perspective, trying to make it simply as nice, just simply as a crisis on something, all we're going to do, we're working our way through it and making people feel defensive. You know, try it is absolutely the wrong perspective. We got to feel authentic. We can feel fear because we're not sure what's coming down. We can feel anxiety at all. How is this thing going to last? But really, what we should be looking at it is what are very far off heads of deliberate fashion, not one of trying to absorb the onslaught of what this thing is doing.

MG: Today marks the 26th anniversary of the start of the Rwandan genocide. And I'm wondering, given what you saw and what you experienced and as you say, how you live with that every day, what are the parallels that you see between this pandemic in what you went through?

ROMEO DALLAIRE: The overriding atmosphere that you're left with is the one of seeking information and seeking to allay fear and seeking to, in fact, be sure that you've got everything you can to defend yourself, to protect yourself, to protect those close to you. And that is not the psychological injury as such, it's not a mental state. It is a pure human reaction survival context. And so I feel that what we should be getting more from the leadership is this very combative attitude and is rallying that, in fact, it came rather smoothly from the queen. And she's sort of was merely quoting Churchill in World War Two. And so I think that gives you solidarity and that makes communication far, far more transparent on what's happening. So what comes back to me is that we had so little communication that we were isolated. There were no cavalry over the hill. There was no reinforcements, that terrible situation. I'm seeing sometimes in some of the reportage, in some of the reflections of some of the leadership that they've got to get out of that and they've got to show that they're getting there at the top of the game.

MG: They're speaking to all of us, but if this is a war setting, in many ways, those on the front lines, the people who would be in a war, the soldiers are doctors, are nurses, are health care workers, are cleaners or people who have to be at work despite the fact that the messaging is to stay home if you can. You spoke directly to health care workers across this country in a message and you said to them to trust your instincts. Why did you say that to them?

ROMEO DALLAIRE: Cause that is when in battle they trained us in order to have these professional, instinctive reactions that come from what you see, from what you sense, and it's your gut feel that is so much more developed and sophisticated to circumstances that are so unusual. That is an overriding factor in the decisions you take because what they're facing is shortages, which is normal. And I said it right from the start. There was a minister that was quite peeved that me of saying it. You will. So they're going to lack resources. They're going to find that they're going to be overwhelmed at times to appease going to set in the ability to sustain the decisions, the ethical and more decisions they're taking on different patients and where the resources should be going and how, in fact, to attenuate crisis within their own team. And so there is this need for them to communicate amongst themselves. But the coalesce as as platoons in the forefront, as as companies, as as constructs of esprit de corps, that they're in it as a as a group, not one of us is going to solve this alone. And unless they communicate amongst each others constantly and keep each other going constantly. Some of them will interior eyes. This is near guilt of not being able to solve it all. And that will start to create the psychological impact on them. So it's changing nature.

MG: Well, you also talked about that guilt and the idea that that they should avoid punishing themselves in some ways for failures that they might perceive that they're part of. How do you avoid doing that in a situation where, to your point, you will have shortages, you can't help everybody and if you're there on the frontlines, you might feel as though you wish you had done more.

ROMEO DALLAIRE: Well that is the nature of the beast of when you are talking about human beings. We're not talking about losing a building or a bridge or a truck or something. We're talking about human beings. And so the the instinctive reactions of human beings to others is to is to sense the loss, the sense, the pain to exchange with them. And so they're going to be they're going to see the eyes of these people when they tell them things. They're going to see the eyes of their own staff when they're going to give the mortars that they're got to do this instead of that, knowing that there's going to be an impact on some of the patients, that the policemen that are doing the controls, they're going to they're going to second guess often whether they took the right decisions on this so that no longer if the military, the soldiers were going to be maybe deployed finding themselves in scenarios. Also, these frontline people are taking decisions of life and potentially death of human beings. You can't raise that purely by saying, well, it's a shame. You can't erase it either by simply saying, you know, I did the best I can. There will be a residual impact of that and that's why peer support structures have got to build resiliency within themselves so that they can, in fact, absorb these human decisions on human life and the impact thereof. And that cannot be underestimated in the professions that they're in.

MG: How encouraged are you by what we see around the world? I heard it last night out my window. People, you know, after seven o'clock banging pots and pans in support of those on the frontlines.

ROMEO DALLAIRE: My mother was a Dutch war bride, and she told me of stories of how they lived through the occupation in Holland during World War 2 and how they could not express, how they could not communicate, how in fact it turned them into near robotic individuals because they were so guarded on everything they could do and fear was always omnipresent. The ability to be able to express, to communicate, to let it out in a fashion that doesn't put anybody at risk, but on the contrary ensures that people don't feel they are alone in this battle and that you can assuage their fears by saying, no, we're going to get through this. And and here's the song and here's a there's an action. You know, those are precious and they demonstrate a resiliency in the population. We're not a country that's been at war on our territory since over 250 years ago. And in so doing, we don't have the experience of handling this type of extraordinary experience of all our population. My African colleagues that work with me on child soldiers looked at us at the start and they were saying, boy, you seen nothing. And yet look at them overreacting, look at all the paper, the toilet paper and all these kinds of stuff. And I'm saying you're right, but I think we can come out of this thing much stronger with more maturity and how a society should take care of itself and evolve if we handle this with good leadership and a strong offensive attitude, not a defensive, lock me in and I don't want to knowaAnd I don't want to see the enemy, and he better not come to my door. One of doing the right things, but doing it with a spirit of collegial of national sort of enthusiasm to get the damn thing sorted out and to beat the enemy.

MG: Do you start to think about what we will come out into? People use the phrase "when we return to normal" and they talk about businesses opening up and sports teams playing again and we can go out and live the lives that we were living, six months ago, two months ago. Do you start to think about what that will look like?

ROMEO DALLAIRE: First of all, I don't think we'll go back to normal. I think that we will go back to a different plateau of what our society will feel as a society and how it will respond to each other, but also to the possibility that something like this might happen again. And so I think we're going to adjust, however, between the crisis time and as we sort of move towards peace. And then from peace start rebuilding, we're going to see more casualties. We're going to see a lot of walking wounded because it won't be a physical exercise that I won't be the virus. That's going to be the threat. It will be the ability of people to handle the scars of their experiences during the crisis. And that's going to need a lot of support. And the government has got to build a program to build resiliency to help assuage that has experience in the schools, in our institutions, in our society, and have professional support for those who entered this campaign already injured, let alone what's going to happen afterwards. Subsequently, when you say that the threat has gone and we're going to be normalcy, that normalcy in itself will not be the same. And so in that time frame, how are we building on this experience as a nation to rejuvenate ourselves and to use it as an experience of our society to be better. To be more effective.

MG: I was going to say, could we be better coming out of this?

ROMEO DALLAIRE: Absolutely. But we won't be better if we sit down and keep mumbling and grumbling and sort of waiting for this thing to go over instead of demonstrating the combative attitudes within our families. We're pulling through this and there's an atmosphere of positive ability to overcome, because if we sense that word from the leadership vows that we're being overwhelmed and that we cannot, in fact, see the end. Sure, we'll lose some battles. We lose battles in war, but the losing a battle is not losing the war. And so that has got to be put into perspective and those experiences, yeah, we'll build on that and the family will as well as society will.

MG: How are you coping with all of this hard? Our lives have been turned upside down and you have seen many things over the course of your life. How are you coping with all of this?

ROMEO DALLAIRE: I am with the most magnificent women on Earth. And I am in a 200 year old house in a very small French-Canadian village on the St. Lawrence River, down river from Quebec City. And the beauty of what I'm seeing around me is sustaining me. And, you know, during the war in Rwanda, when you entered the villages that were slaughtered, even the birds didn't sing. The silence was absolutely overwhelming and blew your mind at how this vacuum could exist. Well, I'm going outside and I'm seeing birds singing. And if I'm seeing birds singing and I'm seeing the geese coming back from the south, I know we're building through this thing.

MG: General Dallaire, take care of yourself. A pleasure to talk to you. Thank you.

ROMEO DALLAIRE: Yeah, you take care too and keep that positive attitude. Well done.

MG: Retired Lieutenant-General Romeo Dallaire served as force commander of the United Nations Assistance Mission for Rwanda prior to and during the 1994 genocide. He is the author of Shake Hands with the Devil: The Failure of Humanity in Rwanda. He's also a former Canadian senator.

[Music]

MG: You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. My name's Matt Galloway.

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VOICE 1: Here's my 90 year old father singing in a tune for you. What's the name of the song?

VOICE 2: Wreck of the Old 97.

[Harmonica playing "Wreck of the Old 97"]

MG: This is Nova Scotia resident Charlie Muise, beginning his rendition of the American folk classic "Wreck of the Old 97." Little did he know that it wasn't just his daughter who would be moved by this performance, but as it turned out, thousands and thousands of strangers on the Internet.

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[Singing "Wreck of the Old 97"]

VOICE 1: Good job, Dad. Good job.

MG: Charlie's performance received over 9000 likes and 1200 shares after his daughter posted it in a Facebook group called Ultimate Nova Scotia Kitchen Party COVID-19 Edition. Kitchen parties are, as you may know, a Maritime tradition. Families and friends traditionally gather to sing, dance, drink and eat. They have now moved so much of our social interactions have online. That group was created just a few weeks back by Nova Scotian Heather Thompson. She wanted to counter the bleak tone on social media by inviting people to post videos of themselves playing music. Ron Muise has posted his own music in the Facebook group. Happens to be the proud son of the 98 year old musician you just heard. Ron is in Bridgewater, Nova Scotia. Ron, good morning.

RON MUISE: Good morning. Good morning, Matt.

MG: Great to hear your dad in fine form there. Why do you think that performance of his was such a hit?

RON MUISE: Well, I talked to him last night on the phone and he said he had it was up to 40,000 shares and he said, why do you think everybody liked me like that? I said, well, because you're 98, you're still in good shape, you're still singing and you're you're doing great. And people love it. And I said, I'm a little jealous because he said yeah. So anyway, no, he's doing fine. And mum is too. They're both the same age. They're both 98 and they're living in their own home and they're doing great.

MG: That's fantastic. What does he, I mean, I don't know that's a huge audience that you never would expect, but for the power of technology. What does he make of all that attention?

RON MUISE: I think that it's great that we have this technology because I've been putting on shows on once a week. The one hour shows and we have been able to contact through the Internet our families from B.C., Labrador, Newfoundland and all our friends and neighbours that tune in. And it's just the same as having them all in the house, having a great time and it's brought us closer together, I think. With this disease going on I think that people are getting closer together through the internet.

MG: For people who have never been to a kitchen party, just briefly describe what it's like.

RON MUISE: Well, the kitchen at kitchen party usually is when we invite people over and they bring over their instruments and we have one or two hour session of playing good, good old music and we get used to that. And we have friends and family and we have drinks and food and we have a great time with this going on. And we have to remain in our homes. We don't have that and we miss that. So what we do is we we are recreating that through the through the Internet and bringing it close to to what it actually is that we actually feel that the people are here. They converse back and forth and the same as having. So it is it's bringing a little bit normality to her to what's going on.

MG: What was that like, when you were growing up and you hear your dad playing there, obviously, a lot of music in the house, what was that like for you when you were a kid?

RON MUISE: That was something that remained with me all this time. A lot of the tunes and a lot of the country songs that I do are songs that I've heard my dad do when I was growing up. And as a small boy, when they sent us upstairs to go to bed and our bedroom was upstairs, it was a little grate in the ceiling. And they used to continue playing with the fiddles and the guitars and and singing. And I put my ear down on the grade and listened to it before I went to sleep. So it's memories that'll stay there forever.

MG: Why do we need this now do you think? These are tricky times for all of us and something like this can bring a smile to our faces. Why do you think we need something like this?

RON MUISE: Well, because it brings, I think it brings peace to our hearts when we hear that music and and it brings everybody together, and I think that it's something that we need and it's something that we really like to hear. And it does. It gives a peace to our hearts and minds and it brings everybody together. I just love it and look forward to it.

ROMEO DALLAIRE: Does it help you as well? I mean, for people who are watching, it's one thing, but for you playing it, it must help as well.

RON MUISE: Yes. Yes. I play just about every day in the house. I've been stuck in a house here for for three over three weeks, having left except for for going out for medication and. But every day I'll take out take out my guitar and I'll play a few tunes. And it just it just so is mine. And I think. And I do a little bit of other playing and do a little bit of keyboard and a little bit of accordion. And and I take turns on these different things. And it really brings peace of my heart. And like the gentleman said before on your program, in both the boats. Being out in the country and listen to the birds and all that. We are on a four acre old farm here in a 150 year old house. And it's peaceful to just go outside and listen to the birds and whatnot, so I could relate with him. But the music is is a great part of our lives and my dad's life. And he's always singing. He's been playing at the variety show and even up until last year, the Legion, he plays at the Legion for fundraisers and he's been doing it for years. Love it.

MG: Well, I'm glad he's healthy. Give him our best and your mum too. And keep playing and take care of yourself, Ron.

RON MUISE: OK. Thank you very much for having us, Matt. And take care of yourself and all your listeners and just keep on singing on and playing.

MG: Fantastic. Ron Muise is a musician in Bridgewater, Nova Scotia. Here's a tune he posted up. He wrote it for Canada's 150th birthday. It's called "That's Canada.".

[Song: "That's Canada" by Ron Muise]

MG: Ron will take us to the newsbreak. We're back in about 90 seconds time. We'll talk about baking bread. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway.

[Music]

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Face masks should not replace other measures to stop spread of COVID-19

Guests: Andre Picard

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Canada's top doctor has changed her tune somewhat on the issue of face masks. For weeks, Chief Medical Officer Theresa Tam questioned the usefulness of these masks for the general public. But now here's how her view has evolved.

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VOICE: Wearing a non-medical mask, even if you have no symptoms, is an additional measure that you can take to protect others around you. In situations where physical distancing is difficult to maintain, such as in public transit or maybe at a grocery store, a non-medical mask can reduce the chance of your respiratory droplets coming into contact with others or land on surfaces. So wearing a non-medical mask in the community has not been proven to protect the person wearing it. It is an additional way that you can protect others.

MG: Andre Picard is a health columnist with the Globe and Mail and one of this country's leading public health voices. We have been checking in with him regularly as this pandemic has progressed. And he's back with us now. Andre, good morning.

ANDRE PICARD: Good morning.

MG: What did you make of Dr. Tam telling Canadians yesterday that wearing a mask could help slow the spread of COVID-19? This is a bit of a change.

ANDRE PICARD: It's a bit of a change in policy, but kind of anticlimactic. Other groups around the world have been doing this, making this subtle change and Canada was kind of inevitable. And it is, I think, we have to remember, it is a pretty subtle change. All along they've said, yeah, there's maybe some benefits to wearing a mask, but there are also some can be unintended consequences and that's still the message they're trying to get out.

MG: I guess it's confusing for some people because for several weeks, Theresa Tam was saying that this was not a step that people should consider taking and they wonder why it took to this point for her to change that tune?

ANDRE PICARD: I think it's a bit of an evolution. It's a worry. There's growing evidence that there can be transmission of asymptomatic people so people don't feel sick, can be out and about and they can transmit the illness. So this is becoming something that they didn't think was possible early on in the pandemic and now they think it is. So it sort of gives a little bit one little reason to maybe wear a mask, especially if you're mingling with people. So it's a subtle change. But again, there's lots of worries about you have to wear it properly. You can't use it as an excuse to say, oh, I can go chat with my neighbours now they have a mask. So all these things that are not directly related to mask wearing but can have can occur if people don't think them through.

MG: What does it say about what we're still learning about COVID-19 and how it spreads? This issue of of asymptomatic transfer's is something that a lot of people I think were confused about and wondered whether that was happening weeks ago. So what are we still learning about this?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I think it's just a reminder that science just evolves little step by step and policies have to evolve as a result. So we learn new stuff every day. Some of it is true, but very technical and the public takes it as gospel. So you have to be careful how you interpret the evidence. And, you know, I know Dr. Tam is getting a lot of people saying, oh, you know, they should have done this months ago, but they have to adjust to the science and they have to be, I think, overly cautious in that position to not overstate the benefits or the harms of new things that come on.

MG: Is your expectation, in the paper this morning, you talk about this as some ways being a sign of the new normal. Is your expectation that now this will be how people go out in public, is with some sort of face covering on?

ANDRE PICARD: I think if the numbers continue to rise, if the worry continues to rise, I think this is going to be a civic movement more than a scientific movement. It's going to be a symbol of saying, listen, I'm worried about my neighbours if I go to the grocery store. So, yeah, I think I've already seen a lot more masks. And I think we're going to see them much more commonly.

MG: These are homemade masks meant to be used outside of hospitals. What is the situation inside hospitals when it comes to the supply of medical masks?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, the situation is quite dire. A lot of provinces are running very low. Quebec saying, you know, we have less than a week supply of protective equipment, including masks. So they're really on the edge and a lot of medical professionals are worried about this change in policy because they don't want people grabbing surgical masks and such that, you know, if you wear them, that has to be a homemade mask. So this whole The Current procurement of medical equipment is I think Chrystia Freeland, the deputy prime minister, yesterday called it the Wild West, and that's the reality. Every country around the world is scrambling to get more masks, to get more gowns, to get more respirators, ventilators, and they're all feeding with each other. And there are actually very few suppliers of these around the world.

MG: You ever seen anything quite like the situation coming into the United States where the White House orders 3M to stop exporting these masks? And then there has to be this back-channel negotiations with various levels of government to create this deal so that some of these masks can be sent to Canada?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, you know, we're learning a lot about medicine and science and this, but we're learning even a lot more about politics, right? The politics of this are beyond the pale and some of the stuff coming out of the US, like the masks business is just a shocking example. And thankfully, I think that one will turn out. But the threat of holding back all medical equipment from the rest of the world and keeping it for the U.S., I think that sent a shudder through much of the world and I think it's going to change the industries, the drug industry, the medical supply industry after this is going to be become very, very different. It's not going to be centred in the U.S. anymore.

MG: Well, again, there was this kind of conversation, it was a couple of weeks ago it seems like, time moves on very quickly, but around the idea of a vaccine and whether this vaccine, if it was created in Germany, then could be bought by the United States and only be available. Is that is there some sort of precedent that could be set for the fight for supplies of whatever they happen to be? Whether it's food, for example, whether it's medicines, whether it's medical equipment in the midst of this pandemic?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, absolutely. I think these discussions are forcing us to think about who hets what and where and when and how do, you know, do the spoils go to the richest, to the most powerful, those with the best army, with the best manufacturing capacity? These are really, really big questions that this pandemic is forcing us to think about. And, you know, we had these discussions 100 years ago during the great influenza. There is a lot of this geopolitical posturing. And, you know, it was a time right after the war and we're seeing that again, that kind of complex geopolitics.

MG: On the other side of that, we keep talking about the unprecedented collaboration between researchers and some pharmaceutical companies when it comes to trying to figure out a treatment for this. There's a piece in the paper this morning talking about this experimental treatment that's happening here in Canada. Blood transfusion experts working to create this anti-body plasma and injecting it from patients who have already recovered from the virus into those who are still infected. What's the promise there, as you understand it?

ANDRE PICARD: Yeah it's a really exciting science, but science, that's almost hundreds of years. So this notion that once you get sick from something, you develop antibodies, so you become immune. So therefore, can we take your blood with the antibodies, give it to someone else and then confer immunity on them? Essentially, it's the same idea as a vaccine. That's what we do with the vaccine is we make people think, make the body's immune system, think that they have a disease, then they develop antibodies. This is another way of doing that, trying to transfuse antibodyies. So it's exciting, but of course it has to be tested. We don't know if it'll work out. The danger here is, again, that people take this as gospel. They start taking blood and injecting it in each other. You know that's the danger of this stuff in the modern world. Once things got on the Internet, people take them as I'm going to do this and it really has to be tested.

MG: In the meantime the fight continues. And we're hearing yesterday that three more people died at the Pine Crest Nursing Home in Bobcaygeon, Ontario. More than 25 residents have died there thus far. You had a column last week that got a lot of attention and you said that if you can, you should get your relatives out of long term care. Why did you say that?

ANDRE PICARD: I said that mostly as a way of sparking discussion to make people realise just how serious things can be once this illness gets into a nursing home. It's really, really devastating. We see the example of Pine Crest, 27 dead. You know, one in three residents died in the home. There's one this morning in suburban Montreal, 105 residents in a single home are infected. This is really it spreads like wildfire among an elderly population that's at risk. So I think it was mostly to say, listen, you have to be aware of the risk to your loved ones and I did make the provocative statement and a geriatrician also did saying if you can get people out. But of course, the if is really important. You have to recognise that most people in in long term care are not able to leave. They have 70 percent of them have dementia. Many of them are incontinent, have mobility issues. So it's all reasons that people can't leave. But those people are relatively healthy and get out of those situations if their families can help them. That'll relieve the pressure. And the reality is that there are homes calling people, begging them, can you come and get your loved ones? We can't handle it anymore. People are not getting their showers. People are getting spam sandwiches for their meals because there is no kitchen staff. There's a real profound staffing problem in these that existed before. And the pandemic has exacerbated it too, sometimes a deadly degree.

MG: What did you hear back from people and how did you respond? Because I know that, as you said, it was a provocative statement, but I know that people also responded in force. How did you respond to that and what did you hear?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, there is a lot of anger. You know, how dare you say this? You're making us feel guilty. Our loved ones have to. There, and I recognise that tonight in order could have been more nuance in the comments. And then there is the other people who said, I'm glad you told me this. I was on the fence. I took my loved one out two weeks ago and I'm so glad I did. So I would say mostly ange and that's okay. You know people are that's what a newspaper columnist gets sometimes. They have to own what they say and when there's a lack of nuance, then you get it from your readers and that's fine.

MG: What does it say about, to your point, the general state of long term care? I mean, it becomes exacerbated perhaps in the midst of a pandemic like this, but there's a larger story around long term care.

ANDRE PICARD: There's a much larger story. And I think it's, you know, like all stories, very complex. A lot of people get fabulous care. We can't forget that. But the staff is despite the system, not because of it. And that's to be the real tragedy. We underpay and overwork people in these homes to a perverse degree. And a lot of this has been studied. You know, we had an inquiry in Ontario after the inquiry, after a nurse killed many residents. And that really exposed a lot of these problems and they were supposed to be addressed and they never were. And we're going to have another inquiry and they're going to tell us that we have to fix a staffing problem. It's really profound and it's not fair to the people who work in these homes are the people who live there. So we really have to address that and it's unfortunate that we didn't do it before because it's left people vulnerable and open to this illness.

MG: Just finally, we are hearing we hear this every week it seems like that this is a critical week. This is going to be a very difficult week. There were some positive, I say, in quotation marks almost, but, yes, some positive numbers that seem to come out of British Columbia, perhaps some positivity coming out of Quebec as well. Where are we at do you think in this pandemic?

ANDRE PICARD: Yes. So this crucial period is all about, you know, the next couple of weeks, it's because all the travellers are virtually all the travellers have been home for a couple of weeks. So we have a sense of that. So now we're really getting a sense of is this spreading in the community? And if so, how much and why this period is so crucial is it's going to tell us of all these sacrifices we're making, all this social distancing. Is it working? And as you said, there's some small clues, but only in B.C., a little bit in Quebec, a little bit in Alberta. Some small clues that, yeah, it is working. Now, that doesn't mean that the pandemic is going to end from one day to the next. But what we're seeing is sort of a decrease in the increase. So we're seeing a lesser number of cases day to day. So connected 900 new cases one day, it has 800 the next day. Now, that's not great, but it is a sign of progress. And B.C. is seeing even better numbers, are seeing a little bit of flattening. The question now is, can we maintain that and we get laps? You know, if we start telling people it's looking good, we said throw off the masks and off we go to the park and to those shopping centre, etc. So it's getting that balance of making people stick to these really difficult measures in some cases because they're going to get a greater benefit in a few more weeks.

MG: Andre, great to speak with you as always, and we'll chat again. Thank you.

ANDRE PICARD: Thank you.

MG: Andre Picard, Globe and Mail's health columnist. We'll check back in with him in the weeks ahead. You know that this is a health crisis. It's also an economic crisis. Three million Canadians, more than 3 million Canadians have applied for income aid in the wake of this pandemic. You have a lot of questions I know about money right now. Questions like what happened to my retirement savings? What happened to the money I lost in the stock market? How do I pay tuition if I can't get a summer job? I have maxed out all my credit cards and I still have bills to pay. What am I supposed to do about making ends meet? We would like to hear your money questions. Send your money questions to thecurrent@cbc.ca or tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. Even better record a short voice memo of your question. Take out the voice memo on your phone, record your question there and send it to us via email thecurrent@cbc.ca. Again, that address is thecurrent@cbc.ca. And later this week, we'll speak with a personal finance author Lesley-Anne Scorgie. She will be here to answer as many of your money questions as we can. Again, send them along. Voice memo would be great because it's radio and we want to hear from you, thecurrent@cbc.ca.

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Quebec yeast factory works overtime to meet rising demand from newbie bread bakers

Guests: Charles Tache, Michael Sheffer

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway. In this time of crisism, many of you are rising to the occasion. And by that I mean baking bread. It is a thing now, in case you hadn't heard. Social media has exploded with all sorts of lovely pictures of golden loaves of freshly baked bread. There are how-to tutorials across the Internet. The problem is, in this sudden need to need, there is a run on key ingredients. Charles Tache is the plant manager at AB Mauri. It's the largest manufacturer for yeast in the consumer market in North America. You'll know the name Fleischman's yeast. Charles, good morning.

CHARLES TACHE: Good morning, Mr. Galloway.

MG: Where is all the yeast?

CHARLES TACHE: I think it's in everyone's pantry right now. We've seen all the baking aisles just emptied out in the stores. We're producing here 24/7 and we're shipping out thousands and thousands of cases every day, but it seems that demand is huge right now.

MG: When did you start to notice that surge in demand?

CHARLES TACHE: Well, we don't only fabric the consumer yeast. We also make the industrial. So we saw probably mid-March, big, a huge spike in demand from our industrial customers. The bakers and they've been producing massively to restock the shelves that were emptied out. But now we've been seeing for the past week and this week also a sharp decrease on the the industrial side. So all the bakeries have been slowing down and sharp decreases.

MG: That's interesting. Why do you think so many people are baking bread right now?

CHARLES TACHE: Well, you mentioned social media. That's probably a big factor. People also are isolated at home. They have time. And also, baking bread is fun. It's relaxing and actually, there's not a lot that smell, that a good loaf of bread is going to give to your house. is really is rewarding.

MG: You speak from experience as a baker?

CHARLES TACHE: Yes. Yes. I bake.

MG: What is your specialty?

CHARLES TACHE: Actually my wife baked one this morning. It's just a country loaf. It's my own recipe and it's very nice.

MG: Very nice. I'm sure it is. Now, as you mentioned, the store shelves are empty. People are clamouring for yeast. They have time on their hands to bake and they don't want to feel left out because of all the pictures they're seeing on the Internet. How have you adapted to the big spike in demand at the factory?

CHARLES TACHE: Well, at the factory, we've been running 24/7. We've been asking some operators that had planned vacation to cancel their vacation. A lot of them are working overtime. So I want to thank them for for this right now. But there's a limit to what we can produce right now because machine wise and also with, we can produce a lot of the yeast, but we need to package it. So we need to have the packaging materials. Distribution centres are geared for a normal demand, not a huge spike like this.

MG: How do you actually go about making the yeast?

CHARLES TACHE: It's pretty complex, but if I want to resume it quickly, yeast is a cell that reproduces by budding. So it will eat sugar and then it will create a bud and you'll have it after three or four hours, two cells, which after three or four hours, you're going to have four cells. So it's going to multiply by two every three to four hours. So we start with probably from a test tube, we take maybe the tip of a pen and then we gradually feed the yeast. And after a week, we'll end up with around 400,000 litres of that yeast.

MG: Wow 400,000 litres?

CHARLES TACHE: Yes.

MG: But it takes you a week to do that?

CHARLES TACHE: It takes a week, it takes a lot of energy and takes a lot of sugar also.

MG: How long do you think this, I mean, it's obviously great for business, but how long do you think the surge in demand for yeast will continue?

CHARLES TACHE: It's really hard to say. We haven't, we're in uncharted territory here. We we don't know. Will it continue once life comes back to normal? Will people continue to bake bread at home? I don't know.

MG: Do you have people who contact you personally and say, listen, I know you are the guy that I can reach out to to try and find some yeast? Are people coming to you in these yeast shortage and trying to get the backdoor into some of your supplies?

CHARLES TACHE: Yeah, obviously.

MG: What do you say?

CHARLES TACHE: Sure. That's what I make. Well, it's really there's some people that yes, I can offer some, but for most of them, we're just saying hang tight. You know, we're shipping thousands of cases every day. Those stores are going to replenish pretty soon.

MG: It's a good time to be in your business.

CHARLES TACHE: Yes, it is.

MG: Charles, thank you.

CHARLES TACHE: Thank you very much. Have a great day.

MG: And you. Charles Tache is the plant manager at AB Mauri. It makes Fleischman's yeast. Maybe you want to join the quarantine bread making trend. Maybe you don't know where to start. Maybe you need some advice. There are lots of great cookbooks and YouTube videos. In one Toronto condo building though, a passionate amateur named Michael Sheffer has been teaching his neighbours to bake bread via video conference.

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[Sounds from baguette making class at the Merchandise Building Baking Exchange in Toronto]

MG: That's part of last weekend's baguette making class at the Merchandise Building Baking Exchange in Toronto. The instructor, Michael Sheffer, joins us now. Michael, good morning.

MICHAEL SHEFFER: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Baguettes are tough. How did the baguettes turn out?

MICHAEL SHEFFER: They turned out really well for a first attempt. They were great students, great community.

MG: What about the one, what about the one that didn't get the yeast?

MICHAEL SHEFFER: It actually turned out. I mean, there are ways, especially when you have instant yeast, you can actually manipulate the dough and, you know, put the instant yeast in and it will grow.

MG: When did you first start baking bread? What do you love about this?

MICHAEL SHEFFER: I first started baking bread when I start taking courses at George Brown about five years ago, I guess. And what I found of making bread was, well, I liken it a lot to the first time that I got a package of sea monkeys when I was a kid. Right? Because you put it in and they were instant yeast or just using natural and it grows. And the great thing about it is it grows. You can pick it. You can nurture it. You nurture it. You bake it. And then you put peanut butter on it. You know and with sea monkeys, you couldn't do that because the cocktail shrimp classes were too small.

MG: That would not advised to eat the sea monkeys, no.

MICHAEL SHEFFER: Not at all. No.

MG: There are a lot of people who are baking bread now for the first time or maybe for the first time in a long, long time. Where do you start? What's a good place to begin?

MICHAEL SHEFFER: A good place to start is the Internet, actually, because there are tons of instructional videos on how to make a good healthy loaf of bread. But you can start there. And if it piques your interest and if you get hooked, which I know a lot of the members of the Merchandise Building Exchange are, you'll just start producing this wonderful edible product.

MG: But people will think and they'll see the photos online and that's part of the Instagram phenomenon is people don't post the loaf of bread that didn't work out. They post the perfect loaf of bread and they'll think I could never replicate that. Should you have that sense of anxiety, that sense of concern that what you're going to be doing is not going to look as beautiful as what everybody else seems to be producing?

MICHAEL SHEFFER: Well, no, I mean, that's one of the beauties of bread, too, is that even if you, if the bread falls, it can still be used. Right? You can still eat it. It's still just, so what if it doesn't look like something from a James Beard catalogue or a Tartine Bakery? It just doesn't matter. The fact that you've done it and you can laugh about it and forgive yourself for not doing it correct the first time, you know, learning something. It's ongoing. It's life. Life in the time of COVID.

MG: People will talk a lot about their sour dough starter. Is this a good time to start making sour dough bread?

MICHAEL SHEFFER: Yes, absolutely. So, I mean, the common misconception is that when people think of sour dough bread, they think of, you know, San Francisco southward. And that's usually the way they go. The reality is, if you go into any bakery, if they've used natural, then all of the loaves or sour dough.

MG: And natural levin for people who don't know is what?

MICHAEL SHEFFER: It is well yeast sells everywhere. So just by putting let's call it a net of water and flour on your counter, you will capture it yourself. And if you keep feeding the cells, you know, as the gentleman before me was talking about will continue, will get stronger. They'll divide. And how this nice, healthy, sticky, stinky, bubbly mess in your fridge.

MG: There's something magic about it, isn't it? With flour, water, salt and those natural yeasts that you can make something that you can eat.

MICHAEL SHEFFER: Exactly. You know, and I mean, you're not even touching the fact that it's an extreme way to calm yourself down in this time. There's a mindful effect to making bread. And it's not about expressing frustration as much as it is focussing on creating something and ultimately wondering how it's going to end up when it comes out of your oven.

MG: If you have one piece of advice, one tip that you would share an amateur newbee bread baker, what would it be?

MICHAEL SHEFFER: Practise and patience for yourself. Just keep trying and get ready to eat a lot of bread and get well, actually get ready to give away a lot of your bread because if you're eating what you're baking, well, that's a whole other segment.

MG: People talk about the COVID-15, meaning that they're going to put on some weight because they're eating so much of the bread that they're baking. Michael, thanks for the tips. Happy baking.

MICHAEL SHEFFER: Thank you very much, Matt and you too.

MG: Michael Sheffer is an amateur baker in Toronto. He's been sharing his skills with his neighbours via video conference. Are you baking bread? I have bread that is on my counter and bread that's in the fridge that will be baked later on today as well. We'd love to see your bread pictures. You can tweet us @TheCurrent.CBC. It's how we're spending our time these days, among other many things. The CBC News is next. Coming up in about six minutes time, we'll talk about what's happening in hospitals where there is a push to create more space in those institutions. That means some treatments and surgeries are being pushed back. We'll talk about trying to stay hopeful. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current. Stay with us.

[Music]

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The other consequence of COVID-19 – longer waits for patients with other illnesses

Guests: Sherry Beattie, Dianne Russell, Kerr y Bowman

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to an extended edition of The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Are you looking in the mirror? Are you wondering maybe it's time for a haircut? Many Canadians are feeling that way and they are taking scissors into their own very inexperienced hands. Cautionary tales of quarantine haircuts coming up. First though, the care they need is on hold. Meet the patients overshadowed by the coronavirus.

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MG: As the coronavirus becomes more and more consuming for frontline health workers, hospitals have been cancelling elective surgeries in what's described as non urgent appointments. For some Canadians with serious illnesses, though, this is an incredibly stressful time because waiting could have an impact on their prognosis. I'm joined now by two patients who've had treatments and appointments pushed back. Dianne Russell has been diagnosed with breast cancer. She's in Vancouver. And Sherry Beattie had a stroke in 2017 and suffers from an irregular heartbeat. She is in Erinsville, Ontario. Good morning to you both.

SHERRY BEATTIE: Good morning.

DIANNE RUSSELL: Morning.

MG: Diane, if I might, I'd like to start with you. Tell me about the medical care that you need. That has been delayed because of COVID-19.

DIANNE RUSSELL: Sure. I am waiting for a biopsy. I had symptoms, but it's also because we're supposed to be planning the surgeries, surgery to remove from a hysterectomy just for a preventative reason. I've had breast cancer twice and we're hoping to prevent other cancers from happening. And I'm also had my monthly cancer prevention. I have an injection once a month, and that has been delayed and it isn't, I was supposed to be able to go get it next week, but I've since become sick and so now I'm in self-isolation again. It's the third time and so it's going to be delayed again.

MG: That's a lot.

DIANNE RUSSELL: Yeah.

MG: How are you doing?

DIANNE RUSSELL: I was actually looking forward to coming out of isolation so I could get it this coming week. And then I ended up in the E.R. Sunday night with symptoms of strep throat, and that was the one place I could get a test. And so, yeah. So now I'm back at home for another two weeks and it's stressful. I'm going to be about a month, at least a month overdue by the time I get it, but it weighs on you.

MG: I'm sure it does. Sherry, tell me a bit about your situation and what's been happening with your appointments.

SHERRY BEATTIE: I was booked for a cardiac ablation March 31st and all the pre-op testing on March 30th. And because all elective surgeries have to be cancelled, this surgery has been cancelled for me. And I was told that once they resume the surgeries procedures, then they will be recalling them in the order that they were cancelled. So I have no idea when that's going to be.

MG: You're just in a holding pattern.

SHERRY BEATTIE: Yep, just in a holding pattern waiting to be called.

MG: What is it just, what's a cardiac ablation?

SHERRY BEATTIE: Because of atrial fibrillation, my heart beats irregularly. We've tried tmedications. I've had two cardioversion. So ablation is the last. Hopefully it's the last step to getting my heart beating regularly again. They tried to kill off the irregular current in your heart to have it beating regularly and normally again.

MG: And in the midst of all of this, your husband also has a heart condition.

SHERRY BEATTIE: Yes. My husband, February 23rd, had a heart attack. He ended up having triple bypass march 10th and then March 16th, he came home. All of his doctors appointments have been over the phone. We've been taking pictures of his incisions and e-mailing them to our doctor.

MG: How are you holding up?

SHERRY BEATTIE: It can be a little stressful, but I think overall it's better to be safer holed up at home tend to be out in the public and get this virus. At least we live in the country and we can get outside a little bit and get some fresh air.

MG: Do you have any sense and I'll ask Diane this as well. But Sherry, for you, do you have any sense as to what this delay being, again, kind of in limbo, on hold, what it means for your overall health?

SHERRY BEATTIE: Well, for my overall health, I've been waiting for the cardiac ablation for a year. So a little bit longer is I guess the wait is worthwhile rather than having it done, being in the hospital meaning we're exposed to the virus.

MG: What about for you, Dianne? I mean, there's a couple of things. One is your injection. The monthly injection, but the other part is the biopsy. Have your doctors told you anything about what waiting means for a prognosis?

DIANNE RUSSELL: Well, the with the biopsy, I actually didn't even speak to anyone. I just received a voice mail saying that all procedures were cancelled.

MG: So they didn't call you and speak to you and say that this, I mean a biopsy is a big thing. That they didn't say that this is going to be postponed?

DIANNE RUSSELL: It was just a voice message, and then I called in and said, is this happening? They said, no. It was supposed to be March 30th, but it's, you know, everything's been cancelled. And I just I spoke to the receptionist in terms of my injection. I spoke to the receptionist for my oncologist and they did not want me to delay, but my husband had travelled outside the country for work. And as soon as they found that out, they said, no, you need to isolate, you can't come in. And then I proceeded to get sick during the first isolation and that's just kind of continued on and I'm immunocompromised. And I was very vigilant about not going out, sanitizing everything and I still got sick. And so I think that's the part of it too. It's just the worry about getting sick and then that's preventing my cancer treatment, which which worries me.

MG: You do peer support work with other people who have cancer.

DIANNE RUSSELL: I do.

MG: And we've heard these stories from across the country of people who find themselves in the situation that you find yourself in, whether it's waiting for treatment, whether it's waiting for surgery. I spoke with a woman who was waiting to have surgery and wasn't sure when that was going to happen. What do you hear from other people and what do you say to them?

DIANNE RUSSELL: I'm hearing all kinds of things right now. Both recent conversation I had was finding out that apparently there's camp. The cancer lodges across Canada where people who live in more rural locations, a in urban centres while they're undergoing radiation or chemotherapy. I'm hearing that those centres are being closed. And so a lot of those treatments are not going to be accessible for those people who who need to stay there. I'm hearing, you know, other people on the same medication. I am these monthly injections, you know, struggling to try and find a way to get the injections. I know someone who's had she's dealing with her seventh cancer right now. She's severely immunocompromised. She's not allowed to take her daughter into the cancer centre because there's no visitors allowed. And so there's a whole struggle of child care. She's had to have her chemo delayed twice because of this issue. Yeah, it's I think we're all just trying to remain hopeful and calm and take care of ourselves in terms of not exposing ourselves.

MG: How do you do that? How do you stay calm? Sherry talks about being able to go out in the country and, you know, get a bit of fresh air. How are you managing all of this?

DIANNE RUSSELL: I'm lucky I live, our house backs onto a bit of a green space. And so, yes, we have access to some outside space. There's still a lot of people out there. I was walking down the street the other day and somebody actually coughed. They had their entire head out the car and coughed and I thought I was doing a good job by walking kind of down the middle of the road. But yeah, just trying to walk and doing exercise at home when I can and staying in touch with friends. Yeah, it's. It's not fun waiting, but I think cancer patients are often used to waiting or waiting between scans. You know we wait for results. We wait for a lot of things. So I think over time you get a little bit used to the waiting.

MG: You both find yourselves in this waiting period and I'm just wondering, what would you say, Dianne, to Sherry about what she's in right now and the situation that you both find ourselves in?

DIANNE RUSSELL: I just feel like I'm glad that we're not in this alone. And I think that when we're able to talk to other people and sort of express, you know, sometimes, you know, there's a push to be positive. But sometimes it's OK when we can actually just say, hey, you know, I'm a little bit afraid. And just to be able to have someone to be able to talk frankly with, that's what I find happens in our groups a lot. And I think it really helps us sort of weather it a little bit.

MG: Sherry, what would you say to Dianne about about the situation that you both. It's a different manifestation of the situation you both find yourselves in, where the health care system that you rely on has kind of put you on pause.

SHERRY BEATTIE: Well, there's not, everybody seems to be having the same issue. I know the Heart and Stroke, they have a Facebook group, that heart and stroke patients survivors get together and we give suggestions to each other or we then to each other. They also have a caregiver's group online so that you have your own, the people that know the struggles you're going through and they're going through them too. So we can see each other a lot of support that way.

MG: I wish the best for the both of you. Sorry, go ahead, Dianne.

DIANNE RUSSELL: I would say that is similar in the cancer community too. We have a lot of online groups and, you know, people who get it. People who are in our same situation.

MG: And the venting is important sometimes to, as you say.

DIANNE RUSSELL: Yes. And the laughs and, you know, encouragement and, you know, making jokes on how we're getting through this and yeah.

MG: I wish you both good health and I hope that you get the treatment that you need sooner rather than later. In the meantime, thank you for speaking with us. Your situation is one that I think a lot of people will be experiencing across this country. Thank you.

DIANNE RUSSELL: Thank you.

SHERRY BEATTIE: Thank you. Stay safe.

MG: And you. Sherry Beattie suffered a stroke in 2017. Dianne Russell is undergoing treatment for breast cancer and awaiting a biopsy as well. The procedures that we just heard about, biopsies, cardiac ablation, they don't sound like the kind of things that you should wait on, but with COVID-19 infections rising day by day, these are just the kind of decisions that doctors and hospitals are having to make. Kerry Bowman teaches bioethics and global health at the University of Toronto. Kerry, good morning to you.

KERRY BOWMAN: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Both Sherry and Dianne understand that we're in this extraordinary moment right now, but should we be worried that lives could be at risk beyond COVID patients that we're concerned about? Because as we're trying to create space in hospitals, procedures like the ones that Sherry and Dianne are waiting for have been put to the side.

KERRY BOWMAN: Yes, we absolutely should be worried, without question. And, you know, listening to their interviews. Well, yeah, it's very powerful. And I've heard this from other patients as well. And one of the things I was listening for is what's their point of contact if their symptoms change, if you know. And you know, they may not have a clear point of contact in which you're not. So what I mean by that is do they get a quick response? Is there a health care worker they can reach out to? And I'm hearing a voice mail messages, et cetera. So that's that's very, very worrisome. And, you know, I think many of us big picture can understand that, you know, society is shifting away and a lot of ways through the state of emergency to too large or social outcomes. But we have to be so careful that we do not leave people behind that could be put in harm's way. And, you know, the general general criteria for non-urgent is, you know, threat to patients life, permanent dysfunction, metastases, meaning cancer spread and rapidly worsening or severe symptoms. But you can see that there's going to be an element of subjectivity to that. And some people are going to transition from maybe being non urgent, urgent very quickly. And, you know, the health care structure in Canada, we tend to advocate and fight for our patients. One by one. And we respect their autonomy. And under these conditions, we're really being pulled into. I don't want to get too intellectual with this, but consequentialism what's best for the largest number of people. But we also have to be very, very careful as to who is being left behind. You know, I've also heard from people that there's been an interim period and that gap is closing this week that hurry up and wait situation where in fact, a week ago or so there actually probably was surgical capacity in some of the hospital. Right. But but and I get that because, you know, you're raising the risk of infection to other people. You're trying to clear the hospitals, but it's still very, very difficult call to balance all these.

MG: Who makes those calls? Who decides what is urgent and what isn't? That when somebody should get a biopsy or gets their treatment and somebody should not.

KERRY BOWMAN: You know, it's not completely clear to me or to anyone else. There are certainly directives that come down from hospitals and health care facilities. But, you know, there's general parameters. And I suspect a lot of this depends on physicians assessment of the situation. And, you know, one thing I would keep in mind, and I believe I'm not suggesting this for everyone, but in extreme situations, any Canadian has the right to a second opinion, even during this situation, because I do worry that people without any point of contact could get really isolated with these types of things. And, you know, to a large extent, the challenge, too, is these decisions about cancelling surgeries in some ways are being made for a clinical situation that doesn't fully exist yet or atleast a week ago.

MG: That was the other thing is could, we haven't seen the surge yet. People say that it's coming and you wonder whether if something was meant to happen a week ago or two weeks ago, whether that was cancelled not too hastily, but whether it needed to be cancelled at that point.

KERRY BOWMAN: That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And, you know, there is still the chance that we won't have a massive surgery. And one could argue some of these and I'm not criticizing anyone here, but probably some of these surgeries could have gone ahead. But we don't know that yet. And we're you know, we're just in such a we've never really as a nation if we have I don't know where it's it's historically been in a situation where we have to shift from the concepts of autonomy and advocating for our patients to one of the big, big picture, how can we maximize lives saved? But, you know, I worry a lot about the war metaphors that they're apt to a point, but we're not at war with each other. We're at war with a virus. And, you know, the problem with the war metaphors is it can really narrower thinking in terms of black and white, in terms of combat or non-combat. And, you know, also a lot of bad decisions were made in war time because of the pressure people were under. So I I worry about that. Even a hero thing. I get it. There's a lot of heroes out there. I get it. But the problem with heroes is they they're not expected to ever be wrong. And, you know, a lot of our leadership and I don't criticize them either. But things are changing face on this that. You know what? What's going on two weeks ago is different than what's going on now. So I think we have to remain very reflective about everything we're doing under these difficult circumstance.

MG: Heart and Stroke Foundation has this campaign with the tagline, emergencies are still emergencies. Are you concerned people would hesitate to seek care? They have an urgent condition, but they're reluctant to go to the hospital because they think they might get COVID-19. They worry that when they get there, it's going to be a chaotic situation and who knows whether they'll be seen and that people won't seek care in that situation?

KERRY BOWMAN: No, that's exactly right. And I think this will come at some serious consequences. Some people are afraid. Some people feel they are literally not welcome even in an emergency, because the only emergency right now is coated with, which is not true, of course, as we all know. And I worry about that. And again, I go back to, you know, how many people, imagine the stories we're not hearing. And you know, I hear lots of stories from lots of people and, you know, people with serious medical problems are in a lot of ways isolated. I've been told Telehealth, it's very hard to get through. I personally, I'm healthy and well. I would not want to have any form of illness at this point.

MG: Because you're worried that's something that could be elective could suddenly become urgent?

KERRY BOWMAN: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I just worry that, you know, it wouldn't be available, but that's all it is. But, you know, I worry for the people that are already facing these types of things. And you know this the reality is this will affect the trajectory of some people's lives. Some people may die sooner because of the decisions that are being made. You know, that's that's why I think we have to be very, very careful that to remain reflective and to simply say, you know, we're going to focus on what's best for the largest number of people, you know. That's true. But we also have to consider who we are, because this is when we show our true colours. And if we leave too many people behind and we get into nothing but large sort of algorithms and models of who's going to do well and who's not. We really may dehumanize ourselves.

MG: Kerry, good to speak with you, as always. Thank you.

KERRY BOWMAN: Welcome, Matt.

MG: Kerry Bowmen teaches bioethics and global health at the University of Toronto. Do you find yourself in this situation where there is medical care that you need? Treatment, biopsies, surgery that has been cancelled, postponed, put to the side because of the COVID-19 emergency? We'd love to hear your stories about this. E-mail us thecurrent@cbc.ca. Tweet us @TheCurrentCBC or go to the website. You can contact us through there, cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the Contact link. We were talking the other day about the power of music in these stressful times, and the question that I asked you was what is the music that you're listening to right now that perhaps eases some of that anxiety? Jane Thompson tweeted that she loves this classic by Oscar Peterson. It's "Hymn to Freedom.".

[Music: "Hymn to Freedom" by Oscar Peterson]

MG: Listen to that. Jane Thompson calls that piece "a perfect balance of harmony." And she is absolutely right. Oscar Peterson, "Hymn to Freedom." What music is soothing your soul in these difficult times? Write or send us a voice message. It's radio. We'd love to hear your voice. Take the phone out. Record into the Voice Memo app about the music that you're listening to and a story about why the song is meaningful to you. You can visit the website cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the Contact link or email us thecurrent@cbc.ca. Coming up in about 90 seconds. Advice on how to cut your own hair or not. That's on its way. This is The Current. I'm Matt Galloway. Stay with us.

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What the COVID-19 crisis tells us about the fight against climate change

Guests: Dr. Courtney Howard

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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[Protestors chanting "climate action needs to happen" in Toronto]

MG: Sounds from what feels like a lifetime ago. Thousands of protesters chanting in Toronto during the global climate strike last fall. Remember fall? Remember gathering with thousands and thousands of strangers? It may seem like we have hit the pause button on the life we used to live, but my next guest doesn't want us to lose sight of the need to address global warming just because we happen to be consumed by another emergency. Dr. Courtney Howard is an emergency doctor in Yellowknife and the board president of the Canadian Association of Physicians for the Environment. Doctor, good morning.

COURTNEY HOWARD: Good morning.

MG: Let's start with COVID-19. This is the emergency that obviously we're all so focused on right now. What's the situation in the Northwest Territories?

COURTNEY HOWARD: Well, we are 1500 kilometres away from Edmonton, up here in Yellowknife. So we've had more time than most jurisdictions in the world to prepare. So we've essentially revamped our entire healthcare system in a matter of weeks, lots of virtual care, different referral patterns. And we've now because we closed our borders quite early. We've got five cases. So we're still in that kind of waiting for the flood time, but we do feel really grateful for having had the time to get ready.

MG: And you were there in the E.R. when one of those patients arrived?

COURTNEY HOWARD: Yeah, and you know, tensions were high. We've all been reading a lot on the Internet about, you know, what happened in Italy and how health practitioners have been coping with, you know, really difficult situations in different parts of the world. So my team was definitely anxious. But, you know, we reminded ourselves that this is what we train for and everything went smoothly. And, you know, I've really never been so grateful for a functioning public health care system and a really strong public health public health specific system.

MG: The messages that we're getting around physical distancing, around the importance of staying home, not being around other people. How is that playing out in the Northwest Territories?

COURTNEY HOWARD: Well, in Yellowknife, the thing is, we're a relatively small community and we know one another, so I think that those really personal bonds and that trust that we have of one another is actually really helping us, you know, change things really quickly because you know, who does the job, they know you. And I think I find it that kind of eases transitions because you trust one another's ability to get the job done. We've definitely seen that good adherence to the social distancing also, because, you know, if you go outside, people know exactly who you are and they won't hesitate to call you out. So I think in some cases in small communities, we have a bit of an advantage in some ways in terms of our ability to kind of band together and pull together to prepare for something like this.

MG: Tell me, what else is on your mind in the midst of this? So much of the focus, obviously, is on this crisis, but what else are you thinking about as we go through this?

COURTNEY HOWARD: So I've done a lot of work on climate change and health and a lot of work on global health and so I have been living in the North for about 10 years and I serve a patient of population that lives in part of the world that's warming at almost the fastest rate in the world. So my patients up near the McKenzie River Delta, they're living in a place that's three degrees Celsius warmer than when these elders were born. So that has consequences for health like food security, impacts from trouble hunting, different mental health impacts from rapid landscape change and cultural impact. And so I started learning about climate change and the impact on health about a decade ago. That was right about when The Lancet called climate change the biggest health threat of the 21st century. And I really had the opportunity to do a lot of learning with some of the world's best stuff. I worked for The Lancet, clamped down on climate change and health last year. I'm part of the planetary health frame. And I think what we need to really realize is that climate change and the coronavirus are there. Part of the impact that natural systems have on human health, do we really need to reframe the way we're looking at it? In fact, the Corona virus crisis is the biggest wakeup call we've ever had. What do you have? New elements have the ability that threaten our society.

MG: What do you mean by that the biggest wakeup call?

COURTNEY HOWARD: So the coronavirus crisis is the result of a a virus that transferred from animals to humans as a result of a lack of care at the interface between humanity and the rest of the natural world. So, you know, we often think of health as something that happens within health care structures. And, you know, I went to school for, you know, many, many years in order to do work in the emergency department. And I'm really proud of the work that I do there. And it's critical, but only according to the best evidence we can find. About 20 to 25 percent of overall health comes out as a result of the work we do within health care structures. So we actually need to shift towards what can be known as a planetary health frame. So in 2015, the Lancet defined planetary health as the health of human civilization and the state of the natural systems upon which it depends. So when I'm explaining this to people, I think of it in terms of a nest. So at the bottom of the twigs, you have the ecological determinants of health. So those are things like water, soil, biodiversity, climate and those form kind of the foundation. And then if those are stable and things are going well, that gives us the opportunity to whine, then ask with financial and economic structures that allow us to build things like houses in universities. And then we have a lot of focussed resource and time we can at those give rise to the social determinants of health like housing and income and education. And if that's all really working well, then we can build this incredibly concept, complex structure. That's a hospital. And so like like a house, it's really easy to forget about your foundation while things are going well. But when crested here, we have to pay really close attention. And so what we're seeing right now is a global crisis resulting from a lack of care at this interface between humans and animals and things like biodiversity changes with regards to climate change. As people and animals move into new locations, things like habitat destruction are going to put us at risk of further crises just like this.

MG: Do you see an opportunity? People have talked to speaking with the environmentalist Bill McKibben a couple of weeks ago, and he saw the potential for using the adaptability that we have seen coming out of this crisis, but also the ingenuity, the way that governments have repositioned themselves almost on a dime. Do you see that as a way that we could think about how to address the threat of climate change?

COURTNEY HOWARD: Well, I think what we've seen is that we can change the world really quickly when we act fast. And so when we recognise a threat, when it's communicated clearly by experts, when decision makers listen to the experts. And when we take the action that is required in a time dependent manner to meet that threat, we can change the world very quickly. And so we're doing that right now and we need to do that with regards to climate change. You know, just a couple of weeks before all this happened, 20 percent of Australia was on fire and we lost 20 percent of their forest bio in a single year. And so, you know, there was also a huge report by UNICEF, the W.H.O. in The Lancet that essentially ranked us one hundred and seventy out of 180 countries in terms of our sustainability. And the quote that they had along with that was that it makes us one of the wealthy countries that threaten every child's future through climate change. So really right now where our children are staying home and they are really demonstrating so much love towards civilization. And our parents and grandparents, given that they're some of the least vulnerable to this disease, they're giving up a lot of school and they're giving up their activities as part of their love to take care of us. And so when we moved forwards, you know, we need to make sure that all of the actions that we're taking as part of our economic stimulus packages and our forward thinking planning helps us, takes us step by step along the path to the net zero by 2050 Canada that our kids need us to create for them to keep them safe.

MG: What do you mean by that specifically when it comes to the economic stimulus package? There's a lot of money that's going out the door and we'll continue to go out the door of governments to try and rebuild an economy that has evaporated in many ways.

COURTNEY HOWARD: Yeah. And so our society has been disrupted. It's already been disrupted. We never would have asked for that, but that's where we are right now. And so we now have the opportunity, kind of like a Lego set, that kind of, you know, had a toddler wander into it and then all the pieces flying. We now get to put that back together and we could be intentional about the way we do that. So essentially, we have a generational opportunity because I don't think we're going to get two sets of billions of dollars of stimulus packages. We now need to use that money to bring to life a vision of planetary health that can keep our kids safe. So, you know, we can invest in things like High-Speed Internet for rural and remote communities when my husband goes to Joe Haven. He doesn't even send me emails because it takes him an hour to fire up his email. So imagine the amount of innovation that we can catalyze and virtual enterprise and support for virtual care if we invest in high speed Internet. You know, we can invest in infrastructure to support zero emissions vehicles to build out of electric vehicle charging stations on highways across the country so that we can resume commerce but do it in a much more low emissions way. We can come up with programs to help people retrain and position them so that they're ready to thrive in the new economy because income is a determinant of health. We need to be taking care of that, too. But right now, we have this odd situation where we're also very occupied with activities of daily living, you know, trying to get our work done with our kid, building the Legos, sometimes in the corner, sometimes pestering us that it's easy to get distracted by the fact that from the fact that we are making generationally significant investments right now. So, you know, in hours or days, we need to actually be really letting our decision makers know that, you know, we need every step we take right now to be consistent with a low carbon future. So as you know, if you look at causes of future future crises, they will be related to climate. And I think we're realizing that crisis isn't very fun.

MG: I was just going to say that in that there is an announcement that will come at some point in time for what will be, I'm sure, billions of dollars for people in the oil and gas sector just south of you. You talked of being north of Edmonton, south of you in Alberta and Saskatchewan in particular. Can you make that investment if, as you say, this is a generation opportunity to rethink how you position yourself for a future that meaningfully addresses climate change?

COURTNEY HOWARD: I think we need to be really careful to differentiate between money that goes to support people and families so that they can, you know, pay their rent and keep food on the table and money that goes to giant multinational corporations that in many cases aren't even, you know, based in Canada.

MG: Even if those multi-national corporations are huge drivers of that local economy?

COURTNEY HOWARD: Well, you know, the World Economic Forum made a list of the biggest risk for crises facing us at this time. You know, right before COVID happened and almost all of them have to do with climate change. And so we have to ask us, what's important is what I'm seeing in the emergency department is that Canadians are tremendously anxious. So I'd say 75 percent of my presentations over the last couple of weeks have been anxiety, whether it's an anxiety related headache or an anxiety related stomach ache or anxiety itself. So people are scared. So imagine if we spend all of our money right now. And, you know, it's not going in a low carbon way. And we wake up in the middle of the summer and it's wildfire season and now we're immersed in smoke or there's a heat related emergency and people are dying because of that. And we think or so my goodness, we don't have anything left in the medicine covered here in terms of money to get ourselves to a safe and sustainable path. So I think we need to really set our sights on a vision of a stable, low carbon future and say, hey, we never would have chosen to be here, but this is where we are. And let's take a look at what that looks like and where we need to make our investments and how we need to invest in people to make sure that they thrive in that in that world. And step by step by step, start moving towards safety, because I think right now what we're at, we're we're we want safety. What I'm seeing from people is they want to know that tomorrow is going to be better than today and a healthy future is one that is low carbon.

MG: Doctor, stay safe. You're right there on the edge and as you say, you're waiting for something to arrive in your community and in your hospital. While you wait and if it arrives, I wish you the best. Thank you for joining us.

COURTNEY HOWARD: Yeah, thanks. We have a good team up here. And I just really want to thank Canadians. You know, your staying home is keeping you safe. It's keeping us safe. And just while you're there, please do what you can to stand on guard in terms of our future going forward, because Canada's health care workers are really pretty preoccupied with what's going on in the hospital right now and we need your help.

MG: Take care of yourself.

COURTNEY HOWARD: Thank you. Take care.

MG: Dr. Courtney Howard is an emergency physician in Yellowknife and the board president of the Canadian Association of Physicians for the Environment.

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'Did you try to do your own root canal?' Hair stylists recommend against quarantine cuts

Guests: Del Marie Brandt, Travis Battaglia

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. This past weekend, I pulled out my shiny new pivot motor combo adjustable blade clipper and got the motor running. It had become time to cut my hair and it's short now, shorter than it was, thanks to my very patient wife for taking care of that. Salons and barbershops have been shut to help slow the spread of COVID-19, and naturally there is no end of online videos on how perhaps you might go about cutting your own hair.

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HEATHER MCNAMARA: Hi there. Heather McNamara from beautiful Nova Scotia. And I'm just here in isolation and the days are turning into weeks and it's looking like it'll be months before I can step into a salon. My YouTube searches are turning into nothing but haircutting tutorials. My Pinterest pins are all DIY undercuts asymmetrical bob and how to layer your fine hair to get more volume. I'm at the point now that my hair's growing down my neck and given off strong mullet vibes. Like many other Canadians, I'm considering cutting my own bangs. Not sure if it's more boredom or curiosity at this point. So am I going to regret this DIY haircut or what? Is this gonna be another epic fail? I can chalk up to the COVID-19. Let's get started. Okay. Do I start this with wet or dry hair, since I'm going to be using a mix between scissors and clippers? I'm going to go at this dry first. I'm going to brush out my tangles. Put this in a high ponytail so I can get at the back of this neck. OK. Taking out the clippers now. This is actually pretty difficult. Oh, my lord. Help us. Hun, can you get in here and shave my neck? All right. So the back is nice and fresh. Bye-Bye, ,ullet. OK, now all my hair is still up in this ponytail, I'm going to comb down the bangs. And I know a trick people used to do in the past would be put a bowl right over your head. I mean, times are tough, but we do have the Internet now and it says online, if you're cutting your own fringe, don't press your hair down flat, because that's obviously giving you a false sense of length there. I'm actually going for short bangs. These might be a little more forgiving for all us beginner hairstylists. We're all being forced to become a year OK that doesn't look too bad. Oh, that is stressful though. Okay. Now for the final stage. Just taking the rest of my hair out of this elastic here. Can you just give me and a little trim? I'm just going to frame the face a little. Oh, my gosh, this is ridiculous. Oh, gosh. It's going to be shorter in the front than in the back. It's really hard to angle the scissors when you're looking in the mirror. OK. I might have to take the curling iron into this to make it look better. I'm pretty satisfied with this home cut, but I definitely miss my stylist.

MG: Sound familiar? If you want to see a photo of Heather McNamara's before and after pics, head to our Twitter feed @TheCurrentCBC. And if you're among those questioning your own hair, my next guests are here to help. Travis Battaglia is a stylist at Supernova Salon in North Vancouver. Del Marie Brandt owns Salon Paradise in Brampton. Good morning to you both.

DEL MARIE BRANDT: Good morning.

TRAVIS BATTAGLIA: Good morning.

MG: Some strong mullet vibes there from Heather, which led her to get the clippers out and the scissors. Travis, what is it like for you listening to Heather take matters into her own hands?

TRAVIS BATTAGLIA: That is a painful one. I know I've been getting a lot of questions and a few similar sounding videos from clients as they've been trying to correct their own hair. It's definitely been an adventure.

MG: What are you hearing from your client specifically? What are they asking you and what are they telling you about how it's worked out?

TRAVIS BATTAGLIA: A lot of people are bringing up the fact that they need to start doing their bang trim. They need stripping root colours, they need to set their hurst's getting unruly and unmanageable. But I think that we need to talk about solutions besides cutting and colouring your own hair. Styling and using different products, creating different looks.

MG: All right. We'll talk about solutions in a minute. Del, for you. What are you hearing from your clients?

DEL MARIE BRANDT: Oh, my goodness. If I said I thought the video was hilarious. My clients, well, I service the Black community. And it's a little different for us. So, you know, when you go in the shower and you come out, you don't come out with the same hair you went in with. So a lot are really getting frantic, like, what am I going to do? I had one send me a message last night, said, 'I think I'm ready to just shave my head.' I'm saying, 'please don't shave your head.' So, yeah, it's it's real, it's like, oh, my goodness. And how long is this going to be more? You know? More what they're dealing with now, it's like, OK, we can cope for another couple of weeks, but how long is this gonna go on?

MG: You've been in quarantine yourself?

DEL MARIE BRANDT: I have. I have. We travelled until we came back and so I actually haven't been in the salon for three weeks. So the week I left was the week we got the order to close down.

MG: What's it like for you to look in the mirror? How's your hair look?

DEL MARIE BRANDT: I haven't washed my hair since I left in three weeks because I don't even have a bottle of shampoo at home. So, yeah, tomorrow I'm heading straight to the salon. Right after my quarantine is over today.

MG: It sounds like a crisis situation for you.

DEL MARIE BRANDT: Crisis for me. So I can't imagine for my clients.

MG: In the grand scheme of things, Travis. I mean, this is this is a very serious health crisis. And you can imagine there are some people who say that, you know, managing your hair is the least of our concerns right now. How do you see this?

TRAVIS BATTAGLIA: That's a bit of a tough one, because hair has become an identity for so many people. And it's that thing that kind of makes us feel good about ourselves and especially times like these where not much is feeling great. So I understand that people do want to be feeling like they look their best if they can't feel their best.

MG: Should people cut their own hair Travis?

TRAVIS BATTAGLIA: I say absolutely no. As a stylist of15 years I have not taken clipper's to my own hair because as a professional, I just wouldn't do my own hair. So without any training, I don't think it's exactly the wisest idea.

MG: Del, what about for you or are you telling people, you know, if they have the clippers around that they can have a crack at it?

DEL MARIE BRANDT: Well, you know, like Travis, I mean, I completely agree with that. I've been doing hair for over 30 years and I've never cut my own hair. You know, I laugh all the time with people come and say, Yeah, I'm trying to perm my hair. I'm like, well did you try to do your own root canal? Like it's just everybody's a barber and a sylist.

MG: I haven't tried my own root canal. I did have my hair cut at home on the weekend. But that's a bit different than dentistry, I suppose. If somebody has like a short cut, like a fade, can they try and clean that up? Can they can line themselves up with the clippers?

DEL MARIE BRANDT: Well, like for example, my husband, he's been cutting his own hair for years, but I mean, he has a barbering background. You know, watching him do it, it's painful. So, I mean, there's some people are very, very crafty and very resourceful, but I wouldn't recommended for somebody for the first time.

MG: What are you telling your clients who might have extensions or a weave?

DEL MARIE BRANDT: Oh, my goodness. So thank goodness most of my clients probably have a wig somewhere. You know, take out that wig dusted off, you know, put a blow dryer on it, but really get creative with, you know, embrace in your own hair and just, you know, head to your sky. Head to your hat. Just stay away from touching the hair in any kind of way that you're going to regret.

MG: Travis, you see the cartoons that are going around where people are talking about, you know, please welcome a special guest. It's my natural hair colour, something that perhaps people haven't wanted to show off before. What should people do if they are thinking that they could touch up the roots?

TRAVIS BATTAGLIA: So when people are thinking about touching up their roots, I strongly urge against that. If I could put this into a bigger picture for every single person that does their hair at home, home colour, home cutting. That means that when we get back into the workforce, that's going to be a huge correction, which means that could take eight plus hours and a lot of money. That leaves us between one client today where if no one is touching their hair at home and we don't have to do corrections. We can service eight plus clients today and get everybody feeling like their absolute best as fast as possible. In the meantime, use things like hair, chalk, hair, makeup, coloured sprays, or just stay indoors in quarantine like we're supposed to do.

MG: What about bangs? We heard Heather there talking about trying to do the bangs and the bangs ended up a whole lot shorter than she expected. Should anyone touch the bangs right now?

TRAVIS BATTAGLIA: So I would highly recommend following what has been the latest trend: clips and barrettes doing some blow drying to create a nice side swept bang. I have just seen so many people come in for me to crack their bangs. And unfortunately, even if you're going for that long sleepy fringe that's been so popular right now, usually you'll end up with a baby bang trying to correct it and get it even.

MG: Some of the advice that goes around online is if you're going to do it, then don't decide you're going to try and fix it up the next morning because you'll end up having your hair even shorter than you expected. Is that good advice, Travis?

TRAVIS BATTAGLIA: You know, we've seen so many viral videos and memes and you're not going to be any different than the people that are trying to service themselves in those videos. And so the more that you try to correct something, sometimes the worse that it gets. And just remember that unfortunately, all the salons are closed right now. So if you do want to attempt it, just know that's something that you may have to live with for a little bit.

MG: But you said there are things that people could do that aren't involved, you know, cutting their own hair.

TRAVIS BATTAGLIA: Yes. So that goes back to a lot of styling. So I know a lot of people just like Del was saying that, you know out of shampoo. What do I do? So my great grandma actually gave me a styling book from 1967 on using things like hand lotion for styling, piece mail for using as a hair mask. By the way, at the Mayo hair mask. Make sure you watch your model tempter. Otherwise you burn out scrambled egg. But I do want to say double check with your so long because technology and science has come a long way and a lot of salons are providing curbside pickup that are safe safe. And you can get your products that way. Treat your hair in this time right now and let it get healthy again. So when you do come back in the salon, we can have a million different options working with the best quality hair.

MG: Del, what do you miss about the salon? I mean, in the community, the salon or the barber shop is an institution. It's more than a haircut, as they say.

DEL MARIE BRANDT: Well, it's exactly that. So for me, 30 years, I'm doing parents, grandparents, grandkids. And it's for me. I miss the conversations. I miss that getting together with everybody. You know, it's hard. It's hard to. It's a routine. I miss my co-workers. I miss my clients. I miss that conversations. I miss the getting together. Just having time. Like having those conversations that we look forward to having on a weekly basis.

MG: Do you worry about the future of your business?

DEL MARIE BRANDT: Very worried. I mean, I hear in the news a lot like you know we're talking about the restaurant industry, but I don't really hear a lot mentioning about our industry and It's quickly evaporating.

MG: What about you, Travis? Do you worry about uncertainty and the fact that you're not working and we're in this holding pattern?

TRAVIS BATTAGLIA: It's been very challenging. It's been about five weeks now that I've been out of work due to COVID. But once again, I think if we all really unite as people and if our clients wait for us as we're going to wait for them, I think that's going to be the strongest support that we can receive and to make sure that our industry isn't strongly impacted in a negative manner.

MG: Maybe a point of that unity can be that we all have unusual haircuts or unusual looks because we can't get to the salon. It's great to talk to you both. Good luck and thank you.

DEL MARIE BRANDT: Thank you.

TRAVIS BATTAGLIA: Thank you.

MG: Travis Battaglia is a stylist at Supernova Salon in North Vancouver. Del Marie Brandt owns Salon Paradise in Brampton. Coming up on The Current, we're going to measure the mood of an entire nation. We'll speak with a pollster about how Canadians are feeling these days about the virus, about quarantine and about each other. How are you feeling about cutting your own hair? You can let us know through the website, cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the Contact link. This is an extended edition of The Current. I'm Matt Galloway. We're back in about six minutes. Stay with us.

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10

How Canadians are feeling about COVID-19

Guests: Darrell Bricker

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, the end of Schitt's Creek, the sleeper hit of Canadian TV airs its final episode tonight on CBC. You'll hear Tom Power speak with a co-creator, Dan Levy, coming up. But first, we're going to talk about how we're feeling.

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MG: It is an emotional time for most Canadians and with every announcement, whether it's about new benefits or enforcement of social distancing, death tolls or more, those feelings can swing from panic to relief to determination to fatigue. Ipsos Public Affairs has been polling Canadians every week as this pandemic has developed, trying to get some insight into those emotions and attitudes. Darrell Bricker is the company's CEO. He's in Toronto. Darrell, good morning.

DARRELL BRICKER: Thanks for having me on, Matt.

MG: Thanks for joining us. We are several weeks into this with no real end in sight. When you speak with Canadians and hear from them, what do we tell you about what our biggest concerns are right now?

DARRELL BRICKER: Well, our biggest concerns are when this is eventually going to be over. I mean, there is a desire to see it end, but what we're finding now is that initially people were treating it like it was almost like a natural disaster, like it was a tornado or a flood or a hurricane or something that occurred, maybe an ice storm. So we're going to be a short, sharp problem, but we're going to get over it quickly. And what we're now seeing in the data is people are thinking this is going to go on for a longer period of time. So they're settling in.

MG: Settling in? We've seen that reflected. We had a conversation earlier this week with people in Italy and they talked about how the attitudes there have changed. What does settling in mean for Canadians?

DARRELL BRICKER: Well, it's the expectation that this is going to take some time, the expectation that it may even come back and they'll have to deal with this longer term, but also the the effects are going to go on for a while. So the concerns, particularly about their economic health are really paramount for Canadians.

MG: What are you hearing about that when it comes to because this is a health crisis and everybody knows that it starts as a health crisis, but there's an economic crisis that's attached to it now. What are you hearing from Canadians about that?

DARRELL BRICKER: Well, it's interesting when you ask them whether or not they personally fear whether or not they're going to get sick. Only about a third, just over 30 percent of Canadians say that they do fear that. So they know what's out there. They actually think it's good. It's more dangerous for other people than it is for them personally, the most part. But when you ask them about what the economic effects are, they're considerable. So you may not know anybody who's infected by Kovac, but you've certainly personally been affected by what's happening happening economically. So there's a there's a big element of that. That's really, I would say, dominating the concerns of Canadians right now.

MG: How does that breakdown according to age or geography?

DARRELL BRICKER: Everybody geographically is basically feeling the same way in terms of age. It's not as interesting as it is in terms of income. You would think that it's poorer people who are saying, you know, less affluent people who are saying they're most concerned about this. Actually, it's people who are more in the middle class zone. And that's the reason for that. And we often don't remember this, but a lot of people who are in those low income categories are actually seniors and they're on fixed incomes. And granted, they may not be as high as they want, but they're not aperol the way they are for people who are working in a middle class situation where they're now at home and they have big bills that they have to deal with. So it's actually the people who are in that middle category that are the most concerned.

MG: When, I don't know whether you ask this directly, but if people feel as though they're settling into this, do Canadians have a sense as to when this might be done?

DARRELL BRICKER: They really don't. And when we originally started asking this about six weeks ago, or maybe even a little longer ago than that, people were mostly thinking it was going to be over by June. But now that number is slipping. Less than half of us now think that. And they're looking further out probably through to the end of the summer, into the fall.

MG: Wow. And we've seen this week that Canadians can start applying for financial benefits. There's huge numbers of people who are applying for employment insurance. What are you learning about what people expect from the federal government right now?

DARRELL BRICKER: Well, they really don't know what to expect. I mean, they're basically listening to the rhetoric about having their back and they're making the assumption that that's actually going happen. So when you take a look at things, for example, like how is the government managing this crisis, the numbers are off the charts in terms of all the provincial governments and the federal government. They're up in the 70s and 80s. And as high as I've seen in a very, very long time, maybe even the highest I've ever seen. And so there are there's a lot of hope, there's a lot of expectations about what's going to be delivered. So over the next three or four weeks, we'll see whether or not the governments are actually able to live up to that. The other thing that you can roll in there is the degree of frustration that people are going to be feeling about whether or not staying home is actually to any benefit, because right now they're sort of iffy on that point. So it's the combination of being locked up, plus the potential for not actually having their incomes taken care of. That's a bit of a dangerous situation right now in terms of public opinion. So even while people are saying it's looking good and they know there's a lot of hope associated with what governments can do, there's potential for problems if there's no delivery.

MG: Is there a lot of support for I mean, we're seeing now further enforcement of things like physical distancing. There are fines that are being handed out. People are being actively told by a bylaw officers by police that they can't be congregating in parks and, you know, along the shorefront, what have you. Is there support for that?

DARRELL BRICKER: Right now there is and it's interesting, it's because they feel that other people are not doing what needs to be done, rather than they're not doing what needs to be done. So it's like we've got to stop this and that means all of you other people have to get your act together, because I'm doing what's right. They don't understand that some of the things that they may necessarily be doing her a problem. But the other thing that's really interesting that is they don't necessarily believe it will be effective. So when you go and you ask people, is this because, you know, our public health activities are failing or because these are more like random events and they're very hard to control, it's pretty much split. So people think that we should be giving it a try, but they don't know that it will necessarily be effective.

MG: Part of these measures have led to concerns when it comes to how much people would be giving up in terms of civil liberties in a situation like this, that the you know, the interests of the greater good are more important than the rights of individuals. Do you have data on that?

DARRELL BRICKER: Yeah, at the moment, people aren't feeling that way. There's, you know, people who are always concerned about these things that continue to be concerned about them. But the vast majority of Canadians right now are supporting the public health strategies of the governments of adopted and they're prepared to comply.

MG: What's at stake for the governments at place here? I mean, this is not a political issue. We've seen that from opposition parties who have said that they are trying to work together with the government. Everyone is on the same page. This is a whole of Canada approach. But what is at stake for governments, not just the federal government, but governments across the province as this continues?

DARRELL BRICKER: Well, this is something that people believe, governments, particularly in Canada. People believe that governments were built for. This is what they do. So when you run into this tragic type of circumstance, it's the government that we turn to to solve these problems. If the government delivers on that, then I think support will continue to to be strong. But if we start to see cracks forming or, you know, things not living up to the expectations that have been set, set for governments, particularly as we're locked down and we can't do anything to help ourselves, then you could start having some problems that opposition parties at some point might take advantage of.

MG: And part of this goes back to if you said that, you know, so at 70 percent or so are concerned about economic prosperity, about losing their jobs for the Liberals who find themselves governing in a minority situation, what's at stake for for them in terms of addressing those concerns, in terms of making sure that people feel as though the packages of support that are going out the door are going to help them?

DARRELL BRICKER: Well, what's really at stake is they're the people who are on the frontlines talking every day. They have a press conference every day about what it is that they're going to be doing. They've used the rhetoric about having people's backs. At some point, the government's going to be evaluated on that. So it's not in terms of hope, it's in terms of delivery and any government that's made those types of commitments. If they can't deliver on them, probably we'll be judged pretty harshly. If we're not, I don't think there's going to be any free passes here. I don't think people are going to say, well, you know, best efforts or best tries are good enough. I think the stakes are high enough that some of the judgement that might come out of this, if it's not delivered upon, could be harsh.

MG: The cliche is that we're all in this together and we've seen evidence of that, whether it's people out cheering on health care workers at night, whether it's people looking in on each other, helping each other out. How much time are people spending worrying about each other?

DARRELL BRICKER: Well, they are we're spending a fair amount of time. So when you ask, go ask people in a series of statements, what are you most concerned about here? The thing that they're most concerned about in Canada is the effect of this virus on others, particularly people who are vulnerable in society. So that's the number one concern. Their number two concern is how is this going to affect my prosperity? How is my economic situation going to be affected negatively by what's going on? So they tend to be preoccupied by that. One of the other things that's really an interesting finding in the data is that there are always people who are a bit, you know, Susie Sunshine on these kinds of things where they always try to find a silver lining of the cloud, which is, oh, we're getting to spend more time with our families. We're going to do things with our kids. And we're trying things that we should have been trying a long time ago to get to maybe even learning to play a musical instrument. Most people say that. Yeah, that's that's that's kind of interesting. But I just want to get the hell out of my house. I just want to go out and experience the life that I had previously.

MG: And so as this drags on then, what are you going to be looking at in the coming weeks? What are the numbers that you think and the information you think will be most important?

DARRELL BRICKER: I think public from a public opinion perspective, we've we've got a pretty good sense now of how we go into this. What we don't have a sense of is how we come out of this. So what what are those tipping points that we're going? See in the future where people will say it's okay to to book a flight, now I'm thinking of going on a vacation. It's okay to go back to a restaurant. It's OK to start thinking about the world in whatever the next version of the world is going to be for the next while will probably be some sort of a twilight zone in which there are things that are going to be acceptable and things that are going to be acceptable. Getting some measurement of how people feel within the context of that twilight zone and as they move into the next stage or whatever this is going to be, I think it's going to be critical.

MG: Darrell, perhaps we'll talk again. In the meantime, thank you.

DARRELL BRICKER: I look forward to it Matt. Thank you.

MG: Darrell Bricker is the CEO of the polling firm Ipsos Public Affairs. It's been polling Canadians about the coronavirus and how we're doing as a nation in the midst of it. He is in Toronto.

11

Tom Power in conversation with Dan Levy and Julia Ogina

Guests: Tom Power, Dan Levy, Julia Ogina

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. Tom Power is the host of a radio program called Q. Tom, hello.

TOM POWER: Matt, if I was to vote in the coronavirus poll, you know what I'd vote.

MG: What?

TOM POWER: Not a fan of it.

MG: You're not a fan of the coronavirus?

TOM POWER: No, not a fan of it. You know what? I can't imagine anyone would vote pro.

MG: We've been talking about cutting your own hair. Have you been cutting your hair at home, Tom?

TOM POWER: No, just my sanity, Matt. And my hours exercising. I've been spending a lot of time watching television, and I started to binge for the first time after hearing it was so good, the as, can I say Schitt's Creek?

MG: You just did.

TOM POWER: The CBC show Schitt's Creek, which is coming to an end tonight.

MG: It's a great show.

TOM POWER: Oh God, it's pretty good. I didn't know what to expect and I kind of thought it wasn't gonna be that great. Turns out, so much heart, so much joy. It's absolutely beautiful. I got to talk to Dan Levy, who's the writer and the star and the creator of the show. And we talked about how the kindness and the respect shines above everything else, even the comedy. Here's our conversation.

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TOM POWER: Before we get going with everybody else, how are you doing? How are you holding up?

DAN LEVY: You know, I feel like I have a roof over my head and I have groceries in my fridge. So I am, I cannot complain through this whole process. It's really sobering to to think about and really scary and disorienting and it's hard. I feel like this is the first time that any of us have dealt with anything of this magnitude. So I almost feel like our human brains are having this like. Short circuit where we can't possibly fathom that the magnitude of it and the breadth of kind of sadness and tragedy. And I think that's why it comes in waves. I read this really interesting article about how this feeling that we all seem to share, which is this sort of neung sense of dread is actually grief. And that what we're feeling is a kind of grief for others, grief for the planet. Grief for ourselves. Grief for the fear that we might not be able to have the kind of freedoms that we've had before. And it was really kind of an enlightening read. I've been reading so much, I try to read as many sort of constructive articles and essays as I possibly can instead of. Spending all my time on the news because I feel like that's kind of a downward spiral that will just leave you shaken and alone.

TOM POWER: I think one thing that seems to be coming out of this, at least from what I can see, is, you know, I've never seen so many people try to help in my entire life. Now, maybe if you were in a maybe if you were in a place where a disaster happens, there's people that's trying to help here, but like a global initiative of just everybody, like you me, like my neighbours.Everyone's just trying to help. Staying inside is helping. I know you've been doing stuff for the food bank, right?

DAN LEVY: Yeah, Food Banks Canada and Feeding America. We've done sort of a joint fundraising initiative to raise money for them. Our goal was $100,000 and we're already at $56,000 after like less than 24 hours. So it's just a it's a beautiful reminder that in darkness there is light, so to speak, and that people are wanting to help in any way possible. And, you know, it's a tough time to be asking for donations from people because people are losing their jobs. So, you know, for us, it was really about give what you can and if you can't give anything, then just tune in while we, you know, have our little Q and A's. And and that's basically what the initiative was every night at 8:00 p.m.. I'm a member of our cast is going to do something on Instagram live. And if you tune in, hopefully you might consider donating or or, you know, if you can't donate, consider it. You know, half an hour of your day where you're where we're keeping each other company. So I was stunned by just the excitement and people's ability to to. Give. And it's always quite moving to be in such strange and precarious times and be reassured that, you know, there's there's a lot of goodness out there.

TOM POWER: You know, as Schitt's Creek is coming to an end, I should mention this piece we're doing right now is airing on the night of the finale. It's an interesting sort of duality because in some ways you've already done it. Like you've you've written it, you've acted in it, you've locked it. It's done. You had to go through those moments. But I'm wondering like what comes up now that we get to see it, that it's actually sort of going out? It's actually, the end is actually happening.

DAN LEVY: Yeah. I mean, I've been very emotional through the whole thing. I think just because I have such an intimacy with with all of it. And I have, you know, such in my I've been involved in every aspect of it for so long that I think just the the amount of pride and joy that I have in the project, in our cast, in our crew, saying goodbye to them was one thing. Then editing the episodes and saying goodbye to those episodes as we would lock them was another thing. And I really didn't think I would be quite as emotional as I've been over these last few weeks watching the last episodes. But there's something to be said about watching episodes. Watching the show wrap itself up and also simultaneously getting to see the fan interactions as these episodes air. And I think for me this last with this last season, I never really wrote for our fans and I tried not to take their expectations, you know, into the writers room because I feel like the minute a show starts being aware of its fan base, it loses its own sense of self. So this last season was really the the first time that I had to take fan expectations and into mine because the last season of a show, I think inherently. Is for the fans, you are wrapping up characters, you need to at least have an understanding of fan expectations so that you can decide how, when and where you touch upon those expectations. Do you give them exactly what they want? Or do you give them a version of what they want? So I've been very nervous this season just to see whether the the viewers have responded in the way that I hoped they would to these episodes. And fortunately they have. And, you know, I think it's very overwhelming in a way, because the show has never been more successful and it's never been about me. I think what moves me the most is just seeing how this little show out of Canada that has been made, you know, by one hundred and forty seven Canadians with a completely Canadian cast, less Chris Elliott, has managed to make its way onto the cover of Variety this week. It's quite emotional because the pride that I have is so rooted in in just where we came from and how small the show was and just how excited I am that our actors are seeing the kind of success that they're seeing that our crew members are proud of the work that they've done and that they're excited to see that the show that they've been working on has far surpassed people's expectations. And just the whole journey has been really emotional. So to have this all sort of reach its peak, just as our last episode is airing has been overwhelming, to say the least.

TOM POWER: What's the hardest part personally about saying goodbye to this thing?

DAN LEVY: I don't like change. If I had a warehouse to just keep everything I've ever been given, I would just put it all away. I don't like to let go of things. So this has really been a lesson in letting go and deciding to end the show. When we did when we didn't have to was a really difficult decision to make, too, because, you know, we could have kept going for four years. Our networks wanted us to keep going. But it really came down to a respect for the storytelling and our characters and our audience, because I don't love when a show that I watch week after week sort of overextend its welcome. And you sort of get to a point where you realise, oh, we've gone from the vision of the, you know, the storyteller to. The business side of television, which is let's just keep it going for as long as we can. And the quality of the storytelling gets a bit diluted. And, you know, people look a bit tyred because the characters are sort of stuck in a rut. I never wanted that to be the case for the show. I wanted us to end on a high. And I do feel like the idea of legacy is so important in television too because all of the shows that I love are shows that ended with people wanting more. And those are the shows that I go back to, I never go back to the shows where I sort of dropped off. So I wanted the show to sit on a shelf with those shows that I've long admired that I go back to and I do feel like this season has been our best and that the episode that's airing tonight is, I think, my favourite episode we've ever done. So hopefully people like it.

TOM POWER: I'm sure they will. How do you help people? I mean, it's just an amazing, heartfelt show. I mean, if you look at like even just the wedding that's kind of happening tonight, there's so much heart, there's so much love. It's such a nuanced program. You know, what do you hope people remember from Schitt's Creek?

DAN LEVY: I hope people remember the way that it made them feel. I think part of the success of the show has been that we came out just as politics shifted in a really major way in America, and I think that reverberated into Canada as well. I think since he has been elected, there's this there's been a dark cloud over a lot of people. And to put a show out there about a town where people feel safe to be, who they are, where acceptance is key, where bigotry is not part of the equation, where ultimately any conflict is resolved in a thoughtful and meaningful and respectful way. It was hard to write that because that can really lend itself to a bit of like saccharine storytelling. So the challenge was always how do we tell kind hearted, well-intentioned stories in a comedy and still keep the edge? And a lot of that is that is, you know, a credit to the cast and just how beautifully they've managed to balance the humour, being really skilled at the comedy, while at the same time being very delicate and and cautious and thoughtful about their choices when it came to the more sentimental moments as well. And I think people have really been tuning into the show as an escape from their reality. And it's interesting that our last episode is airing in the height of a global pandemic where people are at home and scared because I do feel like this last episode is just a warm hug. So, you know, as strange as it is, you know, there were plans to sort of go on talk shows and promote the last episode and do all this stuff. And to me, this is far more meaningful than anything we would have done from a promotional standpoint, raising money for good causes in the midst of all of this and then, you know, having people in their homes really paying attention to things and to get to have this episode hopefully be a kind of hug for people in a really strange and precarious time. You know, it's a wonderful thing.

TOM POWER: Dan, congratulations on your show. It's I can't think of anything like it in Canada ever. So I hope you're very proud. I know you are and congratulations on it.

DAN LEVY: Thank you very much.

MG: Tom Power speaking with Dan Levy, creator and star of Schitt's Creek. Tonight is the series finale on CBC. And Tom will be back a little bit later on in the program. It's time to say goodbye to our listeners in Newfoundland and Labrador. The show Cross-talk is up next. Have yourself a great day. Everyone else, hang tight. Coming up after the CBC News, we'll speak about how this virus has jumped from animals to humans and back again. Try and explain the science behind that when we return in about 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. This is an extended edition of The Current on CBC Radio One. Stick around.

[Music]

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound of beatboxing]

MG: It's The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. Tom Power from Q is back.Tom?

TOM POWER: Matt, how are you?

MG: Well, I was thinking just listening to that little bit of music, maybe that's what I'll do in my quarantine time. The free time that I have is learn how to beatbox.

TOM POWER: You know what? If you want to do that, if you wanted to show how you're doing that on Instagram live, I think you'd go viral, buddy. I think you'd be a TikTok superstar.

MG: 11 viewers. There are currently 11 viewers watching you now. You're going to speak about something that has many, many, many more viewers than something like that would generate.

TOM POWER: I am so excited to tell you about this. This is maybe my favourite story that's come out of this awful time. Julia Ogina has been taking part in a new Nunavut drum dance every Tuesday for more than a decade in Cambridge Bay. Obviously in physical distancingthey're unable to get together. So they've had to find a new way to sing and dance together. So Julia has been hosting their drum dance over Facebook Live every Tuesday. Anyone can join in with the help of song sheets. Some she delivers and hangs on people's doors in advance. I love talking to Julia. I love catching up on how things are going in Cambridge Bay and hearing this amazing story. Take a listen to this.

SOUNDCLIP

TOM POWER: Julia, thanks for being here.

JULIA OGINA: Thank you. My pleasure.

TOM POWER: How are things in Cambridge Bay?

JULIA OGINA: Pretty good. I must say, I'm pretty proud of our community for coming together and following the guidelines that have been placed on us for social isolation and physical distancing. It's nice to see that, you know, the communities are understanding ,but still need to connect..

TOM POWER: It's so hard, you know, in a small community that's maybe used to spending more time together, you know?

JULIA OGINA: We're so used to the physical side of connections, the emotional side of our connection and through physical gatherings and visiting and sharing meals and doing things together like hunting or sewing or preparing food or teaching and sharing knowledge and just sharing each other's company. We're so connected as Inuit, as people that way and having this illness affect that has really put you know our creativeness us Inuit peoples to find ways to connect and stay connected.

TOM POWER: I know. And one of the ways that you've done this is through Facebook Live. Tell me a little bit about what you've been doing on Facebook Live.

JULIA OGINA: I started singing. I always sing. I'm a singer and I started singing Facebook Live one day. Little did I know people started connecting and watching and giving me thumbs up and they're saying that they're listening or following along. And my mum, who lives in another community, an elder, she has Facebook, she joined. She doesn't know how to do thumbs up, but I knew she was singing along with them because she loves the sing just as much as I do. And that's how we started. I saw that many people connecting and I thought our dance school. We usually practice. We usually drum dance and sing and share stories and connect with each other. So I decided maybe I'll reach out to them and see, say, how many of them are on Facebook and how many are my friends on Facebook and majority of them are. And that's how we started connecting. We decided my husband would drum dance and my granddaughter and I would sing. Show the songs that we were singing, the lyrics and then I would show the video of him dancing with my granddaughter singing. And there were so many people that first night. So we decided we're going to do another.

TOM POWER: How did it feel compared to your normal drum dance group when you're all together?

JULIA OGINA: I have to be honest, I miss the physical being together and being able to see their reactions to how they feel when they dance, how they feel when they sing. How when someone has a burst of energy in that moment or oh, I understand this. Oh, I can do this. But then seeing people connecting with us on Facebook Live and giving thumbs up or showing hearts or writing messages as we sing, it made me feel like as if all were somewhat whole again together.

TOM POWER: I know these drum dances tell stories. What stories are you telling in tonight's drum?

JULIA OGINA: The first song we're going to start off is the healing song and it's of a fellow who ended up in the sanitarium for TB in his young life. He spent nine years in the hospital and he realized he said, you know, he's not going to be home for another long time. He doesn't know when he's going home and the more time passes, he starts to feel like maybe this is where I'm going to remain for the rest of my life. And he started to lose hope of getting home. So in his dream, this elder comes to him and he's humming a tune and she disappears and he wakes up from his dream, thinking of this dream and wondering what it meant. And humps a tune. But as time passes and she comes back and she starts to tell him in to create a song in order for him to get well and go back home, and when wakes up again, he's thinking of her. It's the same lady, and he's stumped as to what story, how he's going to create a song. And some time passes and he's tried and he doesn't come up with a song. Time passes some more and she reappeared and told him, think of all the animals you've caught in your young life and the family you have. The family that's been with you. Create a story around that. So as time passed after he created his song and that's the song that we'll be singing. He calls it his healing song. Not long after he creates his song, he's told that he's going home to his family.

TOM POWER: Julia, thank you so much for talking to us. My deepest love and all my thoughts to you and everybody in Cambridge Bay right now.

JULIA OGINA: Thank you. And also mine too, from the north to everybody listening out there, we can do with this. Wash your hands and stay isolated. Look after one another.

MG: That's Tom Power speaking with Julia Ogina. And that's our show for today. And we'll leave you with "Huqqullaaqatigiit's Healing Song" recorded at the grand opening of the Canadian High Arctic Research Station. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current and take care.

SOUNDCLIP

[Clip of Huqqullaaqatigiit's Healing Song recorded at the grand opening of The Canadian High Arctic Research Station]

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Apr. 7, 2020 episode transcript

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