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The AIH Transcript for April 2, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

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CH: Tonight:

CO: From zero to hundreds. Detroit is now on track to become America's next COVID-19 hot spot. We reach a doctor who is overseeing eight of the city's hospitals who says the city may need help from Canadian nurses.

CH: Full house. A Manitoba couple gets out of Ukraine in the midst of the coronavirus clampdown with their eight newly adopted children. Now they're back home in isolation and adjusting to life as a family of 13.

CO: Police are starting to crack down on non-essential travel between Ontario and Quebec. We reached the Mayor of Gatineau who says fighting the pandemic is more important than opening cottages.

CH: Hotel California. A Golden State entrepreneur has come up with a plan to beat the isolation blues and exclusive escape community where Californians can pay to ride out the virus together.

CO: Boy meets squirrel. On tonight's trip to our archives, an Arizona pool guy tells us about bringing a waterlogged rodent back to life, one compression over time.

CH: And we all hope cooler heads will prevail right now. And I think we can all agree that no head is cooler than a disproportionately large one that's prone to a gentle nodding motion -- as the Bobblehead Hall of Fame welcomes its newest inductees, we revisit our conversation with the founder of that illustrious institution. As It Happens. The Thursday Edition. Radio that supports all forms of -- action.

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Part 1: Detroit Hospitals

Detroit Hospitals

Guest: Tina Chopra

CH: About three weeks ago, there were no known cases of COVID-19 in Detroit. Today, the city is on pace to become the next hot spot in the United States. There are nearly 2900 confirmed cases in Detroit -- a city of just 670000 people. And at a news conference this afternoon, Mayor Mike Duggan said those numbers are hugely troubling.

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MIKE DUGGAN: We're at a point now where we know, we all know, people who have been affected by this disease. Our drive-thru testing site is going to be a huge part of this strategy. People need to know whether they have this disease. And we're doing 500 or 600 tests a day. And we got the numbers in from the first two days testing -- the first 500 cases -- 43 percent of the people we tested, tested positive. That's a pretty troubling number. And so we don't know yet whether the sickest people were the first 500 who came through or whether this disease has spread so far that 43 percent of the folks being tested have it. But all of these numbers continue to go in a more difficult direction.

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CH: Detroit Mayor Mike Duggan speaking today. Dr. Tina Chopra is an infectious disease specialist and a medical director at the Detroit Medical Centre, where she's working with coronavirus patients. We reached Dr. Chopra in Detroit.

CO: Dr. Chopra, can you give us a snapshot of what the situation is in your hospital network right now?

TINA CHOPRA: Sure. You know, Detroit is pretty much exploding right now. The cases are increasing at an alarming rate. All the hospitals are overcrowded and overburdened at this time. We are struggling with making sure that we have a good process with triage patients. Our priority is to give them quality care and also to make sure we keep our employees safe.

CO: When you say give them quality care, that of course, can be limited as we're hearing from other places by what is available to you in order to help those people. Do you have what you need in order to deal with what you're anticipating?

TC: At this time, we have what we need and we are following all the protocols and procedures that we have been preparing all this time. We've been preparing for this for a long time. And we've had backup plans and backup to backup plans in Case B come to this situation. And we are making sure that we leave no stone unturned. DMC is doing an amazing job and so is Wayne State in collaboration. And we are trying to make sure that we also take care of our community around the hospital and test them through Wayne State mobile clinics, which have done an amazing job in testing first line responders and employees who have symptoms and also our community in the nursing homes as well as shelters.

CO: We know of what we saw in New York and of course we saw in Italy was that things can ramp up very quickly. What exactly are you anticipating in Detroit?

TC: Yes, we saw from experiences in Italy and New York, and we are expecting very similar situation as in New York. I think Detroit has such a high risk population. As I've always said, you know, I know my people very well. I've worked with them for 15 years. They are like family. And Detroit population is unique in the sense that they have these high risk morbidities, including diabetes, hypertension, obesity, CHF -- which is heart failure. And all of these high risk features, along with being socially disadvantaged, puts them at a higher risk. And this is why we are going to need more resources. I would say three times more resources that we currently have in the form of not only more beds, but more staffing. You know, we do need help with more nurses. We need help with more physicians stepping up. Retired physician stepping up and helping us taking care of some of these patients or can be stepped down to step down units or like the Cobo Centre or other areas where we can transport some of these patients and in days to come.

CO: And where can you possibly get that extra personnel -- doctors and nurses? We've seen in New York where they've called out of state people to come. We know that you're right across the border from Windsor, Ontario. Many people actually live in Windsor and work in Detroit. Will you be putting out a call to Canadian nurses and doctors?

TC: That's a great question. I think the state is doing everything possible to help us and so is DMC -- DMC leadership is doing an amazing job in helping so that everybody understands that Detroit is underprivileged and under-resourced, and we are going to need twice as much resources than other places around.

CO: When you say DMC, we'll just remind people that's the Detroit Medical Centre -- that's a group of hospitals that you need to help to administer. Have you heard back? Are there Canadian nurses and doctors who are anticipating or have responded to your call?

TC: We are receiving responses. But we don't have any confirmations at this time, but we would in the days to come. There is a lot of movement and positive movement in that direction.

CO: You have, as you mentioned, a vulnerable community. It's known that a third of people in Detroit live in poverty. How does that compound the problem you're facing in Detroit?

TC: You know, social determinants of health in general if you forget about the COVID situation, but even in other kinds of situations that whether we have flu or whether we have any other infections in our community, 36 percent of our population is below the poverty line. There is lack of transportation. There is low literacy rates. There is lack of clean water supply. All of these things are going to affect patients getting more infections. And this is a virus we are talking about which has a reproductively shelf anywhere between two to three and a high mortality. So it's like putting oil to the fire. That's the situation that we have here in Detroit. And we need more resources so we can help our community and we can save lives.

CO: Are you getting any sense that you'll get those resources? We have seen that Washington is planning a lot of what goes where. Some states seem to be treated more favourably than others. Do you have any sense that your governor and your city will be able to gather its fair share of those supplies?

TC: We always see hope. And hope sustains life. And also, I think there is light at the end of the tunnel with all day let's made by our governor and our Mayor of Detroit. Also, DMC leadership is doing an amazing job in collaboration with Wayne State and trying to not only help the hospital and triage patients, but also help the community and making sure that we can try to contain and mitigate this curve and flatten the curve by trying to test as much as community population as possible.

CO: Dr. Chopra, I hope you get what you need for what you're facing in the coming weeks and months. And thank you for speaking with us.

TC: Thank you very much.

CH: Dr. Tina Chopra oversees all eight hospitals in the Detroit Medical Centre network. She's also a professor of infectious diseases at Wayne State University. We reached her in Detroit. And you can find out more about the story at: cbc.ca/aih.

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ON/QC Border

Guest: Maxime Pedneaud-Jobin

CH: Quebec is now policing the border between Ottawa and Gatineau. Yesterday, the province announced that it was adding western Quebec's Outaouais region to its list of places where non-essential travel is banned. So far, the police say they're just going to operate sporadic checkpoints to discourage unnecessary trips. But nearly a million people live and work in the national capital region, and they're used to treating it like a single place. Maxime Pedneaud-Jobin is the Mayor of Gatineau. We reached him there.

CO: Mayor Pedneaud-Jobin, if I tried to drive across one of the bridges between Ottawa and Quebec tonight, who will decide whether I have a good enough reason to do so?

MAXIME PEDNEAUD-JOBIN: Police officers that are doing random checkpoints, but I insist on random. They're not asking questions to everybody. The goal is to raise awareness on the need to limit travel to essential travels.

CO: Okay. Just tell us what we might see. For people who haven't seen the images or haven't been there, what would you encounter? What would one encounter at those bridges tonight?

MAXIME PEDNEAUD-JOBIN: Well, first, very little traffic. People, I think, understood the message already. So there are police officers at a certain number of areas around bridges for a couple of days. But they're going to move all across Gatineau and all across the Outaouais region. And they'll stop some cars and ask people where they are going and if their travel is essential. Yesterday, they stopped quite a few cars and they sent back little more than 200 people. And I think it's good. I think it's a good measure. It's a good action to make sure we convince people that this is serious and they they should stay home if they don't have a very valid reason to move.

CO: Okay. So what are the rules? What would the police officer consider essential travel then?

MAXIME PEDNEAUD-JOBIN: If you go help your parents, if you have to work in Ottawa or work in Gatineau -- they're fairly generous in their interpretation. But if you go shopping on one side instead of on the other side, then stay on your side -- try to limit their travels.

CO: If you live in Ontario and you have a property in Quebec, can you not go to that?

MAXIME PEDNEAUD-JOBIN: Everybody will use their judgment. And we ask citizens to use their judgment as well. So the answer could be yes. If you go to the cottage to move there for a month, it's fine. If you go every second day to pick up stuff, you stop at the grocery store, you stop at the gas station -- that's a non essential, and that's actually unsafe. So that would be the kind of conversation that a police officer would have with the citizen.

CO: It's up to the discretion of the officer at that -- I don't want to call it a checkpoint -- but at that stop.

MAXIME PEDNEAUD-JOBIN: Yeah.

CO: Well, is it possible that one police officer can be overzealous and the next one could be generous and relaxed? I mean, is that a possibility?

MAXIME PEDNEAUD-JOBIN: It could be. But they talk to each other. They try to adapt. And as someone said, we are in a plane and we are building it as we fly. Like nobody has been through a crisis like that. And we can try to have an interpretation that is perfect from one police officer to the other. But the main goal is to save lives and to protect people. When I look at what's happening in Spain and in Italy, decisions that were taken in many countries that are way tougher than what we're doing today, I think we're on the right track. And if everybody uses their judgment, I think we're going to save lives.

CO: It's interesting you say that because that's been a big criticism of policies that they seem to be always a few days behind or a week behind. And the week later, it seems, why didn't we do that a week ago? So given that you feel this is necessary, why not close more of the cross points between Ontario and Quebec then?

MAXIME PEDNEAUD-JOBIN: Well, our partners in Ottawa do not make the same judgment on this issue. We have some disagreement. That's the first point. Second is that this border -- like hundreds of people in Quebec work in Ontario, in the health care system, hundreds of Ontarians work in Quebec's health care system. So closing the border wouldn't be in anybody's interest. So that's out of the question. It could be stricter. I think the first step we took is a good step. It's nuanced. So I think that's good for now. But I wouldn't be surprised if we go further.

CO: Also then it's open to -- well, if there's room for interpretation on the part of the police, there's always that fear with civil liberties that it leaves room for police harassment. Does that concern you?

MAXIME PEDNEAUD-JOBIN: Of course. We have to to be careful. But we have to weigh the advantages and disadvantages. And again, when I look at what's going on in Europe and the decisions that were taken by governments sometimes way too late -- we're in a free democratic country where news reporters can do their job, we're checked by a lot of people, and I think it's good. So I'm not afraid that if there are exaggerations, we'll be able to stop that quickly. But it's the second day and not even one ticket was given yesterday and today. So I think we all understand that it's a strong message. It's awareness. It's serious. We want to save lives. And I think people are okay with it. But in all cases, we have to look at each other's actions and judge each other and adapt.

CO: And what's the penalty? You have fines you can hand out, what would it be?

MAXIME PEDNEAUD-JOBIN: It starts at $1000. And it can go as high as $6000.

CO: And just finally, because I know that cycling is a big part of that connection between those two sides of the border, lots of people go by bike. Are they being stopped too?

MAXIME PEDNEAUD-JOBIN: Yeah. Anybody who's travelling can be stopped.

CO: All right. Mayor Pedneaud-Jobin, we'll leave it there. Thank you.

MAXIME PEDNEAUD-JOBIN: Thank you very much.

CH: Maxime Pedneaud-Jobin is the Mayor of Gatineau, Quebec.

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From Our Archives: Squirrel CPR

CH: Given the dystopia we're living in this year, April Fools was a no go. So last night we decided to look back at past April Fools on this program and apparently we made the right decision.

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MICHELLE HOOLIHAN: Hi. My name is Michelle Hoolihan. I'm from Lake Country, British Columbia. And I've been quarantine in a camper for 13 days. I get let loose tomorrow. [Chuckles] I just laugh so hard. I was laughing out loud and this little camper was just rocking. I was laughing so loud, especially about, the weighted kilt. Anyways, I'm still laughing. Got a visual on that. Thanks very much for the great laugh. Really treasured it. This is an April Fool's joke. I really love CBC Radio. It's been a good companion for the last 13 days in this little camper. I am very grateful for all of you. That's As It Happens. [Laughs] From my little world. Bye for now.

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CH: Thanks for calling, Michelle. Thanks to everyone who's been getting in touch to request interviews from the past. You can do that by emailing aih@cbc.ca -- or finding us on Twitter @CBCAsItHappens, or by calling Talkback: 416-205-5687. Today's story from the archives reminds us that real life is not like the movies. In movies, the hero hauls an unconscious secondary character out of the water and does CPR while shouting,"Come on, dammit!" Then the secondary character spits out some water and coughs and everyone applauds. Next, a passionate kiss. It didn't always go like that for Rick Gruber. He did save a secondary character from drowning. The character did spit water and cough, but there was no smooching. And that's fine because he'd rescued a squirrel. A listener named Tess Dornfeld wrote in about this one, referring to a story we re-aired last week. She said, "You can't tease us with the chicken CPR and not bring out the squirrels CPR too." Well, Tess we're bringing out the squirrel CPR. From 2014, here's Phenix, Arizona, pool repairman Rick Gruber talking to Carol about saving a squirrel's life.

CO: Rick, what were you doing when you realized that some creature was in distress?

RICK GRUBER: Well, I was working on the pool at the house and I was installing a pool heater. And when I was working on the heater I heard splashing and stuff in the background and I thought something must be in the pool I didn’t know if it was an animal or a person or something, so I looked over the fence and I saw a little ground squirrel in the pool and he was struggling to keep his head above water.

CO: Yikes! So when did you realize that this girl is not going to get himself out?

RG: Well, I knew right away he wouldn't be able to get himself out because there's nothing for him to grab onto to climb out. So I thought well I'll run back over to my truck and get a piece of PVC or a pole or something and I'll try and fish him out and get him out of the pool so he can go on his way. So I walk out to the front of the house and by the time I got back he was already under water his head was down and his little butt was sticking up in the here and he wasn't breathing or moving or anything. So I thought great, I lost him! So I jumped over the fence and I fished him out. I kept thinking to myself, he's only been there for a minute or so. Let me go ahead and see if by some strange chance I could probably give him CPR or something and bring him back to life.

CO: Give him CPR?

RG: Yeah.

CO: Have you ever given any animal -- human or otherwise -- CPR before?

RG: Fortunately, I haven't had a chance to go because I haven't been put in that position. I did do it on a practice dummy back when I first aid training years ago. But, you know, since then, I haven't had the opportunity to try it. This was actually my first experience.

CO: Well, what exactly did you do to help this squirrel recover? What was your CPR treatment?

RG: Just basically pushing on his chest and squeezing his sides to try and get some breaths back in him so he could get going on his own again. So I was kind of in gentle, but firm with him. And I just kept on going until his whole body twitched. And then once his whole body twitched I had a feeling I thought wow he's actually starting to take a breath. I went this is pretty cool I think I might just resuscitate this grounds squirrel. So I grabbed my phone out of my pocket, started recording it, and then I recorded it from then on until his full recovery.

CO: Now I've seen the video and you're talking to him at the same time.

RG: Yeah. I'm talking to him. I know he's probably not understanding what I'm saying but, you know, just trying to be as calm and soothing as I can to him. So that way he doesn't feel, you know, scared or threatened when he woke up. And one of my bigger fears was he was going to wake up startled real fast and reach around and bite me or, you know, scratch me or something like that. And I've heard that, you know, rodents like that can carry different types of diseases, rabies, whatever. So I was like, well, I don't want to get too close to him. I don't want to get a scratch by him. I just have to be careful while I'm trying to save his life.

CO: So after you did this, you did your CPR on this squirrel. What else did you do?

RG: I put it in my knee pad and I walked him back around to the front of house and I sat down on the concrete with him and grabbed my video camera out of my truck and just kind of waited to see what happened. I was tickling his foot to see if I was going to get some response out of him. I was petting him and talking to him and things like that.

CO: But he’d probably take it in a fair bit of chlorinated water when he was in the pool?

RG: He did and then when I had him draped over us a small piece of PVC I could see some of it running out of his mouth. And then when he did kind of almost like a hiccup or I guess or maybe he was you know that's the squirrel's way of throwing up some of the water came out and went on the ground. I think that's kind of freed up his air passage in his lungs to get him going again.

CO: Wow and within about an hour then he had fully recovered?

RG: Yup, within about an hour he had fully recovered and he kind of sniffed around a little bit and he was walking around beside me and you know I thought well, he looks like he's doing OK. He doesn't seem to be scared of me. So I thought well, I'll sit here with him and see what he does and then when he ran around behind me and where I was sitting on the ground and then after he turned around behind me I went to go grab the camera so I could record him sitting behind me and he took off across the gravel and straight back out the fence and into the desert.

CO: And that was it? He was gone?

RG: Yeah, that was it. He didn't even give me the look over the shoulder or a wave or anything like that.

CO: Not even as much as a thank you note?

RG: Nope, not even a thank you.

CO: Why did you do it? Why was it important for you to take the time out from your pool job to revive a ground squirrel?

RG: I don't like seeing things suffer. I mean it kind of saddens me when I see people that don't have homes, don't have food, don't have money. People that are all you know in distress all the time and if I can do something to help I can. I mean I've you know taken friends out to lunch that didn't have a whole lot of money or take friends to work with me who needed jobs. That type of thing just to try to help them out. And if I see someone that's drowning you know definitely I’m going to jump in and try and help out because that's just human nature.

CO: So it doesn't deal with as a human being or a little critter like a squirrel?

RG: No. Anybody. Anything. I would do it for anybody. If they were in need, I would try and jump in and help out. I've always been very protective of my friends and family whenever we go places. So I'm always, you know, it's like a second nature just to be on guard.

CO: We've done a number of stories on this program -- As It Happens -- on people who have rescued animals in some cases by CPR and some cases by giving mouth to mouth to animals: chickens, chickens, dogs, even a goldfish once.

RG: Really?

CO: Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, you think you did a lot some have gone one step further. Would you ever give mouth to mouth to a squirrel?

RG: You know, I first I thought about it, but I thought, what if I blew too hard and ruptured his lungs or, you know, damage something. I don't want to kill him by my own hands. But I thought, what, if I get a straw. Then I thought, no, if I use a straw, I might hurt him. I might push too hard or blow too hard in it and ruin, you know, his lungs or something like that. I thought I'd better just play it safe and keep on doing what I'm doing and see if it works.

CO: And it sure did, didn't it?

RG: Yeah.

CO: Rick it's great to talk to you. Thanks a lot.

RG: It's great to talk to you too. I appreciate you calling.

CH: From our archives, Arizona pool repairman Rick Gruber talking about squirrel CPR with Carol on June 6th, 2014.

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Part 2: Manitoba Adoption

Manitoba Adoption

Guest: Sharon & Rob Steeves

CH: Parenting is challenging right now. And the more children you have, the more challenging it is. Well, a couple in Manitoba now has 11 kids. They adopted three of their children from Ukraine in 2016. And just a few days ago, they brought home eight more Ukrainian orphans -- siblings who range in age from five to 16. And they did it in the middle of the global COVID-19 pandemic. Sharon and Rob Steeves are now settling in with their brood of 11 in isolation at home in Grunthal, Manitoba. And that's where we reached them.

CO: Sharon, I'm going to start with you. What's it like suddenly to be a mother of 11 kids, especially at a time like this?

SHARON STEEVES: It's actually not bad. We already had eight of them for three weeks out in Ukraine. Yeah, it's actually okay. The first night was funny though, because I made dinner for 11. And then Rob says, well, where is our dinner? [Laughter] Well, I counted 11. And he said, yeah, 11 kids but there's 13 of us. [Laughs] And I'm like, oops. We had a sandwich.

CO: A family of 13 altogether. Wow! That's something. And how are they doing? How are the latest batch doing -- the eight that have just arrived? I know you had three you adopted in 2016 and now you've got this group. How are they all doing?

SS: They're doing very well. They're settling good. Our kids from before had been best friends with these ones at the orphanage. So they were super excited to be joining our family. And our oldest daughter, who's almost 16 from the first lot, her and the eldest one from this lot used to always talk about how it would be wonderful if they could be sisters and they would love to be sisters. And they didn't really think this would ever happen. And now that it has happened, the two of them are delighted.

CO: I want to ask how you pulled this off, because these adoptions, you didn't plan it this way, but they just came through at a time when the entire world was shutting down. Borders were shutting. Airlines were stopping to fly. Did you ever wonder if you were going to pull this off?

SS: Yes, we did many times. When we were in Ukraine, the restrictions all started because we had actually tickets booked to come home. And they cancelled our flight and we felt we were going to be stuck there for a very long time. And it was getting very uncomfortable there because even people in the street were sort of looking at us funny because we talked with an accent or they didn't understand us. And I think we were all scared that we were carrying the virus. So we were so thankful to get home.

CO: You were in Kiev for a while.

SS: We were in Kiev for just a couple of days. But we were in Belgrade, which is about an hour and a half south west of Odessa, where the orphanages are. And that's where we stayed for about three weeks with all the kids. But we were there several weeks before that, just Rob and myself.

CO: Now, you said that all these kids had known each other at the orphanage in Ukraine. So whose idea was it that you should all be one big happy family in Manitoba?

SS: The middle child of the first three -- Conor -- he was about 13, I believe. And he said to my husband one night, "can we not adopt more kids?" I'll let Rob explain how that all came up.

CO: Hi, Rob, are you there?

ROB STEEVES: Rob here.

CO: Hello, Rob, this is Carol. We just want to know the story of how it came to be that I guess your son Conor had an idea about how you could all be one happy family. How did it come about?

RS: Well, Conor has a very sensitive heart and he feels things very deeply. And even upon his arrival, when he was adopted into our family, he very quickly and probably more so than the other two has a real deep sense of appreciation for what he's gained by leaving Ukraine, by being adopted, by coming to Canada. His words were "In Ukraine, I was a nobody. My teachers treated me poorly. I really had no friends." And he said, "Now, I have a mom and a dad. Now I'm a person." And he wanted, because of his contacts with the kids in the orphanage, wanted them to have that same experience.

CO: But it's one thing to want that and another thing to pull it off. I understand you were initially reluctant to adopt the other eight kids.

RS: Oh yeah because it's tough. It was tough for them as children. There's a huge adjustment. The first month or two are kind of crazy, if not insane. It's tough for us as parents. So, yeah. And I mean, there's a huge financial burden. We financed the whole thing ourselves the first time. And my initial response when he said that was no. He brought it up a number of times and finally I quite firmly said, no, this is end of discussion. This is not happening. But I had quite an internal struggle over it for the next four to six months.

CO: So what changed your mind then?

RS: It was actually a message that our pastor was preaching about allowing Jesus to really govern the yes and the no in our lives, because the Bible to very clearly teaches that true and pure religion involves taking care of widows and orphans.

CO: Okay. So it was God's will. But you would have to come up with the support. Who did you have? Who could you turn to help, I guess, finance the adoption of 11 kids?

RS: I went at our Sunday school class and our Bible study group, I just said, you know, if you feel the Lord leading you to help make this happen and there is a couple that stepped forward and said, we'll be your fundraising committee.

CO: And how much money did they raise for you then?

RS: Well, in total, it's in excess of 55,000 -- it's between 55 and 60-thousand. There's still some money coming in. We came home to a van. A 15-passenger van had been purchased for us. A brand new washer and dryer. A second deep freeze loaded with food. And since we're in quarantine every day, somebody is dropping off groceries.

CO: I understand there is there was a quite a reception for you. They found a way around quarantine rules to welcome all your new kids.

RS: Yeah, there was. We got a phone call on Sunday. Trish said you got five minutes to have everybody down at the end of the driveway. We didn't really know what was coming. And the first vehicle came on the Canadian flag and it was a truck. And welcome back to Canada. And every vehicle came and I started to cry. But every vehicle came either with s Canadian flag, with writing on it: "Welcome back. Welcome home Steeves. Welcome to Canada" to the kids. And there was in excess of 50 cars and they were dropping off gifts at the end of the driveway as they drove by.

CO: How did the kids feel about that?

RS: It's hard to catch their emotion. They seem kind of overwhelmed. I know with the ongoing gifts that are being brought there's a real sense of excitement when somebody else was coming. Because their first language being Russian, there's still some communication barriers. I know our three original -- the first three that we adopted -- they were deeply moved and deeply touched by it.

CO: Well, I add my own voice to all those others and say, welcome. Give them a big warm welcome to Canada. Rob and Sharon thank you for what you're doing.

RS: Once you've visited that part of the world and had that experience, the tug at your heart strings is huge. What those kids have to experience without having a forever family is unbelievable.

CO: It was so very special for you to do that. Thank you so much.

RS: You're welcome.

CH: We reached Rob and Sharon Steeves at home in Grunthal, Manitoba.

[Music]

From Our Archives: Dr. Fauci Bobblehead

CH: No doctor likes to give bad news. In the US no doctor has been giving more bad news to more people lately than Dr. Anthony Facui. But people don't like getting bad news. Every time Dr. Fauci stresses the gravity of the situation, a segment of Americans threaten to kill the messenger. In fact, the death threats have become so persistent that Dr. Fauci has had to step up his personal security. But it hasn't affected his message. So he's not a yes man. Which is why the National Bobblehead Hall of Fame and Museum is paying tribute to his sober voice of reason with a bobblehead in his image. Which the NBHOFM calls "the ultimate honour." I'm not sure any of us believes that's quite accurate, but it's nice. So like a bobblehead, let's just smile and nod. And that reminds us. Phil Sklar is the co-founder and CEO of the National Bobblehead Hall of Fame and Museum. In 2015, Carol spoke with him about how that institution came to be.

CO: Phil, how many bobbleheads do you have?

PHIL SKLAR: Yeah, well individual bobbleheads we have about 4,000 unique bobbleheads. But by the time we open, we're anticipating having nearly 10,000 bobbleheads, which would be definitely the world's largest collection unless somebody is hording a large collection that we're unaware of.

CO: Ten thousand bobbleheads — that's your goal?

PS: Yeah, that's sort of the goal. You know we want to have a really wide assortment of bobbleheads from you know all periods and all genres. You know if it bobbles, we want to have some representation in the Hall of Fame and Museum.

CO: Well now, you don't have this museum yet, right?

PS: Correct. We've announced the Hall of Fame and Museum in mid-November, and we've been in the planning and development stages ever since. But we did recently announced a preview show, which is going to be at a local art gallery January through April.

CO: And for the time being, you and your roommate, where are you storing all your bobbleheads?

PS: in our condo that we share, we have probably close to 500. Now we've taken a lot out — maybe another 500 in the garage. And we had them piling up in the kitchen, and that's really when we started to brainstorm ideas for what are going to do with all these bobbleheads? And that's how this idea was developed.

CO: Describe your bobblehead kitchen then.

PS: So the bobblehead kitchen before had bobbleheads on all the counters. It was a hard time cooking. It was either the microwave or eating out. So we moved the bobbleheads from counter space to shelving that we made above the cabinets. There's still bobbleheads in the kitchen, but now it looks like a normal kitchen.

CO: Do I understand correctly that you and your roommate have now quit your jobs, and are full-time bobblehead museum collectors?

PS: Yep, that is 100 per cent correct. We quit our jobs, and have focused all our efforts on the bobbleheads. And we also create bobbleheads — custom bobbleheads — whether it's somebody who wants one bobblehead of themselves or a loved one or a team or individual or organization that wants you know a hundred or a thousand.

CO: And when do you open do you think your bobblehead museum?

PS: So January through April is when we're going to have the preview exhibit, and then shortly after that is when we intend to open the physical location.

CH: Part of Carol's 2015 interview with Phil Sklar, co-founder and CEO of the National Bobblehead Hall of Fame and Museum in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. A portion of the proceeds from the brand new Dr. Fauci bobblehead will go to support the $100 million mask challenge.

[Music]

Luxury COVID Retreat

Guest: Jane Dinh

CH: The website for a new community in northern California called Haven, shows dreamy photographs. Dinner parties and wood cabins. Friends laughing in a hot tub together. Forest yoga classes. All activities we're told to avoid for the time being in the age of COVID-19. But Haven claims to be different. It's billed as a modern day escape community for people who are tired of being cooped up at home and crave social interaction. Well health experts have some questions about Haven. And so do we. Jane Dinh is the entrepreneur behind the project. We reached her in San Francisco.

CO: Jane, we keep hearing that the best way to fight COVID-19 is to isolate ourselves, to stay home. Isn't that good advice?

JANE DINH: It definitely is. Yes.

CO: Do you agree with it?

JD: I do. I do.

CO: But you are planning something quite large, don't you?

JD: Yes. But it is pretty much like a town where everyone has their own cabana or their own cabin as well. There's social distancing involved in this.

CO: It's called Haven.

JD: It's called Haven. Yes.

CO: And how do you propose to make this work?

JD: So we actually are working with the town owner for this. So we had like one month-long stays and people can actually stay for as long as a year. So this isn't considered a trip or a retreat. It's actually a move. And moving residences is actually allowed under the shelter in place mandates in California.

CO: And you can rent this entire town?

JD: Yes. Usually before, the owner only rented it out for events. But this is the first time that she actually wants to use her town for residential purposes.

CO: How many people do you propose will join you in this haven?

JD: A few dozen.

CO: And how much will it cost them?

JD: It starts at 750 dollars a month. That's cheaper than living in San Francisco or nearby areas. So we try to make this as affordable as possible so that, you know, costs shouldn't be a barrier to joining.

CO: Do they go back and forth? Do they do their shopping -- get their own groceries?

JD: Oh, no, no, definitely not. So we try to make this as self-sustainable as possible. So we've already just ordered a bulk order of food. So there's not going to be that many deliveries coming in and out. We also do not allow people to come in and out of the town. So, you know, once you're there, you have to stay there for at least a month. And we also don't allow like outside residents to come in as well. So we're fully self-sustainable. We're solar powered. We have our own garden to produce our own produce. We have chickens and ducks. We are very self-sustainable. We're not going to allow people to kind of do grocery shopping trips outside of town.

CO: In addition then to the $750 a month people buy their meals from you?

JD: Yes, they can buy food. Depends on how much you eat. It's about $10 a meal. All organic and cooked for you.

CO: Okay. So you say that no one will be allowed in and people won't be going out. How do you police that? How will you keep your borders safe in this haven?

JD: So there's actually only one way into the town. And we also have a security guard monitoring the entrance.

CO: So the security guard will not let people in or out.

JD: Yes. Yes. I mean, you can go at leave after a month or let's say like come in and you decide it's not for you, you can leave. So we're not going to hold anyone hostage. If you realize this isn't for you, you can leave. But you just can't come back because we have a one month stay to, you know, limit the amount of ins and outs into town as possible.

CO: How can you be sure that you're not going to have COVID-19 inside your community?

JD: So we don't market this as a risk-free kind of thing because, you know, there's so many unknowns about COVID-19. Also, we're still learning about, you know, how exactly does it transmit. So, you know, there's always going to be a chance. But what we can say that we take as many precautions as we can. So it's a lower risk environment. There's always a chance. But we have a lot of precautions in place.

CO: But you are going to have dozens of people who are going to come to this community, this small place to live. If you have an outbreak of coronavirus, if you have the virus in your community, who do you turn to? Who's going to have to take care of the people in your community?

JD: So we actually have enough extra housing to quarantine those who have been affected and those who have been in close contact with those people. We have an emergency physician who has offered to give us telemedicine services for anyone who's been affected. We also have backup oxygen concentrators in case nearby hospitals are overwhelmed. And for the very serious cases, we are still within driving distance to a hospital nearby.

CO: But we know the large number of people get very sick and need to go to hospital with that. So what burden are you going to place on a rural hospital and the neighbouring community if you have an outbreak?

JD: So also, like the age of our community, we don't discriminate by age -- but it tends to be people who are more on like the millennial side. So we're not going to have as many cases as a normal aged population.

CO: You know, that's a myth, right? That this is something that just happens to older people.

JD: Definitely. Of course, it definitely happens to anyone. Yes, definitely.

CO: Are you breaking any laws in California given that you have a shelter in place order?

JD: No, because the shelter in place order actually allows people to still move residences. Since this this is a 30-day minimum and you can stay for as long as a year, it's considered a move. And we also require people to practice social distancing as well. You know, you still have to stay six feet apart from each other while a shelter in place is mandated.

CO: Just finally, do you think that this conversation we're having, do you think that people might regard this as something that's a privilege reserved for the wealthy to be able to isolate themselves in a haven like this?

JD: I think definitely they could see if they don't know the pricing beforehand. Even if the price is too high for someone, we can still work with them. We definitely don't want someone to say that or someone who want to really join and if they're a good fit for a community and they can't because of costs, we will definitely work with them. We've actually reserved some spots in our community for, you know, people in financial need so they can still come even if cost is superior.

CO: All right, Jane, we'll leave it there. Thank you.

JD: Okay great. Thank you.

CH: Jane Dinh is the entrepreneur behind a modern day escape community in northern California called Haven. We reached her in San Francisco. And you can find more about Haven on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Elizabeth Michel

CH: These days, you can dance like nobody's watching while everybody's watching. Jigging competitions are just the latest public events that have moved inside and online during the COVID-19 pandemic. These jigging contests are fixtures of community festivals across the north. And in Saskatchewan, Elizabeth Michel has found a way to recreate them on Facebook on a page she's calling From Our Home to Yours Talent Showcase. Here's Ms. Michel explaining the idea to CBC Saskatchewan.

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ELIZABETH MICHEL: We need some activities to lift up our spirits as we all face the negative impact this illness has come to the media. That's all everybody thought of. And that's all I saw on a post. And because we all miss out on our winter festival activities, our talent shows, amature shows we're all missing out on that. So we decided to come up with this. I've seen people from B.C., Alberta, Manitoba, all over Saskatchewan, south and north. And northern Manitoba. Southern Manitoba. I think I've seen a post from Prince Edward Island that I saw. So right across our great nation of Canada. And it's amazing how so many homes come together to promote this talent show. And to look just for entertainment. Yeah, that's what I wanted to see. I want to see people trying not to be so much isolated, but to participate in things that we try to do for everybody and really enjoy it, to enjoy it very much.

[/sc]

CH: Elizabeth Michel from Pelican Narrows, Saskatchewan, talking to the CBC about the online jigging competition she created on Facebook. Well, last night across Canada, there was a lot of dancing thanks to the online quarantine ceilidh -- the brainchild of Cape Breton musician Ashley MacIsaac, as he described on this show last month. From last night's quarantine ceilidh. Here's Madison Violet with their take on the folk song: Cindy Cindy.

[Music]

Tom Best

CH: For nearly his entire life, Tom Best was a fisherman. Fresh out of high school in the 1960s, Mr. Best became a licensed inshore fisherman in Petty Harbour, Newfoundland and Labrador. And for the rest of his life, he fought for sustainable fisheries in the province. But his friends say that even if you had a disagreement with Mr. Best, you could sit down and have a beer with him afterwards. Tom Best died of cancer this week. He was 74. In 2006 when the province opened up recreational cod fishing for the first time in years, Mr. Best had a new fight on his hands. Anglers were now allowed to catch five cod a day with a maximum of 15 fish per trip out on the boat. At first, he supported the recreational fishing, but that soon changed. He told the CBC's On The Go, why.

[sc]

TOM BEST: You had the support of a whole lot of commercial fishermen, but you're not going to get the support of commercial fish harvesters. If you see a bunch of people while they're sitting on the wharf knowing that they only have a three thousand pound commercial quota, probably sitting on the wharf watching people who may bring in as much as six or seven thousand pound of cod -- let's put it this way in the same boat over a period of five weeks.

CURTIS RUMBOLT: And you've seen a lot of activity like that down in Petty Harbour?

TOM BEST: Well, I will suggest to you that there's more going on then should be going on with that. And I think there's a whole lot of concern about that particular condition, the allowing the boats. And we've expressed a concern today if we understood that announcement to the minister's office and to DFO. And basically we got the impression, you know, that we're trying to be accommodating here. We have a lobby from tour boat operators. We have a lobby from those who suggest, you know, they're not going to get an opportunity to get on the water. If it had been 15 fish per boat per day, they're of the opinion they we're going to get much of a chance to get out.

CURTIS RUMBOLT: If that was tightened up, do you think you would support this fishery again next year?

TOM BEST: Oh, absolutely. I can't understand why it's so difficult for DFO and other people -- political or what -- to understand that, you know, there are a simple mechanism that can be put in place to curtail potential abuse. I would say potential abuse. And why they don't do it when it's so simple, I can't understand. When you can rest assured on September the 5th, when the fishery starts here, we're going to have commercial fishermen harassed by DFO and the enforcement people like you wouldn't believe. And to, you know, allow this loophole where it's almost impossible for them to provide the resources to be able to monitor what's going on with boats, changing crews or not changing crews and continuously gone back on the water throughout the day. To me, I can't believe after all the concerns in the fishery and all the concern over resources and fishermen trying to get something that they depend on for a livelihood or get a small index cod fishery open for it to be jeopardized by a simple loophole like that, you know, which could be rectified so easily.

[/sc]

CH: That was commercial fisherman Tom Best, speaking with CBC Newfoundland and Labrador's Curtis Rumbolt in 2006,. Mr. Bast died this week. He was 74.

[Music]

Part 3: Deep Sea Fish

Deep Sea Fish

Guest: Rosanna Milligan

CH: The deep sea holds many mysteries. Many creatures with dark secrets, fascinating to contemplate and often gross to look at. And the scientists who want to solve those mysteries and observe those gross creatures find the inhospitable conditions down there challenging and expensive. But recently, researchers have published a study about some fish that make their home in that lightless abyss. The team analyzed years worth of photographs from an observatory system off the coast of Angola. And they say that for the first time, they've documented seasonal migrations of deep sea fish. Rosanna Milligan is the lead author of the study published last month in the Journal of Animal Ecology. We reached her in Fort Lauderdale, Florida.

CO: Professor Milligan, what were you hoping to learn from these photographs about the migratory patterns of deep sea fish?

ROSANNA MILLIGAN: So when we came into this project, we really just wanted to know what kinds of fishes live down there and then to better understand some of the temporal dynamics. So how their numbers changed through time over the course of study. We weren't really expecting to see seasonal patterns coming out of our data. But as we kind of got through, you know, three or four years worth of the study, those pattern started to emerge. And we started thinking this was something that was really interesting. That was starting to come out here.

CO: It was kind of an eureka moment then.

RM: Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. Those first three or four years it was like, oh this actually looks really interesting. It looks like there's something really cool going on there.

CO: And how deep down in the sea were you're looking at these pictures?

RM: So these data come from two observatory platforms that are situated at 1400 metres water depth off the coast of Angola.

CO: Pretty dark and cold.

RM: Yes. Yes, absolutely.

CO: And what kind of fish?

RM: Most of the fishes that we were seeing down there were pretty typical deep sea species. So we saw a lot of eels, a lot of grenadier fishes or rat tail fishes, they're kind of related to cod that we see in shallow waters but just a different body form really. Some small sharks and things like that. So quite a nice range of different kinds of fishes.

CO: And what did you see them doing that we didn't know about before?

RM: So what was really interesting is looking at eventually we've built up to seven and a half years of data, which is what was published on in this study. But the main finding from this was that we're seeing these seasonal changes, recurrent seasonal changes in the abundance, the fishes at the seafloor. So they have this kind of large peak in late November in numbers and then that declines. And then we see a secondary peak later on in about June time. And that's really the first time that these recurrent patterns have been observed in deep sea fishes.

CO: But we know that birds and mammals, lots of creatures migrate. Did we not know much about these fish and that they do migrate?

RM: Well, absolutely. So it's actually been suspected for a really long time that fish in the deep sea probably move in this kind of seasonal way. But we haven't had direct evidence on that before. It's really rare to have long term time series data like these from anywhere in the deep ocean. So even though we've suspected that this was likely to be happening for a really long time, this was the first time we've had a really robust data set where we can say, yes, this is a recurring pattern and we can see it.

CO: How important is it to know that given that so much is changing because of climate change, all kinds of animals are altering their behaviour? Is it something that now you have a base in which you can study and see what affect climate change might be having on these kinds of animals?

RM: Sure. So the climate change impacts directly are not something that we looked at in this study, but I think it certainly gives us a lot more information that we can use to better understand the ocean systems. We know of, for example, there's a lot more evidence coming out now. This is demonstrating how connected the deep seas are through the surface ocean and how much everything is going to interconnected with each other. So, you know, things that happen on the surface, ocean can feed down to the deep oceans as well. So just having that kind of understanding of what processes are happening and how animals are behaving and moving around in the deep sea floor gives us a really important extra piece of that puzzle, if you like, for better understanding just what's going on down there. And you know how this might vary in the future as a result of all kinds of activities.

CO: I understand part of this research was funded by the oil company BP. Did the company have any involvement with the study itself?

RM: So BP funded the infrastructure and they provide logistical support for us to go out and collect the data. For the scientific research itself, that's all being conducted by the scientific team hosted through their own institute. And BP has been very hands off in that. My involvement with this whole project started with PHD student ship, which I started in 2010. And I received a little bit of funding from BP for that. But that was a small amount of money over three years.

CO: And so that was 10 years ago that you started your research. How does it feel to finally see your work out in the world and published?

RM: Oh, it's wonderful. This has been such a long time coming. [Chuckles] Yes. It's really great to see it getting out there. And it's been lovely to see how much traction it's getting as well as the moment. We've always thought it was really cool. It's great to see other people agree with us.

CO: Professor Milligan it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

RM: Perfect. Thank you very much.

CH: That was deep sea ecologist Rosanna Milligan in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. She's an assistant professor at Nova Southeastern University.

[Music]

Ideas Promo: Glenn Wakefield

CH: Coming up on Ideas after As It Happens, sailing the treacherous Southern Ocean alone in the godforsaken sea. In 2007, Victoria, B.C. sailor Glenn Wakefield set off in his fiberglass sailboat: the Kim Chow. Twice in the Southern Ocean, his boat capsized in a storm. And badly injured, he was forced to ask for rescue. Here's Glenn Wakefield taking up the story.

[sc]

GLENN WAKEFIELD: You know, I made a cup of tea, you know. And got a bowl of porridge out. And, you know, I spoke on the ham radio. They always start out with them, you know, are there people -- single handers there or is there anybody in need of medical attention or had some problems? And I realized that morning I thought, you know, "This is my day. This is the day." I explained my situation. And, you know, I just explained where I was. I'd had some damage. You know, I'd been unconscious, I'd had a concussion, and my shoulder was dislocated. I had some ribs that were broken. But generally speaking, I thought I was okay. I thought, you know, the boat was afloat, the mass was still in. I was going to be okay. And, you know, the Argentinian Navy, you know, they came and got me. It took them three days to get to me. You know, they circled me for 39 hours because they couldn't get near the boat because it was so rough. I mean, these are very brave men that came and got me. And, you know, I left Kim Chow in the Southern Ocean. She was still afloat. [Wave sounds] I made a decision to get off and take that refuge there. And I got on that Argentinean vessel.

[/sc]

CH: Glenn Wakefield, in the story of his 2007 rescue from a sailing disaster in the Southern Ocean. And 10 years later, in 2017, Mr. Wakefield finally succeeded in his quest to sail around the world solo. You can hear his story on Ideas coming up after As It Happens.

[Music]

Katharine Tynan Byrd Owen

CH: People over the age of 70 are especially at risk during the pandemic. So in communities across the country, people are stepping up to check in on older neighbours and offering to help with groceries. But in Elliot Lake, Ontario, that help isn't just a moral calling. It's a job. Elliot Lake is marketed as a retirement community. So the former mining towns livelihood depends on its older residents. Which is why municipal workers who would otherwise have been laid off are now coming to the aid of seniors. Katharine Tynan-Byrd-Owen is a city employee who usually helps to organize events in Elliot Lake. Now she delivers groceries to 10 different seniors every day.

[sc]

KATHARINE TYNAN BYRD OWEN: I get a list in the morning, usually a couple bunch of lists of groceries for people in the community. And I shop for them. I pick up the groceries. i go through the checkout and then I load them up into the van and I go out deliver and them. I deliver them right to their door. Generally, I go up to the door. I call ahead and say that I'm here and leave the groceries on their doorstep. So we try minimal contact as possible. And then when I pull out, they generally come out and grab their groceries. I wear a new set of gloves every time I come in and out of the van. It's getting better. But the last week was a little bit of hit and miss on what you could get. The tomato sauce is always out. Usually pasta is one of those ones that seem to never be there when you want it. So the most random things tend to be out that you wouldn't think would be out -- you know, frozen vegetables and frozen French fries and stuff like that. They're very grateful for the service. That's basically what it is, that's all I hear. They're very appreciative. They try and thank me. They're like, how do we thank you? And I'm like, this is good enough. Thanks is all I really need. It's what I enjoy about it is I like helping out and I like helping the community in any part of helping is good in my books.

[/sc]

CH: Katharine Tynan-Byrd-Owen works for the city of Elliot Lake, Ontario. She's one of several municipal workers there who are now delivering groceries to seniors in the community.

[Music]

Flour Shortage

Guest: Jeena Bishop

CH: Scroll through social media on any given day and you'll find beautiful images of baked goods, bread rolls, cinnamon buns, biscuits all made by amateurs even if the photos appear to have been taken by a professional. The reason for the explosion of baking photos is an explosion in baking because everyone's in isolation at home. And all that baking takes a lot of flour, which is why mills across the country are reporting huge spikes in demand for their product. Jeena Bishop is the co-owner of Flourist, a mill and bakery in Vancouver. That's where we reached her.

CO: Jana, are people buying a lot more flour these days?

JEENA BISHOP: People are definitely buying more flour these days.

CO: What can you give us a sense of how much more?

JB: Yeah, we're seeing an increase in sales of flour, specifically in the market or in the ballpark of about 200 percent month over month -- February to March. And then it's continuing into April.

CO: And can you manage that?

JB: Well, 200 percent includes us having to limit our supply. We've had to turn off orders through our website a number of times since the pandemic hit just so that we can stay on top of orders. So no. We can handle that much of an increase. But I think the demand would actually be much more if we could fulfill all the orders that we have interest in.

CO: And where do you get your grain?

JB: We source all of our grains from the Canadian prairies. So we work directly with family farms throughout Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba. And they supply us directly.

CO: Now, you don't sell to the grocery stores, I guess?

JB: No. We sell directly to consumers either through our website or through our bricks and mortar store and bakery here in Vancouver.

CO: I'm sure you've heard or you've been seeing for yourself that in the grocery stores, the flour section is completely cleaned out. There's no flour there. People are buying it up like crazy. Do you think we're running out or is it just hard to keep the shelves stocked?

JB: I don't think we're running out. I think that we will see a correction. No one anticipated this, obviously. And so the supply chains are currently maxed. But I don't think we're going to run out of grain anytime soon. I know our farmers won't. And I'm sure that is the same for the commodity supply chain. And so I think we all need time to catch up. I mean, we have lots of grain on hand for us. We have a daily milling capacity because we don't store any flour. We only mill it to order. And so our little artisan stone can only handle so much each day. But I'm sure the bigger flour producers as well are just getting getting restocked happen and trying to catch up. I don't think there's a shortage at all.

CO: This is Canada, for goodness sake. We have grain. We have wheat. We have barley.

JB: We have a lot of grain. We are so fortunate for our Canadian farmers growing all that grain.

CO: Now there is one speculation, I guess more than speculation that part of the problem may have been that the railway blockades actually have slowed down the arrival of grain. And we're just still catching up from that. We maybe have forgotten that that was something that we all talked about. This seems like a long time ago. But I guess that's also had an effect on the supply.

JB: Yeah. I mean, I can't comment so much on that. We weren't impacted by that at all. We do all of our shipping by truck. But I'm sure for the for the larger businesses, that could have been an issue.

CO: What are people baking, do you think? What are they telling you? Because you obviously have more than your usual customers. What are they making under quarantine and under isolation?

JB: Well, what we're seeing is a huge increase in the amount of people interested in baking sourdough at home -- sourdough bread. Sourdough is a is a long process stretched out over two full days. And I think a lot of people were keen to give it a try before but just couldn't commit the time. And so now with people working at home or spending a lot more time at home, it's really a perfect opportunity to try it out. So, yeah, we're seeing a ton of interest in sourdough baking. We also sell starter -- sourdough starter from our bakery here in Vancouver and we sell out of it every single day. We can't keep up. So that's really big.

CO: People, I guess, are learning that sourdough is like adopting a pet. You really do have something that you have to keep alive.

JB: True. Yes. I say that all the time to people.

CO: And if people are new to this, have you heard of any spectacular failures?

JB: I haven't. Well, I did talk to one customer who tried to use our durum wheat, which is normally a pasta making wheat to make bread and he said it was a spectacular failure. But he just wanted to use up what he had on hand. And I did write him in and suggest some alternatives for that. But other than that, I think the thing with bread is you can never make a perfect loaf of bread. So it's constant. It's all about constant improvement. And even the slop usually tastes pretty good.

CO: It's very forgiving, isn't it?

JB: Yes.

CO: The other day we played some video of Mary Janet MacDonald in Port Hood, Nova Scotia, the other side of the country from you. She was making her cinnamon buns. Any suggestions for what people should try?

JB: I think you can't go wrong with cookies. I just think, you know, the world is endless. There's so many varieties and variations and just look through your cupboards and see what you can add and mix into a cookie recipe that you've never tried before: dried fruit, chocolate, all those things.

CO: And get the kids involved.

JB: Exactly.

CO: Jenna, thank you.

JB: Thank you.

CH: Jenna Bishop is the co-owner of Flourist an artisanal mill and bakery in Vancouver. That's where we reached her.

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April 02, 2020 Episode Transcript

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