Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2020

The Current Transcript for April 3, 2020

Host: Matt Gallaway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: The numbers seem to be a little bit on the light side. And I'm being nice when I say that. As to whether or not their numbers are accurate, I'm not an accountant from China.

MATT GALLOWAY: As the West staggers from the effects of the coronavirus. Life is beginning to return to normal in parts of China. There are questions, though, about how transparent China has been about the effect of the virus, with reporting from Bloomberg News suggesting the government there has been deliberately underreporting infection and death rates. We'll speak with that reporter coming up. Also this morning, a return to Italy for a total lockdown has been extended until at least Easter. And later.

SOUNDCLIP

Taking care of her health is taking care of our culture. It is also taking care of our laws and our future generations.

MG: First Nations are very worried about COVID-19, coming into their communities. We'll hear what's at stake and also speak with the premier of Nunavut about attempts to keep the virus that hit his territory. Plus, are you feeling anxious these days? I'll admit it, I am. We will learn this morning the science behind why music could be the answer. We start, though, with those on the frontlines of this pandemic. Not doctors and nurses, but bus drivers, truck drivers and those helping you checkout at the grocery store. Good morning. It's Friday. I'm Matt Galloway. And this is an extended edition of The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

Baby wipes and a bucket: How this truck driver is handling physical distancing on the road

Guests: TTC Driver, Steven Kastrantas, Carmen Louie

MG: Well, despite orders to stay home, there are many workers who cannot do that. The employees I'm talking about are not doctors or nurses, but they too play an important role in keeping Canada going. And today you'll hear from three people taking the risk of going to work. My first guest is a driver with the Toronto Transit Commission. We've agreed not to use her name. Good morning.

TTC DRIVER: Morning.

MG: You're in quarantine at home right now. How you feeling?

TTC DRIVER: Not so bad. The symptoms come and go. It's been a challenge to stay home.

MG: A challenge to stay home. What are the symptoms that you're feeling?

TTC DRIVER: I've had the loss of smell, loss of taste. Heavy chest pains. It's like a pressure in the chest. Temperature sometimes goes up and down and dry itchy cough.

MG: You you were tested for COVID-19, have you got the results back yet?

TTC DRIVER: No, I haven't. I'm still waiting. There's been a backlog with Toronto Public Health, and I was told after waiting two hours on the phone to call back in a couple of days.

MG: And so in the meantime, you're just in this limbo with these symptoms that you're feeling.

TTC DRIVER: Yes.

MG: Are you seeing the doctor or what are you doing while you're in quarantine? How are you making sure that you're as healthy as you can be?

TTC DRIVER: Well, I'm drinking a lot of fluids, trying to maintain regular eating habit. It's been hard because there's a lot of [unintelligible]. Yeah. And I get my temperature checked regularily. So if there's a little spike then, like there was this morning, so I'm on the fence, whether to go to the hospital or stay home and ride it out and see how it goes.

MG: Wow.

TTC DRIVER: So it's, I mean, I don't have it as bad as other people, but it's, once your front line, you have to look after yourself, of course.

MG: For sure. Now, you said that there was it was kind of complicated in terms of staying home. What did you mean by that?

TTC DRIVER: Well, you know, you're instead of being out there doing your job, your home, your quarantined, you're in four walls for 24 hours. You really can't leave your room, or where you're staying. You've got to isolate yourself from the rest of your family.

MG: You're a transit driver. Before you went into quarantine what precautions were being taken by your employer, the Toronto Transit Commission, to keep you safe, keep passengers safe?

TTC DRIVER: So they issued out the sanitation wipes. There were gloves, hand sanitizer. The shields were, for the most part, up and active. But then they were sanitizing the buses for the most part.

MG: And did you have a mask? Did they give you a mask?

TTC DRIVER: I had access to mask. They, I believe, were handing out masks. I not too sure because I haven't been to work in about a week or so. So but I believe they are handing out masks right now.

MG: A lot of us were told, if we could, to work from home. You can't obviously drive a bus from. No. How did you feel about going to work?

TTC DRIVER: Honestly, I was fine with going to work. I honestly didn't think it would happen to me, but it did. And, you know, I wish I had actually worn the mask when requested to.

MG: There are at least six confirmed cases of covered 19 among staff of the Toronto Transit Commission. When you hear that number, what goes through your mind?

TTC DRIVER: It's sad, but we're very fortunate is that's a low count. But it is a little, it is concerning.

MG: Do you think that there might be more than that, when you say it's a low count?

TTC DRIVER: Oh. I don't actually, I don't even know, because our operators have been very diligent in taking care of themselves and being mindful of what's going on in the news. So I think for for there being six people, we're doing pretty darn good right now.

MG: Your union, the union that represents you, is encouraging bus drivers to limit their bus load to 15 passengers or fewer.

TTC DRIVER: Right.

MG: Is that the right approach, do you think?

TTC DRIVER: It's a good start? Yes. The general public has an understanding, you know, that their health is at risk as well. So to limit it to about 10 to 15 passengers, a bus, that's a pretty good number, I would think.

MG: If you get your test back negative, you could be heading back to work.

TTC DRIVER: And I'm okay with that.

MG: I was going to say, how do you feel about that?

TTC DRIVER: I'm okay with that.

MG: Why is it why is that all right with you?

TTC DRIVER: Because they've done their due diligence. I've done the test and my immune system is pretty good. So I will go to work every day, wear the mask, sanitize, keep my distance, assist the passengers and maintaining distance and do what I can because I love my job.

MG: Well, what do you want people who perhaps are working from home, perhaps they aren't obliged to go out and be at the job outside of the home. What do you want us to know about the work that you're doing? And the position that you're in?

TTC DRIVER: We're here to get Toronto moving. So be mindful of that. And you cover your mouth when you're coughing or when you're sneezing. You know, keep your distance. I mean, we're still willing to help keep your distance. And, you know, getting better or reducing the number starts with us. Not medicine. It starts with us. So practise proper hygiene and keep your hands clean. And, you know, just help us help you.

MG: Take care of yourself. I mean, it sounds like you have a lot of- the symptoms are there. You're waiting for your test result to come back. Make sure you're taking care of yourself, too.

TTC DRIVER: Thank you.

MG: I appreciate talking to you. Be well.

TTC DRIVER: Thanks.

MG: That's a driver with a Toronto Transit Commission. We've agreed to not identify her by name. She's currently at home in quarantine with some symptoms of COVID-19, and waiting a test results to come back. Montreal's Steven Kastrantas has been driving a truck for 14 years, hauling goods across the U.S. border, which is now, as you know, close to nonessential travel. Steven's on the line now from Cleveland, Ohio. Steven, good morning to you.

STEVEN KASTRANTAS: Good morning.

MG: You rolled into Cleveland last night. How are you feeling?

STEVEN KASTRANTAS: That's right. Oh, I'm feeling fine. Lots of work going on right now, but it's kind of hard, but we'll get through it, eventually.

MG: How many trips have you made to the U.S. since this all started?

STEVEN KASTRANTAS: Oh, at least once or twice a week. So maybe like eight, nine trips already.

MG: Now, what are you hauling?

STEVEN KASTRANTAS: Well, I'm hauling a lot of paper, aluminium.

MG: You said it was kind of difficult. What's difficult about your job now that perhaps wasn't difficult six months ago?

STEVEN KASTRANTAS: Well, well, it's kind of hard to get it while we're on the road. Before we leave, we've got to make sure we got lots of water, lots of food. We need a little bucket for peepee. And we've got to do because everywhere we go, it's kind of closed. And even if we get to our customers, they won't let us in. So it's kind of hard. So whenever you're hungry, if you don't have food with you, you're stuck. It's a different ballgame than what it was maybe like two months ago.

MG: A bucket.

STEVEN KASTRANTAS: Yes. A bucket. A peepee pot.

MG: You actually had you have that in the truck.

STEVEN KASTRANTAS: Yes. Yes. Cause if you want to take a peepee or do what you gotta do, you can't do it anywhere. There's nowhere to stop. Right now, yesterday I was crossing through Pennsylvania and all the En-Routes and the welcome centres and the resterias, everything is closed in Pennsylvania. So it's kind of hard.

MG: I mean, what kind of position does that put you in? Is there anything else, aside from a bucket, that you can do to make sure that you have somewhere to go if all of those places are closed?

STEVEN KASTRANTAS: Well, there's nothing else because even if we get to customers, sometimes you're gonna be able to go in. Or sometimes they just won't let you go in. Their facility is for the employees only and they don't want us in because we travel a lot and they don't want us to contaminate their place. So that's what happens. They don't want us there.

MG: And they'll just tell you, you can't come in.

STEVEN KASTRANTAS: Exactly. It's it's only for the employees of the manufacturer.

MG: Wow. What about, you know, I know in truck stops there's also showers as well. And if those truck stops are closed, what do you do to try and stay clean?

STEVEN KASTRANTAS: Well, I got from Costco those baby wipes there. Like every week, like, I shower, I could shower. I shower when I go home. Uh-Huh. So basically, like last time I went home was on Saturday. Last Saturday I went home. I didn't shower since then. And I use baby wipes because I got to be on the road all the time. And that, what's keeping me on the road is that people need us. People need their food, need their soft drinks. They need paper, need everything that you can't fax, we've got to bring it. So we got to stay on the road. I got two kids and they really got to eat. So if I'm not on the road, they won't eat. If everybody, if the trucking company stops, I think that no one's gonna be able to go to work. Even the police, even the government won't even have paper to write down what they got to say over the cameras.

MG: Do you have a sense that people understand that? I mean, I was just speaking with the bus driver.

STEVEN KASTRANTAS: I don't think so.

MG: And she talked about what it's like to have to go to work when a lot of us are being told to work from home. Do you think people get the position that you're in right now?

STEVEN KASTRANTAS: No, no, because we went from zero to hero in a week. And now people are seeing that, oh, truck drivers are really essential. Yes, we are essential. But the day that this COVID-19 is gonna stop, well, we're gonna all gonna fall back to what we were before. That's what's gonna happen. But we are the backbone of the society right now. And if you guys don't have us, you don't have nothing. That's it. That's the way it is. Especially with truck drivers that want to go, a lot of them, they still want to be on the road, but we're getting, like, I got a service provider with my phone that gives me the Internet. I'm going to run out of Internet by the end of this week, while probably by Saturday I won't have anymore Internet. I'm trying to call the provider telling them that I need Internet because they've got to face time my kids. It's been a month that I didn't see my kids. And they can't do anything for us, but the day that we're all going to stop because nobody wants to do anything for us, well, everybody is going to, it's going to be a surviving mode. They won't have nothing.

MG: Well, I was going to say and that's why I was going to say, you have a couple of kids at home and you that you haven't seen them in a month? Is that what you said?

STEVEN KASTRANTAS: Yes, yes. Already a month.

MG: What's that like?

STEVEN KASTRANTAS: Oh, it's hard, it's really hard for me. It's hard especially for them, they're really young. My my my oldest one is 11 and my daughter's seven. It's been a month that I didn't see them. Like I said, we don't shower. We use baby wipes. We got to do everything in a potty pot in the truck. We've got to have our own food. We we got to survive in this little space in the truck. And like I say, you want to stop for a shower. Are they really clean? Are they open? Are they going to let us in? Another thing, we got an e-log. We're running with a computer. And we've got to respect these hours. Now, if we don't respect these hours and we get to the skill and we do a violation, we get fined.

MG: Just in terms of like how many hours you can drive.

STEVEN KASTRANTAS: Exactly. So we get fined. So basically, when you get to the truck stop, while the truck stop is packed. So where are you going to do your break or where you're going to do your 10 hour of rest on the side of the road, which is not really like, it's not normal to sleep on the side of the highway.

MG: Before I let you go, what keeps you positive in this? This is a really tough situation that you're in.

STEVEN KASTRANTAS: What keeps me going is I know that one day we're gonna get through this and one day we're all gonna come back outside and we're gonna smell the fresh air, less polluted, the sun's gonna be out. Summer's gonna be here. Hopefully we get through this before the end of the summer and everybody's gonna be more lightly kind to each other. Everybody's gonna be happy to see each other again, you know? So that's what keeps me going. That's what I think a lot. And hopefully I get to see my kids sooner or later.

MG: I hope you do.

STEVEN KASTRANTAS: I really miss my kids. But like I say, if like the phone providers, all the companies would work, everybody together and walk at the same time all together, it would be really more easy for every one of us.

MG: Take care of yourself.

STEVEN KASTRANTAS: Thank you, sir. I really appreciate your time.

MG: You're doing important work and I appreciate it. Thank you.

STEVEN KASTRANTAS: Thank you.

MG: Steven Kastrantas is a truck driver. He's from Montreal. But we reached him this morning in Cleveland, Ohio. What he's hauling ends up on the shelves often of grocery stores and in markets. You visit the grocery store, that's one of the few acceptable outings during this pandemic. The staff who work in those stores, they see hundreds of people every single day. Carmen Louie has worked the cash at Donald's market in East Vancouver for 16 years. Carmen, good morning to you.

CARMEN LOUIE: Hi good morning.

MG: Why did you want to keep coming to work, even as we are being told to stay home if we can, you see hundreds of people face to face every single day, why are you still going into work?

CARMEN LOUIE: You know, I think it's so important to them to get to work. You know, especially in our community where we live in. We have just a very, really, really good community. And I'm going to work and fill this people that come in. It just gives me so much joy. And, you know, even this thing's happening, it really is really nice to see them coming into the store.

MG: You're a big part of that community because you're known for memorizing the names of your customers.

CARMEN LOUIE: Thank you for mentioning that. Yes. Yes, I am. I get to know them, you know, by name. So I stick on the end if I don't know them yet, I will, you know, look for it or say what's your name? I wouldn't even say that, actually. I have to use a different technique to know their name. And you remember them when they come in the next time. Yes.

MG: Do you worry about that community? Do you worry about the customers that you've come to know given the time that we're in right now?

CARMEN LOUIE: You mean worry about whether they are affected?

MG: Yes. And their health then how they're doing.

CARMEN LOUIE: Yeah, I do worry about them. But, you know, the thing is, if you're not there to serve them with the groceries and that's more worrying because you're not there to serve them. So I do. But the nice thing about this community is very particular. It's very kind, very kind and compassionate to one another.

MG: What are you doing to take care of yourself in this? You're seeing customers face to face. What are you doing to protect your own health?

CARMEN LOUIE: What do I do? Well, I do take my regular multivitamin every day. And so I go for my walk. I go for my run from time to time early in the morning. And then I read in the Bible. I believe in God. And I know that this whole thing is happening, but, you know, for there has to be a reason.

MG: Do you worry about being in that close contact with that many people?

CARMEN LOUIE: You know what? Not really, you know, I have so much faith that it is [unintelligible]. I mean, we in this store, they we have glove. I mean, I wear gloves. We have masks. We have our boss also had put those glass, those plastic glass.

MG: Oh, yes, Okay. Between- yes. So you that you have a distance between you and the customer.

CARMEN LOUIE: Right. And also the added thing is they also two meters, or 50 feet distance inside the store. And also inside of the store and also at outside the store where they line up. So all the customers are really practicing social distancing. It's really good.

MG: Has there been a change, do you think, in the attitude towards people like yourself, people who work in the grocery store, recognition that you're doing something that's essential in a really difficult time? Do you think that that's changed?

CARMEN LOUIE: My dear friend, yes. It has really a lot of change in terms of how they really appreciate you. You know, they come to the store and they say thank you so much for being here. You know, it's just so much, you know, to hear that, I'm so encouraged that I like to come to work the next day. I mean, not that I don't, but I mean, I telling you, I do love my work. I love my work. Not just like I love my job. And for them to hear that, that's like almost everybody else would say they really appreciate us being there because, without us- I'm not just talking, about us. I'm talking about all people who work who work at the grocery store, you know, including everybody. But I'm so priviledged and I'm so honoured that you take me to put me on the show, and I can speak to all people who work at the grocery store, that they are, you know, that are out there, front line workers.

MG: You are, indeed. You're right there on the front line. You're doing important work. And I really appreciate and this goes to you, but to people across the country who are doing what you're doing, thank you for that and take care of your soul.

CARMEN LOUIE: Oh, thank you so much. And thank you for having me. And I just pray that God will help us in all this coronavirus. Thank you so much.

MG: Thanks so much. Carmen Louis works the cash at Donald's market in East Vancouver, has done that for about 16 years, talking about what it's like to be on the frontlines in this pandemic. We will head to Italy coming up after the CBC News are going to check in on the toll of living in a national quarantine, a quarantine that has been extended now until at least Easter. What's the mood like in that country? We'll find out coming up in about six minutes time. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

Back To Top »

Checking in on the pandemic in Italy

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Still to come, tuning out a pandemic with music. But first, desperately seeking hope amidst Italy's continued nationwide lockdown.

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

[Noise]

MG: An Italian mayor approaches citizens on the beach arms outstretched, begging them to stop playing ping pong on the beach.

SOUNDCLIP

[Italian speech]

MG: Another mayor sits inside his office, staring into the camera, imploring people to stay home. 'Don't walk your incontinent dogs'. This mayor shouts, 'don't let your hairdresser into your home'. These are impassioned pleas from leaders all over the country. In Italy, there are now over 100,000 cases of COVID-19. Nearly 15000 people have died. Hospitals and doctors are at their max. We have reached Dr. Benedetta Giammarioli, an ICU doctor in Padua in northern Italy. Doctor, good morning.

DR. BENEDETTA GIAMMARIOLI: Good morning. Hello, everyone. It's a pleasure for me.

MG: How are you doing? And I appreciate your busy, so I appreciate you taking just a little bit of your time to talk to us.

DR. BENEDETTA GIAMMARIOLI: My pleasure.

MG: How are you doing?

DR. BENEDETTA GIAMMARIOLI: I'm good. I'm just at the end of the night shift. So it took.

MG: What was the shift like?

DR. BENEDETTA GIAMMARIOLI: This one was a complete, complete disaster, was very chaotic chief. We have our ICU beds completely occupied by patients. So we have to find other space in the hospital for them.

MG: How many days has it been like this?

DR. BENEDETTA GIAMMARIOLI: So we start with the, I say we the lock down the beginning of March, we start to realise that something was wrong and we started getting ready [unintelligible]. We tried to create some different sort of division inside the same hospital in order to create a clean area, a safe area for patient without COVID-19 infection and are there one for the patient admitting with a virus infection. We open other 30 beds in addition to the 30 we already have in the ICU. So we are now around 60 beds and we open also the entire floor for patients who don't need right now the intensive care assistants. But like a sort of sub-intensive unit to look for patients severe, but not too much to be in ICU. It's a progressive situation. We changed day by day the amount of beds, the task location. Every day is different from the previous one.

MG: And when you say last night was a complete disaster.

DR. BENEDETTA GIAMMARIOLI: Oh yes.

MG: How common is something like that? Does that repeat itself on a regular basis?

DR. BENEDETTA GIAMMARIOLI: Oh, it depends. We have seen some sort of peak and depression in the curve. We try to be prepared. We can't predict the long stay of a patient in the ICU. So sometimes we have empty bed. Sometimes not. So in that case, we need to find other solution. We have [unintelligible] we reduced elective operation we used to do in the hospital so we can use also new operating room to keep the patient managed as in the regular ICU beds because we have the same ventilator and other stuff. We used to have in the ICU.

MG: How scared of the patients that are coming into the hospital, given the scale of what's going on right now and how long this has been going on?

DR. BENEDETTA GIAMMARIOLI: Yes, for us is a little bit different because usually when the patient is admitted to the ICU is sedated and intubated, so it's not awake. So we so that usually when we start to reduce the amount of drugs we have to give them to keep them sedated and to keep them on ventilators, they start to realise what's going on. And so that's going to talk for us because they are really scared. We try to keep them connected with the world outside the ICU. We can admit their family to the ICU, of course. But we try to give them smartphone or tablet in order to make some call of [unintelligible] to just give them some sort of connection with the outside world. It's the only thing we can do actually.

MG: What about patients who aren't recovering? I'd read about patients who who are dying alone because as you said, families can't come in to see those patients because of what's going on? Is that happening in your hospital?

DR. BENEDETTA GIAMMARIOLI: It happens, of course. As I told you, when the patient is too sick to still go on with other manowevers, at that point, usually the patient is completely sedated so he has no conscious of what is going on, in order to relieve the pain and everything else. Yes, of course, when we have to intubate the patient, they are usually completely terrified about the situation because they realise that something completely new. And they don't have time to metabolize the situation to realise what's going on.

MG: It sounds really tough. How do loved ones, I mean, is there any way for them to say goodbye to their family member?

DR. BENEDETTA GIAMMARIOLI: We tried to do something. We can predict a little bit the evolution of the patient. So for us, it's not like a usual patient. We have time to plan what the next step would be for them so we can give them, I can say 30 minutes, no more than 30 minutes, to say goodbye and be a little bit more prepared.

MG: How are you coping? How are you coping with this?

DR. BENEDETTA GIAMMARIOLI: It's tough. Since the beginning of lock down, probably not only me, but also my colleagues, we used to talk about it. We went through many different feelings. I spent the last week completely exhausted and crying. Like for I don't want to say a mental breakdown, but I was like it was my way to relieving pension probably. I was very worried about the situation. And sometimes when you at home, the only thing you can do is cry and cry.

MG: What is giving you some, not optimism, because I don't know where you would see that, but after that, after you release that tension, what is giving you the drive to go forward?

DR. BENEDETTA GIAMMARIOLI: Okay, first of all, as a doctor, you assume that you can completely understand what the situation going on. So we try to have a clear mind about everything. The other thing is we start to see that the limitation measure seems to be working. So probably I don't want to say in one or two week, but maybe if we keep the situation completely locked down, we can see a reduce patient admitted to the emergency room and then, of course, to the ICU. Probably in maybe two or three weeks so we can start to see some results. The other thing is when you see good news for us is like much more than are usually good news, we are seeing the hospital. So we try to use them to give us something to go on.

MG: You've had a long night. And just before I let you go, I know that you have connections to Canada and to the city of Toronto. You've had a fellowship at Toronto General.

DR. BENEDETTA GIAMMARIOLI: Yes, exactly. And I'm planning to coming back.

MG: You're coming back, though, which would be great.

DR. BENEDETTA GIAMMARIOLI: Yes, hopefully.

MG: What do you want Canadians to understand about what's happening in Italy and what we need to do here?

DR. BENEDETTA GIAMMARIOLI: Okay. I talk with some colleagues thing in Toronto so I can see some of preparation. They are very well prepared. They have already created some protocols to manage the patient and they have time to organise the hospital, which is what we didn't have time in Italy at the beginning of March, because the spread of virus was huge, especially in the north of Italy. So maybe if you start to close everything right now, you can see less and less patient admitted than we saw in Italy, actually. So keep going with the limitations. Keep going with activity close. Try to avoid public space with a lot of people. It's the only thing you can do to prevent the spread of virus. The other thing is, we start to know this virus in the last few weeks. So there is a not a perfect treatment for them. We change our probables day by day. So the most effective measure is to reduce the contagious. It's the only thing you can really do.

MG: Take care of yourself and get some rest. And I really appreciate you taking a little bit of your very busy time to speak with us. Thank you, Benedetta.

DR. BENEDETTA GIAMMARIOLI: No worries. Thank you so much. Have a great day.

DR. BENEDETTA GIAMMARIOLI: And you, Dr. Benedetta Giammarioli is an ICU doctor. She is in Padua in Italy. Luisella Romeo Male is a tour guide in Venice. I spoke with her last month at the start of Italy's lockdown. She's back on the line with us now. Luisella, good morning to you.

LUISELLA ROMEO: Good morning to you. That was very tough and very interesting interview to listen to.

MG: It certainly was. What is it like for you to hear what she's doing?

LUISELLA ROMEO: I mean, clearly what we can do is to fight the war. Just staying home. And so I feel in awe and I don't know how to express my thanks for all the medical stuff in Italy is doing for us, all we have to do is to stay home. And that's what we do. Even if, as you know, all this means financially a major problem for a lot of us. But it's a war. So we are doing nothing. We are just staying home. And that hopefully will help.

MG: How are you coping with that? The last time I spoke with you, this was just at the very beginning of this. And now here we are a month or so later.

LUISELLA ROMEO: Yes, I think that what happened is that it's like a drop by drop worsening of the situation. Also we were given more and more restrictions, drop by drop. And who would tell a month ago what we would do today. And so what I think it's really difficult for people staying at home like myself is how long it will be. So this is the question I think we ask more and more. And there is no answer. There is no certain answer that can be given. So I'm trying to say, okay, I have to organise my days. I have to find something to do. I have to keep optimistic. And at the same time, I don't know how long this thing will be. So am I running a marathon at the moment? I think I am, but I don't know how long it will be. I don't know if the metaphor is a good one to explain.

MG: Oh, yes.

LUISELLA ROMEO: How you have to save energies and especially mental energies to deal with these house arrest and that it's in fact helping a country.

MG: What are you doing in, I'll use your phrase, that house arrest? Well, how are you passing your time?

LUISELLA ROMEO: So in my house arrest, the what I do is unfortunately, I cannot do any smart working. My husband is professor. So he can do his lessons. He can do his tests and such. But I can not. So I'm writing for my blog. I'm trying to figure it out economically and financially how to deal with probably one year without any income or almost all of it. So that's to say that studying also digital marketing or trying to say, okay, one day or the other, this emergency will be over. What can the word of cultural heritage offer to people that hopefully will be able to travel again? What can we offer them that it's not what we offered before the emergency. So to be ready when the emergency is finished to offer something new, something appealing, something that shows, look, yes, for one year we didn't work. But look, now we can offer something different. So, you know, this is a major challenge because at the same time, you are very under stress. This is not a vacation. It's not a sabbatical year when you have access to libraries to study. Uh oh. Nothing like that.

MG: I'll ask you the same question that asked the doctor to end this, what is giving you some sense of optimism or positivity in this? Because it is hard.

LUISELLA ROMEO: Well, in my case, I shift from moment to all the pessimism to a moment of optimism. So I would not be honest to tell you, yes, yes, I am optimistic. But it really depends on how can such a thing happen. I mean, still, sometimes I don't believe it's true. Sometimes I think there is, there cannot be but a good outcome out of this. At the same time, I have to be honest, sometimes I think maybe I should change my job. I don't know how many of people I work with, especially artisans, as I love arts and crafts tours, I don't know how many of them will survive a year off, especially after the high tide last November. And so that's how I shift. So.

MG: That's really honest. I mean, I think in a lot of us are going through that and you're feeling it really directly. Take care of yourself.

LUISELLA ROMEO: Thank you so much.

MG: We'll talk again.

LUISELLA ROMEO: Grazie.

MG: Luisella Romeo is a tour guide. She is in Venice.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music and singing]

MG: Tenor serenading their neighbours from balconies, musicians playing from their rooftops, so many of us have watched these videos that have circulated of Italians trying to uplift one another. But the music is slowly fading across Italy as the country grapples with the enormity of this tragedy. Megan Williams is the CBS Rome correspondent. Megan, hello to you.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Hi, Matt. Good morning.

MG: You hear the weight in the voices of Luisella and the doctor.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Yes.

MG: It speaks to the mood and how this is weighing on people around the world. How would you characterize that in Italy?

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Yeah. And just hearing that music and singing from the balconies, which I was part of, you know, three weeks and more now ago. And it's with a heavy heart that I listened to it. It really put a lump in my throat. Things have changed. I mean, that first week where there was this burst of solidarity and, you know, kind of a sense that you were in - not an adventure, because of the gravity of the situation, I think was clear to everybody - but that you were in something together. I think that's dissipated a little bit. I mean, there are lots of shows of solidarity still, but I think people have closed in on themselves more, just partly because physically we're all closed in more, now almost four weeks later.

MG: So what are people doing when they feel that sense of isolation, when they feel that they are closing in more, as you say?

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Well, I think certainly what's happening is people are checking in with each other a lot more. And as I'm sure is happening in Canada as well, there's, you know, people are going on Zoom and having Skype conference calls and all that sort of stuff. And at the beginning here, there was a bit of a flurry of that, just like there was a flurry of all of these clever memes and those died down a bit. And as did all of the classes, like everybody was organising, you know, yoga classes or some sort of way to pass the time, exercise, different sorts of things. And there were memes going around making fun of that, because it was just this whole other level of expectation where you had to use this time in where you were trapped in your home usefully. I think all of that is sort of passed now. And as Luisella was saying, it's beginning to feel like a bit of a marathon where you have to get through each day at a time. And of course, days are blurring. Now, it's a strange thing to have one day just blur into another day. But I really think most people are just, okay, this is today. Let's just get through today as best I can.

MG: One of the things she talked about was that she's trying to figure out how she can survive without essentially a year's income. Businesses are going to be closed for the long term. What are the concerns that you're hearing about people being able to afford the essentials, things like food?

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Well, it's a problem. I mean, it's clearly a problem, and the government, the national government has given various municipalities around the country about $650 million to help local people with food. And here in Rome and in other cities, people are setting up little boxes on benches where they're putting tuna and pastas and sort of non-perishables for whoever passes to dip into if they need it. You know, I tend to think that Italy is a country certainly rich enough to feed people even in an emergency like this. And it's a food centric culture. And so I think people will have enough to eat, even those families who have experience, food insecurity, I think people are aware of that. I think the bigger concern is two or three months down the line when people's businesses - this is a country whose economic engine still largely are small to medium sized businesses, often family run. I think when those businesses start failing, that's really when we're going to be seeing a lot of desperation here.

MG: What do you think this has done to the soul of Italy?

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Oh, that's a big question. You know, I think about this a lot because, having lived here now for 20 years, I think one of the aspects of this country that makes it so rich and resilient is the cultural impulse to gather to get together intergenerationally. I mean, the number of meals, you know, with neighbours, friends, people ranging in age from 92 to, you know, a newborn are running - I mean, there's just so many and that's just this wonderful part of the cultural fabric here. But it makes me sad. And it's a painful paradox that that part of the culture in some way may have influenced the spread of this disease, because it's a virus that transmits through physical touch. And it's a virus that the elders in our community are most susceptible to. So I do wonder what's going to happen. And, you know, it's painful to think of all of the older people. As you know, Italy is a country which has a high percentage of older people. They're isolated now. And I worry about them, but I also worry what is that going to do for this culture? You know, a culture that gathers in Piazza's. Does this mean all those wonderful gatherings and hugging and kissing that's going to be over? So I don't know. You know, I don't think anybody does. But I'm sure that there will be a change to that.

MG: Megan, can take care of yourself and stay safe.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Thanks so much, Matt.

MG: Megan Williams is the CBC News correspondent in Rome. Still to come, 20 minutes. That's apparently all you need to benefit from the calming effects of music. We could all do with a little bit of calming these days, we are going to help you curate a pandemic playlist. There is some science behind how that music works and what you will need in addition to 20 minutes. That's coming your way in about 90 seconds time. Stay with us. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio One.

Back To Top »

How music can soothe anxiety; COVID-19 and Indigenous communities

Guests: Adriana Barton, Marilyn Slett, Esther Tailfeather, Joe Savikataaq

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

[Music]

MG: Live music from Yo-Yo Ma. Sometimes he is sitting in an empty room performing this music. Sometimes he's sitting in a space with some cluttered bookshelves behind him. All of it is being posted up to help soothe us. Yo-Yo Ma usually performs in front of thousands of people. Many, many more people. He's done this to try and bridge a gap between what music can do and what we need. This is a little piece of music by Antonin Dvorak. It's called Going Home.

[Music]

MG: The theory that music can help us lighten the spirits just a little bit is backed up by scientific research as well. Adriana Barton is a former health reporter for The Globe and Mail, currently working on a book about the health effects of music. She's in Vancouver. Adriana. Good morning.

ADRIANA BARTON: Good morning, Matt.

MG: How did it feel listening to that?

ADRIANA BARTON: Well, you know, I had the fortune of meeting Yo-Yo Ma several times. One time when I was 15, I was a young cellist and he was so kind to that. But backstage he pulled me into his dressing room and let me try his Stradivarius. You know, hearing this on the air just now gave me chills because it took me back to that time so long ago.

MG: What do we know about the science behind what music does in terms of making us relax, making us think differently about the anxious times that we might be in?

ADRIANA BARTON: Well, music really does have drug like effects on us. So neuroscientists have discovered that music stimulates the same brain pathways as opioid drugs. But to a safer, milder degree. So morphine and heroin and cocaine sounds terrible, but they all act on opioid receptors in our brain. So does endorphin, which is a natural opioid that our brain produces and so does music. And researchers at McGill University showed this in a 2017 study. They gave music listeners a drug similar to naloxone, which basically short circuits the opioid pathways in your brain. And when listeners in the study took this drug, suddenly their favourite music left them cold. So normally our opioid pathways light up when we listen to our favourite music. Those are the songs that tap into the pleasure and reward circuitry in the brain. If you don't love the music you're hearing, you're not going to get that mild sedative effect that we need right now.

MG: Tell me more about this. Why is it that scientists think that music has this effect on us? Because anecdotally, we might know this. But what's going on in our brains is the music is playing.

ADRIANA BARTON: Well, you know, I think I tried to explain it just now.

MG: Yes. I know. It just. If there's something else, it feels like that's happening there.

ADRIANA BARTON: It's a, you know, a surge of various chemicals, so you could talk about it in terms of dopamine or these natural opioids that we produce, and the way music stimulates that is quite unique. Music actually lights up all areas of the brain in ways that scientists are still trying to figure out.

MG: This can be we heard a little bit of it through Yo-Yo Ma and the calming influence there. There's a lot of different kinds of music that could stimulate that response. There's one tune in particular that has been called the most relaxing song in the world. It's a song called Weightless and it's by the band Marconi Union. Here's a bit of what it sounds like.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music weightless by Marconi Union]

MG: Why would that one tune, do you think, be called the most relaxing song in the world?

ADRIANA BARTON: Well, the one quality it has is that it has a very slow pace and that sort of a little bit of a sweeping motion that might make people feel like they're pulled into a different place. I know this song was developed with a sound therapy group in the UK and was sort of heavily marketed through an online streaming app. So I would say I would still go with the music you love most rather than choosing a song that that's promoted that way, if that makes any sense.

MG: And that's part of - you have these five tips that would allow us to enjoy music to try to calm anxiety. One of them is, as you say, pick the music that you love. Can that be anything, even if it's not as calm as that, if it's, you know, louder, if it's noisier, if it's something that's a bit more aggressive, is that still going to work?

ADRIANA BARTON: I would say that I mean, if you want to com anxiety, I would air towards a slower pace music. But definitely the pleasure part is the single most important part. And it is what music therapists use as a guiding principle in their work. So it doesn't matter if your favourite music is bluegrass or hip hop or new age, massage, whatever. You want the songs that give me the chills and make me want to sing along or just make you enraptured. And again, it's because those songs are the ones that are going to stimulate that pleasure the words to [unintelligible] brain.

MG: You say you talk about beats per minute.

ADRIANA BARTON: Yes, after that, I would say try and choose a slow paced song. So 60 to 80 beats per minute and that's about the pace of a resting heartbeat. And the reason for that is that we have brain areas that regulate our breathing and our heart rate, and those same brain areas tend to synchronise with the tempo we hear. Also, studies of music for stress that reduction, show that music at about 60 to 80 beats per minute is most effective. And if you look online, you can insert Spotify or other streaming platforms and some of them even have playlists organised by beats per minute.

MG: You say that we need to listen for 20 minutes. Why 20 minutes?

ADRIANA BARTON: Well, that number is somewhat random, but it does seem to be the typical duration used in studies that have looked at music for acute anxiety and stress. So it's the one that's consistently worked. And the other thing I would add is that generally you want to maybe sit in a quiet space and close your eyes. Don't do anything else while you're listening to music because we know that multitasking drives up our adrenaline and cortisol which adds to our stress. So it's better to sit back and let the music kind of sweep you away. And it's a bit like meditation, but you don't have to sit there counting breaths. You can bask in the music.

MG: We asked you for one of your personal picks and you chose this song.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music: Eva Cassidy's Fields of Gold]

MG: It's Eva Cassidy in fields of gold. Why did you take that song and what's going through your mind when you hear that?

ADRIANA BARTON: Well, she sounds so wistful to me and her voice is very beautiful. And the song to me is about how fleeting life is. And it does bring me to tears. It's slow and it's tender, and I find it comforting. And so this is one of my go to songs. I listened to it in the last day. Like everyone, I'm getting stressed about COVID. And certainly I feel a sense of solace in that song. Another thing I do is, is I play music. I used to be a cellist and now I play drums and a Zimbabwean instrument called [unintelligible], which has kind of a tinkling sound. It sounds a bit like falling rain. And when I'm playing music, I can't do anything else. I can't think about anything else because it really does, I mean, probably what's happening is it's lighting up all my brain, but all I experienced is that I'm just doing that. So this is a great time to dust off the guitar. Even on Twitter, a friend saying 'it took a pandemic for me to play my violin again'. But it's giving me so much pleasure and relief, you know? So that's another option other than just listening. But certainly I want people to think of music as a practical tool that any of us see. You don't have to be a musician or a performer. You can just take his favourite songs and get relief and the sense of calm from them.

MG: Adrianna, thank you for the tips. I think we could all use them. I appreciate it.

ADRIANA BARTON: I really thank you for having me. And stay well.

MG: And you, Adrienne Barton is writing a book about the health effects of music. Would love to hear from you. Is there a song that you find particularly soothing during these anxious times? Let us know. Tell us about the song and why it has that effect on you. And we'd love it because this is radio. If you recorded your message, take phone and use that voice memo option. Record your message and email it to us. Go to cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the contact link to find our e-mail and all the other ways to reach us.

[Music]

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. 15 cases of COVID-19 are confirmed in indigenous communities in Canada, and many say vigilance will be needed to stop the spread now.

SOUNDCLIP

Communities are taking exceptional measures to prevent the spread of virus, including restricting travel in and out of communities, self-isolation and quarantine of returning travellers. And we will continue to adapt plans and provide surge capacity as the situation evolves.

MG: From curfews to lockdowns, First Nations are doing everything they can to block this pandemic. And as Indigenous Services Minister Marc Miller said, the measures are exceptional. I'm joined now by representatives from two very different communities. Marilyn Slett is the chief counsellor of the Heiltsuk tribal council in Bella Bella. It's a remote island nation off the central coast of British Columbia. Dr. Esther Tailfeathers is a community physician and the Kainai nation about 200 kilometres south of Calgary. Good morning to you both.

ESTHER TAILFEATHER: Good morning.

MARILYN SLETT: Good morning.

MG: Marilyn Slett, your community is one of more than, what, two dozen in British Columbia currently on lockdown. What does that lockdown look like in your community?

MARILYN SLETT: So for us, it started in in mid-March and we were taking measures to make sure that we had a good understanding of who was travelling into the community. So we were discouraging non residents of coming into Bella Bella, people that don't live here, that are not from our community and people that were coming home at that time, we were also asking them to self isolate upon return to Bella Bella.

MG: Doctor Tailfeathers, you and I spoke, about a month or so ago things have changed since then in your community in southern Alberta. There's a curfew. What's happening there?

ESTHER TAILFEATHER: We're trying to address the youth in our community who are not listening to their parents, not taking it seriously. And so they're still getting together and socializing. And so this was a step in that direction of trying to get them to stay home.

MG: And what time do they need to be home by?

ESTHER TAILFEATHER: 9:00 p.m.

MG: And what efforts are in place to make sure that they are home by nine. Young people will get out. And they wanted, to your point, they want to be together. They want to socialize. How are you enforcing that?

ESTHER TAILFEATHER: The police are helping. I mean, it's not strictly enforced, but. But strongly enforced. And so they're reminding they use that they need to be home, but they're not taking them to jail or anything, just reminding them.

MG: Marilyn, one of the things that we have heard, whether it is on Haida Gwaii or in other communities across this country, is that these measures are necessary in part to protect the elders in your community. Tell me a little bit about why that's important in your community now.

MARILYN SLETT: Definitely. You know, we're at our most critical and crucial times for language revitalization. Never before in our thousands of years of history, we're 700 generations plus, you know, history and strength of Heiltsuk. And we have a very limited amount of speakers that are fluent. And we have about 30 and they're all 75 years of age and older. So for us, you know, we've got such a limited amount of fluent speakers. And they're so precious to us. All of our elders, we have around 220 elders in our community. And these are the people that transmit our oral history and our laws, our laws and our way of thinking in terms of Heiltsuk people. So it's so important that we protect them and do everything that we can to make sure that we have their well-being focussed.

MG: Tell me a bit more about what strain COVID-19 would put on your community broadly if it were to arrive. Your community is largely accessible by boat. And so if this were to appear in your community, what would happen?

MARILYN SLETT: Definitely so. Bella Bella is an island on the Central Coast, so we're accessible by aeroplane and by ferry. So if someone was positive for COVID-19 and had to be air ambulanced to Vancouver, that's about an hour and a quarter right away from Bella Bella. And also whether dependent's because we are the coast to B.C., so weather can fire up. And we have a small hospital here in the community with a limited amount of beds. So it is a limited supply here in the community.

MG: Esther, for the Kainai Nation, there are complicating factors. There's a housing shortage there. You have an opioid crisis as well. What would the arrival of this virus mean for your community?

ESTHER TAILFEATHER: I think it will be very difficult for our community to deal with it once it hits and it starts rising. We have, you know, people that are homeless and vulnerable and or we have, you know, very crowded housing situations. So it's going to be difficult to contain once it gets here. But the people in the community are doing a very good job of physical distance and isolating. So we're not seeing much movement in this whole region of Alberta, southern Alberta. There's only been two new cases in the last couple of days. So it's gone from 12 to 15 over two days. So I would say, you know, we're doing a really good job of keeping that down.

MG: The other complicating factor is the Kainai nation is very close to the U.S. border. How difficult is it to ensure that there's not communication or in terms of travel back and forth and bringing that virus from one place to another?

ESTHER TAILFEATHER: Well, luckily, the U.S. border is closed. So basically we have no entry into this area. We're pretty well landlocked because there's nobody coming up from the south. And so that's what's helping a lot, I think.

MG: What do you want from the federal government? Marc Miller, the indigenous affairs minister, said that there would be no indigenous community that would be left behind. What, and I'll start with you, Esther, specifically, would you want from the federal government in this?

ESTHER TAILFEATHER: I think we're going to be looking at some recovery after this is over. Hopefully it won't be big time, but we'll be needing also economic recovery as well. And I think most communities recognise what's happened with the crossing crowded housing situation. And I think the federal government really needs to address housing for populations that are difficult to house in terms of their addictions, or we should be making housing affordable because there's poverty in all of our First Nations communities. So housing is a huge thing and I think we shouldn't give that up.

MG: This is something that people have known for a long time. Do you think that a crisis like this will put that on the table?

ESTHER TAILFEATHER: I think so. I think that the powers that be will sit down with First Nations and talk about this housing situation as well as poverty. I think that the current situation has made all Canadians aware of what it's like to be afraid for not having your housing or to lose your job and live in poverty.

MG: Marilyn Slett, what do you want from the federal government?

MARILYN SLETT: We have similar concerns in our community housing, where requests seem people self isolate and stay home. You know, the schools are closed, our offices are closed. We've provided, we're going into our second week providing time off with pay for our staff to be at home, self isolating with their families. So, in reality, many of our ah, community members [unintelligible] in overcrowded homes or homes that aren't, you know, the safest, safest of homes. So we recognise that there's a lot of work to do to direct, to fight up. We're also what we call in our- it's our new year, it's our harvest new year. And that's kicked off with a spun on kelp fishery. And it's one of our main economic drivers for the community, brings millions of dollars into the community and helps to support our families. And that fishery was cancelled this year.

MG: Where does that money going to come from then?

MARILYN SLETT: So. Well, that's a that's a good question, because right now, it was cancelled on two different, you know, areas. One was obviously the well-being of our community to be able to conduct that fishery in a way that didn't put their health at risk. You know, with the COVID-19 and the other is the global market, you know, collapsing around us. So, you know, certainly discussions with the federal and provincial governments around those economic losses and how this global recession that will likely come as a result of this pandemic. Our communities need to be a part of those conversations around the losses that we're also experiencing in our communities.

MG: I hope we have the chance to talk again. This is a complicated story and it doesn't seem to be going anywhere anytime soon. In the meantime, take care of yourselves, both of you. And I appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.

ESTHER TAILFEATHER: Thank you.

MARILYN SLETT: Thank you.

MG: Dr. Esther Tailfeathers works as a physician in the Kainai nation, southern Alberta. Chief Marilyn Slett serves on the Heiltsuk Tribal Council in Bella Bella, British Columbia. There's only one territory in Canada with no reported cases of COVID-19. Nunavut is doing everything it can to keep the virus from breaching its borders. That includes hiring security guards to monitor residents who are in quarantine outside the territory. Angela Arseny and her mother are among a group of people stuck in a hotel in Winnipeg. Here is how Angela Aksawnee describes their situation.

SOUNDCLIP

Like the government of Nunavut doesn't trust us. We are told that we can, like just be the room, they'll provide meals for us. They deliver it right to our door. And we can call the front desk if you want to go for like five to 10 minutes of fresh air, couple times or so. We're escorted out by the security. Not we're not allowed to walk around the premises. Just right out the front door and no privacy. Yes, we feel like we're treated worse than inmates, like people in prison.

MG: For more on Nunavut's response to COVID-19, the premier of Nunavut, Joe Savikataaq is on the line with us. Premier, good morning.

JOE SAVIKATAAQ: Good morning, Matt.

MG: You just heard the frustration in Angela’s voice. She says that the way that she's being treated is a bit like worse than people in prison. How do you respond to that?

JOE SAVIKATAAQ: Our response is we are doing whatever we feel we need to do to keep COVID-19 out of Nunavut. And as you stated earlier, we're the only jurisdiction in Canada that still has no COVID-19 within it. We have four major cities where we are due with our self-isolation quarantine. And Angela is correct that there're security guards. It's not that we don't trust the clients that are there is that we want to make sure that there is no contact from anyone. Otherwise the point of being self isolated for 14 days would be muked and they might be able to bring the virus in. We pay for their accommodations. We pay for three meals a day. If they want different food, they can order their own food in at their own expenses. And it's a tough situation. I agree. But where we feel that this has to be done for it to protect all of Nunavut from this virus, because we have a we have lots of overcrowding within Nunavut, we're very vulnerable to this virus. And our best defence is to keep it out of Nunavut.

MG: It's a pretty difficult decision to make. I'm sure to keep people out like that. I mean, she feels as though she's trapped in some ways. Do you feel concerned about the effect of that decision, or to you is the bigger picture more important here?

JOE SAVIKATAAQ: I feel for not just her, but for everyone that is inside self-test isolation for 14 days in the cells that want to come into Nunavut. We've made- I believe we have the stringent, more stringent travel regulations right now within Canada. If you're not a Nunavut residence, you are not coming into Nunavut unless you are a critical worker. If you're a critical worker, then you make an application to the chief public health officer. And if he deems you're a critical worker, then you can come into animal and not do the 14 days of self isolation. But you still have very stringent regulations that you have to follow once you're within Nunavut. And I feel for the people that are in there for 14 days, but it's something that we feel we need to do to protect all of the Nunavut [unintelligible]. It's not ideal, but we feel that the best we can do to keep COVID-19 out of Nunavut.

MG: Do you think it's inevitable that the coronavirus will manifest itself in Nunavut?

JOE SAVIKATAAQ: Dr. Patterson, our chief public health officer, feels that, yes, die eventually will get to Nunavut. But we're doing our best to keep it out of Nunavut and we're doing our best to flatten the curve. And when he does, if and when it does get here, what we're doing a lot is encouraging people to self isolate, wash their hands with water often and have no physical contact so that people of Nunavut are used to that. So if and when it does come, the likelihood of it becoming spread everywhere, like an outbreak, will be lessened so that if there is someone does have it, they'll be self isolated and we can contain the spread.

MG: Do you have the resources if there were to be an outbreak to treat people or are there what sort of ventilator supply do you have? Are there masks and gowns for those on the frontlines? Are those resources there?

JOE SAVIKATAAQ: Currently, we have the resources here, but if there is outbreak, no, we will not be able to handle a serious outbreak in one of the communities. We have 25 flying communities, so the resources are limited. But the one good thing is that because these are flying communities, if there is a case in one, we can completely isolate that one community and restrict the aircraft to going in and out to essential workers and restrict everything that we need to to contain it in that community. And as for ventilators, Dr. Patterson said if someone needs a ventilator and we do have ventilators. But if someone needs to be on a ventilator, we don't have the facilities to treat. So therefore, they do have to be med-evaced to the south.

MG: What do you want the federal government to do in terms of additional support for your territory?

JOE SAVIKATAAQ: I've told the prime minister that currently we have enough supplies and [unintelligible], but if there is an outbreak, we will need more. And when we make the requests that we need them now, we won't build a [unintelligible] because we just don't have the resources in terms of personal protection equipment and staffing. If the health resource staff start getting sick because they're treating an outbreak, then they would have to re replace. And even before COVID-19, we do have a shortage of nurses within Nunavut.

MG: It's a pretty delicate situation.

JOE SAVIKATAAQ: Yes. That's why we're doing, which in my opinion are extreme measures. But these extreme measures are needed to protect Nunavut Inuit to keep the cold virus out of the neighbourhood. And if it does come to make sure that we don't have an outbreak, if you have an isolated incident in the community and their self isolating, we can contain that. If there's a few cases, we can contain that. If there's a serious outbreak, then we will definitely need help from the federal government. We would not be able to handle it.

MG: Premier, I appreciate you speaking with us. Stay safe and stay healthy. Thank you.

JOE SAVIKATAAQ: Thank you very much.

MG: Joe Savikataaq is the premier of Nunavut. Coming up in about six minutes time, we're going to speak with the physician and novelist Daniel Kalla. He has a book. It's called Pandemic. It's supposed to be fiction. Sounds like what we're living through right now. You'll hear from him coming up. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current on Radio One.

Back To Top »

Daniel Kalla and pandemics in fiction; COVID-19 misinformation

Guests: Daniel Kalla, Andrea Bellemare

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme].

MG: Still to come, Andrea Bellemare will be here to tear down some of the bogus COVID-19 cures and quackery floating around online. It's on its way. But first, mastering our fears with a doctor who writes them.

[Music: Theme].

MG: The tag line on his book reads, SARS was only the beginning. 15 years ago, Dr. Daniel Kalla wrote Pandemic, a thriller about a virus that emerges in China and ends up gripping the world. Last year, his book. We All Fall Down. Imagine the recurrence of the Black Death. I should probably mention these books are fiction. Today, though, as you can imagine, Dr. Daniel Kaila is helping us battle a very real outbreak, not only through his writing. He's also the head of emergency medicine at St. Paul's Hospital in Vancouver. Dr. Kalla, good morning.

DANIEL KALLA: Hi, Matt. Great to be with you.

MG: It's great to have you here. How are you doing in all of this?

DANIEL KALLA: Pretty good. Morale is still pretty high in Vancouver at my hospital, I think across the city, but it's tiring, as I'm sure you know.

MG: What is it like if you- paint a picture of us for us life in your emergency department? What's it been like this week?

DANIEL KALLA: Well, you know, it's as if if we've moved the emergency department to like a lunar set. You know, the amount of reorganisation and redeployment we've had to do in preparation for COVID and all COVID related. Everything about the departments changed, you know, the flow of it, the setup. Of course, the PPE and how people prepare for patients. So it really is, it's like it's unbelievable what it used to be like a month ago to walk into the emergency department to compare it to today.

MG: You mentioned the PPE. Do you have enough of the protection equipment to keep you and your colleagues safe?

DANIEL KALLA: Yes. You know, I think that's a global fear amongst health care workers. Our health authority, I think, our country has done as good a job. I mean, everybody in the world is competing for it. But right now, we feel we have an adequate level. You know, it's such a priority for us to make sure everybody from the doctors down to the clerks and the cleaners and everybody is protected properly and kept safe. So for now, we're doing okay.

MG: There was a doctor that was in your group that was diagnosed with COVID-19 this week. Is that correct?

DANIEL KALLA: That is correct. Yes.

MG: How's that doctor doing?

DANIEL KALLA: He's doing well. It's fine. He's had like a flu, like illness. Right. And obviously has been knocked down. But he's been taking an opportunity to, you know, to just share a story and to be active and to help others. And he's turned this into a very productive time to make something useful of it.

MG: You know, I've spoken with a lot of doctors in the last several weeks. And one of the things that they've said, there's a sense of inevitability around this that people feel if you're working on the front lines, that it's getting closer and closer. Do you feel that?

DANIEL KALLA: Yes, a little bit. I find this, this disease has been obviously makes us, health care workers, incredibly vulnerable, but it also causes this rapid cycle of emotion. And in part for me speaking personally, it's sort of, you know, energized and the camaraderie and the sense of we're all in together almost a wartime feel feeling is credible and we think we've got this. We're organised, you know, and then you read the horrific stories of systems like New York and Italy, where it's overwhelmed. So many doctors have been affected. And then it really hits home. When you hear about an emergency doctor in New Jersey dying, when you hear about 60 doctors in Italy dying. So, you know, it sort of fluctuates.

MG: Your hospital is the closest one to the Downtown Eastside in Vancouver. You have a lot that's going on. And you're usually kept busy with with what's happening there when it comes to an overdose crisis and an opioid crisis. What does that look like now in treating that vulnerable population? We've been talking about how there's not really any opportunity there for social distancing because the sidewalks are narrow and that community is being squeezed by by gentrification and development. So what are you up against there?

DANIEL KALLA: It's a great question. I mean, we view that for those poor, vulnerable, disenfranchised patients, as you know, that we view them as sitting ducks. So far, we haven't seen any major outbreaks in that community. But we take a very different approach to our patients with NFA, no fixed address. So the homeless patients and the patients who are in the Downtown Eastside, but the substance using, we're more aggressive about monitoring them, you know, and trying to ensure that they're not COVID positive to swallow the ones that are most vulnerable. And just hope that we can keep it out of that community. You're absolutely right. The risk is spread is so high, there.

MG: Sitting ducks.

DANIEL KALLA: Well, I was going to say I don't mean that in the judgemental--

MG: No, no, no. I wasn't saying that.

DANIEL KALLA: Like, it's absolutely truly just a huge vulnerability. They deal with so much, you know? And also, there are other needs, like you mentioned, the opioid crisis and the addiction problems there and the mental health, drug problems. They just can't get the same attention that they did before COVID.

MG: You were out of the hospital before this arrived working on on writing. Is that correct?

DANIEL KALLA: Well, I was supposed to be. I was on. It was my big month of sabbatical. And I had huge plans for writing. I was never going to step foot inside the hospital for a month, I delegated everything. But when it started, it was so clear that, you know, especially from my administrative the department head role, I've been in the hospital pretty much every day. I've only worked clinically a couple of shifts, but it's all hands on deck. And there's so many; the operational decisions, the planning decisions that are just so essential. I've never better earned my administrative salary than I have in the past month.

MG: You wrote a piece for The Globe and Mail in which you said that in a surreal way, I feel as though I have stepped into the early chapters of one of my novels.

DANIEL KALLA: Yes. I mean, absolutely. You know, now it's becoming more of a later chapter. But you know, so much of when you're writing a medical thriller, especially as I've written about pandemics and trying to do, is to establish the fear in the sense of the unknown and that kind of ticking time bomb sentence. And that was especially three or four weeks ago when reports of other countries where it was starting to get really bad and we would just have sporadic cases. And everybody just felt, you know, it's just it's more than just your exposure and realising that you're at risk. It's also the absolute unknown which where we're going to go. You know how many of this is going to affect. And so it's exactly like I tried to imagine when I was writing those books.

MG: When you write those books, I'm assuming this there's a lot of research that goes in to add to the medical knowledge that you have given that research. Were you surprised by the arrival of COVID-19?

DANIEL KALLA: No. You know, it's a great question. I mean, it'd be like being surprised that an earthquake ever came up or there was ever a tsunami. I mean, these are cyclical events. You know, in a way, the world is very lucky. There are a few pandemics we've had in the last hundred years have been on global scale, incredibly mild. H1N1 was a tempest in a teapot. And but, you know, the mothers of all pandemics the Black Death and the Spanish flu, which I've written about in both those novels, you know, those were just cataclysmic devastations. The worst natural disasters really ever hit man in time. And it's it's so predictable that one would come, but it's a little like an earthquake in a sense, when it hits. It's just so shocking, like how this brushfire has taken off across the planet. Even in my wildest dreams that, I tell people in my novels, at least they have happy endings. It gets dark, before it reaches this stage. And so I am absolutely shocked by how it's just circled the planet.

MG: Is that the most surprising thing to you, that the pace of this pandemic?

DANIEL KALLA: Absolutely. So the thing is, Matt, is four months old this entire thing. It's a baby. Like how it went, you know, from Wuhan China in late November to the tip of Africa. It's just staggering how quickly it's crossed the planet to me.

MG: And yet and again, this is from the piece that you wrote in The Globe, you say that you feel bolstered by a sense of understanding and preparedness. How prepared are we, do you think, for this?

DANIEL KALLA: You know, I think we all always could. You know, I always said it was like when we had SARS here and Toronto was so badly affected, and H1N1. The community, both the medical scientific with especially the public community, was so aware and there was such heightened sense of vigilance about it. But as soon as that passed, it was like everybody forgot. That's never going to happen again. And we suffered from a little bit of that effect. I think we all, all hospitals, have pandemic planning and natural disaster planning. But we could have been more prepared. But what I'm so impressed by, at least in Vancouver, at my hospital, St. Paul's, my local region of Vancouver Coastal, is how quickly, how quickly we kicked into action, how we cleared out the surgical wards and cleared out the hospitals, made space. I mean, everything is being done on the fly and it's you know, so maybe it's not preparedness. Maybe it's just the fact that we've responded so quickly and I think really well in Canada. I mean, as well as we can.

MG: You said that that strategy that we formulate around these health crises should be similar to our approach to the pandemic. And the health crises I mentioned are things like what we're talking about when it comes to the Downtown Eastside, but also larger issues around homelessness and social isolation and an opioid epidemic that's going right across the country. What could we learn about what we're in now that would help us address some of those bigger systemic issues that were around before the pandemic arrived and we'll be around after the pandemic leaves us?

DANIEL KALLA: I think we can learn a lot. I, honest to God, believe, as you mentioned the last time, my next novel is all about the opioid crisis. I really delved into the criminal underbelly, the medical aspect, the disaster that it's been. And I still believe when this is all over, more Canadians, young Canadians in particular, will have died from opioid than COVID. I mean, I hope to God [unintelligible] Canadians stop because those deaths have already happened and the COVID ones are only theoretical. And I think what we've learned is that when we throw everything into a problem, when we respond with compassion, when we respond with partnership, when we invest what we need to, we can find a solution. And, you know, and I think that's one. I think there are, you know, as terrible as this sounds, because nobody in the world would want COVID and the devastation. I think there are some positives that can emerge from it. And, you know, I think we're seeing some great signs of human nature, great signs of human ingenuity work across the world that working on innovative solutions. And I think if we apply that kind of drive and commitment to curb terrible crises like homelessness, like poverty, and especially the opioid crisis, we could really make a dent and really solve it in a more substantial way than we have so far.

MG: You talked about fear and not just fear in your books, but also fear in terms of what's happening elsewhere in the world. How do you manage that fear?

DANIEL KALLA: I don't know. I mean, that's a great question. I worry that the entire world is set up for post-traumatic stress disorder after this is over because we live in such a state of fear and unknown. I think there's a few things. I think information to a point is very helpful. Misinformation, and that's a big problem with COVID, it is not, I mean, there's so many and that's similar in my research into the Black Death. It reminds me of the rumours that, you know, all the superstitions around the Black Death. You see some of that was COVID. So good information from respectable sources I think helps a lot in managing fear. And I think for our group at St. Paul's, we started just talking about doing mindfulness exercise and maybe meditation and just things that that take you out of the moment to take you out of the news cycle and let you get in touch with yourself and and recharge the batteries.

MG: How important is that? It's interesting. We had a conversation, it feels like a couple of weeks ago now with an emergency room physician here in Toronto who also teaches meditation and talked about the importance of that in his life and in his emergency department. Were you started by saying that you're tired and this is an exhausting time to be in the work that you're doing? How important is that mental health aspect of what you are involved in right now to ensure that your teams are prepared to deal with what we're facing?

DANIEL KALLA: Well, I think it's hugely important. You know, and just to put in a plug, I cannot tell you how impressed I am, you know, particularly proud of my own hospital, St. Paul's. But the hospitals across the region and across the country, the staff, you know, I use the example that the staff is rather than running away from a burning building, they're running towards it. They have they have been there. People have stepped up right, left and centre, gone beyond. In my hospital, there's not a shift. PNobody is giving up shift. People are picking them up. People are coming in. And it is exhausting. Just apart from the fear that you mentioned and the sense of vulnerability, just that what we call donning and doffing, putting on and off the PPE is it's so cumbersome, it's uncomfortable. And, you know, and they do that day in, day out and deal with this extra stress and the worry of their patients. And all of that is incredibly exhausting. So you need some kind of outlet, you know, and that's one of the things I worry about this, depending on how long this pandemic goes on, how long it continues to be a day to day threat, the burnout rate on people, because right now I can't tell you how impressed I am by the way people are rising up. But you can't do that forever. Eventually you will burn out.

MG: Do you think you'll write about this?

DANIEL KALLA: Oh Probably. Yes, I mean, I think certainly I've learned, you know, this is the kind of emotion that I try to channel in my writing, to give people this behind the scenes look at what it's like on the other side of the curtain. But I think everybody seeing the curtains being pulled back and I think we're all getting exposed to it.

MG: How would you rate the ending?

DANIEL KALLA: Well, at my endings are way happier than what so far have been in this result. But I still I'm still confident that there's gonna be a happy ending with COVID. And as I said earlier, I think some good things for humanity. I'm seeing some of the better angels of people come out. And so I would write the ending that, yes, it pushed us very near the brink to what we pushed back and we learned from it.

MG: Art imitates life and vice versa sometimes. It's great to talk to you. Take care of yourself and thanks for the work that you're doing.

DANIEL KALLA: Thanks so much, Matt.

MG: Dr. Daniel Kalla is a novelist. He's also head of emergency medicine at St. Paul's Hospital in Vancouver. His latest book is called The Last Hi. It's a thriller about the opioid crisis. And it is out for your quarantine reading next month.

[Music].

MG: It's The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. There is a lot of well intentioned advice out there from how to treat a stain to how to bake a cake. A lot of good baking bread advice when it comes to sour dough. We'll get to that perhaps next week on the current. Things start to get dangerous, though, when that advice is about your health. Bogus cures and tips to prevent coronavirus are circulating online. Separating fact from fiction can be tricky. Andrea Bellemare is with CBC's COVID-19 Fact Checking Unit. Andrea. Good morning. Good morning, Matt. What are you hearing from people this week when it comes to things that they're seeing and things are concerned about?

ANDREA BELLEMARE: Well, you know, we're seeing a lot of things that keep recirculating. One of the things is there's a chain e-mail that's going around. It has a list of rituals that you should touch upon and you should do. But there are things that, I mean, I personally wouldn't want to do them. Like one of them was that you might want to gargle with lemon water or vinegar in order to prevent getting coronavirus. And things like that would just be very disgusting. We're also seeing very interestingly, actually, earlier this week, we were talking about chiropractic. So we've seen chiropractors talking about the immune boosting benefits of spinal adjustment. And, you know, there's no scientific evidence for that. But it was really, really widespread and was actually quite surprising to see that we were seeing so much of this. And, you know, it's also can be put people at risk because they might go and get a spinal adjustment thinking that they are boosting their immune system. And that's just not happening.

MG: Well, there was so much, in fact, that there were provincial government governing bodies that were calling a chiropractors to stop making these claims. Has that stopped the posts from appearing?

ANDREA BELLEMARE: Well, it seems so. And as you mentioned, too, we actually heard from Alberta, B.C., Manitoba, Quebec, Ontario, and the national governing body of chiropractic associations, all warning practitioners that there's no link to any kind of immune system boost and spinal manipulation. And so one of the things is that we have seen a lot of those posts being removed. And just to get a sense of the numbers on the Ontario governing body to College of Car practise, Ontario told us that since March 2nd, they had sent 54 cease and desist letters. So we have seen one of those posts removed. But in some cases, for example, one chiropractor that we noticed, they then went and created a private Facebook group for members. So I don't really know what's going on in that group, but that's something that we saw since they had taken down videos saying that there might be an immune boost that you can get from going to see a chiropractor. So it's something that we're looking at. But there's just there's a lot of practitioners. So it's hard to sort of keep an eye on everybody.

MG: You mentioned that gargling lemon juice and vinegar, which does sound kind of gross. What are some of the other easily debunked tips that are out there that are circulating widely?

ANDREA BELLEMARE: Oh, one. There's videos going around that heat can kill the virus once it's in your body. And there are suggestions that you might want to use a hair dryer or steamier face to try to kill the virus in your nose. And that's a really bad idea. Could put you at risk, for burn example. I shouldn't laugh. But I mean, it just you know, people obviously are seeking out information because they're anxious and they're scared and they're hoping that they can find something that can protect them. Another easily debunked video that we saw this week, actually, and it had over a million views on Facebook. Was the idea that you could create an end ninety five months out of a bra. And you could make a mask out of a bra if that's something that you wanted to do. But it would not have the same protective factors that N95 mass does, which is created to very certain standards. It's meant to stop very small particles from going through. You have to get fitted for that, fitting process can take up to half an hour or so. You just can't get the same protection from abroad.

MG: What is your process of going through the fact checking to make sure that what is being disseminated either is going to work for people or needs to be called out?

ANDREA BELLEMARE: Well, one of the first things is I admit that I am not a health care expert. So we spend a lot of time calling people and saying, you know, this is what we're seeing. Like, what is actually the science behind this? So we've talked to doctors, epidemiologists, all sorts of people and asked them about that. Another thing is that we're kind of look for sort of hints that maybe what we're seeing isn't true. So a common thing is that we'll see posts that are attributed to an unnamed friend of a friend or relative who might work in health care, especially health care in China. But there's no name associated with it. So immidiately you go, oh, that seems suspicious. And another thing is sometimes doctors are named. So then we quickly will Google the name of that doctor. And sometimes you can't find a doctor who exists with that name because usually doctors have a page on a provincial or a federal body. And they will have a website. They will have content. They might have a Twitter account so often that they're easy to find.

MG: Dr. Jen Gunter is an obstetrician gynaecologist. She's done a lot of work researching medical claims. Have a listen to her advice for separating fact from fiction.

[sc].

So if somebody is sharing something from Health Canada or they're sharing something from your local health department or, you know, then you need to go and check that information on a valid site. And the other thing that I'd be super careful about with social media is we all mistake repetition for accuracy. And this is a phenomenon called the illusory truth effect. So when you're on Facebook and you see that post circulating five, 10, 15 times from all your different friends who are sharing it, you can see how that sticks with us, because we're all vulnerable to that. Even physicians. Trust me. So it's always important to to validate every single thing that you read.

[/sc].

MG: She's talking in some ways about social media. What about in the comments section? You'll often see misinformation, disinformation shared in the comments on news stories. What about here at the CBC? What are we doing to stop that from happening?

ANDREA BELLEMARE: Well, it's actually this is actually a really great development. So this week we are starting to moderate comments for disinformation and misinformation. And so we're just ramping up. And I should be clear that this is a combination of people. And we also have an automated term that we'll be looking for. And one of the things that we've done is we've compiled a database. We have a list of a bunch of stories that have facts in them. And so we can compare those two comments that are made on stories so readers can flag them. I can also go in and flag code comments. And I just think that's really useful because I don't know about you, but I actually do enjoy reading the comments and you get really interesting things. But it's also a place where people will spread misinformation. And so, you know, this is, I'm really excited about it. It's a good way for us to flag that. And I should mention, it's not just on our online stories, but it's also going to be on our social media platforms. So our Facebook pages, for example.

MG: And to Jen Gunther's point to me just in the last minute that we have, if people are reading things and they're wondering, is this too good to be true, what's the word of advice for them so that they might be able, just by looking at a post to get a better sense as to whether it's accurate or not?

ANDREA BELLEMARE: So, I mean, I'm always approach things with scepticism. If someone says something to me, I'll go. How do you know that? Where did where did you find that out? And if they say, oh, well, the government said it, then I quickly go to Google or enter that term. I'll enter, for example, if it's the federal government or Health Canada and I'll try to see what comes up. Another thing you can do is just enter the term, for example, like lemon water and then fact-check, because often that information has already been fact checked. That'll pop up really quickly in Google.

MG: Somebody may have done that work for you and you can connect those dots. Andrea, thank you. We'll talk again.

ANDREA BELLEMARE: Thanks, Matt.

MG: Andrea Bellemare is a reporter with CBC's COVID-19 fact checking unit coming up in about 90 seconds. We are going to turn our attention to China, where in some parts of that country, normal life is starting to return and people are getting back to their day to day routines. There is some doubt, though, on China's numbers when it comes to the coronavirus. We'll take a look at why U.S. intelligence sources don't trust China's stated death toll. My name's Matt Galloway. You're listening to an extended edition of The Current on CBC Radio One. We're back in about a minute and a half. Stay with us.

Back To Top »

Canada Pension Plan board president says the retirement fund is safe, despite economic downturn, China and case counting

Guests: Mark Machin, Nick Wadhams, Lynette Ong

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to the current. It is top of mind for many, many Canadians with predictions of an impending and perhaps prolonged recession. How is this pandemic going to affect your retirement pension? Mark Manchin is the president of the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board. Mark, good morning.

MARK MACHIN: Good morning, Matt.

MG: You control the retirement funds, through the board of many, many Canadians. This is something that people are worried about as they see the stock market fall through the floor, as they see jobs disappear and so many people trying to figure out how they're going to pay the bills month over month. How is this economic downturn going to affect the Canada Pension Plan?

MARK MACHIN: Well, look, I think the first message is for Canadians, is this is one thing they should take off their list to worry about. The fund is in strong shape. It was designed to weather these types of significant market downturns once in a while. And so the fund in the system is going to be strong and robust and there's no doubt that it will be sustainable and that it will be there to pay people's pensions over time.

MG: If you listen carefully, you can hear people sigh with relief I think across the country in hearing that. Can you explain how that is the case? Because, again, the economic fallout is already being felt. So how is it that the CPPIB would be insulated by that?

MARK MACHIN: So the fund is it is the money we manage isn't not completely insulated. So obviously as markets go down, it's likely that the funds that we have will go down. But we do a number of things. First of all, we diversified the monies. We haven't got all our eggs in one particular market or one particular type of investment. And that provides some cushion. So, for example, generally when the stock market goes down, the bond market, the government bond market will strengthen. And so that provides some offsets. Another example would be we hope that certain of the markets and in Asia are coping with this better. I wouldn't say they're at the tail end of it, but they're coping with it better and therefore, they're getting back to work or they're maintaining work. And so those markets and economies are doing better. Well, for example, the North American markets, we're unfortunately on the, you know, the rising wave here. And so these markets, it's going to be, you know, that the hits to come here for the economies and markets here. So by spreading our bets around, our investments, around by diversifying in that way, we can protect and dampen the declines in the fund over time.

MG: How much of our money is invested in oil and gas? Because we've seen the price of oil again drop lower and lower and lower. The gas sector taking a huge hit as well. How much of our money is there?

MARK MACHIN: Yes, not not so much. It's about 3 percent of the fund overall is exposed to that sector. So it's not it's not a huge amount. You know, I do sympathize with people in western Canada who, in this industry, which has just got it. It's just the most appalling double whammy. The double hit here of being hit by both this spat between Saudi Arabia and Russia which has really depressed the oil price globally, and then just on the demand side from just the economies and the world shutting down. So it's a really tough time for that industry. But yeah, from the fund's point of view, it's not really material.

MG: Where are you investing the pension money of Canadians?

MARK MACHIN: Yeah. So it's invested, I'd say,broadly around the world, which helps. If we just depended on the Canadian economy, obviously that's going to have unfortunately a tough time for the next few quarters. So but we're invested in the rest of North America, South America, Europe and we're invested in Asia. And we're invested in I say bonds and we're also invested in private assets like infrastructure, relatively safe things generally on the infrastructure front like roads and ports and electricity and those types of things.

MARK MACHIN: What about things like airports? I mean, there you see now essentially not the end of air travel, but air travel largely around the world has been put on pause. No one knows what it's going to look like whenever we get out of this. Are we in that world?

MARK MACHIN: No, we're not invested in airports. I wouldn't say that was by brilliant design. But we always found when we tried to buy an airport that it was too expensive. From our point of view. So we don't own any airports in the world.

MG: What are the industries that are you mentioned a couple of things in terms of infrastructure, what are industries that are doing better now than others? Because it seems as though from a distance that everybody is taking this hit.

MARK MACHIN: There are industries that are doing fine and there's, for example, anything to do with our delivery and logistics, particularly at home ordering things so e-commerce and groceries. If you try and order some groceries, people will find that the wait times are enormous because they just full up. Things like Netflix, you know, people are watching huge amounts of home movies right now. I think home, health as well. So those types of things. And then, one company we've invested in Europe that is a flavour and fragrance company that's benefited from two things. One is the rise in the buying of toilet paper and tissues because it puts the fragrance in that and also canned soup. So there's been a lot of buying a canned soup. So the flavour that goes into that also came from this company. So there's certain companies that are doing well. But it's a narrow slice of companies. And generally there's lots of companies, whether it's in travel or leisure or sports, etc., that are obviously going to suffer quite a lot. And then there's a lot in between that are going to just have dampened demand and dampened ability to do business, because all the economies in the world are shut down.

MG: How different do you think the global economy will be when we get out of this?

MARK MACHIN: Well, you know, we're predicting that the world is going to rebound reasonably strongly next year, so this year we think the second quarter of this year is going to be a really painful one.

MG: Are you predicting a recession?

MARK MACHIN: Yes. So we're predicting that for the world for this year, we'll be down about 2.4 percent growth. And Canada is going to be particularly badly hit in the second quarter of this year. So over 20 percent decline annualized for GDP growth. So it's going to be a very steep recession. But we think by the fourth quarter, it should be growing strongly again. And by next year, we see the world rebounding. So the world growing almost 7 percent next year is our current number. And Canada growing over 4 percent for next year. But I think, you we've got months ahead of us to get through this.

MG: But again, if you go back to, I know we aren't invested in that, but things like airports, travel, tourism, international trade, how people think about the connected nature of the world. Do you think that that will be different once we get out of this?

MARK MACHIN: You know, I think it is likely people will slowly emerge from this. First of all, when is the end of it. So I think you need a vaccine or some really effective treatment for that to be a complete all clear.

MARK MACHIN: And that to you will be the sign that this is over?

MARK MACHIN: That's the sign when it's totally all clear. I think this time and between likely some of these Asian economies. So figuring out where you can get back to work, but with really careful controls and testing and making sure that people are safe as they go back to work. But I don’t think behavior can go completely back to normal until everybody is safe no matter what. And that I think is, you know, sometime next year. So I think once that happens, though, I I'm more sceptical of the predictions that everything changes forever. I remember back I was living in Asia back to in the time of SARS. And during that, people said, oh, we're never going to be doing business travel again. Everybody will go to videoconferences. People won't travel so much anymore. And surprise surprise, people go back to it because we're all social people. We like to meet people. We like to go to busy restaurants. We like to go to movie theatres and sit next to people we're not really even going to talk to just to share an experience. That's human nature. We all love those shared experiences. My guess is, you know, sometime late next year, we'll all be back doing the same thing, perhaps doing it even more because there may be a bit of a rebound. People have been so pent up sitting in their homes that they, you know, they want to go around and really enjoy life.

MG: Bit of reassurance. We'll take that, Mark. Good to speak with you. Thank you.

MARK MACHIN: Pleasure.

MG: Mark Machin is the president of the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board.

[Music]

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One, my name is Matt Galloway. This weekend will be an especially poignant one in China where this whole outbreak began late last year. Tomorrow has been declared a national day of mourning for the victims of the pandemic. It's also the Ching Ming Festival, the tomb sweeping day, a time to honour deceased ancestors. And according to reports, funeral homes in Hubei Province have been working overtime to ensure that families can receive the cremated remains of their loved ones before that holiday. But as the Chinese people morn and there are questions being raised about the official death toll there, questions prompted by the sheer number of funerary urns being delivered to Wuhan area funeral homes and by a classified U.S. intelligence report uncovered this week by Bloomberg News. Nick Wadhams is the State Department reporter for Bloomberg. He broke the story. Nick, good morning.

NICK WADHAMS: Morning, thanks for having me.

MG: Thanks for joining us. Briefly tell us what this classified U.S. intelligence report said about China and allegations of underreporting when it comes to the numbers around COVID-19.

NICK WADHAMS: So essentially the conclusion is, is simply that that the U.S. intelligence community believes that China was systematically and deliberately underreporting its coronavirus numbers. Obviously, there have been a lot of suspicions about the numbers coming out of China and frankly in many countries. But a lot of that in the past has been put down to methodology, how you count cases, inability to test, things of that nature. But this was sort of a formal conclusion by the intelligence community based on information. In some cases from within China, from assets within China. But a general conclusion that the undercount in China was deliberate was intentional by the government there.

MG: Why would the government do that?

NICK WADHAMS: Lots of reasons. Potentially one to play down the full extent of the crisis. You know, obviously in the beginning the United States and other countries had accused China of masking the full extent of the problem. There was a sense that that China could get it under control itself. They were, according to the U.S. government, barring American experts from going to China to get a full read, to be able to track what was going on there. And then further on, you know, we've had this sort of crazy situation where the numbers but the death count and also the infection counts have become almost a political football where you got a lot of attention for the United States after its cases, its case count surpassed China. So you sort of people are starting to play politics with those numbers.

MG: We reached out to the Chinese embassy in Canada to get their response. We didn't hear back. But broadly, how has China responded to this report?

NICK WADHAMS: Well, with vehement denials, it needs to be said. After our report came out the next day in Beijing, the foreign ministry held one of its regular press conferences. And they said that this intelligence report, and also the timing of the story - you know, we just sort of chase the news and report it when we feel comfortable with a story. I had been hearing these concerns for four weeks, actually, and then it just took this long to be able to pin it down. They say that this is an effort by the intelligence community to shift blame. Now that the United States is leading the world in a number of confirmed cases.

MG: Isn't it within the U.S. presence interests to blame China? He's been doing that almost since this talk of the virus began.

NICK WADHAMS: Well, yes, he has blamed China, though one of the more interesting elements of this, though, is the president and the administration writ large has really shifted its tone on China. So he was very antagonistic with talk of the China virus. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo repeatedly called it the Wuhan virus. But in the last week, we've seen this real shift in tone where they want to play nice, I think in part because they realised that a shoving match with China right now looks bad, but also is counterproductive to the broader effort to fight the virus. And also the fact that U.S. supply chains are so dependent on China for years that there's a critical shortage of here, like masks.

MG: It started to play out here in Canada as well, and partially because Canada received a shipment of that gear from China. But also yesterday, the federal minister of health, Patti Heidi, who was asked about this and she says there's no indication that China is falsifying its data. Have a listen to how she responded to a reporter who asked whether China had been reporting false numbers.

SOUNDCLIP

I would say that your question is feeding into the conspiracy theories that many people have been perpetuating on the Internet. And it's important to remember that there is no way to beat a global pandemic if we're actually not willing to work together as a global.

MG: What do you make of Patty Hydra's response here that this feeds into a conspiracy theory?

NICK WADHAMS: I mean, I am not quite sure what to say. I mean, all I can tell you is, you know, the intelligence report in the US was sort of the formal assessment from the CIA. You know, there have been a lot of concerns throughout about the way that China and, as I mentioned, many countries have reported their figures. I mean, only in the last few days, China started reporting officially figures of people who had the virus but were not showing symptoms previously. They were not reporting those numbers. Those were classified. So you've already started to see and in response to some pressure from other countries, China changing the methodology in the way that it reports those figures. So, you know, there have long been concerns about accurate counts in countries around the world. I mean, the intelligence community also said that other countries in the Middle East, India, Egypt, for example, it was also believed they were underreporting their figures. There's a lot of information that maybe the U.S. may be underreporting the full extent of the crisis. But all I can tell you is, I mean, this is sourcing we had from several people inside the government. Obviously, we make a lot of efforts to make sure we're not being played by anybody. We stand by the report.

MG: There's also reporting that's coming out in The Globe and Mail here in Canada this morning. Nathan VanderKlippe, among others, reporting around questions about the impartiality of the W.H.O. and its relationship with China. What do you know about that?

NICK WADHAMS: I mean, this has been a long running issue early on in the crisis the W.H.O. took a fair amount of criticism because it said that China was doing the right thing and doing well in in its efforts to control the virus. And some of those early efforts were seen as very extreme. You know, essentially a full lockdown. So this is I know for a fact that that is a feeling that's shared by some folks within the Trump administration. But there's also within that some hostility toward international organizations writ large. The United States, for example, funds about 22 percent of the World Health Organization's budget.

MG: How much time how much does China Fund do we know?

NICK WADHAMS: I think it's about a tenth of that, so far less. But, you know, the W.H.O. has to walk a very delicate line because like all U.N. agencies, it has to respond to all members of the United Nations that all its constituent member countries. So when the virus was predominantly in China before I headed down to the rest of the world, the W.H.O. had an obligation to work with and get along and co-operate with China. Now that it's spread elsewhere, obviously it has to take many other factors into account. But, you know, so that concern has always been there as part of a broader sense that China is trying to expand its own influence in multilateral organizations across the UN system in the U.S. and other countries are really starting to push back against them.

MG: Good to speak with you. Thank you.

NICK WADHAMS: My pleasure.

MG: Nick Wadhams is the State Department reporter for Bloomberg News. He's in Washington, D.C. Lynnette Ong has been listening in. She's a China expert, professor of political science with the Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy, the University of Toronto. Lynnette. Good morning to you.

LYNETTE ONG: Hi, Matt.

MG: Do you trust the numbers that we've been getting from China when it comes to COVID-19?

LYNETTE ONG: I think the ice is three pieces to the puzzle. Number one, we know that there has been a cover up at the beginning from. So they knew they knew about this probably in late November or late December, but did not tell the country, did not tell the people until late January. So this one, there's a one month delay. And secondly, I think there's the capacity and technical issue like everywhere else, such as in in the states or even in Ontario. There's a shortage of test kits in January and February, particularly in Wuhan. So the government was not able to test a lot of people. A lot of cases went unnoticed. Some people even diedat home without being classified as COVID-19 cases. So in that sense, you can even count those cases. And people who wanted to get help to go to hospitals, they were being turned away. So we have cases like that, which is due to capacity and technical issue, which is also happing happening everywhere else around the world now. But there's a third piece of the puzzle is that the way in which the Chinese government has been measuring this to success also change more than once in the last couple of months. And we know that this is actually not new. This is how, you know, Chinese statistics, if anyone have deals with it, often change from year to year for a reason that is not usually known is probably because of the way that the bureaucrats deal with it. So, I mean, there is reason to cast doubt on those statistics are how accurate it is. But I would also say that that is true for a lot of statistics, studies coming out from a lot of other countries.

MG: Patty Hajdu, the health minister, said that if we are questioning these figures, that that feeds into conspiracy theories?

LYNETTE ONG: I'm not sure whether I would call that conspiracy theories. I think it is always a good thing to raise questions about statistics. Any statistics that we come across. But I think the larger context is that the United States and China have been trading insults about in a way the virus originally and tried to put blame on each other. And I think in this environment, that is that is really not helpful.

MG: Is there something in it for China? If the numbers look lower than they actually are. Nick hinted at this. But from your perspective, as somebody who studies in political science and international relations, is there something in it for China?

LYNETTE ONG: It what it will look it will look like China is less is less to blame if the numbers come out lower from China. That will be the logical conclusion. But, you know, I think there are arguments that could go both ways. And at this stage, I don't think we should be putting too much resources into placing blame. I'm not saying that that shouldn't be done. But I think that our resources could be better deployed in finding a collective solution to the problem.

MG: We spoke with a reporter in Wuhan last week and he talked about how life is starting to return, return to normal in that city. That city was at the centre of the initial outbreak. Now we're hearing that there may be some further restrictions as people worry about the return of the virus. But how confident are you that China largely has the situation under control now?

LYNETTE ONG: I am a little bit concerned because I think the government, especially local governments, a lot of them are under a lot of pressure to resume economy books because a lot of them, whether they are being evaluated based on local economic growth. So to get people go back to factories, go back to retail shops, consume to work, they need to lower infection rates. That is how to get life back to normal. So the risk taking behaviour. But if you were to take that risk to a larger extent, it would also increase the risk of getting people infected. But then again, this is a strong capacity state. They are able to put in to putting in place control that a lot of countries, even Canada, couldn't do so, so effectively.

MG: There is a huge festival that's happening this weekend in China about honouring ancestors. Just briefly, what's involved in that?

LYNETTE ONG: So it's Qingming festival that is being observed by Chinese people not only in China, but those of Chinese ancestry across Asia. It's a very big festival. So typically people go back to their hometown or rural villages to pay respects to those who have died. I would I would expect a number of this year the travellers will be way down in the previous year.

MG: I guess the concern from some people is that if there are even, you know, and if it's not the full extent, but there are still in a country of a billion plus people, millions of people moving around, that that could lead to further infection. Is that a legitimate, valid concern?

LYNETTE ONG: That is a legitimate concern. But also, bear in mind that a lot of people have just returned from their home villages to back to the cities to work. And that just happened a week ago. So I would imagine these people would be very reluctant to go back to their home provinces.

MG: When you look at this and again, I know that you're not a health expert, but politically, what is the importance of getting the most accurate information that we can get about this virus, whether it's coming out of China, whether you're talking about, well, what's happening in Iran or other countries as well? How important is it just to get the right numbers so that we know what we're dealing with?

LYNETTE ONG: I think I think it is actually very, very important, because transparency, I think, gives rise to a sense of psychological feeling or even the bottom line of the population. So we know what what is the with worst case scenario so we could prepare. You do not want to paint too rosy a picture in an environment like today. But the other thing to say about the experience of China, as well as a lot of countries, which are a few steps ahead of us, is they are actually very good at contact tracing and using data to keep the infection rate low. So if people had been following the tracking tools put up by by Financial Times and other companies, you know, they started off much earlier, but they have also managed to flatten the curve, yet they are able to do a much better job than a lot of Western societies.

MG: So that's part of that control culture that you talked about, where you can do things in China because it's an autocratic state that you might never do here.

LYNETTE ONG: Not necessarily. But even countries like Taiwan and South Korea which is a democratic society. But they are trust in the way that government use the data. For instance, in Hong Kong, people who come in in the last two weeks have been asked to wear an electronic wristband that the government portrays them. In Taiwan, the government uses cell phone data. In Singapore, it's just old fashioned detective work. People with medical knowledge, working with the police, tracking people down, you know, whom they have been in contact with in the last two weeks. And I think, you know, people in this country are legitimately concerned about privacy issues. I think that's very legitimate. But there's a menu of options to choose from, which I think we should be thinking about it, because we are in this for the medium haul, not the long term. Yes, of course, we have second wave, third wave. We should be thinking about a tool that we can use to track people down if necessary.

MG: Lynette Ong, great to talk to you. Thank you.

LYNETTE ONG: Thank you so much.

MG: Lynnette Ong is an associate professor of political science at the University of Toronto and the Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy. Coming up in about six minutes after the CBC News, we're going to speak with science journalist Deborah Blum. We all might think we're armchair scientists these days. Let's actually talk to scientists who can communicate what we should know and what we need to know. I Matt Galloway. This is an extended edition of The Current on CBC Radio One.

Back To Top »

'It's a process of discovery': Advice about COVID-19 will change and that's fine, science reporter says

Guests: Deborah Blum, Lisa Lou

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Still to come, it's not all essential workers are in health care, meet the non-medical staff working through this pandemic. You'll hear their stories coming up in half an hour. But first, skepticism 101. Our crash course begins right now.

[Music: Theme].

MG: It is easily one of the most fraught ways to start a sentence. A new study says those four words can bring on excitement, confusion, false hope, even fights with your in-laws. Now, more than ever, it is important to use those words properly. Deborah Blum is the director of the Knight Science Journalism Project at M.I.T. She knows there's a lot of medical research and jargon in the news right now. She's going to help all of us digest those big words and numbers. Deborah, good morning.

DEBORAH BLUM: Good morning. It's great to be here.

MG: It's great to have you with us, because this is important. If you take a look at what is out there right now in the news, are you surprised by how much science in medicine is being treated as the way that we would treat other news stories and just being incorporated into everything that we're talking about in our everyday language?

DEBORAH BLUM: Well, as a longtime science journalist, that's something I wish happened all the time. Science is part of our everyday lives in countless ways, and the more we understand that, the more we're able to be smart in navigating the world around us. But I wouldn't wish it to happen through a global pandemic.

MG: No, and neither would I. What do you see is the role of science journalists right now in this time?

DEBORAH BLUM: So I see us as explainers and illuminators and when needed, as skeptical guides to what's being said. I mean, I spend most of my life as a science journalist trying to critically evaluate what research says, trying to decipher what the nuances are in any study and also just trying to be really responsible about what I share and what I don't.

MG: How do you determine what you share and what you don't? That responsibility is a big one and not everybody takes it as seriously as you seem to.

DEBORAH BLUM: So, you know, you referenced early the single study problem in the introduction. And one of the things you learn as a science journalist is that when you see as a new result reported by a single, you have to step back and say, 'but is that going to be confirmed?' Because mostly they aren't. Many, many studies come out are overpromoted sometimes by universities, institutions. And then the next round of research shows that the findings are thinner, are not as realistic. And just to give you a really quick example of that, there have been quite a bit of hyperbole about the use of anti-malarial drugs like hydroxyl chloroquine against the COVID-19. And in fact, that's pushed by a small group in France. You know, we see a shortage in those drugs, now, having said that, you're now starting to see reports from different hospitals saying these aren't aren't actually working very well. We're not getting any response from our patients. And so you need to be very, very careful not to hype it. Write a single report tells you that someone has a finding, but it doesn't say it's been confirmed.

MG: Have a listen to this. This is from a local newscast in Ohio.

SOUNDCLIP

OHIO NEWSCAST: As scientists around the world race to find a corona virus treatment. There is new promise tonight in a new study out of Europe where doctors combine a drug that treats arthritis and malaria with an antibiotic. The name of it is Hydroxide Chloroquine, and it's sold under the brand name [unintelligible], when combined with as it through amazing corona virus patients appeared to improve within days.

DONALD TRUMP: I think it's going to be very exciting. I think it could be a game changer and maybe not, maybe not. But I think it could be.

MG: You laughed.

DEBORAH BLUM: I did at the maybe not. Which is to me the case that in some this you can't you know, maybe it's a game-changer, maybe it's not. But the problem is that people don't hear that 'maybe it's not' for the most part. They hear the 'game-changer'. And so, you know, I mean, I'm against those kind of hyperbolic phrases, but I would really like to advise everyone that if you see a report based on a single study to say, I'm going to get excited about that when it's been confirmed by several other research groups. And for now, I'm just going to, you know, try to track its progress, even.

MG: We heard in there, the U.S. president, Donald Trump, talking about the potential promise of this drug. Broadly, what do you make of how the U.S. government has handled this pandemic?

DEBORAH BLUM: Well, broadly, I am a complete critic of the way the U.S. government has handled this. And that's on multiple fronts. First, the president denied that it was even a legitimate infection. And you've probably seen some of the video of him mocking it, too, in the campaign rallies he can't have anymore. And then that we disbanded our pandemic preparedness task force. So this came to the country unmonitored and unchecked. And now we have almost a quarter of a million cases in this country. We have more than 6000 deaths. And it's not that this is a one-person catastrophe. But the president, his attitude towards science and his refusal to deal with facts sets us back, I think, even to this day in trying to get a grip on.

MG: It's the curious thing about this is you'll often hear and it's in this country, but other countries as well, politicians who will say, we believe in science and they will put the scientists upfront, not the politicians, to speak about this. That seems like an obvious thing to do. How important is that when it comes back to that issue of communicating the facts?

DEBORAH BLUM: So that's a great question and I'm going to give you a nuanced answer. I think that science is basically an investigation of the world around us using highly technical tools in some cases. But it's really people trying to understand the world around us and develop an evidence-based, fact-based understanding of what's going on. And I believe that that is the best thing science does. It provides us with the evidence and the facts to help us at its best right, to help us understand what's happening and to help us make smart choices about how to respond to events like in fact a global pandemic. And I think politicians do an awful lot of happy speak about their belief in science. But and that's great. I mean, we all should respect that science, when it's working right, does all of those things I mean, I added some cautionary principles into that. But do we do best when we're dealing with a crisis in a fact based evidence based way? You betcha. I say in a highly technical way, we absolutely do. And so it's really important to have people both understand what science is. It's a process of discovery. A single study is a point in an ongoing process. It's not a necessarily an end result and it's strictly based on evidence and then confirmation of that evidence. And if we had politicians in which I do not include the US president and so this is me being very politically critical of him who understood how science work, they weren't really would be able, in fact, to use science to make the best informed decisions. And that's true for all of us.

MG: What about for the media? I mean, there are a lot of us journalists who don't have a background in science. And we are asking the politicians and we're asking experts questions how well, he says, do you think the media is doing in understanding the science behind this story?

DEBORAH BLUM: Well, you know, it's interesting because I've seen people recently saying how come we don't have science journalists at the press briefing held by the White House because they would be asking different questions from the political reporters, you know, which is true. And I actually wish they did have a mix of both at those briefings. I think overall, the media has done an absolutely vital and important job of getting information out to the public. And I think I mean, with a few exceptions of highly partisan right wing media companies in the United States, for instance. But overall, you know, I give us a solid B plus to A minus, because I think the fact that almost everyone gets that this is a crisis and that they have to be careful. And I think if I put the United States in a positive way, you see that a vast majority of people are social distancing. Why are they behaving like that? Because the media is getting out the story.

MG: How important is it to say you don't know?

DEBORAH BLUM: it's very important to say ou don't know.

MG: It's one of the hardest things to say in some ways.

DEBORAH BLUM: It is, and you know, we always want to admit that we have all the answers. I mean, I've been doing- we publish in my program a magazine called Under Our [unintelligible]. It is Digital Science magazine, and all of us are pitching in the way journalists do in a crisis. And I'm writing the Q&A answers to readers. And I can't tell you how many times people come in and they say, well, what about this? And I think, well, gee, I don't know that. And so then I have to spend a lot of time doing research and reading through scientific papers and trying to come up with an answer to, you know, why does ultraviolet radiation in the C range work so much better at killing the virus than UVA and UVB from sunlight? Those sort of things. There's just so many fine points. I mean, I think it's really important for me to say I'm not a scientist, I'm a science writer. So and I think it's important to plant your feet and say, 'here's who I'm an ongoing student of science' because that's what science journalists are. And I spend a lot of time researching and checking facts to try to make sure I get it right. But listen to me like a science journalist, not a scientist.

MG: An ongoing student of science. I think that that's how we all feel right now.

DEBORAH BLUM: Yes.

MG: Deborah, it's great to talk to you. I really appreciate your time. Thank you.

DEBORAH BLUM: Thank you. I hope it was helpful. And best of luck to you and everyone there.

MG: Take care of yourself.

DEBORAH BLUM: You, too.

MG: Deborah Blum is a science journalist and the director of the Knight Science Journalism Project at M.I.T.. We reached her in Boston. As I hope you know, we are always delighted to hear from you. And once again, we have had a lot of response to the stories we've been covering. Our senior producer, Karin Marley, is here in studio at a safe. I don't have a yardstick, but you're far enough away. Karin, good morning.

KARIN MARLEY: It's a long table. I think we're okay. Good morning, Matt. So our story on the rent strike, the decision by some tenants that they could or would not pay rent on April 1st got a big response. Janet McGilvray says: Full disclosure. I'm a very, very small landlord. My tenants do not have the same sense of misguided accountability that your guest had. When I reached out to my tenants in mid March, got to plan ahead to ask if COVID-19 would have a negative impact on their ability to meet rent obligations. And what could I do as a landlord to assist them at this time? All responded with Thank you. Not one tenant needed assistance at this time. A message to your guest. Treat others as you would have them treat you. And we will get through this together.

MG: This comes from Christian staff of Campbell River, B.C.: if the government wants to maintain the current system and keep folks in their homes, it needs to stop for now. Rent and mortgage payments for those without a job. If it does not, the disruption to the rental mortgage markets will be significant for all involved. Clearly, banks need to have an income too, but defaults are not serving them either. So how to share the pain? Suspend money flow temporarily for mortgage or rent. And this includes mortgages for landlords. Pick up where you left off once the pandemic has passed.

KARIN MARLEY: Jerry Lall of Guelph, Ontario writes As a realtor and former small landlord, I was struck that one aspect was not discussed. Many, though not all tenants will have last month's rent deposit on account with their landlord. Why not use this now under extraordinary circumstances and then arrange a scheduled repayment when the government emergency payments or wage replacement funds start to flow? The key is communication between responsible tenants and responsible landlords.

MG: Many people also wrote in about our story on long term care. Here's what we heard from Carol O'Brien of Peterborough, Ontario: My daughter works in a long term care facility as a personal support worker. Matt was amazed to hear that residents in Bob cagen were not able to self isolate since they were either in wards with four people or double rooms with only curtains separating them. This is not unusual. Lately, the home where my daughter works is putting the people closer together to make room for hospital patients. They're all eating in the same dining room together. Obviously, social isolation does not apply to long term care homes.

KARIN MARLEY: Linda Poole of Harriet Bay B.C. writes My mother lives in a Long-Term Care Facility on Vancouver Island. She's 94 years old and frail, but mobile with dementia. I asked to discuss a strategy for removing her from the facility and caring for her at my home. If there was a worry of exposure, what I learned is that although I could take her to stay at my home if she were away for longer than 30 days per year, her placement at the facility would be forfeited. I understand that not every family is in a position to care for their elderly relative. However, for the families who would or could do this, it seems unfair to be put in the difficult position of choosing to protect our loved one from exposure to COVID-19, or to leave them in place during the threat of an outbreak.

MG: Erin Hadad of Guelph, Ontario, sent us a thoughtful plea: I encourage you to make greater space in your messaging for honouring the perspectives, knowledge and resilience and dignity of elderly and the elders of our various communities. I say this as a public school teacher who's 34 years old. Elders in many communities, in some families and in a number of indigenous communities are venerated precisely for their wisdom and for their compassion. Today they are reduced to their economic potential or their ability to transmit virus or disease. They are, in fact, the wellspring of our communal health. Sure, the elderly and elders more respect. Protect them with your words and thinking.

KARIN MARLEY: We also had some mail on COVID's its effect on day to day life. Rene Plant of Toronto writes I work in a grocery store and I'm concerned with how many people are still shopping with their partners and even their families. We are working hard to keep people fed and supplied, but we need help to keep ourselves safe. It is important for each household to designate one person to go to the grocery store. We are happy to serve, but we are not a destination for family outings at this time.

MG: Adele Farrel of Ottawa, Ontario writes: Because I am self isolating, I'm doing without a lot of things that I once thought were necessities such as having my hair done, spa treatments, stopping for coffee when the spirit moves me. Having a dental appointment and mall walking to give my guide dog work. Apart from getting my guide dog work and keeping the dental appointments, these all come under the heading of wants. I will never take any of those things for granted again, and I will savour them once I am able to do them.

KARIN MARLEY: On that front, we asked on Twitter, just who does your hair? Well, all physically distant. We hit a nerve with mid-night babbles podcast on Twitter O-M-G. You guys, I was thinking about this this morning while looking at myself in the mirror. I had a chill run through me because it could be months before I get to visit a hairdresser. Hashtag Kinky Hair.

MG: Lizzy S. had a bold suggestion; we could shave our heads and start again.

KARIN MARLEY: I don't think I'll be doing that one, Matt. You?

MG: We're gonna cut my hair this weekend. This is a family project. We have the clippers at the ready and we'll report back Monday.

KARIN MARLEY: My husband has me to cut his hair. I don't think he'll be happy with the result if I do it.

MG: Maybe have the kids do it.

KARIN MARLEY: Exactly.

MG: Karin, thank you.

KARIN MARLEY: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Karin Marley, senior producer here at The Current. Tom Power is the host of Q and he's on the line with us from home. Tom. I picture you working from home, sitting in a rocking chair, sitting by the fire. The cat curled up at your feet. Is that kind of what we're seeing?

TOM POWER: Playing the autoharp and shaving my head. That's exactly what's going on here today.

MG: That's wild times in the Power house. Are you all right? Everything okay?

TP: It's a typical Friday. And, you know, it's like the pandemic that even happened. It's what I'd be doing anyway.

MG: You have a warm and cosy story for us on this Friday morning.

TP: I love this. Liza Lou is a visual artist. She's known for her work with textiles and glass beads. You know, in the past, quilting, you know, kind of all through history has been something that's been done in situations like this. But you don't have a lot around the house and you want to have a memory of what you're doing and you just want to keep warm. So she's encouraging people to weave quilts out of household materials while livestreaming the process. Nice. Yeah, it's beautiful. So we talked about like comfort blankets and why she feels creating a community through quilting is vital right now. Take a listen to this.

[sc].

TP: Liza, I love quilts. I'm so excited to talk to you about this.

LIZA LOU: Yay! I love you, too. I've never made one. I have to full disclosure, I actually never you know, as an artist, it's not. It hasn't been something that I've done. I've riffed on the idea of comfort blankets and made work about them that never actually made one. So I'm on this new kind of thing, too. So we're doing it together.

TP: Let's let's define something here. What's a comfort blanket?

LIZA LOU: Well, I'm referencing my own baby blanket. I was cleaning up, you know, as one does when he's trapped in the home, went through my closet and found my baby blanket as a child on the top shelf. And it was one of these moments where, you know, in the middle of all that's going on, it really it just really spoke to me to have this thing in my arms and to remember what it was like to be a child and think that that blanket could protect you. You know, that kind of like when you have you a little huggy toy. So really comfort blanket is really it can be what you think it is. But for myself, I've been thinking about it in terms of a baby blanket that you carry around with you. Could be the very blanket you have on your bed right now if it's super comforting.

TP: You know, you mentioned you're new to quilting. What I love about this project that you're doing is that quilting, like I think historically has been a thing that anyone's able to do just with stuff lying around their house. So much of art seems inaccessible that you have to be deemed a sort of certain sword on your shoulder and then you're allowed to make art. I love what you're doing here that really anyone can make it.

LIZA LOU: Yes, I think that is. I know that there's kind of a disconnect. Every single child when I when they, you know, loves making. But I think there's a moment where we get told that we're not good at something or some some idea that it's not perfect. But, you know, I find out for myself. All right. So I hated sewing, really hated it as a child because I wasn't good at it. So we tend to pre-select or things like if you're good at something good, meaning you do it a certain way, then you're you know that. Okay. Wow. You've got special skill. You've got special talent. No one was around when I was a kid, though. Oh, my God. Look how crooked that is. That's fabulous. Do more of that. It's so wonderful. So it's interesting to me as an artist, like I said, I now love this kind of imperfection. So the fact that I don't. So doesn't that make me think, oh, I shouldn't I think oh, I should, because I'm going to bring something that's unique to this. I have like I'm going to bring some my imperfection is going to be what's beautiful about this. So that's that opening that I really want to invite people to join in on that kind of like moment where especially in this very fraught moment when we need to have something to do that feels productive right now. But it isn't productive in the sense that this is going to, you know, earn money or it's actually just productive kind of on a level that you can't quantify.

TP: Tell me if people want to get involved in this, if you want them to start making their own comfort blankets from their own home or things they have around the house and they want to do it with you. How did they do it?

LIZA LOU: Well, they go, too. How do I say? What do you do? Start now. Go to your closet. Find old fabric. Get some scraps together. Start really thinking about this idea, that prompt of an idea of making a comfort blanket of your own. And then on my I'm doing all of this on Instagram. My handle is at Liza_lou_studio and I'm kind of doing this live Instagram. It's where I talk about the projects that kind of do these props talking about- my next one I'm gonna talk about how to create a daily continuum, how to kind of keep, you know, to keep things on track and then inviting people who are participating as a way to kind of build community, to always have to do this on Instagram, post what you're making and then to do #apartogether_art. So it's #apartogether_art. That way we can start to archive what people are making on a Web site and it can kind of build as a kind of virtual community. But it is meaningful. It is real. You know, people are already communicating with each other. It is a way to kind of go to have a common project, something that we're sharing. I feel less isolated when, you know, other people are on this as well.

TP: Just before we go, we got about 30 seconds left. But, you know, when this is all over, I mean, please, God, won't be that long. But when this is all over and we're back to normal life and people look back to these comfort blankets, they made the scraps in their house while they were stuck inside. You know what? What do you hope it brings them in reminiscence?

LIZA LOU: Well, each moment that they worked on, it was a moment. And when they're going to remember, they're gone. You know, you always remember that that that moment, what you were feeling, so that it'll be a real connection, a real way to sort of say, during that time I made this thing out of what I had. I was present. So what I was feeling you're gonna have a an artwork that really stands for not only creates comfort, but is about comfort. I think this is such an incredible moment in time that to make a memorial of this moment feels especially important.

TP: Liza Lou, thank you so much for your time.

LIZA LOU: Thank you, Tom.

[/sc].

MG: That's Tom Power speaking with visual artist Liza Lou. Tom, we'll be back in the next half hour of the program coming up in about 90 seconds. And this extended edition of The Current. They're helping to feed you. They're helping to keep society moving. We'll speak with essential workers employed outside of health care. They can't work from home, so they're still going in. We'll talk about what they're facing and why they feel it's important that they continue to go to their jobs. That's coming up in about a minute and a half's time. I Matt Galloway. This is The Current. Stick around.

Back To Top »

Rufus Wainwright

Guests: Rufus Wainwright

[clip] [/clip]

MG: I'm Matt Galloway, our pal Tom Power, host of Q is back. Hello, Tom.

TP: Man, I got to tell you, the nicest thing about the last segment we did where we talked about quilting during this time is how many pictures of quilts I'm getting right now on Twitter.

MG: Good for you. That's excellent.

TP: God, it's amazing.

MG: What will you talk about now?

TP: I'm going to talk about the great up and coming singer songwriter Rufus Wainwright.

MG: I've heard of him.

TP: You know, he got a bright future ahead of him. And, of course, an iconic Canadian songwriter has been since he was about 13 years old. He's been doing robe recitals, Matt.

MG: Excuse me.

TP: Recitals in his robe.

MG: Oh.

TP: You know what I mean. I'm sure you wear a robe on the week. I'm sure it's not all button up shirts and running gear.

MG: I'm an elegant man. And yes, I do occasionally dress in a robe. Sure.

TP: So he's been doing these robe recitals. And even though he's home in his robe, it's still completely compelling. I spoke to Rufus about connecting with his audience online. We talked about his new pop album that's on the way. Here's our conversation.

[sc].

TP: Hey, Rufus.

RUFUS WAINWRIGHT: Hello. Tell me about wro recitals.

TP: Well, it started, I mean, robe recitals started, God, maybe at least over a year ago. When I was you know, every morning I get up and I put on my bathrobe and I practiced the piano for as long as I can. So I get that in. And Yohan started filming me and posting it as just me practicing. And that became quite popular or like a little cinematic moment in my Instagram existence. And then but then, of course, when all this started. We expanded it into an actual song the day where I addressed the audience, the virtual audience. And then I've even done a couple of half hour concerts. So it's yes, it's a platform that thankfully existed and that people were ready to really gravitate towards. And I think it's been quite helpful for everybody.

TP: How are you choosing the songs for the concerts?

RUFUS WAINWRIGHT: And it's been about like as is. Yes. It's been nine days, 10 days since we really did the official, you know - quarantune's I call them - quarantune. And that has been mostly pretty much all my, I would say, hits. I like to say greatest possible hit. But songs that people really know and gravitate towards your.

TP: How are you finding the live performance aspect without an audience?

RUFUS WAINWRIGHT: I don't really draw much of a distinction in the sense that, you know, when I'm singing a song, I'm really trying my hardest to commune with that piece of music and and whether there's an audience that there is and it should be the same goal, you know, just to create something beautiful. And I you know, I think I think that's probably the main difference now, is that, you know, I tend to look at the camera a little bit more or, you know, what I might think of, you know, what the angle is and so forth that Yohan going at. And that's the best or not or how my hair looks. So sort of maybe I'm a little more like Elizabeth Taylor-ish about it at times now.

TP: Making sure your robe is on is on tight.

RUFUS WAINWRIGHT: Yes. Yes. Or not on tight, you know.

TP: Oh, my God.

RUFUS WAINWRIGHT: Depending with the days like. And there's a little something going on there. It's all family fun. But you know, a little bit it's a Tarzan occasionally.

TP: I get it. Rufus, you know you know what a fan I am of yours. And I was so excited to hear you had a new pop record coming out: Unfollow the Rules. We were talking about that last time you were in to talk about posies. Is that still igoing ahead?

RUFUS WAINWRIGHT: Yes. No, I mean, we're doing all the we can. So I've had to cancel a lot of most of my tour so far. But. Yes. And we're still debating, you know, if the album's going to come when it's supposed to which is at the end of April, that may or may not happen in that way. But if it does, it'll come out, you know, soon after that. We're chasing the bit, as they say. But, you know, I've already released about three tracks on this record, and I'm sure others will trickle out as time passes.

TP: I'm excited, too. And II was listening to the new songs an awful lot and I've heard you say stuff like, you want this to be your your Paul Simon's Graceland to your Leonard Cohen's The Future. Are you happy to be back at a pop?

RUFUS WAINWRIGHT: Yes, yes. No, well, I mean, there's a thing in terms of manhood, shall we say, or less typical manhood and everything's up in the air. So people may not relate to the same, but I do feel that there's an odd period like in your, you know, thirties, late thirties, really, where you just start to get really confused about what's going on in the sense like am I I young? Am I old? Am I attractive? Am I repulsive? Just this is kind of an amorphous time. But then when you kind of hit your mid-forties, it really does settle into something that's concrete, you know, that you're you know, you're a man, you're an older man. And, you know, there's a lot you have to come to terms with. But on the other, it's very simple. And I think that musically, it's there is a kind of a tradition with a lot of male artists where - I'm maybe I only say male hours because I'm I've been thinking about it. That's probably the same women, too. But I like to refer to the male canon - where they just had this sort of shift where suddenly there is a more of a profound kind of spirit and sort of more of more perspective, I guess, to what they're trying to put across.

TP: There is that sort of you've had this kind of one period go by and you settle into the sort of maturity as a songwriter. I'm really excited to hear the record reviews.

RUFUS WAINWRIGHT: Thank you.

TP: Thanks for talking in. And hope you guys are staying safe.

RUFUS WAINWRIGHT: Yes. You too.

[/sc].

MG: Tom Power's conversation with Rufus Wainwright. We have learned that that album that Tom was talking about will be out on the 10th of July. So stay tuned for that. That's it for The Current this week. It's been a long week. Thanks for listening to this extended edition of the program. We're back on Monday. We learned this morning that Bill Withers died at 81 of heart complications. He was one of the greatest songwriters of all time. You could probably do with a bit of good music as we head into the weekend, and this is a great example of it. Bill Withers. Matt Galloway take care of herself and each other.

[Music]

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

Friday April 3, 2020 Full Text Transcript

More Stories Like This