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The AIH Transcript for March 31, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

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CH: Tonight:

CO: Call of duty. A critical care nurse from Maryland, heads for the frontlines of the COVID-19 outbreak in New York. She tells us why she's doing it, knowing there's a very good chance she'll catch the virus.

CH: Searching in vanes for help. Doctors are calling unrecovered COVID-19 patients to donate their blood plasma in the hope it will help patients currently fighting the virus.

CO: Pledging protection. After a series of COVID-19 deaths at a care home in a small Ontario town, the province's long term care minister says her government will build an iron ring to protect aging patients.

CH: A little in the nose. An Australian man tries to create a device to stop people from touching their faces and ends up heading to the hospital after getting four magnets lodged up his nose.

CO: Everything's going to be fines. Ontario is putting your money where its mouth is by enforcing fines for those caught gathering beyond a quarantine approved quintet.

CH: And a genital-men's agreement. From the As It Happens archives, the tale of a Swedish man who realized he'd mistakenly erased a national icon. So he hauled out his snowblower and made an even bigger drawing of a penis in the snow. As It Happens. The Tuesday Edition. Radio that appreciates a little pathetic phallusy.

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Part 1: Ontario 'doing everything possible' to help care homes combat COVID-19, says minister

N.Y. Nurses Plea

Guest: Bailey Suh

CH: New York City is in dire need of help. Already more than 1000 people there have died from COVID-19, a number New York Governor Andrew Cuomo calls staggering. He says his state needs 1-million more health care workers to cope. Here he is pleading with the rest of the country for help.

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ANDREW CUOMO: As governor of New York, I am asking health care professionals across the country -- if you don't have a health care crisis in your community, please come help us in New York now. We need relief. We need relief for nurses who are working 12 hour shifts, one after the other after the other. We need relief for doctors. We need relief for attendance. So if you're not busy, come help us, please. And we will return the favour.

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CH: New York Governor Andrew Cuomo yesterday calling for health care workers to volunteer to help in the state's overwhelmed hospitals. Bailey Suh is a critical care nurse, and she's answering that call. We reached her in Hanover, Maryland.

CO: Bailey that is an extraordinary plea by Governor Cuomo. What was it like for you to hear him speak that way?

BAILEY SUH: I think it really just spoke to the gravity of the situation. They are the epicentre. Everything is going on there. And the numbers just keep going up day by day. They really need help. And it really kind of made me feel like this is the right thing for me to do.

CO: What is it in you that it appealed to?

BS: I think I've always been a person, as many other health care providers are, who want to do the best to help others. And that's really what's appealing to me. I also grew up in a military family where my dad was constantly going overseas and I never understood why he would put himself in that danger. And it's kind of becoming more clear to me now because I'm about to go do the same thing. But you have to realize that sometimes you have to do these things and it's for the greater good.

CO: And you mentioned putting yourself in danger. And that's certainly what you might be doing here. What do you think you will encounter when you go to New York to do this job?

BS: I've been keeping up with the media and I have a few friends who work in New York at this time. And they've told me that there is a lot going on there. There is a lot of sick people. As a critical care nurse, there are a lot of intubated people. There are a lot of life and death decisions to be made. And so I'm preparing myself to go into that kind of environment.

CO: You've been following what's going on in Italy, I would imagine as well, where you talk about life and death decisions. That's what they're doing, they're working. Those nurses are working flat out as the ones in New York are now just dealing with making rapid decisions constantly. And so do you feel prepared for that?

BS: Honestly, I don't feel completely prepared for that. I don't think you can ever really be prepared for those kind of decisions. But I know that they're coming. And I know that in the moment I'm going to do the best that I can. And I know that everyone else on the team is doing the best they can.

CO: We've heard that anyone who goes is guaranteed that they will have the equipment they need, the protection they need, the personal protection equipment. Do you have confidence in that?

BS: That's a hard question. I know when I've interviewed, I've been told that there is the correct equipment. However, what I've heard from colleagues and what I've seen in the media is that there is not the correct equipment. That's a kind of a different topic for me. I think I will still go regardless. And I know that I'm putting myself in harm's way. And I think a lot of other people know that as well. But we need to help these people.

CO: So you anticipate that you could quite likely get the virus?

BS: I do.

CO: You thought that through even before you made this decision?

BS: Yes. Even before I went, I told my parents, I told my husband, I don't think it's if I'll contract it, I think it's a matter of when.

CO: And how do you think you'll survive that?

BS: Honestly, you can never be for sure that you are going to be the one that comes down with something similar to a simple cold or if you are going to be the one who unfortunately passes away. But I think if I were to just sit on the sidelines and not do anything to help, I would just have a lot of guilt and regret.

CO: What do your parents say?

BS: My parents think that there's a lot of danger in going. But at the same time, they understand why I want to do it. And so they're supportive.

CO: When you told them -- when you told your dad, especially that military dad, how did he respond when you gave him the news?

BS: He told me that I probably did not know exactly what I was walking into and that it was probably going to be a lot more serious than what I'm making it out to be in my head. But at the same time, he's told me he's extremely proud of me and that he understands why I'm taking the risk.

CO: What did your mom say?

BS: Almost the same thing. She said that there is a big risk and she was a little upset about it. But she's going to respect that decision of mine and support me as well.

CO: And how about your husband?

BS: My husband is also supportive. I do feel bad for him because since we live together in a very small place, there is always that chance that what I contract, he could contract. But he has been supportive and understands why. His father is also a doctor, so I think it rings close to home for him as well.

CO: So now how will you do this logistically? You live in Maryland. You're going to go to New York to work and you are going to do this on weekends. You have a regular job. We should point out that you're doing this in your spare time. But you have a job. So how will you juggle that?

BS: I do have a job. I have a Monday to Friday job, which I'm doing telework for at the moment. So as you said, this is kind of a spare time activity for me. It's going to be a lot. But again, I just feel like it's something that I'm called to do and I'm going to get through it. And so is everybody else.

CO: And you'll go back and forth between Maryland and New York?

BS: That is my plan.

CO: To see that husband.

BS: To see my husband and my kitties. My cats.

CO: [Chuckles] Okay your cats. And they're safe. We know they're safe.

BS: Yes.

CO: Do you think there'll be others like you who answer the call of Governor Cuomo?

BS: I believe he said there's already been 76,000 people who have volunteered their time. I think that health care providers are very generous people. I think a lot of people want to get involved. It's just figuring out how to get involved seems to be the big issue.

CO: It's a certain type of people that will do what you're doing. It's not for everybody, is it?

BS: It's not for everybody. And I do feel fortunate that in this instance, I'm a healthy young individual. My husband is healthy. I don't have children. So that makes the choice a little bit easier for me.

CO: Bailey, I really admire your courage.

BS: Thank you.

CO: And this can be a difficult time for you I know. But I think people will really appreciate what you're doing.

BS: Thank you. And I hope that by me coming public, I hope that I can spread awareness and encourage other people to do the same thing. Even if you're not medical, get involved. Help your neighbour. We should all be nice to each other in this time.

CO: Good advice and thank you.

BS: Thank you so much.

CH: Bailey Suh is a critical care nurse. We reached her in Hanover, Maryland.

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Ontario Long Term Care

Guest: Merrilee Fullerton

CH: The situation at the Pinecrest Nursing Home was bad. Now it's getting worse. Pinecrest is the care center in Bobcaygeon, Ontario, that we told you about on last night's show. Overnight, three more residents, seniors, died of COVID-19. That means there have been at least 13 deaths in the facility and possibly more linked to the centre in the community. Dr. Merrilee Fullerton is Ontario's Minister of Long Term Care. We reached Minister Fullerton in Ottawa.

CO: Minister Fullerton, what do you say to the patients at Pinecrest home in Bobcaygeon tonight and to the families with loved ones in long term care across the province?

MERRILEE FULLERTON: Well, first to the families in Bobcaygeon: heartbreaking. This is a tragic tragic situation. And my condolences, my deepest condolences, go out to everyone affected -- staff, residents, families. And I want them to know that our government is doing everything possible to stop this. This is a beast -- COVID-19 is a beast -- that we collectively will need to wrestle to the ground. And it is going to take our collective might.

CO: I just want to play for you part of an interview we had with Ian Handscomb, whose 85 year old father Bill is at Pinecrest home. And he had a message he wanted us to put to you and to the Ontario government. So here is Ian Handscomb from last night.

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IAN HANDSCOMB: We're not asking for hundreds of thousands of dollars. We're not asking for huge amounts of, you know, medical kit, medicines, and that. We're asking for people. We're asking for people to help these poor PSWs and nurses who care for these folks. They deserve the dignity to have the care that is expected of our seniors.

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CO: All right. That is Ian Handscomb. Minister Fullerton, what do you say to him tonight?

MF: I completely agree with him. And as a minister of long term care, a dedicated ministry starting back in the summer, I have said so many times exactly what he has said. Our residents deserve respect and dignity. And our staff deserves support. And that is exactly why this tragedy stands out so much. And to say that this COVID-19 is different from any other virus that we've ever seen is an understatement.

CO: You call it tragic. You say it's a beast that we're trying to stop. But the question many people have, minister, was it avoidable who say try to stop it? Could you have prevented it to some extent, given that we knew so much about what was going to happen to the elderly from what we saw in Italy and even in China?

MF: Yes. And our commitment is the safety and well-being of our long term care residents in their homes and the staff and the families. Absolutely critical.

CO: I appreciate the priority. Minister, my question is, is that what could you have done to mitigate this? What could you have done? I know it's like hindsight 2020, but we knew this was coming. So what was in place to make sure that this didn't become the huge -- we call it -- tragedy that it's become?

MF: Yes. We started immediately months ago with measures that we were including -- new measures under the directive of the chief medical officer of health, including screening, active screening. Then we moved onto essential visitor allowed into the homes only, and we then moved onto the emergency orders. We've had two emergency orders and pieces to that that have come forth since. We changed the protocol for an outbreak to be a case of one so that we could direct all the protocols immediately. In the case of the home in Bobcaygeon, the outbreak procedures were directed by the chief medical officer of health -- the public health unit. And there's a management team there now to help with the staffing. And putting a lens on that particular situation because of the severity of it and understand how do we create more than what we're doing. And clearly there are gaps.

CO: Okay. But I want to ask you how many homes have the situation. The Globe and Mail tried to find out how many long term care facilities in Ontario have COVID-19. They learned on their own research, 26 long term care homes have at least one case of COVID-19. According to your knowledge, how many long term care homes at this point have identified COVID-19?

MF: Well, I just want to clarify that initially under the standard protocols from prior, it was three cases were considered an outbreak. That was changed by the chief medical officer of health a few days ago to create a protocol when it's one case for an outbreak. And that means measures can be taken immediately. To my understanding as of today is, there are 23 homes. There may be, in fact, 26. And what happens typically is there...

CO: Sorry. Just to understand, 26 homes that have three cases or are considered to be those who are infected now with COVID-19?

MF: Well an outbreak has now been deemed to be one case. And so in that number 26 -- I don't have a number of 26 -- I have a number of 23. But what's happening is there's a lag behind what is put out on Facebook or social media in terms of cases that sometimes it's staff that put set up right away. Our system has to be confirmed. So it goes through public health. And my number shows today 23. And so I'm very much about transparency. I really think that people need to know the situation. And looking at our long term care residents in our homes, they are Ontario's most vulnerable.

CO: Okay. And that's why Premier Ford has said that there is now an iron-ring to protect patients in long term care. That's what he announced. I guess, what does that mean for these 23 homes you've identified, including Pinecrest where the disease is already taking lives?

MF: It's a new disease. Never been known to the world before. And we're learning from other countries. We're learning as we go. There's an evolution to this process. And so clearly there are gaps. I would ask everyone who doesn't need to go visit a long term care home not to do that. I would ask everyone to continue to take measures, washing their hands, maintaining the social distancing, or what we're calling now physical distancing. These are all incredibly important. We all have a role to play. And if there is anything that we can do to close those gaps, we are doing it. We're working round the clock, day and night, to understand what's going on in our homes.

CO: Okay. But we do understand that the people inside those homes need personal protection equipment. They are saying -- their unions are saying -- they do not have that. All those homes do not have what they need. So if you're saying you're working around the clock, are you getting those PPEs to those people who are working in those homes?

MF: Yes. Yes, we are. And we keep in constant connection with the homes. When we get reports, we have insight into how their PPEs supply is going. And we have redeployed our long term care inspectors to be point people so that they can make sure they are addressing the concerns of the homes in their areas in terms of supplies of PPE, in terms of support and in terms of staff. So this is actively being done. This is, again, one of our newer measures. But this is evolving every day. And what we're saying is we need to be nimble. We need to be vigilant and we need to be responsive.

CO: Minister Fullerton, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

MF: Thank you so much. Take care.

CH: Merrilee Fullerton is Ontario's Minister of Long Term Care. We reached her today in Ottawa. And you can find more on this story on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

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From our Archives: Snow Penis

CH: He was wise enough to know he'd made a mistake. And kind enough to try to undo his mistake with a huge public gesture. Emilian Sava is the total package. And so was the thing he drew in the snow. It's that time again when we find a story in the As It Happens archives to remind us of more carefree times. In this case, to remind us that once upon a time people got very excited when an anonymous person made a giant drawing of a penis in the snow in a park in Gothenburg, Sweden. And that those same people got very upset when a park worker responded to complaints and removed it with a broom. Emilian Sava was that park worker. And while he could erase the giant penis from the snow, he couldn't erase it from his mind or his conscience. And he didn't just see his act as a mistake. He saw it as an opportunity for growth, by which I mean he went back out the next day and made a significantly bigger snow penis. From our archives, here's Carol's conversation with Emilian Sava, which first aired in January of 2016.

CO: Emilian, can you describe this giant snow penis you created?

EMILIAN SAVA: I took two snowblowers and I made a really huge snow penis not far from where I live. We were two guys, one colleague from work. So I took him in the morning. I told him, you know what, we just go out right now and do one big huge penis in the memory of the old one that we erased.

CAROL OFF: Just how big is your penis? I mean the penis you made?

ES: I think it's about 70 meters or something like that.

CO: That's big.

ES: Yes it's really huge, it's big. It's big. And it's standing because the snow, it's… it's very cold here. We haven't had this kind of snow here in many years. So it's really good, it's really good conditions to do that. But I think people around the world they are thinking, and I think that they will do much huger penises than this one. This is only the start. I think there would be bigger one that is.

CO: All right let's get to your motivation because what happened. This is, as you say, a memorial in memory of the old snow penis.

ES: Yes the old snow penis. It was, I was at work and I read in the newspaper that someone draw a penis in the snow, in the channel, in the city, in the middle of the city. And the maintenance people that they couldn't remove that penis from the channel. And it was too risky for them to go out and removed that. So they write about it in the newspaper, and I just laugh at them because there is always a possibility to do something about it. So I just called my colleague and I told him “You know what? There is a huge penis in the channel, and do you want to go with me to remove this penis?” “Yes,” he said, “of course we remove it.” So we just took this along stick. We go out there, we removed the penis. And after that, it was the community and Facebook that started -- they wanted the penis back.

CO: Tell us about the complaints you got on Facebook after you removed that penis.

ES: Yeah after we removed the penis, we got a lot of complaining because it shouldn't be removed. It was like a free art. It's, you know, no one should borrow but about removing this. Especially when it's done in snow and it's not… it melt away anyway. And you know when I got home, and I saw this community, I joined them and I read everything they there was writing there. And I started to feel sorry about them because they really missed their penis. And in the middle of the night, I wake up, I couldn't sleep, it was really hard for me to sleep. And I went to the computer and I write to them, that you know guys, I'm really sorry that I deleted your penis from… which I did. And I promise you guys that tomorrow I will do something about it. And I called my colleague, you know, and I told him, you know what, we go out and we do a really big huge penis somewhere.

CO: And we know that Sweden, though, is a place that as strong a gender equality. So would you go out and in the spirit of equality, create female genitals with your snowblowers?

EM: Actually, we were thinking about that. But the thing was that this one, we wanted to make this in the memorial of the old one that we erased. And also with that, we leave some room for others to do other kinds of genitals. If they want to female genital, which they did the whole day. It was a lot of female genitals made into snow all over the Gothenburg.

CO: Now, do you have a name for this -- your creation? Or is it just called the giant snow penis?

EM: Yeah, just call it a giant snow penis. We didn't have any kind of name for it. It's in the memory of the old. You know these days when you hear about bad news, now everybody's laughing around here. So it's really nice.

CO: And because it's cold.

EM: Yes. It's really cold here right now. We haven't had this weather for many many years. So we have a lot of snow.

CO: So I imagine the penis is going to last for a long time.

EM: I hope so. I hope so. It will stand tall and proudly.

CO: Emilian thank you. [Laughs]

EM: Thank you. [Laughs]

CH: From our archives, Emilian Sava a parks worker in Gothenburg, Sweden, speaking with Carol on January 21st, 2016.

[Music]

Part 2: Astrophysicist gets magnets stuck in nose while trying to fight face touching

COVID Blood Donations

Guest: Bruce Sachais

CH: The treatment is experimental. It might not work. But doctors in New York City are willing to try. Mount Sinai Hospital, among others, has put out a call to patients in the US who've recovered from COVID-19. They want those recovered patients to donate their blood plasma. Dr. Bruce Sachais is the executive medical director at the New York Blood Centre -- one of the blood banks collecting, testing, and distributing the plasma to hospitals. We reached him in New York City.

CO: Dr. Sachais, why do you want recovered coronavirus patients to donate their blood plasma?

BRUCE SACHAIS: So there's some case reports that plasma that is from convalescent donors meeting that patients who have recovered from the COVID-19 infection may be beneficial to patients that are currently suffering from the disease. And although the data aren't strong, we do have multiple case reports that that is the case. So that's why we're looking for donors who meet certain qualifications for having had the disease who are now recovered from it and have strong antibody response to the virus.

CO: Without getting too technical, can you tell us how it works? Why it might have an effect on COVID-19?

BRUCE SACHAIS: So the way this might help is that when you have an infection, one of the things your immune system does to fight the infection is make antibodies, which are proteins that are in your blood. And if you've already fought the infection and we can demonstrate that you have those antibodies, they could potentially help another patient who's now suffering from the disease as their immune system ramps up to make their own antibodies. So it's kind of a bridge -- is the idea to help you get a head start on fighting the infection before your body has made the complete response.

CO: And you say, there's limited evidence. What evidence is there that it might work?

BRUCE SACHAIS: So the evidence that exists out there in the literature right now are some case reports from patients from China where convalescent plasma has been used and those patients did recover after getting the plasma. What we don't know is if it was the plasma that helped them or other therapies as they were getting at the time, because they did receive other types of therapies while they were getting the plasma. So we need to study that more in the United States and elsewhere in the world to understand and have more experience with it, to determine if we really think that it's healthy.

CO: But because this is an emergency, The Food and Drug Administration in the United States has given permission for the plasma to be used experimentally. What risks are involved in that?

BRUCE SACHAIS: So that's correct. So the FDA in the US has done something called an emergency IND Pathway where hospitals can write to get permission to use this on specific patients that are not doing well in the hospital. And when we're doing that, we have to understand that not only is there a potential benefit, but there's potential risks. And right now, the risks haven't yet been seen or described. But in theory, the antibodies could actually coat the virus in the patient receiving it and make the immune response overactive, and that could worsen the condition.

CO: All right. So, I mean, do you have a sense as to what kind of a patient, at what stage of the disease this would be optimal for? Is it for anyone? It is obviously not a vaccine. But who would it benefit most?

BRUCE SACHAIS: Well, that's something that we don't know at all yet. And so what the FDA has made a pathway for is for those sick patients in the hospital where physicians would like to try it. So we're looking at some of the sicker patients right now under that pathway. There are multiple trials and other types of studies being planned that not only look at very sick patients, but look at patients who are already infected and showing signs of the disease that are not yet that bad. And there's also plans for studying it in a protective way prophylactically for people who have been exposed or at high risk for exposure and have not yet gotten the disease. So those things are being planned that would be regular studies under a standard IND in the US. Some of those trials should be starting soon, I believe.

CO: Lots of things have to be in place, right. You have to have people who have had it, obviously survived. Having the virus have the right blood for the person who needs it. All kinds of things. How can this be beneficial to more than just a handful of people if it does work?

BRUCE SACHAIS: So if it is found to be effective, more and more hospitals will be planning on using it. And although in New York, where we're focused right now on how can we quickly mobilize to be able to provide it to the hospitals that are getting IND permission. Today, we're involved in some other efforts throughout the United States with other hospitals and blood centres to try to map out pathways to make this more widely available should it be shown to be effective.

CO: What would you need to have in place? How could you wrap this up so that it could be a national or even an international benefit if it does work?

BRUCE SACHAIS: So if it does work, you need multiple centres that are able to collect the plasma. You need a more systematic way of identifying the donors and qualifying the donors that they did in fact have actual infection from SARS-CoV-2, which is the virus that causes COVID-19, that they've completely recovered from that infection and that they do in fact have antibody response that they've made, which is strong enough that we would think that it would help somebody else.

CO: Okay, so this might be able to help somebody at a certain stage and keep them from becoming another burden on top of all the others of the healthcare system. This would be one way of streaming some people out of that burden I guess.

BRUCE SACHAIS: Correct. And at the moment that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to get it to people who are not doing well, as well as understanding better if and how to best use this therapy amongst a variety of other therapies that the doctors on the frontlines are trying to help these patients get out of the hospital quickly.

CO: And you need a lot of samples here. But in order to do that, you need more people to be infected with COVID, I guess, to get those samples. There is a bit of an irony there, isn't there?

BRUCE SACHAIS: There is. But if there's not a lot of people infected, then there's also less need. So it kind of goes hand-in-hand. But unfortunately, at the moment in our region, there are quite a few people that have been infected. And the willingness of people to come out and their desire to help has been tremendous as so many people who have gotten over the infection are coming out and trying to see if they qualify as donors.

CO: Dr. Sachais I wish you success with this, and I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

BRUCE SACHAIS: Well, thank you very much. And thank you for the opportunity to speak with you. Have a great day.

CH: Dr. Bruce Sachais is the executive medical director at the New York Blood Centre. We reached him in New York City.

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Jim Watson

CH: The Ontario government has a pretty clear message for its citizens: stop gathering. Over the weekend, the government banned gatherings of more than five people -- other than families who are self isolating together. And if people break that rule, they could be fined $750. In Ottawa, bylaw officers are now enforcing the rule. And Mayor Jim Watson did not mince his words when he told the CBC's Ottawa Morning how important it is.

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JIM WATSON: You know, we had 50 complaints over the weekend alone of this kind of illegal activity. I said at the time of the press conference it was idiotic. But it's also irresponsible because, you know, when we have people having street parties, we had a couple of them that were AirBnB. And as you know, from weeks ago, we had problems with AirBnB -- renting out to people having these massive keg parties and so on. Well, a couple of those were people from -- I guess they were from the city. I don't know why someone would travel here to have a house party. It seems rather stupid, to be perfectly honest.

ROBYN BRESNAHAN: What do you think the message about physical distancing still is not getting through to some people?

JIM WATSON: I think I think some people think they're invincible. You know, particularly when you see people having a basketball game or a soccer game on city facilities. They seem to think that they're invincible, that they're maybe young, they're not going to get the virus because, you know, most of the people who have been affected so far are older. But there are young people that are getting the virus. I think there was a story on ABC -- I saw that a teenager actually passed away as a result of the COVID-19. So probably that. I can't imagine they haven't seen it in the news or on social media because it's all consuming. There's nothing in the news cycle except COVID-19. And the message has been very consistent from the great work that Dr. Etches and her team have been doing, and the prime minister and the premier. The message is very very clear that you can see the COVID-19 spread to you and then you bring it back to your home and then the cycle continues. So it's incumbent upon us as responsible citizens of a civil society to do whatever we can to minimize this kind of contact.

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CH: That was Ottawa Mayor Jim Watson speaking with the CBC Robyn Bresnahan this morning.

[Music]

Magnet Nose Guy

Guest: Daniel Reardon

CH: It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that you are not supposed to touch your face these days. But it seems like it does take an astrophysicist to try to create a device to stop you from doing just that. Even if it ended with his own face being touched a lot. Last week, while stuck at home, astrophysicist Daniel Reardon attempted to engineer a magnetized device to help stop the spread of coronavirus. But in the process of trying to sniff out a solution, the Australian man sniffed in instead. And ended up at the hospital to have four magnets removed from his nose. We reached Daniel Reardon in Melbourne.

CO: Daniel, first of all, how is your nose doing after its ordeal?

DANIEL REARDON: Thanks. It's recovering well. I might have a follow up. There's a possibility that pressure damage from magnets is not too good for tissue in your nose and is part of the reason why they're dangerous and people shouldn't play with them.

CO: All right. Well, before we get to what it happened, can you just tell us a bit about what you were trying to do when these magnets went up your nose?

DR: Yeah. So it was an idea with good intentions with a moment of boredom on the couch while watching TV, I thought that I would take out my drawer of electronic equipment and have a go at making a device that would sound a buzzer if one were to bring their hands too close to their face. So this would hopefully stop people subconsciously touching their face. This is not my expertise. It's just something I was working on in my spare time.

CO: Because you are in fact an astrophysicist and you usually study pulsars and gravitational waves, but you decided to invent some kind of a device.

DR: Yes, that's exactly right.

CO: Okay. First of all, to be clear, we're not talking about fridge door magnets here, are we?

DR: [Chuckles] No. There's a really powerful neodymium magnets. They are some of the most powerful magnets that you can buy as a consumer that plant electromagnets.

CO: Okay. So now how did they end up in your nose?

DR: [Chuckles] Yeah. So after the first iteration of this device didn't work, I had these magnets and I was just sitting on the couch with them watching TV and playing with them a little bit mindlessly. And I started first attaching them to my ear lobes like a magnetic piercing, I guess. And then to my nostril [chuckles]. And that was okay. Just having one set of magnets on one nostril. But I had problems when I stupidly attached these magnets to my other nostril. And then they all, of course, were attracted to each other across my nose and pinched together.

CO: Ouch! That's got to be painful.

DR: [Laughs] Yeah.

CO: And so this is the outside of your nose at this point, right?

DR: There were two on the outside and two on the inside because I had clipped them across each nostril. And so I was only able to reach the ones on the outside, of course. So once I had removed them, I had two magnets stuck in my nose, pinching really hard across the septum of my nose.

CO: Okay. At what point did the pliers get involved here?

DR: [Chuckles] Well, first, I actually managed to get more magnets stuck up my nose. So...

CO: You put more magnets into your nose?

DR: [Chuckles] I did. So after I Googled this problem, I came across a case of an 11 year old boy who had done a similar thing. And the solution in that case was that doctors used more magnets to offset the pool of the ones inside his nose and they were able to slide them out that way. I thought that made a little bit of sense and I thought I'd try it. So I had two remaining magnets and I stuck them on the outside of my left nostril. And this was actually starting to work. I almost removed one of the magnets, which would have removed them both. But unfortunately, I lost my grip on these magnets and they ended up sticking to the one in my left nostril. And so I had three magnets in one nostril and then one in the other.

CO: Did you panic? I mean, did you stay relatively calm as a scientist would?

DR: No, that was one of the steps towards me realizing I'm going to need to go to the hospital. When I ran out of magnets and then magnets were the solution to a previous problem, then I might need some help.

CO: Just before we go to the hospital -- again, the pliers. How did that get up your nose too?

DR: Yeah, that's right. So these pliers I had lying around because I'm doing some renovations. I had tools around. I just picked them up off the ground and tried to grip onto these magnets with the pliers. The problem was the pliers are made out of steel so there's a high iron content attracted to the magnets. And with four powerful magnets stuck in my nose, when I got the pliers close to my nose, my entire nose would just shift with the force of these magnets towards the pliers. And it was getting quite painful. So I wasn't able to get a useful grip on these magnets. And it was a bit too painful for me to just pull by force to pull these magnets off.

CO: Okay. So this is a trip to the hospital now. And so they were able to get these magnets out of your nose and the pliers?

DR: Yes, that's right. So fortunately, the pliers didn't get stuck. I didn't lose my grip. But the doctors at the hospital did try tweezers, so a similar method. But their tweezers were also attracted to the magnets, unfortunately. So they weren't able to usefully get a grip on these magnets. And it also didn't help that they're smooth. So in the end, a second doctor had to come in and help remove these magnets. So I had two doctors working on me. They were basically pulling with their hands. One doctor in each nostril. By sheer force, the magnets started coming out. And fortunately, I had some anesthetic in my nose at this point. [Chuckles]

CO: All right. So now you've learned that this is not a good idea to touch your face or put magnets in it and you and 11 year old boys now [laughs] know these kinds of things shouldn't happen, right?

DR: Yes, exactly. [Chuckles]

CO: Daniel, thank you. And I'm glad you're okay.

DR: Thanks very much.

CH: Daniel Reardon is an astrophysicist who recently had four magnets removed from his nose. We reached him in Melbourne, Australia.

[Music]

Mary Janet MacDonald

CH: There used to be only family and friends. But now tens of thousands of people on the Internet want to know how to make Mary Janet MacDonald's cinnamon buns. The Cape Breton woman took to Facebook live recently to share her recipe. And as you can tell from the beginning of her live feed, she's new to Internet stardom, but she's a natural.

[sc]

MARY JANET MACDONALD: Hello everybody! Mary Janet here. I've never done this before. And I just want to welcome each and every one of you to my Cape Breton kitchen. And I want to say hi to my own children: Tammy, Brad, and Marty, Gordie, Kelly, Krysta, and Mitchell -- and all the grandkids and all the daughters-in-law and sons-in-law and fiances. I just had to get everybody in there. I'm just going to pretend that there's one person watching me and I am going to go ahead and start.

[/sc]

CH: Now, if it were up to me, we would play Mary Janet MacDonald's entire one hour cinnamon bun recipe video. But I was overruled. So sadly, we only have time for one more clip. You can imagine Mary Janet wearing an apron and oven mitts, taking her perfect Cape Breton cinnamon rolls out of the oven.

[sc]

MARY JANET MACDONALD: So guys I talk too much. And the cinnamon rolls were on the full 18 minutes. But you know what? It was perfect. I'll show you. So I've cut between every one of them. And the best ones are in the middle. I'm going to just take this middle one out. Can you smell that? So there. There is your nice, warm, yummy cinnamon roll Mary Janet style. [Chuckles] And I'm going to pour myself cup tea. And I'm going to sit at the table. I'm going to have the first bite with you. Let me see how this tastes. Hmm! I wish you were here. That's really really good. Oh, my God, there's so many beautiful people on here that I'm seeing their names. I love you all. And thank you for bearing with me and hope you enjoyed it. And maybe we'll see you next Sunday. There's Darlene Sutherland. Have a good day everybody. Stay safe and, you know, wash your hands and love one another. Okay. Bye.

[/sc]

CH: Mary Janet MacDonald from Port Hood, Cape Breton, sharing her cinnamon bun recipe on Facebook live. Ms. MacDonald's video has now been viewed more than 30,000 times. And we will post a link on Twitter @CBCAsItHappens.

[Music]

Arundhati Roy

CH: When Booker Prize-winning author and activist Arundhati Roy speaks, people listen. And right now, she's counting on that. Last Wednesday, India's Prime Minister Narendra Modi ordered a countrywide lockdown in an effort to slow the spread of coronavirus. But the new rules came into effect with less than 24 hours notice, which has created a new kind of crisis for the millions of people living day to day. Here's Arundhati Roy speaking to the BBC.

[sc]

ARUNDHATI ROY: We are seeing something like what happened during the 1947 partition between India and Pakistan, which was a partition along religious lines in a way, but here along class lines. So you're seeing these big metropolitan cities ejecting their working classes, you know, some -70 million workers, of which 80 percent are in the informal sector. And it seemed as though they didn't exist in the government's imagination when they announced the lockdown. You know, I spoke to some of them who were walking and they actually said, you know, Modi, maybe he didn't know about us. And you get the feeling that perhaps they didn't. To announce something like this with no preparation, to call it a lockdown in order to enforce social distancing or physically distancing actually, in India has the opposite effect. It's like social compression. The big roads are empty, but inside people are squashed into their homes or they're walking for hundreds of kilometres. And they are getting beaten by the police. They have no food. They have no water. Then half the way, they are told, no, you can't walk now. You have to go back. It's unthinkable. They had plenty of time while they were so worried about getting Indians who are flying in from outside and dealing with all the upper-class people. You know, they were not thinking about this. They could have given them a few days. They could have organized transport. They could have organized, you know, for people to stay where they were. And if they had to be tough, they should have been tough on the landlords who are kicking people out. They should have been tough on the factory owners who refused to pay them even their last month's salary. It's zero preparation. Zero understanding. That is what worries me the most, that the government doesn't understand the country that it rules.

[/sc]

CH: The Indian author Arundhati Roy talking to the BBC about the effects of India's countrywide coronavirus lockdown.

[Music]

Part 3: This locked down Welsh town has been overtaken by goats

COVID Foster Care

Guest: Natasha Reimer Okemow

CH: Right now, experts across the country are urging Canadians to stay at home. But for youth in care who are aging out of the system, that can be easier said than done. The transition can be tough under the best of circumstances. Last week, Ontario vowed not to cut off state support for the hundreds of kids who would normally age out of the system this year. And now B.C. and Alberta have pledged to follow. But advocates across the country are calling for other governments to take action as well. Natasha Reimer Okemow is a former youth in care. She now works at the nonprofit Youth in Care Canada as its director for Manitoba.

CO: Natasha, just how much more difficult is it for young people who are transitioning as they called out of state care in the midst of a pandemic?

NATASHA REIMER OKEMOW: I think the challenges are that there is a lack of recognition that these individuals need support and resources that aren't readily available to them right now. When you're aging out of care, you're expected at 18 or 19, depending on your jurisdiction, you're expected to navigate life completely on your own. And that's kind of difficult when there's a pandemic going on and you are not able to work or go to school. And also, there is no support.

CO: When you say aging out of care -- for people who don't understand that phrase, it's that once you reach a certain age in provinces across the country, then you leave foster care, you're given some money, a stipend, but you're essentially on your own, I guess.

NATASHA REIMER OKEMOW: Yeah. That's pretty much how it goes. You are told the day you age out: good luck. In Manitoba, I got like a thousand dollars and that was it. And I was to carry on, on my own. And for kids in care, who are aging out of care, it's a very scary time. And now with the pandemic going on, it is just even more scarier because who do you turn to in the midst of this?

CO: And you have to do all this on your own. And right now, there's no school they can go back into. I guess, it's hard to find housing at this point.

NATASHA REIMER OKEMOW: Yes. Housing is an issue. School is an issue. Even employment as well is an issue too, for those whose jobs don't allow them to work from home. And then also access to mental health supports, medication, groceries, like basic necessities to take care of yourself in the midst of this is very difficult as well. And then also make sure that they have enough access to resources to protect themselves from contracting the virus as well.

CO: So Ontario has announced that kids who would normally age out of the system this year won't lose their homes or financial support during the pandemic -- that they're basically going to extend that. Is Ontario doing it right?

NATASHA REIMER OKEMOW: I think Ontario is fine example of what other provinces and territories should be following. I think that it is very very very important that kids in care are not left and tossed to the side just because they turned 18. I think it's cruel and I think it's not right to do that to somebody in the midst of this. This is a proactive step towards what should be happening across the country.

CO: Just give us a sense, just from your own experience because you were in foster care, you had to go out and do it on your own. Just tell us how difficult it is right now -- if you can imagine for a young person who's leaving care?

NATASHA REIMER OKEMOW: When I aged out of care, I really didn't know what I was doing, to be honest. It was kind of more so winging it. I knew I want to go to university, but I was told that university wasn't an option for kids like me who grew up in care. And I was like, well, I'm going to go to university. They're like, well, there's not enough resources and support. And so I remember having to navigate life kind of on my own. And it was very very scary. And I remember kind of begging my social worker because I aged out of care -- there was another semester of university. And I said, is there any way that you can support me just to get in the semester? I need help and support right now. And they were like, no, I'm sorry. Good luck. And it was very scary because up until that point, the agency had taken care of my medication and helping grocery shop. Just checking and making sure that I was eating. And now, I had no one. No one to talk to. Nobody to turn to. And I didn't know how I was going to do groceries, how I was going to get revenue to be able to support myself as well as how was I going to carry on with school and also funding my medication as well.

CO: If you can imagine -- say you've aged out of care right now in the middle of this pandemic, how much worse? How much more difficult that would be?

NATASHA REIMER OKEMOW: Due to the fact that everyone is supposed to be self-isolating, I think it would be even more harder to have to go through that process because you already feel alone when you're trying navigating health care. But now you're actually forced to be alone on top of that. or told to be alone -- to remove yourself from interacting with others while trying to figure this all out. It is extremely hard. And I can't imagine the burden that that places on those young people who are transitioning.

CO: There's something called Kids Help Phone. I think, you know, and the federal government announced that another seven and a half million dollars for Kids Help Phone. And also while announcing it, the prime minister made a message to kids -- he says that we're there for you. You're not alone, he said. You're not alone to young people. Do you think the federal government is doing enough? If you could tell anything to Mr. Trudeau, what would you say?

NATASHA REIMER OKEMOW: I would say that because they're nice words at face value, but then it needs to be followed by actions. Yes, we may not be alone I guess. There may be a helpline, but what other supports are there for these young people? Because they actually are alone. Like for me, for example, I live alone and I have to do this on my own. I am the responsible adult in the situation. I'm the one who's taking care of me. I have no one to fall back on. So it's nice to know that I'm not alone in the sense where I can talk to somebody on the phone about my mental health, and that kind of stuff. But at the end of the day, I am alone. And what supports are there going to be for this? I think there needs to be more action from the federal government. I think these individuals in youth in care care across the country need to be recognized and acknowledged for adversities and the obstacles that they are facing in the midst of this pandemic. And I think a more aggressive approach needs to be done.

CO: Natasha, thank you. Thanks for your advocacy for those young people. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

NATASHA REIMER OKEMOW: Thank you for having me. Take care.

CH: Natasha Reimer Okemow is a former youth in care. She now works for Youth in Care Canada as the nonprofit group's Director for Manitoba.

[Music]

Blaine Tucker

CH: With temperatures still hovering around freezing, it is not the most pleasant time for a camping trip. But in an attempt to protect his family from COVID-19, one man in Newfoundland is living in his tent. A week ago, Blaine Tucker came home from work rotation in Alberta. He's not sick, but in an effort to physically distance himself, he's living in his driveway. Blaine and his fiancee, Wanda Williams, spoke with Krissy Holmes on the St. John's Morning Show. Here's part of their conversation.

[sc]

BLAINE TUCKER: I've seen better days. But it's not too bad. I'm just keeping warm. The most important thing is keeping warm during the night.

KRISSY HOLMES: I bet.

BLAINE TUCKER: Oh, yes. I do have a little stove in there, but it only keeps half the tent warm. Then the other half is a bit chilly. But we're hanging in there, me and my dog Cooper.

KRISSY HOLMES: Okay. So you got Cooper in the tent with you. And now I want to bring in your fiancee, Wanda Williams, who is going to speak with us from the other side of the glass. Good morning, Wanda.

WANDA WILLIAMS: Good morning.

KRISSY HOLMES: So you guys actually see each other right now?

WANDA WILLIAMS: Yeah. [Laughs]

BLAINE TUCKER: Yes. She's waving at me. I'm waving at her.

KRISSY HOLMES: Explain how you've been communicating and practicing your physical distancing while maintaining a relationship?

WANDA WILLIAMS: Well, we just see each other through the glass every morning and a few times throughout the day. I've been cooking him meals and just opening the door, laying them on the front steps there. And then after I close the door, he comes out, he comes to get his meal.

CO: Blaine, what's that been like for you? I mean, it hasn't been a warm few days, has it?

BLAINE TUCKER: No. It's been a little chilly. Like I say, during the nighttime it's the worst. But during the day I can manage to keep the stove going with wood. But during the night, I am sleeping and obviously the fire goes out. And then I've got to get up and load it again. And it can be a little bit hectic. But I mean, it could be worse. I could be inside with my family and I could be affecting them and not even know it. So I would rather put up with the coldness than get them sick.

[/sc]

CH: From CBC St. John's, that was host Krissy Holmes speaking with Blaine Tucker and Wanda Williams in Port Blandford, Newfoundland. Blaine Tucker is living in a tent to isolate himself from his family after returning from a work trip to Alberta.

[Music]

Canada Sews

Guest: Teresa Shaver

CH: Teresa Shaver usually sews once a week. She makes most of her wardrobe. But things have changed recently. Now she's sewing constantly and she's making facemasks. Ms. Shaver is one of the founders of a group that has grown rapidly in the last week or so -- it's called Canada Sews. We reached Teresa Shaver at her home in Oshawa, Ontario.

CO: Teresa, how many masks have you made so far?

TERESA SHAVER: Myself, I think around 30. There's much better producers than me actually.

CO: I understand you have something you call the super mask producers. What are they doing?

TS: So the super mask producers probably make about 40 a day. So I imagine they're working at it the whole time. Sewing like crazy to get those out.

CO: What does your home office look like right now?

TS: So my home office is divided between a sewing studio and my actual work home office. So I've got this long table -- half of it is for my business and the other half is for sewing. And then I also have probably about eight feet of cutting space. So I spent some time standing and cutting and pressing and folding. And then I spend time between two sewing machines.

CO: And so how did this all get started? This thing Canada Sews, you call it.

TS: Yeah. It started just over a week ago. Lee Ann Moore is actually the founder. And she started out as seeing it on Facebook that hospitals in the US were crying out for some masks to be made by local sewers. And so she thought, well, I can sew, I can help -- I have been sewing since I was a teen. So she actually started sewing. And as she started, she said on Facebook, "Oh, does anybody else want to help me sew?" I saw that the hospitals in the US need help. So a bunch of us said, yes, we'll help. We started out with like five people and we called it Durham Region Sews. And as we put that out that we were sewing these masks, then health care workers, some nurses, some PSW organizations started contacting us (asking): can we help make the masks?Because they need masks as well. So as of today, we're up to seven thousand three hundred and six people looking for masks for needing seven thousand three hundred mask.

CO: Are you working with a pattern that's established? How do you go about fashioning them?

TS: Yeah. And so it started out by being a pattern that we got from the hospital. Now it's a different pattern, but it's still a pattern that has two or three layers. By no means are these masks meant to replace personal protective equipment. That's our biggest disclaimer. This is, you know, if you need it, use it. But we are hoping that it doesn't get used and that every frontline worker actually gets the proper protective equipment that they need for their job.

CO: This has been established that it's a limited amount of protection. The N95 masks that really can stop the virus. In the hospital system, how are they using your masks as far as you know?

TS: They're using that as an extra protection. So it's going over the other masks because in many cases the nurses and, you know, people on the frontline have to use that same mask or maybe they have two or three masks for a whole shift. So perhaps what these masks can offer is that extra barrier.

CO: We've spoken to health care workers in Spain where they are -- one doctor told us she gets one mask a week and she has to deal with that. So it would be really helpful for those people in those situations, I guess.

TS: Yes, I think so. So when we started out last Sunday as Durham Region Sews -- well, now we're actually Canada Sews. We have 3500 volunteers. We've been able to distribute 500 masks so far.

CO: And so you started off -- it called from the United States. But your masks are now going to Canadians and Canadian institutions?

TS: Yes. So what happened is we thought, well, we'll just ship them off to the States because we want to give back. And then soon, everybody else was requesting to get it locally. And so we thought, well, you know, we can do it locally. And so now, as I said, we have seventeen hundred members in the group all helping to sew or source fabric or deliver. Thankfully, we have UPS stores across Canada on board. And so we started to figure out, okay, if they go from the sewers to where they get washed, can we get them to the UPS store, who will then deliver them to the areas that they need to go. So that's kind of the system we now have in place.

CO: You know, it's reminiscent, isn't it, in a certain way. People have referred to this battle as a war -- and it is a bit like knitting woolen socks for soldiers is at the front.

TS: Possibly. You know, like in my lifetime, I've never had to experience this. I can just say, thank God we have the Internet. We have Facebook. We have ways of communicating, even though we're stuck in the house.

CO: And we have people like you. Thank you, Teresa.

TS: Thank you.

CH: Teresa Shaver is a co-founder of the group Canada Sews, which has been stitching facemasks for health workers. We reached her in Oshawa, Ontario.

[Music]

CO: This was, of course, part of the campaign that the Dutch had waged in order to suppress the independence movement. Two years later, Indonesia did get its independence. How many years, how long did it take before the Netherlands even admitted that this was wrong, that they had massacred these innocent men?

LIESBETH ZEGVELD: Well, immediately after there was a criminal examination. I wouldn't call it an investigation. But there was an exchange of letters between the military commander and the prosecutors, both in Indonesia and in Holland. And they discussed the incidents and they agreed that if it would come to a prosecution of the responsible commander, it would undoubtedly result in a conviction and in a long imprisonment. But they decided that for political reasons and because the attention, international attention by the time had somewhat faded away, they decided not to prosecute. So they were aware of what they did immediately after. And it was one of the reasons for the court also to convict the Dutch to thestates, because they said from the start, you've realized what you've done, it's not that we are now applying norms that you weren't aware of at the time or that applied differently, weren't even existing at the time. These norms also applied at the time you knew it.

[/sc]

CH: Liesbeth Zegveld is a lawyer representing the family members of Indonesian men massacred by Dutch soldiers in the 1940s. She spoke with Carol in 2011. A court in the Netherlands has announced compensation for her clients.

[Music]

Wales Goats

Guest: Andrew Stewart

CH: In one town in Wales, some residents seem to think they're immune to COVID-19 and they're just thumbing their noses at all the new rules designed to contain it. Or they would if they had funds, which they don't because they're goats. These rogue goats are adamant that they are not sheep. And to prove it, they're floating lockdown regulations in the town of Llandudno. Local video and web producer Andrew Stewart has taken to documenting their reckless ways. We reached Mr. Stewart in Llandudno, Wales.

CO: Andrew, when did you first notice the growing presence of these goats in your town?

ANDREW STEWART: Well, the first time that I saw them was when they ran past the pub window at about midnight overnight. And yeah, they were just galloping down the street -- about 10-15 of them altogether. And then they went to square, which is about 50 yards or so away from us.

CO: I don't know what kind of pub you were in, but there are many stories of people being in pubs and seeing strange things. Was this something that you perhaps imagined?

AS: [Laughs] Well at first I thought it might have been that. But no, it definitely wasn't imagined because I went out and I checked what was going on outside. I got my camera out -- filmed a little bit of it and put it on social media. So it definitely happened. I hadn't had that much to drink. Definitely. [Laughs]

CO: And when did it seem that these goats actually started to really make themselves at home in your town?

AS: They did live on headland, which is just right by the town and they live on the hillside. And when it gets really windy, it's really hard for them to stay up there and stay upright and all that stuff. So they come down for a bit of shelter. They do cause a little bit havoc from time to time. There have been schools which don't really like them as well. They've had a bit of mayhem caused to sort of gardens around there. But they stay there and then go back. And now because there's nobody around, because obviously the UK is on lockdown because of COVID, there's no cars, there's no people, there's no noise, there's nothing to stop them. So they are going for it. They are adventurous and they love the fact that they can just keep going. And nothing is stopping them.

CO: Just quickly describe these creatures. Because I've seen the pictures. And so I know you're not hallucinating and they really are quite magnificent beasts.

AS: Absolutely. They are about sort of a white or off white colour. Really lovely fur on them. Really gorgeous fur. Nice, big, I guess they're called horns or antlers or something on them. Some of them have got absolutely fantastic. I got a picture of one eating the bush. It looked straight at the camera and it was amazing. [Laughs] And yet they're about four or five feet tall really. They're fantastic.

CO: So they're snacking on the hedges and they're sleeping in the churchyard I understand, at this point.

AS: Yeah, they are. They're snacking on hedges. They are climbing on walls. Climbing on houses as well. I've seen pictures of them doing that. And yeah, they go into the churchyard. And once they've had, you know, had their lunch, had their snack on the hedge and played about it, that they're sitting down in the churchyard in the sun, just, you know, chilling out for a bit and having a nice relax before they go back up to their home.

CO: How are people in town reacting to the goats taking over?

AS: They absolutely love it. They're all goats. We love them. And, you know, they absolutely love this. It's brilliant because they are causing a bit of a havoc and stuff. But, you know, when they're not going around causing utter rampage like yobs or anything, [laughter] like you know, it's something you can deal with. And it's magnificent to see them. And even the police, they said to me earlier today, there's not much they can do. They can just sort of try and get them back. And if there was lots of cars in the way, I'm sure there'll be another way of getting them away from danger. But at the moment, it's perfectly safe for them to do this because there's very very few cars about and very few people.

CO: And you did call the police on them. You do have rules in the UK about social gathering at this point, do you not?

AS: Oh, we definitely do have rules about social gathering -- unless you live in the same household, you not allowed to be in groups of more than two. You're not allowed to be any more than two metres -- you know, any less than two metres apart. You're only allowed out for exercise or for some very limited reasons. And that's like once a day or as little as possible. So if you have to go to the shop or work if you absolutely need to and stuff. And they're really not abiding by any of that [laughter].

CO: It doesn't seem that they care too much about your rules. Well they do have a herd mentality.

AS: They definitely do. Maybe they're going for herd immunity. We don't know.

CO: Andrew, it's great to talk to you. Thanks so much.

AS: Yeah, no problem. Thank you very much.

CH: Andrew Stewart is a video and web producer with the Manchester Evening News and a resident of Llandudno, Wales. That's where we reached him this evening. And you can find more about the rebel goats on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

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May 31, 2020 Episode Transcript

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