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The Current Transcript for March 27, 2020

Host: Matt Gallaway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

We've got a lot of data on this and this is that mass surveillance does not work.

MATT GALLOWAY: Stay home. That is the message from the prime minister and public health officials. But what if people won't heed that directive? The Toronto mayor, John Tory, has floated the idea of working with cell phone companies to use mobile data to track where people have been congregating. In an hour, a look at the ethics of that and whether it would even work. Also this morning.

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VOICE 1: While are you hanging in there make sure you keep your personal space out there.

VOICE 2: Space, guys.

MG: As some worry over empty shelves in grocery stores. We'll hear from others working to make sure those already struggling are still getting enough to eat. And later on this extended edition of The Current, Tom Powers speaks with the Canadian crooner Michael Bublé. He is helping convince people to stay home. Plus, what's happening in China, where, if you believe the officials, the pandemic is easing. We begin, though, in New York City, where the COVID-19 outbreak has suddenly exploded. Good morning. My name is Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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Alone and struggling to breathe, this COVID-19 patient's parents use video calls to keep watch as she sleeps

Guests: Manija Raofi, Dr. Chris Mendoza, Dr. Eric Rubin

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Today's kind of getting worse and worse. We had to get a refrigerated truck to store the bodies of patients who are dying. We are right now scrambling to try to get a few additional ventilators or even C-PAP machines. If we could get C-PAP machines, we could free up ventilators for patients who need them.

MG: That's an emergency room doctor in Queens speaking with The New York Times, the COVID-19 emergency in New York City is getting more dire by the hour, making it one of the worst hit areas on this side of the planet. The number of hospitalized patients jumped by 40 percent in one day, and there are not enough facemasks and ventilators to go around. Manija Raofi tested positive for COVID-19, but was sent home from the emergency room this week. She joins us now on the line from her home in Manhattan. Good morning.

MANIJA RAOFI: Good morning. Thank you for having me.

MG: Thanks for joining us. How are you feeling?

MANIJA RAOFI: I'm okay today. I just woke up in cold sweats, a lot of nausea this morning. When I think that I'm getting a little better, I feel like I just go backwards again.

MG: I'm sorry about that, and I'm sorry that this is so rough for you. You have somebody who's there taking care of you?

MANIJA RAOFI: No, unfortunately. I live in Manhattan alone with my two young children, but they were able to go with their dad for this past week, so I haven't seen them in a week. Just trying to, you know, keep everyone away from me.

MG: And your parents, they're in California.

MANIJA RAOFI: They're in California.

MG: Have they been checking in on you?

MANIJA RAOFI: They honestly They will face-time me on WhatsApp, and they just watch me sleep for hours, just to make sure that I'm okay. Because I have been having issues with my breathing. When I start coughing or if I talk too much, I just feel like my lungs just, like, I have the gasp for air. So they've been very worried. My mom wanted to come, I told her not to. But they are worried.

MG: They must be. Tell me how you ended up in the emergency department earlier this week.

MANIJA RAOFI: This week, I did test for positive on Saturday. They gave me a call, so it did take about five days to finally get the results. And I again was doing- I felt like I got hit by a truck one day, I went to go get tested. Thankfully, they did test me. And when I got the results, I felt like I was doing a little better, and then it goes back down to really horrible. I started hyper-ventilating, I just felt like I couldn't breathe. I was cough- I was on a really bad cough attack and I was- It was really hard getting air into my lungs. I was on the phone with my parents and they forced me to call an ambulance. So I did end up calling for an ambulance just because I was alone. I couldn't breathe. They came, took me to Lenox Hill Hospital, which they said was specializing in COVID-19. But, you know, They rolled me into that ER and everyone is suited up. The nurses are just in line waiting for the next patient. And it's almost like, it was kind of surreal, you know. I just felt like I was this outsider — I did something bad almost, for even having it. And I felt horrible just being there. But they're really nice. They put me on oxygen for a few hours. They stabilized my breathing. I had a fever, and they put like three bags of fluid in me just because I was so dehydrated. And it's also just because it hurts so bad to walk even to the kitchen to get a cup of water for yourself. So it is just the most painful experience I've ever gone through.

MG: Why did they send you home? If it's so bad, what are you doing at home and not still in the hospital?

MANIJA RAOFI: They, honestly, I don't think they have enough room. They said that they had stabilized my oxygen, my fever had gone down, and that's all they could possibly do for me at that point. They said, if I don't feel good again or if I feel like I cannot breathe to come right back to the emergency room. And that's what they're doing with everybody, I noticed in the emergency room. Everyone was kind of just in an out after a few hours of being there. That was the fastest I've ever, I've gone to the emergency room before but this is the fastest I've ever been charged.

MG: You said you woke up this morning and you were in a cold sweat and you feel terrible. Will you go back to the emergency department?

MANIJA RAOFI: I don't think so. I wouldn't want to take a bed away from someone else who really needs it. If I feel like I can't breathe again, or if I'm at a loss of breath, or if my coughing does get worse again, I would probably go. They did take an X-ray of my chest, which brought me some relief. So my chest was clear. But That's honestly all I was worried about was my chest, if I had caught pneumonia or not.

MG: Take care of yourself. I really appreciate you talking to us, but you really you need to look out for yourself and I hope that you're doing okay.

MANIJA RAOFI: Thank you so much.

MG: Manija Raofi lives in Manhattan. She's currently in self-isolation after testing positive for COVID-19. The situation in New York is a grim one. And triaging who gets a bed and who doesn't is just one of the many challenges facing health care providers in that city. Dr. Chris Mendoza is an E.R. physician at New York Presbyterian Brooklyn Methodist Hospital. Doctor, good morning to you.

DR. CHRIS MENDOZA: Morning, thank you for having me on the show.

MG: Thanks to you, you're incredibly busy and I really appreciate you taking some time to talk to us. What is life like for you in the E.R. these days?

DR. CHRIS MENDOZA: It is difficult. You know, I think that the patient who is just speaking is really expressing a pretty typical visit to our E.R. right now. They are luckier patients, to be honest. You know, what we know about this viral disease is that it causes a significant amount of inflammation in the lungs for a lot of people, which limits their ability to like oxygenate their body. And a lot of our guidelines are shifted from our normal guidelines, meaning our threshold to admit these patients is very different than it was three weeks ago before this pandemic. And as much as we'd want to admit people to help them feel better and for comfort reasons, we really have to just allocate resources as needed in order to save lives these days instead of- it's just a different world.

MG: A different world. What are you up against in terms of- We've heard a lot about the shortage of, for example, personal protective equipment. What are you up against when it comes to making sure that you're safe and that your colleagues are safe as you're treating patients?

DR. CHRIS MENDOZA: Yes, I mean, I think resources has been the biggest issue. And I think that's known. But especially with personal protective equipment, you know, at the beginning of this pandemic, one of the biggest issues before that personal protective equipment became an issue was just everyone's fear. You know, we all had statistics knowing that only a small percentage of people, especially younger people, a small percentage of young people will actually get any significant disease from us. But, you know, as it started to grow in New York City, fear also started to grow because everyone always thinks they're going to be that small percentage. And when we found out that our personal protective equipment may be in short supply, it just multiplied everyone's concerns. The real thing that we're doing now is that, you know, we, at our institution, we would never let anyone work is not protected. So we have had to ration out our personal protective equipment while maintaining like an adequate amount of protection for our providers. And so far, it's working. And luckily, we were lucky enough to have a couple of reusable items which have really helped decrease the usage of personal protective equipment. And we're hoping, we're hoping that we'll be able to get through this without having to take any unnecessary precautions, you know.

MG: We've heard a lot about ventilators as well. And the push to get more ventilators into New York City, into the states, into hospitals like yours. In places where there haven't been enough ventilators, you think of countries like Italy, they've had to make really difficult decisions about allocating those pieces of equipment. Are you there yet?

DR. CHRIS MENDOZA: Not quite yet. You know, that's I think from the physician side. I mean, when I talk when I say provider, I mean those two PAs and Ps. That from the physician side, [unintelligible] on us generally to make these decisions because a lot of them will have to be made in real time with not much time to make this decision. That's probably our biggest fear about what could happen in this crisis. Luckily, at our hospital, we are not there yet. The system I worked for is trying very hard to spread resources out where they're needed most and to make sure that we maintain this. Also, there's a lot of ingenuity of people within our system who are thinking of ways to use sense in different ways to maybe help more than one person.

MG: What would that decision look like? I mean, what would the calculus be if you don't have enough equipment?

DR. CHRIS MENDOZA: So that calculus would be using the data we know from other countries and other cities within the United States to find out what the mortality rates are amongst different people of different ages with different medical problems. And then unfortunately, having to choose some people, hopefully we never get there, but the idea would be that we would withhold it from people who have a very low likelihood of surviving regardless of the ventilator or not.

MG: Do you think that you're on the trajectory where you'll have to make those decisions?

DR. CHRIS MENDOZA: You know, it's one of those things that it's definitely a potential and our system is coming up with a set of guidance for the physician so that it's not something that each individual physician has to think about on their own. But, you know, it's really impossible to know because New York City has really come together in an amazing way with social distancing and with what they're doing to help us with personal protective equipment. We just really hope that we're able to flatten the curve enough to extend the use of all of our reusable resources, like ventilators, so that we don't have to. But it's something we all fear is coming in the next weeks.

MG: Tell me about fear. Just finally, there's a lot of fear and anxiety out there. Are you feeling that as well?

DR. CHRIS MENDOZA: You know, I think everyone has a certain amount of fear. But what we're seeing now, now that we're about two and a half, three weeks into this in New York, is that a lot of - not a lot - but there have been some providers that have tested positive and have been sick and actually most of them are coming back to work now. So seeing these people recover from this mysterious viral pneumonia is, I think, giving people a lot more confidence that we will get through this. And it's helping with the fear. But unfortunately, everyone has older relatives. Every provider has parents, and we're all worried about them more than we are about ourselves but we do need to keep doing our job. So fear is prevalent. But it's the hardest thing to manage, but we're trying our best.

MG: You're doing incredible work and it's really important. And again, I appreciate you taking a little bit of time to talk to us about that. Good luck and thank you.

DR. CHRIS MENDOZA: Thank you very much,.

MG: Dr. Chris Mendoza is an E.R. physician, director of quality at the New York Presbyterian Brooklyn Methodist Hospital in New York. New York is the epicenter of the COVID-19 outbreak right now. But this pandemic stretches right across the United States into every state and territory with over 81,000 cases. The U.S. now has the most in the world, surpassing both Italy and China. More than 1200 people have died in the United States. And for more on the U.S. response and what might be ahead, I'm joined by Dr. Eric Rubin. He's editor in chief of the New England Journal of Medicine. Doctor, good morning to you.

DR. ERIC RUBIN: Morning.

MG: What is it like for you to hear those stories? One patients who I think most people believe should probably still be in the hospital and she wakes up in a cold sweat and has difficulty breathing. Another is a doctor who says that they simply don't have enough equipment, whether it's personal protective equipment or ventilators, to treat everybody that needs treatment. What is it like for you to hear those stories?

DR. ERIC RUBIN: I think there are a couple of lessons there. I think that Miss Raofi pointed out that she was told and understands that when were there are limited resources, people have to make sacrifices. It might be more comfortable to be in the hospital, but for someone like her, where the risk of developing very severe disease is relatively low and they can come back to the hospital if they're sick, it makes a lot of sense for her to be at home, as uncomfortable as that is. And for Doctor Mendoza, it's very discouraging to hear not only the issues about resources for patients, but the resources for medical caregivers. After all, these are the people we rely on and we're not doing a very good job of protecting them. We know from Italy, we know from China that a lot of health care workers become sick and several have died. And that is starting to be the case in the US. If we can't take care of our caregivers, we're really setting ourselves up for disaster.

MG: Why wasn't the U.S. better prepared for this? This is the richest country in the world, and it has, you would think, all the resources at its disposal. Why wasn't the country better prepared for this?

DR. ERIC RUBIN: I think that's going to be an important question later, because there's no question that this is something that could have been anticipated. We did have a head start, but given the experiences in China and knowing that this was certainly going to come here, we should have been better prepared. And I think that people should pay the price for that eventually. Right now, we are where we are. And I think that people like Dr. Mendoza, who we just heard from, are going to make decisions based on what we have right now and at the same time trying to tool up for what things will be like in a week or two weeks or three weeks when there are a lot more patients and hopefully more supplies.

MG: What do you think things will be like in a week or two weeks in New York City?

DR. ERIC RUBIN: Well, the social distancing that they're using has, is, probably going to have an effect. Unfortunately, the effect of social distancing is delayed and it depends on what kind of modeling you look at. It's delayed by a week, two weeks, maybe three weeks. So I think we have not reached the peak of this yet in New York. And we still have a little while before that's going to happen. Looking at it from the perspective of Boston, where I am, where we may be a little less away from New York and we're looking at being like them in a short time. We started social distancing here earlier in the epidemic than New York did. And we hope that in our place that that will have an effect and we won't reach the peaks that they're reaching there. Different localities in the U.S., which doesn't have such a strong federal public health system, it's really a state by state issue, are going to impact different area very differently.

MG: And then you hear the president say that he wants the economy reopened, you know, soon, within a matter of weeks, perhaps Easter or sometime around there. As a doctor, what goes through your mind when you hear that?

DR. ERIC RUBIN: One can hope that he will listen to public health advice at the time.

MG: That's a very measured statement.

DR. ERIC RUBIN: It is. I think- I understand that, I understand that the impulse is to try to make decisions now for the future. We're not even close to being there. Certainly the economic consequences of having an additional hundreds of thousands of people die are much more severe than I think some people are taking into account.

MG: Just in the last minute or so, is there anything that you think Canada could learn from what's happening in the United States right now?

DR. ERIC RUBIN: So Canada is fortunately a little bit behind the U.S. Canada has several advantages over the U.S. One is regional planning because there is a much more strong federal system. We don't really have that here where you have hospital by hospital planning. And I think that there's the opportunity to make some very good moves, like, for example, designating hospitals for specific kinds of care and something that's much more difficult to do here. A pregnant woman shouldn't be going into the same hospital as all the COVID-19 patients, for example. And I think that the other thing, of course, is that there is more centralized allocation of resources, and that's important. When there's a crisis in New York, there should be more resources given to New York and not in anticipation of what can happen three weeks from now in a state like Texas or some states where there is much less disease.

MG: Eric, good to speak with you and I wish you the best as well. Thank you.

DR. ERIC RUBIN: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Dr. Eric Rubin, editor in chief of the New England Journal of Medicine, wanted to leave you with the voice of someone who sees a little bit of hope and goodness in the midst of this crisis, even after he himself contracted COVID-19. Chad Kimball stars in the Broadway production of the musical Come From Away. Here's what he had to say about the helpers in this pandemic and his own experience with this virus.

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It comes in waves. And that was kind of the frustrating thing about it is I thought that I was getting better after my fever broke. And then a couple of days later, it just came roaring back, the worst feeling and the most ominous feeling of it - and I'm pretty healthy. You know, I work out five days a week. I'm very active. I have no underlying conditions. But the scariest and kind of most ominous part of it was this feeling of, you know, someone kind of pushing you down on your chest and not being able to move because you're so fatigued. My sister is actually making masks right now for health care workers and that kind of thing is happening all over the United States. And so it's really heartening. And it really is kind of like a testament to our show. The spirit of our show is that come alive. And that's what our show is really about. So it's a hopeful time. At the same time, it's a sad time, you know. So the important thing is to find the hope in it and to find that comfort in it.

MG: That's Broadway. Actor Chad Kimball from the musical Come From Away he is currently recovering from COVID-19. Well, the CBC News is next. And then he makes one hundred lunches a week for children who are out of school. Jon Pritchard is one of many Canadians helping to feed people during this crisis. The need, though, is great and this country's food banks are struggling to keep up with that need. You'll hear more of how people are trying to address that. Coming up in about six minutes time. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

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Food helpers

Guests: Michelle Porter, John Pritchard, Laura Lansink

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, you know that cell phone you're always holding, the filthy one that you should probably clean right about now? Some countries are using it to track the spread of COVID-19. But just because we can doesn't mean we should. That story in half an hour. But first, demand is high in Canada's food banks and the cupboards are getting bare.

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VOICE 1: Good good. You come for lunch?

VOICE 2: Yes.

VOICE 1: Can I give you a loaf of bread?

VOICE 2: Yes. Yes. Oh Gee.

VOICE 3: Some bread. Whoo!

VOICE 2: You made my day.

VOICE 1: Alright. I'll give you some muffins.

VOICE 2: Yes. Sure.

VOICE 1: Listen, do you need anything else?

VOICE 2: I need food.

MG: The cheerful but busy sounds of a rescue mission in Nova Scotia. As we get deeper into this pandemic, a growing number of Canadians are facing a distressing problem, a lack of food. Across this country, people are scrambling to help feed the hungry. And that has been especially challenging since many organizations depend on volunteers. And many of those volunteers are seniors who can't continue their work. Michelle Porter runs the Souls Harbor Rescue Mission, the one you just heard. She and her small team are pumping out hundreds of hot meals a day more than ever. Michelle's in Halifax. Michelle. Good morning.

MICHELLE PORTER: Good morning from Halifax.

MG: What's up for lunch this morning? Today.

MICHELLE PORTER: Oh, well, chefs cooking up some stew, roasted red potatoes and the lunchbox are being filled with homemade chocolate pudding, granola bars, apples, oranges, fresh baked bread and butter from a local bakery. Bottled water. So it's a really good lunch today.

MG: It certainly sounds like it. How are you managing to do all of this in the middle of a pandemic?

MICHELLE PORTER: Oh, we are. We're working around the clock. We have a skeleton staff. You know, on top of that, we have to have supplies ready for requests. Things like toilet paper, women's hygiene products, soap, gloves, masks. So it's keeping us busy, that's for sure.

MG: How has life in your kitchen changed as this pandemic has unfolded?

MICHELLE PORTER: Well, I thought we were really good at cleaning the kitchen before. That is one thing that's changed, limiting the food that's coming in. It's got to be baked or cooked on site. Just some of these little things that you don't think about when there's no pandemic around. Right.

MG: You talked about a skeleton staff. What happened with your staff? You had to lay a number of them off.

MICHELLE PORTER: Yes, I did. I had to lay off over half of them, many of them from our thrift store. And of course, that's a source of income for our mission, which we don't have anymore. And I know we're not alone in that. This is happening across our country.

MG: Despite the fact he had to lay them off, though. You still need people to be involved in this. So how are you getting people in to ensure that the food is getting out the door?

MICHELLE PORTER: So the funny thing is our people are just so committed that they're coming in any way. I will work even if you don't pay me. I will make sure that we feed our neighbors.

MG: Oh wow.

MICHELLE PORTER: So it's been really beautiful to watch.

MG: What are you seeing around you in terms of the need for food? I mean, shelters and rescues and food banks are busy all the time. But right now, what are you saying?

MICHELLE PORTER: Well, I'm seeing all of us as leaders scrambling. We don't even have time to confer with one another because this just all happened so quickly. You know how our cities are and provinces are becoming state of emergencies with hardly any notice. And so we're just really working things out as we go. And as for our clients and guests, I'm seeing that they're being very positive that they are trying to follow orders as best as possible regarding clustering, social distancing. So I'm actually encouraged by it.

MG: Tell me a bit more about your clients and your guests, as you say. How are they? We're all we're all stressed. We're all feeling anxiety. We're worried about what's happening and where this is going to go. Tell me more about how they're doing.

MICHELLE PORTER: Well, like I said, they are maintaining a lot of positivity, happiness. We actually handed out happy packs this week, just a little treats to go along with the lunch. Yesterday, someone came and asked Greg to pray with him. He said, I'm just so anxious. I don't know what to do. And so we're taking those small moments to just instill hope in people and let them know this will end. We've survived 100 percent of our difficult days so far. And we just need to take care of each other.

MG: Who's Greg?

MICHELLE PORTER: Greg is our host and he comes six days a week right now and he knows all of our guests by name. And he is just a beautiful person.

MG: What makes him - that's an important role - what does he bring to that role? Because you need, coming to ask for food, coming to rely on somebody else can be a difficult thing. It can be a humbling thing. You can feel some shame in that. What does he bring to that role?

MICHELLE PORTER: I think Greg brings the ability to give people their dignity. He is not just someone providing a service, but he is a friend helping out another friend. And, you know, we've dubbed him our chief thankfulness officer because no matter what the circumstances, he is always just positive and being thankful and hopeful.

MG: And so when people come in for their meals, we heard a little bit of that at the beginning. Just describe the atmosphere in the mission.

MICHELLE PORTER: That's a lot different now for all of us. If they don't come in, they open. They touch the outside doorknob. We touch the inside doorknob. If they do ask to come in and use our restroom. You know, Greg will say, okay, just one moment and then he walks six feet away. Let them come in and go to the washroom. So things are a little bit slower. We have to move our meal to a five hour spread to prevent clustering. And so the days are longer for all of us.

MG: And in all of that, you're still able to not just provide the meals, but, as you say, provide dignity to those who rely on your work.

MICHELLE PORTER: Yes, that's really our goal through all of this for sure, is to make sure people are well-nourished and we take care of their stomach and their soul, so to speak.

MG: How are you coping with all of this?

MICHELLE PORTER: Day by day for sure. I just kind of feel like my job is to take care of the people who are taking care of the people. And so I want to lead my staff and make sure that they are feeling supported and that they have what they need to, you know, provide 300 lunches a day.

MG: How are you taking care of yourself, though? This is disrupting and unsettling for all of us.

MICHELLE PORTER: I have a really good team around me. We have something that we call the Hope Club. Every day we email each other with, well, first of all, our temperatures, memes, some pictures of our pets. And my husband is actually in self-quarantine. He is high risk. So I am coming home at night and basically getting my beauty sleep. And I think that's helping as well.

MG: The Hope Club is something that, to you, every morning provides a little bit of inspiration in the midst of all of this?

MICHELLE PORTER: It absolutely does. Yes. And I mean, even the staff we've laid off or contributing, we want to maintain that sense of teamwork because this will end and we'll come back together again soon.

MG: How long are you going to be able to continue to do this? We have no idea. To your point, it will end, but we don't know when do. And so how long will you be right continue to do this?

MICHELLE PORTER: Well, last week we worked out our - we call it our ship - so it's our Souls Harbor pandemic plan. And then this week we're talking about more long term, well you can do anything for two weeks. But what are we going to do if this last two months, four months? And so how will we do it? We will make sure we have a plan in place, that we do proper self-care and that we're taking care of ourselves as a team. And then just hoping and praying the community rallies around us to keep providing the groceries that we need.

MICHELLE PORTER: Well, that's the last point is what do you want Canadians to know about the work and to understand what you need to continue this work?

MG: I think I would encourage you in whatever city that you were listening from right now to donate to your local food bank and your soup kitchens. Figure out what they need, not what you want to give. Cash is king right now. We can buy granola bars a lot cheaper than you can drop them off for. And so if you can, you know, keep the money flowing, somehow we. You'd be surprised how much we can serve on four dollars and eighty five cents a day.

MG: Michelle, it's great to talk to you. You're doing important work and you're making a real difference. And good luck with lunch today.

MICHELLE PORTER: Thank you.

MG: Michelle Porter is in Halifax. She runs the Soul's Harbor Rescue Mission from Halifax to P.E.I. Something smells pretty good on the grill.

SOUNDCLIP

Today's meal is going to be a beef taco bowl. I'm going to make about 100 or 110 portions for distribution starting this afternoon. And yes, this is the sound of 20 pounds of beef so far.

MG: John Pritchard is in his Charlottetown kitchen. He is making all those taco bowls for children on Prince Edward Island. Before the schools on the island closed, he made hot lunches at seven schools there. He's concerned about how those children have been eating since. Chef. Good morning.

JOHN PRITCHARD: Good morning.

MG: Tell us a bit more about what you're up to.

JOHN PRITCHARD: Well, we have decided to pledge at least 100 hot meals for four kids a week, here. We're just trying to do our best to sort of fill in the gaps of about what we were doing in the past.

MG: Why are you doing this?

JOHN PRITCHARD: Plain and simple: there's a need. You know, there's tons of kids out there whose main meal of the day was what they're getting at school. We have a school food program here that is based upon a pay if you can model. And so that has been a real sort of real saving thing for a lot of families that don't have the income to provide. And now that that has kind of dried up, I saw kind of a need to sort of make sure that these people were taking care of. But as we continued, we realized that, you know, if you can't afford a meal for your kid, no, you probably can't afford one for yourself either. So it's kind of morphed a little bit. And really, it's about anybody who's in need. I mean, how do you distinguish between who should get something and who shouldn't get it? I mean, and you have to maintain people's dignity at the same time. So if there's a need and somebody wants something, somebody needs a meal, ask for it. And you got it.

MG: We heard you at the grill at the beginning there. What sort of stuff are you cooking?

JOHN PRITCHARD: Well, today it's a beef taco bowl, which is more like a more burrito going out. Previous to that, we did a really great beef stew, like local grass fed beef with root vegetables. And up next will probably be turkey pot pie.

MG: And how does this work? How do you go about connecting with the people who need the food?

JOHN PRITCHARD: Well, that's were the challenge is. You know, I started with this idea. And in order to get the idea out there, I hit Facebook really hard. And the response on Facebook was overwhelming. And as time went on, I realized most of the people coming back to me were people that wanted to help or people that want to donate some money or some product, which is great. But I think due to the algorithms on Facebook, the people I was really trying to reach with the need weren't being accessed. So I then put it down to the Facebook community, you know, rather than liking sharing, you know, look a little deeper into your neighborhood and see what's happened there. And from there, I start getting people coming back to me. Well, I know this person. I know that person. Pretty soon the inbox are going up and the telephone start ringing.

MG: And so when those people are identified, those people who need a meal, what happens then?

JOHN PRITCHARD: Well, I find out whether or not they can pick up or whether they needed delivery, which would be coming from one of our volunteers. We figure out a time and it is ready whenever they need it. And so far, we haven't had to, we haven't stalled out on anything. You know, there's been enough donations that we've passed a pastor our 100 meal a week mark. We'll probably do about 300 this week.

MG: 300 meals a week.

JOHN PRITCHARD: Well, this week. Yeah. I mean, it's all kind of interdependent upon, you know, the generosity of others. And also, we're doing another safe meal plan for those who can't pay. So that, in effect, is kind of funding the free food.

MG: Tell me a bit more about how people respond to this. These are people - we're just speaking earlier about, those who rely on food at the at the mission in Halifax - that you can find yourself in a pinch and you can feel some shame. There's a stigma around asking somebody for help because you think you should be able to do it on your own. When you are able to connect with those people and give them something delicious to eat, how do they respond?

JOHN PRITCHARD: Well, it runs the gamut. Sometimes it's absolutely heartbreaking. You know, I had one parent reach out to me and they talked about how ashamed they were that they were doing this. And, you know, my immediate response was, no, there's absolutely no shame providing for your kids. You know, if you're a super parent, you're willing to, you know, go the mile to make sure kids are taking care of. Adding to that, I said, well, you know, was there anybody else in your neighborhood that, you know, that would benefit by this? And they said, well, I'll think about that maybe about. Maybe 12 hours later, this particular person got back to me, said: I got, there's an elderly couple who are both in the hospital recently. And, you know, they don't really have much in the way of resources. And it really sparked her. You know, this was now a way that she was able to give back as well. So it kind of went from feeling bad about having to ask for something as basic as a hot meal, to a feeling that she's being productive and useful and providing that for somebody else as well. So that's a really cool kind of paying forward thing.

MG: Can I go back, and this is about you paying it forward. This is work that you have done. I mean, now in this crisis. But I mentioned as well you're making lunches at seven schools on the island as well. You're a busy guy, successful chef. You don't need to do this, but you choose to do it. Why do you choose to be involved in this way?

JOHN PRITCHARD: I'm not really sure you know. As I said in the beginning, it just seemed to be a need. And importantly, we have kind of a self-contained kitchen here. We have a 800 square foot kitchen in the basement of our residents. So we thought with having to be separate all the time, we could sort of create a sort of sequestered environment where we're absolutely sure that whatever was coming out of here was safe. There's not can be any transmission of anything except good, good flavor. So it just seems, you know, we're not doing the meals. I'm not doing any catering. And we have a kitchen that's sitting here idle. So why wouldn't I? You know, and I'm so glad I did. You know, the response from other people and the support has been overwhelming.

MG: You say you're not doing any catering. You do have a business. And we know that and we were speaking about this yesterday in the program. Restaurants have been clobbered by this pandemic. How has the situation affected you?

JOHN PRITCHARD: While we've gone from, you know, being really busy and still fielding calls for events in the summer to absolutely nothing. And, you know, it's also, you know, the people who have had events planned and so forth in the summer, large weddings and things like that. They're all super nervous now. They're calling me up and saying, well, what's going to happen here? Are we. Are we going to have to cancel this and do we get our deposit back? So if there's a whole sort of snowball effect here and it's really anxious for a lot of people.

MG: Do you worry yourself personally about your own business?

JOHN PRITCHARD: Yes, I do. I think that's kind of partly my coping mechanism is going down in the kitchen and just continuing to work to try to do something positive. And it sort of gives me a direction to work towards it and think about that isn't as dire as this is. What happens sometimes when you're left alone with your thoughts.

MG: You're making a real difference in the work that you're doing and you know that. I appreciate you doing that work and I appreciate you talking to us this morning, Chef. Thank you.

JOHN PRITCHARD: Not at all. Our pleasure.

MG: John Pritchard is a chef and caterer on P.E.I. He's promised to cook at least 100 hot meals weekly for hungry children and others during this pandemic. As he said, it's cooked maybe 300 thus far this week. Beyond those individual efforts, you know that food banks across this country are struggling to keep up with a growing number of people who can't afford to feed themselves or their families. Laura Lansink is executive director of Foodbank B.C. Their food banks serve close to 100,000 people a month. Laura, good morning to you.

LAURA LANSINK: Good morning. And hello from B.C.

MG: What are you hearing from food bank staff and volunteers across your province this week?

LAURA LANSINK: Well, the message that I am hearing and that we're trying to get out there is B.C.'s food banks are open. We are here for you. We are not going to close. We won't abandon you.

MG: Are those concerns that your clients had that perhaps in the midst of everything changing day by day, hour by hour, that food banks could be one of the things that could see their doors closed?

LAURA LANSINK: Absolutely. We are seeing the shelves in the supermarkets. Stock is dwindling. That means that when people don't have their own food that they're taking home for their families, they may not donating that food. Then there's less food available for purchase by the food banks. And that that's an uneasy feeling when you're, you know, going to the food bank or if you that food bank trying to make sure that you have ample supplies for the people that are coming to you for help.

MG: So how has that changed how food banks operate? Start with access to food. Are you still able to get a hold of the food that you need when, as you say, people might go into the grocery store and they'll see some of the shelves that they are used to buying things from empty?

LAURA LANSINK: It's a little alarming, but we're working now more with our grocery partners, asking them, please prioritize our food bank orders. Please make sure that you remember that although, you know, the demand is high right now. These are people that don't have the luxury of driving from store to store to try to find the particular groceries that they want. These are people that really do need help. And we want to make sure that our shelves at the food banks are full so that at least stress is off those clients.

MG: What about those who are working and volunteering in the food banks? Are they able to be kept on or are paid staff still there? You still able to give- food banks often rely on volunteers and a huge core of volunteers. Are they able to still be part of that?

LAURA LANSINK: Well, volunteers are the backbone of all of our food bank operations. And without missing a beat when we needed to change our food banks did that, they're doing things like home delivery has been expanded. The hours of their operation have been expanded so that they can prevent any crowding. They are doing Drive-Thru service at the food bank. Telephone orders so that people can make sure that they get what they need when they come in, limiting access, etc.. But those volunteers, most of the volunteers, I would venture to say maybe even 75 percent of that core volunteer workforce, are over the age of 65. And those are often those people that are at high risk. So we are hearing that food banks are running on skeleton staff. They are, you know, working very, very long hours as well to make sure that they're up and their operations are ready to go in the morning when the food bank opens again.

MG: What's your understanding of how the clientele has changed as this pandemic has taken hold?

LAURA LANSINK: Well, I nervously watching the E.I. application rate that we're being told is rising. Last time I heard it was close to a million Canadians had already applied for EI. Now we're serving close to 100,000 people every month. If you look at those numbers, we could expect to see maybe 200,000 people on E.I. in British Columbia. You know, are we then looking at doubling our numbers or even tripling our numbers? We're not sure. But again, we're watching this with apprehension. The reports I have coming back from a number of food banks are they are already seeing their lineups double and demand increasing. It's, I am a little concerned that it will get worse before it gets better.

MG: And perhaps people who have never had to access a food bank before never even thought that they would need to go to a food bank, will now find themselves needing to turn in your direction.

LAURA LANSINK: Absolutely. Many of us live already from paycheck to paycheck. We are not necessarily going to the food bank, but, you know, we have to be careful. So when it means that one or two paychecks are maybe missing and we haven't had any help and we don't have the family to turn to, that means that those people have to take the step of going to the food bank and it's a hard step to take. But you've got to feed your family. And again, we're going to be there when you need to come and get help.

MG: You ask the provincial government for emergency funding. What are you looking for?

LAURA LANSINK: We, in the short term, we're hoping that the provincial government will give us at least a million dollars. With a hundred food banks we have across B.C., we're hoping that that would at least enable us to purchase that food, which we're having to do, as I said, donations are down. Yesterday, we were encouraged that our provincial government designated the food banks here as essential services and which they absolutely are. And so we're hoping that that's going to be a turning point and that people will see and remember with all that's going on, that, hey, I need to support my food bank. And we're certainly, you know, talking with a lot of people, donors, partners and our government to make sure that we can keep our doors open.

MG: Well, and that's what I was just going to end with. In the remaining seconds that we have, we've seen great generosity across this country in the midst of this. And you're hoping to see that for your way as well.

LAURA LANSINK: Absolutely. People, for the most part are, you know, people want to help. We see this, the generosity and the caring spring out of people. They have their own selves, their family to be concerned about, but they also worry about their friends and neighbors. And those are the people that are going to the food bank. You don't always know who they are, but they are your friends and neighbors. They are the ones that your kids are going to school with.

MG: Laura, good luck and thanks for speaking with us about the important work that you're doing. Thank you.

LAURA LANSINK: Thank you so much.

MG: Laura Lensink is executive director of Food Banks, British Columbia. We reached her in Surrey, B.C.. Coming up in about 90 seconds, consider your cell phone. It knows exactly where you are at any given time. And that information could be useful in tracking this pandemic. Could be a huge privacy breach as well. We'll try and discuss both of those issues and see whether there is common ground to be found and how that data could be used. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. Stick around.

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Data Tracing, James Mullinger

Guests: Randy Goebel, Dr. David Strong, James Mullinger

MG: I'm Matt Galloway you're listening to The Current. Are you spending more time online these days? Many Canadians are. And whether you know it or not, you're leaving behind a lot of virtual breadcrumbs. Everything from your late night Google searches to your location. That information is highly coveted data. And now some want to use it to stop this pandemic by tracking where people are congregating. Countries like China, Israel and South Korea have a jump start on this. Here in Canada, despite privacy concerns, the prime minister, Justin Trudeau, hasn't ruled this practice out. Randy Goebel is a co-founder of the Alberta Machine Intelligence Institute. He believes that big data can and should be used to make better health care decisions. Randy, good morning.

RANDY GOEBEL: Good morning, Matt. How are you?

MG: I'm well. What do you make of this idea that my cell phone location data could be useful in the fight against COVID-19?

RANDY GOEBEL: Well, the answer is definitely this can be useful because knowing how people cross paths, for example, when we have an increased intensity scrutinizing where people go, knowing where they don't know where they congregate, deploys resources that are scarce already to be able to inform people that they need to be separate. So there's no question about it being useful. The biggest questions seem to be about who gathers that data stores so that he uses it.

MG: How would this work? People have the phone in the pocket, in the purse, in the bag, how is that data then able to be aggregated? And tell us something about what might be going on in the course of this pandemic.

RANDY GOEBEL: It's it's probably the case that everyone who has a smartphone has five to seven different applications that ask them or that in the background gather their sort of positioning data anyway. We're all pretty cavalier when we download an app that we want to use for some value and it says, is it okay to use your location? You usually just touch the yes button. So there are lots of them already generating data. The position of some of the places in the world, including Canada, that want to use that to manage the distribution of people to stop COVID is to take that data and to send it to your phone to say, oh, sorry, you're too close to these people, or did you know you just crossed paths with someone who has been confirmed with COVID-19. So to use it as a signaling device to say you shouldn't be here or if you are here, you should talk to these people because you've just crossed paths with someone who has been confirmed with this virus.

MG: And that's how it's being used? I would get a text message saying I'm too close to somebody or that I'd need to go and see a public health official because I may have come in contact with somebody else.

RANDY GOEBEL: Essentially, you're using the device as a signaling device and how it actually works, whether it's pings you or sends you a message or writes a letter and puts it in the post. There are broad variety of ways of doing this, but that's essentially it, is that- Remember, these devices are almost always on. They're almost always enabled to be able to track and generate data. The question is who gets to look at that data. In principle, it's informing you where you are and what your contact is being with with clusters of people and whether you crossed paths with someone that's diseased.

MG: In this country, how difficult is it for governments to get a hold of that sort of information? That's already happening in other places. I mentioned Israel in the introduction, but here in Canada, how difficult is that?

MG: That is a really important question and a difficult one to answer, because the difficulty of getting access to the data is the difficulty of the public decision to use whatever legislation and health data access is in place to be able to use it. And so you had a lot of sensitivity about this. Even that we give away so much of this data in our digital exhaust, moment by moment, when someone explicitly says we're going to use it for something, then the sensitivities rise. And when those sensitivities rise, you have all of these discussions that are impediments to getting access to the data that have to be resolved before you actually get access to the data. Under special emergency acts and all of the other things, even the World Health Organization has a protocol for what it means to secure and get access to data. When you can navigate those quickly, you get access quickly and can make use of the data quickly. However, what we know is that every such situation creates opportunity for less than popular use of these things all the way from scammers and identity theft to insurance companies.

MG: How is this not a massive violation of my privacy or is it that I've already abandoned that? Because to your point, I clicked on the user agreement without actually reading what these agreements said?

RANDY GOEBEL: Absolutely right. That tradeoff is there. And it with the according to sort of Canadian law, that interpretation of law and culture, it would seem like a massive invasion of privacy if someone decided, a government decided, to just gather all this data themselves. For example, the discussions in the newspapers about the mayor of Toronto and premier of Ontario talking about considering the use of cell phone data and talking to some of the big providers. Can that be done? In principle, yes. There's no technical reason it can't be done. Can it be done legally? Well, when you declare a state of emergency in the jurisdiction, sometimes you have that authority. So I think that that's part of the problem.

MG: Well, that's the other question. Now, does privacy, in our understanding of privacy go out the window when, for example, we're in the midst of a pandemic?

RANDY GOEBEL: I don't think it has to, but that notion of privacy comes down to notion of trust. So do you trust that this data is being used by a public authority that will use it for the purposes intended? And that's the case where there's an emergency or not. As an academic scientist, I have to navigate the trust conditions to get access to the health data. I look at it to be able to apply my own artificial intelligence machine learning processes to it to look for value in that data. So that part doesn't change. But when it's done under these conditions, it accelerates the intensity of how to decide what to do.

MG: Edward Snowden was part of a livestream interview on Wednesday. He was asked whether there might be public health interest in sharing this kind of data. Have a listen to what he said.

SOUNDCLIP

Well, generally, we've got a lot of data on this. And this is that mass surveillance does not work. Remember when we looked at the case of counterterrorism in the United States, and even in that case, and again, remember, they've sacrificed the privacy of at least 330 million people to operate this program for more than a decade. And they found that they had never stopped a single terrorist attack.

MG: Randy Goebel, what do you make of his contention that if you can set aside the privacy concerns- good luck with that - but if you can do that, that this whole practice simply doesn't work in the first place?

RANDY GOEBEL: Well, Snowden's position is about mass surveillance, looking for things that that governments are interested in to preserve peace. Mass surveillance is the key here because we're not talking up mass surveillance. We're talking just right now. We're talking about movement patterns. Advertising agencies follow your digital exhaust to see what your movement pattern drive, to see if they can send you a voucher to buy something that the place is closest to. So it's the notion of having a goal and and a target value and a performance indicator about proximity distribution over time that makes a difference. So in this case and you have a target there that's about public good. What it doesn't say much about. And what of course, Snowden never said much about, was the duration of capture and how long this data is stored and who gets to use it. And I think in the current situations, we can make that very clear.

MG: There's a lot of data that's been collected, not just location data, but also health care information. Should that be shared more widely, do you think, in the midst of a health crisis like the one we're in now?

RANDY GOEBEL: In the current health crisis, one of the things that we need more data about and that people are starting to gather is the distribution of impact. So people have speculated on what special physical health attributes young people have over old people regarding the intensity of the impact of COVID. So in the short term, the health data about your disposition, whether you're a complex multi morbidity condition patient, an old person with multiple diseases or a young person that's fit, an athlete or a baby or something like that, having a distribution of health properties like that is important because it just gives you another signal about where to concentrate the resources you have. Resources are always finite and they need to be prioritized. So I think that, yes, the access to that kind of health data is useful. In general, it's useful because what's emerging is the intent to build health learning systems, not health systems, but health learning systems, where you constantly take the output and the impact of your interventions through therapeutics as your diagnosis and feed it back into the system so you continually refine it, making it better and reducing costs. So right now we're facing this instance that's particularly intense, but that data should always be analyzed and set back into a system to improve it.

MG: But there are real concerns around privacy and that in many ways seems to halt whether that moves forward or not.

RANDY GOEBEL: Concerns and privacy, I think, are real. You know, the old aphorism, the safest place for a boat is the harbor, but that's about its intended purpose. The same thing is true of health data is, is if we don't exploit it, then we don't get value of it. And our health systems are always showing signs of unsustainability. We have an obligation. When you talk about security, I think we have an obligation in our social democracy to exploit it, not to consider it private. The owner is the individual, but say we participate in a society which has a structure that gives us a lot of health care benefits. We should be contributing back to doing that. On the security side, security has never been better.

MG: I don't know whether that will assure people or not, but we'll leave it there. It's good to speak with you about this. Thank you.

RANDY GOEBEL: Okay. Thanks for your work on this, Matt.

MG: Randy Goebel is a professor of computing science at the University of Alberta, one of the founders of the Alberta Machine Intelligence Institute.

SOUNDCLIP

Trace Together uses Bluetooth signals to determine when your phone is near another phone that also has the app installed. Both phones exchange anonymized ideas which are then stored in encrypted form only on your phone. If a user gets infected with COVID-19, he or she will be asked to give contact traces, access to the Trace Together data and list of a automized I.D.s that your phone has.

MG: It's a public service video from the Government Technology Agency of Singapore promoting an app called Trace Together meant to track patterns of infection. As you heard, the data is passed on to people known as contact tracers. Contact tracing is a vital part of the response to the coronavirus in Canada too, although the methods aren't quite the same. Dr. David Strong is a medical health officer with Alberta Health Services. He's currently working in that province's emergency coordination center. Doctor, good morning to you.

DR. DAVID STRONG: Good morning.

MG: Why do public health officials trace recent contacts of people who have tested positive for the coronavirus? It seems like an obvious question, but I think it's really important.

DR. DAVID STRONG: Sure, it actually is very important. So we're still really trying to do containment, which means that we are trying to break chains of transmission of COVID-19. So the goal with contact tracing is multiple calls, if you will. But when we have a case, we've got to identify positive COVID-19 case. We do the case interview, try to determine where they might have been, where they got the infection and also who they exposed at the point in time when they were infectious, so that we can contact those individuals and identify whether or not they are sick themselves, in which case we get them to isolate. And those that aren't sick, we still want to isolate. We test the ones that are sick. We don't test one aren't sick. And by doing so, by getting them into isolation as soon as possible, reduce the number of people that they expose. Break the chains of transmission. And again, our goal here is to really flatten the curve, slow the spread of the outbreak so that our health care system can continue to cope.

MG: How do you figure out who someone's recent contacts are?

DR. DAVID STRONG: So soon as the lab result comes out of the lab, it goes right to the medical health officer. They then made a team of people working with the [unintelligible] in each of our areas who will, they immediately contact the case, get the information from them, get the phone numbers from the individuals that they've identified as contacts. And then we call them. We have a team of people that are actually calling on those contacts and getting the information and giving those instructions.

MG: You rely on people's memories, though, in terms of them saying, this is who I met and this is where I went.

DR. DAVID STRONG: There is obviously, it is their recollection that I think there's so much information out there now, so much media around COVID-19. People are aware that the onset of an illness could be COVID-19. And they're frequently getting tested shortly after symptoms start. So we're not looking that far back. And they have, most often they've been isolated any ways. So we're finding that, especially as we go further into this outbreak, that the number of contacts is this small, smaller, not large groups. People are tending not to go into anything. We have these social distancing measures in place. So not as many opportunities for people to be in large groups anyway. So we're thinking we're getting a good list of contacts for the cases that were identified.

MG: Do you think there is potential in using, as we were talking earlier with Randy Geobel, the cell phone data, location data to trace contacts?

DR. DAVID STRONG: Well, it sounds like what I was hearing was it wasn't so much about necessarily tracing them. It was maintaining that ensuring that they're isolating themselves. And I think and possibly we haven't been looking that at all. I think the issue of public trust is really important. We rely on these cases to tell us the names of their contacts. I think perhaps if you're starting to do electronic surveillance of people, you might have cases that aren't willing to give the names of their contacts. And I think this idea of when you make a personal connection, you phone somebody up and we're actually trying to maintain, as long as we can anyway, daily active surveillance. So we keep calling people just to make sure that they're staying in isolation. Just checking up on your status. I think that personal contact can be quite important in trying to reassurance, but reinforcing the importance of the isolation. And I think that can be very effective.

MG: The trust is really important. But also just having that accurate data is something else. To your point, people might fear that they would, you know, compromised themselves in some way if they do disclose the contact. They don't want to be voluntarily giving that information up. And if we're truly trying to flatten this curve and stop the spread of this, I just wonder, this is what people are suggesting, that you might have to go that extra step.

DR. DAVID STRONG: Well, we might. We're not looking at that, as he said, and we're busy enough just trying to chew it, trying to do- you know, again, as we move into this, this is going to be a long outbreak. I think we have opportunity to look at innovations along the way. Right now, we think this is a very effective way of trying to do contact tracing. And we're just at this point trying to be able to scale it up as our case counts go up, expand our workforce to be able to do the contact tracing.

MG: Are we learning things from places like Singapore and Taiwan and South Korea that are using a lot of data to help stop that curve, flatten the curve?

DR. DAVID STRONG: I'm sure as we look back or find there's strategies that have been used elsewhere that would be very effective that we could we could choose for maybe future events, whether we can bring them into this situation, I'm not sure. Obviously, there's people looking at that within the Canadian context. And if there's something to identify that we can implement that would be very useful, we would be interested in doing that.

MG: Dr. Strong, thank you.

DR. DAVID STRONG: Thank you very much.

MG: Dr. David Strong is a medical health officer with Alberta Health Services, currently working in the province's emergency coordination center. Your thoughts on this would be welcome. Curious to hear what you think of your location data being used perhaps to help combat the coronavirus pandemic. You can reach us through the Web site cbc.ca/thecurrent or tweet us @TheCurrentCBC.

[Music]

MG: It's The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. Tom Powers brought his loot into the studio here to perform for us. Was that a loot?

TOM POWER: I have a number of songs I wish to perform for you today. They are the songs of my people from Newfoundland .

MG: How are you?

TP: You know what? Overjoyed. Can I say overjoyed? Overjoyed for a couple of reasons.

MG: Okay.

TP: Thank you for asking. Question 1. I am overjoyed because if my location data would say couch, fridge, CBC, that's all it would say.

MG: We'd learn a lot.

TP: Couch- And you know what? That's only. That's pretty much what it says the rest of the year anyway. So it's not that different. I'm also overjoyed because man, I can't begin to tell you. I mean now that even though cause not on them in the morning at the moment and we're on it and run in the evening and all that, it's just such a joy that there's still artists creating right now. It shows me that without, you know, with the lack of commerce, with a lack of audiences, these things are all incredibly important to sustain artists in our country right now. Can't wait for them to get them back on their feet. But I just love seeing pure, unbridled creativity at a time like this.

MG: I watched Sarah Harmer perform last night from her kitchen. I sat on my laptop and watched that. It was a lovely.

TP: Wasn't it beautiful? I saw people, you know, projecting it in their living rooms, you know, haven't like socially distancing parties and to backyards where they were watching it together. It was just so beautiful. So thanks to Sarah for that. It's been interesting to see comedy and how this would say to that.

MG: People could use a laugh right about now, perhaps.

TP: Yes. But, you know, what do you need for it? What do you need for a standup comedy set, Matt? You need a brick backdrop. You need an oversized purple blazer. And you also need an audience.

MG: An audience.

TP: What do you do when your audience is not really able to give you any laughs back? So I've been talking to James Mullingar. He's actually been spending his isolation in his adopted home of Rosene, New Brunswick. So he's done this pretty amazing thing. He's made his latest standup special, Almost Canadian, free for everybody. So I got to let you know. But one thing, we taped this conversation a couple of days ago. This was before the news about UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson came out. So he does talk about Boris at one point, but he was taped long before that. But my favorite part of this interview is James, yes sure, he's talking about a special, but he's also talking about how this one joke he has about New Brunswick is super relevant. I know people in New Brunswick are listening right now. This is for you.

SOUNDCLIP

TP: How area.

JAMES MULLINGER: I'm coping as best as one can.

TP: How are things in New Brunswick?

JAMES MULLINGER: Good question. I mean, the wonderful thing about living in New Brunswick is, of course, we were already pretty self isolated. The great thing about living that it's quite a you know, so I mean, we are obviously doing all of the right things. We're doing everything that our premier has recommended with best social distancing. But, you know, we had a snowfall yesterday, which I must admit, when I first saw it, I thought, oh, no, a snow day. And I thought, oh, no, that's right. Everyday's now a snow day. I spent the hours of the day sliding down the hill in front of the house. I'm able to kind of walk in the woods and cook, you know, a hot dogs on a bonfire and walk down the beach because we're already fairly isolated. And of course, if there's people walking, everyone's taking this very wide berth. But then I'm seeing pictures from some friends in England of life on the tube trains. And of course, there's still packed. I mean, I just have a joke that the best thing about living in New Brunswick is that you can go months, if not years, without making physical contact with another human being. When choosing to make physical contact with them, that's kind of actually turned out to be incredible positive right now.

TP: You're latest stand up special called Almost Canadian is streaming on Amazon Prime. But you also put it on YouTube a week ago. Tell me about that decision.

JAMES MULLINGER: Yes. I mean, it basically came about, I mean, I you know, as all of us as artists - and everyone is isof course, suffering. It's quite an interesting time in the fact that it really does affect everyone. You know, there's been obviously periods in time when comedians are suffering with one hardship or one country or one region, and suddenly you're in this position where everyone is. But obviously, comedians job in particular is to make people laugh at times like this. And after I had kind of lots of big shows canceled or postponed, I kept sent messages from people saying, would I do a kind of Pay-Per-View show for my living room on these kind of quarantine gigs? And I just thought, well, given everyone's kind of everyone's suffering financially, it felt wrong to try and profit from it. And I also kind of couldn't quite bear to record a special. I mean, standup is the one art form more than any other that needs an audience. And the only audience I've got here, three people, wife and two kids who do not actually like my comedy. Not the standup specials of the three people that don't like what you do. So I thought to myself, well, you know, what do I have? What can I put out there? And of course, I mean, this you know, I decided to put this full, unedited, uncut show. Obviously, I spent years creating and obviously the show has kind of huge value and meaning to me personally and financially. And, you know, I spent years kind of honing that material. I invested a lot of money in having it professional films. But it just feels like when there's times when everyone is doing what they can and ultimately, I mean, looking around and seeing that's the poll way that this crisis is being handled in England and the amazing way that it's being handled in Canada. And it's so true, for want of a better phrase, it felt like the Canadian thing to do.

TP: Well, let's talk a little bit about that. Take a listen to this. This is from your special.

SOUNDCLIP

JAMES MULLINGER: It's even worse in the rural areas. I was trying to find a gig in Sussex about six months ago. I got lost. I ask them for directions. And I swear to God, word for word, he says to me, go to the end of this road and turn left at the tree where Donny crashed his bike in 78.

[Laughter]

TP: That is James Mullingar talking about the challenges of making it in the bustling metropolis of Sussex, New Brunswick. But let's talk about what you were saying, saying. You're saying you're looking back home in England right now, you're seeing the situation there. You're in New Brunswick, kind of far away from everybody right now, roasting hotdogs, getting some space with your family. And it makes me think about the title of your special: Almost Canadian. And I'm resisting the urge to be somewhat jingoistic here. But is there something about this time that makes you feel maybe a little bit more Canadian?

JAMES MULLINGER: Absolutely. I mean, I've never felt prouder to be here. And it's fascinating because I mean, one thing two things about Canada is we're very much aware of what's happening everywhere else in the world because we read up on world news, whereas in a place like England, everyone's very closed in and just aware of what's happening there. So on that kind of awful side, so it seems, we kind of realized how this crisis was going to be. And that was the day where I had to cancel dozens of shows and lost tons of corporate gigs. And just when I saw my whole world was ending. The British called minister was we're still saying to people, you know, it's business as usual, keeps shaking hands, keep hugging. And of course, that does not end well. It's obviously cost lives. But I mean, obviously, this morning we discovered that Prince Charles is gone. Which was the real moment. Okay, now we are actually in an episode of [unintelligible] is naturally writing the scripts of the universe right now. But yet it happens to be in this country. Well, that's you know, I mean, it was famously the most tolerant and peaceful places in the world. You know, and that's really what this show was always about was my love for the country. And the country is showing its true colors now.

TP: Just briefly before we go, we had a couple of seconds left, but are you able to get a laugh? Are you able to find some joy in any of this?

JAMES MULLINGER: Yes. I mean, it has definitely given me about 15 minutes new material, which is which is always a good thing. And I mean, I run it in the show that I was actually supposed to be touring right now, which I will pick up in fall. It's actually called Embrace Where You Live. And it's about embracing where you live, because now no one has any choice but to embrace where they live. So it's kind of taken on this whole new meaning. And, you know, I mean, obviously, it's that thing where, like most people try to make the most of being with my family. I really can't wait to get back on the road and make people laugh again. Until then, I hope that the standup special will work will make do.

TP: I hope so, too. I think it might. James, thank you so much for making the time.

JAMES MULLINGER: Thank you so much, Tom.

MG: That's queue host Tom Power speaking with the British comedian James Mellinger. Subsequent to that conversation, Boris Johnson, the U.K. prime minister, has tested positive for the coronavirus. Developing news. You will be back a little bit later on in the program, Tom, with something else.

TP: I have a conversation coming for you with a Canadian icon, especially in the music world. Michael Bublé, who has made it a personal mission of his given his own family's history and their Canadian medical system to get Canadians to stay inside. And we're going to talk about that.

MG: He's been very successful in doing this. We look forward to that. Tom, thank you.

TP: Thank you, Matt, [unintelligible] my lute.

MG: I look forward to it. Tom Power host of Q Back a little bit later on with us. The CBC News is next. And then coming up in about six minutes time: two weeks ago, the prime minister urged Canadians abroad to return home. Not all of them have made it back. I'll speak with two Canadians who are stranded around the world and looking to Ottawa for help to get them home. What can Ottawa do? What will Ottawa do? And if they can't get home, is there anything the Canadian government can do to support them while they're abroad? More on that to come. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

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Stranded Canadians

Guests: Jessica Acs, Priyadarshi Bhattacharya, Rob Oliphant

MG: Good morning, I Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Still to come, it was the region hit hardest by COVIE-19. Now China is easing its restrictions on Hubei Province and the rest of the world is watching closely. We'll head to China coming up in 30 minutes. But first, the lucky ones found flights. Thousands more Canadians are still abroad and they're looking for a way home.

[Music: Theme]

MG: If you are abroad, come home now. That was the message from the Prime Minister, and many millions of Canadians heeded those words, but there are thousands Canadians who are still stuck around the world, trying to figure out how they'll get back to Canada, just like Jessica Acs headed to Ecuador for a yoga retreat early this month. She emerged from that retreat in mid-March to find the world a very different place. Jessica, good morning.

JESSICA ACS: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What was that like when you leave the yoga retreat, presumably in a pretty restful and relaxed state? And what did you emerge to?

JESSICA ACS: Well, we came up on the day when the news hit that everybody was making decisions about the border and the and the airport. So the atmosphere had changed a great deal in the last two weeks. And all of us had to make some pretty big decisions quickly.

MG: You had planned to come home. Tell me about where you are in the country right now.

JESSICA ACS: So I'm in a pretty remote area of Ecuador, Ecuador is not a very big country. But there's a lot of places that you can only get to by regional flights. So you come into the international airport and then you can take a one or two hour flight into another part of the country. I'm down in the south, near the border of Peru in a town called Vilcabamba, which is in the mountains, in the Andes. And it's presently, with the regional airports closed without a twelve hour drive away from where the repatriate flights are coming into [unintelligible].

MG: And so what's the situation in Ecuador? You mentioned the regional airports are closed. What else is going on there?

JESSICA ACS: Be they managed to close the country very quickly, which, you know, was a big surprise for anybody who's coming from a country like the U.S. or Canada, where it's taking a lot longer. They closed the international borders within about five days of the announcement and then from there it got even tighter and tighter. So they started with the airport and then they closed off public transportation, which is the buses and the taxis, and then it got even tighter. So every small town and even the major cities are subject to a very tight curfew right now. So that started as a 12 hour curfew, the daylight hours and now it's been tightened from 9:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. And you're allowed to be in town for necessities, if your government I.D. matches up with a certain day of the week. So I don't know if that's being enforced. I haven't had to go into the village for anything just yet. But they do have some pretty strict rules here.

MG: What are you hearing about what Ecuador is going to do next? The rules. I mean, around the world seem to be changing day by day. What's on the horizon?

JESSICA ACS: Yes, that's the main concern. So trying to figure out a flight out of here is one thing and then the actual domestic transportation is another. But I think even if that takes a week or two, you know, that's something we can work with. But from what I've heard, they're reassessing the numbers of cases in about 10 days from now. And if the cases continue to go up, the restrictions will become even tighter. I think that, from what I've heard and this isn't fully confirmed, that could mean that we're all quarantined to our properties without even any, I guess, an allowance to go into the villages for necessities for 30 days. I heard 30 days up to up to those three months. But I don't know exactly what that will be.

MG: How are you doing in the midst of all of this?

JESSICA ACS: I think you, feel everybody here is kind of going through these cycles of emotion. It's really hard to be in an uncertain place where you don't have access to regular resources and their support system. And then on the other hand, there have been no cases reported here, which is a blessing. The environment is beautiful. We have, you know, we have fresh food and everything that we can ask for us. So we're okay and we're safe. But you know, this trying to figure out how we take a very dangerous, potentially dangerous trip, back to the airport and when that will be can leave you with a bit of anxiety.

MG: And are there flights? I mean, is there a way to get on a plane to get back to Canada?

JESSICA ACS: There's, repatriate flights started to come up, they started on Wednesday and that flight sold out in about half an hour and that [unintelligible] by the Canadian government. There's another one that's flying out today that also sold out. They seem to be coming up every two days. And speaking to the embassy, what I understand is, they'll runs until the demand slows down. So there is a potential to get a ticket in a flight. It's the actual getting to the airport from where you are that's proving to be difficult.

MG: And that would be, you said it would be, a potentially dangerous trip to the airport.

JESSICA ACS: Well, yes. Some people have made it through. From what I can tell from Facebook groups and they've had very little obstacles and other people are finding blockages like rubber trees or dirt has been put on the roads you can't block, or what they call hot spots where the military or the police are, you know, enforcing checks like for temperature. And then they spray down cars with like a chlorine mixture. And then some people have been turned around. You know, you need a very specific collection of documents for both yourself and the driver to get through these hotspots. So, you know, Ecuador is it's a country of provinces and the rules are changing quickly. And from what I can tell, the interpretations of the rules as they change, you know, you don't know how they're being interpreted from place to place. You know, it's true.

MG: While you're stuck there, you have a business here in Canada, in Wellington, Ontario. What's the story with that? I mean, as you're, you know, thousands of kilometers away.

JESSICA ACS: Yes, it's closed. I'm not the only one. Wellington in Prince Edward County is a small village of over a dozen micro businesses that are owner operated. So, we all fall into that category. Businesses that are non-essential and have had to close. And the future, as you know, what we're all facing is uncertain.

MG: You went at the beginning of March. The virus was starting to spread at that point. Did you have any thoughts of perhaps canceling the trip? Whether, you know, this was - I'm not saying that it's your fault that you're stuck there - but whether this was the right decision that time?

JESSICA ACS: Yes. I did consider that, of course. Again, the tone of the Canadian and the U.S. government hadn't it hadn't become as serious as it had in those two weeks. That's when it really amplified. And I have had a couple of other trips in North America and I've seen how it was working at the level of the airport. And it still seems fairly relaxed. And there was almost this sense that, you know, it hadn't hit the side of the world the way that it had in China. And even in Europe, it hadn't quite amplified. It happened really, really quickly. So it was a consideration, but I thought that I would make it back within two and a half weeks and it would potentially be business as usual.

MG: I hope you home soon. Good luck.

JESSICA ACS: Yes, thank you, Matt.

MG: Jessica Acs is an Ontario resident stranded alone in Vilcabamba in Ecuador.

SOUNDCLIP

We're doing everything we can to help people. But it's true, it's becoming increasingly difficult to bring people home. And yes, there'll be a time in the future, we will need to shift at some time in the future as to how we can best support people who would have to stay where they are for the period that these quarantine are in place.

MG: That's the foreign affairs minister, Francois Philippe Champagne, admitting that help may not be coming for some Canadians who are stranded abroad. As you know, around the world, borders are closing, flights are being grounded. Priyadarshi Bhattacharya left Toronto for India. Earlier this month. Now India is in the midst of a three week lockdown. It's left at least 15,000 Canadians stranded there. Priyadarshi joins me now from Kolkata production. Hello to you.

PRIYADARSHI BHATTACHARYA: Good morning, Matt. I'm doing well as well as given the circumstances.

MG: Why did you go to India?

PRIYADARSHI BHATTACHARYA: My father was critically ill about the middle of this, and then he has unfortunately [unintelligible] last week.

MG: I'm sorry.

PRIYADARSHI BHATTACHARYA: So I'm out to basically see him and then try and look after him if possible.

MG: There was a notice that the Canadian government put out on the 13th of March advising people against any non-essential travel outside of the country. Why did you decide, I mean, obviously your father and he was ill. What was the thought that was going through your mind about how you could balance those warnings with the need to go and see family?

PRIYADARSHI BHATTACHARYA: So essentially, my father was ill on and off for the last one month, but I held off from visiting him precisely because I was aware that this is not the time to really go so far off from home. But when he's became critically ill, I really felt that I really felt I didn't really have an option. And as the prime minister advised against all non essential of travel, this was I mean, this was something, seeing my parent was something that I really felt was essential.

MG: The other element that might complicate things is back home, your wife is here in Canada and she's pregnant.

PRIYADARSHI BHATTACHARYA: That is correct. And she's. She's by herself in Toronto. And basically that's one of the reasons I want to get back.

MG: Yes, I was going to say you want to get home as quickly as possible, what are the restrictions that are in place in India right now to try and get you out?

PRIYADARSHI BHATTACHARYA: So India in the middle of the country wide it locked down. And this is a lockdown of 1.3 billion people. At the height of the Wuhan quarantine in China was, what, 60 to 80 million. So at this point, just lock down that has been attempted during this crisis. All domestic flights, all International flights, all public transport, whether it's intercity or suburban transport systems. Everything has been stopped. [Cutting] on the 14th of April?

MG: Can you leave your house right now? What are the restrictions beyond flights? Are you able to actually go out for a walk or anything like that?

PRIYADARSHI BHATTACHARYA: The only time we really can really step out is when we go get groceries. And that's yes, that's pretty much the only time we're out. We've been advised to stay in and the police are on the roads enforcing that order.

MG: The line is a bit shaky. So I'm hoping we don't lose you. But I do on ask you just a couple more questions. One is what sort of help are you looking for from the government to come home?

PRIYADARSHI BHATTACHARYA: So there are a lot of nations which have negotiated [unintelligible] of fights with the government of India. [cutting] Even Israel. They are like evacuating those nationals. So it becomes [cutting] on the Canadian government to open up airspace [cutting] to get back to Canada. [Cutting] try and run some charter flights. So if we can get those or some of those going in there. [Cutting] I'm in eastern India. If those flights are gone out of the national capital, Delhi, then that makes it a little harder for us to get there in the absence of any kind of transportation. [Cutting]. That makes it a lot more Canadians should really be able to get on those flights and get back home.

MG: Priyadarshi. I apologize because the line is really breaking up. Just the other thing I think that's important is you're a permanent resident. Are you worried that Canada may not help you because of that status?

PRIYADARSHI BHATTACHARYA: I'm basically hoping that they would treat people who were living and working in Canada at the same level, and I hope [cutting] from China, those [cutting] residents were included. So hopeful [cutting] that global affairs make.

MG: I'm sorry for what you've been through and the loss of your father. And again, this is a bit had been a bit of a shaky line that your story is an important one. I wish you the best of luck. And thank you.

PRIYADARSHI BHATTACHARYA: Thank you, Matt. I', keeping my fingers crossed and hoping for the best.

MG: We'll cross our fingers as well. Priyadarshi Bhattacharya lives in Toronto. We reached him in Calcutta, India. He is stuck there as the Indian government has imposed a lockdown for three weeks on the citizens of that nation. What's the Canadian government doing for the stranded Canadians? What is it that they can do to help bring them home? And if they can't get home, can it supports them while they are abroad? Rob Oliphant is the parliamentary secretary for the minister of foreign affairs. Rob Oliphant, good morning to you.

ROB OLIPHANT: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Let's start with the people you just heard from, one stuck in Ecuador, the other in India. What can the government do to bring them home?

ROB OLIPHANT: Well, two different situations that are both difficult but different from each other. In South America we have thousands of Canadians. We've been facilitating flights from Peru, from Ecuador. We've already done Guatemala, Honduras. We had about eleven flights completed. We know we have more to do in different situations, say Peru, Ecuador, different countries in Central America, Honduras, Guatemala, all of these situations. Everyone is different. So our missions are working with each of them. The Indian movement, which is a different situation because we've not been able to get facilitated flights working in India. We're still trying, but it continues to be a challenge. We have about 430,000 Canadians right now registered with our emergency response center, with Canadians abroad. We know there are more. I think when the crisis started, we had about three million Canadians abroad, some of them living and staying and working where they are. But that's about a million came home after the prime minister, put out really an urgent request for people to come home. Right. We still have hundreds of thousands away. And believe me, I have never seen a bureaucracy retool itself so quickly as global affairs has done. All those policy analysts and writers and researchers are now consular affairs specialists.

ROB OLIPHANT: Should Priyadarshi be worried that permanent residents perhaps might be treated differently than citizens?

ROB OLIPHANT: Well, they are treated differently. We will acknowledge that the we follow various conventions of the world, that consular affairs are restricted to our citizens, and that's because every country is expects us to respect their citizenship. However, so that means that permanent residents aren't able to register with claims abroad. It doesn't mean we're not helping them. In fact, our embassies' high commissions around the world are helping poor residents. They are able to get on flights. Our border is open to them and we are doing the best we can and making sure we follow legal conventions. The problems in India are a little different, though, than just the fact that he's a permanent resident. Prime Minister Modi closed down the whole country and we are attempting still to work with Air Canada. We had hoped we had some flights established with them. They're now recognizing that the difficulties of flying in and out of India are very huge for them. And we are working with other airlines. We're working with our like minded countries to try to find ways that we can share flights if they can get them out. But it's very difficult.

MG: The reality is and we've heard this directly from the foreign affairs minister on this program, that many Canadians just won't be able to come home. And so what would you say, not just to those people, but to their families who are here waiting for them?

ROB OLIPHANT: So 90 percent of our effort is still working on Canadians abroad, trying to get home. That's where we are. We know the clock is ticking. We know that commercial options increasingly are shrinking all over the world. I've got a chart that I'm working on till the wee hours of every day trying to figure out how we get people home. I would say part of our minds are now shifting to making sure our consulates, our embassies or high commissions around the world are looking at how we help Canadians in place, as we always do.

MG: And what would that help look like if someone stuck, for example, in India and they end the country's lockdown? What is the help that the government could offer?

ROB OLIPHANT: Sure. In a normal year, we have about 6000 consular cases and those are people who lose their passports or need a particular help, or have a family issue. But 600 of those are difficult. They are people [unintelligible] severe illness and about 120 or complex, in jail or those things. So we're moving from 6000 councillar cases to hundreds of thousands. And are our embassies high commissions are restricted, some of them where they're working, many of them are working at home. They're on [unintelligible]. Staffs. They're all working. We're doing it from Ottawa as well. But it may be as simple as someone, even you get a prescription filled. Helping them find their way now- It's a little different in some countries where we have real tourists in an adventure spot like Ecuador or Peru, where they may not speak the language, where they don't know the customs. And we're having, you know, to really help them as we are. In India, it's a little different most of our Indian visitors, and we have 25,000 right now registered, we know there are more, they tend to know the culture, the language and the systems. That's going to be a little bit easier in a country like that to help them because they know the system. But in other countries, we have people in Nepal. We have people in Malaysia. I've got emails from [unintelligible]. We're dealing with about 5000 cases a day trying to trying to do this. So we're...

MG: There's a lot.

ROB OLIPHANT: It is. And I need to tell you, the public servants of Canada, I mean, my world is quite narrow and not dealing with all the Canadian problems, but Global Affairs Canada, a brilliant deputy minister, a brilliant minister, we have moved- the whole all place is retooled.

MG: Can I just ask you just finally, in the remaining couple of minutes that we have about the work that's happening here, you talked about a million Canadians coming back after the prime minister said come home. Many of them came back last weekend. In the days after that, the government enacted the quarantine act. Why didn't that happen earlier before the Canadians who were coming back perhaps you could have infected other people here?

ROB OLIPHANT: I think we are. I think it's not my area, but we were following the best medical advice. We are also trusting Canadians to follow the advice and the request that they self isolate?

MG: Well, we've heard stories that people aren't we've heard of, and CBC has been reporting on Canadians who've had to hide their symptoms so they could get across the border.

ROB OLIPHANT: And I've been horrified by those. I've been horrified by those symptoms. I mean, everyone, the two things they need to do is take care of themselves, but take care of each other. And absolutely, we give the benefit of the doubt to Canadians. At the same time watching the illness progressed, the minister of health is watching it very closely. And when we recognized that people were not self isolating as they should. We've invoked that.

MG: But would it not have been better to invoke it earlier, knowing the call was out for people to come back, knowing that March break was about to end, that millions of Canadians who want to fly or drive back and snowbirds coming in across the border, would that not have helped deal with the issue before it became an issue?

MG: I think the first thing it would have helped if they'd heeded the prime minister's advice and stayed home. That was our big request two weeks ago that we made. And some people, many people did not heed that advice. We are still helping them. We're doing our very best to help them. We absolutely have given advice in every possible public means about what's safe self-isolation means and what social distancing means. We're now moved to the point where we need quarantine and we're not in a lockdown. We have many countries with martial law. We have countries that have a complete lockdown. We're at the stage where we have a quarantine act. I think it's effective. We're following public health officials. We are attempting to do that. We now have very strict rules. People returning home will, if they're asymptomatic, they're expected, and will be required to self self isolate. They will be quarantined. There are very strict fines for them if they break that quarantine.

MG: And you're confident the Canadians will now follow those directives?

ROB OLIPHANT: I think Canadians are waking up. I mean, it's when this illness started, I started tracking this at the end of December, and we had flags raised all over. We had travel advisories that began being booked early in January. And we kept raising the level of those travel advisories. I don't think Canadians have understood about travel advisories. I myself haven't registered before when I travel. That's just the nature. I travel. And I will now always register when I travel. And I hope Canadians get that our registrations have gone up hugely to the way we communicate with people. I know my mindset has changed. Canadians are waking up to this. And right now, our job is to get as many of them home as possible and then to support the ones who can't get home. And that's going to be a gargantuan task over the next several months.

MG: Rob Oliphant, good to speak with you. I appreciate it. Thank you.

ROB OLIPHANT: Great. Thank you.

MG: Rob Oliphant is the parliamentary secretary for the minister of foreign affairs.

MG: Coming up in about 90 seconds time. These are unsettling times. Scary times for some people are increasingly turning to poetry for comfort and reassurance. You'll hear from a poet and professor at Toronto's Humber College about why poetry feels particularly soothing for some readers right now. Stay with us. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio.

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China easing, Meaghan Strimas

Guests: Shawn Yuan, Nathan VanderKlippe, Meaghan Strimas

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Much of Canada seems poised to adopt even stronger COVID-19 prevention measures in the days ahead. In parts of China, though, restrictions are starting to lift as officials declare victory in containing this virus. Lockdown is tentatively set to be lifted on the 8th of April in Wuhan, which is the source of the original outbreak. Mark Henshaw is a Canadian teacher living and working in Wuhan. Mark. Hello.

MARK HENSHAW: Hello, Matt. How are you?

MG: Well, I'm okay. How are you doing today?

MARK HENSHAW: I'm very well, thank you.

MG: What is life like in Wuhan? Describe the last couple of months for you there.

MARK HENSHAW: The last couple of months have been solitary. I've been finding a lot of different opportunities to learn new things, to do new things in spite of the quarantine.

MG: That does not sound particularly enjoyable.

MARK HENSHAW: I've made the best of it. You know, like when a virus hits your city, that's completely unknown to the world. At first, it's a little frightening. However, the more we learned about it and the more China took measures and controls, the more I knew I was safe. The more confidence I had in the decisions. And then I was like, okay, might as well fill my time with some things to do.

MG: So what have you been doing?

MARK HENSHAW: So I've been actually I've just been learning Mandarin. I've been teaching creating videos for my students. That takes some of my time and building up some more curriculum for when we return to school. I've been doing indoor workouts, cooking dumplings, learning new Chinese recipes. And fortunately, I'm living with my girlfriend who is Chinese. So she's provided great company during these last few months.

MG: How long have you been locked out? How many days have you been in lockdown?

MARK HENSHAW: It's about 64 days about.

MG: Like, are you kind of marking it on the wall like you're in prison or something like that?

MARK HENSHAW: Funny you say that. No, I'm not marking it on the wall, I think. I think because in the beginning, we had no idea how long it was going to be. I didn't want to start tracking it because it would get too obsessed with the numbers. I'll just kind of taken it as a day at a time mindset.

MG: Are you able to go outside in this lockdown or are you just stuck in in apartment that you're in?

MARK HENSHAW: I'm up to this point, over 90 percent of the time we have not been able to go outside. But like, if we need to throw out garbage, we can go outside. If we need to pick up food. We can go outside. But when it comes to like going beyond that, no, it's not permitted.

MG: And if you were to do that, what would have happened?

MARK HENSHAW: I would have gone to the security AI, who controls the gate. And because I keep in mind, in China, most people living in apartments. So these are apartment communities. So something that I need to just add really quickly here is that the control that China has been able to put on isolating people has been much easier, because unlike Canada, we live in in apartments in China. Whereas if this was to happen in Canada, a lot more difficult. So I live in an apartment community. As I walk out to the gate, the security guard would say, hi, would you need. And if I said, oh, I want to go for a walk, they would have said, no. Like, you need to stay inside because they can only leave, people and leave for medical reasons or some kind of emergency.

MG: We heard from a number of Canadians when the outbreak started who wanted to come home and they ended up coming home. You decided to stay in Wuhan. Why did you do that?

MARK HENSHAW: Yes, actually, I wrote about a 250 word argument as to why I why I decided to stay home. I think timing was a big factor. So first of all, I'm an I'm an X student, an X grad student. I was in school for nine years. So I have a debt to pay back, which is a big reason why I stayed, because I knew that by staying it would increase my chances of keeping my job. But that wasn't the primary reason. The primary reason was health. So once the crisis struck, time passed and then the World Health Organization declared a state of international emergency. Once WHO made that declaration, I felt more confident because I thought, well, one, here it is. The virus is right here. So all the attention from the government is going to come here. Two, the World Health Organization is now sounding off as an emergency, which means it's going to be international relief. So when I thought about it, like not knowing how much of the virus could spread, I thought, well, you know what? This is probably the safest place to be right now because all the attention will go towards the virus in this place. So medically, I didn't see it necessary to leave. And then financially, it would be better if I stayed. And then the added bonus was I could continue being with my girlfriend.

MG: So after 60 plus days of being locked in your apartment, do you think that was the right decision?

MARK HENSHAW: Yes, I mean, especially as time has passed, because I mean, unfortunately, as you're experiencing in Canada, like I was just actually watching my friend. He's in Toronto and he was doing a Facebook live because he's a performer. He works for CBC as well. Actually, he was doing a Facebook like just playing some music. And watching Canada now is what happened to China over the last few months. So except I have to say, Canada has been doing a remarkable job from my perspective in responding and taking measures, from the prime minister all the way down to people social distancing and staying at home.

MG: I mentioned in the introduction Chinese officials say they're going to lift the lockdown in just under two weeks time. What do you think of that? Is that too soon, given everything that you've been through, or are you comfortable with that decision?

MARK HENSHAW: I'm honestly it's kind of a gray. My response would be a bit gray, because I know that viruses, whether it's either vaccination or immunity between those two things, you have a good chance of getting it. So we don't have a vaccine. China has done, I think, everything it can to build a hospital in 10 days and quarantine its people. But I think it's gotten to the point where China has just kind of bitten the bullet. And in my personal opinion is that they're kind of going for a herd immunity kind of motion now because they've quarantine. They've done everything they could. They got international relief. And then they said, okay. The cases keep dropping. I think it's time to release people back. So I think there will be a relapse. There will be an increased amount of cases over time. That's my prediction. But I think the worst of it is over unless people are reckless with their everyday decisions.

MG: When the lockdown is lifted, on the 8th of April and you are able to tell the guard at your gate that you are going out for a walk. Aside from that, what's the first thing you're going to do when you have that freedom?

MARK HENSHAW: Well, I'm going to get my motorized Scooter and I want to take a drive out to Beautiful Lake. It's not far from where I live. And they just want to go for a walk. That's the basic thing right there.

MG: I wish you luck and health, and I appreciate you talking to us, Mark. Thank you.

MARK HENSHAW: Thank you, Matt. Have yourself a great day.

MG: And you, be well. Mark Hanshaw is a Canadian teacher. He's living in Wuhan, China. Could be a little while until life is fully back to normal for Mark. But in some of China's biggest cities, cities like Beijing and Chengdu, the streets are already starting to fill up again. And that has some people feeling like they might be safer in China than here in Canada. Bella Zhang is a student at Douglas College in New Westminster, British Columbia, and she's planning to fly home to Shenyang next week.

SOUNDCLIP

Things right now like there's no like a big number go up in China. Everybody like wearing mask. So, I feel a little bit safer there. Lots of my classmate go back and posting their daily lives there. It doesn't sound that bad.

MG: She seems convinced, but China may not be out of the woods just yet. Nathan VanderKlippe is a reporter for The Globe and Mail in Beijing. Shawn Yuan is a freelance reporter. He is in Chengdu. Hello to both of you.

SHAWN YUAN: Hello.

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: Hi, Matt.

MG: Nathan. What is it like in Beijing right now?

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: Since the past week has been quite remarkable. It felt like last weekend something changed very quickly before it was really, traffic had been growing a little bit, but all of a sudden, large numbers of people out on the streets. Some of the entertainment districts were quite busy. They're still a minority. Restaurants that are open, but those that were open had sort of much larger numbers of people in it than I had seen before. And then sort of come the work week, we saw sort of larger numbers of people back on the subway. You know, plenty of people back at work, still a minority. Street side, small businesses that are back open. But a tremendous number of signs of sort of a return to normalcy.

MG: Compare that to a couple of weeks ago. I mean, Beijing is one of the busiest, most bustling cities on the planet. What was it like a few weeks back?

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: Well, I mean, you will have seen the pictures circulating the last couple of days of empty plazas all over the world, in European capitals and elsewhere. And that's what Beijing was like. It sort of feels like watching the exact same scene in a different country play out with a month for six week lag. It was kind of spooky. I mean, with nobody on the streets and you could sort of count the return to some sort of normalcy like where you ended up in the queue at a red light. So for a while, I mean, you're almost guaranteed to be the first car at a red light and then, you know, perhaps you might be in the first three. And, you know, now, I mean, who knows? You might be number hundred.

MG: Shawn, what about in Chengdu? How are people feeling there?

SHAWN YUAN: I think the the speed of returning to normal in Chengdu is faster than Beijing. Last Friday, we received a text message from the city government saying that all the gyms, restaurants and theaters will be open. All of them. So this past weekend, the weather was fantastic. So people start to go out wearing summer shorts and t shirts. And people are lined up in front of hot pot restaurants, which is extremely important for a city that is super famous for its hot pot culture. Just over a month ago when you go out, so it was very surreal to see the teahouses and hot pot restaurants, all of them closed. I had been going out pretty much everything with over the past week. I would say probably half of the people are now wearing masks anymore. And a few are walking dogs and they go to gyms, they're going to restaurants. Generally, I think things go back to normal.

MG: So it's not even just the official line from the government. It's that people have embraced this and people are going back to living their normal lives.

SHAWN YUAN: Yes, absolutely. I just feel like it became super fast as well, because even just before last week, people were still, you know, wearing masks and staying home. And as soon as we received the message, it looks like the city just returned back to its life immediately.

MG: Nathan, the Chinese government lowered the boom on some of these cities just in terms of the isolation, the quarantine that was imposed and the measures that were taken to ensure that the virus didn't spread. Why is the government now saying that this is the appropriate time to relax those measures?

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: Well, they're drawing a distinction between what they're calling local cases of the virus, which are sort of cases that are spreading to the community, and what they're calling imported cases of the virus, which are cases that are coming in from people returning to China or arriving in China from overseas. And so they have seen a real diminishment of the official numbers in terms of how many of the local cases there are. So I think there's a sense that they have this in hand. And then in tandem with that in Beijing and Shanghai and other cities, they have put in place a very, very strict quarantine system. So in Beijing, at first, everyone in Beijing was meant to either go into a hotel for quarantine or if you met certain exceptions, you could quarantine at home. And then that was shifted several days ago to. Basically, all international flights were diverted to 12 airports outside Beijing in neighboring places as far as 1000 kilometers away, where people would get checked there, including tested to see if they tested positive or negative for the virus before they were allowed to come back into Beijing. And now within the next five hours or so, Beijing is China, in fact, is going to be closed off to foreigners, to all foreigners, even foreigners with resident permits here, with only very few exceptions, diplomats and others. But basically, China is shutting itself off.

MG: The government took a lot of heat for downplaying the scale of the initial outbreak in Wuhan before it imposed those quarantine measures. Should people believe the numbers now?

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: You know, this is such a hard question to answer. You know, there are there are genuine questions everywhere around the world about how trustworthy the numbers are. My sense is that directionally the numbers have proven accurate. Are there zero new cases on a day to day basis in China? I don't know. I mean, there are places that, you know, we've heard reports that are places that are not testing unless sort of, you know, they have to we've seen a couple new cases crop up in that in the past week, what they're calling sort of community spread cases. Not many. But I think there's a difference between saying, you know, well, they're saying there's zero and maybe there's 100 more. They're saying there's zero and maybe there's 10000. And at this point in time, I don't think we see a lot of indications that there are, you know, sort of large epidemic spreads that aren't being reported. It's obviously a risk. And if you speak with epidemiologists that, you know, viruses often, particularly in a situation like this where people don't have immunity, most people in China don't have immunity, haven't had any exposure to this virus. There's a distinct risk of a community spread. I think the belief is that the measures that they have in place are sufficient to really stop this thing. Between sort of quarantining people when they come back to China as well as in Beijing. You can't you can't go anywhere. You can't gas. You can't walk in the shopping mall. You can't entering outdoor shopping arcades without any temperature tested and registering and that sort of thing. They feel like all of those measures are enough to either, A, spot people who are sick or, B, trace back their contacts if they are later proven to be sick.

MG: And this is a real point of pride, Nathan, for the Chinese government, I mean, I spoke with the Chinese ambassador to Canada and he talked about how these steps that they had taken, which might seem draconian to people outside of China, but that they'd worked and he was very insistent that they work. This is something that the government is proud of, isn't it?

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: Yeah, tremendously so. Yes. And they're proud of it sort of both domestically. And I think there's a pride in terms of China's international posture as well. Sort of saying we've figured this out. We can sort of help others do the same thing. To be honest, I think there are questions because not every jurisdiction that has shown success against in terms of both defending against the virus and then in containing it has taken measures as severe or draconian as what China has taken. If you look, for example, to the South Korean example, if you look at some of the other jurisdictions, Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan. I mean, none of these places are out of the woods when it comes to the virus. And in fact, in some of them, you know, they're showing troubling rates in recent days. But also none of them have taken measures anywhere nearly as severe as what's been done in China. And what China has done, it seems that proven effective for now. But there's also a cost. And when you look at, for example, mental health costs, tens and tens of millions of people who have been sort of placed in effectively home imprisonment for quite a lengthy period of time. When you look things [unintelligible] domestic violent and that sort of thing. There is also cost of these things that that has not really been discussed in sort of in a broader narrative that is suggested [unintelligible].

MG: Shawn, what happens now with the company, with a country reopened? You have companies that are opening themselves up, but you also have institutions. Think of something like schools which have been shuttered for months and months now. How do those institutions try to deal with that, the class time that has been missed, for example?

SHAWN YUAN: Yes, absolutely. Just before that, I just want quick thing. One of the biggest concerns right now is the number of asymptomatic cases, because the National Health Commission does not include asymptomatic cases to their official tally from cases. So right now, that has caused some concern, at least among people I've been talking to, I know these because there has been evidence showing that asymptomatic cases do spread virus. And some studies do find those with mild symptoms have the highest possibility of infecting others. So no official added cases does not mean there's no infection in China that is still happening and the government just not releasing the statistics. So go back to the question you just asked as far as the academic institutions. So most of these schools right now opening are high schools and junior highs and excluding universities because university will have to require the entire country to be mobilized. So different. It will require people traveling from one province to another. And I don't think that's a risk the government is willing to take as of yet. But for high schools, I think the first people, first group, the people who are going by the school are senior students and especially those asking the students in high school who are going to take their college entrance examination in about three months, which is the most important exam in in China. And gradually they're going to open to other students in high school and junior high. And in terms of the way to make sure there's more [unintelligible] that I think they will still do the normal things. For example, making sure temperature is checked and they will try to disallow large gatherings with students and stuff like that. So I think the government doesn't know what it's doing. And the schools are definitely trying their best to make sure that the schools and the classroom can get resumed without the infection cases spike.

MG: Do you think, Shawn, that there are lessons that the rest of the world could learn from what China did with the coronavirus?

SHAWN YUAN: The narrative that the Chinese government has been pushing right now is that China bought enough time for the world to respond and the world botched this response. I don't know how accurate the narrative is, but at least for now, I think what we have been doing is that we have been exercising social distancing, if not absolute quarantine. So I think it's very important for people to continue staying home. And people might think that this might feel like the end of the world, especially right now, everything is shifted into Europe and now to the US as well. A lot of people feel like they don't know what we can do and everyone's going to end. But I just want to say that we have been through this. We have been under quarantine for two months. We're going to overcome this, with the added costs for sure, but I think we should stay hopeful.

MG: Nathan, just briefly, the same question to you. Is there something that the rest of the world could learn from what China has been through over the last couple of months?

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: It feels to me like the perhaps the chief lesson from China is the value of a genuine whole of government, aggressive response. And it may, in fact, be too late to learn that lesson in terms of really sort of preventing epidemic outbreaks. But I don't think it's too late to learn that lesson in terms of trying to limit the spread and that sort of thing. It feels to me like this notion that, you know, you can help to go away. It's because clearly proven to be untrue, and that the only way to really push back at this thing is to do it with sort of a complete government effort.

MG: It's good to speak with you both about this. Thank you.

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: Thank you for having me.

SHAWN YUAN: You're welcome. Nathan VanderKlippe is a reporter for The Globe and Mail. He's in Beijing. Shawn Yuan is a freelance reporter in Chengdu.

[Music]

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name's Matt Galloway. It's Friday. In case you forgot, because the days seem to bleed together, a lot of us are forgetting what day it is. It's been a long week. Here's a little something to sweeten up your day.

SOUNDCLIP

I love this still of morning nothing stirring. The quiet slipping through, still. Not a car driving on these city streets. My feet bare, my inadvertent tip toe, drawing me closer to cold air. There is infinite possibility here.

MG: That's a poem called Morning Unbroken. It's by the late Canadian writer Tevor Harrison was read by one of our producers. Our next guest shared that poem with us, which is in keeping with something that we're noticing a lot online in these last couple of weeks. It's the sharing of poetry. Meaggan Strimas is a poet and the editor of Tevor Harrison's final book of poetry called Not One of These Poems is About You. Meaghan, good morning.

MEAGHAN STRIMAS: Hi, Matt. How are you?

MG: I'm well, thanks. How are you doing?

MEAGHAN STRIMAS: I'm well, thanks. Happy to be here.

MG: Why did you want to share that poem? Morning Unbroken with us.

MEAGHAN STRIMAS: I love that poem by Tevor because I think what it does is it slows things down for us a little bit and it asks us to sort of relish those beautiful moments that we can have. And I think that's important right now because there's just so much unknown and uncertainty in front of us. And I think, you know, pausing for a moment and seeing some of the wonder and beauty that's around us is important right now.

MG: And that's something the Tevor was doing when she wrote that poem as well. I knew her and loved her work. Tell me a little bit about as the editor of that collection, what she was in the midst of when she was writing that.

MEAGHAN STRIMAS: Well, it's tough. Tevor, while she was writing that last book of what is her last book and her first book of poems was going through stage four metastasized breast cancer. And in many ways, Tevor was a creator and an artist all her life. But what happened is, as you know, the creation of art became even more important to her, as she sort of progressed through the illness. And I think the big reason and we talked about this a little bit is that she needed something to occupy her brain other than just thinking about what lay ahead of her in terms of the illness and the ability to create really provided a kind of lifeline for her. And out of that, so much great beauty and sharing came. And I think, you know, the sort of mode of creation for her was a gift. And in the end, then it's a gift back to us in the world.

MG: How do you see that relating to the situation? And you've hinted at this, but the situation that we all find ourselves in with so much of what we took for granted disappearing and the world turned inside out and upside down in the space of a couple of weeks.

MEAGHAN STRIMAS: Yes. I mean, we're faced with so much uncertainty right now and so much worry. And many of us are feeling really anxious. And so I think sometimes what comes out of eyes when we're all sort of at a distance from one another is a culture of sharing. And I think, you know, there's been an uptick of sort of poetry sharing online. And I think, you know, that's happening because individuals who have found some kind of, you know, soulless in a poem, you know, want to find a way to help others. And by sharing the work of other writers, I think, you know, it's sort of this idea that, hey, this works for me, this calms me down, this, you know, brought me some kind of serenity in my day. And now I want to give this gift back to you. And I think poetry lends itself so well to, you know, sort of calming and focusing the brain, because it really does ask us to pause, to pay attention to every word, the lines lowest down. There's also that beautiful immediate connection that can occur between writer and reader. And that connection, whether it be, oh, you get me. I've had that experience. I've had that moment. You know, we have a shared simpatico kind of feeling. What it does is it alleviate some of that loneliness that a lot of us have been feeling. It alleviates a bit of that anxiety and it lets us move through the day with a little more security comfort.

MG: What is giving you that security and comfort in this moment? Are the poets that you're turning to, is there somebody that who's writing you're turning to now?

MEAGHAN STRIMAS: You know, I'm always reading. I think most writers are always reading. In general. I tend to go back to certain poets. And I think, you know, many of us go back to, you know, those writers who really registered with us at a certain point in our lives. So Elizabeth Bishop is one that I return to often, and it's because she paints such clear portraits in her writing that I sort of become fully immersed in her world. And it provides a kind of escape for me. And it sort of takes that pressure off of those moments where I, I really do become frightened. I think all of us, you know, in these moments, in a time like this, have moments where we become genuinely scared. So having those moments where we can sort of focus on something that takes us a little bit outside of ourselves and lets us see the world around us is helpful.

MG: And slows our mind down, to your point, when it's when it's not racing out of control.

MEAGHAN STRIMAS: Oh, yes. And I think, you know, part of what's happening right now, we're just you know, we're being bombarded with a lot of information and we want to be aware. We want to take it in. But it also agitates us and we have to find ways to sort of calm things down. And we're in this for a longer period of time than we first suspected. And patience and enjoying the moments that we are given right now. There's a lot of gifts that come out of this. You know, more time with perhaps family in the house can be tiring at times. But, you know, it's also, you know, a lovely thing to break from a really hectic lives.

MG: I'm grateful to have had the chance to talk to you. Meaghan, thank you.

MEAGHAN STRIMAS: Thank you so much, Matt.

MG: Meaghan Strimas is a poet, editor and professor at Humber College. We reached her at her home in Hamilton. That poem that we heard at the beginning of our conversation is from Tevor Harrison's final book of poetry called Not One of These Poems is About You. Coming up next on this extended edition of The Current, Michael Bublé, you'll hear Tom Powers conversation with him about what Michael Bublé is doing when it comes to social and personal distancing. That's on its way. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current. Stay with us.

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'I'll do anything I can do': Crooner Michael Bublé urges Canadians to take COVID-19 seriously

Guests: Michael Buble, Johnny Smith

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Still to come, though, probably not the way you wanted. Baseball season, it was supposed to start yesterday. It's not the first time a pandemic has actually derailed the season. We'll bring you that story coming up in our next half hour. But first, a certain CBC host just stepped into this studio.

[Music: Theme]

MG: That host is Tom Power. He's the host of Q on CBC Radio One.

TP: I can hear them crossing their fingers for Carol off. I can hear it. I can hear it somehow through the airwaves. Is it Carol? Is it Carol? Pleas please Carol off to save his. I'll Jeff Douglas. I'll take him. I'll take either one. Chris Herbert. Sure. No old artsy Tom, again.

MG: We're happy to have you here. Thank you.

TP: I'm happy to be here.

MG: Extended edition of The Current. And as I said, we, you know, creep into a later part of the morning. This is your time slot. So it's great to have you here to talk a little bit about music and arts and culture and other things going on.

TP: It's become I mean, I always knew that arts and culture in musicians were going to be important at a time like this, but I was never quite expected how vital they would become. Not just in the way that, as you mentioned last night, which I think was so beautiful to how many Canadians were watching Sarah Harmers Instagram video last night and these performances, but also that Canadian musicians are stepping up. Big star Canadian musicians are stepping up to get the word out about how to take care yourself, how to take care of our communities during the pandemic, including Michael Buble.

MG: Big star himself.

TP: I got in touch with Michael and he came on the show to talk a little bit about COVID-19 and why he personally wanted to step in and make sure that people are staying inside.

MG: This is something that he's been tweeting about.

TP: Yes, he has. He and some other Canadian celebrities are helping Prime Minister Trudeau out there and getting the message out about social distancing and how important it is. But, you know, right off the bat, when I talked to Michael, he made it clear to me why he reached out to the prime minister's office offering his help. Michael, as was, you know, a big story around the world. Michael's son survived cancer, childhood cancer. People going through cancer treatment are often immunocompromised. And also, Michael has had such a deep relationship with doctors and nurses in this country. So he wanted to speak out for them.

SOUNDCLIP

TP: Hi, Michael, how are you?

MICHAEL BUBLE: Good morning, Tom. How are you?

TP: How you holding up?

MICHAEL BUBLE: Good. Listen, I'm one of those people that's, one of those people with privilege, you know, because of the beautiful people of the world and Canada. You know, my wife and I can afford to stay home. So I thought I'd begin this conversation down because I think it's important. I really do. I think it's important to be sensitive to that before we even start talking about all this stuff.

TP: I think you're absolutely right. You know, however, it's not every day the prime minister asks you personally to help spread a message to Canadians. I don't know what a normal day looks like for you, but I have to imagine it's not every day you get a tweet from Justin Trudeau that says Michael Bublé, can you help? You know, what was it like to see that?

MICHAEL BUBLE: Well, I wasn't , to be honest, there was no surprise, because for whatever reason, Tom, I think because it's probably what I've been through with my son and our family. I think that I had a pretty good relationship with all the doctors and health care specialists. And I think they probably saw strength in what my wife and I went through. And I think they felt that they could call me. And so a little more than a week ago, a week and a bit ago, I started to get my first e-mails and calls from different doctors and health care specialists. And the truth is, it was alarming because I had heard, like everyone else had about, you know, coronavirus and we've heard about places starting to get affected. But then I started to see projections and I started to see models that I don't think a lot of the public really had got to see, or at least, you know, the public wasn't sure if the information was good. You know, the way that the world is now and you have people like Donald Trump shouting out that things are fake news. I think it's really hard to trust the media and trust, you know, the news you're getting. So I started to get the news from doctors and health care specials that I did trust. And the first thing that people started to say to me was, you know, Michael- the first call I got actually was from a doctor named Tammy who called me and said: We're desperate. This is this is going to be really bad. You know, she had projections that told us that within five or six days, it would be a burden on the health care system. And within, you know, eleven to fifteen, it could get really bad. I mean Italy bad. And and she said, can you help with the message? Can you help get this out? People, you know, need to stay home, they need to social distance, they need to wash their hands. And as the days went by, these calls started to double. I mean, I started to get, honestly, from so many different specialists. And then through one, I would talk to another. And very quickly, it went from being moderate time with doctors and health care people calling me and saying, hey, you know, let's spread the message to the message isn't working. And this is too late and. And can you call our prime minister? And that's what I did. I started to call the prime minister's office and they got back to me and I started to tell them exactly what I thought. And I started to ask them what their plan was. And so I think that definitely it wasn't, it was something that we've done together with the prime minister as opposed to being a different two pronged approach or separate. I mean, I've really called them and they've called me and both talked about how best, you know, we can help. And the thing is, I know I'm just some singer guy. But, you know, I told them I'll do anything I can do. And so I talk to every hockey player. I mean, I've talked to Sidney Crosby, to Wayne Gretzky, to anyone you can imagine. I've sat on face time with anyone from Beaver. And more than that, I tried myself to make sure the message was serious. And, you know, and I think like it's I think it's going to get more safe. I think our prime minister has counted on Canadians to try to be true to their best nature and hoped that it was enough that people would be compassionate and caring about their countrymen and their countrywomen. But I think his patience is run out. And I think that when you saw him speaking or sending out those tweets, I think you can call the warnings you like getting it was a final appeal for Canadians to follow the rules. Because if they refuse, I think he's going to take it out of our hands — and he should.

TP: Let's get that. Let's get that message out there. We know you talk about wanting to spread the message to Canadians. You want to get the message out there, to as many people as you can. What is the message you want to spread here?

MICHAEL BUBLE: Number one, listen, that businesses it's so serious. Tom I'll be really frank with you, I don't want to be scary, but I think we're past the point of political correctness. This morning I have a girlfriend from New York that I've known for many years and she has just written me and and I knew it was bad in her family. They've been at a wedding in Rochester. And here's what I have just this morning. Michael, my father's on a ventilator. His kidneys are failing. His blood pressure is dropping. I'm afraid we'll lose him. My aunt is also not expected to make it. My brother is also in very bad shape. My husband went to the hospital for my mom, but he has a terribly sore throat. And I'm so scared. That's just one person sitting in New York. And I know it's not Canada, but what's happening in New York will inevitably happen here. And you know, how long is it going to take for people, truly, to stop? I took my kids to Burnaby Mountain [and] there were people —12 people, 12 kids — up on a mountain drinking beer. How was- does it take your mom or your grandpa or your son to be on life support in a the hospital to understand the seriousness that we're at war? You know, we are at war, it's time to respect the enemy. And I'm not sure. To tell you that I'm disappointed that people still are going out that are still hanging out and go and drink beer with their neighbors. You I'm not. And more than that, that the companies that know they should close should close. You know, Tom, more than that, I. Well, I talk the prime minister's office, one of the things I said was- listen, it's lovely for me to take off work. I mean, I'm lucky I have enough money that I can do that. Some people don't. And what I was told was to reassure people that the emergency insurance benefits was on its way, and that it would cover everybody who's been impacted. And the entire focus was basically to ensure that not one person would be left out, would fall through the cracks. And that's never been done before. But I think they're doing their very best to try to handle this in a calm and efficient way.

TP: I'm glad you're getting that message, Adam, glad people are staying inside and obviously we need more people to do that, more people to self isolate, more people to stay and stop going out to the parks, stop going out and drink beer with their friends and take this, as you say, extremely seriously as it is. On another side of things, how are you finding it just as a parent and not as a big music superstar? How are you finding as a parent just being home with the kids?

MICHAEL BUBLE: I like they call me big music star.

TP: Well, you know, that's the tradeoff here. You know, I got [cross talking].

MICHAEL BUBLE: The failed hockey player slash karaoke singer. You know what? I realized that if heaven exists, which I believe it does, when we go up there, we're going to find many teachers with bigger halos than everyone else. I've realized that there are so many things that I am — and one of the things that I am not is a teacher, a home school teacher. Oh, my God. It is, my wife and I just look at each other and and just we were talking yesterday about my son's. Grade one teacher, Miss Pacile. I have never missed Miss Pacile so much in my in my life. And I know what parents are doing. You know, we've tried to do as we've tried to do the schedule of our home so that in the morning we do in about an hour and a bit of homeschooling, we do, you know, math and reading and things like that, letters and drawing. And then we do, we have, after that we go and we do exercising. We watch videos on YouTube and the kids all do like aerobics and stuff just to get everybody moving. You know, and then go through the day. We try to play games. We try to fill up our time with each other. But my God, man, by the end of the day, I am, it's like we're dead. We're dead.

TP: I bet you are. I bet you are. It's nice to hear, though, you know, I think a lot of us who have kids home and whether you have kids home or you don't you aren't starting to look at teachers right now, and the job they do looking after youngsters is stuff like that. And really now there were you know, obviously it's always been appreciated by us, but maybe not as widely as perhaps it should.

MICHAEL BUBLE: I think people are really understanding that it's really nice to have that break.

TP: You can teach them how to sing, you know?

MICHAEL BUBLE: Yes, of course they sing all the time. My kid plays- Last night I was on with David Foster. We're face timing, just I'm just checking on him and see I was doing him and my son went all our piano and played Ode to Joy for him. David was impressed by it.

TP: Michael, I want to close off this way. You know, you and I have spoken in the past about hard times, and you've told me a little bit about how you've coped during hard times. And you dig really deep. And, you know, you strike me as a very spiritual person. So what's getting you through these days now?

MICHAEL BUBLE: Well, I mean, there's a lot I mean, you know, I think staying busy, you know, staying active, trying to keep my days full of different things, whether that's being with the kids or just activities, you know, with the wife or anything from even organizing, reorganizing a closet or, you know, just anything to pass the time, because at the end of the day, that's what we've got to do. We've got to get through this a day at a time. And that's the only way really to do it, is to kind of take in bite size pieces. And as far as spirituality and stuff, definitely our faith has been a huge part of getting us through. And so we you know, it's nice for us to sit and watch sort of online services and things like that helps us. And while I would never push that upon anyone else, I'd hope that if people don't have that in their lives, that they could find the peace that my wife and I were given during our toughest times.

TP: In just the last couple of seconds we have here, what's your advice to Canadians who are who are feeling stuck home right now?

MICHAEL BUBLE: I think you need to have perspective. I really do. And I think it's been said now many times — it's become sort of a cliche — but, you know, our grandparents were asked to fight in a war, and we're just being asked to watch Netflix on the couch. And, you know, I think we can all do that.

TP: Thanks for your time, Michael.

MICHAEL BUBLE: Thanks, Tom.

MG: That's Tom Power in conversation with Michael Bublé. And Tom will be back in the next half hour of The Current.

[Music]

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One, an extended edition of the program. My name is Matt Galloway. Yesterday was supposed to be the start of baseball season, but that too is on hold this year. Instead, we've got highlight reels and this to keep us company.

SOUNDCLIP

[Song: Take Me Out to the Ball Game]

MG: A stretch for you from more than 100 years ago, take me out to the ballgame, was right around that time, 100 years or so ago that Major League Baseball, along with the rest of the world, was dealing with a different pandemic. Johnny Smith has a new book out about that dire time in baseball. It's called War Fever: boston Baseball and America in the Shadow of the Great War. Johnny, good morning.

JOHNNY SMITH: Good morning, thanks for having me.

MG: Thanks for joining us, do you miss baseball already?

JOHNNY SMITH: Yes, it's so strange, right? That there are no gains and it's not just that we don't have baseball, we don't have the NBA. The Toronto Raptors aren't playing. We should be talking about that. You know, kids should be out playing in the street, you know, playing basketball and baseball and soccer. And, you know, that they're robbed of right now, too. And it's it's a bit sad.

MG: How does the way that baseball today is dealing with this pandemic compare to the way that the Red Sox, a Major League Baseball deal with the Spanish flu?

JOHNNY SMITH: Well, let's keep this in mind, 1918 is the last year of the Great War, and for much of that season, what the owners were primarily concerned about was not the Spanish influenza outbreak that comes later in the year, which I'll explain in a minute. But for most of the baseball season, the crisis that the owners were facing was the draft. They start the season. They don't know how long they'll be able to keep baseball stadiums open, because as the season goes on, there are these draft registration drives and players are being plucked off of rosters. And so they're just growing concern of whether or not they're going to be able to continue this season. And this goes on in April and May and June and July. Well, ultimately, what happens is the War Department allows Major League Baseball to play a shortened season. They tell them, okay, your players, they will not get a deferment. But we will allow them to play the game through the games, through Labor Day. Ultimately, what happens, though, is that because the season is shortened, the World Series is played in September, not in October. Now, this is important for a couple of reasons. When the World Series between the Red Sox and Cubs was played in early September 1918, it's the very moment the Spanish influenza. And it was known in the press hits Boston and Boston becomes the epicenter for the outbreak. The outbreak continued well through October. And it's the World Series has been played and had been scheduled to be played in October. There is no way they could have played the game for them.

MG: Did any of the Red Sox get the Spanish flu?

JOHNNY SMITH: Yes, a number of players did, so there were two waves of the Spanish flu. The first wave was the spring of 1918. And we know that a number of players contracted a mild case of the flu during spring training when they were in Arkansas, they were in Hot Springs, Arkansas, for spring training. But then there was a major crisis on the team. The star, Babe Ruth, a dominant left handed pitcher who's emerging as a slugger in a home run hitter. For the first time in baseball history, someone is actually up at the plate swinging to hit the ball over the fence. Babe Ruth gets the flu and it gets it so bad that a doctor tries to treat him with this silver nitrate solution. He has a terrible reaction to it. He has to be hospitalized. There are rumors in Boston that Babe Ruth has died or is on his deathbed. Now, ultimately, Ruth would recover, but he would contract the virus again in October when he returned to Baltimore. A number of Boston sports writers actually died from the influenza. One of them, Edward Martin of The Boston Globe, the Red Sox owner, Harry frazey. He had a minor bout with the flu in the fall of 1918. But really, I think the thing that I want to stress to the listeners today is that when the World Series was played in Boston, the last three games are played at Fenway Park. That's when the outbreak was hitting the civilian population. And there were all of these social gatherings going on because of the war; a draft registration drive, parades and those games. The World Series helps spread the outbreak.

MG: We hear now about this idea of physical distancing or social distancing. How did Fenway deal with the crowds that would be coming to the World Series that year with with the flu sweeping through the nation?

JOHNNY SMITH: Well, so the first game began on September 5th in Chicago. And on that day, Massachusetts health authorities warned city leaders that this outbreak, which began at the Commonwealth Pier in Boston Harbor, it is now. It's not contained. It's not just a problem for the sailors at the pier. It is hitting the civilian population. That warning was ignored. The games went on. In fact, if you read the Boston papers in early September, it didn't seem too dire. It seemed like this was a problem only at the pier. But gradually, as September unfold after the series and it is becoming increasingly clear that people are sick, that people are dying into the city, must do something. In fact, in late September, Boston health officials told the mayor, we have to have a closure. We have to have what we would call today social distancing until a closure order is put into effect. And so people are told, you can't go to restaurants, you can't go to bars, you can't go to theaters. And people listened. And I think that the lesson for us today from 1918 is that social distancing works. The cities in 1918 that were aggressive in their response then issued closure orders were able to mitigate fatalities. Now, here's the other lesson from 1918, when the closure order was lifted in Boston in mid-October, people rushed out back to those theaters and bars and restaurants despite warnings that the flu had not disappeared and it would facilitate a third wave of influenza. And so we're going to have to be very careful that when people are being told okay, it's safe to go back out in public and social gatherings. We should move with extreme caution.

MG: To your point, the food doesn't go away. It continues back. There's another wave. And in 1919, there's still a baseball season and there's the Spanish flu is still on. Why was the season continuing?

JOHNNY SMITH: Well, the third world would not nearly as severe as the second wave if things were not as dire in 1919 as they were in 1918. The majority of American deaths from the flu took place between September and December of 1918. The other thing that we should keep in mind, too, is how the government responded to this influenza outbreak in the United States. The war is going on and that dominates everything. And so at that time, there's extreme government censorship. The administration of Woodrow Wilson does not want the public to learn about how the outbreak is affecting soldiers in France, and it's affecting soldiers in U.S. military camps. And so the public really doesn't know what is going on until it hits the civilian population quite clearly in September of 1918. And so there's this real delayed reaction from the public and it's too late. And this is why it's so important that our government leaders tell the truth. You cannot manage the truth. You cannot try to fudge the numbers about the cases. People have to have clear eyed information. And that's why I'm so thankful for the hard work that journalists are doing right now, keeping us informed, giving us access to health officials.

MG: We just have a few seconds left. There are great stories that come from sports. And you're a historian who had captures life in baseball. How do you think sports historians will remember this year in sport?

JOHNNY SMITH: I think the question that the sports historians will ask when they look back on this moment is what did athletes and team owners do in this moment? How did they respond to it in terms of being leaders? Did they use their platforms the way that Steph Curry did just the other day to talk to physicians, to educate the public? I think that's the greatest power that our famous athletes have right now, is to use their platform to educate people, particularly young people, of the risks, right now.

MG: Sports can be a powerful distraction. And at a time when we should be talking about baseball and spring is in the air, it feels good to talk about a little bit of baseball. Johnny, thank you.

JOHNNY SMITH: Thank you for having me.

MG: Johnny Smith is the coauthor of a new book, it's called War Fever: boston Baseball and America in the Shadow of the Great War.

MG: Well, coming up in about 90 seconds time, we'll take you to the epicenter of COVID-19 in the United States. New York City. That city is struggling with a surge of new cases. Many people say that help hasn't come fast enough. You hear from patients, you hear from doctors and people who know what the health care system needs, but also what it is not getting right now. That's on its way in just about a minute and a half's time. My name is Matt Galloway. This is an extended edition of The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

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Vanessa Carlton

Guest: Vanessa Carlton

MG: This is The Current on CBC 1 I Matt Galloway just before we leave you for the day, our buddy Tom Power's back Hello.

TP: Hello, Matt. How are you?

MG: I'm well, thanks. You have a conversation for us that will be of interest to anyone who has been looking for music that would give them some sort of grounding for something to keep them calm in the midst of all of this.

TP: Do you remember that song? [Sings] If I could fall into the sky with that. Do you think time would pass me by?

MG: I'm not going to sing along.

TP: I thought I had a good chance.

MG: Not a chance.

TP: That was Vanessa Carlton, platinum selling American singer. I tell you what's a bummer. I mean, everything's kind of a bummer. But what particularly a bummer for poor Vanessa Carlton is she's been working on her album for like five years, which was to be her big comeback to prove that she was not this one hit wonder of a thousand miles. She decides to put off the record as a that now's not the right time. You know, what's a good time to put out a record? March, April. So now in the midst of all this, she's decided to keep putting out the album because she says the album that was made to inspire people at any time, to help people get together at anytime is particularly pertinent right now.

MG: Good for her.

TP: So this is my conversation on album release day with Vanessa Carlton.

SOUNDCLIP

TP: Hi, Vanessa.

VANESSA CARLTON: Hello.

TP: Congrats on Release Day, by the way.

VANESSA CARLTON: Thank you. What a strange, strange time. And I to be honest, I feel like it's, it couldn't be a better time to release music. I honestly set times and maybe you feel this way, and others too that are listening, but I don't know how to feel. Sometimes. I don't. This is like an unprecedented thing in my life. At the same time, I think, you know, I make my own schedule. I think artists in a way have a little bit of relief where they're like, well, they have to figure out what they're going to do in their house that day because they have to set their up, their routine, their creative routine, their break, you know. So that's sort of helpful.

TP: You know, a lot of a lot of artists haven't been putting out their albums. You know, I know that like Haim and Lady Gaga, they decided to push back their album releases in light of the COVID-19 pandemic. Other artists like Bash Bolat and Jesse Rayas and yourself have decided to keep making these records and keep putting them out. Tell me tell me why that's something you wanted to do.

VANESSA CARLTON: Well, I mean, for me, music has always been my mental medicine. It's something that just makes my brain feel better, whether it's music that's good to like soothe me or music that is going to be a channel for me to express so much pain or anger or whatever. So I don't, during this time, I just want to give it away. I mean, I just want everyone to have it. And I do think that that music is, and art in general, is just such a freeing saying for human beings. It just is, I think would be helpful at this time.

TP: Are you able to do something to celebrate your release day in any way? A cheers or a bowl of chips or something?

VANESSA CARLTON: I will be drinking alcohol. I will not be having a bowl of chips. Perhaps a very fine Japanese whiskey. I mean, I've been working on this project for years, for two years, I think two and half years. I finished it actually early last year, but I did a Broadway show where I played, I did a 10 week run. And I you know, the preparation and everything I had, we delayed the record till now, clearly prime time. But yeah, I mean, the concept, the concept of the album came to me two years ago and I started writing then. The concept of the record is about how we connect to each other as human beings. And it's all different types of love, whether it's romantic love or, you know, friendship or being a parent or whatever. But it is this meditation on how we connect, how we, how we grow ourselves, how we destroy ourselves and how we find our mirrors, you know.

TP: Feels it feels appropriate for a time like this, I'm glad you're putting it out.

VANESSA CARLTON: Thank you.

TP: Vanessa. How have you found the concerts? The livestreaming?

VANESSA CARLTON: Well, I got heckled by my five year old yesterday, annoyed by that.

TP: What do you mean you got heckled by your five year old?

VANESSA CARLTON: It went so good for the first three livestreams. I mean, she's a total ham and she was killing it. You know, there was amazing commentary about how crunchy her apple was and how she was sorry about that. And how apples and peppers are the crunchiest, and sorry. You know, she's to watch as my audience member, but it's hard, you know, then yesterday's you is like 'and me and me'. And she kept saying it over and over again [unintelligible]. You know, look out for me. And I'm sure other people out there are struggling with the same thing. I think it's like I need routine. I need to find routine. I need to get dressed. I need to, you know, be there for my kid. I need to not be buried into my phone and on Twitter or on the news and losing my mind. And then I have these livestreams to look forward to where I play one old song. One new song. I have to prepare for it. You know, maybe a couple of hundred people are watching whatever. We just get to have a moment together. And it's, it is getting me through to be honest.

TP: I think it's getting a lot of people through just to have that connection. That was certainly like, we see it with you. Like we feel connected to you when we see you. But it's nice to know that you feel the same way going back.

VANESSA CARLTON: Yes. Oh, for sure. I think we're all in this together. And humans need connection. We all need it.

TP: Well, congratulations on your new record. I hope you have a fine Japanese whiskey.

VANESSA CARLTON: Oh, I will. Well, thank you so much.

TP: I hope you get a chance to celebrate. And let me just say congratulations on it.

VANESSA CARLTON: I so appreciate that. Thank you.

MG: That's Tom Power speaking with the singer Vanessa Carlton. It was lovely.

TP: [Sings] And I would fall into the sky.

MG: If I had a lute, I would play along with you, but I won't and I can't play the lute.

TP: I say if that's the only song, you know, by Vanessa Carlton, I actually think her new album will be so charming. It's so wonderful. And I'm so excited to play a song from it.

MG: It's great when people are proven not to be one hit wonder.

TP: Absolutely.

MG: Tom, thank you.

TP: Thank you, Matt.

MG: That's it for us today. We'll leave you with some new music from that Vanessa Carlton album. This is a song called The Only Way to Love. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. Take care of yourself.

SOUNDCLIP

[Song: The Only Way to Love by Vanessa Carlton]

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Friday March 27, 2020 Full Transcript

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