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The Current Transcript for March 25, 2020

Host: Matt Gallaway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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JUSTIN TRUDEAU: When you're trying to help get money out to people, speed is of the essence, especially in an unprecedented situation like this one. But I want to make it very clear I believe in our democratic institutions.

MATT GALLOWAY: Speed is indeed of the essence when it comes to aid for those suffering through the Koven 19 economic meltdown. But finding common ground in the House of Commons proved more difficult for the prime minister. Our national affairs panel sits waiting to explain why it took so long and what it will mean for those who need help now. Also this morning, as the pandemic sweeps across this country, the view from the E.R., from a doctor who has a sense of what might be coming and what from his seat as a meditation teacher might help us through this. Plus, Stephen Lewis on Africa and the pandemic. And later, what are you doing with all that spare time you now have? Anything? Anything.

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What are the most common excuses is lack of time. Well, if we have to stay inside and be away from people for a little while, we now have to get the time.

MG: The pressure to do something productive in an era of quarantine. We start, though, in Ottawa with the fight for financial relief. Good morning. How are you doing? I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

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National affair panel

Guests: Marie Vastel, Niigaan Sinclair, Aaron Wherry

MG: Early this morning in a pre-dawn vote, the federal government's $82 billion financial aid package was passed unanimously by the House, but not before the opposition sparred with the Liberals over the details contained within.

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ANDREW SCHEER: We're prepared to quickly pass the measures that the Prime Minister had announced to date. What we were not prepared for was the government's attempted undemocratic power grab.

JAGMEET SINGH: The government has shown that they're interested in helping Canadians, but if they truly want to help Canadians, we need to do more and we need to do it faster.

MG: There is a lot to discuss with our national affairs panel. Let's get to it. Aaron Wherry is a senior writer with the CBC at Parliament Hill Bureau. Marie Vastel is the parliamentary correspondent for Le Devoir, and Niigaan Sinclair, columnist with the Winnipeg Free Press. Good morning to you all. Marie, this finally passed, but it was not easy. Briefly, just explain how we got to this point where in the wee small hours, those who were able to get to the House were able to pass this bill.

MARIE VASTEL: Right. Well, essentially, the government was hoping to adopt its aid package that was announced last week in a few hours yesterday. It ended up taking 17 more hours has been planned. So this this new bill that was adopted in the early hours, as you said, essentially brings in all the the measures, the aid measures that were announced last week by the prime minister. So help for workers, help for people who don't qualify for EI who need to take time off because of a quarantine and also help for businesses. But the process became a lot more complicated, essentially, because I think we saw partisanship come back into what had been so far a pretty non political crisis. Essentially, I would say two people were probably or two parties were probably to blame. So on the one hand, the liberals asked for these new sweeping, new spending powers that people have heard about over the past day, as the Liberals asking to be able to spend new money without coming back to get the approval of the parliament in the House of Commons in the Senate until December 2021. So essentially almost two years from now. That what was said to be a bargaining tactic in the hopes of, you know, getting the opposition to agree to something a little less than that. In the meantime, but maybe not the smartest thing to do. And the backlash should have been expected. On the other hand, you had the conservatives who I would argue were also a little bit partisan yesterday, first when they leaked that draught of the bill, saying that the negotiations were going sour. And then with that press conference from which you heard Andrew Scheer a bit earlier in your show. So essentially, we had this sort of tug of war yesterday that lasted about 17 hours, was supposed to back at noon. They ended up coming back at 3:00 a.m. Some of my colleagues who were a little more keen maybe have stayed up to watch the debate. And the package was eventually adopted at 5:30, about 5:30 this morning. Now, it has to go to the Senate today and hopefully get royal assent at the end of day.

MG: Aaron Wherry, this is a time of crisis and perhaps Canadians might expect all political parties to be working together. How does this challenge that? I mean, is it just, you know, politics as usual when it comes to trying to address this crisis?

AARAN WHERRY: I mean, I think you can you can take some solace in the fact that they came to a conclusion or came to the conclusion that they came to, which is that there's there's going to be some some pretty extraordinary spending power. But with parliamentary oversight. But I think, you know, and I think that's that's sort of that looks at least, you know, on first glance like a fairly decent compromise. I mean, I think there were sort of two impulses here that ran up against each other. One, is the government wanting to be able to act very fast and very quickly to a global pandemic without having to reconvene parliament. And the other impulse was the opposition saying, you know, we want to be able to have some oversight and hold you accountable for what you're doing. And, you know, what they've come to as a conclusion is, okay, you get some extraordinary spending powers, but at the same time, you're going to have to, you know, face the health committee, the Finance Committee are going to be meeting, you know, by teleconference, meeting remotely. You're going to have to report back to- the finance minister is going to have to report back to the parties. You know, I think it's fair to say that the, you know, political parties, politicians should set aside maybe some of the the excesses of politics in normal times. But I think this is sort of an example of the fact that you still need a parliament and you still need some kind of accountability function, you know, working so that, you know, you get some scrutiny, you get some accountability, even during what are truly extraordinary times.

MG: Niigaan Sinclair, you were one of those colleagues who was up all night watching this?

NIIGAAN SINCLAIR: I would definitely watch until as late as that could go. What I kept waiting for throat yesterday was some kind of conversation or the details around the package itself. And that's probably the most disappointing part is that, you know, there are some real concerning there in the details of this package. And they particularly have to do with the fact that, you know, people, the homeless and particularly dangerous communities, they're getting these pockets of money that are rather undefined and there's no conversation about where that's going to go. So the real concern is, is that as we're seeing with corporations and the banks, if you give money without real stringent measures, then there's the chance of corruption and mismanagement. And so of course, there's not much time to discuss this bill. But the fact that we're talking more about powers and limiting powers versus the details of the bill itself, I think is is a general problem for Canadians.

MG: Marie Vestal, just very briefly on this point, then, when is this money going to get into the hands of the Canadians who need it the most?

MARIE VASTEL: Yes, which is the most important question. Right. And I think it was what was a bit frustrating yesterday for Canadians sitting at home who aren't going to work because their job was cut or because they can't go to work because they're in quarantine and they desperately need this money. I was told that, you know, 17 hours is really going to change when the money comes. Premier Francois Legault, yesterday in his daily press conference suggested that those first EI checks might be available around April 6th. Some people say it might take a tiny bit longer. So unfortunately, the help is maybe still a couple of weeks away. But I guess the good news in all this is that it seems like it will be coming soon. Given that they've all finally agreed.

MG: And it was interesting, the prime minister has been speaking every day. And one of the things that he has said in the last couple of days is that Canadians aren't doing enough physical distancing and staying home. And we saw the images coming out of Vancouver where people were crowded on beaches, for example. You pointed out that he sounds a bit like a disappointed father.

AARAN WHERRY: Yes, he does. He sounds like I mean, you know, maybe it's what happens when he's been cooped up with three kids for whatever it is now tentative. Butit's you know, this government has struck a tone from the start that it needs citizens to take their responsibility to social distance, to stay home, and that this doesn't - this whole response doesn't really work if people don't adhere to that. And there's been this this sort of second impulse of people saying, well, invoke emergency legislation, force people to stay home, you know, take extraordinary measures to not just ask for people to quarantine themselves or self isolate, but force them to. And I think the government is running up against the fact that, you know, a, that's that would be a very draconian response. And, b, it's probably not that feasible. You can't really force people to stay home.

MG: Why can't you? We've seen that in other jurisdictions.

AARAN WHERRY: Well, it's I think it's two things on that. One, it's pretty hard to do in a large country without a massive expansive of resources that you don't necessarily want to spend your time worrying about keeping people at home. You want to spend your time worrying about, you know, dealing with a with the health impacts and dealing with the economic impact. I think the other thing is, and from my understanding of how it's worked in other countries, as other countries have realised that forcing people to stay home, forcing lockdowns isn't necessarily as conducive to a solution as as trying to get the public to go along with you and trying to get abroad by and for what you're doing. And so I think the government is running up against that. So it leaves you in a position where you know, the prime minister it has been extraordinary to listen to, you know, the prime minister of a country talking to people about good personal hygiene and staying home. And it's a bit odd. And I can understand the impulse for people to say, you know, no, the government, the state should be enforcing this. But I think it's probably when it comes right down to it, really be the best and only option here.

MG: Niigaan, what's it been like where you live? Are people heeding the advice, too? We were initially calling this social distancing. Now we're trying to be physical distancing and still be in social contact with people. Are people doing that where you are?

NIIGAAN SINCLAIR: Yeah. I mean, we in Manitoba, we've seen the lowest amount of people with positive COVID-19 diagnosis. And I think for the most part because Manitoba got on board quite early and took it quite seriously, quite early. Now, the issue is, is that will that continue. And the challenges; will people continue to take things seriously, in their everyday lives. You know, if anything that this pandemic has demonstrated is that Canadians, when called upon and when seeing the evidence in front of them, can change their lifestyles. And I wrote about that and calling to say, you know, we could change this in an environmental way as well. And so it's real evidence that when there is evidence presented to Canadians, I think that Aaron is right to say that the concern is that if you come in with draconian legislation and you force peoples to make a change that tends to not be as persuasive as to present evidence and to show that the more important thing is to make changes within your own line. And I think that's been probably the most inspiring thing that we've seen here in Manitoba.

MG: You talked about the financial aid package, Niigaan, and in particular, what isn't in there in terms of the details for indigenous communities. We've been hearing over the course of the last couple of days, certainly in the last couple of weeks of concerns in those communities around the ability to do physical distancing, but also the systemic challenges that make a crisis like this even more pronounced. What are you hearing in those communities about what people are looking for?

NIIGAAN SINCLAIR: Well, yesterday there was five cases [unintelligible]. And it is evident that within an indigenous community, whether it be urban, which often are inner city areas, often poverty stricken communities, or whether they be rural, which is rural First Nations communities. There are specific health challenges that exponentially increase the spread of COVID. And we saw that evidence during H1N1 pandemic. So the problem, of course, is that you have to directly address the issues within First Nations that are most regularly poverty centred. You have to do that in a very direct way. And the fact is that if we don't deal with indigenous communities in a direct way, then all of us are going to be impacted by that. Whether you're in the most rural of areas or whether it's the most privileged of areas. So the the $3.5 million that are in the indigenous community support fund from this $82 million will likely not be able to address the issues that indigenous communities are going to be facing when later, likely this weekend, we're going to see more, more cases exponentially increase. As you can see in most communities, it adds one or two at a time or probably a dozen at a time. Indigenous communities are going to see that two or three times more, faster spreading because of the issues are in poverty.

MG: Marie, what's your take on this needle that the government is trying to thread when it comes to making sure that it is presenting a message that is coherent, that speaks to all Canadians, but also respecting other levels of government and the rules that those other levels of government play?

MARIE VASTEL: I think Aaran's right. That's that they're trying to air on the side of encouraging people rather than forcing them to do so. And the Niigaan probably right. That if you start off right from the beginning by enforcing it, maybe people are a bit hesitant to oblige by that. But I do think that you're starting to see two things at the federal government losing patience, as we mentioned, but also local governments sort of taking things into their own hands. And it's true that it would be hard to enforce a formal lockdown of the entire country. But you are seeing it in certain cities where it to police is sort of taking things into their own hands. And when they are made aware, made aware, of someone who is not respecting their quarantine order, for example, we saw it in Quebec City, not far from here, where a woman was diagnosed with COVID-19. She was out and about for a walk while the police intervened and essentially told her to go home. You are starting to see that. I think for now, the federal government is essentially deciding to leave this in the provinces and the municipalities hands. And we've had this entire debate about whether we should bring in the Emergencies Act or not. Justin Trudeau keep saying, you know, it's not out of the question, it's still on the table. But there seems to be a divide amongst for now amongst the provinces as to whether the government should the federal government should bring it in or not. And the divide seems to be between bigger provinces and smaller provinces. So you have Ontario, Quebec, Alberta really insisting on their own provincial jurisdiction. I think they want to have the flexibility to do what they need to do in their own territory where they know what's best, essentially is what they're saying. But you do have New Brunswick saying they would like some more uniformity, as we're seeing across the country in terms of measures. Mr. Kenny suggested that the territories also would like a little bit more help. I think for now, there does seem to be an alignment between provinces as to what's allowed, what's not allowed. Ontario, Quebec, closing nonessential businesses, schools being closed pretty much everywhere. So far you see that uniformity as opposed to in the states, for example, where, you know, 50 states are essentially sort of doing what they think is best. Right. But I wonder if at some point the impatience that Aaron mentioned from Mr. Trudeau is going going to take over and maybe he's not going to want to give the provinces so much leeway anymore if he sees that people aren't staying home despite encouraging messages.

MG: Just in the last few minutes that we have, people often say that you learn a lot about who you are in a crisis. And so very briefly and I'll start with you, Murray. What do you think? Covid-19, has revealed about Canadians and who we are.

MARIE VASTEL: Yes, I'm sort of torn on this question. I want to see it revealed the positive where you see small businesses wanting to help health care workers by, you know, bringing them food. You see people wanting to help their local business by by buying, let's say, gift certificates they can use later on to to keep them keep those businesses in business. You also see people smiling when you go for a walk, but you also see people on beaches in Vancouver who are not listening. And so to me, it's hard to pick one or the other. I'm sort of torn between seeing the best in people, but also seeing some really stubborn people out there who don't really want to listen.

MG: People are smiling at each other more and waving at each other and just kind of hollering from, you know, from the balcony or from the the patio or something like that. Aaron, what are you seeing? What have we learned about who we are in this crisis?

AARAN WHERRY: I mean, I think broadly speaking, it's positive. You know, I think to the story that went around, it feels like weeks ago. But I think there's probably days ago.

MG: Time becomes elastic.

AARAN WHERRY: Of the request that was put out, I think, in Ontario for four retired nurses to help with telehealth and, you know, 3000 or something responded. It's I think there is broadly speaking, it's been positive in that it's shown people have faith in in medical professionals. They broadly have faith in governments to listen to governments and trust what's coming out of governments in this moment. And that broadly, you know, people understand they have a responsibility, personal responsibility and then responsibility to each other. And then there is that that gap of, you know, it's hard to say how many people who either aren't that informed of what's going on or don't take it seriously. And that, I think it's very easy, especially in in in journalism, to think that everyone is tapped into the news and taking it as seriously as you are. And there's a bit of a realisation here that that not everyone is. Although I think one of the most interesting things the prime minister said this week was effectively, you know, you have a responsibility to know this. You have a responsibility to listen. You have a responsibility to know what's going on. And that I think is is a huge point. And we'll see sort of in the days ahead how much it's taken.

MG: Niigaan Sinclair, last minute to you. What have we learned about ourselves in this?

NIIGAAN SINCLAIR: Well, I've already said the real things that people have noticed or what I've noticed is that Canadians can change their lifestyles when they want to. And there's the evidence is certainly there. I mean, we've had a 20 to 30 percent reduction of nitrogen dioxide in the atmosphere as a result of the industry reduction. And that's actually saved lives in countries up to 70,000 people over seniors, for example, due to the lack of air pollution. But the real thing that I think that Canadians [unintelligible] most directly is that the heroes of this fight are those who have been often the most marginalized or the most mistreated by governments. Those are the ones who are in the health care profession. Often police, and street level organizations dealing with poverty. That's the stuff, the heroes of this country, they're fighting it every single day. And often the people who are making minimum wage, serving us our food, giving us, stocking the shelf. Yes, it is. Those people were most often marginalized, but they are been the heroes of this fight.

MG: Worth remembering. Take care of yourselves, all of you. This is a difficult time and a tricky time. And we need you to be healthy and be well. Thank you for joining us this morning.

MARIE VASTEL: Thank you so much.

AARAN WHERRY: Thank you.

MG: Aaron Wherry is a senior writer with the CBC is parliamentary bureau. Marie Vastel is the parliamentary correspondent for Le Devoir. Niigaa Sinclair is a columnist with the Winnipeg Free Press. We could turn that question over to you. What do we learn about ourselves as Canadians in this crisis? You can let us know through the Web site, cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the contact link. You can tweet us @ThrCurrentCBC or send us an email. The mailbag is very full. We've been getting a lot of comments about the extended version of the of The Current. You can e-mail us at thecurrent@cbc.ca. CBC News is next. And then step away from that skid of black beans. Panic buyers are clearing out grocery stores, hoarding a lot of food right now. Want to take a breath and ask why? How secure is this country's food supply? And is that supply ready for what we're in the midst of? That's coming up in about six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current. Stay with us.

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Securing Canada’s food supply

Guests: Mary Robinson, Chris Bernardi, Ellen Goddard

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come on this extended version of the show, humanitarian and former diplomat Stephen Lewis, we'll talk about the COVID-19 pandemic at home and abroad. But first, before you fill that shopping cart. Food for thought.

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MG: It's a familiar scene for many Canadians as we lived through this pandemic. You walk into the grocery store, the item you're looking for isn't there. Yesterday it was toilet paper. Today might be ground beef or frozen vegetables tomorrow? Who knows. While our country's biggest grocers rush to restock shelves, the perception of shortage, food shortage in particular is triggering a very primal question in the brain. Are we going to run out? Today, we're going to try to answer that question to follow our food supply from farm to factory to the supermarket. Mary Robinson is the president of the Canadian Federation of Agriculture. She helps manage a six generation family farm in Albany on Prince Edward Island. Mary, good morning.

MARY ROBINSON: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Let's start with the operation that you own. Workers right now are packing potatoes. How is this pandemic affecting the day to day operations on your farm?

MARY ROBINSON: Well, we know the demand is very strong and our crews have been working 12 hour shifts, they've been working extended shifts in order to try to fill the demand. And what we've done in-house is we've tried to be very clear in our communication with our team, trying to make sure that they understand what kind of measures they should be taking personally to make sure they're safe and that the workplace is safe. We've been doing things like providing meals during the shifts, trying to be aware and sensitive of people's kind of personal situations at home and any sensitivities they might have. And all of this, while we're certainly keeping our eye on the reality that seems to be coming and that is that we're probably going to see dwindling numbers in the workforce and how we need to figure out how to address that, as the very beginning of the journey that food takes to get to your fork starts on every farm.

MG: This is spring and we are coming out of a long winter. You hear that phrase, you know, you reap what you sow. And it really does say a lot about how important this time of the year is. How key for you are the next few weeks.

MARY ROBINSON: So there's such a huge variety of firms across Canada and varying requirements of labour and any inputs and tending to the crop and harvesting the crop. For people who are in those highly intensive labour situations, if you think of a peach farmer, a cherry farmer, a broccoli farmer, anyone that needs to transplant plants, they're in a very difficult position right now, because as they make their plans to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in this next month or so, they've got to decide how to do that and how to make sure that they take care of their own people, their own families, their own work families, their own businesses, and at the same time do the very best to make sure that we have the same kind of food we're used to. And I think that's probably an important message, is what we're going to see in summer of this year is we're probably going to see a decent amount of food, but it's going to look different.

MG: What do you what are you variety look different?

MARY ROBINSON: Well, I think the variety could be different if if you're a broccoli farmer and you need 50 guys that usually come in on a temporary farm worker program to be on your farm cutting broccoli and you're not going to have those people, and that's going to impact your ability to grow that crop. So when you go to the grocery store throughout this year, you're probably going to see the effects of those changes in the labour marketplace.

MG: How important are those temporary foreign workers to the agricultural system in this country?

MARY ROBINSON: They're hugely important, and I want to make it clear that Canadian farmers always prefer to hire local people. It's so much easier and it's wonderful to do. But unfortunately, what we have seen is we've seen quite a gap in the availability of labour to agriculture. And in 2017 we brought in fifty nine and a half thousand foreign workers. And these people, a lot of them come back to the same farm year over year. So they're kind of extended family members for a lot of our farm families now, even with bringing in almost 60000 people. We still had a gap of over 15000 positions that went unfilled. So there's all kinds of opportunity for Canadians to get in and have meaningful work in agriculture. And in all of this, we are encouraging in the theme of COVID times, seek out, if you're not in a neighbourhood, an area that has farms or food processors, people that are local to you, opportunities that are local to you and have been displaced from your normal job. Reach out to those people by email or phone. Obviously, don't go to the farms and the plants, but reach out and see if there's opportunities and see how that might look for you, because we are in different times here. We're going to need Canadians to do jobs that traditionally maybe they may not have considered.

MG: Well, and this is something that's playing out right across the country. Have a listen to Pender Dhaliwal, who grows cherries and apples, and Oliver in the Okanagan region of B.C.. He represents hundreds of farmers as the head of the B.C. Fruit Growers Association. Here's how he describes the beginning of what you're talking about, this potential labour crunch due in particular to travel restrictions.

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We get a lot of, you know, lots of workers from the Caribbean region and Mexico. It's not just for workers that we need. It's also a Canadian workforce. We get a lot of youth that come from Quebec every year to help with the harvest. This probably comes once a year in Canada. And timing is everything. And if we don't get the [unintelligible] down thing in the harvesting, you know, we're not going to see the season for another year.

MG: That crunch is a real thing, isn't it, Mary?

MARY ROBINSON: Murray Yeah. And if you consider that Canadian agriculture and agrifood employs 2.3 million Canadians in normal times, that's a huge workforce. And when you consider how the play of how COVID is going to be, maybe reducing those numbers, it means that Canadians are going to have to give more thought to the role they could play in helping us through this time.

MG: For people who are listening, just finally and maybe they're worried about keeping food on their tables in the next few weeks and months, maybe they've been to the grocery store and they saw the scenes that I was describing earlier of the thing that they went to get not being there. Just briefly, what would you say to them?

MARY ROBINSON: I was at the grocery store yesterday washing my hands diligently and I was [cutting] to see as much food as I saw on ourselves.

MG: You were relieved to see as much food as you saw.

MARY ROBINSON: Yes, I found there was full shelves. The things that were missing were things like hand sanitizer and soap and things like that. But I can tell you that in Charlottetown, here are our grocery stores are doing an exceptional job of changing how goods flow to them, because a lot of the shortages that we saw were not a result of the food not being available. It was a matter of every week, the grocery store gets so much product based on what their historical sales and their forecasts are going to be. And all of a sudden, everything changed so dramatically. I think that's why we saw that kind of alarming of those shortages and shelves of those empty spots. But if you look now, I'm really incredibly heartened by how quickly our grocers and our food supply chain have responded to the changes. And I think people should kind of take it easy and give themselves a little bit of breathing space and realise that Canada, we're blessed. We have huge natural resources and we've got an incredibly robust agrifood sector. But we need to make sure that we keep these people in mind and do what we can to help them as all of them make these difficult decisions and get us through this next year.

MG: Mary, great to talk to you and best of luck.

MARY ROBINSON: I appreciate your interest, Matt. Take care.

MG: Mary Robinson is the president of the Canadian Federation of Agriculture, manages a six generation family farm in Albany on beautiful Prince Edward Island. We get now go now from the farm to the factory. Next stop on Canada's food supply chain. The warehouses and production lines that turn berries and canola and pork into packaged goods. The Maple Leaf Heritage Plant in Hamilton, Ontario, puts out thousands of hot dogs and sliced meats every day. Chris Bernardi already is the chief union steward. He operates robots at that plant. Chris, good morning to you.

CHRIS BERNARDI: Good morning, Matt. How are you?

MG: I'm well, thanks. How has the pandemic changed life in your plant?

CHRIS BERNARDI: Well, you know, things have changed drastically. This was all brand new to us, right? This is uncharted territory. And at the very beginning, it was quite confusing and scary. But my employer is being very proactive about this. Our site leader is actually a former veteran, so he's used to being under pressure and he speaks with me quite often. And the union, we usually meet once a week and I've been speaking via email, in person. You know, the employers had many meetings with myself and the other stewards to keep us updated so that we can help share the message and keep people calm.

MG: Can you do things like social distancing? Can you? What practically has changed in a plant? That's a busy place. When we're meant to be apart from each other.

CHRIS BERNARDI: Well, what we've started doing now is we're putting bollards down the hallway to keep traffic separate. In our cafeteria we have tables for four. We actually have mandated that it's only allowed two people at the table now. Because we're in food production, we wear PPE all the time or we're quite safe there. Right. The employer is doing many things to keep us socially distance or making it clear that this is how we have to be. We've changed our sanitation processes. We've hired extra cleaners. You know what we're doing, making sure all the doorknobs, the railings, everything. We have more hand sanitizers everywhere. So they're definitely taking steps to make sure that we as the workers are safe.

MG: Not a job that people can do from home. And yet we're being told by the prime minister and others, stay home if you can. How concerned are the people- you're the chief union steward, the people that you work with, the people that you help represent, how concerned are they about being at work rather than being at home away from other people?

CHRIS BERNARDI: I'd say at first they were very concerned about it because, you know, there's a lot of people that and we work very closely together. But as time's gone on, we've really sent the message out that we are one of the frontlines. And if we don't come to work and we don't produce meat, then our doctors and our families aren't going to eat and they're not going to be able to take care of us. So I'd say more people are becoming determined and happy to come to work because we also know there's going to be an economic problem at the end of this and we hopefully will be able to work throughout the whole time without any layoffs.

MG: You also, though, have to deal with- We've heard this across the economics spectrum that people may not be coming into work as much. People might be falling ill. They may need to go into isolation or quarantine. This could last for weeks or could last for months before life is back to normal. How long can the plant keep running as normal if this crisis continues?

CHRIS BERNARDI: Well, we're taking steps now, we're actively hiring people who have been laid off from their other jobs so that we can keep production running. We're working overtime shifts. We have people volunteering to stay. So as long as we can keep people in the building, we're going to keep producing food. You know what I mean?

MG: What is it like for you to suddenly now be an essential worker during this crisis?

CHRIS BERNARDI: It was sort of eye-opener, you know, when we took these jobs making lunch meat, we didn't think we would be essential workers. But to be honest with you, it's an honour to me. And a lot of my members feel the same way. We are happy to be on the front line and able to make sure that this country is going to keep eating, because that's very important.

MG: Is there. Is there anything in your mind that could shut you down?

CHRIS BERNARDI: The only thing I could really see is if this got out of control even more and we just didn't have the bodies to keep running. You know what I mean? But even then, I don't see that being a problem because we've got people we're hiring where we're making sure that. Myself, all I do is I go to work and come home. Right. We're all self isolating. So, you know that maybe a shortage of PPE, which I've heard about in the media is a concern.

MG: The personal protective equipment.

CHRIS BERNARDI: Yeah, but we are we are well-stocked on that. We're still getting our orders from our suppliers. So, you know, as far as I can see and then, of course, I can't, I don't speak for Maple Leaf, but I can see us running through this and being able to be proactive about it and take the steps needed to avoid a shutdown. You know what I mean?

MG: The same question that I asked Mary, I'll ask you, which is that people might there's a perception of a shortage. And so people go into a grocery store and the thing that they might be used to seeing may not be there. And that was happening in the last couple of weeks. But to Mary's point, people who are working in these stores are working really hard to restock shelves and make people feel good. What would you tell Canadians who are worried that they won't be able to get the food that they're used to, the food that they want in the coming months?

CHRIS BERNARDI: I would say if you don't see your favourite hotdogs or your favourite lunch meat today, they'll be there tomorrow. We are working around the clock to keep the food chain running and that as long as people realise they don't have to panic buy because, you know, like Mary said, we are blessed in Canada. We do have a great food supply. We do have a lot of natural resources. We're going to keep the food chain running. And people just have to realise, instead of buying 10 packages today by one package this week, you know, maybe just two packs of hot dogs, because we will keep those hot dogs and lunchmeat coming.

MG: Chris, good to speak with you and stay well.

CHRIS BERNARDI: Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

MG: Chris Bernardi is the chief union steward and robot operator, it may believe Heritage Plant in Hamilton, Ontario. Our trip down the food supply chain is nearing an end. We've gone from the farm to factories. The last stop is at that grocery store. And when those shelves look empty, that's when the worry can really begin for some consumers. Ellen Goddard is an agricultural economist with the University of Alberta. She's in Edmonton. Ellen, good morning to you.

ELLEN GODDARD: Good morning.

MG: How worried should people be about grocery stores running out of fruits and vegetables and things that people are used to getting on a weekly or daily basis?

ELLEN GODDARD: I guess the question shouldn't be how worried should they be, cause I think you've heard that from the previous speakers. I think the supply is there. I hope it continues to be there for the crops we plant annually. But much of what we eat is it's already in the system. It's the logistics of moving it around. And I think people don't need to worry that there won't be food. They just might need to worry about whether they can get it on Tuesday or Thursday or even sometimes wait a week. If you're particularly I guess, if you're in Edmonton, maybe, but it's really about moving it around more than it is whether it's going to exist or not.

MG: So how can you explain what people might see on some of those empty shelves? You might not be able to buy flour, for example, because a lot of people maybe are baking at home now. They have a bit more time. You can't buy in many stores canned beans or frozen vegetables anymore that they've disappeared. What's behind that?

ELLEN GODDARD: First of all, a lot of people are not eating out. And for most Canadian families, they spend usually about 30 percent of their overall food budget on eating at restaurants. So they're now eating at home, which changes the foods that you buy on a weekly basis quite a bit. And people are looking for things that store. One of the most interesting things to me is that people had stopped buying breakfast cereal to a very great extent. But when this all happened right across North America and Europe, breakfast cereal became hugely more popular because you can put a few boxes of it in the cupboard and it's going to be just fine when you take it out in a week or two to start eating it. Whereas you're a bit more circumscribed, if you had switched to eating bacon and eggs for breakfast, maybe you don't have the capacity to store them and maybe they're not going to last as long as a box of breakfast cereal. So we're changing what we eat and we're definitely getting into more cooking and more food preparation at home. And I think that people are not buying as many prepared meals, for example, from the grocery store. They're thinking that if I buy such and such a package of ground beef, I can probably make four meals out of it and freeze some of them. And that's more cost effective than buying prepared meals that will take up more space and will not go as far as well.

MG: As those habits change, how well prepared our Canadian stores when it comes to getting the stuff the shoppers want. We live in a in a culture where, to your point, you're used to getting things when you want to get them. But now things are different. In our stores, they're working really hard to restock things and they've made adjustments to the supply of food. But what does that say about the operations themselves and how well prepared they are for something like this?

ELLEN GODDARD: I think they're incredibly well-prepared. And we also have a retail sector where many of the big players are truly national in scope and they've got well established supply chains. As as some of your previous speakers said, there was a bit of a shock. I don't think the grocery stores were prepared for people to come in and purchase things quite as quickly as they did. But it theycan adjust and move things around. They just need time to do that. And we may see ebbs and flows. We may always find some things not in the grocery store because people may get an idea that, you know, we may run out of soap at some point and they may panic, buy soap, and then soap might not be there for a couple of days. But it's not that it's not in the system and it's not that it can't be moved around. It's a matter of the stores and the management having the time to figure out the most effective way to do it. But associated with that, there are some people also involved in moving groceries around the country. So we have to hope that that workforce is another workforce that doesn't get decimated by this horrible disease because that could put another stumbling block into the system.

MG: We also heard earlier about a potential shortage of temporary foreign workers, migrant workers as a result of border restrictions. What impact, from your perspective, would that have on Canada's food supply?

ELLEN GODDARD: That's huge. I totally agree with Mary when she said that we are, our system is, dependent on temporary foreign workers at both the processing level at some times as well as at the primary production level. And it's super dependent at harvest time because once they're there, they need to be harvested. It's a really time sensitive thing and obviously planting is important as well. So, yes. And I think the government has recognised that. And I think that they are making appropriate decisions now to allow more foreign workers in. However, we have to recognise that the logistics are changing for those people as well. They, even if they've been coming for years, they're not going to be allowed to come if they happen to have evidence of being sick and once they're here, there's another additional cost for the industry in terms of them needing to be quarantined for two weeks, like anybody else would be when they get here. So they some of these things are going to add costs to the system and it has to be paid for by somebody.

MG: At to Mary's point, though, I mean, we have skyrocketing unemployment in this country. Could that change how people think of those jobs?

ELLEN GODDARD: Yes, but will it? I am, unfortunately, in a place where there's quite a bit of unemployment and I don't know how people are going to think. I know that part of the resistance in thinking about working in a non familiar field may be actual fear about whether the employer is going to take appropriate precautions. I know people are getting worried about leaving their house. So it's one thing to maybe go into a workplace that you're familiar with. It's quite another to head out and start to work with a bunch of new people in a new environment. So we have to recognise that people are scared. And that will affect their willingness to take on employment in new sectors.

MG: People are scared about a number of things. One of the things again, this is what we started out talking about is just whether the supply of food is going to be there. It's encouraging to hear from all of these different sectors. People seem very positive. They seem to believe that that supply is not threatened. And you believe that too.

ELLEN GODDARD: I definitely believe this supply is not threatened. However, it's not it's not perfect, the system. And if costs go up, we do have to worry about some vulnerable people in our populations. We do have food insecure populations right throughout the country at a certain level and certainly in places like the north and they can't absorb increases in costs. So there are going to have to be policies put in place to protect vulnerable people as costs go up. But I do think that as long as the border stays open and our product flows back and forth to the United States, our supply chains are going to be very secure. Seems like that's a priority for our government.

MG: You also might find more people cooking at home. And as you said, that could change how people operate and how people live their lives.

ELLEN GODDARD: Well, it may have an effect on children because people will be looking for things to entertain their children and they may grow up to be more food literate than some of our generations over the past few years who have never done anything but put food in a microwave. So it may be very interesting to see how that all plays out.

MG: Ellen, great to speak with you and stay well. Thank you.

ELLEN GODDARD: Thank you.

MG: Ellen Goddard is an agricultural economist with the University of Alberta. We reached her in Edmonton. A lot of uncertainty out there right now. I know you have a lot of questions and we have questions, too. Tomorrow, we are going to have a little bit of help in trying to answer those questions. Dr. Allison McGeer is one of this country's leading voices on infectious disease outbreaks. She was with us at the very beginning of this. It seems like years ago, but it was really just a couple of months ago when she was here in the studio with me. She's going to be on the phone tomorrow to answer some of your questions. If you have something that you need a clear answer on when it comes to this virus, how it affects us, how we can protect ourselves, get in touch. You can email us thecurrent@cbc.cai or tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. You can also post your questions on our Facebook page to search for CBC Radio The Current. We will do our best to get to as many of them as we can when Dr. Allison McGeer joins me tomorrow to answer your questions about the Corona virus, she's here after the nine o'clock news. Well, coming up in about 90 seconds, a conversation with Stephen Lewis. As a humanitarian, he spent years drawing attention to the HIV AIDS crisis. We will talk today about COVID-19, what he thinks of this response here in Canada abroad. And, of course, he has a real focus on the continent of Africa. We'll talk about what he's concerned about when it comes to the pandemic sweeping through that continent. Stephen Lewis is coming up in just about 90 seconds time. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. Stick around.

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World will survive COVID-19 only if 'swift action' taken to help Africa, UN humanitarian says, Appalachian spring

Guests: Stephen Lewis, Jeff Beecher

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. South Africans will soon be under countrywide lockdown as that government tries to prevent a further spike in COVID-19 cases. Thus far, the virus has spread across Africa has been relatively limited. That is expected to change soon. And experts warn that the continent's health systems and citizens will be in grave danger when it does spread. Stephen Lewis is the co-director of AIDS Free World. He served as the U.N. Secretary-General's special envoy for HIV AIDS in Africa from 2001 through 2006. Stephen Lewis, good morning.

STEPHEN LEWIS: Good morning, Matt.

MG: How are you doing in the midst of all of this?

STEPHEN LEWIS: Well, like most people, I think, who are required to stay at home, I am at home. I've been lucky. Matt, I've worked from home for a number of years. So this isn't as disruptive to life as it might otherwise be. But, you know, roiling beneath the surface, there is the anxiety that I'm sure everyone feels.

MG: What are you most anxious about?

STEPHEN LEWIS: Most anxious about the spread here in in Canada and the desperate need for medical equipment and supplies in order to reduce the possibility of a of a wholesale disaster.

MG: You have been involved in in public life here at home with the Ontario NDP as Canada's ambassador to the U.N. under former Prime Minister Brian Mulroney. You have worked in global health for a long time as well. If you take a look at what's happening in this country, what stands out to you about how Canada and Canada's leadership has responded to this crisis?

STEPHEN LEWIS: Well, relative to other countries, I think we've responded reasonably well, although late, it's always surprising to me how much time it takes to rally a government to respond to a palpable crisis. But I think that the responses is building, that the legislation that was passed in the early hours of this morning will help enormously within the economy. And I hope particularly that the workers who have lost their jobs and the unemployed will find some source of support from the government directly and soon. And I think that on the medical front, we've had a really sterling response. The health system has rallied well and feels overwhelmed and apprehensive about what's coming. But on balance, you know, I think we've done reasonably well, certainly compared to the United States remarkably well.

MG: Well, I want to talk about the United States in just a moment. Are you encouraged by the fact that - we've heard this from the prime minister. We've heard it from health public health officials as well - this directive to believe in science. And that sounds obvious to a lot of people, but it isn't in these times. Are you encouraged by that?

STEPHEN LEWIS: Totally encouraged because science is everything in a situation like this as it has been around infectious diseases like HIV and tuberculosis and Ebola. Science is always the benchmark against which you measure interventions. And I think that science would be everywhere predominant if it weren't for the lunacy of the president of the United States.

MG: Strong language there. Strong language in saying lunacy. What do you make of what's happening in the United States?

STEPHEN LEWIS: Well, I think that the state governors and many of the municipal mayors are showing much more strength of character and understanding and sense of urgency than the White House is showing. And I use the word lunacy advisedly, because I think you've got to be slightly out of control to be able to advocate the kinds of things he advocates and the kinds of things he says. And it's very discombobulating to the population as a whole and a direct confrontation with the urgency of science.

MG: What worries you the most about what's happening south the border?

STEPHEN LEWIS: Well, I'm worried most if I may say so, about New York. I think what's going on in New York state is a nightmare. And what's going on in the city itself is almost beyond belief. It, I think, stems as most people have sent from the density of the population. But it's really unnerving that it has emerged as the epicentre of the coronavirus in the United States. And it may well be in a week or two, it will be the epicentre internationally.

MG: What are the countries that are getting this right, do you think? Because, yes, the United States stands at large in terms of things that could go wrong or are already going wrong. What about the countries that are getting this?

STEPHEN LEWIS: Well, I get the impression that the Nordics are working very hard at putting in place all of the strictures we think are important from handwashing to physical distancing to reinforcing and shoring up the medical infrastructure of the whole apparatus of response, responding to people. I think if you look at the list of countries and the number of cases, Canada is number 15. And that suggests that there are 14 countries worse off than we are, many of them of varying populations, of course. But I have a feeling that a couple of the European Union countries like Belgium and Switzerland, although they have a significant number of cases that they're working very hard and effectively and the Nordic certainly are doing so.

MG: Let's talk about what's happening on the continent. South Africa, as I mentioned, has a country wide lockdown and starts tomorrow. That's the largest lockdown on the continent. What do you make of that effort?

STEPHEN LEWIS: Well, I think that President Ramaphosa is showing the appropriate leadership in a country that is really terrifyingly at risk. It's a country where very large numbers of people live packed together in townships and then in slums. It's a country where over seven million people are living with HIV and hundreds of thousands are living with tuberculosis, a lung disease, which therefore makes people particularly immune suppressed, given the likelihood that the coronavirus attacks the respiratory system, it's a country with a 29 percent unemployment rate. It's a country which has been the sort of centre of social and economic reforms and activity on the continent of Africa. It's a country terribly at risk. And I think they understand it. And they're doing everything in their power to contain the impact of the virus.

MG: You've said that other countries on the continent need to wake up. What do you mean by that?

STEPHEN LEWIS: I mean roughly what Dr. Tedros, the director general of the World Health organisation, said, what he said that that test, test, test. And he said Africa prepare for the worst. There are 44 out of the - 46 out of the 54 countries in Africa now have evidence of the coronavirus and the numbers of cases are rising as we talk, Matt. There are twenty five hundred cases on the continent. There are now 700 in South Africa alone, over 700. The countries are beginning to close their borders. They're beginning to shut their schools. They're beginning to try very hard to to do the kinds of things that could minimise the impact. But it's slow. And I don't know how to convey this, Matt. It's so it's so frustrating. But the health systems of Africa are so fragile. The numbers of medical professionals and health care workers are so limited. The availability of medical equipment to the laboratory, equipment of testing kits and ventilators and all of this is so minimal on the continent that if the Corona virus hits in a brutal and ferocious way, as is predicted by some, then we will experience again the kind of devastation that we saw during the height of the AIDS pandemic in the late 90s and early thousands. And it is just a nightmare.

MG: You said that it's also beyond even the health care system, just the ability to do what we're being told constantly, which is to wash our hands in some parts of the continent. How difficult is that?

STEPHEN LEWIS: In some parts of the continent, it's darn near impossible because there isn't the availability of water. There are countries like Zimbabwe where water is available only in a limited way in certain hours of the day. The social distancing. How do you do social distancing in a huge slum like Kibera outside Nairobi or in a township that you have outside Cape Town in South Africa? How do you do social distance seed in the famous Soweto, where people live so closely together. So the things we take for granted in our western community are not easily adapted to Africa. The strength of Africa that I cannot emphasize this strongly enough. The strength of Africa lies at community level. The tremendous capacity of communities as they have dealt with HIV and tuberculosis and Ebola and measles. Over the years, the strength of the continent is the way in which the community comes together and reinforces each other and works with each other. But boy, they are going to be put to the test.

MG: You called Dr. Tedros, the head of the W.H.O., a singular figure. What strikes you about him?

STEPHEN LEWIS: I love his calm intelligence. I like the way he puts things firmly and thoughtfully. He doesn't exaggerate. She's not given to hyperbole. He's. He's measured. And so he conveys facts in a way that makes you feel confident in their authenticity and legitimacy. And that's what we need. It's kind of the it's the exponent of science. I knew Dr. Tedros when he was minister of health in Ethiopia and he conducted himself in the same way. We're really very lucky to have him there, particularly when the African continent is at risk.

MG: Do you worry, in the work that you've done, do you worry that the effects of COVID-19 could reverse some of the gains made against HIV AIDS, some of the progress that has been made on the continent when it comes to dealing with other things that could pull people back?

STEPHEN LEWIS: Yes, I really do. Matt. And I mean, I'm not alone. I'm not an expert in these things. I look at them and watch them with my colleagues and we read everything that comes across our computer. But it's noticeable that yesterday, which was World TB Day. There were a number of strong statements made by organisations in the TB world making the case that the work on TB, which, by the way, has been pretty inadequate even to now may be further compromised by the ravages of COVID-19 if it takes hold. And that's absolutely the same for HIV. I don't know what we're going to do about the struggle around funding, about the inclination of governments to take money away from the infectious diseases and turn it to the coronavirus. I mean, absolutely understandable. But it puts all of the infectious disease areas in a untenable position. The African Union has just asked the G20 to give them 150 billion dollars as an emergency intervention. And that's what it's going to need. But I think at the grass roots level in many countries in Africa, there is a great anxiety that the progress that has been made will be compromised.

MG: You've talked about that grassroots level a couple of times. What needs to be done to better support those who are on the ground in those communities?

STEPHEN LEWIS: I think the support has to come to the community based organizations of which there there is a profusion and they're easily identified within the countries. They are the elements, the strong elements of civil society. And if it's possible to give them just some theme by way of resources, if it's possible to give them something by way of equipment, they will use it wonderfully well. I mean, that's what one learns from Africa. I understand that there's ethnic violence. I understand that there's conflict. But in many, many countries, you remember, there are 54 countries on the continent. In many, many countries you have working at community level this inordinate strength and generosity of spirit and determination. And that's what will get them through this kind of thing. Matt, we're going to watch this unfold on the African continent, as you said at the outset. It's been fairly limited thus far, but the idea of over 700 cases this morning in South Africa is a very significant sign of peril. And we've got to give that country as much support as possible.

MG: We in this world are facing this breathtaking challenge. And there are many of us who have never seen anything like this before and are trying to wrap our heads around how quickly things have changed and not even when this is going to end, but what will wake up to tomorrow. How do you see us pulling together to address this challenge?

STEPHEN LEWIS: Well, you put it correctly. One of the truths, surely, is that you don't know what will be tomorrow. The rapidity with which this virus is moving is really beyond belief. And I think the only way you get through it - it sounds so trite and such a truism, the business of we're all in this together. Stay well, take care. Wash your hands, keep your physical distance. But I'm really overwhelmed. And I must say, the CBC is doing an excellent job of this of the way in which the community people, the key people in communities and just everybody from every walk of life are coming forward to to support each other and to do acts of notable kindness, and to support particularly the frontline workers whose lives are quite demonstrably on the line. You got a good feeling about Canada in that context. That said, this is not only a country of moderation, but it's a country of social consistency. And I just hope our politicians will pick up the spirit and support it in every possible way.

MG: I guess it's easy to feel overwhelmed by something like this and it's easy to feel people need whether they turn the news off or whether they ration what they're listening to or what they're paying attention to, because you don't know how much of this you can take. What would you say to people who feel- you've seen crises you have seen, to your point, strength come out of communities perhaps where we wouldn't have seen that strength. People have risen to a challenge. What would you say to people who are listening, who feel that sense of anxiety, that feel that overwhelming is that you talked about at the beginning?

STEPHEN LEWIS: You know, Matt, I feel I think probably just as overwhelmed as everyone else. This is the most obsessive preoccupation in life. You can't move, listen, read, watch. except the coronavirus. It's absolutely staggering. I've just never seen anything like it. I remember the last time we talked about it. We talked about climate change.

MG: Indeed.

STEPHEN LEWIS: And it is as though climate change has disappeared from the map when it remains one of the great risks of the planet. So I guess my feeling is that there is great strength to be drawn from the collective determination that this thing can be beaten, if to use the phrase, we flatten the curve. And that as people understand that there is nothing more important than to observe the protocols, that the science, the medical officers of health, et cetera, have asked us to observe that we'll get through this. I don't doubt we will. It's just that we don't want to leave carnage behind.

MG: Are you taking care of yourself in the midst of this?

STEPHEN LEWIS: I think not particularly different from anyone else. I'm just working quietly in my workroom. It's my wife and I haven't ventured out of the house for I don't know how many days now. And we have a daughter and a grandson who live with us. And we're all keeping appropriate measures of distance and hand-washing and cleanliness and occasionally watching serials on television so that we can calm our nerves.

MG: I hope it doesn't sound trite, but I do mean it. Be well and take care of yourself.

STEPHEN LEWIS: You see, that's the perfect demonstration of Canadiana. I'll do so. Thank you so much, Matt. And so to you.

MG: Stephen Lewis is the co-director of AIDS Free World. He is the former U.N. secretary general, special envoy for HIV AIDS in Africa. Former Canadian ambassador to the United Nations.

[Music]

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One, my name's Matt Galloway, was out yesterday, saw signs drawn by kids on people's windows, and they just kept saying, we got this, we got this, we got this. It's an encouraging message to hear from Stephen Lewis and from the kids across this country as well. Well, look who's here.

TP: I've been drawing my own signs at home, getting very little praise for it. I'm not going to lie to you.

MG: May be an artist of a different kind. It's Tom Powers the host of Q. How are you?

TP: Not too bad. I've been making macaroni collages, you know, just have my day bag of chips, video game.

MG: Lots of free time, apparently. Also spending it, looking at things online. Have you seen this thing? It's been passed around the country. It's this video on YouTube of the Toronto Symphony Orchestra playing. I don't understand how they did this. It looks like they're playing in quarantine.

TP: Yes, I should say I'm being glib. We've been keeping our eye on kind of the trending art stories in this country right now. Obviously, artists across this country are finding such an amazing way to stay creative during this time. And in the world of orchestral music that involves the community, itself is a large community of musicians onstage playing together. So they found a way, members of the Toronto Symphony Orchestra to play Aaron Copeland's piece, Appalachian Spring Together. So I caught up with Jeffrey Beecher. He's the principal double bassist in the orchestra. Frankly, Matt, he was just getting kind of tired of being by himself, you know, hard to play orchestral music on your own. It's kind of like doing a monologue with five or six people. So he got together with his friends over the line. And it's pretty amazing if you've seen this.

MG: It is incredible.

TP: I did get to the bottom of how they did it. So we're about to find out. Take a listen to this.

SOUNDCLIP

TP: Hi, Jeff. Welcome to the show.

JEFF BEECHER: Hi. Great to be with you, Tom. Thanks for having me.

TP: Nice to have you. Before we talk about this beautiful recording. How are you? How are you holding up in general?

JEFF BEECHER: You know, if I'm honest, my EQ is pinging back and forth a lot. And and I mean that not just my base levels, but my emotional quotient. These are really, really challenging times. And the things that I'm personally feeling and my family's feeling and my family's musicians seem to be feeling, it's such a difficult time to remain both optimistic and to feel connected, obviously, to one another.

TP: It's such a hard time, as you mentioned, to feel optimistic if you're connected with one another. But you've found a connection through this piece of music that you guys made online. I want to play a little bit of it. Take a listen to this one.

SOUNDCLIP

[Classic music]

TP: 29 members performing Aaron Copeland's Appalachian Spring. Jeffrey Beecher's is one of the folks behind this. And Jeff, it's hard enough to get five people in sync on a conference call. And you've thrown music and instruments and tempo and dynamics into the mix. How did you pull this off?

JEFF BEECHER: Well, you know, the synchronisation of heartbeats really is the key to anything, whether it's a conference call or in this case, making music in social distancing. The key about it was creating what we call in the industry a click track, which means basically a pulse that everyone who is performing either in quarantine or even on the same stage or studio can align all of what they're doing individually together. And creating that as well, so it's not just a sort of cold beat, but that actually it has the warmth of the other sound. So I layered all of this score into a program on my computer, which took about a half a day to do, sent that out to all my amazing colleagues who then instantly went to their phones in their home studios and in selfie video mode, just recorded as if we were playing together. And then I received all those videos and spent three days in the editing cave and, you know, 9:00 am Sunday morning had a finished product to share with the world.

STEPHEN LEWIS: It's such a beautiful video. And it definitely shows that, you know, the connectedness that we can still have with one another, even though we're far apart. I was curious, though, as to why you chose this particular piece of music, Appalachian Spring.

JEFF BEECHER: The history behind the piece. It speaks to the moment that we're in, which is the profound questions you ask when you're dealing with, for example, the grief of a World War, which this piece was written just around. And how do you imagine a prosperous future when you're grieving millions of deaths. It just speaks to the moment that we're in a really profound way.

TP: I think that watching this video gave me a sense of connectedness, gave me a sense of normalcy. But I have to imagine for you who spends their career not only performing for crowds, but next to other musicians, very, very close to other musicians. It must've done something for you to be able to make this recording as well.

JEFF BEECHER: I miss my colleagues. You know, there are vital nutrients that shared live music as it only live music can provide. And at the same time, we're all dealing with this existential crisis of how do we help 7.8 billion friends in crisis and that feeling of powerlessness and deflation in quarantine. How does anyone respond, let alone an orchestra, which, you know, it's an art form which feeds off and amplifies sociability. So the thought that's been going through my head a lot is I call the service, which is like ask not what your symphony can do, but what you can do for a symphony. And honestly, the guides of this are astronauts. You know, what is Chris Hadfield doing? You know, when he's out in space, he's playing volley. You know, he's learning how to be connected to a planet he's not on, but is doing such great service on our behalf. So, you know, musicians and people and culture we're in the humanity service industry, really. And I feel like in making this video as little sleep and little food and my girlfriend, thankfully, was feeding me some frozen pizza every now and then. You know, this was a- I was on a mission. And I feel so grateful to hear comments that are, you know, a mum who's at home with her daughter in crisis. And the daughter is just struggling to cope as anyone of any age is. And the mum is replying with this cathartic experience that the daughter, because her music teacher sent her that video, is suddenly turning tears into a hug. And the [unintelligible] that just means everything to me.

TP: Jeffrey, I can't begin to thank you enough for talking to us today. And thank you so much for your work.

JEFF BEECHER: Thanks for your time, Tom.

MG: It is such an amazing thing.

TP: It really is.

MG: If you haven't seen it, trust me, it's beautiful.

TP: It's such a beautiful piece of music to begin with and to see them sort of in their homes. I think what really struck me about why everything he said is that, and I said this to you earlier, orchestral music is community music. And not just that. It's music for the community, but they themselves are a community. And when they're away from one another, they literally can't play that music anymore. So to know that they still can over technology and see what it meant to them is just as beautiful as the music itself.

MG: Tom, thank you very much.

TP: Matt Galloway, thank you so much for having me. Take care yourself.

MG: You're going to come back.

TP: I'll be back. I got Jeremy Dutcher, I got film picks. I'm going to be wearing a different sweater. Everything's going to happen today.

MG: All of that coming up on The Current. Thank you, Tom Power.

TP: See you Matt.

MG: Should hear a little bit more of the Toronto Symphony Orchestra performing Aaron Copland's Appalachian Spring from their homes.

SOUNDCLIP

[Classic music]

MG: Kind of needed that this morning, that's the Toronto Symphony Orchestra performing from their homes Aaron Copland's Appalachian Spring. We'll let that take us to the news. This is The Current on CBC Radio One.

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Considering universal basic income as an option for Canadians who need financial relief

Guests: Rebecca Zirk, Jagmeet Singh, Sean Fraser

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

[Song]

MG: Well, as governments around the world try to counter the economic toll of this pandemic, it seems like just about any remedy is up for consideration. Massive corporate bailouts, looser qualifications for benefits, mortgage relief and the ideas are coming from some unusual places. Britney Spears posted to her 23 million Instagram followers a call for virtual togetherness, for a redistribution of wealth. It is unclear whether the Canadian government will take specific advice from Britney Spears. Finance Minister Bill Morneau has said he's not ruling anything out, though. For many Canadians, there is still far too much uncertainty about what comes next in the face of unemployment and business closures. Rebecca Zirk is a self-employed hairstylist from Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. And up until just a few weeks ago, she was happily working, all the while looking forward to her first child. Now, the salon that she's been working at has temporarily closed its doors, leaving her without income. Rebecca. Good morning.

REBECCA ZIRK: Good morning. Thank you for having me.

MG: Thanks for joining us. How are you doing?

REBECCA ZIRK: I'm doing well. I'm healthy. And that's the important part, right?

MG: It certainly is. Tell me a little bit about your work situation. You were technically self-employed when this salon shut down. What does that mean for you in terms of what you could get in benefits from the government?

REBECCA ZIRK: So what that means is I was renting a space to perform my hair services and this was my first year self-employed, so I'm a little new to navigating the whole thing. But I wasn't eligible for regular EI benefits when my salon was mandated to close by the Saskatchewan government. So what that meant for me was while other people who were employed could apply for regular EI or regular sick leave, lock out leave. I have to wait until the new program is announced in the beginning of April. Yes.

MG: The beginning of April.

REBECCA ZIRK: Yes.

MG: It's the 25th of March. That's a long time to wait. I mean, it doesn't seem like a long time. But in the midst of this uncertainty, it certainly is. What's it been like to try and get that financial assistance from the government and navigate that path?

REBECCA ZIRK: I really haven't gotten much information aside from what I can access online. So it is quite uncertain. You know, I've, you know, out of preventative measures, been quarantining since the middle of March. So really, I'm almost three weeks without income at this point. And month end is coming. Bills are coming, you know. So it's quite uncertain. What I've done my reading about, from what I've heard, the new relief is that I could be eligible for up to 900 dollars every two weeks for up to fifteen weeks. But particulars 'could be' eligible for 'up to'. So that leaves a whole lot of wiggle room that I really have no idea, no number to bank on.

MG: What are some of the expenses that you worried most of recovering covering right now? As you said, the end of the month is hurtling towards us.

REBECCA ZIRK: Well, first of all, I'm concerned about my personal rent. So keeping my home and my roof above my head. But I'm also concerned about the rent that I'm not able to waive to keep my business so that I can have a job to come back to at the end of this.

MG: And you mentioned that $900 every couple of weeks that you might be eligible up to $900 you might be eligible for. What sort of financial assistance would you need to get by on a monthly basis? How much do you pay, for example, in rent?

REBECCA ZIRK: So at my current home, I split my rent with my husband and I cover my share rent entirely, so for one person, you know, I'd say I'd need at least 1800-1900 a month to cover all of my bills and make sure I can eat at the same time.

MG: Wow. When you do the maths, how does that strike you? Where you left in terms of just trying to process everything that's happening right now?

REBECCA ZIRK: Well it honestly leaves me worried. You know, I thankfully have wonderful family who are willing to help and we have some savings. But really, how long can that last? So my concern is that this won't just be a couple weeks without work. This will be months without work. And then even if I qualify for the full amount of the relief fund, I'm still short, almost a couple hundred dollars.

MG: What's the situation with your husband in terms of work, if I might ask?

REBECCA ZIRK: So actually, prior to this, he had an economic layoff, so he had been laid off before this. So he had been navigating the EI system before, before mandated quarantine for a lot of faces, which is already a bit of a hassle enough. So his income was cut in half. He's now found the only work that he could take right now, which is in a grocery store, which concerns me because then he's exposing himself to a bunch of public people and then coming home to me, who is considered immunocompromised. But it's been a stressful, very stressful.

MG: I can imagine. It sounds really stressful. What do you think the government could do better for people in your situation? In the wee small hours, pass this $82 billion financial aid package for people across the country. But what else could the government do do you think?

REBECCA ZIRK: Ideally in the short term, I would really like to see more relief for small business owners and entrepreneurs, because really, that is my main concern. You know, I can work through my savings. I can work through this to get my basic expenses paid. You know, I could maybe defer some bills. I could do things like that. But it's having a job to come back to. It's making sure I have that economic security for the end of this. Right. Not just keeping my basic roof over my head and groceries in my fridge, but making sure I actually can provide an income for myself after this is all said and done.

MG: And this is supposed to be a really exciting time to have a baby on the way as well.

REBECCA ZIRK: Yes. Yes. It is supposed to be very exciting. And while it still is, you know, trying to keep on the positive side of it, but it's also concerning that this is going to take a long time for us to recover from economically, financially. I'm now quite concerned about the future. You know, much less even the childhood that I'd be able to provide.

MG: I wish you the best of luck. Stay healthy. As you said, that's the most important thing. But you have a lot on your plate as well. Rebecca. Thanks for talking to us.

REBECCA ZIRK: Thank you so much. You stay healthy as well.

MG: I will, thank you. Rebecca Zirk is in Saskatoon trying to figure out how to make ends meet, given the new economic reality that she and many others find themselves in. Across this country, thousands of people like Rebecca are laid off over the past few weeks. The leader of the NDP, Jagmeet Singh, has called on the federal government to provide direct cash transfers to all Canadians before rent comes due for many of them on the 1st of April. That's not long away. Jagmeet Singh is on the line with us now. Jagmeet Singh, good morning.

JAGMEET SINGH: Hey, Mr. Galloway, it's an honour to be on the show and congrats again on the show.

MG: It's great to have you. You've had a long night. I know, sitting in the House of Commons. We appreciate you staying up to speak with us. You were just listening to Rebecca. What do you make of her story?

JAGMEET SINGH: Well, she's exactly why we need to immediately and direct financial assistance to people, to all Canadians. And it should be monthly until we get past this crisis. We've been calling for. We made recent recommendations around. This is it. Her story is exactly why we need to have a universal basic income. There's many people that are falling through the cracks. People need help right away. People can't afford to wait until April, in some cases May, before they get help through the proposals that were good measures when the government announced. But simply it's too slow. And with a million people applying to EI, the problem with any of these systems is it's just very unwieldy to figure out who applies and who is approved and who gets qualified. We send out support to everyone. We can tax back the amount and recover the amount that was not needed by some people and those who need to get it right away. It's simply the quickest way to give relief to Canadians. And that's what's really urgent right now is the timeliness of getting that help.

MG: So let's walk through the proposals, $2000 to every single Canadian. Many Canadians are finding themselves in real financial straits. Many other Canadians might have savings. Maybe they're able to work from home. They don't. Necessarily need the money. Why send that check to every Canadian?

JAGMEET SINGH: Well, two things. One is that it is the quickest way to ensure that everyone gets it. The time and the systems that are required to identify who should get payment, who shouldn't, is so unwieldy for 36 million people. On top of that, the other mechanism, which is an application based mechanism, is that people have to apply for the sheer processing of that. I remember meeting the minister in the hallway, with the good two meters in between us, and he mentioned that normally in a regular year there is about 20,000 applications a day. The last week there was 200,00. He thinks the system simply is not going to handle that. And even with the new proposal, which is a good mechanism for good proposal, it will still take far too long to get the help to people.

MG: How would it take? How long would it take, though, to set up a new program to ensure that the checks could go out? That's a new government program. That takes time to set up, too, doesn't it?

JAGMEET SINGH: Well, the benefit of this program is that it's not going to be application based. So you don't to receive applications, you don't have to have all the unwillingness of receiving, processing and qualifying. Who gets it, who doesn't. It will be difficult. And I don't have all the answers. I think that we've seen during this time period countries coming up with new and innovative ways to help people out. And I think we need to be ready to innovate. But I'm confident that we can figure out a way to give everybody support right now. And the beauty of this is that, yes, there will be some people who get support that don't need it, but it's not like we can't recover that amount by making sure that it's tax back next year. And in fairness, there might be some people who will earn money once we get past this crisis. And right now, we're still in need. And afterwards might not or will not a qualified and they'll pay back the amount that they received in their taxation. But well, we know we know is at this point very similar to what the World Health organisation doctor mentioned, that it's not about perfection is about speed when it comes to crises. And right now, we're not responding quick enough. And this is a suggestion and a way for us to respond more quickly to get people to help they need.

MG: The other issue is the wage subsidy. Right now, the government is saying that they will provide a 10 percent wage subsidy to eligible small businesses as part of this relief package. You're saying that it should be something at least as high as 75 percent. Why that much higher?

JAGMEET SINGH: Well, we looked around the world to see examples of what countries are doing. And we see some really amazing things that other countries have suggested. We looked at Denmark, which is doing 75 percent. UK is doing 80 percent. Sweden is doing 90 percent. So we looked at and then we spoke with small businesses and they've made it really clear that the 10 percent is simply not going to do much. It's not going to help people. And we know that there's an immediate crisis that we need to get through. And if I could put in a word for the importance of social distancing. Please, everybody stay at home and limit contact with others. Once you get past the initial health care crisis, we're going to have the next crisis of getting people back to work. And in that, getting people back to work, the more we do now to prevent people from losing their jobs in the first place. One, it will help the small businesses who if they have to rehire and retrain, it's just a colossal effort to do that. For people who want to get back to work if they have a job to go back to, it just makes their life so much easier. So wage subsidies are one of the best ways to directly tie supports to businesses, to jobs. A company will not get the wage subsidy if they're not paying a wage to employees. So it's a direct way to keep jobs there for people so that when this crisis is we are past it, we can then work on getting people back to work.

MG: What are you most worried about when it comes to the crisis that people like Rebecca are facing?

JAGMEET SINGH: On this, I think about what people are going through in terms of their month to month. Hey, we know that so many Canadians are living paycheque to paycheque. We know that so many people do not have savings. And I think about the crisis in terms of housing and the impact on housing. Right now we've got a health care crisis. It could be coupled with a homelessness crisis of epic proportions. Imagine all the millions of Canadians that applied for EI who don't get the help they need and then can't make rent. And what if they're evicted? What if they lose their housing? Not only would we have a moral problem that people have lost their housing, but we also have a public health problem because the whole purpose of the law [unintelligible] the spread of an illness, well, people lose it housing. They're going to end up somewhere. Do they end up with a relative on the couch of a friend's house? Where we're going to see is another explosion in people having contact with those that they were trying to avoid contact. The best or the only way you can self isolate is if you have a place to call home. So it's really a combination of a moral responsibility, a homelessness and a housing issue coupled with a public health emergency that's brewing if we don't do something about it.

MG: Jagmeet Singh, good to speak with you. Thank you.

JAGMEET SINGH: My pleasure. Thank you.

MG: Jagmeet Singh is the leader of the NDP, the Liberal minority government has been releasing more information every day about their plans to respond to this crisis. In the wee small hours of this morning, the $82 billion aid package was passed through the House of Commons. Sean Fraser is the Liberal MP for Central Nova and the Parliamentary Secretary to Finance Minister Bill Morneau. Sean Fraser. Good morning to you.

SEAN FRASER: Thanks so much for having me on the show.

MG: You've been listening. Jagmeet Singh saying says the Liberals aren't doing enough to help Canadians through this crisis and in particular aren't acting quick enough to help those who are seeing the first of April approach. And who're wondering how they're going to pay the rent. What would you say to him and to those who have those worries?

SEAN FRASER: Certainly. And look, thanks very much for the question. Before I address the the economic side of this this public health emergency. I think it's important that we remember that our top priority is protecting the health and safety of Canadians. I note in particular that some of the measures that are included in the legislation that was just passed will allow us to get money where it's needed to allow our public health system to increase its capacity to meet the needs that we expect are going to continue to increase. But that being said, you're quite right to point out the fact that there is a very serious economic side, economic consequences that are tied to this outbreak. What we've done is put together the first phase of a plan that was really designed with the guiding principle that that households are too big to fail and designed to get money into the pockets of families who need it as quickly as possible. So I appreciate some of the suggestions that Mr. Singh has made, but we are focussing our approach essentially on people like Rebecca, who was on your show earlier. We've gone through a process to consider different kinds of approaches and we've identified what we believe is the quickest way to get money into people's hands who've suffered an interruption to their income.

MG: Let me stop you there. Let me stop you there, because, Rebecca, you heard her. She says that the rent is due on the 1st of April. She has no idea how she's going to pay the other bills, including the rent. She's not sure whether she qualifies. It would be up to $900 every two weeks. And she doesn't think that's going to close the gap. What would you say specifically to her?

SEAN FRASER: So specifically to Rebecca, I want to let her know that I'm getting calls in my constituency office from a number of people who are in a very similar position. What we've done is design a program for people who've lost their income or revenue, who don't typically qualify for EI that we will provide income support for. If you are someone who's been working and has lost your income that you rely on, we are going to find a way to fill that gap as best as we possibly can. In addition to the essentially replacement for EI for self-employed people or other workers who don't qualify for EI, we've also made a decision to increase a Canada child benefit and the GST rebate and put other measures in place, like a moratorium on collection efforts of student loans. So if you have monthly payments that you would normally make, you don't have to be making them.

MG: What is the what is it what does that mean for her on the 1st of April when her rent is due?

SEAN FRASER: Do we expect that the initial benefit is going to be falling within a few weeks. So it may not be- I mean, the 1st of April is only a few days away, but we expect within a couple of weeks we're actually going to see the initial benefits flowing to self-employed individuals who have lost their income.

MG: I apologize for interrupting, but we're short on time, there is a lot to get through. Do you believe that landlords should take relief from rent? Should they stop rent? Should they, for the 1st of April if these benefits aren't going to come for a few weeks, should they put a pause in collecting that rent?

SEAN FRASER: Yes, I think in most cases they should. And in fact, in most cases it's actually going to be in their interest to do so. One of the difficulties we have, although we have put new measures in place to extend mortgage relief to individuals, we recognise that that puts renters in a jam. If those benefits aren't passed on as some of the rules around the relationship between landlords and tenants are managed by provinces, I know in my home province of Nova Scotia, the provincial government has essentially banned evictions for people who've lost income over this public health emergency. That's the kind of thing that we need to do to ensure that people can not only put food on their tables, but maintain a roof over their heads, which is really the top priority in terms of the economic response to this operation.

MG: The other issue is the question of wage subsidies. Right now, the federal government is offering 10 percent wage subsidies to qualifying small businesses. Denmark, as you heard, the government is guaranteeing 75 percent of lost wages for workers. In the U.K., It's 80 percent. In Sweden, it's up to 90 percent. Why is 10 percent enough?

SEAN FRASER: So this is a really important distinction. One of the things that I think is essential to point out is Denmark and Sweden have made the decision to support individuals by funnelling support to their employers, with the hope that that money reaches the individuals. We've decided to take a different approach and support individuals directly. One of the reasons this is important. Is a wage subsidy will only make its way to employees or workers if they're actually kept on the payroll. What we're seeing due to sometimes orders of provincial government. Employers are forced to shut down and lay off workers. And if the wage subsidy goes directly to those employers, there's no guarantee that it actually reaches families directly. That's why we've put in new programs that are going to ensure that the money arrives directly to families so they can afford the cost of basic necessities. That said, we do recognise that in addition to the support for individuals and families, 10 percent wage subsidy is going to help in the short term. We're currently looking at other measures as well that to ensure that we can preserve the economic networks that exist within Canadian communities. And we will do what we need to to make sure that as many businesses as possible are able to weather the storm.

MG: So would you then consider the direct transfer like the one that Jagmeet Singh is proposing. If you can't funnel the money directly through the employers, would you consider that $2000 check that basic, universal basic income, or something like that, that Jagmeet Singh is proposing?

SEAN FRASER: Well, right now, everything is on the table. We're looking at every option. What we've determined in the short term is we want to make sure people, that we target in so far as it's possible, folks who had an interruption to their income. There may be people who have significant incomes that don't need that $2000 a month that are still working, in fact. But we are looking at what options may be possible. One of the challenges to set up a brand new universal basic income and I do have respect for my my colleague, Mr. Singh. But when we looked at what options we had to get money out the door quickly be passed that we've identified allows us to actually deliver benefits to people in a more expeditious way than creating a new universal basic income would have. That being said, we're examining every possible option to ensure that families, businesses, workers have the support they need in this time of really unprecedented difficulty as we deal with the public health emergency represented by COVID-19.

MG: Sean Fraser, good to speak with you about. This is a lot to get through. I appreciate you joining us this morning. Thank you.

SEAN FRASER: Of course. A pleasure. Thank you.

MG: Sean Fraser, the Liberal MP for Central Nova. He's the parliamentary secretary to the finance minister, Bill Morneau.

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MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway, would be curious to hear from people who find themselves like Rebecca in that financial pinch. The 1st of April is looming. How are you coping with that? You can email us through the Web site, go to cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the contact link. If you're lucky enough to still be working, maybe you're working from home right now. Perhaps you're doing video calls. Maybe you can relate to this.

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ANDREW ECKEL: Hi, I'm Andrew Eckel. I'm a software engineer and musician living in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and I'm working from home because of the coronavirus. This past week, I had my first video conference with my co-workers and I was thinking how much I didn't want them to see my messy bedroom and I also didn't want to clean it. So I came up with this idea. I really didn't think it was going to work, but I kept thinking how funny it would be if it did. So I went on the Internet. I searched for images of luxury apartments, high end luxury apartments. I just picked out the first one I found. And I printed it out really big under nine pieces of paper that I taped together with masking tape and hung right behind my chair. So when I called in to the video conference, all my co-workers could see was me and the backdrop. The meeting lasted for 90 minutes. And at the very end of it, I said, hold on, everybody, before you go, I want to show you what I made over the weekend. And they said, oh, that would be great. We could use a distraction right now. What did you make? And I said, oh, it's back here by the window. And I tapped on the picture of a window behind me, which, of course, made the entire backdrop shake. And at that point, everybody flipped out. I picked up the webcam and I showed them what my actual room looks like. And it was only then that they admitted they had all been quietly wondering why I was in such a fancy place. They were just too polite to ask. So it's a weird time right now. I miss my co-workers, I miss my friends, and there's something else that I miss.

[Song: Bummer Car]

ANDREW ECKEL: Tyres playing in the background right now is a song that I wrote. It's called Bummer Car. And, you know, I was planning on performing this song at multiple venues in the Boston area coming up. But like everyone else's, my shows are cancelled. So I'm left with nowhere to show off my music. Except, of course, on the excellent program, The Current CBC Radio. It's a weird time for everybody right now, and I'm happy if I made a few people laugh.

[Song: Bummer Car]

Find your car and text Andrew if you've come up with any life hacks, fun tricks to make your work from home experiences work for you. You can let us know. Tweet us @TheCurrentCBC, find us on Facebook or email us from the web site cbc.ca/thecurrent. A lot of people are working from home. A lot of people aren't working. They find themselves at home. They have more time and there is pressure to be productive. We'll talk about that coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current. Stay with us.

[Song: Bummer Car]

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'Hustle porn' was a pandemic before COVID-19, panelist says, the death of Manu Dibango

Guests: Nick Zarzycki, Amanda Armstrong, Andrew Dickson

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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Blow winds and crack your cheeks, rage blow. Cataracts and hurricanoes spout, till you have drenched our steeples, drowned the cocks. You sulphurous thought executing fires. Vaunt Carriers of oak cleaving thunderbolts. Singe my white head. And thou, all shaking thunder, strike flat the thick rotundity of the world. Crack nature's molds, all germens spill at once. That makes ingrateful man.

MG: A monologue from King Lear. Shakespeare's masterpiece might be top of mind right now for social media users who find themselves in safe self-isolation. And there is a tweet that's making the rounds claiming that the Bard wrote King Lear while he was in quarantine. No pressure then. The message is certainly clear, though. Use your time wisely. Before we get to whether that kind of pressure is actually necessary at a time like this, let's clear up whether the claim is even true. Andrew Dickson is a culture writer and the author of The Globe Guide to Shakespeare joins us from Self-isolation in London, England. Andrew, hello.

ANDREW DICKSON: Hi there, Matt how are you?

MG: Well, I'm okay. How is isolation treating you?

ANDREW DICKSON: Well, it's okay so far, although in London it is absolutely beautiful spring weather. It's kind of a bit melancholy. So I keep looking out the window and wishing I could be frolicking in the park, but not quite yet.

MG: Did Shakespeare actually write King Lear while in quarantine?

ANDREW DICKSON: Well, this is the question of all questions. And if we're being really pernickety and I'm putting my kind of British Shakespeare hat on and we don't know this for certain and we never know pretty much when Shakespeare actually writes his plays, you know, he would love to have a diary entry saying, you know, I don't know. First of July 16, 06, start of work on King Lear, quite hard going. And we never have this. What we have to do is try and get a lot of different pieces of evidence. And we know that the play was performed at the end of 1606 for the Christmas season. And it seems pretty likely from other pieces of evidence that it will have been written perhaps not too long beforehand. So, yes, it's a decent guess. I wouldn't stake the farm on it, but I think it looks pretty likely that it was definitely written in 1606. And one thing we know about sixty-six is that there was a huge plague outbreak in London. So, you know, piecing these different pieces of evidence together, we can sort of say, well, it looks perhaps fairly likely that Shakespeare did use his quarantine time to write the greatest tragedy of all time.

m: So drop us into that time machine. What was London like in 1606?

ANDREW DICKSON: Well, it was it was pretty grim. And, you know, plague, bubonic plague. There were intermittent outbreaks. You know, as we know, for hundreds and hundreds of years across Europe and in Shakespeare's London, it was it was a regular occurrence. And almost the worst thing was, you know, I mentioned the lovely spring weather here in London right at the moment. And that was also a sign of danger for Shakespeare's contemporaries because bubonic plague seemed to increase during the spring and summer months. So and as a as a theatre maker and as a writer, Shakespeare would have been looking at the nice weather, thinking, great, it's the summer theatre season about to start, but oh, my gosh, are the theatres going to be closed? And because of plague outbreaks, because what happened as soon as there was a plague outbreak, the authorities basically shut off public spaces. That meant theatres. They prevented gatherings. People were quarantined in their own homes. And so if we sort of imagine in that time machine, Shakespeare locked away in his house in the city of London, he would have, I mean, if he'd looked out the window, it would have been grim. The streets had been pretty much deserted. There would have been probably red crosses scrawled on the doors of different houses if there had been plague in the area. The air would have been noisy with the sound of church bells for endless funerals ringing. I mean, it would've been pretty, pretty dismal to be in London at that point. And yes. And there's an argument then to be said, well, perhaps that does sort of seep into the world of play, that sense of chaos, which is kind of at the heart of King Lear. You know, it's kind of it possible. It is possible to imagine it as a kind of plague text in that way.

MG: I'll try to remember where there's a- is there a direct reference to the plague in the play?

ANDREW DICKSON: Well, there are a few references. And King Lear himself makes reference to one of his daughters, Goneril, one of the evil daughters you remember in the play. And he basically calls her a kind of plague. So, you know, one of the symptoms of bubonic plague, this horrible disease is that you you've got your body was sort of pockmarked with these sores that would appear everywhere. And he literally turns to her and says, you know, you are a kind of sore creeping on my body. And so, yes, there are references there. And in a way, the interesting thing about Shakespeare is that there aren't actually that many sort of explicit direct references to plague in the text. And it's almost as if it's a slightly unlucky thing for him, because, of course, you know, the moment plague actually did appear in real life, it meant that you'll see it is going to close. And maybe he and his colleagues were a little bit superstitious about mentioning it directly. But I think you can definitely sort of, as it were, pull the camera back and say, you know, that sort of atmosphere in King Lear, the sense of chaos and destruction of a kind of world being turned upside down, of the political establishment crumbling, all the things that you sort of thought were true and secure, turning out not to be secure. I think in that sense, yes, there's. Me something of that kind of atmosphere, the sense of a world gone to rack and ruin. And, you know, whether it's Shakespeare's way of writing about plague or not, we'll never be sure. But looking at it again from this sort of perspective and I don't know what can I say? I've been thinking a lot about this in the past few days.

MG: Sure. You're using your time.

ANDREW DICKSON: Yeah, exactly.

MG: Before I let you go, what do you make of this tweet? I mean, it's got all over the place. Rosanne Cash was one of the people who was tweeting it, saying just a reminder, when Shakespeare was quarantined because of the plague, he wrote King Lear. Why do you think that that has gained so much traction?

ANDREW DICKSON: Well, it's interesting, isn't it, we've been responding to quarantine and all sorts of ways. And, you know, for all that, I love Shakespeare. I know I show a huge fan of that tweet, because as you were hinting a moment ago, it's a kind of shaming tweet, isn't it? It's like, you know, what's the rest of us as sort of, you know, trying to kind of learn to cook over meals properly.

MG: And figure out what to do with all those beans.

ANDREW DICKSON: Yes, exactly. And, you know, watching endless Tik-Tok videos or, you know, doing yoga in different rooms like I was doing this morning, you know, it's like I think there's that sense of, you know, well, why aren't we achieving more? And really, when I've written about this and the Shakespeare angle, what I was trying to say really was that actually in some way Shakespeare would not have seen quarantine through the plague as a positive experience for all that, you know, that the world of play might be infected, as it were, by the plague. And, you know, plague was a really bad experience for him and a very difficult thing for him to live with. He didn't know if, when his theatre was going to be reopened, if he'd be able to get back, you know, whether he'll see his actor colleagues again. So I think, you know, the idea that it's a kind of creative holiday. I mean, most of us, you know, it'll be great if we learn Spanish or how to play the guitar properly or indeed write a play if we want to write a play. But I think most of us are just trying to get through each day only.

MG: Andrew, good luck in your quarantine.

ANDREW DICKSON: Thanks so much, Matt.

MG: Andrew Dickson is a culture writer and the author of The Globe Guide to Shakespeare.

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With all the resources we have available, it's easier than ever to start something online. You can create an online course, start a consulting company or sell your service. You can find a product and sell online. You can start a podcast or a blog or, you know, sell your art, whatever. The possibilities are endless. It's a really exciting time to start something you've always wanted to.

MG: YouTuber Kate Volman thinks right now is a great time to be making plans. Lots and lots and lots of plans. Let's admit it though. Most of us will not be writing the next King Lear over the coming weeks or months. Even so, there is pressure, as Andrew was saying, to use this downtime to accomplish something big. Raises the question, is that a good kind of pressure? Two guests join me now to talk about this. Amanda Armstrong is a social entrepreneur, a career coach, small business consultant and speaker. And Nick Zarzycki is a freelance journalist and tennis writer. Good morning to you both.

NICK ZARZYCKI: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Amanda, you have a number of different job titles that I kind of rattled through there. Are you on team productive when it comes to what we should be doing in the time that we have?

AMANDA ARMSTRONG: Definitely. I would say I'm on team for adaptive. But there's one key thing to note. Being a social entrepreneur means that everything that you do, your work, your livelihood, your career is focussed on positively impacting the world and the lives of other people. So when we're talking about being productive, I'm talking about being productive with things that are going to help other people and are going to help the world.

MG: I'll come back to that in a moment. Nick, what about you? Should we be spending this time in a valuable way? Do you feel pressure to do that?

NICK ZARZYCKI: No. I'm the person on this panel, on this productivity panel who is anti-productivity. I don't think productivity is good right now.

MG: Why not?

NICK ZARZYCKI: Because it's so exhausting. I like how Andrew kind of put it bluntly. He said Shakespeare probably would not have seen the pop flag as a positive thing. I think people who see the plague as like a commercial opportunity are horrible people and that they should calm down and like try sleeping more.

MG: Horrible people.

NICK ZARZYCKI: Yes. Yes. Unless you're a frontline pandemic worker or you're a manufacturing masks or you're doing like really lifesaving work. I think trying to profit here right now is not good.

MG: Amanda, what do you do? I mean, I mentioned that the range of things in the introduction. Tell us about the variety of work that you do.

AMANDA ARMSTRONG: So the work that I do, I work with young women. I do two things. I help young women find their dream job. So I help them with their job search, mainly students, recent grads and women in their early 20s. And I also work with small business owners and female entrepreneurs just starting out. And I think what's really important to note is, well, two things. First of all, it really depends on your financial situation. If you have rent pay, if you have children, if you have expenses, I think being productive is, you know, it's a way to pay the bills. But the second thing is that when you're doing something that you love, when you're doing something that you're passionate about and when you're doing work, that is making a really big impact on people's lives, now in the time of a crisis and a pandemic is not necessarily the time to slow down because people need social entrepreneurs now more than ever.

MG: Does it feel like a hustle to you if you love what you're doing?

AMANDA ARMSTRONG: No. That's the thing. I mean, listen, I'm a full time entrepreneur. So, yes, it's a hustle, it's a grind that I experience stress. But the big thing I want to highlight is for me, getting eight hours of sleep is productivity, going for a nice walk in productivity, taking a bath, reading a book, cooking, cleaning, doing yoga. To me, those things are also a part of productivity.

MG: Nick, what defines productivity to you? What keeps you busy on the day to day?

NICK ZARZYCKI: That list that Amanda just rattled off is awesome. I would start with that list. Yes, I feel like we're arguing the same point here. I actually think what we're talking about here with this Shakespeare tweet and like the whole hustle mentality during this pandemic, we're talking about hustle culture and hustle porn and ways to motivate ourselves. I actually think this idea that, you know, being in the middle of a pandemic is an opportunity or a positive thing is actually kind of sweet. I just said that I hate it, but I also think you can find a positive way to spin what's going on to you then go for it. That's awesome. But don't feel shamed into doing something that you don't think is productive. Once again unless you're literally saving lives, I don't think overextending yourself under sleeping, overworking yourself is a particularly responsible thing to do right now.

MG: Do you think that there is a lot of - and I want to come back to this idea of hustle porn, as you said, but do you think that there's a lot of productivity shaming happening right now, Nick, given the fact that people, some people, it's not things that they wanted, they're laid off their job or they can't go to work or they need to be home because childcare has evaporated and the kids are out of school and they have to be around. Are people being shamed because they're not being productive enough?

NICK ZARZYCKI: I don't know whether they're being shamed now, but I do know that before this crisis hit, we were in a pandemic of hustle culture and overwork. This is something that's widely acknowledged. The W.H.O. declared overwork and overextension to be a disease this year. It's literally like the feeling of procrastination and inability to focus and lack of motivation that you feel. These are symptoms of overwork that the W.H.O. literally has listed. So I think we've been at a pandemic of overwork and productivity shaming for a long time and now might be a good opportunity to re-evaluate.

MG: Amanda, what do you make of that? Have we been in this pandemic of productivity shaming people feeling like they need to constantly be doing more and more and more.

AMANDA ARMSTRONG: I mean, I. So I definitely think that in the corporate world, there are a lot of people that are hustling a little too hard to the point where it's affecting their health, their mental health, their family relationships, et cetera. And I think this is a great opportunity for those people with children now at home to spend quality time with your family and to spend quality time with your kids. Now, do the networks and communities that I'm in, which are a lot of young women and social entrepreneurs, are actually very, very inspirational and supportive. And I don't see any productivity's shaming happening. What I do see is really positive, inspirational, creative things that are developing. A good friend of mine just launched a new initiative to help the frontline health workers. I have another client that's working on launching a podcast. So there's like really cool, creative new things that are going to come out of this entire thing. And I'm really excited and optimistic to see about let's just see all the good that's going to happen in the world because of that.

MG: Nick, you used the phrase hustle porn. This is a term that was coined by the co-founder of Reddit, Alexis Ohanian. Have a listen to how he describes it.

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ALEXIS OHANIAN: In this age of social media. We have this ability to to kind of weaponize the sort of normal like this sort of bragging about the hustle, the grind that we would do maybe already in the office talking about how we just you know, we're up to four o'clock, back to back all week long.

Interviewer: Elon Musk talking about sleeping on the factory floor.

ALEXIS OHANIAN: Yes. And there is, and then look in any demanding job, especially as an entrepreneur. Yeah. There are absolutely periods of time where you were going all, in sleeping on the floor to get something done on deadline. But the idea that you can sustain this every single day, 365 is absurd.

MG: Nick, what does that phrase mean to you? Hustle porn. And how do you see it playing out?

NICK ZARZYCKI: I think people who genuinely have to hustle to survive, you know, poor, vulnerable people, marginalized people. That's one thing. But if you are a privileged, comfortable person who isn't fighting to survive, if you are the CEO of Tesla, if you're building a rocket ships for fun, if you're a billionaire, I don't think you should be working 120 hour weeks and setting that kind of pace for your employees. I think that is toxic. I think it's psychopathic. Actually, I think hustle porn is the kind of messaging and ephemera that that kind of psychopathic impulse throws off. It's the means you see on Twitter that chain you and guilt you into productivity rather than inspiring and encourage you to do it.

MG: What's the effect of that? Because often you'll run into people and you'll say, hey, how are you doing, not now, but in perhaps, as they say, the before time, people will say, how are you doing? And they'll say, oh, I'm busy. I'm really, really busy. What is the effect of us on that?

NICK ZARZYCKI: The before time that's so scary, Matt.

MG: That it comes from the Mad Max. It's a Mad Max reference, but yes.

NICK ZARZYCKI: God, I mean, I think for me, the ground zero for hustle porn and hustler culture is like when you brag about the number of hours you work. It's weird because people who actually work super demanding lifesaving jobs, again, paramedics, frontline workers, when they have to work really long hours, they do. You don't usually find them bragging about it. They're exhausted. They're they don't see like being under slept and being sleep deprived is like a good thing that they're worried about that. People who brag about how busy they are and the number of hours they work a week usually don't have anything else to brag about. They work kind of these- it's usually people at Start-Up and like people working in finance to like don't have anything tangible that they're producing. So they need something to brag about. The interesting thing is that study after study shows that people who brag about working long hours and usually are overestimating the number of hours they're working. The U.S. Department of Labour Statistics in 2011 published a study that showed that people who report working 75 hour weeks are on average lying by about 25 hours. So usually working closer to 50 hours a week.

MG: Amanda, do you see anything toxic in that larger cultural issue that Nick is referencing?

AMANDA ARMSTRONG: I mean, I went to business school and then I decided to get into the non-profit world and the social enterprise world. My whole thing is if you're going to brag about how many hours you've worked, if you're going to brag about how you were up till 4am, start bragging about what impact are you making on your customer and suppliers, what impact are you making on your employees? What impact are you making on the environment and the well-being of others? Like brag about good thing. Brag about the impact that you're making in the world, not about what you were up to plan because you were just making money for yourself. That's my opinion about what people should be bragging about.

MG: What advice would you give then to people right now who are feeling pressure? Maybe it's from social media, but maybe it's also real financial pressure. We've been talking about the fact that it's coming up to the 1st of April and people don't know how they're going to pay the rent. What would you say to them about the pressure that they feel in this weird time that we're in to be really productive? Amanda?

AMANDA ARMSTRONG: Yes. So a couple of things. First of all, first and foremost, self-care, always your physical health, your mental health, your well-being. You cannot be productive and successful if you are not healthy and happy and taking care of yourself. The second thing I would say is even with what is going on, I am a very optimistic person. But I do believe there is lots of opportunity out there if we use our creative minds. I worked in sales for the past four years, so I teach women how to make money and how to come up with business models in small businesses using their gifts and their talents and their skill. So I, you know, actually journaled about this. And you can follow me on Instagram as well to learn more. It's @athari.careercoaching. And I think there's a lot of opportunity out there for us to not only bring in some income, but also to do good in the world at the same time.

MG: Nick, what would you say to somebody who is trying to use this time wisely?

NICK ZARZYCKI: I would just say, ask yourself whether you are in a position where you're fighting for your survival if you aren't in a position where you have to hustle to literally survive, now might be the time to actually scale down those side hustles, scale down the amount of overwork that you're doing, and think about literally everything else in your life. As Amanda mentioned, try to get some sleep, take care of yourself, rearrange the furniture in your house, the furniture in your house right now, it's set up for non-quarantine time. Maybe now's the time to, like, remodel things and like re-evaluate the way you're living. Literally anything but starting a side project that might fizzle and like ruin another hobby for you. You know what I mean?

MG: It's good to talk to you both. Thank you. And good luck.

AMANDA ARMSTRONG: Thank you.

Amanda Armstrong is a social entrepreneur, a career coach, small business consultant. Nick Zarzycki is a freelance journalist and a tennis writer. They're both in Toronto.

[Music]

MG: Feel good music for uncertain times. The music of Manu Dibango. Musicians around the world were influenced by what he mixed up jazz, funk, West African styles of music. Manu Dibango died yesterday after contracting COVID-19. He was 86 years old. Tom Power, host is here to talk about his music and his legacy. Good morning to you.

TOM POWER: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What made the style of Manu Dibango, people have called in revolutionary.

TOM POWER: Manu Dibango is a really interesting figure in the development of music all around the world, which is which is different in the development of what we call, unfortunately, call world music, but essentially a lot. He moved to France from Cameroon in the 1950s, became part of a really seminal group called African Jazz, which was mixing up American jazz at the time, which is still kind of new, a lot of Cuban rhythms and Congolese rhythms. And he put them all together in a style that started to be very rhythmical, very melodic at the same time and really encapsulate a lot of different cultures at once.

MG: That tune that we were just playing. So Mikasa was a big, big thing in the 1970s.

TOM POWER: Huge thing in the 1970s. First it was a big hit in all around Europe and, you know, all around northern Africa. The big moment happened when an American DJ named David Mancuso found this record in in a kind of a bin. The dream. The dream of a record collector.

MG: The thing we hunt for.

TOM POWER: To find it in a bin. Instead of playing it at loft parties. It started getting played on the radio. It became the first African LP to chart on the Billboard charts and more importantly, started inspiring disco. I mean, disco as we know it. You look at Cool in the Gang's Jungle Boogie. You look at even you know, you look at the BeeGees Jive talking all really, really influenced by Soul Makossa. So a really big part of early disco, which of course, we're still feeling to this day with bands like The Weekend and Death Punk Comes from a Soul Makossa.

MG: So the story is that a decade later, some of the lyrics from that tune show up in tune by Michael Jackson. What was that? What was the connection?

TOM POWER: Do you know that part of the song? [sings]Ma Masse Ma Massa Ma Makossa.

MG: Yes.

TOM POWER: That's from Soul Makossa. So he, Michael Jackson, loves that part of the song. Puts it in his song. It gets he gets sued by Manu Dibango, get settled, settled out of court. But essentially, Michael Jackson didn't credit him the right way. Manu Dibango, in addition to his incredible music, was also a great champion for artists rights, especially around any kind of appropriation around West African or North African music into Western music and American music. Then Rihana uses it in Don't Stop the Music, she ends up sampling Michael Jackson in that. Another lawsuit happens there. Of course, it's already been settled out of court for Michael Jackson. That doesn't really go anywhere. My favourite thing about it is that I was in Iqaluit not that long ago, in Nunavut, and I was watching this really great band called Josh Q and the Trade-offs, you know, a great musician. And, you know, in northern Canada, they were jamming. They were doing like, you know, in an improv jam. And all the sudden they just break into Soul Makossa. You know, these great Inuk musicians just going Ma Masse Ma Massa Ma Makossa. You know, it's with us forever. Those rhythms are kind of with us forever.

MG: Music is - it's a cliché, but it is that extension cord that connects us all. Universal language.

TOM POWER: A universal language, they call it, Matt.

MG: We have a little bit more of Manu Dibango. Let's have a listen.

[Music]

MG: Tom Power, thank you very much.

TOM POWER: Matt Galloway Thank you for having me. And we're going to talk about some more music later on in the show.

MG: I look forward to. Thank you.

[Music]

MG: Manu Dibango, a tune called Abele Dance, Manu Dibango Legend of music, died yesterday after contracting the Coronavirus. My name's Matt Galloway. The CBC News is next. We're back in about six minutes time on this extended edition of The Current. Coming up, I'll speak with an E.R. doctor who has a Zen approach to his job. He is fresh off a night shift in the emergency room. Dr. James Maskalyk is coming up next on The Current. Stay with us.

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Meditation is helping this ER doctor cope with the rising stress of fighting COVID-19

Guests: Jamaes Maskalyk

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to an extended edition of The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Still to come, indigenous tenor Jeremy Dutcher, his most recent tour has been cancelled, so he streamed a performance from his living room. His interview with Tom Power is coming up. But first, finding Zen in the emergency room.

[Music: Theme]

MG: For weeks, hospitals in Canada have been warning that they could quickly become overwhelmed with patients suffering from COVID-19. In Italy and in China, despite taking all the precautions, many health care workers have been infected and some have died. One of the people still facing that risk is Dr. James Maskalyk. He is an emergency physician at St. Michael's Hospital in downtown Toronto and a member of Medicins Sans Frontieres. And over the years, he's developed strategies to cope with the scariest parts of his job. He joins us now. Doctor, good morning.

JAMES MASKALYK: Hi, Matt.

MG: You were in the E.R. last night. What did you see?

JAMES MASKALYK: Well, you know, yesterday was the first day we everyone who is front facing, meaning who works with the public or patients now was wearing masks and face shields for those of us who are in the rooms with patients. And we've been, you know, knowing that this was coming. We've you know, we've lived through SARS, but we've been- I'm kind of enjoying every day in [unintelligible] because we now miss a chance to see our friends faces to use non-verbal communication with our patients, and at that time, a rise in anxiety that we are just about perhaps going to see some of this surge that they've seen in other places. So, you know, amidst that kind of worry that increased in, anxiety isn't the right word, preparedness, from our side, the usual, you know, St. Mike's downtown Toronto things some people who are afraid they have the disease, some people who maybe did had it, some traumas, overdoses. So, you know, life continues apace, although in a much more muted version than you and I remember from even, you know, a month ago.

MG: Talk about that moment of waiting. You wrote a post on Facebook that really captured in some ways what it's like in that room. And you talked about the moment in a trauma room after you get a call from an ambulance that's on its way. What happens in that moment and how does that compare to the moment we're in right now?

JAMES MASKALYK: I guess there's continence. And what I mean by that is what I reference is when, you know, you've received word of a critically injured patient and you know what that means in terms of how smoothly the team must operate. How interpolated all of the processes are that must continue to function. And they often do, but not always. So there's this moment when you're there with the team after you brief them on what you expect and what you're all capable of, when the time just kind of yaws and stretches and that, you know, minutes seems like 10 because you're envisioning all these different possible outcomes. And that's kind of what the half breath that we're holding in here in the E.R. and in places like it in Toronto and throughout Canada. We think we're prepared. We have no idea what the reality is going to be. And so we're just looking to each other for cues about how to stay focussed and present and really in this job, because people really, really need it.

MG: There's a big fear that Canadian hospitals, like the one that you work in, could perhaps be overwhelmed and that people like you will have to make some tough, some terrible choices about who to care for and how to do that. Are you worried about that?

JAMES MASKALYK: Yes. And I think, definitely, you know, I have noticed in the last couple days in Toronto, I don't know if you've noticed the same thing. There's more people out and - I'm not going to blame them, you know, but they really have our life in their hands. And I mean that by like, please wash them. Please don't do that. We need some- we need to space this out. We need to space this out. And so there is that anxiety, because what happens is we get pockets of infection and those swell to, you know, large enough numbers. Then we start to get the sickest people coming to us in the E.R. And those people sometimes need ventilators. And which means that we- that's the highest risk procedure for us. We now, we have a strategy where we watch, we double cover doctors now. Even at night and we watch you each other, put the protective gear on. And yesterday, I was practicing with my friend Amy. And it wasn't long before she she said, you're contaminated. Now, what does that mean when we're contaminated? Well, yeah, we get sick, sure. But we have five of sick. Then you're flexing doctors from other parts of the hospital. All of those things that your mother needed or your daughter needed. That's, those become delayed. And when the fabric of what makes us Canadian starts to fray, then I think that we have our questions about who we are and what's next becomes more, not desperate, but more serious. So that's our priority.

MG: This is what you prepare for in many ways in the work that you've done, not just here, but the work that you've done in in Sudan and in Ethiopia elsewhere has been about building up capacity, building up a system that's ready for whatever it takes. Are we ready for what might be coming our way?

JAMES MASKALYK: Yes, I think we are. I think we are. Especially if we continue to do what we've been doing, which is mitigating the worst of this and letting us move from what is like a backwards stance where we're trying to, you know, see the- catch the sickest. And, you know, I include that the people who have no homes to go and self isolate, who often live on the street or in shelters, the most vulnerable people. Now, what happens is if that slows down and we're given an opportunity to kind of space that out, then we get to move into an aggressive stance and then we increase our testing in, maybe even in people's homes until we catch each and every infection and are able to epidemiologically track it. So we can start to meter this out and resume as quickly as possible to the community that we so much gives us reasons to live.

MG: We all cope with what we're facing and then what we're in the middle of in different ways. And one of the things that you've been doing, on Facebook, is leading, when you get out of the E.R. or perhaps on your way in, is leading these guided meditations. Tell me about why you started to do that.

JAMES MASKALYK: Well, two reasons. You know, and one of it is very founded in what I learned with MSF is there is the medicine and then there is also truth-telling. Now, the medicine is an individual act, in the truth-telling is an act for other people and a trust that they will join you in the work. So I came to it because there's a lot of misinformation floating around, even from people who I trusted, like they get repeat numbers, they repeat, you know, most rumours. So in that echo chamber of Facebook can become very shrill and full of fear and anxiety. So I want to want to speak to that on a daily basis from inside a lived experience. And then I want to remind people that they only lived experience we really have is what we are going through in a moment by moment basis. So that's when you get into the meditation, which is really creating a space just perfect size for us, or perfect space that fits us where we're recognise that the anxieties of the future, a future that never will arrive, and the past, that will never again recur. There's can be a window where we're living. And in that window, we already know everything that we need to know about getting what we need. So that's the conceit. And that's the presupposition. So I do that as a as an opportunity to remind myself to sit and to help others create that space.

MG: How does that help you in the work that you're doing?

JAMES MASKALYK: You know, I came to it when I was back from Sudan, my first mission, and I was really just trying to put myself back together and had a figure ground reversal where that world seemed normal and this world seemed like it didn't fit me. But what's happened since - so that's been you know, it's been more than 10 years now - well, what's happened since is that it's just been the place where kindness has started to emerge from. And when you have the job that I do, that is what matters most. You know, last night there was a man who came in and he was very angry person, sadly. And he didn't change throughout his stay in the E.R. And he was actually quite, he was abusive. He was abusive to the nurses and when I was called to reassess him, to me, the security guards. And, you know, there's a chance to to draw a hard line and say, you know, get out of here. That's no way to treat anybody. But what I couldn't help but see is that he's just a little boy. Someone hurt him when he was a little boy. And he doesn't feel like he is safe to let love in. And that type of window is what I found with my practise. And it's allowed me to get medicine from a different way, with kindness. And that just means my choices are more true. People get my indecision, not indecision, but the difficulty of the decision. And when you're explaining to someone why maybe you can't test them for COVID-19, they feel it a little bit. They actually care for them. And it just makes your medicine that much more effective.

JAMES MASKALYK: Can you give us an example of this? We don't have time for a full 60 Minutes sit, but can you lead me in some of the people who were listening at home? These are really anxious times. And so can you lead us through what you do. We have a little chime that our directors kick you when we have to stop, but just talk us through how we would begin in something like this.

JAMES MASKALYK: Sure. You bet. Well, I'm going to say that there are just kind of three things that you need premeditation. Firstly, obviously anyone driving this isn't for you. There's only one meditation when you're driving and it's looking. So if you're at home, there's kind of three things that you do to, you know, start a sitting practise. And one is just commit to the time. You set a timer. You agree this is when you're going to do it. And that commitment is the most important thing. And everything springs from it, really. And the second is you assume a position that is relaxed but alert because the intention is to pay attention. That's it. And the third is choose something in your experience that is reliable enough for you to pay attention to it. So in our case here today, we'll each use something that is often there with us and that's going to be the breath. So whenever you're ready, let's begin.

[Pause]

[Sound: Bell rings]

JAMES MASKALYK: So at the last bits of that bell fade, there is a chance for us to reappear. In this instance, we're going to begin by paying attention to our breathing. So wherever you are, take a inhale. And after that's finished, the out, breath follows automatically. And as you begin your next inhale or the next series of respirations, you'll notice an aspect of the breath as it enters your body, and there's typically five kind of things to notice in your breath. The first bit of the inhalation is the cool air entering your nostril. The second feeling of your chest feeling full and stretching like a balloon. The third is once that in breath is stopped, just that stretch. You're left with just that feeling of being full. And then the outbreath, when that begins the collapse of that feeling, the relaxation feeling, and that's where we're going to lean into until the last and final part of the breath, end of the exhale, it's quiet. And the cycle begins anew. Feeling of the breath entering your nose, chest stretching like a balloon. The pause. Feeling full. Slowly relax and release. The muscles expand. Quiet. You stay with that cycle and you be mindful of the sensation in your body. You get a sense of that space that the wind and the air that is moving through you that may be kind of far away sometimes when you're caught into the news cycle too far worrying about futures, or the past that you'd come from and wondering if it will be repeated again. So as you can and for the duration of the sit you've decided to do, stay with that.

MG: What does that give you when you do that? And this is really helpful to a lot of people, and I think it's the kind of thing that people might look at from a distance and then they do it in this difficult time and they think maybe it helps slow them down. What is it? What is just sitting and paying attention to your breath do when it comes to stress, do you think?

JAMES MASKALYK: You know it gives you space. It gives you space when you thought there was none. And, you know, like I started my my last book, Life in the Ground Floor with Frankl, I took a quote, a tribute to Frankl, says Viktor Frankl. It says, In between stimulus and response, there is a space. And in that space is our true power and our ability to grow. And what I think what that means in times like this is this is a collective breath. This is a collective breath. This is a 'all' space and we are deciding who we meet on the other side of it. Now that we've seen maybe even the natural world flourish, you know, traumas are down, overdoses are down. Who are we meeting on the other side of this? How come we may have space to create ourselves anew? And as you practise, as your meditation deepens in time and commitment, then you carry that space around you in more and more situations. And when that person yelled at you in the E.R. that you're a goof or whatever it is you say, yes, sir, I'm so ready to help you. If you ever, if this isn't the time for you, come back and you leave that experience with none of the automatic kind of taint that may have followed you into it previously. So there is that chance for space to grow.

MG: Just before I let you go. You're right there on the frontlines. And there's been a lot of gratitude from people like yourself and the work that you're doing in the hospitals, in the E.R.s and what you're going to be facing. What is it like to see that?

JAMES MASKALYK: I mean, I'm just moved on a day to day basis by that constant offering of support. And if I could just say one thing to the people listening in Toronto and places like it and throughout Canada, this is early middle game. We if we'd mail this, if we'd lock this down, we record caucus, something remarkable. The people of Toronto and the people of Canada have accomplished something remarkable. And it's not us. It's truly them. And I know people are afraid. And I know they're anxious. But if they stay dedicated to this, then what we see in the other side will be truly beautiful.

MG: James, it's great to talk to you. I appreciate it. And good luck and be well in the work that you're doing. And thank you.

JAMES MASKALYK: Thanks, Matt. Okay. Bye.

MG: Dr. James Muscala is an emergency physician at St. Michael's Hospital in Toronto and the author of a couple of great books, Six Months in Sudan and Life on the Ground Floor. If you have questions about the virus and your health, we want to hear from you tomorrow. I'll be speaking with Dr. Alison McGeer. She's one of this country's leading voices on infectious diseases. We'll try and get some answers to as many of your questions as we can. You can e-mail us thecurrent@cbc.ca You can tweet us @TheCurrentCBC, find us on Facebook. And we'll get some of those answers to you coming up tomorrow after the nine o'clock news.

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MG: Tom Power, the host of Q, is back with us. Hello, Tom.

TP: Hello, Matt. How are you, my friend?

MG: I'm well. How can I miss you when you never leave? It's great to have you here.

TP: I'm sticking around here. I'm going to put a cot about two meters away from you and just have a nap, you know.

MG: Social distancing. Just make sure it's far enough away. These are wild times in your world certainly to cover arts and entertainment because people can't do what they normally do. We can't go out and be entertained. We can't be with a crowd of people in a theatre watching Hamilton. We can't be in a venue watching musicians play. That can really change how we think of music. But there are people doing interesting things to try and create that connection.

TP: Matt, it's really, it's an interesting time for art and culture right now because in some ways we can't go out, as you mentioned, and experience these things together. And in other ways, the things that have been premade for us to see; your Netflixes, Amazon Primes and your films, well, we started to watch them all. We're going to take them all in.

MG: We have some time.

TP: I have a I have a friend of mine who said, well, I just finished Netflix. I did it. I did it. I got it all done. So here's what we did. We got to we got John Semley, who's one of our Q screen panel columnists, in to talk a little bit about, one, how this is affecting the film industry to come. Don't forget, the films are constantly in production. So we film and television is not in production right now. What does that mean for six, eight months from now? We're not going to be seeing any films? What it means for the Cannes Film Festival? What it means for film festivals all around the world? And most importantly, I think at this time, something you can watch that maybe you haven't watched yet. Take a listen.

SOUNDCLIP

TP: Hi, John.

JOHN SEMLEY: Hi, Tom.

TP: The Cannes Film Festival, just announced it will postpone their May dates. Why is that such a big deal?

JOHN SEMLEY: Well, the Cannes Film Festival is generally seen, I think, as the world's most prestigious film event. It also, if you are a film nerd of any stripe, it's sort of the thing that launches the year's festival films and some awards contenders. I mean, a good example was Parasyte from last year, which won the Palme d'Or, the highest prise at Cannes, and sort of went on to collect all kinds of hardware en-route to winning at the Oscars. And you know, it's just something that cinephiles set their watch to. I think the last time there was an interruption like this at Cannes was during the May 1968 riots where they sort of stopped the festival halfway through. So, yes, it's quite a major thing in the world of cinema and culture.

TP: What does that mean for cinema and culture here in Canada?

JOHN SEMLEY: Well, it means that we're going to have to wait awhile to see what the big films are from overseas that are going to be playing here. I mean, generally, Hollywood productions have kind of ground to a halt. A number of productions happening here in Canada have ground to a halt. If you are what is a sometimes called a media worker, which is a category I think I fall into, it's lean time. There's not a lot of work. There's not a lot of films for film writers to review. Won't someone think of the film critics, Tom?

TP: [Laughs] But it is in all seriousness there is, if productions being shut down potentially for months? That means you might have to wait an awful long time for a new season of a television show or a new film to go see. We might just go for months there without any new films?

JOHN SEMLEY: Yes, I mean, some distributors are putting recent films directly onto the i-Tunes store and various streaming services where you can pay $20 to watch them.

TP: Well, Joh, what do you make of that? You know, what do you make of this idea that you can take films that are supposed to be in theatres right now. You're supposed to be getting you know, you're your popcorn, you're nachos, and you're going in to watch it, but instead you get to watch it at home for 20 bucks.

JOHN SEMLEY: Well, I guess what I worry about in the long term, you know, I'm a big fan. I've talked on the Q before about how much the theatrical experience means to me, how much it means to the very idea of cinema itself. You know, I worry that people get acclimatised to watching stuff at home. If/when we ever get out of this Corona virus thing, people might say, well, we don't need the theatres anymore. But, yes, and, you know, I worry that in the long term this will have a sort of deleterious effect on the practise of film going itself.

TP: For now, there is no shortage of things to watch when you're at home. I'm certainly going through it. So while I got you here, I want to get your expertise. I'm going to ask you first for a pick, just a general international pick of something to watch. And then after that, I'm going to ask you for something Canadian, something home-grown. But first, give us an international anything at all, pick to watch while everyone stuck at home.

JOHN SEMLEY: Yes, so I was really into- I kind of lost interest in HBO's Westworld during the second season, but the third season just premiered and I was really kind of blown away from it. It sort of expands the premise, the basic premise of the show, which is about robots in a Western theme park running amuck and sort of build out the larger world in which the first two seasons took place. If you're a fan of shows like Black Mirror, it kind of has a sort of black mirror energy where it's these spooky dystopic sci fi premises all kind of woven into one another. So that is kind of keeping me sane.

MG: That's Tom Power in conversation with the film critic and entertainment writer John Simile. The Current is back in 90 seconds time. And coming then a conversation with Stephen Lewis. We'll speak about this pandemic. What's happening here, but also what's happening abroad. He has his eyes, as he has for many, many years, focussed on Africa and what's going on across that continent. When it comes to the capacity of the health care system, gains that have been made in fighting HIV AIDS and whether some of those things could really face a threat as the pandemic takes hold in Africa. Stephen Lewis is coming up. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. Stay with us.

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Wednesday March 25, 2020 Full Transcript

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