Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2020

The AIH Transcript for March 19, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Fit to print. Worried about a shrinking supply of face shields, a doctor in London, Ontario, has started 3D printing his own and giving them to hospitals in need. He tells us why ingenuity is going to be the best medicine during the COVID-19 crisis.

CH: Pandemic picks from authors who ought to know. Amid social distancing and self isolation, many are seeking solace in a good book, including authors who've written their own apocalyptic tales. We'll find out which books Margaret Atwood, Waub Rice, and Daniel Kalla recommend to get us through.

CO: He told us so. Six years after this economist at the World Bank warned that a COVID style contagion would cause the world's next economic crisis, Ian Goldin tells us how deep this one could go.

CH: Distance makes the heart grow fonder and sometimes much more anxious. We bring together a mother in Ottawa with her 15-year-old daughter, who is in France and trying to get home.

CO: Chicken Little. The sky was falling, but this tiny chicken-like-dinosaur survived and may well be the missing link from which modern fowl descend.

CH: And we dip into the archives for a story of sneezing. Unstoppable expulsions that broke a world record, sneeze and thank you, and kept on going. As It Happens. The Thursday Edition. Radio that wishes you a gesuntonight.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Canadian doctor who works in Gaza makes 3D-printed face shields for COVID-19

3D-printed face shields

Guest: Tarek Loubani

CH: As cases have COVID-19 multiply in Canada, Ontario Dr. Tarek Loubani is as ready as he'll ever be. Dr. Loubani splits his time between a hospital emergency room in London, Ontario and the Gaza Strip. That's often a tense conflict zone and it's a place where he's forced to get creative with limited resources. So when warnings went out that Canada might face shortages of medical equipment, Dr. Loubani took matters into his own hands. Last night, he started 3D printing plastic face shields for his staff at the London Health Sciences Hospital. We reached Dr. Tarek Loubani in London, Ontario.

CO: Dr. Loubani, I know you have one of these new face masks in your hands hot off the press. Are you satisfied with your product?

TAREK LOUBANI: I guess the answer is yes. But there's nobody who does this kind of work, who looks at it and says, perfect. But right now, it's more important to get it out there than it is to get it absolutely perfect. So for me, the question I always ask is, is this something that I'm willing to use to protect myself? And at this point, I'm willing to use it. So I think that's good enough to give to other people.

CO: Okay. For a face mask, there are levels of protection that are required and so does it meet the standards that would be necessary for a proper mask?

TL: Yes. This one is the shield part of the mask. It's not the respirator parts -- so not the part that goes over the mouth, but rather the plastic that wraps around. And it's an important part because it stops the droplets from coming and then hitting the eyes, which are quite vulnerable -- the nose, which is also quite vulnerable as a second layer of attack. Most of the things that are helping us fight against the coronavirus are not new technologies or very complicated. It's just that they're not abundant or not used enough.

CO: So when did you decide that you were going to try and do something about that and to start a 3D printing of face masks?

TL: I arrived back from the Gaza Strip where I volunteer, and landed knowing that there was a problem. I started (going) back to work sometime after that because I was off for a little while to make sure I didn't have symptoms. But as I returned to work and as I talked to my colleagues and as we started to see the numbers increasing, it became obvious that Canada will very much have the same trajectory as everywhere else. Of course, we hope that's not the case, but we expect it is. And that's when we realized if everybody else is running out of face shields and other personal protective equipment, then so will we. And looking and surveying the scene, this was a really easy win for us.

CO: Have you done 3D printing of medical equipment before?

TL: Yes. We have been working on this problem for some time. The idea that you don't always have high quality, low-cost medical devices available to you. So we've been working on a stethoscope, which has been out for a couple of years now and is used in London Health Sciences as well. We're working on a thing called a pulse-oximetre, which goes onto the finger and measures the oxygen and electrocardiogram which traces the heart. Those two aren't quite ready, but the facemask very much is ready.

CO: You mentioned that since you've come home, you've realize that Canada is going to need to ramp up and face what other places, other jurisdictions have already gone through. Do you think that that's generally known among the nurses and doctors in this country that we're faced with what other countries have gone through?

TL: At least within the emergency department, we all see this coming. We are the first group of people who are hit by the wave and we're already starting to get hit. In London, we've seen in several cases. I've seen several positive cases and we've seen several very sick cases. And of course, when we see a few a day, it means that within 10 or 20 days, this is going to be much more. We're being realistic about this. Yes. We hope that all of the measures are successful, but we're not going to plan on the assumption of a best case scenario. We have to plan on the assumption of a worst case scenario.

CO: Your time as a doctor in Gaza where you know that doctors learn to improvise, don't they? Do we need to borrow from those experiences for what we're confronting now?

TL: It is both uncanny how the doctors are responding and how similar that is to my colleagues in Gaza. The first thing that happens is that the emergency services huddle and hold hands. There is a sense of deep mutual solidarity and support. We on the frontlines and the hospitals are ready to make the sacrifices we need to to keep Canadians safe. And you're right, a big part of it as well is that things break down, equipment supply lines break down. And when those things happen, the most valuable thing that you can do and participate in is these acts of medical creativity.

CO: It's interesting you say that because the metaphor we keep hearing from doctors and we spoke with one doctor in Italy last night that they speak of a war zone. They feel that they are on the frontline of a war zone, and that you are now borrowing from your own experiences in conflict, that that is something that you learn from and the same experiences get transferred.

TL: Yeah, absolutely. It really does feel right now like when we're sitting in Al-Shifa Hospital, the biggest hospital in Gaza, and we know that there is a bombing coming and we're just waiting. That's exactly how it feels like now. Everybody's gloved, everybody's gowned, and everybody's waiting. We know that in 20 days at this trajectory, we'll be at the same spot that Italy is at today. Obviously, where everybody is working very hard to slow this down. But we know that this is going to get bad.

CO: Dr. Loubani, everyone who's hearing that is, I'm sure, shaken by the idea of what you've just described and what you're preparing for as doctors. I just want to join so many others to say that thank you for doing what you're doing and thank your colleagues for us too.

TL: Thank you very much. I think so many Canadians are doing their part and we hope that that message gets out. We're all in this together.

CO: And just finding on a technical note, how many of these masks or shields have you printed already and how quickly are you ramping it up?

TL: We started printing on Wednesday. And we're now printing at the rate of close to 200 per day. We're printing as quickly as we can to meet the need in London, and then we'll start looking outside of London. In the meantime, if anybody is short on these facemasks, as we expect, or if they anticipate being short, we are open to helping anybody anywhere in Canada to set up and manufacture their own.

CO: Dr. Loubani, I admire your courage and you're into ingenuity. Thank you so much.

TL: And thank you so much.

CH: Tarek Loubani is an emergency room doctor at the London Health Sciences Centre. We reached him in London, Ontario. To see what these face shields look like visit our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Global economic update

Guest: Ian Goldin

CH: Ian Goldin warned us. 60 years ago, the former World Bank vice president published a book in which he predicted that a pandemic would plunge the world into the next great economic crisis. Now businesses are shuttering and unemployment numbers have begun to spike as we watch COVID-19 numbers spiking. Ian Goldin now teaches globalization and development at Oxford University. We reached him in Oxford, England.

CO: Professor Goldin, you largely predicted what's happening now and you are entitled to, I guess, a very large "I told you so." Does that give you any satisfaction?

IAN GOLDIN: No. I wish this hadn't happened, but it was inevitable. And I think it really reflects a failure of leadership and others to understand how globalization has not only spread great things around the world, and jobs and prosperity, but also has become a source of very dangerous things and threats to all of us.

CO: Beyond the pandemic, which, of course, is colossal. But we're now dealing with the other virus, aren't we, which is attacking the economy and the markets. How does this compare with 2008?

IG: Well, I think it was predictable. And that's what I've said in my book The Butterfly Defect. It was predictable that a pandemic would lead to a global financial crisis, a pandemic of the scale. What's different here is many things, and I think this is much worse than the 2008 crisis. One thing that's very different is the way the world politically is operating at the moment, which is not at all in the cooperative mode it was when George W. Bush picked up the phone to leaders in 2008, rapidly got a global response, got China to commit more money than the rest of the world, put together to a stimulus package, called a summit. We are in a very different world now, a world of tension where the US president is involved in the blame game rather than in international diplomacy. Within our economies, I think our health systems are much weaker after the financial crisis as well. This is both a supply and demand shock. Supply because workers are being quarantined, logistics supply chains have fragmented. And of course, the demand shock, because we can't go to buy our things, we can't go and demand the goods and services. And so both demand and supply have been hammered in this process. And that means the cure is much much more complicated.

CO: As you point out, in 2008, there was a global response. Since 2008, globalization, globalism has become a dirty word in many places. Nationalism is a far more popular force now. So how does that change the dynamic given that the borders are closing, malls are going up, tariffs are going into place?

IG: It makes it much harder to resolve. It's going to lead to vast increases in inequality within countries and between countries. And of course, it's going to slow down the global response. The finding of a vaccine. The moving around the world of the much needed supplies of surgical masks, ventilators. So it really creates an even worse problem and of course, fixing afterwards I do worry a lot that we're not getting that global response that we so urgently need and which we had in 2008.

CO: When you say that we began the turnout of 2008 was George W. Bush picking up the phone and calling China. If that's what it takes, where is that leadership? You mentioned Donald Trump certainly is not in the same frame of mind. Is it just an individual relationship thing or why aren't these big international agencies kicking in and moving us forward?

IG: Well, the big international agencies, the UN and W.H.O. part of it are not kicking in because they are owned by the governments of the world. And the most powerful governments have the biggest say in them. So these institutions are not fit for purpose. No fault of their own. The fault of their own as their shareholders, who in particular are the biggest and most powerful governments of the world. So I think where we are with them. Why the leadership, in particular the US leadership, doesn't act in a way that shows a global leadership is really a question of what I think got him elected in the first place and where some of his support base are, which is we can toughen this out alone, the rest of the world's the problem, not the solution, this thing, like every -- it has a bad thing, the loss of our jobs, our inequality, the financial crisis. Mistakenly people say it comes from elsewhere. Of course, this is just going to exacerbate the threats because there's no wall high enough that's going to keep out a pandemic. There's no wall high enough that's going to stop climate change or stop antibiotic resistance or any of the other great threats to our future. But what those high walls do do is they stop our ability to cooperate with others, to resolve them. They stop the technical expertise, the skills, the vaccines in this case, the other things we need.

CO: Now, since you hardly predicted this, do you have any antidotes, any vaccines, anything that you can offer that might cure the economic ills that we're suffering now?

IG: I think there are many things that need to be done. The obvious priority at the moment is the urgency of the health situation. The mobilization of everything it takes at the national and the global level. A lot is being done nationally. But I worry a lot about in the US, for example, the over 20 million people that don't have sick benefits or health insurance. So the safety net that one creates is going to be absolutely crucial. This is also true of hourly contractors and gig workers. So how does one protect not only the 57 million people who earn self-employment in the US and hundreds of millions around the world? This is going to require a massive fiscal response that I think basic income guarantees are needed for societies around the world to say to people we won't allow people in our society to starve. We won't allow people in our society who managed to survive this great health threat to be suffering from bigger economic threats. And, of course, for businesses, we need to give them a lifeline as well, because they, in the end, have to survive just to be able to employ people on the other side of it. And if we can do that, if we can learn through this to cooperate, I believe we'll be able to address many of the other great threats like climate change that we face as well.

CO: All right. Well on that positive note, I'll cling to it and I'll let you go. Professor Goldin thank you.

IG: Thank you very much for having me.

CH: Ian Goldin teaches globalization and development at Oxford University. We reached him in Oxford, England.

[Music]

Al Worden

CH: When Al Worden traveled to the moon with Apollo 15, he didn't walk on it. But he did get a close up view and he gave us one too. As the command module pilot, Mr. Worden orbited the moon in 1971 while his crewmates went down to explore. During that time, he captured sophisticated images of the lunar surface, allowing its terrain to be mapped. And yet, when reflecting on that trip, he said he wasn't there, "for a closer look at the moon, but to look back on our home, the earth." Al Worden died yesterday. He was 88. In addition to being an astronaut, Mr. Worden was an author, poet, and educator. Here he is speaking at a Google Talk in 2011, sharing his experience dealing with the lack of space in space.

[sc]

AL WORDEN: Gemini program came along. That's a two man program. And that was, I believe, 75 cubic feet for two of them. That's like 37 and a half cubic feet for each one of them. Then the Apollo program came along. And man, it was the Cadillac of the spacecraft. [Crowd laughs] It had two hundred and twenty cubic feet for three of us. So we had as much space as one person would have had in a Gemini capsule all by himself. 220 cubic feet of space. That's about what you find in a Volkswagen Beetle. And it's kind of interesting. We trained for three years for this flight. We trained in simulators and we trained together. We train. We did all of that. And you think to yourself what it would be like to be in that thing for two weeks with these guys. And you really can't quite come to any sensible kind of understanding, but you find out when you get there. You know, it's a difference of getting in a simulator for eight hours and then going home as being in this thing for 24/7 and no way out. So you learn to do things. I learned to ignore the other two guys. [Laughter] Basically, that that was my survival mode. It was just kind of to ignore them.

VOICE: [Laughs] In your book, you said when they left for the moon, you could just kind of relax. You know, like finally some time alone.

AL WORDEN: You know, that's kind of in response to questions I get from people -- you know a lot of people say, oh the command module pilot -- oh, you were in lunar orbit by yourself for three days, you've got to be the loneliest guy in the world. It's got to be tough. You've got to be blah blah blah. And I was very quick to point out that was the best time of the flight. [Laughter] I got rid of those two guys for three days. And when I was behind the moon, I didn't even have to talk to mission control. [Laughter] So I was very happy by myself.

[/sc]

CH: Speaking at a Google Talk, that's Alfred Worden, who was command module pilot for the Apollo 15 mission to the moon in 1971. Mr. Worden died yesterday. He was 88.

[Music]

National Arts Centre COVID

Guest: Jim Cuddy

CH: We're all working together to not be together. But acting in concert doesn't mean being without concerts. Over the past few days, more and more musicians have been performing for homebound fans online, mostly for free. But now, thanks to a $100,000 initiative by the National Arts Centre and Facebook Canada, artists will be able to cash in on those concerts. Today, Jim Cuddy helped launch the Canada Performs Initiative with a special show from his Toronto studio. And that's where we reached the Blue Rodeo frontman earlier today.

CO: Jim, we're speaking to you before this show, complete with social distancing. What's it like to perform when you have to stay 1.5 metres apart?

JIM CUDDY: Well, I think that because I'm a big star people should stay that far with me anyway. [Laughter] No. You know what, these are unusual circumstances and we're adapting like everybody else. So we just spread everybody out. And ultimately the sound will draw us all in. So it's fine.

CO: Why do you feel this initiative is necessary for musicians?

JC: Well, I think that any lifeline thrown to people that have marginalized -- and I know that people think musicians have blessed lives, but they live on the economic edge for sure. So I think that this is a really nice initiative to just pay attention and just let some people out there whose income has completely evaporated know that people are thinking about them.

CO: And how does it work? What's going to happen?

JC: Well, I think that what happens is anybody can apply for a grant. I think there are thousand dollar grants from Facebook. I'm sure Facebook gives the money, but initiated through the NAC. And any kind of performance -- it can be music, it can be dance, it can be any type of artistic performance. And they will choose. I think the grants are up to 100,000 dollars. So I think they'll choose 100 different performances and put a thousand dollars out there.

CO: Now, who's already agreed to participate? Have you heard?

JC: I don't think I can give you a definitive list. I heard people that are possibilities, but I haven't heard it definitively.

CO: Serena Ryder, William Prince, Erin Costello, Whitehorse. Is that what you're hearing?

JC: That's what I'm hearing. So I think that if you hear those, those ones are in.

CO: Okay. [Laughs] That's really exciting. And so they will each perform. Where would they do their performances?

JC: Oh, I think it's up to everybody. I mean, we're doing it at our studio, in our lounge. We just took everything out. We're just sitting, playing acoustically in a room. Maybe people are going to be more elaborate, more digital, use more equipment. I really don't know.

CO: It's kind of fun. I guess the canvas they can work with on their own. And whatever they're going to do on that Facebook time that they have.

JC: Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. It'll be interesting to see what people come up with. I think my fallback position is always get rid of all technology and just play music and just put one little mic up there and see how it sounds.

CO: You know, I know that you love to perform. You have a really electric connection with audience. And others do as well. Musicians like to be out in front of a crowd. So just beyond the money that they need, how difficult is it right now for musicians to self isolate, to be denied that vital connection with their audiences?

JC: Well, I would say that was the result of our work. I mean, the payoff is the performance. But most musicians and most artists have to spend a certain percentage of their time self isolated to create. So this is enforced time. I mean, this is time for me to sit and write some songs and get ready for the next recording, whatever it might be. And you feel the absence of being able to play music. And it's not just the audience interaction. It's also just the ability to play with each other and to feel that and to feel the reassurance of, you know, harmony. And so it depends how long it goes by how extreme the reaction gets.

CO: But you're missing -- musicians are missing it, and so are we. I mean, that's the thing, isn't it? That during a crisis like this, when people are very emotional and even panicking to some extent, this is a time really when you need music the most, don't you?

JC: Oh, I think that's very true. I mean, you need all the arts. I'm sure that people are reading more. I know from walking around my neighbourhood that people are really doing a lot more exercising. [Chuckles] But, yes, I think that, you know, I think that what you're going to see in the next coming weeks is a lot of musicians putting things online just for people's entertainment, for the distraction of people that are housebound.

CO: We've spoken with a few musicians already who have done that, who've done performances, and they've told us that all their gigs are cancelled. So what are you hearing from your friends and musicians?

JC: Oh, yeah, that's the thing. I mean, everything has been moved to 2021. I think we're all going to have the busiest 2021 of our lives. But, yes, I think everything is on hold until at least June, if not July. I mean, I think that all of us are hoping that things do get back to some semblance of normality in the summer. But who knows? I mean, we have to cope one way or another.

CO: But this $1000 that musicians might get from this initiative. How far can that go, given that people must be really quite strung out?

JC: Yeah, it's not going to change their lives. But it may pay the rent for a month. And that could be the tipping point. So, I mean, it is something for the people that are doing it to make them feel like somebody is paying attention. And I think that means something too.

CO: Finally, yesterday, one of your bandmates, Greg Keelor, he posted a video on Twitter playing a verse from Bob Dylan's "Tonight I'll be staying here with you" which was a real treat to hear him. And just wondering, what music is keeping you sane these days?

JC: Oh, the same as always the Skydiggers have finally put their first record out on vinyls. So I'm looking forward to listening to that. But I listen to all kinds of music all the time.

CO: Well, we'll be listening to music too, on this program for the same reason to give people some inspiration. And Jim, it's great to talk to you. Thank you.

JC: Nice to talk to you too. Thank you very much.

CH: Jim Cuddy is a singer-songwriter and one of the lead singers in Blue Rodeo. We reached him in Toronto.

[Music]

Part 2: COVID: author recommendations

COVID: author recommendations

Guests: Margaret Atwood, Waubgeshig Rice, & Daniel Kalla

CH: In this time of social distancing, there are all kinds of tips and tricks circulating to keep us feeling connected or just not bored. Video chatting, online yoga classes, parallel binge watching sessions, recording yourself singing John Lennon's "Imagine." Sorry too soon. But one key strategy remains simpler than any of those: Pick up a book. It's what our specially assembled panel of pandemic experts recommends. And they know what they're talking about. Margaret Atwood is perhaps Canada's most celebrated writer and the author of more than her fair share of dystopian literature. CBC Sudbury host Waubgeshig Rice's book "Moon of the Crusted Snow" tells the story of an apocalypse descending on an Anishinaabe community. And Daniel Kalla is an emergency room physician in Vancouver who writes fiction inspired by real life pandemics.

CO: Welcome to all of you appearing here remotely on As It Happens in the middle of this very bizarre time.

MARGARET ATWOOD: And welcome to you wherever you are.

CO: [Chuckles] Margaret, I am going to start with you because you inspired the idea for this panel. You asked people on Twitter what they want most, a comforting book, suggestions, plague book suggestions, poetry suggestions or quote, "stupid, weird, mundane things you've done to pass the time." So what kind of answers did you get?

MA: I got requests for all of them. And I attempted to fulfill each of those requests.

CO: What are you reading right now?

MA: Well, would you like a comforting plague book (CO chuckles) or poetry or other?

CO: I'll go with plague.

MA: So "1491" by Charles C. Mann takes us to the Americas just before Columbus set foot bearing a lot of different horrible germs to which the inhabitants had not inherited or acquired immunity. There's one called "The Great Mortality" by John Kelly, which is about the black death of the 14th century. And remember, Barbara Tuchman, the historian?

CO: Yeah.

MA: Okay. "A Distant Mirror." How awful was the 14th century. You can feel a lot better [chuckles] about our present moment if you take a look at that.

CO: I'm going to ask Waub Rice to respond now, because in your book "Moon of the Crusted Snow" you describe an Indigenous community that's dealing with a kind of apocalypse. But what kind of dystopian or comforting books are you turning to right now?

WAUBGESHIG RICE: Well, I recently read American War by Omar El Akkad. And that takes a look at a second American civil war in the future and it builds to a widespread epidemic much like we are staring down at the moment. And I think when you go deep into a story like that, it just reminds you of the limits of our society and how we could potentially crumble. And I think in a way, it is comforting just to sort of put your head space there and to think about those perspectives, then maybe remind ourselves about what we can do better to avoid those things in the future. But I also recently read Reproduction by Ian Williams. It's a look at, you know, how modern family comes together and the sort of a unique family dynamics. And I found a lot of comfort in that.

CO: I agree with you about Reproduction, it is comforting. Daniel Kalla, you're an E.R. doctor who has written novels about, well, the black death plague. So is that the kind of stuff you are reading yourself? Or are you looking for comfort?

DANIEL KALLA: Oh God no. I'm actually reading right now a book called "A Gentleman in Moscow" by Amor Towles -- which is a beautifully written novel. And it's interesting because it's about a man who basically lives his life under house arrest in a Moscow hotel. Kind of a victim of the Russian revolution. But it's an interesting look at quarantine and self isolation as a form of house arrest as well. So it's for me, it's kind of ironic and quite enjoyable to get away from what's going on every day.

CO: Is that the same for others that the books are taking you away from what you're involved in the outside world?

MA: Well, if you want to laugh, you can read Bunny by Mona Awad. And if you want some horror stories, which people often turn to because they're more horrible than anything that's going on there's Alberto Manguel's two collections of Dark Arrows and Black Water.

WR: I've been finding some comfort in poetry, specifically by Indigenous poets. People like Rosanna Deerchild, Louise Bernice Halfe, Gwen Benaway, Billy Ray Belcourt. I think it's because I feel sort of regaled or spoken to when I read some of those words, and that's comfort as well.

CO: Well, I just want to ask you about Mone of the Crusted Snow because that Indigenous community is facing a total grid failure and no electricity, no communications. So I just wonder what kind of lens -- what kind of lens does that Indigenous experience of an apocalypse, what does that offer readers, do you think?

WR: I think it offers readers a different perspective in that many communities around the world have already endured apocalypse and they've rebuilt. They've found ways to start over. And I think it's comforting as well and maybe a little hopeful if you think about what is possible on the other side. Like when I was younger, my grandmother would tell me stories her grandparents told her of being displaced from the land, of the natural resources around them, being exploited, like the trees being cut down and then being confined to a really small pocket of land where not much is really possible. Like it wasn't possible to proceed with agriculture or to carry on with cultural practices. So I had a pretty deep understanding of apocalypse from a pretty young age. But at the same time I was always really hopeful in the stories my grandmother told me about the way things kept together.

CO: Just another thing you develop in the book is the sense of how panic can take over people. And I'm wondering -- we're wondering what people who are against hoarding toilet paper at this point, where does it go from there as far as people being afraid of their neighbours, of going outside, of what's happening in the larger world?

WR: Yeah, I definitely don't want to downplay the fear that's brewing right now. I think we're all scared in some ways. But I think if your first response is fear, it's important to acknowledge your privilege in that you maybe haven't been to the brink before. Whereas a lot of marginalized communities have experienced that and continue to experience that. And there's a long list of examples in Canada of world ending for different communities. You know, you can look at the destruction of Africville in Nova Scotia or the internment of Japanese Canadians. You know, it's important to take a look at what your personal perspective is and your place in society and just, you know, acknowledge that privilege of being part of the dominant culture and things being generally good in Canada in the last 150 years or so.

CO: And Daniel, I've been speaking with a number of people, doctors mostly in Italy. Your book is set in modern day Italy where the Black Death comes back. We All Fall Down -- this is the title. So do you feel that in any way that you're living in the book that you wrote?

DK: Yeah, absolutely, because I've written a few speculative fiction novels about pandemics. And I feel like I'm living in the early chapters of one of my books but the people aren't quite as good looking as in my books. That's not fair. [Laughs] We've got great staff. But it's that surreal. And, you know, it was so important for me in my fiction to capture that sense of the unknown, which Waub alluded to is just you know the fear. And it's a constructive fear, you know. Fear serves a purpose in this case. It's going to keep us apart. But to actually experience and see -- you know, it's heartbreaking to see what my colleagues are going through in Italy and even in Seattle, just the south in Vancouver. But, you know, these apocalyptical events bringing out the best and the worst in people. And that was one of the major themes of my book, "We All Fall Down." And as Waub says on the other side, you know, the plague served a purpose. There would be no Renaissance sort of you know, many of the things that evolved happened because of the plague.

CO: And Margaret Atwood with your books, I'm thinking the MaddAddam trilogy. This similar idea that people do find hope, they do find connection, they find love. And these are the redeeming qualities in the midst of times when people are really panicked by what's going on around them. Aren't they?

MA: That's true. I'm probably the oldest person. In fact, I am the oldest person on the phone right now. And I'm old enough to have had parents who went through the 1919 so-called Spanish influenza epidemic. And as my grandfather was a country doctor, he was on the frontlines and everybody in their family got it, but nobody actually died. So they remember that -- all the people of that generation remember that very very clearly.

CO: But when we talk about in Waub's book where the community finds returning to who they are and finding that there's life -- that you can renew life. And as Daniel was describing, how the renaissance is only possible, something comes out of these dark times.

MA: People who were dying during the great mortality didn't know there was going to be a renaissance. Oh, goody. [Laughter].

CO: This is going to be worth it.

DK: But we do Margaret. [Chuckles]

CO: By reading these books, hopefully we can find some -- I guess not maybe solace -- in knowing that things come out of that. I mean, even just the things you were saying, the kinds of connections people were making, the efforts people were making.

MA: And that's cheering and very inventive. And this is by no means the worst such episode that the world has ever seen. I think one of the big impacts is going to be because of the economic breakdowns, that's going to be a big impact.

CO: But then again, that's an opportunity with human spirit to come together and to help others.

MA: It's also, a reset the button opportunity. Maybe we should look at the way we've been doing things and think of ways of doing them differently, as Waub suggests.

CO: But Margaret I have to say that I felt like I was living in a Margaret Atwood novel before I was living in a Margaret Atwood novel. Are we going to blow through your whole canon here -- starting with The Handmaid's Tale?

MA: No, certainly hope not.

CO: But I wonder, you know, often these kinds of events end up in fiction itself. Do you think we'll see this moment in time and whatever it comes in the coming weeks and months, will actually enter into fiction?

MA: Without a doubt. I'm not going to do it. [Laughter] But busy hands are at work right now.

CO: Daniel, are you seeing any inspiration?

DK: Yeah, I'll commit to it. Because you know, the one thing that we've really touched on this that's really interesting is we have all read in Margaret's books, and Waub's book -- we all write about heroism and people. And as a frontline health care worker, I just find it awe-inspiring of the heroism from our cleaners, you know, who are risking themselves just by cleaning the surfaces and stepping up to the plate. People are running into the burning building instead of away from it. It's truly inspiring.

MA: So with anything like that, there are some who will do that. There are some that will run away as fast as they can. And others will just hunker down and and become observers.

WR: Amazingly, Margaret, I haven't seen anybody on my local front. I haven't seen anybody turn away from this. God knows I'm capable of profound cowardice. But to see how everybody just rises and realizes it's their duty to respond. I mean, in Italy, 8 percent of the victims are healthcare workers.

CO: All right. So we don't end on this note. I want to ask each of you to give us something. I know that Margaret some of the recommendations you made were for Edna O'Brien and Edith Wharton, Jane Austen. Just maybe a book that might lift your spirits. Anyone?

MA: All of those are fun to read and not about plagues. And I'm reading another one by Valerie Martin. I give it to you and it opens in an idyllic Italian villa.

CO: Wow. We need that. Waub any suggestions?

WR: Well, I will stick with the theme that I think we've explored today, mostly because I believe Indigenous authors have this interesting perspective of dystopian post-apocalypse. So I will recommend The Marrow Thieves by Cherie Dimaline, Future Home of the Living God by Louise Erdrich, and Corvus by Harold Johnson.

CO: And Daniel?

DK: If I were to choose three off the top of my head right now, I would say Robert Harris's Pompeii. It's such a fun read. And then a friend of mine, Robyn Harding, who writes really sexy thrillers, one called The Arrangement, which is a real nice escapism. And then for a war novel, Steven Hartov's The Soul of a Thief. An amazing book.

CO: We're going to try and put the reading list together for our listeners for all these shut-ins out there. It's been great to speak with you, Margaret and Daniel and Waub. And I hope you all and your families all are healthy and remain that way.

DK: Likewise. Thank you. It was an amazing chat with you all.

WR: Thanks Carol.

MA: Lovely to talk.

CH: Margaret Atwood is the author of the apocalyptic MaddAddam trilogy and so many more wonderful books. We reached her in Toronto. Daniel Kalla is an emergency room physician at St. Paul's Hospital in Vancouver and the author of a number of novels about pandemics. And Waubgeshig Rice is the author of Moon of the Crusted Snow and a CBC host in Sudbury, where we reached him today. For a recap of their suggestions, you can visit our website: cbc.ca/aih. And for more in the meantime, here's an excerpt from the audiobook of Moon of the Crusted Snow, narrated by Cree actor Billy Merasty.

[sc]

BILLY MERASTY: The cold upstairs meant the wood stove in the basement was out. And with the electricity now off too the baseboard, heaters hadn't kicked in to compensate for the dead fire. Sometimes they would forget to feed the fire before bed, knowing that if it died down, the electric heat would kick in. But power outages happened regularly enough to remind them to stay on top of it. "Jesus it's freezing in here," she heard Evan say behind her. He walked out into the bright kitchen wearing a black tracksuit and thick wool socks. "Yeah. Power's out," Nicole replied. "Really?" Noticing the surprised uptick in his voice, she tried to reassure both of them. "Yeah, we just forgot to put more wood in the stove," she said. "Remember when this happened last winter?" His shoulders relaxed slightly. "Oh, yeah eh," he said. "Guess I better go down and start that up again." He scratched his head. "Hopefully the power comes back on soon or it is just going to be cereal and cold bread for breakfast." Like most of the homes that had been built or brought in prefabricated in the last decade, their's relied heavily on electric appliances.

[/sc]

CH: That's Cree actor Billy Merasty -- the narrator of the audiobook version of Waubgeshig Rice's "Moon of the Crusted Snow."

[Music]

Sneezing story

CH: The news is pretty relentless right now. So we thought we'd take a trip into the As It Happens archives to find a story that might reduce our collective stress levels. Something soothing, something relaxing. Instead, we found this. Sorry, 40 years ago this week As It Happens spoke with 12 year old Tricia Ray. She had just broken a record that she never wanted to break. And that, frankly, came close to breaking her. So here's a spoiler in advance, but believe me, you'll appreciate it. Tricia did eventually stop sneezing. It just took her another 38 days. Now, from March of 1980, here's Alan Maitland, followed by Barbara Frum.

[sc]

[Music]

ALAN MAITLAND: Last October, a 12 year old Tricia Ray of Sutton Coldfield in England caught a cold and began to sneeze. And while that may not be unusual, the fact that she's never stopped sneezing is. In fact, despite the most ingenious efforts of her doctors, Tricia has sneezed her way into the Guinness Book of Records. She's been sneezing nonstop for 156 days, eclipsing the old record of 155 days. We've reached Tricia Ray at her home in England.

BARBARA FRUM: How did it all begin?

TRICIA RAY: [Sneezes] Well, it all started off as a cold. And I usually have a cough but this time I didn't have a cough.

BARBARA FRUM: And how often do you sneeze?

TRICIA RAY: About 20 seconds each time.

BARBARA FRUM: What's it done to your nose?

TRICIA RAY: Well, it's made it very sore. Nobody is allowed to touch it.

BARBARA FRUM: My goodness, does it do this at night too?

TRICIA RAY: [Sneezes] Once I'm sound to sleep I'm all right.

BARBARA FRUM: So when your brain is truly resting, it doesn't do it.

TRICIA RAY: Yeah.

BARBARA FRUM: Do you think the problem is in your brain or in your nose?

TRICIA RAY: I don't really know. [Chuckles] That's a question you've got to ask my mum there.

BARBARA FRUM: What do the doctors say?

TRICIA RAY: The nurses think it's something [sneezes] in the brain that has told my nose to keep on sneezing.

BARBARA FRUM: Is this just driving you absolutely crazy?

TRICIA RAY: Yes.

BARBARA FRUM: You're very brave to put up with it.

TRICIA RAY: Yes.

BARBARA FRUM: What do your schoolmates say?

TRICIA RAY: [Sneezes] Today they wanted my autograph.

BARBARA FRUM: Because you're getting famous now.

TRICIA RAY: Yes.

BARBARA FRUM: Mr. Guinness, at least has made you famous.

TRICIA RAY: Yes.

BARBARA FRUM: Do you have to blow your nose after every sneeze or do you just keep on going now?

TRICIA RAY: I just keep on going [chuckles].

BARBARA FRUM: What have they tried on you?

TRICIA RAY: Well they've given me lots of tablets -- all these kinds. They've made me tie my nose. And they've hypnotized me.

BARBARA FRUM: Did that work?

TRICIA RAY: No.

BARBARA FRUM: Well, obviously, it didn't if you're still sneezing, right?

TRICIA RAY: [Sneezes] No.

BARBARA FRUM: Oh, this is terrible. You've sneezed about 10 times since we started talking. That's just terrible. Do you think it's got something to do with your age, perhaps?

TRICIA RAY: [Sneezes] I don't know really. Just wish it would go.

BARBARA FRUM: Do people laugh at you?

TRICIA RAY: When they just look at you and say, why are you out and about if you've got such a bad cold? Especially one lady at Christmas -- she was very rude.

BARBARA FRUM: What happened?

TRICIA RAY: [Sneezes] I was in the shop with my mom and she made a comment quite loudly about me -- saying you shouldn't be out if you've got such a bad cold. So that was very embarrassing. [Sneezes]

BARBARA FRUM: And she didn't realize you couldn't help it.

TRICIA RAY: No.

BARBARA FRUM: Well, I hope they fix you soon, Tricia.

TRICIA RAY: Right.

BARBARA FRUM: I don't think you could go through a whole life like that.

TRICIA RAY: No.

[/sc]

CH: From our archives, that's former As It Happens, host Barbara from speaking with 12 year old Tricia Ray in March of 1980. Now, as I mentioned, Ms. Ray would eventually sneeze for 194 days in total before she stopped. That was a Guinness World Record, but it would only stand for a bit over a year because in July of 1981, a young woman named Donna Griffiths, who was also 12 when her sneezing began, surpassed Tricia on her way to sneezing for a horrifying 978 days. We will be heading back into the As It Happens archives in the coming days. But in future, we'll try to find something a bit less on and out of the nose.

[Music]

Part 3: Canadian student in Europe

Canadian student in Europe

Guests: Sophia Godoya & Alison Elliott

CH: Canadians abroad, we have your back. But it's time to comeback. That was the message from Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to Canadians currently out of the country. Here's some of what he said at his daily press briefing on the coronavirus earlier today.

[sc]

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: We're going to work very very hard to bring Canadians home. It's time for Canadians to come home from around the world. We recognize that that will be a challenge. That's why we sent out a text message to all Canadians overseas with information on how to share their situation and get in touch with consular services. I spoke yesterday with the heads of our two large airlines WestJet and Air Canada to talk about how we can work with them to ensure that there are flights to bring Canadians home. We will continue to respond to the overwhelming demand by Canadians for support. We will be there to help them and get home as many people as we possibly can in the coming days and week. On the cruise ship in question, I don't have any specific information on that. But I'm sure there'll be further updates at noon on the regular press conference.

[/sc]

CH: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau speaking earlier today. Sophia Godoya is a 15 year old high school student in Ottawa. At the beginning of February, she went to France as part of an exchange program. I'm sure she was counting the days until she got to go. But now, as you'd guess, she's counting the days until she gets home. Ms. Godoya was supposed to be in France until the end of next month, but then the coronavirus struck. Now her return to Canada is being complicated by cancellations and flight changes. We reached Sophia Godoya in a small town near Santes, France. We reached her mother, Alison Elliott, in Ottawa.

CO: Alison, I'm going to start with you as a mother, how hard is it being away from your daughter with everything that's going on right now?

ALISON ELLIOTT: It's been very, very difficult, very emotional. She's in very good hands. We know that. But, you know, we are staying focused on getting her home back to Canada and, you know, making that journey safely. So it's been a stressful last week, for sure.

CO: Sophia what's on your mind as you live through this separation during this COVID-19 crisis?

SOPHIA GODOYA: Yeah, it's stressful. I try not to think about it too much and just kind of enjoy my last couple of days in France.

CO: And you believe this is your last couple of days?

SOPHIA GODOYA: I hope so.

CO: Alison, how difficult is it to get your daughter home?

ALISON ELLIOTT: It's been a journey for sure. We started the process I guess it would have been last Wednesday, March 11th. She's with a large exchange group. I believe there's 180 students from across Canada, in France, Germany, Italy, and Spain. And last Wednesday, the exchange program said you can bring your your children home. There's no government advisory as such. But if you feel that you want to do that, you know you can and we'll give you the information to do so. So we started the process Wednesday night with her host family. But on Thursday early afternoon, we received notification from the exchange that they had decided they were bringing everybody home. I mean, this whole situation just literally changes within hours. So we did have a secured flight for Friday that got cancelled. We were rebooked to Saturday. That changed. But we're hoping we're still on that flight. We actually haven't received a ticket yet. So fingers crossed, she'll be arriving back in Canada on Saturday, March 21st.

CO: Sophia in France as your mom just said things are changing very rapidly. And we've had the news over the past 24-48 hours that France is really shutting down, isn't it? So what's it like for you in France right now? Can you describe the situation?

SOPHIA GODOYA: Well, like, it's all in lockdown. So it's like everyone in confinement. But we have to have a paper if we want to leave the house from the government that describes why we're leaving the house and our reasons and stuff. So it's definitely different. We're all stuck in the house, but we can still go out in our gardens and stuff. So it's okay. We can get fresh air.

CO: And you've got a family that you're staying with. And they're pretty supportive?

SOPHIA GODOYA: Yes, they're very supportive. It's been really good. They've been keeping me busy in quarantine so I don't think about it too much. So it's been really good.

CO: But it must be really sad for you. I'm sure you were looking forward to this trip.

SOPHIA GODOYA: Yeah, I really was. But I'm hoping maybe to return in the summer.

CO: Alison, you are obviously not the only mother who is worried because you say there's all these other kids who are in other places. What connections have you had with them?

ALISON ELLIOTT: Well, you know, I do know a variety of families just in the Ottawa area whose children are also there. So just between, you know, our little group we're constantly messaging. But like what Sophia had said about the letter is interesting about traveling, because for Sophia to make her flight, she's five hours outside of Paris, which means her family has to get up at 1:00 in the morning and they're going to have to travel with that letter and go through a variety of police checks to get her to the Charles de Gaulle Airport on time. So you know, in perspective, it's taking a village to get these children home. It's [chokes up] it adds to our stress. You know, they are doing as much as they can. And, you know, we're eternally grateful for that.

CO: Just to reassure you to some extent -- we've spoken with people in Italy where this happened when the lockdown happened and it was possible to get through that. The authorities understand that people are trying to...they need to be able to move to some extent. So hopefully they're understanding Sophia.

ALISON ELLIOTT: Thank you.

CO: Sophia, how do you feel when you hear your mom obviously quite upset about what's going on here?

SOPHIA GODOYA: Well, it's stressful for sure. But like, I know I'll get home eventually. So just think about the bright side and stay optimistic.

CO: But you must have been wondering, both of you, since you left because you left at the beginning of February. Things were already getting a bit dicey. Were you concerned right from the beginning?

SOPHIA GODOYA: Well, I know my mom was.

ALISON ELLIOTT: Yeah, I was just questioning it a little. But, you know, everyone was saying, you know, that's fine. They can still go. And I just started to really become concerned, you know, in the last two weeks saying that, you know, I think it's time we bring her home. And you know what? We're really, really proud of Sophia. You know, they're 15, her reaction and her calmness and the way everyone's coming together, it's really extraordinary. And, you know, you do see beauty in crisis. And we've seen a lot of beauty in her French mother and father and the organization that's bringing her home and just people checking in. So there's a lot of positivity to that. And we've certainly grown as a family for sure.

CO: But it must be quite something when your child is so far away from home and then you hear the prime minister say, come home while you still can.

ALISON ELLIOTT: Yeah. That's when the panic started when flight you're getting canceled, borders are getting canceled. And you're just, you know, praying, just give us a few more days. And then a flight is cancelled. Yeah. Today's a very positive day I feel. I was following Air Canada and, you know, they did a statement today. They're still working hard at bringing people home. So I'm feeling confident that Saturday is going to be a really really happy day for many families bringing their teenagers, repatriating them back to Canada for sure. And then we're in self isolation and we're following all the rules from public health and you know, Sophia understands it's going to look a little different when she gets here.

CO: [Chuckles] Being confined to barracks Sophia. [Alison chuckles] Is there anything you want to say to your daughter before we let you go?

ALISON ELLIOTT: We love you. We're proud of you. [Chokes up] You know, we can't wait to get you home and give you a fist bump I guess. You're not supposed to hug. Sophia, you've done a wonderful job representing our family in your country, in France during this stressful time.

CO: Sophia, you want to say anything to your mom?

SOPHIA GODOYA: Oh, yes. I love you too. And I'll see you soon.

CO: You bet. You guys are going to be together on the weekend. And that's great.

ALISON ELLIOTT: I can hardly wait.

CO: Alison and Sophia, thank you both so much.

ALISON ELLIOTT: Oh, thank you. We appreciate your time.

SOPHIA GODOYA: Thank you.

CH: Sophia Godoya is a high school student from Ottawa. She's currently in France on exchange and trying to get home. We reached her in a small town near Santes, France. And her mom, Alison Elliott, was in Ottawa. You can find more on that story on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Polar bear visit

CH: Terry Hedderson is used to enjoying spectacular views as he sips his morning coffee. He lives in St. Lunaire-Griquet, Newfoundland. And his house is perched on the edge of the water. But this morning was different. This morning when Mr. Hedderson looked up from his coffee he saw three polar bears standing on his front patio only a few feet away. Moments later, he was on the phone with Krissy Holmes, host of the St. John's Morning Show, explaining what happened next.

[sc]

TERRY HEDDERSON: They were on my front patio, staring in the front patio windows and staring in the door and then going around my house. And one of them actually opened the door of my pickup truck and tried to get in. And it was just crazy. It was just crazy. It freaked me out.

KRISSY HOLMES: Where are they now?

TERRY HEDDERSON: There is still out on the bay there in a little distance, I don't know maybe 600 feett, I guess.

KRISSY HOLMES: Okay, so polar bear looking in through your front window. Can't imagine how I'd react. How did you react?

TERRY HEDDERSON: Well, panic mode set in a little bit. I have a 7 year old son. So we got a two story saltbox house with all the windows facing the bay. So then he came around the front door, went up by the windows. We went upstairs and I shut my son in the attic. And I called the RCMP and wildlife and stuff like that.

KRISSY HOLMES: Oh, my goodness. Okay. So is this like a routine you've been through before?

TERRY HEDDERSON: No. No. [Chuckles] First time. So he was kind of getting a little nervous. But I told him to go in the attic and you will be okay. And I got the RCMP on the line. He stayed on the line. And then we kind of called around to our friends and a couple came over -- they had a shotgun, shot in the air and kind of scared them away after. But they were here for about, I don't know, 15 minutes or so.

KRISSY HOLMES: I guess if you called your friends with shotguns, you don't have one, I guess.

TERRY HEDDERSON: Well, I'm a hunter. You know, moose hunting and stuff like that. But I mean, I had it in the basement locked up. But I wasn't going to go downstairs and walk past the polar bear just to be able to get it. So I figured I'd be better off just staying up in the attic, you know, staying out of their way. My wife did come out halfway down the stairs just to see, and she looked one right in the face. He was looking in the door, looking in at her. So she came back upstairs real quick.

[/sc]

CH: Terry Hedderson speaking to Krissy Holmes, host of the St. John's Morning Show, just moments after he found three polar bears on his front patio.

[Music]

Olympic training

Guest: Hayley Wickenheiser

CH: Right about now, it would be kind of nice to have something like the Olympics to look forward to. And for the time being, the International Olympic Committee says you still can. But a growing number of athletes and experts say that's irresponsible and unfair to those planning to compete. Hayley Wickenheiser is a former Olympic hockey player and an elected member of the International Olympic Committee's Athletes Commission. We reached her in Toronto.

CO: Hayley, why do you think the IOC has been so reluctant to cancel or postpone the Summer Olympics?

HAYLEY WICKENHEISER: Well, I think probably a multitude of factors. You know, I think no one really knows how this will play out in the coming days and weeks or over the next 24 hours. So wanting to forge ahead and continue to plan to not risk inciting panic or uncertainty in the markets and in the Japanese public and in the world. But, you know, my thought is more on the tone of the messaging. I think it is prudent to tell athletes and tell people of the world, that we don't know where this is going versus guaranteed certainty that the games will happen.

CO: And so you've called it insensitive and irresponsible. Why is that?

HW: Yeah. And I think those comments refer to the tone. And again, insisting that the games will go on when I think we have to be sensitive to what the world is going through. You know, people are losing jobs. People are unsure of where their groceries are going to come from. There's a lot of anxiety and uncertainty in the world. And to be guaranteeing with certainty the games happening. I know they are formal today. I think we have to be a little bit sensitive and empathetic to what others in the world are going through. The games -- they will happen at some point. Athletes are resilient and will adapt. But to me, the Olympics is about humanity. It's about bringing people together. And I think that we have to be empathetic to not only athletes, but to everyone else in the world that's going through.

CO: How difficult has it been for the athletes to continue to train as they've been waiting for decisions?

HW: It's been very difficult. Swimmers can't access pools, track athletes can train outside to a certain degree if you're in a warm climate, but indoor track facilities are closed. Gyms are closed. You know, there's an athlete yesterday on the Global Athletes conference call that can't leave her house. You know, Italian athletes in certain regions can't leave their house or are quarantined. You know, countries like Iran and on and on and on. The Canadian-U.S. border is now closed for nonessential travel. Flights are going to be stopped traveling internationally. There's a lot of factors here there at play that's making it very difficult. And I think there's also a lot of anxiety and worry in athletes but, yes, they likely will be fine. But what are they risking their families or elderly or immunocompromised people in their families. So there's that aspect of it as well.

CO: I guess also there are other competitions or tournaments or meets that lead up to games like these. And large number if not all of them have been cancelled. What effect does that have on even being just getting the momentum and building yourself up for the games?

HW: Well, I'll keep off the bigger issue. I mean, whether we can have a games in July, I don't know. It is still a ways away. But 43 percent of athletes would not qualify for the games or the qualifiers are not complete. There are, I think, discussions going into, you know, pushing back qualifiers and allowing that to happen. But I think given the state of what we're seeing, the rate of the surge that is still to come, both in Canada and the U.S., it's getting tougher and tougher. And athletes need time to prepare. I think it would do an injustice to athletes to have this uncertainty and then say, okay, you've got one or two months to get ready when they've been preparing their whole life for this moment. So a lot of factors to be weighed. And again, just to guarantee with such certainty, I don't think it's accurate when not one person in the world can say where this is going right now.

CO: You have competed in five Winter Games and a summer Olympics in softball. You've been there. You've had the great moments in sports and not just in the Olympics. But what's it like to think for -- you just mentioned -- that person who's been training all their life or they are building to this first time that they will be in a competition like this possible if they qualify? How difficult is this for them? How emotional?

HW: Oh, it's devastating. I think there's a ton of anxiety and a lot of worry in athletes' minds and this is your life and what you do every single day as it would be for anyone in a job to go to work and find out you've been laid off. That's essentially what the athletes of the world are going through right now. And so I remember I was playing on the national team when SARS broke in 2003 -- I was playing professional women's hockey in Finland. And I sat in Finland for almost six weeks waiting for the word of whether we would play or not. It was difficult in the grand scheme of life and what people are going through in the health. I see it on the other aspect of medicine which I am in. And I think it's relatively small compared to, you know, people that are fighting for their lives in various countries around the world right now.

CO: And you are starting this other career as a physician. You're in training for that. Is that affecting how you view what should happen with the Tokyo Games?

HW: It is. It's given me probably a much more sober and interesting lens to look at this through. And I'll say that's probably up until about 10 days ago, I was like, okay I think the games could happen in July and we're going to do this. And as I talk to my friends who are on the front lines in the ICU and emergency rooms across the country, I started to realize that, you know, we're in this for a long haul here. And I think that we have a social responsibility. We may all be healthy elite performers, but we have a social responsibility as global citizens of the world to protect the vulnerable. And that's why we're all socially isolated. So that has to come first before anything and sport can follow.

CO: Hayley, thank you so much for speaking with us.

HW: Okay. Thanks Carol.

CH: Hayley Wickenheiser is a five time Olympian and a member of the International Olympic Committee's Athletes Commission. She's in Toronto.

[Music]

Dr. Catherine Hamlin

CH: When the young obstetrician, Dr. Catherine Hamlin, moved from Australia to Ethiopia in 1959, the plan was to stay for three years. But when she got there, Dr. Hamlin found women suffering from a devastating injury caused by prolonged labor in childbirth. She knew how to help. So she stayed and devoted her life to doing just that. Dr. Catherine Hamlin died yesterday at her home in Addis Ababa. She was 96 years old. Two million women around the world live with obstetric fistulas. Left untreated, they cause incontinence, infection and in many cases, stigmatization and ostracization. The injury is preventable. But once sustained, it requires surgery to repair. Dr. Catherine Hamlin didn't just treat her patients at no charge, she also worked tirelessly to draw attention to their plight in any way she could, including talking to Oprah.

[sc]

CATHERINE HAMLIN: A fistula is just a hole between an internal organ and the outside world. The internal organs are the bladder or the rectum. And the outside world is the birth passage.

OPRAH WINFREY: And how is it that you turn no woman away ever?

CATHERINE HAMLIN: We treat them all freely because they're poor. They've got nothing.

OPRAH WINFREY: And how are you funded?

CATHERINE HAMLIN: We beg.

OPRAH WINFREY: You beg?

CATHERINE HAMLIN: [Chuckles] My husband used to say we're professional beggars.

OPRAH WINFREY: You begged.

CATHERINE HAMLIN: We're not patching up old people for a few more years. We are giving a young, beautiful woman a new life. And this is what I say in Ethiopia -- I love them. And you'd love them too, if you could see them. They are beautiful women. I'm old. I'm nearly 80. And I've got to think of the future. But there'll still be fistulas there when I've gone. And this is why I want to be sure that's why I'm talking to you, to make the American public aware that this problem is going on. Because it's a women's issue, nobody's done anything about it. If men were getting fistulas, something would have been done years and years ago.

OPRAH WINFREY: If a man had a hole in his penis, you darn right about. [Crowd laughs]

[/sc]

CH: Catherine Hamlin was often called the saint of Addis Ababa -- and compared to Mother Teresa. But those close to hers have said that calling her a saint is an understatement. Dr. Hamlin herself, however, dismissed the praise, preferring to focus on her patients. And by the way, Oprah wrote her a big cheque that day, which resulted in a new wing being added to the women's hospital that Dr. Hamlin and her late husband, also a physician, set up to do their work. Dr. Catherine Hamlin died yesterday at her home in Addis Ababa. She was 96 years old.

[Music]

Bird fossil

Guest: Daniel Field

CH: Science does not like to wade into philosophical matters. But researchers are suggesting, just suggesting, we now know which came first. They revealed the discovery of a tiny fossil of the world's oldest known modern bird. It was about half the size of a mallard duck, and it was quite possibly the earliest known ancestor of every chicken on the planet. The findings were announced in a report released in the journal Nature. Professor Daniel Field was a coauthor of that report. He's an avian paleontologist and a researcher at the University of Cambridge. And we reached Professor Field in Cambridge.

CO: Professor Field, can you describe what this little bird might have actually looked like 67 million years ago?

DANIEL FIELD: Sure. Well, we're talking about a relatively small bodied duck-like or chicken-like bird. We think that it would have weighed about three hundred ninety five grams. And it would have had fairly long legs that were relatively narrow. And as a result, we think that this bird was probably a shore dwelling bird.

CO: So this was not a bird that was hanging out in the trees, which didn't exist after the asteroid hit, right?

DF: Yeah, exactly. So when the asteroid struck the earth, wildfires broke out all around the world. And we think that forests were really devastated at that point in time. And so living on the ground and living in this sort of shoreline environment might be one of the sort of traits that might have helped birds like this new fossil actually make it through that mass extinction event.

CO: You and your colleagues nicknamed this fossil Wonder Chicken. Why is that?

DF: Well, when we first found this fossil, we were absolutely amazed to see this unexpected skull on the computer screen because we C.T. scanned a couple of blocks of rock with some broken limb bones poking out, which had no hints of there being a complete skull inside. So it was only with these high energy C.T. scans that we were able to actually look inside the rock and see this incredible skull staring out at us. So when we first discovered that skull and realized that it had a few chicken-like features, we named it the Wonder Chicken right then and there.

CO: But now when you saw it and you're looking into that rock and seeing that skull, did you think that you had something that could actually explain some evolution that this bird was actually something that survived?

DF: Yeah, I mean, we were amazed because we knew how old the fossil was, even when we thought that it was just made up that these broken leg bones. We knew that it was about sixty six point seven million years old, which places it just a few hundred thousand years before the asteroid struck and wiped out the giant dinosaurs. But the fact that this fossil is from the age of dinosaurs was amazing because we've never previously seen the skull of a modern bird from the age of dinosaurs before. So right when we first saw the skull of the wonder chicken we knew we had something really exciting.

CO: Now, is it just chickens that would descend from this bird or are there other species that may have been their great, great great great whatever parents?

DF: Yeah, it is a great question. So we think that this particular fossil is close to the common ancestor of living duck-like birds as well as chicken-like birds. So if you look at the modern bird family tree, you'll see that chicken-like birds are actually the closest living relatives of duck-like birds. But we've never previously seen a fossil close to the common ancestry of both of those groups. And one of the most amazing things about the skull of this new fossil is that it shows features both of chicken-like birds in that the beak and many aspects of the face are fairly similar to what we see in living chickens or pheasants. But actually, the back of the skull is much more similar to what we see in living ducks and their relatives in terms of how the skull roof looks and how some other structures of the skull are shaped.

CO: And so is it a bill or a beak -- does it have webbed feet, any other features that can tell you anything?

DF: Well, we don't think it had webbed feet, but we're not actually sure because the sort of ends of the feet are not preserved. But we think that it had fairly long limbs, a little more similar to what you might expect out of a sandpiper than what you might expect from something like a duck. But the actual shape of the bill or the beak -- you can use to either term -- is more similar to what you'd see in, say, a barnyard chicken than what you'd see in a duck. So it wasn't incredibly flattened, like the bills of most living duck-like birds, but the face was generally pretty chicken-like.

CO: Okay. Now is it true then that all the chickens we have in the world today, all the different types of chickens, would all have descended from this species?

DF: Well, if we're right that this fossil is close to the common ancestry of those two groups, that it may actually be the case that both the chicken lineage and the duck lineage owes its ancestry to this thing.

CO: All the birds that are now in the world, and there's so many different species, did they all descend from the handful that actually survived the asteroid?

DF: Well, we think so. So in the present day, there are just shy of eleven thousand living bird species. So they're incredibly diverse living birds in the present day. Of course, the most ubiquitously distributed group of living tetrapod animals. But we haven't known very much about sort of the earliest evolutionary origins of modern birds. And as far as we can tell right now, we think that perhaps only a small handful of lineages of living birds were actually present right towards the end of the age of dinosaurs. So indeed, it seems like only a handful of branches of the modern bird tree of life made it across the mass extinction event that wiped out the giant dinosaurs.

CO: Now, what are you hoping then? What other discoveries and things you want to learn from this little creature that you found in the rock?

DF: Well, there's still more to be learned about this particular fossil. But I would say the thing that we're most excited about is that finding this fossil gives us hope that future fossil discoveries of even older modern bird fossils from the age of dinosaurs might be found in places like Europe or North America, because this fossil coming from Belgium is the very first modern bird fossil -- convincing modern bird fossil -- that we've ever seen from the northern hemisphere.

CO: Okay. Well, good work and thank you also for a distraction from all the other bad news we've got. Sounds like you've got something really exciting.

DF: [Chuckles] I'm happy to provide that.

CO: Thanks Professor Field.

DF: Thank you. Bye now.

CH: Professor Daniel Field is an avian paleontologist and a researcher at the University of Cambridge. We reached him in Cambridge, England.

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

March 19, 2020 episode transcript

More Stories Like This