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The Current Transcript for March 6, 2020

Host: Matt Gallaway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

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National call-in show: How are you coping during the COVID-19 pandemic?

Guests: Bruce Heyman, Erin Warman, Brian Goldman

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I'm not panicking too much. I'm just trying to remain calm.

VOICE 2: Any time I hear a cough, I get a little nervous.

VOICE 3: I bought Hand sanitizer and Lysol wipes.

VOICE 4: I've been stocking up for years.

VOICE 5: A lot of things are being cancelled a lot of things are being postponed.

VOICE 6: Normal stuff that I think a lot of us took for granted before.

MATT GALLOWAY: It is amazing how quickly that normal stuff can disappear. As the Cauvin 19 pandemic takes hold? Many of the things we took for granted just a few weeks ago are out, replaced with things like social distancing, anxiety about paying the bills and wondering how long this will all last. This morning, conversations with those working on the frontlines of this fight. And then we want to hear from you. We are opening our phone lines for a cross country call in show. How are you holding up? What do you want to know? What's helping you get through this? And what have you seen that gives you some degree of hope? It's the first day of spring. Maybe that is lightening your mood in the midst of these anxious times. The finance minister, Bill Morneau, will join us, as well as doctors, nurses, health care workers and those making a real difference in their community. These are difficult times. And so if we can't meet face to face, let's talk over the radio. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MG: As I said, we're getting ready to take your calls, the current will be on for an extra hour today, so the lines will be open between nine and 11 a.m. I'm going to give out a toll free number. So look for a piece of paper, get the phone out, put it into the dialling app that you have. Maybe the notes app. You ready? Here we go. The number to call is 1 888 4 1 6 8 3 3 3. That's 1 8 8 8 4 1 6 8 3 3 3. I will repeat that number throughout the program. You can also find it on our web site cbc.ca/thecurrent and we're looking forward to hearing you join us over the course of this morning. In the meantime, let's go to the frontlines of this fight. You know, the people working in health care have very tough jobs on a good day. It's hard, long hours, tough calls. Now, nurses, doctors, paramedics and health care workers are going overtime to keep a pandemic at bay. In Toronto, Dr. Brian Goldman is just off a night shift in the emergency department. Brian, as you know, the host of CBC is White Coat, Black Art and a new podcast called The Dose. Aaron Warman is a community nurse in Niagara, Ontario. Good morning to you both.

ERIN WARMAN: Good morning, thank you for having me.

MG: I want to start by asking, how are you holding up? Aaron, how's everything?

ERIN WARMAN: Things are pretty tough. Yes, we're pretty concerned about the lack of personal protective equipment. We're concerned about the lack of conversation that's happening when it comes to home care. A lot of these patients that are being sent home from the hospital, if they require anything, they're being put into our service. And we're basically walking in with very little, if any, protection on. And nurses are getting pretty, pretty scared and concerned about spread. And there's discussion of having to refuse where it can. That's not anything we want to do.

MG: I can hear it in your voice. I mean, this these are tense times for all of us. But you're right there. Describe what your job is. What do you do?

ERIN WARMAN: So I work for a private agency that has a contract with with the [unintelligible]. So in my community, I specifically provide peritoneal dialysis for patients. They work with wounds. I help manage symptoms for patients who are dealing with cancer and chemotherapy. The list is huge. We do a little bit of everything.

MG: You're not in a hospital. You're in their homes.

ERIN WARMAN: I in their homes and in their communities typically were also in schools, which obviously is not happening right now. We usually in retirement homes, nursing homes, hotels, motels, you name it, where we're everywhere in your community. And a lot of people don't even realise.

MG: What sort of preparations are being put into place. I want to bring Brian in in a moment. He's working in a hospital where they've been working overtime to get ready for this. But in people's homes, in the community, what sort of preparations are there for the new risk that we're all facing with the coronavirus?

ERIN WARMAN: To be honest, very little of the information that we're receiving from different health bodies is very conflicting, when it comes to whether COVID is airborne or droplet and what type of precautions we should be using. I would hope that we would learn from mistakes that we've made in the past, and just over protect our health care workers right now. Better to be safe than sorry. But at this point, you know, they're sending us in to people's homes where are our equipment has to touch surfaces and we don't even have wipes to wipe those things down after we leave. As you know, in hospital, we see those wipes up on the wall. We don't have that. We, we've got gloves and we have surgical masks. If we can get goggles, we've got them. But we don't even have anything to wipe those down and we are expected to reuse them. So it's really concerning because we're doing the screening. And if a patient has symptoms, that's the only the only patient we're allowed to wear those goggles and mask for. And if they don't have symptoms, we're going in. And that's concerning when we're dealing with so many vulnerable people, a lot of elderly people and a lot of immunocompromised people.

MG: Brian Goldman, you're just off, as I mentioned, a shift in the emergency room. You've had a long night. What was it like in the E.R.?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: It was the busy although it's interesting, I would say that that there are like some emergency departments. We're starting to see fewer people because of social distancing. For the other things that that people would be coming in like trips and falls and ankle sprain. Well, that's not true of every emergency department. I visited North York General Hospital yesterday where they're seeing more people than ever. So they're seeing a combination of COVID-19, rule out COVID-19s and everything else. And on one busy day, they told me they saw 560 patients, which to me is an unfathomable number. In our emergency department we're certainly we're relatively busy. We are, when the hospital has the assessment clinic, which is not running 24/7, then many of the rule out COVIDs can be seen, there and they're not coming to the emergency department. But I was there in the evening until the early hours of the morning. And so those patients were all being funnelled through the emergency department. So there's a lot of rule out COVID-19. And in some cases, they feel that, you know, in the vast majority of cases, we're sending patients home. And we're trying to take care of all the other stuff at the same time. It is kind of mad. It's kind of the eerie calm before the storm, because, you know, we're getting the first reports of community spread. When that happens, it will be everywhere. And the travel history will be far less relevant than it is right now. And so, you know, among our colleagues, we're certainly- there's a level of anxiety that I haven't seen for a long time. People talk to us, you know, and I remember SARS as I was there during SARS. And, you know, it's a marathon, it's not a sprint. Remember, you have to pace yourself. And we're all trying to find ways of trying to relieve the stress. And at the same time, you know, you get patients who are brought in where there's a sticker that says Rule Out COVID and but they were put into a room where there's fewer precautions. And that's because, you know, it's an imperfect science of deciding who needs to be, where you need to rule it out, and when you don't. Because in a very reductionist success, you're going to be really COVID in everybody you see, which is impossible because, you know, we wouldn't have the equipment to do that, protective equipment. And so we're taking it one patient at a time. But, you know, we're all trying to adjust to the new normal.

MG: Erin, you talked about the possibility that you could have to refuse work, that you would have to withdraw the services that you're doing. Tell me a bit more about that and how you could see yourself get into a position where you have to stop working because you're not being protected enough.

ERIN WARMAN: I mean, the provincial government, the Canadian government, the chief medical officer there, they're going with the whole travel aspect of this. And as was just said, it's going to start spreading. And when that happens and these nurses are out in the community without the support and the protections that they need, we're going to be spreading it to other people. And that's terrifying. There are nurses that are also immunocompromised, depending on, you know, what's going on with their health. So they have families that are immunocompromised. We have nurses who have family on service and they have up to seven healthcare workers coming into their home a day and they're still being expected to go to work as well. That's really scary and very concerning for people. So there's nurses just saying, I'm going to have to refuse. And I don't want to do that because we're seeing referrals are going to start coming in. We're going to see an influx of more people needing us. And we're not sure how we're going to be able to manage that and how our employers are going to deal with it.

MG: What happens to your patients if you can't come into work?

ERIN WARMAN: Well. So we're not technically deemed essential in the sense that the backup plan is that they always have the hospital. But as we just heard, they'll have that right now. So, you know, we're in a position right now where we don't want to do that. We shouldn't have to do that. We're concerned even about our college licences in having to refuse to do that work. But it's unsafe. This is just not a decision we have to make. So, I mean, I've been working with our union and our employer and trying to get them to make better decisions around this instead of just following these minimum standards or bare minimum standards. I think the concern, too, is a lot of the information coming out in the direction is more for the hospital staff and home care is unfortunately being ignored. And that's a huge risk that we're going to see in our communities all over the place where when it does start to spread more.

MG: Brian, what do you make of what you're hearing from Erin?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Well, Matt, you know, that's an interesting point. And I think that Erin is probably right, that I think there's been a lot of effort to instruct hospital workers. And I think hospital workers are well-trained. You know, I certainly am not going from home to home. I'm not running a house call service. And I and I'm not participating in home care. And I think that these frontline workers do need to be supported. If anything, they need, you know, even more information and personal protective equipment to make sure that they're not entering a home at risk. And you know, of course, that we're relying on public health to let us know just how much community spread. Now, there is one thing, you know, in the absence of information, there's anxiety and anxiety, there's rumours. And I think we've got to be really careful about that. There is no evidence that covered 19 is airborne. And that's the kind of thing that can get people frightened for no reason at all. It's droplets spread, which means that it's on surfaces. You know, there's some question as to how long it can it can exist on surfaces. We know it can't multiply on surfaces like tabletops and stuff. You know, cleanliness is very important. But it's not airborne. But certainly everybody needs to be well-trained and well-briefed on this for the long haul.

MG: We just have about a minute or so left in this remaining time. Brian, how are you? You're in the midst of this. You're taking care of patients. How are you taking care of yourself? The family as well.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: So, you know, I'm washing my hands more frequently than ever. I'm trying to take care of myself spiritually and physically by running. And yesterday on Twitter, I talked about doing a face plant. But I kept on going. And it's really important that you try to carve out a bit of normalcy for your for yourself in your life. And I'm talking to my family, to my kids, my partner to mirror as often as I can about what I'm seeing.

MG: Erin, what about for you? How are you taking care of yourself?

ERIN WARMAN: I started the care mongering Niagara group, and that's my support system right now. Those people are amazing. We've got over 3000 people in that Facebook group that are going out and trying to help the people in your community. That's my reprieve from this right now is just seeing my community come together in a different way. And I'm hearing me out when things are going on. And, yes, we've built a huge family support system within Niagara. And I couldn't be more grateful.

MG: But it's hard, hasn't it?

ERIN WARMAN: Yes.

MG: You're both doing great work. And I appreciate you talking to us. Take care yourselves.

ERIN WARMAN: Thank you. You, too.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Take care, Matt.

MG: Dr. Brian Goldman, emergency room physician, host of CBS White Coat Black Art and a podcast called The Dose. And Aaron Warman is a community nurse in Niagara, Ontario. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. We learned yesterday some news that a lot of people thought perhaps would be unthinkable. And that is that there would be changes to the longest undefended border in the world. Canada and the United States share that border. Hundreds of thousands of people go back and forth every day. There's something like $2.7 billion in daily trade across that border. Yesterday, the leaders of both countries agreed to close the border to all but non essential traffic. Another in a long list of extraordinary measures that governments are taking in an effort to stop the spread of covered 19. Bruce Heyman served as the U.S. ambassador to Canada from 2014 through 2017 under then President Barack Obama. Bruce Heyman, good morning to you.

BRUCE HEYMAN: Good morning from Chicago.

MG: Could you have ever imagined that the U.S. Canada border would all but close except for two nonessential traffic?

BRUCE HEYMAN: I think we're living in a world of the unimaginable. And I could never imagine that. But yet again, listening to the medical teams, workers that you just had on and knowing the experience that we're seeing around the world, we're living in very unusual times and none of us have ever experienced. And the unimaginable is actually happening.

MG: How did this happen? Because on Tuesday, Canada announced that U.S. citizens would be exempt from border restrictions. What do you think changed in a couple of days?

BRUCE HEYMAN: So I don't know if it actually teams in a couple of days. My guess is we were leading up to this, but the way I look at this is that the prime minister and the deputy minister and your government had three main objectives going into this. The first and foremost was ensuring the health and safety of Canadians and Canadian residents. And I think there was a recognition of this spread taking place from the Far East all through Europe and now having hotspots in the United States. And they needed to do something about that. Second, I think that they needed to make sure the economy was functioning and the critical need that you have in terms of importing things from the United States, like food, medicines, things that make your economy work. And of course, the 75 percent of your exports that go to one country, The United States. Third, they needed to accomplish one and two, protecting Canadians and taking care of their economy and do it in a way that didn't upset a or ruffle Donald Trump, who is easily ruffled at times.

MG: So what does that mean doing those things without ruffling the president?

BRUCE HEYMAN: Well, you know what? I think if you just came in and dictated to the president, this is what we're going to do and how we're going to do it. He doesn't react well to that. But I think coming in as it's now been laid out in, you know, on the CBC and elsewhere, that Deputy Prime Minister Freeland reaches out to Vice President Pence, begins this conversation and quickly it starts moving that we're going to collaborate and do it together. And it gave space for both countries to be able to announce it simultaneously and achieve something that I think we're trying to achieve domestically for our populations is eliminate nonessential travel. We should be doing that, both in Toronto, in Chicago and elsewhere.

MG: Who's going to decide what's essential and what's non-essential when it comes to crossing that border?

BRUCE HEYMAN: I think that's the hardest thing right now. And I'll tell you, while I was ambassador and there were a lot of rules and laws that exist between our two borders, but at the end of the day, it's that individual border officer, she or he, on either side of our borders to have to make those judgments. And that's why on certain days you'll say, wow, on Tuesday, under the same facts and circumstances, I can get in. And on Thursday, we had a problem either with a visa or a work visa. Now we get to essential and nonessential. And I think that they're going to be, A, grey areas. B, I think that this is an evolving decision process that we're going to make between our two countries. And then it may be what's essential today may just not be a central next Saturday. And so I think it leaves space for both countries to operate in an evolving situation. But yet, I think a message to Canadians and others, first of all, you shouldn't do nonessential travel. There are no vacation time here. But second, you should understand that this may not go as smoothly as we would all hope.

MG: One of the great fears in closing this border or tightening it up at the very least was that trade would be affected. I mentioned $2.7 billion in daily trade across this border. The president tweeted the trade would not be affected by the new border rules. Is that realistic, do you think?

BRUCE HEYMAN: I think on goods, it's probably pretty realistic, albeit that number is going to get hit because some large component of it is fossil fuels out west and the price of oil has collapsed here over the last couple of weeks. So those numbers are naturally going to go down from that component alone. And then you also see tourism and things that are related to that. The hard part is going to be services. And we do a lot between our two countries that are based on services. And how that gets executed going forward is going to have to be from homes on computers and telephones as opposed to coming in and visiting face to face, whether you're accountants or attorneys or, you know, architects or people who are providing all kinds of services that we do together. This is going to actually be a lot more challenging. And so we'll see how that develops.

MG: How worried should Canadians be about the supply chain being interrupted? We saw, if I can put it this way, panic buying in some grocery stores at the end of last week because people were worried that they wouldn't be able to get food. We were assured and reassured by politicians that that wouldn't be the case. But should people be concerned about the supply chain being disrupted?

BRUCE HEYMAN: You know, look, this is a time where we're worried about a lot of things. The first and foremost, we're worried about our lives and the safety of our friends, family and ourselves. Secondly, of course, people are concerned. If you're told that you're going to be in your home maybe for some extended period of time, you want to make sure you have enough food. But that all being said from the people that I know back in the states who rushed out and yes, the shells were also experiencing that here. My guess is homes are going to get stocked up really fast. And people I talked to say I have enough food for two or three weeks or four weeks. And, you know, this will process through. They'll restock the shelves. And this should calm down a bit as people will realise that they do have access. We have to worry about everything. But for the most part, I think grocery stores and pharmacies and the like are going to really be a focus of both of our governments to keep open.

MG: Just in the remaining few seconds that we have. You're in Chicago. How are you coping through all of this?

BRUCE HEYMAN: So, look, I. I see that, you know, in the typical American way, I don't think a lot of people are taking this as seriously as they need to. And I think it's kind of bifurcating. You've got the group. We're very serious. They're staying in the house. And they're focussed on their health and safety and talking to friends. And then you have this other group of, look, it's fine. I think everybody's overreacting. And, you know, St. Patrick's Day weekend, the bars were full here in Chicago and forced the governor to shut down the bars. And so we're coping. My wife started playing the piano again for the first time in probably 20 years. So I turned around. What's going on? But look, you know, one of my bigger concerns of being in the house is my calorie burn is six calories and my calorie and consumption is about 5000. So I think I'm on a bad path.

MG: Yikes. Bruce, take care of yourself. It's good to talk to you, as always.

BRUCE HEYMAN: Good chatting. Take care, Matt.

MG: Bruce Heyman, former U.S. ambassador to Canada. While the CBC News is next and then we are taking your calls from nine a.m. through 11 a.m. The Current's on for an extra hour. How are you coping with his pandemic? You can call the lines are open now. 1 8 8 8 4 1 6 8 3 3 3. 1 8 8 8 4 1 6 8 3 3 3. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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'Make the best of times': Meet the 10-year-old writing a musical about coronavirus

Guest: Kennedy Coates

SOUNDCLIP

[Singing] I'm sorry that I had to go, but I know that you have it, though. Oh Corona. [Singing ends] Oh, well, does Coronavirus he Musical. See you later.

MG: That's Kennedy coach. She's 10 years old. She lives in Toronto. And what you heard, yes, indeed. Some of her Coronavirus Musical Kennedy. Good morning.

KENNEDY: Good morning.

MG: What is your musical about?

KENNEDY: Well, it's about someone getting the coronavirus. And I guess there's one way to tell people about it and this making me have a good time.

MG: And so why in the midst of this, why would you write a musical?

KENNEDY: Well, one morning I woke up and the news was on and they were talking about the coronavirus. So then I was like, oh, okay.

MG: And the musical seemed like the right thing to write.

KENNEDY: Yes.

MG: How many songs are in it? You have a lot of songs?

KENNEDY: I have four song.

MG: Four songs. Have you ever written a musical before?

KENNEDY: Yes.

MG: Really? You're 10 years old and you've already written musicals before?

KENNEDY: Yes.

MG: What do you love about musicals?

KENNEDY: Well, I really like Hamilton and my. I really like to sing. And I like like all the interactions with like the dancing, the singing, the props, the costumes and like everything with them.

MG: That's pretty great. It's only been a few days. This is supposed to be March break. And so you would have been off school anyway. What were you going to do during March break?

KENNEDY: I was going to go to my camp and see my friends.

MG: When you learned that the camp was closed. What was your reaction?

KENNEDY: Well, I was kind of happy because I get to spend more time with my family and my dog. But then like, oh, I can see my friends now.

MG: Yes. You're going to be at a school for at least a couple more weeks.

KENNEDY: Yes.

MG: How's that going at home?

KENNEDY: I'm doing pretty good. I miss playing with my dog, watching TV, writing a script. Stuff like that.

MG: All of that good stuff.

KENNEDY: Yes.

MG: You're writing a story as well?

KENNEDY: Yes.

MG: What's your story of it?

KENNEDY: Well, it's about this kid who dropped out of high school and his mum died at birth. And when he comes back home, his mom's a ghost. And she's trying to protect him from like evil, kind of.

MG: You're a super creative kid.

KENNEDY: Thank you.

MG: You have a lot going on. You have a brother as well.

KENNEDY: Yes.

MG: How's that going? How old is he?

KENNEDY: 13.

MG: He's 13. So you're both in the house at the same time?

KENNEDY: Yes.

MG: Getting along?

KENNEDY: Sometimes.

MG: Sometimes. If it was like most of the time or some of the time, how what's the balance? Are you mostly getting along or mostly...

KENNEDY: Mostly getting through yelling, mostly getting along?

MG: What are you doing together to stay busy?

KENNEDY: Well, we like to play on Nintendo together and play games.

MG: It's a good way to burn some time. Do you miss being outside?

KENNEDY: Yes.

MG: Yes. What are you looking for, when all of this is over and this is done, what do you what are you looking forward to doing the most?

KENNEDY: I'm going back to school.

MG: You want to get back to school?

KENNEDY: Yes.

MG: There are a lot of kids who are across the country who are in the same situation that you are right now. They're not in school and they don't know when they're going to go back to school. What would you say to them?

KENNEDY: I'll just say make the best of times, spend time with the family. Have a great time. And just be happy.

MG: When this is over, do you think we'll be able to see your coronavirus musical on a stage somewhere?

KENNEDY: [Laughs] Maybe.

MG: I hope so. Have a great time and good luck making it through all of this with the dog and with the brother and with your family as well. Kennedy thank you.

KENNEDY: Thank you for having me.

MG: Great to talk to you. Kennedy Coats is a 10 year old and lives in Toronto, has already written what a couple of musicals, a has a Corona virus musical that she's in the midst of and also working on a story.

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