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The AIH Transcript for March 13, 2020

Hosts: Duncan McCue and Chris Howden

Prologue

DUNCAN MCCUE: Hi. I'm Duncan McCue, sitting in for Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

DM: COVID-19 hits home. Amid self-quarantined for the Prime Minister and his wife, Canada makes sweeping new rules to stem the spread of coronavirus. And Justin Trudeau tells the nation, we will get through this together.

CH: Music to their ears, and yours. Across Italy tonight, quarantined residents opened their windows and sang in unison -- a joyful sound that was nothing short of contagious.

DM: Grief and growth. It's been one year since 51 people in New Zealand were murdered at their place of worship. To mark the anniversary, the country's prime minister says, New Zealand and its people have fundamentally changed.

CH: Panic buys or rather sells. A Vancouver couple is making a killing, reselling germ killing, cleaning wipes. The hustlers are confronted in a Costco parking lot.

DM: Beating a pathogen. Scientists are furiously working to create a vaccine for COVID-19. Our guest explains why, despite their best efforts, it'll be a long time before their work finds its way to a needle near you.

CH: And sheer brilliance. A Newfoundland man has discovered an essential new accompaniment for eating spaghetti: scissors. We'll hear from the inventor himself about his cutting-edge technique. As It Happens. The Friday Edition. Radio that's always open to new pastabilities.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: B.C. couple confronted at Costco for buying bulk Lysol wipes to re-sell for profit

COVID-19: New rules

Guest: Adam Vaughan

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JUSTIN TRUDEAU: I know that you're worried. You're worried about your health and your family's health, about your job, your savings, about paying rent, about the kids not being in school. I know that you're concerned about uncertainty in the global economy. Every order of government is working to stop the spread of the virus. Businesses and citizens are taking precautions. We have outstanding public health authorities who are doing an outstanding job. We will get through this together.

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CH: The Prime Minister spoke to Canadians on an extraordinary day for the country. He announced restrictive new rules about traveling and movement. Parliament was shut down. Justin Trudeau spoke outside the home where he and his family have been in isolation since his wife, Sophie Gregoire Trudeau, tested positive for COVID-19. Mr. Trudeau says he's shown no symptoms and is continuing to lead the government's fight to contain the spread of the virus. But reporters want to know why he hasn't been tested himself.

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JUSTIN TRUDEAU: In terms of advice I've gotten from medical professionals, it was explained to me that as long as I do not show any symptoms at all, there is no value in having me tested.

REPORTER: Could you describe your situation domestically here in a little more detail? Is your wife here in this house? Are all three kids here? And if so, a question a lot of Canadians are dealing with, how are you going to keep them occupied for the next two weeks?

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Most of the morning, the kids have been doing Lego. And my wife has been on the phone to friends and family. I have been on the phone with President Macron, with cabinet, with officials and members of my team as we work to keep Canadians safe.

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CH: Prime Minister Trudeau in Ottawa this afternoon. Adam Vaughan is the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Families, Children, and Social Development. We reached him in Toronto.

DM: Mr. Vaughan, the prime minister says he knows all Canadians are worried. How worried are you and the rest of your government?

ADAM VAUGHAN: Look, this is an issue to be concerned about. It's an issue to think things through and to be in sort of a position where you act with an abundance of caution. But you also have to continually lean into the best science, the best medical advice, and then act accordingly. So, of course, we're concerned. Of course, you know, we are worried and we're watching very carefully to make sure that our communities and people in our communities get the health care and the support they need, if it's so unfortunate that they come into contact. But now's the time to be rational and smart, and use factual information to guide our behaviour. And we'll get through this together. We'll get through this in a smart way, but also a safe way.

DM: You say it's time to be rational and smart. But what are Canadians supposed to think when they see the prime minister in isolation and his wife has tested positive?

AV: That this is the right thing to do when your family comes into contact with somebody who starts to exhibit some of the ailments: the coughing, sore throat, the flu-like symptoms, and elevated temperature. When that happens, you go into self-isolation. You contact health authorities by phone, and you let public health authorities manage the situation and give you good advice. And what we can see from this is that it's not an extreme set of circumstances, but they are just strong, smart things to do. And go back to the basics that Health Canada and health officials been telling us right across the country: if you feel like you are sick, don't go to hospitals, don't go to areas where you may infect other people -- call either your telehealth in Ontario or other such telephone services across the country. Contact the hospital by phone. Appropriate procedures will take place. And then continue to do things to keep your family safe. Wash hands, wash hands, and wash hands. And make sure that you sort of keep separated distance. And do all the smart things that the prime minister, I think, has shown to be wise. That this can be contained if we listen to doctors and follow good, strong medical advice coming from public health.

DM: Adam Vaughan, your government now calling on Canadians not to travel abroad. Restricting incoming flights from foreign countries. Why not close the border to people from affected places in the way that we're seeing in the United States?

AV: Well, I think that, you know, the virus doesn't respect the border. The real challenge in Canada now is not across the border, it's amongst each other. You know, we know that there are cases that are present here. We know that transmission is possible amongst Canadians who haven't even travelled. And you know, there about 400,000 people who come across the border every day. We know that that's dropping. Those numbers are dropping as people drop non-essential travel. But we also to get Canadians home from places where healthcare systems aren't as strong -- and get them back here into communities with their families. So we have to manage this. And I think that, you know, we're following the right advice. If closing the borders was what the medical professionals advise us to do, you can be sure we'd act on that.

DM: Let me ask you about the economy. I mean, the finance minister has now announced that you're offering up money to prop up the banks. The Governor of the Bank of Canada made another interest rate cut, the second in as many weeks. So how worried are you that COVID-19 is sinking this country into recession?

AV: Look the economic impact is already being felt. I represent a riding in downtown Toronto, which has a large number of restaurants and hotels and the convention centre. And we know that events and trips are being cancelled as people listen to the advice not to travel unnecessarily. And so there will be an economic impact. And one of the things that a restaurant association member reached out to me with was "What can you do about mortgage payments and debt repayment?" We know that many of the service industry models, especially in the restaurant sector, operate on very thin margins of profit to keep going. One of the reasons we're working with the banks is to try and take a look at how we can make sure we don't trigger or create a domino effect in this sector. So we've got to work with large financial institutions. But we also have to be very smart about the fact -- and we've already taken steps here around employment insurance to make sure that people that need to self-isolate or quarantine, that they get the economic support they need to make sure they don't skip a mortgage payment or a rent cheque. And we also have to make sure that we understand, and we do understand this and have been working on this for a number of days now and we'll have new information shortly. The people who are beyond the reach of employment insurance in some sectors of the economy, that's a very high number that income supports and supports for those people to take sick leave is also present.

DM: So last question for you. What kind of world would you say Canadians should be getting ourselves ready for two weeks from now, two months from now?

AV: Look, I am not going to project or guess at where this is going. And I think that that's one of the things that we have to be very smart about. You know, I was a reporter in the city of Toronto covering municipal politics when SARS came through. And that situation evolved with alarming speed. And one of the things that I learned from that experience is to really lean into public health officials and follow their advice and not to get carried away with speculation or sort of rumors, because that's exactly the kind of response that creates situations which are even harder to control. I know that there are a lot of calls coming for different parts of the country. For example, I've been working as part of my job as parliamentary secretary with the homelessness sector, which is a group of people that are in a very precarious position, and that we have to think about as a community as well. These sorts of conversations are happening. The preparations are well underway and we're being smart about how we respond to specific issues as they arise using, as I said, the best scientific advice possible, the best medical advice and the best public health approaches as possible and making sure that we're working with all our governments, Indigenous, municipal, provincial and territorial to protect Canadians and make the right decisions in the right way. But as I say, and I'll stress this again and again, public health officials are on top of this. We have some of the finest minds in the world working on this as Canadians around these sorts of issues. Listen to public health officials. Trust public health officials. And you can rest assured that all government members, all parties, all actors in the political realm are making sure that good science guides our direction. And I think that's what should give Canadians confidence that we'll get through this together. And for those people who are in isolation now, please know your communities are there to help you.

DM: We'll leave it there. Thank you for your time.

AV: You're welcome.

CH: Adam Vaughan is a Liberal MP and Parliamentary Secretary. We reached him in Toronto.

COVID-19: Vancouver resellers

Guest: Douglas Quan

CH: Governments may be taking more restrictive measures. But at some big box stores, it's the Wild-West. As residents prepare for the possibility of quarantines, they're stockpiling the essentials. That's leading to long lineups and empty shelves. Douglas Quan saw it himself at a Vancouver Costco this week. He's a reporter with the Toronto Star's B.C. bureau. Last night, his story about Lysol wipes spread quickly online and sparked outrage. We reached Douglas Quan in Vancouver.

DM: Doug, you were in the Costco parking lot on Wednesday. Can you describe the scene you stumbled on?

DOUGLAS QUAN: Yes. So I went down there originally for a completely different story. I'd gone down there with the intention of talking to shoppers about this notion of panic buying that we've been hearing all about. But before I even got to the front entrance, I stumbled across this couple who were loading up the back of their Ford pickup truck with these stacks and stacks of Lysol disinfecting wipes. And naturally, that piqued my curiosity. And so I approached them and started chatting with them.

DM: So stacks and stacks -- like a how many Lysol wipes containers are we talking about here?

DQ: Easily hundreds. Costco has these large orange trolleys that you can see customers pushing in and out of the store. Well, they had two of those. And each trolley was easily stocked with about half a dozen of these stacks of six packs of disinfecting wipes.

DM: And were there other people witnessing it at the same time?

DQ: Yes, they were attracting a fair amount of attention from shoppers going in and out of the store. I wasn't the only person there that, you know, couldn't help but stop and stare. One woman came up and remarked, "Gosh, is that all for you?" Another woman came by and said, "Wow, someone's making a lot of money today." So clearly they were attracting a fair bit of attention.

DM: And you're, of course, a reporter. So you interviewed them. So what did they tell you about what exactly they were doing?

DQ: As they were loading up the pickup, I, you know, approached them and asked them what they were doing. And they were very candid with me. They said that they'd been doing this for about the last three weeks. They said they'd been doing this daily where they basically hit up all the Costco stores in the Vancouver area. They basically snap up as many Lysol disinfecting wipes and liquid cleaners as they can in one go, basically clearing out the shelves. You know, sometimes spending several thousand dollars at one store. They then load up the pickup truck, drive it home, unload it in their garage, and then sell these items at marked up prices on Amazon. They said that a typical six-pack wipe goes for $20 or so at Costco. They said they were able to sell it online for four times that amount for roughly $80.

DM: So did they give you any sense of how much money they've made so far? How many sales they've made?

DQ: So Mr. Ranga said that over the course of the last three weeks, he estimates they've put in about $70,000 in purchases. And out of that, he said they've made well in excess of $100,000 in sales. So not a bad profit at the end of the day.

DM: Wow. Did they have any sense of guilt or did they feel badly at all about stocking up on a supply that many people want to get their hands on?

DQ: I did on more than one occasion, you know, bring up this question of, you know there are going to be people out there who read this story and who are not going to take kindly to what you're doing. I don't think it would be a stretch to say that, you know, they were essentially kind of proud of this business venture that they had sort of seized upon. You know, Ms. Perez remarked that they are a couple who sees an opportunity and jumps on it. She repeatedly said "Supply and demand. It's all about supply and demand." And Mr. Ranga called me out of the blue yesterday to notify me that following Donald Trump's public address the other night, the demand online for his cleaning products had shot up. And that's why he had increased his price from about $75 to $89 to sort of take advantage of that.

DM: Which begs the question, I mean, if there are people who are gouging, what are the companies doing to try to cope with that? Did you find anything out?

DQ: So we made multiple attempts to reach out to Costco. They did not respond to our queries. It has been reported in the last few days that Amazon has been taking steps to crack down on what they described as so-called "bad actors" -- people who were profiting from the sales of these basic household goods. What they're doing is not illegal in Canada. But what we did find from our reporting is that Japan has recently taken steps to crack down on people who are profiting from the reselling of facemasks, which, as you know, is another sort of hot commodity right now.

DM: What did you hear from your readers about the story after it was published?

DQ: Well, the story has gone viral. The prevailing sentiment online has been not so kind to this couple. And according to this couple, when I interviewed them on Wednesday, they said that the store that we were at actually did come up to them -- the store managers came up to them and said, you know, as of tomorrow, we're going to be limiting what you can buy.

DM: When you spoke with them and interviewed them, they called themselves "hustlers." I wonder, have you heard from them since?

DQ: I did receive a short text message from Mr. Ranga late last night after the story was published. And it basically said people are writing very crazy things now. And he had a sad face emoticon after that. But I've not engaged him for the conversation as of this morning.

DM: Douglas, thank you very much for sharing the story with us.

DQ: You're welcome.

CH: Douglas Quan is a journalist at the B.C. Bureau of the Toronto Star. Amazon has now responded. It has removed the couple's account from its site. The company went on to say, "We are disappointed that bad actors are attempting to artificially raise prices on basic need products during a global health crisis." For more on the story, go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Christchurch Shooting Anniversary

CH: Sunday will mark the first anniversary of the mosque shootings in Christchurch, New Zealand, in which 51 people were killed. And today, hundreds of people gathered in one of the country's largest arenas for a prayer meeting. Worshipers from the two mosques that were targeted in the shootings attended the event. So did Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern, who said more needs to be done to prevent future acts of violent hatred in New Zealand.

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JACINDA ARDERN: A year on, I believe New Zealand and its people have fundamentally changed. I can't see how you could have an event like this and not. But the challenge for us will be ensuring that in our everyday actions and every opportunity where we see bullying, harassment, racism, discrimination, calling it out as a nation. That is when we'll show that we each individually have a role to play and making sure New Zealand has fundamentally changed for the better. I think the awareness, the knowledge, the understanding that was built between New Zealanders and our New Zealand Muslim community has been really clear to me in the days that followed, the weeks and the months. And that in large part is because the community opened their doors. I had New Zealanders telling me that they'd visited a mosque for the first time or had conversations about faith with those they were visiting with. And that in itself was a way that I think many were changed by what happened on that day. Does it mean, however, that we have reached awareness across the country? Does it mean that we have removed discrimination from our community? Absolutely not. But I would like to think that there is growing common resolve amongst New Zealanders that we wish to be defined by what we are not as much as by what we are. And that, I think, is more pronounced than ever as a result of March 15.

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CH: That was the Prime Minister of New Zealand, Jacinda Ardern, speaking at a prayer meeting today. Sunday will be the first anniversary of the Christchurch mosque shootings.

[Music]

Reading: Son of a Trickster

CH: It took Eden Robinson eight years to write "Son of a Trickster." And three years after it came out, the buzz still hasn't died down. The coming-of-age novel tells the story of Jared, an Indigenous teenager who sells marijuana cookies and tries to keep his dysfunctional family from falling apart while dealing with some magical apparitions on the side. It was shortlisted for the 2017 Scotiabank Giller Prize. It's being adapted into a TV series and it's one of five books up for this year's Canada Reads crown next week. The novel is heartbreaking, spooky, and hilarious. And while Jared's life often feels utterly out of control, there are peaceful moments, too, like this childhood memory read aloud by Eden Robinson.

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EDEN ROBINSON: Jared hadn't been on a ferry since he was a baby and he was so excited when he saw it, he bounced up and down, clapping. Driving inside was like being swallowed by a giant whale, like in the stories his babysitter Barbie read to him from the Bible. His dad grabbed a backpack and slung it over his shoulder before tucking Jared under his arm like a football. They crammed into the elevator with other sleepy passengers. His dad sat Jared on his shoulders. His mom rested her head against his dad's arm.

"It's okay, Hon," his dad said.

They found some seats, but Jared whined to go onto the deck and his dad agreed to take him while his mom set up their sleeping bags on the floor. The wind was cold and the ferry gave a toot before pulling away from the terminal. Jared covered his ears until he was sure it was the only toot. The lights sparkled on the black water. The mountains were giant black lumps against the starry sky.

The ferry rounded a point and Jared's dad lifted him up so he could say goodbye to Bella Bella. The buildings and streets looked different from the ferry. He waved.

"Goodbye to all that," his dad said.

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CH: Eden Robinson is the Haisla and Heiltsuk author of "Son of a Trickster." The novel will be defended on Canada Reads next week by Mohawk actor Kaniehtiio Horn. The debates get underway on Monday. And you can find out more about all the contenders at: cbcbooks.ca.

[Music]

Spaghetti with scissors

Guest: Dean Prince

CH: It's a fascinating clip to watch. Then there's another. And another. It is a clip full of clips. And ultimately it's an act of sheer genius. Since his wife posted a video of his unique approach to spaghetti eating, Dean Prince of Bonavista, Newfoundland, has been hailed for his inventive style in which he abandons the usual forks, swirl and slurp, and opts for another kitchen tool at the dinner table. We reached Dean Prince in Bonavista.

DM: Dean, let's cut to the chase here. Can you describe your spaghetti eating technique?

DEAN PRINCE: Well, for one thing, I am a fast eater. I like to just consume my food fast. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I don't fiddle on the plate with it. I just like to eat it fast. One day, my wife made spaghetti, a couple of weeks ago. And I was working. I was in a rush. I had to get my supper and out the door again. So when I went to grab a fork, I saw the scissors there. So I said well that will make this a lot easier -- very quick now, right. So I just grabbed the scissors, I sat myself down, snipped one off, and just shoving it down and snipping it off.

DM: Describe it for me how you use the scissors, Dean.

DP: Well, just pick it up with the fork and just take the scissors and go into the spaghetti and just snip it off and then you got a bite-size spaghetti and let 'er rip. [Chuckles]

DM: You let 'er rip. Some people usually use a fork and a spoon. You don't like doing that?

DP: Well that's how I eat I suppose if you've got time to do it. But I just wanted to quickly get out the door. You know what I mean?

DM: I've got so many questions, Dean. Do you have a special pair of scissors that you use for your task?

DP: No. Well those were clean scissors. They were in the kitchen drawer. And they are hardly used for anything other than cut a bit of paper or something like that. Right. And I did wash them off before I used them. [Chuckles] Yeah.

DM: So it seems you said the eat quickly. I noticed in the video that there was a bit of spaghetti on the table. It seemed a little messy. Isn't it supposed to make it cleaner?

DP: Well, yes, I guess if you take your time eating -- when I'm a little slower. But I was trying really fast. But most times when I don't use the scissors, I got -- probably -- sauce up on my glasses. I think that was a little cleaner for me by using the scissors.

DM: Okay. [Laughs] So tell me, why did your wife decide it was a good idea to put this on Facebook?

DP: Well she thought it was funny. Once she saw me doing it, she thought it was funny. And I got three daughters who live out of town. So she decided to tape it off for just to send to my daughters the video of their father eating like a shark or whatever. Right. And anyway, then she said, I want to put them on Facebook. Now I am a guy -- I don't put nothing on Facebook. Not usually. Right. And she asked me, could she put it on Facebook? First I said, no. An hour later, she asked me again, I must have been in a good mood and I said yes. Put it on there if you want to put it on there. No big deal. The boys will get a laugh out of it. Anyway, it took off from there. Ever since then, people have reached out from pretty much all over the states anyway.

DM: Dean it really took off. I mean, there've been over 15 million views of this video of you eating spaghetti with scissors. [Laughs] What do you make of all that response?

DP: I don't know. Like to me, like I don't know. I don't see what everybody sees. But obviously somebody got a pretty good kick out of it in seeing me doing what I was doing. And it is all for a bit of fun, right?

DM: It's also a bit divisive. I read one tweet that said people who cut food with scissors are psychopaths. What do you think of that?

DP: [Laughter] I don't know. Everybody has got a different opinion on it, right. Like I've had people say I was a genius. I have had somebody else saying, well, I wouldn't want to sit across the table from him because I might get a noddle and lose an eye, she said. If you get a flying noodle it might take my eye out. Everybody has got an opinion, right.

DP: Do you think other people are going to start adopting your technique, Dean?

DP: Yes, I do, because I saw Kurt Angler -- that's the wrestler. I seen him on Facebook doing it after I'd done it. And he was copying off from me there. Which is good. It's great. I'm glad to see that stuff. And I know that there's a lot of kids out there now that when they have spaghetti they want a pair of scissors like the guy on the Internet. They said, right.

DM: And are there any other meals that you'd like to try to work your scissors into?

DP: Yeah, probably cabbage someday. You never know. [Chuckles]

DM: Cabbage?

DP: Yes, sir. When I have cabbage. You never know because I might use the scissors to chop my cabbage.

DM: [Laughs] All right Dean. We'll look forward to that video.

DP: Yeah. Okay then.

DM: You take care.

DP: You too. Thanks a lot.

CH: Dean Prince is a Bonavista, Newfoundland local, who's now famous for a video in which he eats his spaghetti with scissors. We reached him in Bonavista. And you can find more, including video evidence of Mr. Prince's scissors spaghetti eating technique at: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Part 2: COVID-19: Italy singing

COVID-19: Italy singing

Guest: Marianne Monte Santo

CH: Tonight, all across Italy, people joined together in song without leaving their homes. At 6 o'clock, residents open their windows and sang from their balconies. 60 million residents have been under lockdown since Monday. 15,000 people are infected with COVID-19, and more than 1,200 people have died. Here's what it sounded like in journalist Jessica Phelan's Rome neighbourhood today.

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[People singing and playing instruments]

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CH: Small towns joined the sing along, too. Earlier tonight, we reached Marianne Monte Santo.

DM: Marianne, can you tell us where are you right now?

MARIANNE MONTE SANTO: Yeah, I'm in Siena. I'm in downtown. Every window you walk by there is somebody that is playing like their own little music. We've got Gloria being played just above me right now.

DM: You're standing in the street and listening to music. Why is it happening?

MARIANNE MONTE SANTO: Because everybody all over Italy, they've decided that at six o'clock they were going to you know, maybe even just get rid of this cabin fever that, you know, everybody's feeling it. Just kind of say, you know, enough of this coronavirus. Let's start singing maybe it will go away [laughs]. Probably something like that. Like I said, I've got Gloria being sung just above me. Hey Jude was just down the street from me. I'm moving around to see if there are other people outside the windows. They are just making -- like just a lot of music, even just with pots and pans too. I hear a tambourine [laughs] down here. I'm going to go down towards the social club of my district so I can kind of hear them singing.

DM: As you're walking, Marianne, let me ask you a question. So these are people who are playing outside of -- they're stepping out on their balconies. They're playing outside their window.

MARIANNE MONTE SANTO: Outside their window.

DM: Because Italians aren't allowed to leave their homes right now. Is that right?

MARIANNE MONTE SANTO: That's right. Except for a very special reasons. [Talking to someone on the street] I have my friend here who said she's going to sing again. There's somebody further down that's singing opera.

DM: Maybe you just get a little bit closer if you could, Marianne.

MARIANNE MONTE SANTO: Okay. Well, it's hard because they are high up [chuckles]. [Hey Jude being played in the distance] Were you able to hear that?

DM: I can hear that. That's a pretty popular song. Maybe you could just let it go for a little bit longer.

MARIANNE MONTE SANTO: [Hey Jude being played] Oh well, I thought maybe we would have -- a lot more people would be out and about doing it. But I guess Siena is a pretty kind of quiet town.

DM: When you hear people singing, Hey Jude, what's going through your head?

MARIANNE MONTE SANTO: Well, I mean, I know she's my neighbour, so I know her. And, you know, it's uplifting, I must say, because for most of the day all the windows are closed because people seem to think that they can't even open a window. So when I see my friends opening her window and with her little tambourine singing Hey Jude, in a kind of the best way she knows how...it's quite uplifting, I must say.

DM: Marianne, thank you very much.

MARIANNE MONTE SANTO: Okay.

CH: Marianne Monte Santo spoke to us from Siena, Tuscany, earlier tonight. While, authorities in Italy have been racing to slow the spread of COVID-19, other countries are just catching up. Today, U.S. President Donald Trump declared a national emergency and has vowed to increase testing. Experts say that so far the U.S. has been woefully underprepared and under-resourced. Fox News host Martha MacCallum put those issues to a member of the White House coronavirus taskforce. Seema Verma was asked, several times, are hospitals ready to cope with COVID-19? But Ms. Verma kept distancing herself from the question.

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MARTHA MACCALLUM: How concerned are you that when these numbers do start to rise, which Dr. Fauci has told us to expect that they'll be enough ICU units, enough ventilators to help the people who do get sick in this country?

SEEMA VERMA: Well, that's why we have an emergency prepared system. You know, we were used to dealing with disasters. If we look at some of the disasters that have happened around hurricanes, there is a system in place to make sure that folks that are on the frontlines have the equipment and the supplies that they need.

MARTHA MACCALLUM: Are you saying that we do have...

SEEMA VERMA: We're doing at CMS -- to have rapid dialog with health care providers. So we're meeting with providers almost on a daily basis to understand what challenges are they facing and what can we do at the government level to support them and help them. And that's why we've been putting out so much guidance. Another thing we've really focused on...

MARTHA MACCALLUM: I understand that. But can I just ask you one more time, will there be enough...

SEEMA VERMA: ...making sure people understand, hey before you go into your doctor's office, you can call your doctor on the phone and have a discussion with them. They can tell you whether you need to come in or not. And that's really important because we don't want people having to travel unnecessarily if they're not feeling well. If they come into a health care facility, they could also be putting others at risk. And so we're encouraging people to call their doctor in advance. We're making sure that providers can use telehealth and telemedicine to serve their patients.

MARTHA MACCALLUM: We've made that point here quite a bit. I think it's a very important point to make. But before I let you go, I want to ask you one more time: are there going to be people in this country who don't get a ventilator if they need one? Are you concerned that the actual physical equipment that is needed to serve the people who will get sick is out there? Can you reassure everyone tonight that there is not a shortage of ventilators or ICU units?

SEEMA VERMA: And that's why the president has taken such a bold and decisive action. Right. We're not waiting for this to get worse. We're not waiting for this to be a crisis in our health care systems. And that's why the mitigation strategies that he announced last night, limiting travel from Europe, not allowing that -- you know, we've given travel advisories on cruise ships. That's why we're taking all of this action, because we don't want to put stress on the health care system.

MARTHA MACCALLUM: Okay. That's not a direct answer to the question. But it sounds like a hope that there won't be enough sick people and we won't run out of ventilators, because we have mitigated. And we certainly hope that...we certainly hope that's the case.

[/sc]

CH: Fox News anchor Martha MacCallum talking to Seema Verma, a member of the White House Coronavirus Taskforce last night.

[Music]

COVID-19 vaccine

Guest: Paul Hodgson

CH: There's a lot of bad COVID-19 news. But there are small pockets of good news too. Glimmers of hope and progress from labs around the world. The W.H.O. and the International Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness are hard at work. Universities, pharmaceutical companies and bio-techs are joining forces in search of treatments and vaccines. Scientists in Canada and elsewhere have isolated copies of the virus. And at the University of Saskatchewan, researchers have developed several trial vaccines that are now in animal testing. Paul Hodgson is the associate director of the vaccine and infectious disease organization VIDO-InterVac Lab. And we reached him in Saskatoon.

DM: Mr. Hodgson, what's happening at a facility like yours on a day like today?

PAUL HODGSON: It's incredibly busy, but also an incredible set -- a lot of pride in this because this virus, when it came out, it had to be classified by the government of Canada. The government of Canada classified it as requiring containment level three to work on it. So basically what that means is we have a very strict set of protocols to work on this virus, including personal protective equipment for the researchers and full suits with positive pressure air blowing over their hoods. And this is an example of this facility contributing to worldwide efforts to stop this pandemic.

DM: Yesterday, we heard Dr. Anthony Fauci, who's the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases in the United States. He told Congress that we're still 12 to18 months away from a vaccine. So could you explain why does this take so long?

PH: Sure. So I think what we have to do there is go back and look at how quickly this actually works. So if you go back to even the frontline medical staff in China, they had to recognize that this was a problem, that they were having a disproportionate number of people coming in with respiratory infection. This presents the same as many respiratory infections with fever, cough, etc. Once they realized that they had to get clinical samples. Once they got clinical samples, we had to determine what it was. In this case, it was a virus which they renamed. For current vaccine, what we tend to do is look at the genetic code of the virus because we can do that relatively rapidly. Then you have to generate an animal model of infection. So when you're testing whether a vaccine is effective, it generally requires something called a prime, which is your first dose and a boost which helps raise your immune response. And then you would actually see whether the animals are protected from the pathogen and then you would start to look at that. So not only you have to make the vaccine you're going to do, then you have to vaccinate the animals and then you have to see if the vaccine works. So that alone you're talking three months.

DM: What kind of animals are you using?

PH: So the animal model that we use is ferrets because they've been known to be useful for -- they were used in SARS. And they're able to replicate the virus and show some, at least in our hands, some gross pathology.

DM: And is there any indication at all how the ferrets are responding to the vaccines?

PH: Which is good right now -- they're healthy. So there's been no adverse reactions to the vaccine. But we are still not at the point that we would see whether the vaccine is effective against the virus.

DM: Clearly, Paul, this is a situation that is becoming quite dire. Is there an argument to be made at all that you could skip or speed up some of the animal testing, for example, skip some of the stages?

PH: Vaccines are still a type of medicine and safety is the number one thing. So at this point, I do not think there would be the ability to speed up the animal testing. What you could potentially do if you had appropriate manufacturing and you were very very confident -- it would be a large financial risk for a company is concurrently, as you're doing animal testing on a prototype vaccine, you would be starting to scale up, which is part of the vaccine manufacturing process.

DM: What would be a worst case scenario if you tried to speed it up and get this vaccine to market?

PH: You could have large adverse reactions to the vaccine for whatever reason. So we know that there's potential allergies to vaccine. We know in some things there is something called immune enhancement. So in the 60s, when an RSV vaccine came out, it stimulated the wrong type of immune response and the vaccine was not as effective or it actually made things potentially worse. So I think safety is the ultimate thing for any new medicine coming.

DM: So a good argument is to take this slowly and get it right.

PH: Absolutely.

DM: You're working alongside universities, pharmaceutical companies, bio-techs, all kinds of other agencies around the world. How do you coordinate all those international organizations?

PH: As best we can. We are a relatively small organization with an incredible amount of infrastructure. So we have ongoing collaborations with a lot of them. I'm a member of the Vaccine Industry Committee, so I have some direct contacts with at least the Canadian manufacturers. Vaccines have a very definite pathway, but there's other opportunities potentially with antivirals that might already be on the marketplace for a different pathogen that might show some level of effectiveness against this pathogen. So their pathway would be much faster.

DM: Paul Hodgson, it seems pretty clear that we're not getting a vaccine anytime soon. So what do you think it's important for people to know in the meantime?

PH: Well, I'm not a public health physician, but I think follow what Dr. Theresa Tam -- the head of our public health agency -- says, which is for most people, this is a mild illness. If you have come in contact with somebody, you can self-quarantine. Don't panic. That's number one.

DM: You've mentioned don't panic. I think when people talk about a pandemic, the reaction from most people is to run away. But you mentioned that you have a sense of pride in your lab. So what's your reaction as a scientist, as a researcher, when there's an outbreak like this announced?

PH: So I think our first reaction, even though you're a trained scientist, everyone has that sort of guttural feel that, you know, you protect yourself. But we have groups like this. We've been proactive. We have these facilities that are working as hard and as quickly as we possibly can to ensure the safety of Canadians and the world.

DM: Thank you for telling us about your work.

PH: No problem.

CH: Paul Hodgson is the associate director of the Vaccine and Infectious Disease Organization at the University of Saskatchewan. We reached him in Saskatoon.

[Music]

John King

CH: Every year, he invites you to feast your eyes on a smorgasbord of coiffure. And every course is the salad course. For years, fans of hockey and hair have waited, combing the Internet for John King's annual video. But last year was supposed to be his last. Which is why a year ago on this program, my friend Jeff Douglas paid tribute to Mr. King.

[sc]

JOHN KING: You might've heard the salad days have come to an end. And after 10 years, this is the last video I'll be doing. So let's go out with a bang, shall we? Let's make this the grand flow-nally. Let's try that again. Grand flow-nally.

JD: That's the voice of John King. Ad executive. Minnesota native. Connoisseur — and ultimate arbiter — of hockey hair. Every year for the past ten years, Mr. King has uploaded a video of the year's "Minnesota State High School All Hockey Hair Team". During that televised tournament, every player from every team skates up to the camera, game face and game hair on. John King watches those clips, and judges the merits of their "salads" -- by which he means, their hairdos. Here are a few excerpts from the 2019 edition. We added the music.

[Music]

JOHN KING: Starting us off at number 10, we have the malted milk bowl from Blaine. It's a brown circle that's soft on the inside. I think we can all agree that's a whopper. At number eight, we call this look the Titanic because that's some iceberg lettuce right there, and you are the king of the world. At number six some killer flow from Lakeville, and this kid's not trying too hard. He's letting the game come to him. We call this the diamond in the fluff. Next New Ulm brings us the inboard motor. Big wake in back, so you can surf without a rope. And in the top spot, just some vintage hockey hair from Duluth East — gorgeous. That's some fabulous flow brother, wooo!

JD: John King, with his rundown of the best hairstyles at this year's Minnesota high-school hockey tournament. The highlights of the players with highlights. Over the decade he's been making these videos, Mr. King has coined other terms for fascinating hairdos: "the disinterested pompadour"; the "railroad baron"; and "Michelange-Flow" among them. But now, he's done with the salad course. His videos have been watched by millions, and raised more than 100 thousand dollars for charity. He told Minneapolis TV station KARE-11, "I didn't want to jump the shark. I one hundred percent would rather get out with people wanting more." He also said, quote, "I've used my 15 minutes of fame to be the guy who judges high school boys' hair. So, I've clearly horribly misplayed my hand." Unquote. Now he's just being self-deprecating. Sure, he did judge hair, I mean "salad" — but that was just the tip of the iceberg. Lettuce.

[/sc]

CH: My predecessor in this chair, Jeff Douglas, sending off John King, who said 2019 would be the last year he assessed coiffure quality. But then a hair salon chain in Bloomington, Minnesota, offered Mr. King a $25,000 charity donation to make a 2020 video. And he went from Mullet over to mulling it over. From so long to Salon. So without further ado, highlights from this year's 2020, Minnesota State High School All Hockey Hair team. And once again, we added the music.

[sc]

[Music]

JK: A side effect of rationing hand sanitizer is there were a lot of dirty mullets at the tournament this year. We call this look, the Crosby, Stills, Ernst and Young because there's a lot more rock and roll in front than there is in the back. At number eight, this kid's name is Canyon, luckily we can get over it with some Eagles wings. At number seven, we got a little shag carpet. They call this the moose pelt. At number five, we call this the Sinatra Salad. The my way mullet. Vinaigrette. He's had a few, but then again, too few to mention. What's that? You need a really big place to stay? Well, we call this the Hair B n B, and Jake left the key under the front mat. At number two from Lakeville, pure rock and roll, borderline reckless. Love the chaos. At number one, we have Colin from Delanoe. He's just a sophomore, but he must have a pretty good fake because he gets into the salad bar every night. Every night.

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CH: There you have it. John King rating Minnesota High School Players Hockey hair once again. And we've tweeted a link to that video @CBCAsItHappens.

[Music]

Part 3: Encore feature: author Barry Lopez on his book, Horizon

Encore feature: author Barry Lopez on his book, Horizon

CH: When he was a child, the American author Barry Lopez had a longing to explore places unknown to him. And for more than 50 years he's done that, traveling the world and recording what he sees. His most recent book, Horizon, is about what it's like to witness the effects of a changing climate from the Arctic to the Antarctic. And Mr. Lopez says there's a difference between knowing things are different and feeling it in your body. His observations are grim. He says, we're past the point of adaptation, but he does offer lessons on how humanity could still survive. This is an encore presentation of Carol's feature interview with Barry Lopez from April of last year.

[sc]

CO: Barry Lopez welcome to As It Happens.

CO: I'm glad you could be in our studio. And I want to begin where you begin which is this --well you talk about boys swimming in the Pacific Ocean, yourself and your grandson. But you yourself -- you describe this moment: you're three years old, you're up to your neck in the ocean, and there's something about that moment that tells you that you are going to be pursuing that horizon. What is it at that moment do you think that connects with you?

CO: But when you describe that you grew up in a world that was of men -- white men -- and had the same religion, same values, probably same everything. Many people if not most find a comfort in being within the familiar, of being with likeminded people. You never have obviously. You seem to feel more most comfortable in the unfamiliar. Why is that?

CO: But to put it -- I mean all of this being the case at the same time, he's not alone in that. I mean he's...

BL: Well you know I pay a lot of attention to readers because I see myself as an intermediary that's been to all of these countries and traveled to all of these places and met all of these people. And I don't think it has any value -- social value -- unless what comes out of it benefits the reader. If a reader can become immersed in a place that you've been to and you can just back out of the picture, I think that's the best thing. So it was a reader who sent this image that we're talking about -- Nicholas Rowe Rich's painting called "Remember." And far off on the right is what is apparently a mother and a daughter outside their house at the foot of the Himalayas and all the way over on the left is a man on a horse looking back to them. That moment of departure and his title "Remember" says to me whenever you leave remember where you came from, remember your people, remember what you mean by your life. So I said to my editor you know I know we're not going to go into colour printing for the book, but do you think we can do something with this image that was sent to me as a postcard by a reader I had never met. But when I got that card, I pinned it above my desk and I thought I know this is telling me something I need to know as I begin work on this book.

BL: I do all the time. And it's not just remembering where you come from, it's a more complex thought which is the man on the horse knows that he's leaving everything that defines him. And going off to an undefined place and has to ask himself: Why are you doing this? Are you just running away from the real centre of your life? Or are you going to bring something back that will help us? And the answer to it is that I care -- this will sound grandiose -- but I care what happens to us, I care what happens to my children and my grandchildren and my extended family, I care what happens to you and to other people in our world of communication and writing and radio and whatnot, and I want to be sure we're going to be okay. And I think all of us at some level are profoundly worried about our families and ourselves and how we're going to take care of each other because the world that is coming will challenge us more than humanity has ever been challenged.

BL: Well I had come up on the deck with the expectation that of course in the middle of summer up north is going to be light all the time. But I wanted to start my day in my imagination right by having my coffee and looking for birds. And this older couple that was there with me that I saw every morning weren't sipping their coffee and they didn't have their binoculars up. And I thought well why is that? And then I looked and I have read a lot of Arctic history and as I processed the ideas from the sleepyhead trying to wake up with my coffee I thought oh my God there's no history of going into Peel Sound without an icebreaker escort because there's no open water here. And all I could see was open water.

BL: It's a difference between being intellectually aware of a condition and then feeling it as an emotional blow. "Oh my god is it ever real. And it's right here in front of me." And I think that's one reason I travel as much as I do. I want to feel it in my body. If you don't travel or regularly look at newspapers from other countries you can fall into this trap of thinking well it's going to be okay -- we will be alright. And when you're traveling in sub-Saharan Africa you're thinking it would be better for people born here to be given a death certificate rather than a birth certificate because there's nothing there for them. And I don't think any of us can appreciate the scale on which humanity is running away from home for ecological reasons, for economic reasons, to avoid war. There are millions of people running to someplace else to be safe -- and look at the situation which of course Mr. Trump has turned into something of an idiot's joke, but there is plight in Central America and there people are looking for some place they've been led to believe is going to be safe for them and not only can they not get there but they are greeted by xenophobes and racists. So how are they going to explain that to their children? They can't. So if you get away from the comfort zone you at least have a chance to see what the bigger thing looks like. And I think what I was trying to do in Horizon is say things are not really good for humanity in this moment, and then supply the things that allow you to escape the confrontation for long enough to make up your own mind about what you can face and how are you going to take care of your family.

BL: That's right.

BL: Yes. And I say that because too many of us think of the mess that we're in as something that can be solved by industrial science or by elected governments. And now we see that that is not the case and will never be the case. The only way people will survive is by taking care of each other. And you can say 'well Barry that's really naive. You know the forms of government we have are all we have.' And my answer to that is no. It is not to turn your back on your own country or your own culture -- it's to realize that the indifference of methane gas pouring out of the tundra now, it's not interested in nation states and these other things that we look to for survival. It's absolutely indifferent to human survival. And everything I look at when I travel says take care of those who you are with and if you can take care of people you've never met.

BL: Yes.

BL: Yes.

BL: I loved the opportunity of it. And what I would tell you about my travel to Antarctica I guess is that I move almost entirely by intuition. I don't have a set of questions or something I'm trying to find. And of course if you travel like that you constantly lose your way but you also find situations that are not consciously defined for you but once you're in the middle of them you say 'oh I get why I always wanted to come here.' And that was the feeling I had in every trip I made to Antarctica.

BL: It was. Because you know a group of six of us left McMurdo base -- the American base on Ross Island -- and made this trip that was famous. Became famous in a book by Cherry-Garrard called "The Worst Journey in the World." And I said to my colleagues all of whom were -- we'd all been in Antarctica over a period of years -- and I said you know if we do it in summer it won't be the worst journey in the world, and the prize will be to go to Cape Crozier and watch these penguins. I just knew it intuitively. And we got there and the birds kicked language out of all of us. We just almost fell to the ground in silence and bathed in the reality of these indefatigable birds taking care of their young. The image was, over the period of time that we sat there, it was like sitting through a symphony. And it made us all feel alive. It made us want to touch each other, to show tenderness toward each other. Sure we were doing something and it was bloody cold and all the rest of it, but we felt awakened to our purpose in life. And we all in our different ways thought I want to bring this home.

BL: If you could do something that impossible, yes I do. The part that seems to be missing in modern culture is to get out of the self is to get out of the world where everything was made by human beings and understand what is my place in the enormous expression of beautiful life which was there with those penguins in Cape Crozier.

BL: Throughout the book there is a condemnation of exploitive discovery. But resentment is a kind of argument with reality. In this sense here is where we are and you know as the book opens in that chapter in Cape Foulweather where I'm trying to line out some of the themes of the book. I'm trying to encourage people to not spend all of their energy condemning the past. You have to own that past before you can imagine a viable future. So if (James) Cook or the others conquistadores did damage, that was their era. It's not our era. And we condemn it and we see the deep damage that it has done. Our object I think at the moment is to condemn the damage that their rightful heirs are creating, people like Putin for example. If we condemn that and find the best among us to imagine a radically different way of creating a different world in which to live I think we'll be alright.

BL: I never used to think about it and now I think about it all the time. If I describe a place and try to elevate it in prose, it's like an invitation to people to come and see it for themselves. I don't want that to happen. And I've been conflicted for years about how ethically responsible is it of me to create enough confusion in a beautiful evocation of a place so that people would never be able to find it.

BL: Well I'm just going to give you the answer that popped into my mind but what it says is, life is very dangerous, you'll be okay. I remember when my mother was dying of cancer in 1976 I brought her the first book that I published and I wanted her to have it. Although she was right at the end of her life in hospital. And so I handed her the book and explained what it was. She took it in her hands and turned it like an object. And then she rolled it over. I don't know if she was reading anything on the back of the book but it was an object and she wanted to get the feel of it. And then she hugged it to her chest and just held it there. And I'm standing right next to her. And then with her right hand she put her hand on my left forearm and said, "You'll be okay now." So that is what I think the ocean was saying to me that I am incomprehensible, I am vast and beyond your understanding and I'm going to show you as a little boy part of what I am and that is this Portuguese man o' war that's going to wrap itself around your little legs and make you very sick and very afraid and in great pain. But that's part of what I am. And the other part of me is going to reflect light into your face in ways that make you almost breathless with the beauty of what I do. But I am unknown and I will remain unknown. And part of what was attractive to me about James Cook is he got that. He understood that you're sailing across a mystery, don't make the mistake of reading a book while it's going on.

BL: I think that the diagnosis of terminal cancer made me feel more deeply tenderness toward other people and toward the world. It opened me up to be tender, be gentle, be kind to people. Everybody is going through something difficult and you must support and embrace them and be kind and not try to tell them what to do or own them. Just be gentle with them. So it turned out for me that that diagnosis was the kind of support I wanted when I sat down to write what I wrote in Horizon.

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CH: That was an encore presentation of Carol's interview with the writer Barry Lopez in the As It Happens studio. Mr. Lopez's book, Horizon, is published by Random House Canada.

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March 13 Episode transcript

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