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The Current Transcript for March 17, 2020

Host: Anthony Germain

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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VOICE: We are taking a whole of government approach and indeed a whole of Canada approach. The measures which the prime minister announced are essential to that effort.

ANTHONY GERMAIN: Canada's response to COVID-19 has escalated dramatically this week. As the federal government closes the border to non-residents, we're going to take a look at the complications and exceptions to that rule, most notably the decision not to include U.S. citizens. Public Safety Minister Bill Blair is coming up. Also today.

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VOICE: When I was a little boy and something bad happened in the news, my mother would tell me to look for the helpers. You'll always find people helping.

AG: You don't have to live in Mr. Rogers's neighbourhood to believe that that's true. Across this country, Canadians are pulling together, helping each other through this pandemic. We're going to share some of their stories with you today. But first, we start at the border, shut down for some, but not for all. I'm Anthony Germain, sitting in for Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

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Canadians abroad with potential COVID-19 symptoms will get 'enhanced consular support': Blair

Guests: Jonathan Bennett, Bill Blair, David Fisman

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VOICE: As the virus continues its spread, we've decided to take increasingly aggressive steps to keep you and your family safe. We will be denying entry to Canada, to people who are not Canadian citizens or permanent residents. Air operators will be required to complete a basic health assessment of every air traveller based on guidance from the Public Health Agency of Canada. This means that anyone who has symptoms will not be able to come to Canada.

AG: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced border restrictions yesterday and to many Canadians, they are sweeping and surprising. In a few minutes, we'll hear from Canada's Public Safety Minister about why the government decided to enact these measures, as well as a public health expert who says they might not do all that much to help. But first, for Canadians who happen to be overseas scrambling to try to get home, this situation is unsettling, to say the least. Jonathan Bennett is a student with the University of Alberta and he's been doing an internship in Kenya since last October and we've reached him in Nairobi. Good morning.

JONATHAN BENNETT: Good morning.

AG: So what was your reaction when you heard about Canada's new travel ban?

JONATHAN BENNETT: Honestly, pretty surprising. Everything has been changing quite dramatically and very quickly. My university asked me a few days ago to evaluate our situation wherever we were studying. And in Nairobi everything was fine and I expected to stay with no intention of returning home and that all changed pretty quickly come Friday and come the new updates and announcements.

AG: So as you well know, since you've been watching this with a certain level of keenness for a few days now, governments have been urging Canadians abroad to return home. How does that make you feel?

JONATHAN BENNETT: Well, I watched the news address yesterday from Prime Minister Trudeau, and he made it again, very, very clear that it's time for Canadians to come back and I think after getting that direction even before yesterday and getting the direction from both my home university, the University of Alberta, as well as you program the Aga Khan University here in Nairobi, both also urging us to return home to our countries. I discussed with some of the other interns that are here and we decided that it's likely the best thing to do.

AG: So when were you thinking you would actually have to come home? What were your original plans?

JONATHAN BENNETT: My original plan was to actually stay till June. I got here in October and it was an eight month contract. So I had, that's kind of, at first why I was like, you know, I don't have many intentions of returning home at this time because I'm going to be here for another few months. So it was supposed to be eight months, but it's obviously getting cut a little short now.

AG: Can you briefly tell me about this internship in Nairobi?

JONATHAN BENNETT: Yes. So it's an internship that's offered with the Aga Khan University and I'm specifically placed with their graduate school of media and communications. I'm helping with project support and kind of project management sort of things. I recently graduated with my Bachelor of Commerce degree and I did quite a bit of travelling while I was doing my undergrad and I wanted to go abroad for a longer period of time, you know, the eight month internship and it was actually a partnership through the Queen Elizabeth Scholars Program, a partnership with this Aga Khan University that got me out here.

AG: And now you have to come home. What's the situation like there?

JONATHAN BENNETT: To be honest, I'm speaking to you on the seventh floor of my office building where I work, looking outside of the streets and everything is completely calm here. The government recently did introduce some more measures where they're going to be closing the borders to non-citizens, really enhancing like sanitation procedures. We've noticed that everywhere we go with the hand sanitizer and everything like that, but I don't think there's as much of a, I know there's not as much for panic as there seems to be in North America. So to be honest, that made it a tough decision to return home when I'm looking here where everything is calm and people are not panicking, where I know I'm going to be going home and I have to self-quarantine for two weeks and I'm kind of getting myself into another unpredictable situation.

AG: Does that calmness strike you as being the calm before the storm or you think it's going to last?

JONATHAN BENNETT: No, to be honest with you. And I think part of the reason that I feel it is important to return home is because the situation is so unpredictable, that could change here in a matter of you know one or two days. So I think it honestly is the calm before the storm and hence, you know, I think why the Canadian government and our universities are urging us to return home while we still can.

AG: Right. And your option takes you through Europe, if I understand, via Frankfurt to Edmonton. Any concerns that you're flying through the epicentre of this pandemic?

JONATHAN BENNETT: I trust the airlines. I trust the airports that they're doing the best they can to come together and make sure that people are you know keeping their social distancing as much as possible. And, of course, it's a little bit worrisome. I'm not as worried personally for myself about getting sick. I'm more, the biggest concern for me is if I do contract virus, one way or another, would be actually, you know, infecting someone else or someone else who has a compromised immune system or someone who's elderly. Of course, why I know the self-isolation is that much more important to monitor.

AG: And if it is detected that you are sick before you get on a plane, apparently, according to the prime minister yesterday, you're not getting on that plane.

JONATHAN BENNETT: And I, you know, it's funny you say that because I messaged a couple my friends saying, thank goodness I'm not sick at this time and I hope, you know, I'll stay healthy for the next few days, but that again, just, you know, emphasizes the importance of getting home as soon as possible before things do change or escalate.

AG: Well, listen, Jonathan, safe travels. All the best.

JONATHAN BENNETT: I really appreciate it. Thanks so much.

AG: Jonathan Bennett is a University of Alberta student who is doing an internship in Kenya and we reached him in Nairobi. Now unlike Jonathan, people who are not citizens or permanent residents are no longer allowed to enter Canada and now there are a few exceptions, one notable one in particular. Bill Blair is Canada's Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness. Good morning.

BILL BLAIR: Good morning, Anthony.

AG: So the prime minister himself described these measures as aggressive. Why does the federal government believe these steps are necessary?

BILL BLAIR: We're prepared, as we've always said, to do what we believe is necessary to keep Canadians safe. And we've also monitored the fact that 87 per cent of the cases so far reported in Canada are directly linked to international travel. So we believe these steps will aid us in a much larger effort to slow down the progression of this disease, to flatten the curve as far our public health officials called it, in order to lessen the impact on Canadians and do our very best to keep them safe.

AG: You mentioned those international hotspots. The early cases of COVID-19 were certainly those, but until now, the government said closing the border wouldn't help. So give me a sense of what changed in the government's thinking.

BILL BLAIR: We're seeing as the disease has progressed and broken out into these other areas — for a considerable period of time, it was limited to some particular hotspots. Hubei, China, then Iran and then Italy. But what we're seeing now, the progress of the disease globally has become far, I think, a more difficult thing to manage. And again, we're following the advice of our public health officials and the WHO.

AG: Do you think that perhaps this step should've been taken sooner?

BILL BLAIR: No, I think, you know, again, we follow the advice of our public health officials. We have at all times, you know, enacted the measures that they have recommended and things that were important to keep them safe, but the illness — its presence globally — has continued to progress. And we have to react to that. And so we're monitoring it on an hourly basis and we are prepared to do the things that are advised and we've been preparing for several weeks. IAnd you know I think there are some additional steps that we will have to take as this illness and its impact on Canadians progresses, but we're trying to take a measured response and we're trying to act with some precision. And that's and the best way to do that is to respond to the advice that we are receiving from our public health experts, consulting with our international partners and also addressing concerns that Canadians have.

AG: When you mentioned consulting with our international partners, obviously United States, very special relationship between the USA and Canada. But given the number of cases south of the border, what's the point of travel restrictions if they don't apply to U.S. citizens?

BILL BLAIR: Well, let's be really clear. We have said to all Canadians that they should avoid non-essential travel entirely and certainly non-essential international travel. We told Canadians who are currently abroad and we know many of them, a lot of our seniors, the snowbirds are down south. We're encouraging them all to get home on commercial flights or otherwise as quickly as possible, because we think that that's in their best interest. You know, we're concerned for them and frankly, every Canadian has a right of return and we're just encouraging them now's the time to get home. I've been consulting with the Americans very extensively on this, and they're also recommending to their citizens, discouraging non-essential travel. But we've had a number discussions about, you know our economies are fully integrated and, you know, a lot of our food and other supply lines come across that international border each day. And so we're trying to again act in a measured and responsive way to keep our citizens safe. I'm quite certain that if the situation calls for it and the advice of our public health officials is to do more, we're prepared to do more.

AG: Let's move things along here. Under these new regulations, anybody with COVID-19 symptoms, Canadians included, are not going to be allowed to board a flight to Canada. You mentioned a moment ago that you think Canadians have a right to return. So if you're a Canadian abroad and you're feeling sick, you're trying to get home, what are your options?

BILL BLAIR: Well, a number of things. First of all, I think we're asking the airlines, is not to board sick people and under normal circumstances, they would not do that anyway. But what we want Canadians to do, if they are symptomatic and therefore they're unable to travel, that we're putting in place, you know, very significantly enhanced consular services so that we assist those Canadians to deal with their illness, to get access to quality healthcare in place and shelter in place. If an ill person, Canadian or otherwise, get on that plane then the other 250 people on the plane would be put at risk.

AG: But who determines, who determines if it's actually COVID-19? I mean, I suspect that the check-in counter, you know, my baggage is one thing, but I'm not sure if the airline personnel or the people to make that determination.

BILL BLAIR: Airlines already have their own rules with respect to boarding passengers who might be ill and who would represent a risk to others. There's a number of precautions that they are required to take. But I think out of an abundance of caution, if someone is obviously symptomatic, they shouldn't be getting on a crowded plane for several hours and exposing all of the other passengers to that illness. We've also put arrangements in place that if somebody is symptomatic on the plane, we've asked the airlines to alert us before the plane lands, so that those individuals who are showing symptoms can be met at the gate, separated from the rest of the passengers and referred into our public health streams.

AG: Do you have any concerns, Mr. Blair, some legal experts saying that forbidding Canadians who are ill from entering might actually be a violation of their constitutional rights? Or do you know, that would take ages for that to get through the court, so it really doesn't matter?

BILL BLAIR: Well, let me be really clear. We're not forbidding them from entering into the country. What we are discouraging is that they would get on a crowded plane and make others ill. And under those circumstances, we'll provide them with consular services in whatever country they happen to be in, and assist them in obtaining health care and to deal with the illness where they are, rather than expose 250 other Canadians to the illness on the plane. But if they're able to come to Canada, they have a right of re-entry and in fact, we're encouraging people to come home now well before they're ill.

AG: This is the interesting thing about living in a confederation, I suppose. You've got a different response at the provincial, municipal, federal level. The city of Montreal, the province of Alberta, Nova Scotia, they all sent their own officials to the airports because they're a bit concerned about the lack of a federal screening protocol. What kind of message are people getting now when they come back compared to the beginning of this thing?

BILL BLAIR: I will tell you that the screening that has been taking place at our airports was exactly aligned to the advice and the direction that was being given by our public health officials. But that advice has become, I think, more urgent as the disease is progressing globally. And on Sunday, for example, the public health clearly advised all Canadians, strongly recommended that they enter into self isolation. And so we actioned that immediately. And what's now happening at the airport is every traveller who's coming from abroad is now given advice to and when they come through, they're given health advice, they're given a pamphlet and they're screened for health. They are all asked if they are symptomatic and asked specifically about the symptoms of this illness.

AG: Some infectious disease experts say that beyond the travel restriction that we've been discussing, the government should also introduce measures to enforce social distancing, particular with respects to crowds. I mean, almost take a Singapore type of example and limit, mandate the crowd size. Is that something that the government would do?

BILL BLAIR: Well, right now, I know public health just has issued a number of advisories. A number of days ago, they asked people to limit crowd sizes to about 250 in their events. Public health has now updated that advice to limit crowd events to 50. I think it's good advice. I think the overwhelming majority of Canadians are taking our advice. You know, we're actually seeing very good and very socially responsible activities among Canadians as they are taking the steps. I think people have grasped the urgency of doing what is necessary to keep themselves and their families safe.

AG: I think it's been mentioned just to wind this down, that this is a kind of time where you see the best in people and the worst in people. We've seen people helped, but on the on the bad side, you have some reports of anti-social behaviour, people clearing out the pasta shelves. I went to a grocery store here in Toronto last night and the shelves were bare. Some stores accused of price gouging. There's online scams. As the number of cases rise in Canada, how concerned are you about social cohesion as it relates to our public safety?

BILL BLAIR: You know, I think there will always be incidents Anthony of people who will try to take advantage of the vulnerable. I think there's also activities in some people that indicate a little bit of panic and panic hoarding. For example, people going out and somewhat irrationally hoarding things that they aren't really going to need. But I think what we're also observing is in many ways the threat of this illness is bringing Canadians together, to do, I think it's the values of our nation to look out for each other.

AG: We're going to keep our eyes on this, obviously, as are you. I appreciate your time this morning. Thank you very much.

BILL BLAIR: Thank you, Anthony.

AG: Bill Blair is Canada's Minister of Public Safety. Dr. David Fisman has been watching the containment measures closely. He's a professor of epidemiology at the Dalla Lana School of Public Health at the University of Toronto. Dr. Fisman, welcome to The Current.

DAVID FISMAN: Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

AG: How effective do you think these restrictions are actually going to be?

DAVID FISMAN: Well, look, I think Minister Blair is a remarkable person, and I'm a big fan and I understand the constraints they're under. But please don't make any mistake, our major source of case importation, as has been clear for the last couple of weeks in Canada, is the United States. We've had cases from Florida, we've had cases from Colorado. At times when those states themselves didn't really register as having outbreaks because of the problems with testing south of the border, that is, closing off the border with the United States, I think is politically and economically a non-starter, and I think that's reflected in the guidance from the federal government. And that's as it should be. But that means that by, you know, sealing ourselves off for most of the world, except for this very large country that we live right next to that has uncontrolled transmission of COVID, we're not going to keep COVID out of the country. So what we need to do is we need to start moving towards how we are going to control spread within Canada, acknowledging that we're going to continue to import cases from what's likely an extremely large epidemic in the United States.

AG: Well, if this pandemic is actually percolating in the United States, I suppose it's not inconceivable that the measure to close the border to American travellers could come, but maybe it'll be too late.

DAVID FISMAN: Yeah, well, no, I think so. And and I don't think it's percolating. I think it's raging. I think you just can't see it because they've had a bit of a mess with their testing. There are a variety of different metrics that we don't. Need to get into nor do you have time nor interest to get into that suggests that the US probably is well up into the tens of thousands of cases and likely higher than that. Look, I want to focus on on on two things that the minister said because I think they're important and I think they're places where I think the government, the federal government has been amazing to date. I think they can do better. But I think there are two key things that they need to change. One is the minister said that they they are asking Canadians to do X and Y and said it's past time to start telling Canadians there's a basis for that in public health statutes in every single province. We can no longer rely on good citizenship and saying pretty please for people to do the right thing. Our medical officer of health here in Toronto, Dr. Eileen Davila, has used those powers now to close down bars and restaurants and theatres to prevent gatherings. I think that's the right thing to do. This is not a matter of good citizenship. This is a matter of how human beings behave predictably in the face of crisis. And it's time to use some of the levers that the state has at its disposal to change how people are acting. The second thing that I think is problematic in terms of the minister's description of the response, and I think this is not a Canada problem. It's not a U.S. problem. It's not an Italy problem. It's a human problem. This is how humans roll is he said, look, we're monitoring the situation carefully and we are reacting as the data are updated or something like that. I don't want to put words in his mouth. He said they're watching very carefully and they're making policy changes based on the numbers they see. The difficulty with COVID-19 is that there are legs baked into surveillance systems. So if you are reacting to the numbers you see today, you're already too late because those transmission events, probably by the time you see a case, by the time someone presents with significant illness, they were infected two weeks ago. Now, this thing has what we call a serial interval in epidemiology. That's basically that generation time between generations of cases of about a week. So that's two doubling time apart. By the time you're making decisions based on the cases you see today, the epidemic has then doubled and doubled again, but you can't see those cases yet.

AG: Right. So that two weeks that it takes for the illness to manifest itself, within that period, that infected person has infected other people.

DAVID FISMAN: Right and that infected person and the other people who you missed, the other people you didn't see, let me see, this is probably too much math for early morning radio. But let's do it. Let's say we start with three deaths, okay, which is, this has happened in a bunch of places. People say, oh, you know, COVID doesn't seem to be a big deal, but oh, my goodness, now, all of a sudden in our community we have three deaths. We think case fatality for this thing is two or three percent, let's say 3 percent to make the math easy. Those three deaths came from 100 cases from three weeks ago. Those hundred cases made another two hundred, so that's 300. Those 200 new cases made another 400. So 400 plus 300, 700. Those 400 made another 800. So that's, those three deaths, if you're reacting at the time that those three deaths happened and you say, oh, my goodness, it's here, you've already missed 1500 cases that where transmissions already occurred. So nothing you do today changes that. Right? You can't travel back in time and prevent those transmission events. You can change things moving forward, but that's why I've been sounding like a bit of a broken record for some time now, saying the time to react, the time to respond proactively, not reactively, because by the time you're reacting to the data you see, it's too late and you've missed the boat. I don't know what it will take to get folks with decision making kind of levers to listen to that or to understand that. I don't think it's a politician problem, I think.

AG: It's a human problem as you put it.

DAVID FISMAN: There's difficulty understanding this with some of our public health experts.

AG: Dr. Fisman, you have made a very focussed analytical case. I'm sorry to have to cut you off, but we have to go. We appreciate your time.

DAVID FISMAN: It's a pleasure. Thank you for having me on.

AG: Dr. David Fisman, professor of epidemiology. The CBC News is next. And then how social distancing may actually be bringing us all together. I'm Anthony Germain. You're listening to The Current.

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This med student can't join the frontline COVID-19 fight, so he's offering childcare to those who can

Guests: Dennis Darby, Michael McCain, Renee Vaugeois, Katelyn Bourgoin, Daniel Lee

AG: Hello, I'm Anthony Germain and you're listening to The Current.

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AG: Still to come, pandemic at the movies.

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VOICE: For your safety, please avoid contact with family members and restrain from the following: all terms of endearment.

AG: Now, to be clear, Hollywood is not a reliable source for medical advice, but there are many movies that actually show some insight into COVID-19. More on that in half an hour. But first, how Canadians are stepping up and pulling together.

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VOICE: An open letter from Canadian business leaders. The organizations and employers we represent compete fiercely every day. Today, we stand united in a shared battle against COVID-19. While this will have significant economic impact on our businesses in the short term, it is critical to weathering the storm and will hasten the recovery.

AG: It's an unusual show of solidarity from Canadian business owners. Normally, in competition with one another, more than 100 employers signed an open letter vowing to fight COVID-19, together. Dennis Darby is the president and CEO of Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters, and Michael McCain is the president and CEO of Maple Leaf Foods. Hello to you both.

MICHAEL MCCAIN: Good morning.

DENNIS DARBY: Good morning.

AG: Gentlemen, before we get into this cooperation, I do need to ask you about a developing story in Ontario. Of course, very important place for businesses, for the country. Doug Ford set to announce the details of a state of emergency. Don't want to put you on the spot necessarily, but what's your sense of the significance of a development like this? Mr. McCain?

MICHAEL MCCAIN: Well, I think it's really important that we all accept and recognize that this is an emergency in our public health and we need to respond accordingly. So, you know, I think all of us recognize that the community has to behaves and has to act together. Clearly, that means sacrifice along the way, but Canadians have a long history of collaborating and working together to support each other and in this case, there is absolutely no room for complacency. None. And whether it's the government leaders or business leaders, we all have to set the tone here that to deal with this public health crisis, it's absolutely critical that we act with pace, with urgency and act now and precisively. So I support that.

AG: And you've taken some action, gentlemen, being part of these 100 people who've signed this open letter. So, Mr. Darby, let me ask you. Why was this an important step?

DENNIS DARBY: Well, for a couple of reasons. First of all, because as Michael said, you know, this is a public health crisis and it can have a huge ramifications on our economy, which means on millions and millions of jobs as well, ultimately. And so we, it was made total sense for us to work together to make sure everyone is following the best current practices as directed by public health. You know everything from working from home where you can, but in the sector that Mr. McCain and I represent, which is manufacturing, it's critical that we're able to get our employees to work to produce the goods, the food, the medicine, the products that people need through this crisis. So it's important that we do everything we can in the community to make that possible, to limit the spread, because, you know, people that work in a manufacturing plant or deliver goods to grocery stores or retail stores, they need you know, they need to have some protection. So I think it makes total sense. As Michael said, we have to all work together.

AG: And Michael McCain, give me a sense of what steps that you're taking in your own organization to try to flatten this curve of this infectious illness.

MICHAEL MCCAIN: Well, we began last week, actually with a rather extreme measures for social distancing and isolation inside the organization wherever possible. Basically, that means we're where we can and a surprisingly large number of our population can actually work from home very, very efficiently and effectively leveraging technology and other means. So we started that last week and it's been very effective. We've got pretty extreme measures around. No visitors, no visitation, no meetings, cancelled, anything where people had to socialize or any group, large groups of any consequence. No in-person meetings. So we've done all that where we possibly can. Obviously, as was suggested, we you know, keeping the food system secure is a very important objective in these times. We we are very fortunate in Canada to have a safe, secure and plentiful food system, but we need to keep it that way. And so we're also finding new and more protective ways to operate the physical infrastructure of our supply chain to both keep our people safe and the and the physical supply chain functioning. What's what's really important to recognise that in any in the operating environment, in our food system today, we have a a nearly surgical clean environment to begin with, where people come to work every day, be for food safety reasons, fully isolated, washing their hands multiple times during the day. They're in full kind of surgical gear with face protection. So all of that already exists, but we are extending that to ensure the social isolation and social distancing in the non-operating environment.

AG: Mr. Darby, with respect to manufacturers and exporters, what are you hearing from your members about how challenging this must be? Because obviously if you can't have meetings, you can't get together, you can't travel. I guess you're finding other means to keep businesses functioning. What are they telling you?

DENNIS DARBY: I think well, first of all, we've heard from our from our members, of course, everyone is using all the electronic means, we have to do their business they have to do. It's causing some delays, but what we've heard from most manufacturers is so long as the supply chains, because we're so integrated with the U.S. supply chains of goods, materials and parts, food ingredients can cross the border effectively and able to get into and then we're able to have a distribution system, I think it's going well. I think there's a lot of pressure on us, particularly small and medium sized businesses who are facing delays, who may face production or input shortages. And I think as we've heard from the government, they've done a lawful lot to talk about how to our health and safety of individuals. But we need to look at the economic security and I think Michael would agree, you know, there will be some huge costs over the next little while. And many small businesses are going to suffer greatly, especially those that are maybe affected by some of these social distancing. And we need to make sure that we're providing the support for them because they don't have the financial wherewithal to weather the storm and most importantly, want to make sure we can keep people employed. I think that's extremely important.

AG: You've touched on my next point, gentlemen. I guess when it comes to employees getting sick or if as a result of a downturn in business, that layoffs become necessary, how much support can workers rely on? Because I guess it's one thing for, you know, for 100 CEOs to get together and sign a letter, but what about workers who'll be affected in all this? Mr. McCain?

MICHAEL MCCAIN: In our case, know we're hopeful that most everyone will follow suit. The government has very appropriately, has very appropriately shorten the wait times or eliminated the wait times for EI. We also have top up programs in disability and layoffs. So we're doing our best to make sure that people are moved, if they are, if they do have to be moved off either for economic reasons, because a job doesn't, isn't there anymore or if they're off even in self-quarantine circumstances, that they continue to get paid.

AG: Dennis Darby?

DENNIS DARBY: I think that in many cases companies are looking for support from the government, as Michael said. I think we need to make sure that that we have the ability to so that people can still pay their rent and pay their mortgages and companies can still pay their loans. So I think there is a role for the government, not only in the expansion of the EI or the shortening of the EI times, but also to provide some ultimately some direct support. Like it's better to have everybody employed or at least ensured that we don't have anybody defaulting in this iperiod, and I think there's a lot of will.

AG: Only have a minute left, gentlemen, but we've heard certainly people referred to all of this perhaps pushing us towards a global recession. Only have about a minute. Michael McCain, you started this interview saying that this is important because the economy is important to all of us. What's your,aAre we heading to a global recession in your mind?

DENNIS DARBY: I'm not an economist, so I can't address that question. I believe, however, that we are facing a serious crisis that would be defined as an event. I don't believe this is a systemic situation. When the event is done, we all link hands, we follow the emergency measures. When the event is done, people are going to travel, they're going to fly, they're going to vacation, they're going to buy, just like they did before, I believe. And so it's importantly, we get through the event and then concentrate on you know cleaning it up afterwards, but I believe that when this emergency is over, things should be just fine. And we should all have that hope ahead of us.

AG: Dennis Darby, you get the final word on this.

DENNIS DARBY: I agree. It's very much, it's how we manage through the event, how we make sure we protect the people and the businesses because when this is over, we'll be back up again.

AG: All right. Dennis Darby, Michael McCain, thank you both very much.

MICHAEL MCCAIN: Thank you.

AG: That's Michael McCain, president and CEO of Maple Leaf Foods. As well as Dennis Darby, who's the president and CEO of Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters.

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VOICE: The strength of our country is our capacity to come together and care for each other, especially in times of need. So call your friends. Check in with your family. Buy only what you need at the store, but if you're heading out to grab groceries, ask your neighbour if you can get them anything. And if you know someone who is working on the front lines, send them a thank you.

AG: Well, you might not be surprised to learn that Canadians have been helping each other long before the prime minister gave us all that advice. There are dozens of Facebook groups and communities right across the country, and they're aimed at supporting neighbours in these challenging times. Renee Vaugeois is the founder of one such group and Edmonton. It's called YEG Community Response to COVID-19. Hello, Renee.

RENEE VAUGEOIS: Good morning.

AG: So you started this on Friday, not so long ago, what sort of response have you seen?

RENEE VAUGEOIS: Oh, it's been exponential growth. This morning, we're at almost 9000 members on the Facebook group. So as a team of volunteers, it's been a bit overwhelming, to be honest, but encouraging to see so many people coming on and supporting each other.

AG: And what kind of stories are you hearing from people about what they actually need from your group right now?

RENEE VAUGEOIS: Mostly it's about basics, food, toilet paper, bread, people who, you know, we're really trying to target folks that are more vulnerable, who don't have the liquidity in their bank account to just go out and stock up like many Canadians can do and making sure we're hitting people with disabilities and seniors. And so we're finding a lot, you know, we're finding a lot of examples of people who are just needing those very basics. And what's been beautiful is people respond right away, start pming each other and and make that connection and support each other. So it's been very interesting. We've also had some businesses step up and offer some donations around meat, for example. So it's been quite a wide variety and people are also kind of creating a bit of a social support space on there as well.

AG: So when you mentioned about 9000 people already, as you know, sometimes in social media, people can click I like, love and all that kind of stuff, where they're actually, you know where I'm going, without actually getting out of their, without actually getting off their rear ends to help.

RENEE VAUGEOIS: Yeah.

AG: How engaged are these people?

RENEE VAUGEOIS: Pretty engaged. Like by Saturday night, which was, you know, 24 hours later, we were well over 3000 folks and we had a team of 40 volunteers that kind of came together and had a meeting that night. So like finding that people are really mobilizing and they are stepping up. We haven't had a lot of requests standing on there and just kind of sitting unsupported. So it's interesting. We've had a number of teams emerge and I think things are moving and I think people are feeling the urgency and are needing a space to ask questions, get the resources they need without feeling like they're looking all over the Internet. so we've been really kind of a point of access for information on government announcements and that as well.

AG: So, Renee, how do you balance the whole social distancing requirements when you're actually trying to help people. Are you sort of giving advice? Are you training these people? Are you just sort of giving them commonsense pointers? How's that working?

RENEE VAUGEOIS: A little bit. A few different things like. So a lot of it is just kind of being able to respond to people's requests and people's needs for things like pick ups at food banks, but we're finding a lot of people with disabilities, you know, are very compromised. So don't want to go out. So there's that piece about creating these parts of going out into the community and we're trying to maintain and no contact so that things can be dropped off at the door and we've just set up a partnership with the food bank yesterday so that we can start dispatching goods from there because we don't have resources. We're not an organization per say. And then there's a mental health team that's emerging where we're going to be working to set up mental health spaces and people can kind of check in, but really trying to provide those up to date relevant resources that are, you know, government, from the government or scientific resources that make sure that we can give people the information they need on important things.

AG: Okay, Renee, it's a pleasure. You sound very upbeat, so you've kind of made my morning. Good luck.

RENEE VAUGEOIS: That's good. I'm glad.

AG: All right.

RENEE VAUGEOIS: Okay. Thank you so much, Anthony. Have a great day.

AG: You, too. That's Renee Vaugeois, the founder of the Facebook group YEG Community Response to COVID-19. We reached her in Edmonton. Now every day, more bars and restaurants are closing and that's leaving service workers out of work. Katelyn Bourgoin is hoping to help out some of those people who were affected in Nova Scotia. She's a marketing strategist who spent years working in the restaurant and hospitality industry. Katelyn, hello.

KATELYN BOURGOIN: Good morning.

AG: So what are you trying to do to support restaurant workers right now?

KATELYN BOURGOIN: Well, like a lot of people, when this all started, I started feeling a bit overwhelmed and wondering what could I actually do to make a difference? And so I started a fundraiser on GoFundMe. I'm trying to raise $25,000 with the idea of being able to give out 100 tips is what I'm calling them. $250 tips to restaurant workers. So it's just a little bit. It's a little bit to be able to take some of the pressure off, help them go out and buy groceries, but also remind them that we are thinking of them and that, you know, we're not forgetting that this is going to be particularly hard for them at this time.

AG: Well I don't want to bore you with details, but as a former bartender, I know how important that tips are. And I can't imagine, if you go two three days without tips, you're certain to really, really teeter. What what prompted you to do this?

KATELYN BOURGOIN: I was just thinking, what can I do? And I know a lot of restauranteurs. My husband's a chef and owned restaurants and worked in that industry. And this, like they don't have the resources to keep staff on when there's no business. Every day, it's you know, the margins are very, very thin and so while I'm sure many of them would love to be able to support their staff this time, it's just not viable. And so it's just, I just started thinking, what can I do? You know, can people come together. A lot of people were sharing recommendations to go out to your favourite restaurants and buy gift certificates, go to your hairstylist, fitness clubs and buy gift certificates or buy packages for the future. Show them that you're still going to be there and that's so wonderful. And I was thinking, what can we do for the staff? The people who need that help now and so that was the idea.

AG: And if you're you're listening and you haven't worked in the hospitality industry, one of the facts of life is it's pretty precarious, the best of times. You've got people competing, competing for those Thursday, Friday, Saturday shifts as opposed to earlier in the week. Is it from your own personal experience, you wanted to help these people because you actually worked in the industry, right?

KATELYN BOURGOIN: I did, yes. I worked in the industry for years. And it was definitely from my own experience. So I know what it's like. I know that a lot of service stuff, they don't, a lot of them make minimum wage and without tips, you know, you really can't make the ends meet. And so this fund, it's not just for service staff. It's for baristas, it's for people working in the kitchen as well. It's for really anybody who makes the places we love going to function. But for me, I just started thinking, what have I done back then? And I wouldn't have been prepared for that. You know, you're prepared for maybe if my restaurant gets slow. Maybe I need to end up getting a second job, which a lot of servers and people in the restaurant industry already have, but you're not prepared for what if all the restaurants closed. And so that I just thought, you know, I wouldn't have been ready. I wouldn't have had enough savings. I couldn't do, I wouldn't have known this was coming. And so.

AG: So how are you going to decide who gets this generosity?

KATELYN BOURGOIN: So there's a little online tool that allows you to like put in a list of names and it will just generally randomly pick them. So it's gonna be a random draw. I thought that would be the easiest way to go about it and the most fair.

AG: Because I was thinking, look at a city like Montreal, which has thousands of people working in the industry and we're seeing this right across the country. It'll be hard to actually take care of everybody, but I'm really glad and I'm sure people listening are really glad that you're trying to help out, whoever you can, Katelyn.

RENEE VAUGEOIS: Well just so you know too. This is for, the fund I started was for Nova Scotia specifically, but within, you know, twelve hours of me launching one for Nova Scotia, my friend Mary Stuart who's in Ontario who used to serve with me, she started one for Ontario. So, if you're thinking of doing one for your city, you can copy and paste exactly what I've done and roll it out in your city too.

AG: All right. More generosity. I really appreciate that. Good luck with it.

KATELYN BOURGOIN: Thank you. OK, bye.

AG: That's Katelyn Bourgoin. Started a fund to help out service industry workers in Nova Scotia who were affected by COVID-19. And you heard her say, if you want to start one near where you live, you can check out Katelyn Bourgoin's site in Nova Scotia. Well, health care workers, they are obviously on the frontline of the pandemic, but obviously they need the things we all need, groceries, child care, medicine and that's where Daniel Lee and his classmates have decided to step in. Daniel is a medical student at the University of Toronto. Hello, Daniel.

DANIEL LEE: Hi. Good morning. How are you?

AG: Excellent, thanks. So how are medical students supporting these front line workers?

DANIEL LEE: Right. So we all know that COVID-19 is having such a big impact on everyone, but especially frontline health care workers who don't have the option of working from home. And so we found that these health professional students in medicine, and we've expanded to nursing and dentistry, we aren't able to help out on the front lines because they're not qualified, but we have time and the willingness to help and so what we're doing is we're connecting these students to frontline health care workers and we're paying them based on things such as geography and their needs. And so they're going out providing child care, delivering groceries, going to the pharmacy runs and other essential tasks that they're not able to do right now.

AG: So how many volunteers have stepped up to give you a hand?

DANIEL LEE: Right. So we've only been doing this for the last 72 hours or so and we've had over 200 volunteers sign up.

AG: Excellent. Are these all med students or people in some kind of health care studies?

DANIEL LEE: Yes. So these, it started off with med students, those are the students that we know and are in our network, but we expanded to dentistry students, nursing students, and we're expanding to other programs as well.

AG: And what kinds of things are they doing?

DANIEL LEE: Right. So the biggest need right now is child care, given that schools are out, but these frontline health care workers still need to go to the wards in the hospital where they're needed. And so the vast majority of need is child care. And that's why we're asking students who have childcare experience to give their time and and provide it as much need as they can right now.

AG: So you have a whole bunch of future doctors, future nurses, future dentists and they're babysitting for current health care workers?

DANIEL LEE: Yeah, well, in a time of crisis, you really need to provide all the help that you can.

AG: And why is this something you actually wanted to do? Why'd you want to do this?

DANIEL LEE: So in right now, like school is out, as I said, but we're seeing our mentors, our tutors, our teachers in the frontlines giving all that they can during this time of crisis. And there's just this this urge to contribute and help as much as we can. And we know that we're still learners and we're not as qualified as we need to be to serve patients on the frontline, but we also have experience as babysitters and as camp counsellors and we've had roles like this in the past. And we just want to give as much time as we can in the roles that we're capable in.

AG: And I guess within the health care system, you have a number of instances where people are told, look, if you put in for vacation, forget it and don't put in for vacation now. So the demand for for child care must be really intense.

DANIEL LEE: Yeah, it is. It's I think around 95 percent of the people reaching out to us, the frontline health care workers, they need child care the most for sure. And we don't really see that need decreasing in the next few weeks.

AG: And what kind of reaction are you getting when you say, hey, look, we have someone take care of your daughter?

DANIEL LEE: So the reaction has been overwhelmingly positive. We've gotten a lot of messages. I think around 100 health care providers and their families have reached out to us for support in the last 72 hours and even those who don't need help right now, we received a lot of messages, a lot of attention on social media, just praising us for our efforts and and expressing their gratitude to us right now. And we're just so happy to help.

AG: Well, you certainly sound committed. Let me ask you this last question, Daniel. You're a medical student, right?

DANIEL LEE: Yeah.

AG: During this crisis, this pandemic, have you ever asked yourself, why did I go into medicine?

DANIEL LEE: Actually, I think this pandemic really reaffirmed my decision to go into medicine. There's this sense that in this time of crisis, in this time of pandemic, healthcare workers aren't able to work at home, they rush to the frontlines and they serve the community as much as they can. And I'm honestly just so inspired by the efforts and the sacrifices that my medicine preceptors and my medicine mentors, but also all frontline health care workers, ranging from housekeeping, staff, nurses, all of them. They're just putting so much out there and it really just inspires me so much.

AG: And sometime, Daniel or Dr. Lee, this could be you. It could be you.

DANIEL LEE: Yeah, it could be and, you know, you never know when the next pandemic is going to come up. I hope that we as a society learn a lot of lessons from COVID-19.

AG: And so do we all.

DANIEL LEE: Yeah.

AG: Thank you very much, Daniel.

DANIEL LEE: Thank you and good morning.

AG: That's Daniel Lee, a medical student at the University of Toronto. Coming up in our next half hour.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: People need to understand that what they're feeling is normal. Making yourself feel even worse about why am I so completely freaked out is not helpful and it's not true.

AG: There is a lot of focus on staying physically healthy right now, but your mental health? Well, that's just as important. We're going to look at how to squash the anxiety of the coronavirus. That's up next on The Current.

[Music]

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Outbreaks can be bad for mental health. Here’s some lessons SARS can teach us to cope with COVID-19

Guests: Luke Swenson

AG: I'm Anthony Germain, in for Matt Galloway, and you are listening to The Current. Well, certainly safe to say that there is a lot going on right now and it's a lot to process. And at times it can feel pretty overwhelming. Even asking a simple question like you know how are you? Well, how do you think I am, there's a pandemic? It feels like a loaded question. Now, earlier in the show, we heard stories of people helping each other, but the tension across the country, it's pretty hard to miss. As the world battles a pandemic, each of us is also battling with our own different feelings anxiety, concern, fear. Dr. Luke Swenson is a psychiatry resident at the University of Toronto, and he has looked into the mental health lessons that we can take from past outbreaks. Good morning.

LUKE SWENSON: Good morning.

AG: Dr. Swenson.

LUKE SWENSON: Nice to distantly meet you.

AG: Nice to distantly meet you as well. We were going to invite you in to the studio, but given things.

LUKE SWENSON: No, I think it's right to do it this way.

AG: I agree. So should we all start, given our distance, by just taking a deep breath together?

LUKE SWENSON: Let's do that.

[Takes deep breath]

AG: So what can we learn from SARS about about the the impact that these outbreaks take on our mental health? Because that's your area of expertise.

LUKE SWENSON: Yeah. So that's a great question. You know, COVID and SARS are are similar viruses, but have led to really different outbreaks. You know, with SARS had around 8000 cases and COVID-19 is now approaching 200,000. But, you know, there are differences. And in case fatality rates there, that that may be somewhat reassuring. But what we saw with the SARS outbreak is that there were quite high proportions of people who had the virus, who had anxiety, depression, even PTSD following SARS. And so I think it's important to anticipate that patients who come down with this virus may, in addition to their physical health issues, also have a mental health problem.

AG: Right. For those of us who lived SARS, obviously, particularly within the community of medical workers, nurses, doctors, I could see how it might have an element of PTSD. But SARS also not quite the same. This is right across the country, but everything shut down. How would you compare COVID-19 to what happened during SARS?

LUKE SWENSON: Well, I mean, obviously the scale is is much larger with COVID-19. You know, in Toronto, they just announced that they're shutting down all restaurants and bars and pubs, public gatherings. And, you know, I think there's a high level of of anxiety and fear out there in the general population about what's going to happen and and what can I do about it. And we know that anxiety crops up for people when they feel like they're not in control and when they feel like they don't know what's going to happen.

AG: Well, certainly the fear of the unknown is a big part of this. You know, how big is it going to get? Are we looking at massive casualties? Just the not knowing, I think is really getting on a lot of people's nerves. How do we prepare for this unknown mentally? How do we get ready for this? How do we cope?

LUKE SWENSON: Well, you know, I think one thing that's important to understand is that worrying and anxiety are human emotions. You know, it's it's okay to worry. It doesn't mean that you have an anxiety disorder. Worrying, it becomes a problem when it interferes with other aspects of your life. So some level of anxiety and worry is frankly appropriate for something that, you know, has potential to really impact all of our lives. And, you know, the other thing is that with social distancing, people are, you know, not as connected to others and we know that that's associated with problems with mental health. So I think it's important that people know that just because we're social distancing, doesn't mean we need to socially isolate ourselves.

AG: But I guess when that isolation is almost mandated by authorities, now it's not mandated in terms of being enforced by police or armed soldiers and like that, but when you're told under the strongest terms, stay isolated, how can that affect a person's mental health?

LUKE SWENSON: Well, obviously, staying indoors, not being able to leave the house, feeling cooped up, these were all things that came up for people under quarantine during the SARS outbreak. And those people also had high levels of PTSD like symptoms and even depression. But you know, what's different with COVID-19 versus SARS is now, you know, we have to build the ability to Skype or FaceTime with our our friends and family. We can be connected to each other in a way that wasn't possible during SARS. So I think reaching out to friends and family, proactively reaching out to people who, you know, have struggled with mental health issues in the past, trying to to not be isolated from one another, even though we're physically isolated from one another, will help us all to to deal with this.

AG: Well, there are ways, despite the isolation, creative ways, for people to connect and to cope. So I'm going to play something for you. In Toronto, for instance, the Misfit yoga studio, it's live streaming classes on Instagram television every day. So here is what yesterday's class sounded like with Rachel Maclean greeting people as they tune in.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Hi, Ian. Hi, Sarah. Oh, my gosh. So much fun. I guarantee as soon as I start laying on stuff, the dogs will probably do the same thing. We'll start off sitting. So if you need something to sit comfortably, I am going to use one of my couch cushions. So you could use that.

AG: Dr. Swenson, your sense, you're chuckling, you're getting into it. That's good.

LUKE SWENSON: Well I love that. I love that. You know, I think we're coming up with creative ways of staying connected and also doing things that are that we know are helpful for our mental health, like exercise and yoga.

AG: Right. And how important is that? I mean, even though you're stuck at home. You've probably got a place to do some jumping jacks or something, right?

LUKE SWENSON: Yeah. You know, we know that exercise influences mental health outcomes and so as much as possible, I would encourage people to try exercising at home. Most gyms have been closed now, and it's probably best to avoid gyms for the time being, but there are a number of workouts that they have on the Internet and there are apps.

AG: Excellent advice.

LUKE SWENSON: For things like seven minute workout.

AG: Perfect. Dr. Swenson, appreciate your time. Thank you very much.

LUKE SWENSON: Okay. Thanks. Take care.

AG: Dr. Luke Swenson is a psychiatry resident at the University of Toronto. Now, if you are feeling especially distressed over the coronavirus and you need some support, you can get in touch with your healthcare provider, also as Dr. Swenson said, go online and check out the Canadian Mental Health Association website for other resources.

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Diesease and Cinema: Looking at how filmmakers depict epidemics under a microscope

Guests: Daniel Curtis

AG: This is The Current. I'm Anthony Germain, sitting in for Matt Galloway. Give this a listen.

SOUNDCLIP

[Scene from the movie "The Killer That Stalked New York"]

AG: Well, 70 years ago, Hollywood was releasing movies, imagining what a deadly epidemic would look like. And one such film, The Killer That Stalked New York, was about what would happen if smallpox broke out in that city. Well, that was one of the early ones. Tinsel Town still at it.

[Scene from the movie "Contagion"]

AG: Contagion, out in 2011. And that was loosely based on the SARS outbreak in 2002 and 2003 that killed 774 people around the world. And I think, as every Canadian remembers that, included 44 people who died in Toronto. Well, as the world grapples with the new real life COVID-19 virus, Daniel Curtis is watching with a particularly unique perspective that includes how movies tackle these kinds of outbreaks. Daniel Curtis is an associate professor at Erasmus University's School of History, Culture and Communication. He also co-authored a report that was published by the Centre for Disease Control. That report is called Social Responses to Epidemics Depicted by Cinema. And Professor Curtis joins us now from Rotterdam. Hello.

DANIEL CURTIS: Hi.

AG: How does the response to this COVID-9 outbreak compared to how Hollywood has tried to portray these these battles against epidemics?

DANIEL CURTIS: Well, there are some parallels, I think. One obvious parallel, especially in the early stages of reporting on COVID-19, was these processes of orientalization and othering. That's to say this kind of stereotyping of East Asians, Chinese people, and also seeing East Asians and Chinese people in general as intrinsically different to, let's say, what westerners.

AG: So when you say orientalization, you mean blaming the Chinese or other Asian countries for these outbreaks?

DANIEL CURTIS: Yeah. I mean, we saw like many, many cases, especially within Western Europe, of quite strong racist incidents, basically in public spaces on public transport or just out in the streets. And I think there are parallels with cinema. So it's no surprise to me that the Patient Zero in Contagion, the film that you just played a clip of, is a chef from Macao. The first person infected in in the film Blindness, a film from 2008 about an epidemic form of blindness, the first infected there is a Japanese man. We have this film, The Painted Veil, where you have this kind of presentation of this kind of timeless rural Chinese village as as a nexus of infection of a cholera outbreak and is presented as kind of fortunate to receive the selfless Western bacteriologist, risking his own life to save others, despite receiving resistance and apparent sort of ingratitude. So I think these things that are there in cinema and it's kind of inevitable, I think that we also see them in playing out in real life. I mean, in which direction the link goes, whether it's real life, mirroring cinema or cinema reflecting real life. Well, it's difficult to say.

AG: Well, as that line becomes blurry between real life and film. Let me ask you this. You're in the Netherlands, not far from Italy, where the whole country is under quarantine now. Does all of this feel like a movie to you?

DANIEL CURTIS: Yeah, I guess so. I mean, maybe not my personal experience, but I think if you look at some of the things that are being said by world leaders, people like Donald Trump, things being said by Boris Johnson, some of this stuff is actually almost too unrealistic to actually be found in a film. It's almost like we're getting statements where things are just factually incorrect, contradictory, decisions made unilaterally. Actually, probably almost too unrealistic to go into a film.

AG: So tell me this. Why do you think movies about these kinds of apocalyptic plagues, why are they so popular with the people who make movies?

DANIEL CURTIS: Well, I think there's a couple of, I think, first of all, fear, panic, chaos they're all kind of features that are going to be retained for just entertainment purposes, regardless of whether they represent likely outcomes. I think one of the important things about film is that because they focus on characters, they zoom in on the lives of ordinary people. In terms of disease, these films can actually focus on some of the elements which get pushed into the background in favour of kind of macroscopic elements off of disease management. You know, when people talk about an effective quarantine, for example, an effective quarantine in Hubei or Wuhan itself, what they are talking about, it kind of disguises the fact that beyond that quarantine, there are hundreds, thousands of stories of individual hardship and suffering and so on. And to be honest, I think films do a good job obviously I mean, Contagion is one example of a film that really zoomed in on numerous different people, numerous different contexts and their individual decision making.

AG: Right. Many of these motion pictures about deadly epidemics, there's utter panic and a breakdown of the social order. What's your sense of how realistic that's portrayed?

DANIEL CURTIS: So in films, we do often see this kind of unrest, this breakdown disorder that say, but especially what I found in my research, actually a lot of the time in many of these films, the breakdown is sociability, which is often a kind of violent resistance or unrest against medical or political authorities. There's a kind of paradox because actually often it's in order to protect or retain just normal aspects of ordinary life seem to be under threat, such as perceived freedoms, liberties, customary traditions and practices. So it's not really fear of the microbe itself, the disease itself, but actually often see of the impositions put in place by governments or societies. You know, it stands to reason that quarantines disruption or restrictions to economic activity, changes to burial practices. These are not always easily accepted by societies.

AG: I want to switch this and ask you about films in Asia and of course, the epicentre of this new coronavirus in China. Does China have its own collection of these kinds of epidemic movies?

DANIEL CURTIS: Yes, actually, in the aftermath of SARS, around 2003, 2004, there was actually quite a lot of movies being made in China relating to this topic. But I have to say, many of them are not particularly great. Many of them quite sort of heavily politicized, let's say. So it all kind of present a situation where yeah, there is a terrible outbreak, but then everything by the end, everything is well-managed and everything is well sorted. And, you know, the government does a good job.

AG: The party comes to the rescue, but I'm assuming in those films you don't have Caucasian Western medical agents coming to the rescue.

DANIEL CURTIS: No, no, no, no, no. Exactly not. But there is also another interesting film which is called Wolf Warrior Two, really popular film, recent film, Chinese film, which tries to, in the context of increased Chinese involvement in Africa, tries to actually favourably present Chinese attempts to control a fictional disease based on Ebola in Africa. So there are some interesting things that have been recently done.

AG: I want to bring to your attention a 1992 Canadian film. It was called The Black Death. And in this, the authorities are deliberately covering up the deadliness of a threat. Have a listen.

SOUNDCLIP

[Scene from the movie "The Black Death"]

AG: So, Professor, how common is it in these movies for authorities to be part of a cover up of the real danger of these diseases?

DANIEL CURTIS: Yeah, I think you see that quite often, especially with the earlier movies, say, from the 1950s onwards. So, I mean, you already mentioned The Killer That Stalked New York. There also was a film called Panic on the Street where authorities tried to withhold information to guard against chaos. A number of other films, a British film, 80,000 Suspects also tackling an outbreak of smallpox and the same kinds of issues.

AG: I'm writing down all these titles because you're mentioning films I've never heard of, but let's hear a scene from one final movie here. This is a outbreak where you mentioned Ebola. This is a fictitious Ebola like virus called Motaba that originates in Africa, not Asia, but it ends up infecting people in a small town in the United States and officials trying desperately to contain its spread.

SOUNDCLIP

[Scence from the movie "Outbreak"]

AG: Okay. I can feel my pulse rate going up just listening. Daniel Curtis, how do moviemakers deal with the notion of widespread quarantine? Because those officials sound like they're on the verge of panic.

DANIEL CURTIS: Yeah. Quarantine and isolation is a very difficult topic to address, but I think one of the best examples of this being done in a very nuanced kind of way is actually the film Blindness from from 2008, because most of the scenes are actually set within the quarantine context itself. And what you get is this kind of enforced isolation of the blind and then you really see many different layers of conflict within the quarantine facility itself. You get this kind of struggle for resources, but also conflict between those that got the quarantine and those within the facility itself really plays out very effectively. There is a film, Korean film, Flu, which also deals with quarantine situation, but that is very, very overly dramatic, really, and not really particularly realistic.

AG: I've noticed it in the clips that we've listened to, there's these tension tracks kind of boom, when there's chaos and they really ramp it up, but as far as the actual conclusion to these movies go, is it always sort of someone comes to the rescue and the virus is eradicated? Are we always looking at happy endings in these movies?

DANIEL CURTIS: Well, I think with Contagion, they the ending is kind of quite ambiguous, right? So you're left not knowing how society really recovers from this kind of traumatic shock, but I think there are some that have quite interesting, nuanced endings. I think I reflect on this one ending to the film Blindness, which is really interesting because you see at the end, people are beginning to recover their sight. So they're beginning to recover from the disease, but you have one man played by Danny Glover. And he kind of reflects upon his status, both pre and post blindness prior to the disease. His kind of status was basically defined by his otherness as was left to infer why that is probably down the lines of racial discrimination, but maybe through poverty. Maybe it's simply through the fact he always wears an eye patch. But for this man, the disease basically has a kind of egalitarian effect. So for the first time through this disease, he's actually just accepted as a person, an infected person, just like any other.

AG: Well, Blindness was an exceptional novel, a terrifying novel and a terrifying. It sounds as though Blindness is your go to epidemic movie. What is your go to movie on these topics?

DANIEL CURTIS: I think they each have their strengths. Blindness is very strong on the whole quarantine issue. Contagion is more effective with some of the actual, let's say, the science. My favourite film probably is The Painted Veil because I like the fact that it's sett in 1920s, 1930s. I like the landscapes and all this.

AG: Let me wind this down with you and just ask you this, because some people are going to, they probably heard in the introduction about the CDC. Why are you and the Centre for Disease Control interested in these movies and how they could inform how we should or should not deal with a real life pandemic? What's your interest in this?

DANIEL CURTIS: The reason being is that just like news reporting and social media, you know, popular culture, films, novels, television shows, they can actually substantially influence people's trust, especially when information provided about epidemic diseases is kind of grounded or presented as scientific fact. And it's been shown by research is that audiences are more inclined to take on this information, these educational messages, when they're reinforced by emotive stories or even highly implausible situations such as those seen in zombie movies, for example. They're said to have very, very significant public health implications. And that's I thing, films are very effective mediums for delivering messages. Stories are how we make sense of the world, but to me one of the dangers is actually in the nature of the message. When we have things like orientalization, othering in the message, together with the fact that films are very effective mediums, maybe we have some kind of negative outcomes for society.

AG: So do you suspect that COVID-19, that this pandemic is going to spawn a movie or two?

DANIEL CURTIS: Yeah, I'm pretty sure eventually that will be the case. I just hope any films that are produced in the future critique this process of othering and orientedization, rather than perpetuate it sort of uncritically.

AG: Professor Curtis, I appreciate your thoughts and your insights on this topic. Thank you very much.

DANIEL CURTIS: Thank you. Yeah, great to speak to you. Thanks.

AG: Daniel Curtis teaches history, culture and communication at Erasmus University in Rotterdam. Well, that's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q. Talia Schlanger is in for Tom Power and she'll be talking to one of the stars of a new series called Self Made. It's about Madam C.J. Walker, America's first black female millionaire. First though, you may have forgotten, this is St. Patrick's Day. An unusually quiet one. Parades across the Emerald Isle, they've all been cancelled because of coronavirus. Many pubs and restaurants are closed, so the least we can do is celebrate with a musical libation of sorts. This song has been covered by Rod Stewart, U2, the band technically from London, but certainly big Irish pub favourites. Happy St. Patrick's Day. We're to go out with The Pogues. I'm Anthony Germain. Thanks for listening to The Current. This is "Dirty Old Town."

[Song: "Dirty Old Town" by The Pogues]

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Mar. 17, 2020 episode transcript

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