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The AIH Transcript for February 28, 2020

Hosts: Helen Mann and Chris Howden

Prologue

HELEN MANN: Hello. I'm Helen Mann, sitting in for Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

HM: Temperatures may be rising, but stocks are headed in the opposite direction quickly. And that's left our guest reassuring his clients that while a pandemic is possible, fears of a big economic downturn could soon recede.

CH: No middle ground. Turkey is making it easier for refugees to leave the country, but many have nowhere to go. An Iranian refugee at the Greek border tells us that's left people like her in a desperate situation.

HM: As Wet'suwet'en Hereditary Chiefs continue to call for the RCMP to leave their territory, an Indigenous community in Quebec is offering an alternative: Its own police force.

CH: And exhausting inhabit. New York City wants to curb idling. So, of course, its called on the most obvious person to help sell its message: punk-rock icon Billy Idol.

HM: She's no Bernie Bro. With key states looming in the Democratic primary, we talked to a woman whose job it is to help frontrunner Bernie Sanders bring in support from communities who have always been skeptical of the senator.

CH: And ruffling feathers. For the past month, a Cape Breton mail carrier has been tailed by a ring-necked pheasant. And as the postal worker tells us, the company of the pheasant has not always been pleasant. As It Happens. The Friday Edition. Radio that says if the bird asks, tell him his peck is in the mail.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Stock market: Coronavirus

Stock market: Coronavirus

Guest: David Baskin

CH: It's a major concern for the health of us human beings. But this week, it's also become a concern for the health of the markets. The coronavirus has led to a massive sell-off. The Dow Jones lost nearly 3,500 points this week. The S&P lost 11 per cent of its value. The Toronto Stock Exchange dropped nearly 500 points today alone. But the scariest number of all is 2008. This has been the worst week since the market crash of that year. David Baskin experienced that recession. He's the president of Baskin Wealth Management. We reached him in Toronto.

HM: David Baskin, you look after other people's money. On a week like this, what kind of things are you hearing from your investment clients?

DAVID BASKIN: Well, Helen, a lot of our clients have been with us a long time so they know that our stance during these difficult times is really not to do very much at all.

HM: And why is that?

DB: What we're seeing this week in particular is a systematic crash of stocks, regardless of their value and regardless of their exposure to the coronavirus epidemic. When we see stocks like, for example, Bell Canada or what used to be TransCanada Pipeline -- now TC Energy -- go down five or six per cent in a day. Even though we know their business will not be at all impacted, no matter how severe the health crisis turns out to be, what we're seeing is just a general meltdown of the market having to do more with valuation and sentiment than any real problem.

HM: We hear a lot that uncertainty is the enemy, I guess, of the market. Is that what's going on here? Why is the market so vulnerable to the coronavirus?

DB: Well, I think there is some uncertainty. But I think you also have to put this in context, Helen. Since Boxing Day of 2018, up until last week, the North American stock markets have been on a remarkable upward trajectory. The tech-heavy Nasdaq index was up around 40 per cent in 2019 and the S&P 500 in the United States up more than 30 per cent. In other words, valuations have become extended and stock prices got very high. It's almost as if the market was looking for an excuse to sell stocks.

HM: So we might have had a correction anyway, whether it was coronavirus or something else.

DB: I absolutely believe that.

HM: And yet there are certain sectors, presumably that are more vulnerable. What are you looking at?

DB: Well, there's no question that the global tourism industry is going to take a hit. We don't know how big it's going to be. But we already know that most airlines have cancelled flights to China, to Italy. And more destinations undoubtedly will be canceled. And Helen, there's nothing that says worthless as yesterday's empty hotel room or empty airline seat, that's money that airlines and hotels and tourist operators will never get back.

HM: Now, the coronavirus has also disrupted global supply chains with a lot of materials in particular that start in China. How much is that a factor in all of this?

DB: Well, it's certainly the case that companies like Apple and Microsoft have already announced that their ability to supply hardware to their customers is going to be certainly constrained to the extent that supplies do come from China. For example, somebody who wants to get their new fancy wireless earbuds from Apple may have to wait. The question is, will that order for earbuds be lost forever? Will Apple never get that revenue? Or will it simply get it a quarter later when the factories in China are up and running again? In other words, we may see, for those kind of companies, a sharp hit but a very limited duration.

HM: So the headline today is that this is the stock market's worst week since 2008. The beginning of that historic economic slump with a lot of money and jobs going out the door. Beyond the numbers themselves, what does this feel like to you in terms of the kind of things you were seeing in 2008?

DB: Well, so I think it's a little bit irresponsible, frankly, to compare the situation today to 2008. 2008 was a global financial crisis in which major banks were insolvent and going broke. Major names like Lehman Brothers and Washington Mutual and Merrill Lynch simply disappeared, went away, in a very short period of time. Banks couldn't trust other banks to honour their obligations. That was a really different situation than what we're seeing today. Today, what we're seeing is really not that different from a run of the mill correction in the stock market, the likes of which we see -- the level that we have now around minus-13 or 15 per cent, we see once every one or two years. I think what's made it so alarming this time, Helen, is the fact that it happened in a very compressed time period, really over five or six trading days. And I would attribute that to changes in technology which have compressed activity that might have taken two weeks or a month, 10 years ago, into a really really short period of time.

HM: What happens if it continues to decline? When do people become alarmed?

DB: Well, I think some people are alarmed already. But here's what we learned in 2008-2009, just in terms of a very severe stock market crash when the S&P 500 lost 50 per cent in a nine month period. What we found was that the high quality companies, the Canadian banks, for example, and telephone companies, all recovered within about a one and a half to two year period. In other words, the Royal Bank saw its stock price dropped from $50 to $25, which is absolutely alarming. But by the end of 2009, it was back, in fact, to an all-time high. So people who own high quality stocks should hold onto them. I think the people who are most at risk are those who have borrowed money to buy stocks and those who have bought in more speculative issues, some of which may never recover from this.

HM: And presumably people who need their money sooner rather than later?

DB: Well, that's right. And look, you should never [chuckles] forget that stock markets go up and down. And I think one of the risks of what we saw in 2019 when the stock market went straight up is people forget that they also go down. So certainly people who need their money right away shouldn't have it all in stocks.

HM: David Baskin thanks very much for joining us.

DB: My pleasure, Helen.

HM: Okay. Bye bye.

DB: Bye bye.

CH: David Baskin is the president of Baskin Wealth Management. We reached him in Toronto.

[Music]

Wet'suwet'en: peacekeepers

Guest: Joe Norton

CH: A Mohawk Grand Chief from near Montreal hopes he might have a way to ease the tensions around the Wet'suwet'en Hereditary Chiefs in northern B.C.. The hereditary chiefs want the RCMP to get off their territory. But the federal and provincial governments say that someone has to police the place. Well, today, Joe Norton, the Grand Chief of the Kahnawake Council, suggested sending in an alternative to the RCMP. They'd be organized by Kahnawake's police force: the Mohawk Peacekeepers. We reached Grand Chief Norton in Kahnawake.

HM: Grand Chief Norton, what are you hoping that the Mohawk Peacekeepers could do that would perhaps help with this dispute in northern B.C.?

JOE NORTON: Well, they can do what the RCMP are unable to do. That's for sure.

HM: And how is that?

JN: And that's to bring trust in peacekeeping force that will be there to serve the public properly. So far, the reports we've been hearing are not very good in terms of the kind of, we'll call it, harassment that the people in the Wet'suwet'en Territory have been facing. But maybe this is a way of policing in the future where a peacekeeping unit that could be available on the spur of the moment if and whenever there are disputes that arise again, something to the effect like the United Nations. Some people may find it far-fetched, you know that you need a U.N. type of force. But in this day and age, who knows? You see the things that have gone on across the country, protests to support our brothers and sisters in Wet'suwet'em Territory. And a lot of them see themselves in that and how they've been treated by police forces.

HM: For listeners who are not familiar with the peacekeepers. Can you explain who they are and the role that they play in Kahnawake?

JN: Many many years ago -- and I say many years ago -- we had what was known as the Amerindian Police Force. And the Amerindian Police Force was under Sûreté du Québec-- the provincial police force. So we got into some dissatisfaction with the Amerindian Police Force and they were let go because the people in the community demanded that. And we brought in a new type of policing and we called it "Peacekeepers." And really not so much criminal law enforcement, but a combination of that and attempting to keep the peace in the community. Since then, the Peacekeepers have had to struggle and fight to gain the kind of recognition. In 1995 we signed a tripartite agreement -- federal, provincial and Mohawk -- to establish the Peacekeepers as a legitimately recognized unit.

HM: These are also conventionally trained officers, right?

JN: Oh yeah, they're trained. They're trained at the same, they call it "the post" in Regina where the RCMP are trained. So they've got the same kind of training. The legitimacy is no longer a question and hasn't been since 1995.

HM: With regard to what's happening in northern B.C., the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs have demanded the RCMP get off their land. In your proposal, do you imagine the Peacekeepers would be replacing the RCMP entirely?

JN: That's still up in the air. It may or it may not. Maybe it will be a combination of RCMP and not only Peacekeepers. Because we also talked about other Indigenous police forces across the country joining forces with us. But we're getting so many conflicting reports about what's happening or what's not happening. Having Indigenous police there will kind of calm all that down, you know.

HM: Do you see that the Indigenous force would work alongside the RCMP, perhaps in conjunction with them?

JN: That's a possibility because it's a tinder box situation there. And I'm sure B.C. won't appreciate the fact that we're saying we can do a better job. The federal government also, I think, may appreciate having that sort of policing unit developing in that part of the country. So maybe in the future they can have their own Indigenous police force be there rather than the RCMP.

HM: Now, your police chief has refused to enforce a provincial injunction that has ordered the clearance of the rail blockade in Kahnawake. How do you think the federal and provincial governments would respond to a force that would not enforce a court order like that?

JN: Well, they would be there to keep the peace, not to enforce injunctions. And we would hope that there would be no more need for injunctions in the future. That there would be peaceful negotiations because this a twin tracked momentum that is generated where policing will be joint or separate depending on peacekeeping or RCMP. And at the same time, simultaneously, Canada begins to do business with Aboriginal people in another way other than what they're doing right now. So you don't have to have injunctions. Here, in Kahnawake, those Peacekeepers are under the authority of the people. It's the people that will decide through a committee that's set up to oversee a lot of their activities, not interfere with the policing type of things. But in situations like this, the reason why they've said they wouldn't enforce injunctions is because they'd be waiting for direction from the people of Kahnawake -- yes or no?

HM: Now, I understand that you have told Marc Miller, the Minister of Indigenous Services, about your idea. How did he respond?

JN: It was quite positive -- quite a positive reaction. I also floated the same idea with the Minister of Justice, David Lametti. So they're both very positive about the idea of that kind of force. Of course, they have to say, well, we've got to think about it because there's some legal constitutional complications to that.

HM: And what about the Wet'suwet'en leaders?

JN: We haven't heard back from them yet. I'm sure that it found its way to the table. And they haven't responded to that yet. So we'll have to wait and see what they think.

HM: If the various parties do accept the idea, do you have any notion of how long it might take to implement something like this?

JN: It could be very quick. But strictly if we started with Peacekeepers of Kahnawake we can supply at least two to four officers on short notice -- again, depending on the reception of B.C., and Canada, and to a degree, the RCMP and the Wet'suwet'en. If they said yes, they could be deployed very quickly to be there.

HM: Grand Chief Norton, thank you for your time today. We appreciate it.

JN: Okay. Thank you.

HM: Okay. Bye bye.

JN: Bye bye.

CH: Joe Norton is the Grand Chief of the Mohawk Council of Kahnawake.

[Music]

Cape Breton pheasant

Guest: John Ross

CH: In his 16 years as a mail carrier, John Ross has met people from all walks of life. Not to mention pets. But lately he's been joined by an unexpected companion while delivering mail. A companion who's usually friendly but a bit unpredictable. And sometimes a little territorial.

SOUNDCLIP

JOHN ROSS: Like, really? Can I get by? Come on. Let's go. [Animal noise] Come on. [Man jumps] Jesus Christ! You little [Censor bleep] [Man chuckles] You're pushing your luck.

CH: We reached John Ross in Sydney, Nova Scotia.

HM: Mr. Ross, we just heard a clip of you and your new friend. Can you describe what's happening there?

JOHN ROSS: Actually I'm delivering the mail for Canada Post. And this ring-necked pheasant who has been following me on my route, he decided to follow me up a set of steps as I was delivering the mail. And I turned around and he's right there. And he wouldn't let me get by. And then when I went to walk by, he jumped up and tried to peck at my shoulder. So I got down the step. And then as I started walking away, he continued to follow me and followed me for about six blocks.

HM: And this is not a new occurrence, right? He's been following you, as you said, for a while now?

JR: Yeah. The first time was probably about a month ago. And within a month, he's probably followed me seven or eight times, I guess, on my route. And he usually goes for about six or seven blocks. Then after that, he goes on his merely way.

HM: Can you take us back to the first day that you realized this was happening?

JR: I was doing the route. And as I went into a driveway to drop-off the mail. And when I came back out, he was in front of the parked car in the driveway. And I looked at him and I thought, "Well, this is odd." And I didn't know what to think. You know is he coming to try to bite me? Or what's going on here? Anyhow, as I started to walk away he just followed next to me, probably two feet away from me. And he followed me on the road to the next house. And he stayed by the curb. And I go in the driveway and I drop the mail off in the box. And when I turn around and come back out, he follows me to the next house.

HM: And when you say he follows, does he fly from like driveway-to-driveway? Or does he walk along with you?

JR: No. He walks. He is walking right next to me. [HM Laughs] And his little head bobs back and forth. And he just follows me. And actually what he does as well, sometimes he'll walk and he'll walk right in front of me and he'll stop. And I look out and he looks at me. And I go to the left, he'll go to the left. I go to the right, he'll go to the right. He won't let me get by him.

HM: What does he look like? Describe him for us.

JR: He's fairly big for a pheasant. His colours are probably, well, they're brown. There is red and green by his face. And then he has a white ring around his neck. Very very colourful. Beautiful bird.

HM: And you've given him a nickname?

JR: I call him "Brownie." But when I was doing the mail today, actually I've got to be honest -- when the neighbours came over and he looked up at the sky and he looked at me and he said, "The pheasant's name is Phil." [Laughter] So maybe he already named him, I don't know. But I call him Brownie.

HM: You both take an ownership of this bird.

JR: It seems that way. It seems that way.

HM: Now, we heard in that clip that Brownie isn't always super friendly with you. Tell us a bit about his temperament.

JR: I found the first time I saw him, like I said, he just walked next to me, probably two feet away, just far enough so you couldn't touch him. And then the next time I saw him, he will walk up and try to peck at my feet. And it seems every time I see him, he gets a little more aggressive but in a playful way, in a fun way. And you always know when he's going to peck at you because his tail feathers open up [HM Laughs]. And as soon as the tail feathers open up, you know who is coming for you.

HM: A tip -- that it is coming.

JR: Yes, that's right. He will let you know, "I'm coming for you."

HM: Does it hurt?

JR: No, it doesn't hurt at all.

HM: You think he's being playful, why? What's the relationship you guys have developed? [Chuckles]

JR: It seems like every time I see him, it seems like he's a little more comfortable with me, you know? But not to the point where he will let me touch him. But he just seems to be testing his boundaries, I guess, sort of thing. He'll come up and, you know, peck at my feet and he will walk ahead of me a little bit and he'll stop on the road, and I'll walk up and he'll stay there. And then when I go to the left, he goes to the left. It is like a game to him, it seems.

HM: Besides the guy who calls him "Phil" -- what are the other people on the route think of what's going on?

JR: Oh, they think it's hilarious. Actually, today I got to one house and they had a picture -- yesterday in our newspaper is a picture of Brownie and myself and the paper. And this guy had that page taped to his door. So when I went up to the mailbox, I could see it, kind of thing. And then I had a couple of people come out and say, "Oh, you're a star." And I would say, "No, I'm not the star. It's not me. Because if I was walking down the road, nobody's going to want to take my picture. So the star is the pheasant.".

HM: You CBC News talked to a biology professor at Dalhousie University who said, you know, some birds are known to be aggressive to humans sometimes. And they use simple cues to decide whether to attack. I'm just wondering, do you think he sees you as a friend or as a potential rival?

JR: Well, you know, he may think I'm a rival because I said to a few people like this time of the year with the ice and that -- we wear cleats on the bottom of our shoes. And they kind of make a clicking noise on the road and whatnot as you're walking. So maybe that noise has something to do with it. I mean, who knows, right? But maybe that's what's attracting him to me. I don't know.

HM: It's better than being chased down the street by some dog, I guess.

JR: Oh, for sure. And that's happened once or twice. [Chuckles]

HM: Well, say hi to Brownie for us the next time you see him.

JR: I definitely will.

HM: Thanks for telling us your story.

JR: Okay. Well thank you, Helen.

HM: Okay. Take care. Bye bye.

JR: Bye now.

CH: John Ross is a mail carrier who's being followed by a male ring-necked pheasant. We reached him in Sydney, Nova Scotia.

[Music]

Billy Idol Never Idles!

SOUNDCLIP

BILLY IDOL: Hey, New York, Billy Idol here. Rock-star and environmentalist. If you're not driving, shut your damn engine off! Idling is polluting. I mean, ballocks. Are you trying to choke us all?!

CH: At the peak of his career, he flew all over the world -- creating major emissions. He wore leather pants, leather boots, and probably leather underwear -- supporting an industry that creates serious pollution. To say nothing of the cows themselves, which are methane factories. And then there's the aerosol hairspray. So much hairspray. My point is, back in the 80s and 90s, the sort of punkish pop star, Billy Idol, had a pretty enormous carbon footprint. Which may be why he has since become an environmentalist. And now with a rebel yell, he cries "Less, less, less." Idling your vehicle in New York City, I mean. Yesterday, during a news conference, New York Mayor Bill de Blasio officially launched a campaign urging people to shut off their vehicles while they're parked. The slogan is "Billy Never Idles" -- which as a pun makes no sense. Even if Billy Idol never idles his vehicle, Billy Idol always Billy Idols. And you can hear that in this clip recorded yesterday when he addressed the crowd at the press conference in New York City.

SOUNDCLIP

BILLY IDOL: It's my privilege to be doing this. Thank you. [Shouts] And shut it off! [Crowd cheers] Billy Never Idles! No way! [Person in background: Now do a chant. We need a chant.] [Chants] Billy Never Idles! Billy Never Idles! [Crowd joins in] Billy Never Idles! Yeah!

CH: Pretty revved up for a guy who wants people to turn their engines off. But let's hope Mr. Idol can convince people to do that -- and that these are not just Idol words.

[Music]

Part 2: As Turkey opens path to Europe, one refugee describes war-like scene at border with Greece

Turkey-Greece border

Guest: Parvin

CH: It all started with one senior official in Ankara who told media that's today that Turkey was opening its border to Europe. He said that less than 24 hours after 33 Turkish soldiers were killed by Syrian airstrikes in Idlib. Word about the open borders spread fast. Hundreds of migrants headed towards Greece, but Greece didn't get the memo and officials there were not exactly waiting with open arms. Migrants in Turkey's northeast at the Greek border were met with a barbed-wire fence, smoke grenades, and riot police. Parvin is a 29-year-old Iranian refugee who's lived in Turkey for three years now. She's one of the hundreds who headed for the Greek and Turkish border near Edirne, Turkey --which is where we reached her. We're not revealing her last name because she fears for her safety.

HM: Parvin, what does it look like where you are right now at this border crossing between Turkey and Greece?

PARVIN: Yeah, here, you know, it's like a war because the Greek army used the (tear) gas (on) for the child, baby, and adult people. And I sent a photo of the gas -- that they used this. And here, it's like a war situation because they attacked us, they use their (tear) gas. And the Turkish Army -- they didn't allow us to come back. And, you know, actually, that's not a correct reason because we don't want, really, we don't want to come back to Turkey.

HM: You say it is like a "war" and the authorities are using gas?

PARVIN: Yeah yeah. They are using gas. I took a video and photo of the gas. And I send [Shouting in the background]. And if you need...[Parvin reacts to the shouting] You can hear! You can hear!

HM: So they're firing tear gas at the people who are trying to cross the border?

PARVIN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

HM: How are people reacting?

PARVIN: You know I'm not sure about the number of the people. But we really need emergency help because we have a lot of babies, a lot of children, old people here. We need help.

HM: How did you get there?

PARVIN: I came here with a taxi. But my other friends, they came here with taxi, with their own car, and bus. [Sirens in background]

HM: And what made you decide to go there today? Why did you want to go to the border?

PARVIN: Because there are a lot of refugees here in Turkey. And about a year ago UNHCR [Sirens in background] and the Turkish government, they changed the laws about refugees. For example, we have a lot of the people here -- the UNHCR accepted their case but the Turkish government rejected their case! And they deported a lot of people to their own country. We are not safe in Turkey. And we hope for these days -- for open the border because we are unsafe in Turkey. We can't use the hospital in Turkey. And we don't have anything like human rights here. We are not like a human here. We don't live like a human in Turkey. We are like an animal for them.

HM: You don't feel that the Turkish people want you there, that you're not allowed to use local hospitals. What else is life been like for you there?

PARVIN: You know, it's like we are not human here. We need good places, the safe places for our life. All we want is citizenship -- it's not important which country -- we want to live like a human, like a person, having a citizenship. We are not safe. If we were safe, why am I here? Why are my friends here? Why are a lot of people are here?

HM: Why are you personally not safe in Iran?

PARVIN: Because of the government. Because of the law and private things. I can't speak about my private lifestyle. But you can't think I'm not legal -- the UNHCR accepted my case, but the Turkish government rejected it. What can I do here?

HM: Why is it now that you've decided to cross that border? do you feel you've been encouraged to go there?

PARVIN: Because the Turkish government say the border is open, and we decided to go to another country.

HM: Why do you think Turkey decided to open that border?

PARVIN: I think it is a political thing. But I'm not sure, you know, it's a political things and it is something about the Idlib war today. And I don't know what's happened again here because the European country gave 4 million euro to the Turkish government last month. Now the Turkish government have the money, but it's like a political thing between the country. And you know we are humans -- but we don't have human rights. It's like a game.

HM: So you think this is related to the bombing in Idlib, which killed a number of Turkish forces?

PARVIN: Yeah. Yeah.

HM: So what will you do now? Where can you go?

PARVIN: I don't know. We are waiting.

HM: Can you go back to Turkey?

PARVIN: No, we don't want to. And I think we can't go back to Turkey. The Turkish government don't want us. And we don't want them. Living in Turkey for refugees is like hell. Between the two borders it is hell.

HM: How worried are you right now that this is going to remain as it is, that you're not going to be able to go in either direction?

PARVIN: I don't know. You know we are waiting here. And we are so scared and we fear about what's happening for us. But we want that it should we happen -- we want the Greece border to open. We need UNHCR. But we want to go to Greece -- like 5 or 4 years ago, they opened the border -- we want something like that happening because we don't have any human rights in Turkey.

HM: If Greece chooses not to open that border, what happens?

PARVIN: We will stay here. They will kill us. They will kill us. But we will stay here. We don't want to come back to Turkey. That's enough. That's enough. You are not living here in Turkey. You don't know what's happening. They're shooting us like a bird. It can be more worse tomorrow because the army came here. And I tell you, it's like a war.

HM: Parvin I really appreciate you talking to us in this very hard situation for you. Thank you very much.

PARVIN: You're welcome. But we need help. Please. We don't want to -- please, please, please -- we don't want to go back to Turkey.

HM: Please stay safe.

PARVIN: Okay.

HM: Thank you again.

PARVIN: Bye bye.

CH: Parvin is a 29-year-old Iranian refugee who's been living in Turkey. We reached her at the Greek-Turkish border crossing near Edirne, Turkey. In order to protect Parvin, we're not sharing her last name. And we've posted photos from the scene on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Supervised Consumption Sites

CH: Steve Watts issued a warning yesterday. During a press conference, the Toronto Police Superintendent said, quote, "Purchasing and ingesting street drugs truly is a form of Russian roulette." More than a dozen people overdosed in Toronto on Wednesday night. Soon after police arrested and charged an alleged drug dealer. But they're warning that the tainted drugs could still be on the streets. Joe Cressy is a Toronto City Councillor and the chair of the Toronto Board of Health. He gave more details about what happened to Metro Morning guest host Nil Koksal earlier today.

SOUNDCLIP

JOE CRESSY: We had, as you said, two nights ago, actually 16 people who overdosed at one of our supervised consumption sites. And here's an important message off the top -- these 16 people are alive today because they were at a supervised injection site. So today we're having a conversation about what the tainted drug supply was and how we deal with it rather than having a conversation about 16 deaths and 16 grieving families. And that's because supervised injection works. Here's what we know: It was a tainted drug supply that Toronto Public Health immediately had tested. We found out late yesterday evening that in the drug was a mixture of caffeine, fentanyl and benzos. Benzos are a common sedative like valium and others. And so this was a tainted cut drug. It's purple in colour. And so you had people purchasing drugs on the street, not knowing what was in it, because we don't have a safe supply -- and in turn, overdosing. But thankfully, due to harm reduction, they're alive.

NIL KOKSAL: They are alive due to harm reduction, as you say. But that site did not stop people from getting this tainted combination. Tell us more about the man that was arrested or as much as, you know. How did this all unfold, do you think, on Wednesday night?

JOE CRESSY: Well I think the fact of the matter is that this is not uncommon. We have a toxic tainted drug supply in our streets every single day. The reason we've had 14,000 Canadians die of overdoses in the last four years is because we have a toxic drug supply. In fact, many people talk about the opioid poisoning crisis, not the opioid overdose crisis. And so what we know fundamentally is that if we are going to tackle this opioid crisis that we have, that's killing thousands of people, you cannot arrest your way to a solution. Fundamentally, we need a public health approach to counteract the overdose crisis, and that means a safe supply.

NIL KOKSAL: You know how controversial that sounds for some people who are listening -- to give them the access to that.

JOE CRESSY: You know, six years ago, when I started working on supervised injection sites -- before we had seen the emergence of this crisis as we see it today -- people said supervised injection was controversial. We just saw it save 16 lives two nights ago. In fact, when we started a needle distribution program in the 80s and 90s, because we were seeing a rash of HIV and AIDS cases from tainted needles, people said that was controversial at the time. Often good ideas require us to think differently about complex and challenging issues. And that's what we have to do about drug use.

CH: That was Toronto City Councillor Joe Cressy on the CBC's Metro Morning today.

[Music]

Bernie Sanders: campaign

Guest: Kara Turrentine

CH: Bernie Sanders seems to be the one to beat right now. After some early success in the Democratic Party's presidential primaries, the U.S. senator from Vermont is the frontrunner. But this weekend he faces a test in South Carolina. Joe Biden is confident he's going to win that state's primary tomorrow. And for the sake of his campaign, he better. It's considered a make-or-break moment for the former Vice President's presidential run. Kara Turrentine is with the Bernie Sanders campaign. She's the deputy state director for South Carolina. And we reached Ms. Turrentine in Columbia, South Carolina.

HM: Ms. Turrentine what is the mood like among Bernie Sanders supporters in South Carolina today?

KARA TURRENTINE: We are incredibly excited. We are approaching the epicentre of what we believe will be an upset here in South Carolina. We feel very optimistic. Our volunteers are energized. So we are excited and feeling really good.

HM: You say you're hoping for an upset. I guess that's because the polls actually show that Joe Biden is the favourite to win heading into the state's primary tomorrow. So what would a Biden-win mean, if it does happen, for Senator Sanders just days ahead of Super Tuesday, where the stakes are, of course, so much higher?

KT: I think a Biden-win would mean that the Biden campaign is getting its footing. You know, he's had a really really slow start coming out of Iowa and New Hampshire and in Nevada, where the Bernie Sanders campaign has been the winds on top. And the momentum is growing for the last three contests. And so if Biden is able to pull it off here, I think it will show that he's got a little bit of a footing here. He's getting some stability in terms of his campaign and his messaging. I don't think it means that Bernie Sanders has in any way failed. 90 days ago, we were 30 points down in this state and now we are within the margin of error.

HM: We saw earlier this week that Congressman Jim Clyburn endorsed Joe Biden. He's the most senior African-American in the Congress, and a significant voice in your state, I know. How important is the African-American vote to who takes this state?

KT: I mean I think it's critical. We know that more than 60 per cent of the electorate is African-American. What we are really battling for now is how do we create a standard quality of life in a country where African-Americans have in many ways been left behind. And when we talk about that, we're talking about clean air, fresh water, good food out of the ground, everybody being able to make a minimum wage that allows them to live affordably -- at least $15 an hour, being able to go to a strong public school and go on to a higher education that doesn't saddle them with student debt. We want that for every South Carolinian and for every American in this country. And we want the standard quality of life for even the poorest among us to be good. And so that is what is at stake on the ballot. So we appreciate the state endorsements that the senator has here in the state and what they've done to move the needle for us in South Carolina. And that, I think, is the difference --we want to push a quality of life that sees the value of every person. And so the Clyburn endorsement, I think, is helping Biden in these last couple of hours of the election and get a little bit of a bump. But it does not and will not translate into the energy and the excitement that we see from young people and the energy and excitement that we see from their parents and grandparents that are not just voting for today, but they're voting for the future of their families.

HM: If the message that Senator Sanders is offering is so resonant with African-Americans, why does he appear to be having trouble connecting with them in the polls? Is there something he can do to change that?

KT: Well, I don't think that that's accurate. I think what you see is the Biden campaign holding onto a nostalgia of the Obama candidacy and the Obama presidency. And we are challenging the notion that the black vote is simply anointed because of the connection to Obama. We are out here earning the vote of the African-American community every day, every door knock, every phone call -- we're working for it. And we're earning it. And so it's not accurate to suggest that Bernie Sanders doesn't have the support of the black community. I myself am an African-American. And my parents are in their 70s and they are voting for Bernie Sanders. So this is about the message. This is about the idea that every family, regardless of their zip code, deserves a high quality of life. And African-Americans want that for their families. And so that message is getting out, is breaking through. And the people of colour all over this country and here in South Carolina are voting for Bernie.

HM: We are seeing a lot of moderate American voters saying that they're not comfortable supporting someone who defines himself as a "democratic socialist," who supports Medicare for all -- perhaps the loss of insurance plans they insist they really love. He said these positive things about Fidel Castro's Cuba. He talked in the past about admiring some things in the former Soviet Union. How do you convince those people to support the man?

KT: Nobody loves their insurance company. They love their doctor. And for a lot of people, their doctor has been with them for a very long time. But what we're talking about is that if you are on a vacation and you need medical care, and your doctor is on the other side of the country or the other side of the state, you still need to know that you can go into a hospital and get the care that you need without staggering medical bills that surprise you months later. That's what we're talking about. We're talking about health care as a human right. We're talking about the ability and the confidence to know that if you decide to change careers, you don't have to stay in a job that you don't love because you're going to lose your health care. We're talking about the fact that if you want to start a business, you don't have to worry about not being able to get the care that you need as someone is dealing with or maintaining a chronic illness, because you're going to lose your health care and not be able to go out and start that business. And so we know that these are the issues that working families are concerned about. And we know that there are countries all across the world that provide health care as a human right. This is a standard that we should have in our country. And so I think that we convince people to vote for Bernie Sanders because we cannot afford -- if you're poor and if you're working in this country, you can't afford half measures. You can't afford in-crementalism. You need someone who's going to fight all the way for you. And that is a message that we will take in November and be able to draw folks in to understand that Bernie Sanders is a champion of working families and that is what will convince people to vote for him.

HM: Ms. Turrentine, I appreciate you giving us your time today. Thank you very much.

KT: Thank you so much.

CH: Kara Turrentine runs a campaign management consulting firm. She's the deputy state director for South Carolina and state lead for Tennessee for the Bernie Sanders campaign. She's in Columbia, South Carolina.

[Music]

Coronavirus: Quebec

CH: Quebec has its first presumptive case of the coronavirus, detected in a woman who recently returned from a trip to Iran. But even after that announcement yesterday, the province's health minister, Danielle McCann, says there is no cause to worry. Although she did suggest it might be a good idea for Quebeckers to change the way they say "Hello" to each other, which would mean no greeting people with a double-kiss on the cheeks. Minister McCann spoke to CBC Montreal's "Daybreak" this morning. She said people should remain vigilant and take measures to protect themselves from germs.

SOUNDCLIP

DANIELLE MCCANN: Well, I think the basic and very simple ways are, first of all, to wash our hands as many times as possible with soap, preferably, but also with gel. And certainly to avoid touching your face. And to keep away from people who are coughing. And people who have symptoms should wear a mask.

MIKE FINNERTY: Should we still shake hands the way we normally do with strangers? Or give a two-cheek kiss with strangers in times like these?

DANIELLE MCCANN: Well, that's a very good question because this is our traditional cultural way to do it. But maybe sometimes it's better -- at this point -- it's better to have different ways. You know, some people have done it with the elbow or avoid shaking hands. It avoid the spreading because the hands are really a vector to spread those viruses.

MIKE FINNERTY: Last question. Is there danger in overreacting? Because look at what's going on the stock markets. And people really can get, you know, quite fearful sometimes. And it then has a big impact on the economy and that causes problems.

DANIELLE MCCANN: Yeah, I do understand that. And my colleague, Minister of the Economy, Minister Fitzgibbon, is following the situation very closely. But I want to say that there is no reason at this point to be panicking. I think the situation is in control in Quebec and in Canada. And we are really following it very very closely. And I think at this point, we're in a position where the risk is weak.

CH: That was Quebec Health Minister Danielle McCann speaking with Mike Finnerty, host of CBC Montreal's "Daybreak" this morning. Yesterday, the province announced that it has detected its first presumptive case of coronavirus.

[Music]

Part 3: B.C. First Nation signs historic water agreement with company that flooded it decades ago

B.C. flood settlement

Guest: Corrina Leween

CH: Almost 70 years ago, members of the Cheslatta Carrier First Nation in northern B.C. were told to pack up. They were given just two weeks’ notice to get out to make way for a hydroelectric dam to power the nearby Alcan aluminum smelter in Kitimat. In the ensuing weeks, the community was destroyed by fire and floods. And ever since, people have been trying to get justice and compensation. Today, the Cheslatta Carrier Nation signed an agreement with the company responsible, now known as Rio Tinto. Corrina Leween is the Nation's Chief, and we reached her in Southbank, B.C.

HM: Chief Leween, maybe you could start by taking us back to 1952. And tell us what happened, what people were told when they got this notice that they were to pack up and leave?

CORRINA LEWEEN: Well, there was representatives from the Department of Indian Affairs and the Rio Tinto -- Alcan at the time -- representatives. And they came into the community and had meetings with the people, and basically told them that they had to leave, that the water levels were going to rise and that they had to leave their community. So with a couple of days’ notice, the people packed their bags -- what they could carry -- and left the area. They were given two weeks’ notice. But by the time the community realized that they had to leave, it was a couple of days with their notice.

HM: What happened to these homes after they were left?

CL: They were burned down. They were burnt. And before they left, they buried some of their possessions so they could come back for them. The company used or CIA used metal detectors and found where they had buried some of their possessions and they put them in a big pile and they burned them as well.

HM: And this was to build this hydroelectric dam. The area was then flooded?

CL: Yes.

HM: And you had a cemetery in the area. What happened there?

CL: The cemetery -- when the water started to rise, the people tried to relocate some of the people that were buried in the cemetery to higher grounds. But this cemetery actually ended up washing a lot of our people into Cheslatta's water system.

HM: And is it true that some people have actually found human remains?

CL: Yes. It was only a few years ago that there was a camper at the Cheslatta Lake area and he was camped on the beach and he noticed what he thought were human bones protruding out of the banks. We all went down. We had an archeologist with us. And they uncovered the ground and they found an elderly woman buried there. In Cheslatta we called her "Grandma Cheslatta."

HM: You have family members who were among those displaced back in 1952. What have they said over the years about the long-term impact this had on people who lived there -- this kind of upheaval?

CL: My mom walked out of Cheslatta in 1952 as a young girl. She ended up being one of the statistics of what this dislocation and relocation has done to people -- (she) died at a very young age. Since that time, family members are still dealing with the social impact of that displacement in that there are suicides in our community. There are the addictions issues in our community. We have the homeless issues and all the other social impacts that go with the devastation of having to leave the community.

HM: Why is it significant after all these years for Rio Tinto to come to some sort of settlement with your community?

CL: We had called Rio Tinto to the table and we wanted to create the partnership that will lead -- we knew we are staying here. We knew Rio Tinto was going to stay here. So we went to the table. We called the agreement the "New Day Agreement." And it was a willingness, I think, on both sides to create a partnership where we could work hand-in-hand and work towards an economic solution to the poverty. So we wanted to rebuild our economy, stabilize our cemeteries, re-establish our community with better housing, better education opportunities. And we really wanted to create a stable environment for the economy -- for the past that happened, but also and more importantly for the future generations, so that they don't have to go through what our ancestors went through.

HM: Is there financial compensation then that will help you with the economic improvements going forward?

CL: Yes. And you know, more so we need the capacity to move and do some of the work that we want to do. And then we want to direct it. We want to be in the driver's seat for that. The more important part of this agreement is the procurement and the contracting that is attached to a 30-year availability to participate in access to contracts and to the procurement part of the settlement.

HM: You sound as if you're satisfied that you're going to have the control that you want going forward.

CL: We're very satisfied with the fact that we are going to be in control of our destiny. We worked on this agreement for eight years now, and it wasn't always an easy process for us. But we always were determined. We ensured that the voice of our ancestors, the voice of those people that were lost into the water, the voice of our new generations coming up were heard.

HM: You are not far from the Wet'suwet'en First Nation, whereas you know, there's a conflict with a resource company about what should be happening there. How has your experience influenced how you see that dispute?

CL: Well Cheslatta -- we do not have a hereditary system. We are an elected official by the people. So we don't speak for other communities. And, you know, we've got so much work to do back at Cheslatta on these agreements and our business here. So we don't speak for or against it.

HM: Well, Chief Leween thank you very much and congratulations on reaching this agreement.

CL: Thank you so much. And thank you for talking with us.

HM: Okay. Take care. Bye bye.

CL: Okay, bye bye.

CH: Corrina Leween is the Chief of the Cheslatta Carrier Nation. We reached her in Southbank, B.C.. And you can find more on this story on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Amazon: Hunters

Guest: Pawel Sawicki

SOUNDCLIP

[Dramatic music]

VOICE 1: You could have mother's wish to protect you.

VOICE 2: From what?

VOICE 1: Nazis, Jonah. God damn Nazis!

CH: It's from the trailer for the new Amazon TV show "Hunters." The show follows a group of Nazi hunters in 1970s New York who discovered that hundreds of escaped Nazis are living among them in the U.S.. That might sound like a ridiculous show, but to a lot of people, it's far worse than silly. Since the show's release, a number of Holocaust remembrance groups have spoken up about its depictions of the horrors experienced in Nazi concentration camps, particularly at Auschwitz-Birkenau. Pawel Sawicki works at the Auschwitz Memorial and Museum at Auschwitz-Birkenau. He's in Katowice, Poland.

HM: What is it exactly about the show "Hunters" that you have problems with?

PAWEL SAWICKI: There is one particular scene that we found problematic. It's a scene which, according to the film, happens in the Auschwitz concentration camp. The human chess game where you have prisoners who are supposed to be figures on the huge chess board and they kill each other. And the issue is that this never happened in Auschwitz. This is a story of which, of course, in its cruelty is maybe symbolic, but it distorts the history of suffering of people who were imprisoned and were murdered in Auschwitz. And in our opinion, whether a movie is more a documentary or a feature -- when others decide to use a factual location and the factual place, which was a German Nazi Auschwitz concentration and extermination camp, there should be far more awareness of the fact that took place.

HM: The creator of Hunters, David Weil has said that his grandmother was a Holocaust survivor and that he fictionalized the most horrific parts of the show in order to counteract what he said was the revisionist narrative and to depict the real sadism that was perpetrated at these camps. What do you say to that?

PS: There was a lot of violence and sadness in the world of the camp. And there are many many stories in the words of survivors and many many accounts and testimonies that they left us about the horrifying human tragedy of the place. But when we talk about fighting with revisionist narration, it's very difficult for me to understand why we should fight with people who lie and distort the facts with a story which in itself distorts the reality of Auschwitz. And I think if we want to fight with a lie, we should base it on truth.

HM: There is another issue you have with Amazon. It involves its online catalogue, which carries books that you've described as Nazi propaganda. Tell us more about that.

PS: There are books which are 1 to 1 copies of writings of anti-Semites, members of the Nazi regime that published all those horrible words before the Nazis get power in Germany, but also during their totalitarian regime. And those words were used to poison people's minds. These are anti-Semitic, Nazi, racist attacks which were supposed to convince people who lived in Nazi Germany that Jews are poison mushrooms, that Jews are pests. And these words paved the way towards violence, towards extermination. We believe that they should be removed. This is disrespectful to people who suffered during the Holocaust. And if these books are not academic, critical publications that give the reader the whole context of the story, the story of the text, the story of the author, the problem and challenges of those texts. But when it's just one-to-one copy of texts written in 1930s, which were vicious anti-Semitic propaganda, I don't see a reason why bookstores like Amazon or any others should make profits on them.

HM: And let me just be clear here. One of the authors that we're talking about was a man who was actually executed after a trial at Nuremberg for war crimes.

PS: Yes. That was Streicher who was the editor of one of the most horrifying anti-Semitic publication of the Third Reich. Der Stürmer -- even in the eyes of some of the Nazis was considered to be even a pornographic anti-Semitic propaganda. That even some of the Nazis didn't like the language, and especially when we talk about drawings in Der Stürmer. So these were criminals. And Streicher was sentenced to death not because he was murdering people, but because he used that kind of anti-Semitic language in the publication that poisoned people minds with the ideology of the Third Reich.

HM: I mean, is Amazon given you any indication that they would take these books off of their online store?

PS: In the first two comments that we saw in some media, Amazon first was quite reluctant to remove any of the books from their catalogues. They say that despite people find them objectionable, they will still rather have them. But it seems that the reaction of people, reaction of media that was very strong somehow persuaded Amazon to take down at least some of the publication. However, these are not the only publications from the authors of the Third Reich that are in the stores. So we're continuing to monitor the situation. We will be still searching for those publications within the Amazon catalogue, hoping that the owners will make the ethical decision and will not make profit from horrible words of anti-Semitic propaganda.

HM: Mr. Sawicki thank you very much for explaining this to us. I appreciate it.

PS: Thank you very much.

HM: All right. Goodbye.

CH: Pawel Sawicki works at the Auschwitz Memorial and Museum at Auschwitz-Birkenau. We reached him in Katowice, Poland.

[Music]

Bobby Ryan

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: So the Canucks have lifted. Attacker Bobby Ryan hits a hat-trick! Welcome back!

CH: That was the call on SportsNet last night in Ottawa as the Senators' Bobby Ryan completed his hat-trick against Vancouver. And as he himself said, you couldn't have scripted it any better for his first game on home ice after a three month break. It was Mr. Ryan's 100th day of sobriety. He'd taken the time off to treat an alcohol addiction. After the game, he talked to TSN about what the night meant to him.

SOUNDCLIP

BOBBY RYAN: A hat-trick is great. But we won on home ice and, you know, I contributed...it was just a great night. I'm glad my wife was here. I'm glad I was able to do it at home.

REPORTER: We have a shot of her at the end watching you as the First Star comes out. And I appreciate this -- how tough this is. I guess, can you take me through just this game of what it means to both you and your family?

BOBBY RYAN: Yeah, it's been a long 100 days, you know. And a lot of that, unfortunately, fell to her. And she carried the slack. She allowed me to go away and address things. And, you know, if she hadn't helped me recognize it then I don't know where I'd be. You know, I'd be out there but I'd be swimming. So I'm glad, you know, to achieve the First Star.

REPORTER: The first moment, I guess, of this night that was important or it was poignant, was you sitting on the bench when they're chanting your name, and I can see the emotion in your face. What did that moment mean to?

BOBBY RYAN: Everything. The comments that sift through from people while I was gone -- my email got passed around us to some fans that really kept in touch with me. And I mean, this community is just incredible -- the hockey community, for one, but the Ottawa community as well reaching out. The support for me to come back. And I guess we all got rewarded for the patience, and in the past 100 days and all the tough stuff. It is overwhelming.

CH: Ottawa Senators player Bobby Ryan, who scored three goals on home ice last night after returning from treatment for alcohol addiction.

[Music]

Mrs. Tiggy Winkle's closes

Guest: Eira MacDonnell

CH: For 43 years, Mrs. Tiggy Winkle's has kept her door open to any kid who was walking by. And most of them walked right in because they knew she had one of the best collections of board games, puzzles, and train sets around. I should clarify that Mrs. Tiggy Winkle is not a person. In the Beatrix Potter book, she's a hedgehog who does laundry. And in Ottawa, her name is on a toy store. It's been a much loved fixture in the city since 1977. But this week, Mrs. Tiggy Winkle's announced it's closing up shop for good. Eira MacDonnell has been with the company for 38 years. We reached her at the flagship store on Bank Street in Ottawa.

HM: Eira, why is Mrs. Tiggy Winkle's closing?

EIRA MACDONNELL: We've had just so many different small reasons crop up over the last four or five years that have chipped away at our ability to offer what we would like to consider the best possible retail experience for our customers. I feel like the way that kids play, the way that their parents shop, the amazing other stores that now sell toys that maybe didn't four or five years ago are some of the reasons. The industry is changing. And although we've tried really hard to keep up with some of the expectations from customers, we felt like we were falling short. It's time to move on.

HM: It sounds like you tried to make changes to adapt to a changing retail environment. You had mall locations. I know you closed those. There was this online shop until a few weeks ago. You even offered in-store pickup. So you did try to move with the times and adapt.

EM: We did. And I think we went from being one tiny little store in the Glebe to six thriving stores in the Ottawa area. And as the industry changed and we felt that times were changing, we tried to consolidate. We tried to bring things in close to home so that we were focusing more on what we felt would be viable. It feels like we did as much as we could.

HM: You mentioned earlier that kids are playing differently perhaps these days. Tell us about the kind of products that you guys have carried and why you think maybe interest in those things is waning.

EM: Many of the products that we've sold for four and a half decades we've been in business are still the same. People are definitely still interested in the wooden blocks, and the beautiful wooden train sets, jigsaw puzzles, and board games. There's still a great demand for all of those classic products that have been our bread and butter. [Chuckles] The electronic world has captivated minds and the pocketbooks of families. And I feel like that's just a very -- I'm a parent myself, I understand that -- that is how kids play. And as much as you're hoping as a parents that they'll enjoy the jigsaw puzzle that you bought, you know, there's an expectation that there might be something electronic under the tree or wrapped in that pile of birthday presents. We decided -- we made the decision, I think a very clever decision, not to try to sell electronics. That's not what we do. But then we lose out on that demographic.

HM: You've been working at the store for nearly four decades. I mean that's pretty extraordinary. Can share with us how you first met the owner?

EM: I babysat her children as a teenager. And the creativity and the imagination and the just the powerful-ness of this woman that I babysat for -- her name is Maida Anisman -- captivated me. I was under her spell right from the time I met her. They have an amazing family. And they gave me so much responsibility and so much trust to help look after, first of all, their children and then their stores. That partnering with this wonderful family has made my career amazing. I have been so lucky to be allowed to grow and take on new challenges within this world of ours. I was hooked. And [chuckles] I feel very grateful. I feel grateful to them. And I know that hundreds and hundreds of staff that have worked their way through this this world of ours. I appreciate them as well, because they created a magical workplace that we all benefited from.

HM: The news that Mrs. Tiggy Winkle's is closing seems to be making a lot of people very nostalgic. This is an establishment that had parents who brought toys for their kids and then who bought them for the grandkids later. [EM chuckles in agreement] That builds a lot of relationships, that kind of of loyalty. I'm just wondering what kind of things you're hearing from those customers now that this news is out about what the store meant to them?

EM: I'm actually working at the Bank Street store today. We have a little bit of a "memory wall" set up where people have taken the time to write little messages. And they're reminiscing about the change and growth in Mrs. Tiggy Winkle's as well as the sadness that they don't know where they're going to shop now and they're so emotional. I am overwhelmed.

HM: What do you think is being lost? It's terrible because people are losing the place to shop. Jobs are disappearing. But I imagine there's more to it than that.

EM: I feel like we've been a very good community-based establishment. I had a little girl tell me today that for tradition, her tradition -- she was probably five [chuckles] that her tradition was every Saturday morning that she would go to dance class and then come to Mrs. Tiggy Winkle's to spend her allowance. I loved on a Saturday morning having people who are rushing off to a birthday party at 11 and five or six of the customers [chuckles] in the store, were all going to the same party. And so they were all discussing what to get. And there was a definite camaraderie amongst the clients in the store, which I feel is really special about shopping in your neighbourhood store.

HM: What's next for you Eira?

EM: I'm not really sure. I feel very grateful that I have had the best career ever. Anything is possible.

HM: It's very poignant to hear that an establishment like this is disappearing after so long. Thank you very much for sharing your experiences with us.

EM: I appreciate you taking the time to reach out to us today. It means a lot.

HM: You take care. Bye bye.

EM: Okay, bye bye.

CH: Eira MacDonnell has worked for the Ottawa-toy store Mrs. Tiggy Winkle's for 38 years -- that's nearly as long as it's been open. The company announced this week that it's closing down after 43 years in business.

[Music]

Dino Knowledge

SOUNDCLIP

[Loud growl sound]

CH: That is the sound of a T. Rex roaring in the 1993 movie "Jurassic Park." At the time, most of us figure that sound was accurate. But in 2016, scientists announced a major coup, that is, that dinosaurs cooed. Here's researcher Chad Eliason speaking with As It Happens guest-host Susan Bonner.

SOUNDCLIP

SUSAN BONNER: Okay. So as an expert, you've become very familiar with these sounds now. Can you try to recreate the kinds of sounds you're describing that you believe the dinosaurs were making?

CHAD ELIASON: So I am not able to do, for example, some of these birds that are able to blow up their esophagus like a balloon. I can't do that.

SUSAN BONNER: But can you give us your best shot?

CHAD ELIASON: My best shot of it would be something along the lines of this. [Makes quiet hooting noise] So a kind of a low frequency booming sound. I'm not sure if that came across through the receiver.

SUSAN BONNER: Yeah we heard that.

CH: So T.Rex's don't roar. Just one example of how we keep learning new things about old lizards. That doesn't mean "Jurassic Park" isn't awesome. Especially Jeff Goldblum. It just means it's now a document of our past understanding. The same is true of the British public's very first glimpse of dinosaurs in 1854 -- in statue form, at the Dinosaur Court in the Crystal Palace Park in London. Each massive statue was designed and sculpted by Benjamin Waterhouse Hawkins. Who worked hard to render all their scales with total accuracy. Except, of course, we now know the scale of his inaccuracy because of all the research that's happened since. Well, today the government agency Historic England added those dinosaur statues in Crystal Palace Park to its "heritage at risk" register because 166 years after visitors got their first crack at seeing them, the statues have developed a number of cracks themselves. So now they'll get repaired regardless of their scientific defects because they're still hugely impressive and impressively huge. So what if they're not completely accurate? With dinosaurs, we're always learning. And you know the old adage: if at first you don't succeed, try Triceratops again

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February 28, 2020 Episode Transcript

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