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The Current Transcript for February 14, 2020

Host: Matt Gallaway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

The NDP has consistently ran on environmental policies and then as soon as they've gotten into office, shifted position and gone straight and directly into resource extraction. And if it continues, they will never have the faith of the public or indigenous peoples of Canada.

MATT GALLOWAY: As protests continue across Canada in support of the Wet'suwet'en fight against a pipeline in northern B.C. ,frustration in this province is building towards a government that has proclaimed it wants to work for the environment and with First Nations. Our national affairs panel looks at a growing political crisis engulfing the provincial and now federal governments. That's in 30 minutes. And after that.

SOUNDCLIP

It looks like a lot of people failed and institutions failed. People are looking for answers where mistakes are made and people need to step up and explain.

MG: She was a rising track star. He was her coach. Megan Brown's allegations against gave Dave Scott-Thomas have rocked the Canadian sports world. In an hour, the search for accountability in what some are calling the Me Too moment for amateur athletics. We begin, though, with the search for solutions in the mental health crisis that's spreading across university campuses and the man in this city who's uniquely equipped to address it. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway in Vancouver. This is The Current.

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'You just spiral': UBC president who overcame mental health crisis determined to help Canadian students

Guests: Santa Ono, Shimi Kang

SOUNDCLIP

It is a crisis, it is a challenge, an enormous challenge for me. If there was a simple solution, I swear to God we would implement it tomorrow morning.

MG: A crisis. That is the president of the University of Ottawa, Jacques Fremont, talking about mental health. After five student deaths at that university since the beginning of last year, it's not just Ottawa, though. Universities across this country are struggling with how to help young people. Students like Eleanor Vannan. She suffers from anxiety and depression.

SOUNDCLIP

Most students are petrified when they go to post-secondary. But this was much more. It was a sort of anxiety where I found it very hard to reach out and ask for support. I had certain expectations of myself that I had to be the strongest and the toughest. And all of this happening alongside of thoughts of really low self-worth and value and thinking that I didn't deserve to be in post-secondary education. I remember the moment where I had to kind of address my anxiety when I had four papers, all due on one day and I was wandering across the campus panicking, thinking, I don't know that I have enough time to do all of the reading for this work. And I kind of found a quiet pension. I sat down and I started hyperventilating and crying and I sat there and I just froze up. And that panic that I had through anxiety really fed into some depression. And when you feel like you can't do it, then you're not good enough. And if you're not good enough, then you're not worth anything.

MG: Eleanor Vannan's experience isn't unique for young people like her seeking help, there are often long wait times for counselling on campus. The government of British Columbia has just added a layer of support; a new 24/7 online and phone service for students with mental health concerns. In Ontario, new funding will allow the existing kids help phone service to expand and provide support for college and university students. Santa Ono knows this issue all too well. Both personally and professionally. Santa Ono is president of UBC. Good morning.

SANTA ONO: Good morning.

MG: Glad to have you here. When you hear stories like that from Eleanor, what goes through your mind?

SANTA ONO: First, with the hat of being UBC president, I really think about what we're doing and what more we can do. I think about also my time, my struggles when I was around that age and how far we've actually come compared to what was available then.

MG: I just wonder whether in your conversations with students, that idea of being overwhelmed, that idea of the panic that comes when it feels like you have everything do at the same time and you wonder whether you're up to it, whether that's a familiar sentiment that you hear from students.

SANTA ONO: It's very common, especially among individuals, that on the surface may not look like they're struggling. We have at UBC as well as at many institutions around the world. Highly motivated individuals that have a lot of pressure put on them by themselves, but also by their faculty members and parents.

MG: I want to talk about that pressure in a moment. You mentioned your own story and this is something that you've been very open and talking about. Tell me about your struggle with mental health and when that began.

SANTA ONO: Well, it began around the age of 14, about 43 years ago. It's relatively early for someone to struggle about suicide. It had to do with a number of things. Part of it had to do with the fact that I was sandwiched by two child prodigies. I was a pretty average. And so feelings of inadequacy were part of it. The other part was that I was an ethnic minority and immigrant living in a predominantly Caucasian neighbourhood and not feeling as if I belonged. And so really a confluence of things I think resulted in my first suicide attempt at age of 14.

MG: What happened?

SANTA ONO: You know, I was increasingly feeling hopeless. I was increasingly feeling as if I was inadequate, that I brought shame to my family. And what happened was that one evening when my parents were watching the news, I went upstairs and went into the to the bathroom, opened the medicine cabinet and took a bunch of courtside in which is an adult cold medication and took as many of those as I could. But I didn't wake up until quite late in the afternoon, the day after. So I think was pretty impulsive. I didn't think I was old enough to really plan or think about it, but I was simply hopeless.

MG: This happened again later on in life in university. Tell me about that.

SANTA ONO: It happened actually over a period of a number of years. There were only two attempts in my life, but I really went through periods of excitement, euphoria, optimism and several days at a time where I was very, very depressed and hopeless and where I would even be in my bed in a dorm room and couldn't even wake up and couldn't bathe myself or eat. And you just spiral into deeper and deeper depression. So that's what I experienced on and off during several years of my life. I'm fine now, thank goodness, because finally I received the kind of support that I needed for the longest time. But it's really hard to get to the point where you are actually seeing people who can help you, especially when you're so young.

MG: In the midst of that and you've kind of hinted at this, there can be a sense that there is no way out, that everything that is happening around you is overwhelming and the pressure is simply too much to bear. What was it as you're in the midst of those experiences that got you through them?

SANTA ONO: I'm really not sure. I think that at different moments there was one special person that really got through that cloud - because you feel like you're in a fog - and somebody who you really believe cares about you and who is listening, not judging. I think it takes a special person and some people just know what to do instinctively. I wish there were many more people who were trained to see the signs of someone struggling and knowing what they can do and when they need to refer.

MG: Part of this is it is about not knowing who to talk to. We talk a lot as a society about the stigma around mental illness, and we will pat ourselves on the back sometimes and say that we're doing a good job and trying to dismantle that stigma. But it still exists and it exists throughout society. You are a prominent individual. You have an important position, an influential position. Were you always comfortable in talking about this?

SANTA ONO: Absolutely not. It wasn't until just a few years ago that I spoke about it at all. I spoke about it behind closed doors. I spoke about it with professional psychiatrist that I trusted because of their oath of being confidential, about patient matters. But I didn't speak about it in general. I think there is good reason that people are afraid to speak about it. And the more people speak about it, people like Prince Harry and Prince William, the more I think that people would be comfortable talking about. And there's no reason for people to be ashamed or to be afraid. But it's a work in process getting to that stage as a society.

MG: What were you afraid of?

SANTA ONO: Well, I'll tell you, academia is quite judgmental. You go through a number of different hurdles to get to a place where you have tenure and you're promoted. All of those are judgment processes where data is collected about how you're performing and how you're publishing and the impact of your work and what people think about you. And so for me, I was afraid to talk about my life history, my life experience. I think the reason why I felt confident enough about talking about my life is that first I was encouraged by hearing much younger people talk about their experiences being so brave. They inspired me. And when I spoke about it, I had long been a tenured professor. I'd held endowed chairs. I was president of a university. I felt tremendous support from the board at University of Cincinnati. If I can't talk openly about my past struggles, who can.

MG: In the position that you're in now, again, as the president of a prestigious university, somebody with influence, how does what you have experienced in your own life shape how you lead UBC?

SANTA ONO: Well, I always remember how I felt. I always remember being in my bedroom in the dorm, feeling hopeless. I think it's important for me to never forget that because there are thousands of those sorts of people.

MG: And this is a familiar story across the country. I mean, it's here at your university perhaps, but it's but it's across the country and around the world.

SANTA ONO: Around the world. Around the world. It's at least one in five, probably even more common, that university students, because they're in high pressure situations, especially those that are trying to excel in music or in sport. It's very, very common.

MG: One of the interesting things about this is that this is a conversation that's been around for some time. I remember a handful of years ago I hosted a town hall on a university campus. And we talked and we heard from students about what people believed was a mental health crisis on campus. And at that point, even there were some people who said that's a strong word crisis. And the students said this is what's happening right now. Do you believe that there is a mental health crisis that's happening on campuses?

MG: It's been a crisis that has been around for some time, as you intimate, the good news is that we're being motivated and we're putting in the resources that have been needed for a long time. If I think back to when I was in university, I was once called into an academic counselor's office who had noticed that some of my grades and some of the courses were dropping precipitously. And all that person said is, are you okay? And that was it. And I had to leave. There were no resources. I wasn't referred to anyone. And so if you look at what was available then to what's available now at many institutions, it's much better. But we have to eliminate the wait time and we have to provide even more support.

MG: You talked about pressures in your own life. And we heard that as well from the students that we heard at the beginning of the conversation. How are the pressures now on students different than in years past?

SANTA ONO: Well, it's really hard for me to compare, but I can tell you that the most profound moment for me was when the president of the student body in the Okanagan campus asked thousands of entering students whether they were optimistic about the future of the world. Only one hand went up out of thousands. And so to answer your question, what's different? I honestly believe that a lot of university students are worried about the future of the world, about their futures. And that is compounded upon what we worried about when we were in university.

MG: The pressure. I mean, that's a big picture. Pressure. I mean, on campuses, is it about pressure coming from family members? Is it about pressure coming from their own expectations? Is it something that's different now because of the world that we live in and the connectedness of it, but also perhaps at a job market where the jobs that they might have been on the track for are vanishing in front of their very eyes? What's happening in the real world, if I can put it that way, that they would experience day to day on campus that's different?

SANTA ONO: It's multi-factorial. It's all of the things that you've mentioned. But I really want to come back to, if you don't mind, that I really do think that their sense of hopelessness about what's happening with climate change and their real concern about the viability of the planet is something that is affecting them as well.

MG: Dr. Shimi Kang has been listening to our conversation. She is a psychiatrist and author with a special focus in particular on mental health and addiction and youth. Good morning to you.

SHIMI KANG: Good morning. What do you make of what you've been hearing in particular, the stories not just of students now, but students past and something that we many of us have experienced in our time at school. Does that sound familiar to you?

SHIMI KANG: Yes, absolutely. And we need to hear more of these stories. And I really applied UBC and Professor Ono for talking about his personal story, having those types of stories out there so young people can hear them and resonate and connect with them, give them hope is really a key. I bring them up in my own practice all the time.

MG: What is happening in the brains of young people as they are in college or university? I mean, what's going on in the head of a post-secondary student?

SHIMI KANG: Really important to understand. And I tell my patients this all the time. I say to your body, finish puberty by grade twelve, but your brain is still going through puberty and it will tell about 24. And in fact, forever, because we have neuroplasticity, we can always change. And it's really important that die young brain under-25 is exquisitely sensitive to some particular things. The most is social connection. And any feelings of isolation disconnection which are increasing, our research shows that particularly technology is a factor in there, but our general societal structure. Children are too busy, you know, from a very young age in favouring things like competition over collaboration. All of these messages are very toxic.

MG: So when all of that is happening and the students then step into the post-secondary arena where there are enormous expectations and everything that you thought you knew in some ways about your life gets turned upside down and inside out. What happens?

SHIMI KANG: Well, this is where I think. We see these feelings of feeling empty and lost. And again, if we go back to the neurochemistry, if we're not socially connected, we don't get oxytocin and we'll release what's called cortisol, a stress hormone neurochemical. And that really many people have heard of the stress response, which is freeze, fight or flight. I tell my patients that that freeze, fight or flight in animals might be a deer in headlights. By our freeze is anxiety were mentally frozen. We procrastinate. We can't make a decision. Our fight is we're irritable and angry at the world and ourselves and our flight is any kind of mental escape. So we drink alcohol, we smoke marijuana, we go shopping or we go on social media. And if we really understand those three aspects of the stress response, we will see anxiety, irritability and distraction everywhere.

MG: What is it, then, that universities and colleges can do to ease that transition?

SHIMI KANG: I think that a first year university experience that has a primary focus on community and connection. So those orientation weeks, those mandated group projects trying at best. I know it's not always possible to really bring students together. Looking at each other, literally seeing each other's faces and eyeballs is now becoming more and more important. And then also encouraging that that open ended learning, maybe reducing evaluations as much as possible, at least in that first six months. I know it's not possible in every set setting.

MG: Is that realistic? I mean, university in many ways, it's a lot of different experiences, but the marks are so important.

SHIMI KANG: I would say that resiliency, creativity are two sides of the same coin and perfectionism is the opposite. So when we over evaluate, we do get perfectionism and that is a direct inhibitor of human innovation, which is what we all want as university education. Are innovators and creators young people who can solve problems centre.

SANTA ONO: There is a different way to interact with students and to set expectations that will lead to better mental health. So I was just yesterday with our vice president of student affairs. We have a very, very successful athlete, vastly athletic program. The most decorated such program in Canada. But we've also had athletes, scholar athletes that have committed suicide because they don't feel they're good enough. They need to be faster. They need to be score more goals, things like that. And we have intentionally as an institution, tried to move away from that. We still want wanted to win. But we are very intentional that winning is not a top priority, the top priority for us as an institution. We're going to say this loud and clear. Is there wellness?

MG: Joe Henry is dean of students at King's University College at Western University in London, Ontario. He wrote an opinion piece last week about putting student mental health into perspective. Have a listen.

SOUNDCLIP

20 years ago, there's some students that wouldn't see themselves on a university campus, but with the support of family and people around them, they see university as a reality. But then when they bump up against some of the requirements associated with their program, that can be a challenge. So I think the complexity of the cases that we're dealing with impacting our ability to respond in an effective way. And the challenge is when is that line of when we need to work with a community partner? And then the challenge becomes, as those can be, partners are already tapped out.

MG: Shimi Kang, what do you make of that? And in some ways that there is a huge burden, an unfair burden, perhaps placed on universities to address the mental health concerns that are being raised on campus. Is that unfair for the universities to have that burden put on them?

SHIMI KANG: I think it is. We have to understand universities are inheriting, you know, young people who are coming from a system, a school system that also, I think is working hard but we still have a ways to go. Something called social. Emotional learning is very well evidence in terms of helping improve not just mental health, but social connection. So even if the goal is academics, when we teach young people emotional skills, social skills, we see better mental health. We see kids with better personalities, less bullying, we see better social environment, we see more innovation, which is what we want. So that kind of system approach. And then also, I would have to say, educating and helping parents reduce the pressure that they are placing on young people at a very young age.

MG: Santa Ono, is it unfair to expect the university to be able to provide all of the support services?

SANTA ONO: I would say no. Universities are a very privileged institutions that I think more than any other institution have the capacity to impact system wide change. We educate future superintendents, we educate teachers. And so we really have a platform where although we can't control all of the situations, different parts of the ecosystem, that we have influence. Over them all, and so I think we have a responsibility. It's not an issue of ferrets. It's an issue of standing up to the to the challenge and in being a leader.

MG: It's a real pleasure to talk about the work that you're doing and the life that you have had that has influenced that work. Thank you.

SANTA ONO: Thank you.

MG: Dr. Shimi, thank you.

SHIMI KANG: Thank you.

Dr. Shimi Kang is a psychiatrist and author. Santa Ono is president of the University of British Columbia. Almost every campus or community has a local mental health crisis hotline. Canada's National Suicide Hotline can be reached at 1 8 3 3 4 5 6 4 5 6 6. And someone is there all the time waiting to take a call. You can also connect by text. The number there is 4 5 6 4 5. CBC News is next. And then.

SOUNDCLIP

There's also where black folks were allowed to be. There's a lot of discriminatory practices in Vancouver at the time. So this was the multicultural area over standing right adjacent to Chinatown. This is where a lot of racialized people lived. And so that's where black folks could find home to.

MG: Hogan's Alley was once a thriving neighbourhood for the black community here in Vancouver. Now it's gone. We'll hear about efforts to bring it back. I'm Matt Galloway in Vancouver. And this is The Current. Stick around.

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National affairs panel on pipeline protests

Guests: JP Tasker, Niigan Sinclair, Vaughan Palmer

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway in Vancouver. And you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, a high profile Canadian track coach has been dismissed from his job amidst allegations of sexual misconduct. We'll speak with some runners looking for answers. That's in half an hour. But first, the political fallout from protests.

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SOUNDCLIP

My loved ones are living in conditions of third world country. That is the reality we're talking about the most basic necessities of life. But yet the resources that you are extracting, none of you came here with land. None of you came with our resources. Those diamonds are our diamonds. The gold, the silver, the chromite, the oil, the trees. This country was built on racism and I'm done with that.

MG: That's a First Nations protester on Tyendinaga Mohawk territory in Ontario yesterday. The site of just one of the blockades set up across Canada. For many, the solidarity with members of the Wet'suwet'en goes beyond just opposition to the coastal gasoline pipeline, with VIA cancelling most of the trains across the country and CN cancelling its trains in eastern Canada. There is growing pressure on the federal government to resolve this situation. Our national affairs panel is here to discuss that. JP Tasker is senior writer at CBS Parliamentary Bureau. Niigan Sinclair is a columnist for the Winnipeg Free Press and Vaughan Palmer is provincial affairs columnist for The Vancouver Sun. Good morning to you all.

NIIGAN SINCLAIR: Hello.

JP TASKER: Hello there.

VAUGHAN PALMER: Hi.

MG: JP, we'll start with you. The federal government has jurisdiction over the railways. These railways are increasingly being shut down. What is the government said that it'll do to end this?

JP TASKER: Well, they haven't said a whole lot, frankly, to this point. There's been a flurry of letters exchanged between federal ministers and the indigenous groups in question. The prime minister has made some statements on the tarmac in Munich, but we don't really have a clear idea of how they're going to proceed with this. As you say, the Railway Safety Act is definitely federal jurisdiction. They are regulated by the federal government. Indigenous nation to nation relationships are exclusively the jurisdiction of the federal government, and yet we don't really know how they're going to proceed. And Marc Garneau is meeting with his provincial counterparts, the transport ministers of this country today. But there has been very little indication as to what they'll do. Will they, you know, force police forces across this country to put those injunctions in place, to direct the police, to haul protesters off the tracks or really take a more delegate approach of being this is a week into these protests and there doesn't seem to be any action. The Mohawks of Tyendinaga seem to be digging in today. Over the last couple of days, they don't want to leave in solitary with the Wet'suwet'en. And so Ottawa has a difficult choice to make over the next coming hours.

MG: The Prime Minister's also said that Carolyn Bennett, the Minister for Crown Indigenous Relations, will be at a meeting between the B.C. Indigenous Relations Minister Scott Fraser and Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs as well. What do we think might come out of that meeting, JP?

JP TASKER: Well, we know that the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs have really stood against this and the Gitxsan, the neighbouring First Nations, has have acted in solidarity with them as well. They've blocked a Wales and New Hazelton, B.C., leading into the Port of Prince, Rupert, a really key port in this country. We don't really know what that will come from this. I mean, there's been a real divide within the Wet'suwet'en community, right? The elected ban councils have agreed to allow coastal gaslink to be constructed through this territory, but they only represent the bands and the on reserve part of this territory. They don't represent the unclaimed part. So we might see some movement on a treaty, perhaps maybe the Crown Indigenous Relations Minister will commit to having the federal government engage more with these folks who are demanding that their indigenous rights and title be finally recognized, that it has not happened to this point.

MG: Niigan Sinclair, These protests are happening right across the country and have grown, it seems like, not just day by day, but even faster than that. How surprised are you by how far and wide these protests have become?

NIIGAN SINCLAIR: Not at all. Since the days of Idle No More were going on, eight, nine years of activism that rocked the country, reminded the country that indigenous peoples are not only here, but we are a forced to be reckoned with. The absolute creativity and resilience of indigenous peoples on the on issues involving, not just within their own community, but also the larger framework and the ongoing oppression that indigenous peoples face across the country. What I mean, when I say creativity, it's they're fully aware that blocking train lines is not only a historical irony, meaning we've had our lands stolen for train lines, but also that we're fully aware that, you know, welcome to indigenous life and experiencing having an economy that is both manipulated but is also stopped in such a way that you're given a moment to pause, to reflect on the connection between economy and the environment and the ongoing economic agenda in this country that only stomps on indigenous peoples, but also completely obliterates the environmental agenda.

MG: Do you see this as the next chapter of Idle No More?

NIIGAN SINCLAIR: Well, Idle No More was as this was a chain on a long journey and this is a another step going all the way back to the 1970s. The Native People's Caravan, you know, into the 1990s with Oka and Gustafsen Lake and then Burnt Church and then Ipperwash and then of course, with Idle No more and then today. What this really reminds you of is that Canada's ongoing oppression is very present. The Indian act is still here. The Indian act still continues to choke the life out of First Nations and also indigenous peoples across the country and Canada doesn't follow its own rule of law. Canada ignores Supreme Court decisions, ignores the indigenous rights and then just simply stomps on and looks for people to agree. And in this case, it's Indian act chiefs, while they've already recognized hereditary chiefs in the Delgamuukw decision.

MG: Vaughn Palmer, this is a national story, but the roots are here in British Columbia. The Premier, John Horgan, spoke the other day and seemed angry and how he was responding to what happened at the legislature when his government was trying to deliver a throne speech. What sort of challenge is this posing for the provincial government here in B.C.?

VAUGHAN PALMER: It was a very bad day for Premier John Horgan. You're right, angry. He cancelled his media meeting on Throne Speech Day, which he's normally a very gregarious and outgoing politician. He cancelled it. He met with reporters the next day. So he met with reporters on Wednesday. And he said, look, I wanted to think about this. He took overnight. He answered a lot of questions at that point. But no, he was, I think, quite taken aback. They blocked access to the legislature for the better part of the day. You could get in and out, but you needed the security staff to clear the way for you. Now, yesterday afternoon in court in Victoria, B.C. Supreme Court, there's an injunction against any further obstruction of access to the building. So for Horgan and his government, Tuesday of next week is budget day. Of course, that's a big day for governments as well. So that part of the problem is dealt with. But the challenge is huge. Premier spoke to the prime minister on the telephone this week. They had, I gather, a pretty good exchange, but it's not 100 percent clear by any means how this goes.

MG: What's your sense phone as to where public opinion is here in B.C.?

VAUGHAN PALMER: You know, I think the problem on public opinion is that people are pretty angry because a lot of people have been inconvenienced. You've had blockages of buses, because of blockages of intersections in Vancouver. You had a case where there was an obstruction near the hospital in Vancouver. So ambulances were being diverted. You've had bridges here in the provincial capital blocked for commuter time. So, you know, I think there's not an awful lot of public patience with this in British Columbia. British Columbians are, well, well aware of the history and all the issues around it. The other thing is, you know, the Horgan government did think that it had made sufficient effort to get this project approved. And they knew that obstruction, the holdout group there of five leaders was there. But I don't think they realized by any means that it was going to spread the way it has. And as you say, right across the country.

MG: While this is happening, JP, the prime minister is hobnobbing in Africa, looking for votes for the U.N. Security Council seat. Is it a good look for the prime minister to be away while this story continues to burn?

JP TASKER: Well, then he's also head to Barbados on Monday. So the trip continues around the world. It's not a great look, frankly, because, I mean, CN rail moves $250 billion worth of goods across its line every years. This is a huge part of our economy. And the main line in eastern Canada has been shut down over this.

MG: And you've seen the opposition leaders Jagmeet Singh and Andrew Scheer. Well, Jugmeet Singh saying that the prime minister needs to come back. Andrew Scheer saying that these blockades are illegal and the prime minister has to put an end to them.

JP TASKER: Yes and there doesn't seem to be a great sense of urgency. Indigenous services, Marc Miller, you know, Trudeau has said he'll send him to me with the Tyendinaga, but that's not going to happen till tomorrow. You know, CN is in the midst of shutting down the line. There could be layoffs as a result of this. There are warnings that there will there'll be trouble moving, some of the products cross that line, things like de-icing fluid for airports, jet fuel, propane, chlorine for municipal water supplies, all things that move through rail. That's not happening today. And we really are only getting statements and things, you know, over e-mail from ministers responsible for this. There's been no clear action taken by Ottawa to this point on a really critical point in this country's history.

MG: Niigan Sinclair, what do you make of that? No clear action taken to this point on this critical issue?

NIIGAN SINCLAIR: This is absolutely an issue that the prime minister is fearful to touch. and has is and is completely shied away from engaging as this is even goes so far to say this is a provincial issue,.

MG: Despite the fact that he came into power talking about a nation to nation relationship?

NIIGAN SINCLAIR: When absolutely the issue is a federal issue. I mean, this is a problem. And I think what I would just say is I think Vaughan made a really excellent point in a column yesterday of talking about, you know, the provincial B.C. NDP recognizing previously the hereditary chiefs that the now being in power and saying, oh, no, the Indian Act chiefs matter. This is a perfect example of the federal government needs to be involved in this issue and has to realise that there is a real critical issue here. While the Crown and the federal government has recognized that the crown's illegitimate claim in 1763 that all the lands in North America are the crowns and then making that law and so on and so forth and lives under that premise. There is no treaties in B.C., so there is no legitimate claim for Canada to be able to hammer through this pipeline, impose governments like Indian Act governments, and then just walk away and say, oh, this is a provincial issue. This is direct. Well, the situation that's been created from the federal government and the provincial government has now inherited this and following the rule of law Canada's setting, when the fact is that they have absolutely no legitimate legal claim to be able to claim the lands for the Wet’suwet’en people.

MG: Vaughn Palmer, where does that leave? Just briefly, where does that leave the provincial government?

VAUGHAN PALMER: They are hoping federal and provincial government now that they can get together with the Wet'suwet'en people. But that would suit. And community, as you've noted, has been divided along time. And this encampment in that area, that blocking the path of that coastal gasoline pipeline that goes back almost 10 years. So provincial governments have been aware of it for a long time. It's quite right to say that when the prime minister was first asked about this out here a few weeks ago, he said, well, that's a provincial project. It doesn't cross provincial boundaries to Alberta. Unlike the Trans Mountain pipeline. So basically, the provincial government is going to deal with this. Well, I think we've discovered that the government cannot deal with this on its own. It is going to need the federal government to get engaged and quickly and in depth.

MG: Niigaan, where does this leave the issue of reconciliation. That issue of the flag upside down and it said on the flag, reconciliation is dead. That was hanging outside --

NIIGAN SINCLAIR: The symbolism is endless with this. And I think Vaughan's absolutely right in that the federal government, by shying away from this. But with the reason the federal government is staying away from this, because the Trans Mountain pipeline extension has just been, you know, the first nations that have appealed that decision that's been thrown out of court. And so now there's an ongoing struggle. Of course, we can't forget the teck mine situation in northern Alberta. The federal government is fully aware that there is more struggles to come, more situations that are going to be very combative in that first nations are not going to tolerate any further the ongoing trampling on their rights. And so the federal government is just turning its eye away from this issue and is completely fearful to deal with it.

MG: So is reconciliation dead, as it said on that banner?

NIIGAN SINCLAIR: What I would say is that reconciliation is happening in micro examples throughout the country. It happens in situations right here in Winnipeg. It happens in areas on a smaller level. And in fact, I see the situation of indigenous peoples continuing to follow lawful means in demonstrating as being instances of demonstration of reconciliation. But I think at the macro level, at the large federal government level and provincial level, it's really in a very dire situation.

MG: Is this about - and I want to get all your thoughts on this just briefly when we wrap up - but is this about you mentioned the Indian act at the very beginning of this Niigaan, is that what this is really about? That if you want to try and resolve these issues, that's the thing that you need to try and look at.

NIIGAN SINCLAIR: No. The fact is that the law in Canada is absolutely illegitimate. It's based on that. The land is empty and that there if there were people there, they didn't use it appropriately and that the king simply declared it in 1763 and then Canada therefore made it law and then imposed the Indian act, which meant absolute draconian control. And what I've said is Canadians and indigenous peoples are waking up to the notion that the politics of control and domination and oppression is not suitable any further. And we can't live in a world in which the British Columbia provincial government adopts the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and then just ignores it when it comes to an economic project.

MG: JP Tasker, if you're the federal government and you have come into power again talking about building a nation to nation relationship and made reconciliation such a front and centre issue. What does this do to Justin Trudeau's government?

JP TASKER: Well, I think it's important to emphasise that these folks are not a monolith. That there are First Nations people in this community that support this development. You know, all 20 first nations impacted by this construction of the coastal gaslink have signed impact benefit agreements, all the band councils, whether they're legitimate or not, have signed on. There have been referendums in these communities where people have supported the construction of coastal gas link. A full third of the fifty five hundred people that will work on this project are indigenous. $620 million will be flowed to indigenous contractors to help build this thing. So it's not like all indigenous folks in this area are against the project. So I think the prime minister has to say, look, we have to balance competing interests here. Sure, there are hereditary chiefs who have legitimate claim to the traditional territory. But there are also all these folks in the other communities that are on board. And so it's a very delicate thing to do because so much money is on the line for some people in a place where there aren't a lot of other economic options, where oil and gas is potentially a way forward in a place where economic activity is limited. So it's going to be really tough because there are a lot of people, you know, we've seen some other people come forward to say these hereditary chiefs don't speak for me and I'm happy that my son has a job, you know, pipe fitting here when this comes down the line.

NIIGAN SINCLAIR: I appreciate what JP has to say. I just want to say that benefit agreements are not consent. Benefit agreements are not situations in which people have a choice. That's not consent. There are just simply people having no city with no other choice and accepting money and situations in jobs, in situations which they have no opportunity.

MG: Vaughn Palmer, just. Last minute that we have. Is there any hint that resolution is anywhere near the horizon?

VAUGHAN PALMER: There is a great hope that Wet'suwet'en people themselves, the premier said this the other day, that community has really it's there for them to sort this out. And there is a great hope that that community is going to get together. They've not had the meeting yet. I don't believe but that they will themselves work this out. And if they do, of course, that would be great. But you're quite right when you point out that there's an awful lot of people in First Nations, people that have been coming forward and saying, no, I want this project. I want this job. This is our future. So they are a divided community themselves. And that's still probably the best hope for sorting this out.

MG: It's great to speak with you all about this. And we will continue to follow this in days ahead. Thank you. We'd like to thank you. JP tasker, senior writer for CBC Parliamentary Bureau. Niigan Sinclair is a columnist for the Winnipeg Free Press and Vaughan Palmer, columnist for The Vancouver Sun. You can comment on this on Twitter at the current CBC or through our website. cbc.ca/thecurrent.

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'It was everything': Vancouver non-profit offers a new vision for Hogan's Alley

Guests: Stephanie Allen

MG: This is indeed The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. I've been in Vancouver all week, spent a lot of time in and around Chinatown talking about the future of that community. There is another neighbourhood, though, that came up a few times in our conversations. It's right next door. It's called Hogan's Alley. It's not really a neighbourhood anymore, though. There's a plaque and a mural that's just about all that indicates this busy street corner was once the hub for the black community. Hogan's Alley Society wants to change that. Stephanie Allen is a founding member of that group. And I met her in the alley on a rainy Vancouver morning and asked why people came here in the early 1990s.

SOUNDCLIP

STEPHANIE ALLEN: Why they came and settled here. This was the end, of course, of the railway line. So a lot of black men working as porters on the railroad. So this was a kind of a hub area was also where black folks were allowed to be. There's a lot of discriminatory practices in Vancouver at the time. So this was the multicultural area. Nowhere standing right adjacent to Chinatown. This is where a lot of racialized people lived. And so that's where black folks can find home, too.

MG: And so if I was here when the community was really coming together, what would I have seen?

STEPHANIE ALLEN: It had everything. You had small businesses were standing on the side of Vyse, chicken and steaks. This was one of the more notorious spots. When the, you know, famous musicians would come to town, this is where they came after this was the after party. And you'd see families, you know, a lot of families lived in this neighbourhood, kids going to the local schools. And you also had the speakeasies and the juke joints and prostitution houses. It was everything. You know, black folks here not really getting access into the main economy. So a lot of them resorting to the informal economy as well.

MG: Aside from the businesses, what were the community hubs that were here?

STEPHANIE ALLEN: The biggest hub was the church. So 1911 Norah Hendrix, grandmother of Jimi Hendrix, got together with the community. And they really worked hard to scrape together the nickels and dimes to buy the building that sat Jackson Street and prior. And it was the anatomy church that actually formed there. And it was the heart of the community. And they have the names on the role of that church rose up as high as 80 at one point. Really a black church right here in Vancouver.

MG: Jimi Hendrix's grandmother.

STEPHANIE ALLEN: Yeah, Jimi Hendrix, grandmother, Norah Hendrix. She was a vaudevillian. She was a performer. She was very active in community. And when the church formed, you know that's what the- then there was the choir. And so she was active there. And there's some history of Jimi spending some time here visiting his grandmother. So it kind of becomes this, you know, one of our local stories as well.

MG: Is there a story behind the name, Hogan?

STEPHANIE ALLEN: Do you know what? It was a name given to a lot of Low-Income Racialized communities across North America. There was no Hogan here in Vancouver. There's actually Hogans Alleys across Canada. There's some places in the interior that had an Hogan's Alley. There's places in the states. It was based on a comic book and a writer by the name of Wade Compton. Really daylighted that in some of his writing.

MG: So we're in an alleyway now and I mean, it still looks like an alleyway, but you would never know that this community was here. When did things start to change?

STEPHANIE ALLEN: Well, if you turn over to the to your right here, you'll see there's a big freeway structure that sits on top of that block, that kind of the heart of the community. And things were changing, I would say, kind of in the 30s. The community was now called a slum, you know, and it was ghettoized. You know, that's what happens when you push a lot of low-income people into one area, deprive them of opportunity, and then don't take care of the place. The city didn't invest in the infrastructure there and it fell apart. So you can see in the archives the history shows that there was a lot of attention being paid to that neighbourhood. And you know what to do with it, how to solve the human misery. And the adjectives are are tragic. The way that you describe the folks that live there instead of understanding the social and economic conditions they were in. It was really seen as a problem of people.

MG: And so this viaduct goes up. What happens to those?

STEPHANIE ALLEN: So it was overtime. They pushed them out, there were ordinances. There was zoning this area, too, industrial heavy polluting industries were right next door to where people live. Their housing values were going down. One of the descendants tells us about how the city bought the house next door, boarded it up, and now the place started to fall apart. So his family was, you know, kind of realise the writing was on the wall and folks started to leave this area and take their chances integrating into other neighbourhoods. We have stories in the oral history of one family that moved out to Burnaby, but by the time they got there, there was a petition already signed by the white community not wanting them in their neighbourhoods. So there was a lot of of opposition to black people here in the city at the time.

MG: What did that mean for the black community in Vancouver? Where is it now?

STEPHANIE ALLEN: It's gone. It's dispersed. You know, we're still here. We're 1.2 percent of the population in Vancouver, where one of the lowest black populations in any major city in Canada. And we really struggle because as Adam Rutter, who wrote about this historian, talked about, we kind of have this hyper visibility. So we're, you know, five times a carding rate by the VPD. But we're also invisible when it comes to social policy, when it comes to economic policy and when it comes to civic life. So the impact has been long lasting. And people of African descent here have been rallying around a new vision for this site.

MG: So there is a plaque that's just next to us here. There's a mural that's across the road and down the way. What else do you want to see to commemorate what this neighbourhood was?

STEPHANIE ALLEN: Well, when the city made plans to look at removing the street system and redeveloping this whole area of the city, we realized this was a great opportunity for redress. And now our idea and our vision is for a community land trust. The black community has put forward a proposal for all rental housing to be built here with small community business spaces, non-profit spaces that would work well in this neighbourhood, that would fit with Chinatown, with the Downtown Eastside, eliminate gentrification pressure, but really bring a vibrancy back to this community with a cultural centre as the heart of it.

MG: And so if we were to come here in 10 years time and that vision were to be realized, what would we see in this site?

STEPHANIE ALLEN: Oh wow, that gave me a smile on a rainy morning. My hope is that we see the type of vision that the community has created. That it's got people of African descent prioritise, but that it's really a place for everyone, that there's a thriving 24/7 cultural centre here that really showcases black history and black culture in this city and that people who desperately need affordable housing have a great place to call home. I mean, that would give me a great reason to be quiet and not do any of this anymore.

MG: Thank you very much.

STEPHANIE ALLEN: Thank you so much.

MG: Stephanie Allen. She's a founding member of the Hogan's Alley Society in Vancouver, talking to me on a rainy morning yesterday in downtown Vancouver. Well, coming up in our next half hour.

SOUNDCLIP

We have to keep women in sport. We have to be strong and stand up. We can't shy away from something like this. Of course, we want to protect our children, but we have to be out there and respect ourselves and demand more.

MG: For starters, the demand is for answers after a high profile running coach was dismissed. We'll talk about the fallout coming up in 90 seconds after the break. My name is Matt Galloway in Vancouver this week. And you're listening to The Current. Stay with us.

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Canada's track community calls for accountability, change in wake of misconduct allegations against top coach

Guests: Krista DuChene, Rachel Cliff, Bill MacMacking, Bruce Kidd

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. And you're listening to The Current. It is a story that has left Canada's track and field community reeling. On Saturday, The Globe and Mail published an investigation into sexual misconduct allegations made against one of this country's top coaches, Dave Scott-Thomas, who ran the University of Guelf's track program for more than 20 years and also coached Canadian national teams, was dismissed by the University for Unprofessional Conduct in December. According to The Globe, former student athlete Megan Brown alleges that Dave Scott-Thomas groomed her for a sexual relationship when she was 17 years old. Scott-Thomas has denied wrongdoing and none of the allegations made against him have been proven in court. But many questions remain and many people want answers. Rachel Cliff is a Vancouver based distance runner and Krista DuChene is an Olympic marathoner. Good morning to you both.

KRISTA DUCHENE: How are you doing?

RACHEL CLIFF: Good morning.

MG: Krista, how is the running community feeling in the wake of these allegations?

KRISTA DUCHENE: Were gutted. We're, you know, it's I've been thinking, what are the words to say? And I don't know. Typically, I can articulate my feelings. And this time I just find myself searching for what to say. It's some there's anger, there's sadness, there's grief. And there's just so many emotions that are going on with this by so many people across this whole entire country.

MG: Rachel, for you, what was your reaction when you when you heard this story?

RACHEL CLIFF: Certainly a lot of shock. You know, having been through the program, having you know, I've [unintelligible] Megan, one of these allegations with hindsight coming out and just knowing that was 6 years in my life where this is in the background and I didn't know is obviously very upsetting. Scott-Thomas has a huge role on the athletic community. There hasn't been an athlete who wasn't affected by him whether it's positive or negative.

MG: For people who are outside the track world, Krista. Just remind us what sort of a role the University of Golf's Track program, the Speed River Club, and Dave Scott-Thomas, who ran that club. Just remind us what sort of rule they all played in this sport over the last couple of decades.

KRISTA DUCHENE: Well, I mean, Dave Scott-Thomas was an amazing coach and he just made an amazing program. And the community has been thrilled with the success that's come from that. And, you know, Athletics Canada had him as a coach on some of their teams. One of those was the 2016 Olympic team, which I was under, unfortunately, looking at the details. It looks like a lot of people failed and institutions failed. And people are looking for answers and knowing what to do to move forward.

MG: Why did you want to run for him?

KRISTA DUCHENE: After the Olympics I just felt that it was time to make a move up in coaching. And I knew that both Reid Coolsaet and Eric Gillis have been coached by Scott Thomas. And it seems, you know, with them being husbands, dads, that that would be a good fit for me. And, you know, I was proud of being an alumni of Guelph. And so it made perfect sense for me to to join the Speed Burke 4 program and be coached by him.

MG: Did you ever hear of anything when it came to the allegations that Megan Brown has raised?

KRISTA DUCHENE: No. You know, honestly, I didn't even know that Megan went to Guelf?

KRISTA DUCHENE: No because when I raced against her, I only knew her as a U of T athlete. So once all of this started to surface and, you know, I was looking for answers, that's when I learned that she was from golf and she did attend the program for that period of time.

MG: What about for you, Rachel? You trained there as well. What was the culture like, especially for female athletes?

RACHEL CLIFF: Yeah, it's tough to find the words to explain what the actual call to is like. And again, living to focus on moving forward and learning from this. But I would say that my sentiment echoed similar that came out of the article. Nothing is extreme or is awful as what Megan's story was but I think that there was, within the woman team, kind of some feelings that maybe it wasn't the best fit for all of us, the program and we were there.

MG: Tell me more about that. What do you mean by that? Tell me more about that.

RACHEL CLIFF: I think there was a feeling that maybe it wasn't the most positive environment and maybe we hadn't been as close to a coach in university as we would have liked. But then again, nothing like what these allegations have come out with.

MG: Had you heard anything about these allegations? Did you hear any whispers around them?

RACHEL CLIFF: Nothing that- there was no reason. It was definitely hidden, really, really well hidden you could say.

MG: These allegations haven't been proven in courts. Dave Scott-Thomas, through his lawyer, told The Globe that they're unsubstantiated and inaccurate. We asked him for an interview through his lawyer. She declined to comment. When you try to process this story, Krista, what are the questions that it raises for you?

KRISTA DUCHENE: Well, accountability, people are looking for answers. People are wanting to know where did we fail, where mistakes made and people need to step up and explain. And, you know, I think we can have every system in place to create a safe environment. And as soon as one person can get around that. That's where we have a problem when no one is going to step up and be accountable.

MG: To a lot of people, this ends up being a story about the coaches and those who are under the power and the influence of those coaches. We spoke with Paula Schnurr, who is the head cross country and track coach at McMaster University. Have a listen to what she said.

SOUNDCLIP

My one responsibility as a coaches is to be able to have a safe, comfortable, inclusive environment where athletes can perform and train at their best. There are a lot of excellent male coaches out there who are doing great things, coaching female athletes and encouraging women to be to take charge of who they are as a runner and to empower them to be proactive in any issues that are necessary.

MG: Rachel, how much power do runners, especially women, have when it comes to the influence of their coaches?

RACHEL CLIFF: I worked with several coaches in my life, and especially in recent years, there were two separate male coaches who I'd say were both heavily empowered me and built my confidence and kind of shaped me into the person man to be confident, to speak up and stand up for myself. I think with the right coaching environment being athlete is a huge opportunity and a huge gift.

MG: What about for you, Krista? I mean, coaches have enormous power and enormous influence. How much power do the runners, the people who are out there on the track trying to do the best, how much power do they have?

KRISTA DUCHENE: Well, I mean, I think this is a conversation that can be taken further than just running. I think in all sports, we see that coaches, when they're in a position of power, can definitely misuse it. They can be abusive in many forms and ways. And I think it's some, you know, calling them out on that. And it's also teaching children when they're young how to handle this. So with everything that's happened with Dave being my former coach and trying to explain it to our own kids, you know, over dinner time, we're teaching our kids about, you know, what's inappropriate. And my husband was saying to my eight year old daughter, you know, if you ever feel that gut feeling that something is not right, you tell someone, you talk to someone. I think that's what I see from this. I'm a coach myself and I coach her hockey team. And it's trying to take something positive out of this into the community so that we do what's right and we demand change. And again, going back to that message of accountability.

MG: Well, you talked about accountability and people are wondering about the role of your own amount of the University of Guelph in this. When these allegations were raised in 2006, there were many questions as to how the university responded. We asked the University of Guelf for comment. It declined to speak with us following the Globe's report. The administration released an apology which says in part: The university extends its apologies to all athletes, students and co-workers who experienced this behaviour. You went to the University of Guelph. Rachel. What do you make of how they're handling this?

RACHEL CLIFF: I think these things take time. And I think ultimately actions are going to speak a lot louder than words. Obviously, I think it goes without saying that I'm not happy that I was in this situation. I think that was a huge oversight on both the university and Athletics Canada's part to not kind of keep a close eye on the situation. It's going to take them some time. I I would suspect to come up with the best plan of action. And I think they're going to have to put a lot of work into really making the former athletes speaking with alumni and understand what exactly went wrong so they can stop this from happening. And I don't expect that to happen overnight.

MG: What about for you, Krista? I mean, take a look at Athletics Canada. This is the body that ostensibly represents athletes like yourself. It's face criticism as well for how it handled these allegations. Do you have questions for that organization?

KRISTA DUCHENE: Definitely. I mean, Megan's dad went to Athletics Canada, to the university, to the MP, and he was trying to basically save his daughter's life. And it fell on deaf ears. Or someone read it and just dismissed it. Didn't believe it. What not. Everyone has to step up and take their spot in saying that they made a mistake. And with that comes consequence. That's how change will happen is when there's consequence to big mistakes.

MG: Are the safeguards in place to ensure that something like what's been alleged here doesn't happen again, that the the interests and and the safety of athletes come first?

KRISTA DUCHENE: Well, this is where I struggle, to be honest, because I think I'm more of an optimist. Every system can be in place. Every parent can watch a video and agree that they're not going to yell at ref, abuse a player, do these things and they can the next day, you know, do what they said they wouldn't do. So that I find so frustrating, but yet it has to be done. You know, we have to continue to force change and to encourage people to be in for the other people, for their children, for the sport. And, you know, one thing that was mentioned in the article by Michael Doyle is one of the moms that said, I don't want my daughter to run. And I just think, no, we have to keep women in sport. We have to be strong and stand up. And we can't shy away from something like this. Of course, we want to protect our children, but we have to be out there and respect ourselves and demand more.

MG: I appreciate speaking to you both.

KRISTA DUCHENE: Thank you.

RACHEL CLIFF: Thank you.

MG: Rachel Cliff and Krista DusChene are both distance runners currently hoping to qualify for the Tokyo Olympics. Bill MacMackin is board chair of Athletics Canada. That's track and Field's governing body, Bill Micmac. And good morning to you.

Bill MACMACKIN: Good morning, Matt.

MG: The Globe and Mail says that Athletics Canada was aware of a sexual relationship between Dave Scott-Thomas and Megan Brown in 2006. Why was he still a national team coach after that?

Bill MACMACKIN: I guess before I go to that, I did just want to say that, you know, we were as shocked and saddened by what we've learned with Megan Brown story. And it was so well reported on the weekend. And publicly, I want to take a moment on behalf of our sport to say how sorry we are for what Megan, her family and her friends went through. And, you know, the spill-over effect as well to those athletes. You know, yesterday I had an opportunity to speak to Megan and express an apology personally. And it's very clear that our past leadership may have been aware of these allegations. And by our standards, enough wasn't done.

MG: So how is he still a coach after the leadership of Athletics Canada was aware of this sexual relationship?

Bill MACMACKIN: We can't really speak to all the details of where our processes broke down, where we are conducting a thorough investigation. Wanted the allegations against Mr. Scott-Thomas, but also internal review and turn ups of our own activities at the time and what broke down. We will dig into this with an idea, making sure we find out why this happened and how we can prevent in the future. And for the moment, we're really trying to focus on supporting the athletes that we have and making sure that we implement the changes that will. Well, we'll make sure this can't happen again.

MG: Well, you heard one of those athletes, Krista DuChene, saying that Megan Brown's own father contacted Athletics Canada with these allegations and got no response. How does something like that happen?

Bill MACMACKIN: It's really unclear to us how that could happen. And we're doing a thorough review and will address changes necessary to make sure that can't happen in the future. And I firmly believe today, in 2020, with the leadership we have in place and with the some of the structures we put in place around our independent commissioner's office that investigates complaints of stronger code of conduct, that that would not happen.

MG: The Globe and Mail reported that people at Athletics Canada were intoxicated by the success of Dave Scott-Thomas. Does that sound accurate?

Bill MACMACKIN: I'm not sure that's the case. I think that there's a definite interest in wanting to be able to have success in sport, but in no way do we condone this type of behaviour. And it's obvious that we need to make sure the processes are in place to have people like Megan feel comfortable and come forward, and other people around her to do that in today's world and report it and call it out. It's not acceptable,.

MG: The athlete counsel for Athletics Canada said in an open letter. And this is a quotation: "This inaction and dismissal perpetrated a culture of disempowerment of sex abuse victims:. Did Athletics Canada fail Megan Brown.

Bill MACMACKIN: I would say yes. I think the system has failed to respond to the concerns of athletes, and we're ultimately accountable to make sure that the going forward that we make our sport safer. And we've done a lot of work in the past year or two to evaluate. We've dealt with a number of conduct complaints and we've implemented mandates, support, mandatory sport training for our board or staff or coaches and officials. We've put further powers in place for our commissioner's office to investigate. We've just recently received a new report that's going to increase those powers further and create opportunity for whistleblower provisions. And I think a lot of it's also the culture of a safe place for athletes to report and feel comfortable. And that culture that the girls so eloquently spoke about a minute ago to feel confident that they can come forward and call out this behaviour again and make sure it doesn't happen.

MG: What's rotten in that culture if people don't feel comfortable in coming forward?

Bill MACMACKIN: Well, I think we see it in across society. It's very difficult. And I really want to applaud Megan's bravery in coming forward. But it's difficult for victims in the system makes it hard for them sometimes. And we see that side of sport as well. So, you know, we have athletes wraps around our table that have challenged us to make sure we create enough places for people to report bad behaviour in our sport. We have three athletes, reps out of 10 board members that are elected by their peers to be on our organization. And they have a council that's there for people to turn to. And we're trying to create as many touch points as possible for the athletes to report inappropriate behaviour. But I think even we heard with the girls, sometimes it gets buried deeply in the into the- and not everything gets reported. But we need them to feel comfortable that they can safely report those matters to us and we will act on them. This board will act on them.

MG: One of the reasons why perhaps people wouldn't feel comfortable in coming forward is because of that power structure where a coach who has great influence or receives a lot of financial support has an incredible influence over the future career of that athlete. What assurances do athletes have that given that power structure, allegations would still be investigated thoroughly?

Bill MACMACKIN: In our current environment, we have an independent office that will investigate complaints that totally independent of staff and our board of directors. They have a full autonomy and expectation that they would investigate these matters and we would encourage anybody that has concerns to bring them forward. They can rest assured that they will be investigated and followed up and acted on. And I think the track record of the last four years with the current management we have right now and the leadership that we've had at the board table demonstrates that we have acted on a number of complaints and we will be investigating and acting on this one as well, although we've already taken action based on the alleged allegations that we stand.

MG: Just finally that the article received a lot of attention, as you heard from Krista DuChene, shook a lot of parents and parents wonder not only whether their children should be involved in sport, but why they should trust the bodies that are there governing the sport to ensure that those bodies have their kid's best interests at heart. Why should parents trust an organization like Athletics Canada?

Bill MACMACKIN: Well, the vast majority of the people that we are involved in sport and in our sport are good, well-meaning people that have been well-trained to take care of the interests and the protection of our athletes. And I think you heard that again from the girls. I think parents can trust that. But there's no substitute for them also being involved in questioning the local coaches and local clubs and for that matter, getting involved to making sure that we create a safe space. We're prepared and committed at the national level to make change to ensure that this can't happen again. That was my assurance to Megan yesterday when I spoke to her. I think that things can come from this is an atmosphere where athletes take a bravery and are confident enough to step forward and speak up, but also that we act on it and make the necessary changes. I think parents can feel confident but they do also need to be involved in and make sure that their children are cared for at the local level.

MG: It's great to speak with you about this, Bill. Thank you.

Bill MACMACKIN: Thank you very much, Matt.

MG: Bill MacMackin is board chair of Athletics Canada. That's the governing body for track and field in this country. Bruce Kidd is a former Olympic track athlete, professor of kinesiology and physical education at the University of Toronto and a long time advocate for safe sport and fair play. Bruce Kidd. Good morning to you.

BRUCE KIDD: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What do you make of athletics? Canada's assertion that it has the pieces in place, the mechanisms are there to safeguard athletes from cases of alleged coach misconduct and something like what's being alleged when it comes to the story of Megan Brown couldn't happen again.

BRUCE KIDD: Well, it's better than it was in 2006. And I heard from Bill that they're making further changes, but I don't believe that's enough, because what they put in place is still controlled by Athletics Canada. And there's still conflict of interest or an apparent conflict of interest because of that control. And it gives very few people the assurance that athletes will really be protected. There's a call across Canada from athletes, from researchers, from many NSOs for a completely independent mechanism to protect athletes, to take complaints through every stage and to create a culture of safer sport.

MG: And NSO, I mean, that's what national sports organizations across sport.

BRUCE KIDD: That is correct. And I would much prefer if athletics candidate joined that coalition to call upon the federal government to create such a mechanism. We've done it before with the anti-doping regime administered by the Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport. We did it 20 years ago with the Sport Dispute Resolution Centre. So we have an example of creating completely independent mechanisms to provide safer sport.

MG: And with that, that would that take the power out of Athletics Canada again when it comes to that dynamic of the coach and the athlete, but also a coach who perhaps is really successful and has a program that generates a lot of money and a lot of attention. It takes that out of the hands of Athletics Canada. If you have that independent body?

BRUCE KIDD: Yes, it would. Yes, it would. And I think one of the reasons why Athletics Canada and other bodies are so conflicted is, as Krista said, they're intoxicated by the imperative to win the all of the incentives in the national system are towards the podium towards winning. And it's very hard to deal with a complaint that's going to take away from that. That might undermine the reputation of a coach, a sports body and so on. To ensure that, that the investigation of complaints is completely at arm's length from that, we need an independent body.

MG: You've been calling on Ottawa to do something like this for a while. We asked the Heritage Minister, Steven Guilbeault, whose portfolio includes sports, to talk to us. He wasn't available this morning. Why do you think that Ottawa hasn't acted on this issue yet?

BRUCE KIDD: You know, they are conflicted by the same imperative to win above all else that that we've been talking about here when in an earlier time there was much more emphasis upon values in Canadian sport. In the early 90s, after the Dublin commission, the anti-doping provision came out in an environment where we said Canadian sport has got to be value based sport. In the early aughts, when we created the Sport Dispute Resolutions Centre, there was also a concern that there'd be deeply embedded values in the Canadian sports system. In fact, a new legislation that came out of that same period put specific values, including safe sport in in the legislation.

MG: It's interesting. We're in Vancouver and it's the 10th anniversary of the Vancouver Olympics. And there was a large push. I mean, there's the program on the podium. But that whole idea of success and owning the podium, is that when things change?

BRUCE KIDD: You know, Kahar Kelly of The Globe and Mail in a very perceptive column the other day said exactly that, that the success of Own the Podium and Vancouver 2010 changed the culture. And it made Canadian sport dominated by the win-win-win ethic and the balance of the pursuit of excellence. But excellence includes respect for our values. That balance was lost and the whole pendulum switched towards win at all costs.

MG: Shirley Shirley, you can want to win and not have a culture that doesn't treat athletes the way that they deserve to be treated.

BRUCE KIDD: That is correct. And in an earlier generation, we said excellence includes anti-doping. Excellence includes equity. Excellence includes fairness to athletes. But I think and I'm puzzled by why Minister Guilbeault and his predecessor, Kirsty Duncan, have been so reluctant to go down the road to establishing a completely independent mechanism. And the only thing I can come up with that is that they're getting a pushback from those who fear that such a system would take away from winning. It would siphon money off from the high performance programs. That's only a suspicion. But that's certainly the feeling that I get. I mean, it wouldn't cost that much. We have the expertise. All of the athletes in the country are calling for it. The consensus, or it's not the consensus, the number of national team athletes who are calling for this is almost unanimous. So what why aren't they doing it?

MG: Just a minute or so left this story was a devastating investigation. Again, these are allegations, but there were a lot of people who have been rocked by what was in the story. Is this a turning point for Canadian sport?

BRUCE KIDD: I hope so. I hope so. I hope that whether it is the desire to prevent this or the fear that more of these are going to come forward. And again, the federal government will have to deal with a front page headline that whenever it is, that they'll be motivated to do the right thing. They'll have lots of support. There is a number of sports bodies who are in favour of this because they realise they don't have the capacity to do it themselves. It would win the support of the Canadian people. Coast to coast to coast. I am convinced.

MG: Bruce Kidd, it's great to speak with you, as always. Thank you.

BRUCE KIDD: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Bruce Kidd, former Olympic track athlete, professor of kinesiology and physical education at the University of Toronto. You can comment on this. We'd love to hear your thoughts on Twitter at the current CBC or through the Web site. Just click on the contact link at cbc.ca/thecurrent. Well, that is our program for today. We've been in Vancouver all week. And if you'd like to hear some of the highlights of our time here, including our town hall on Monday on Chinatown, some of the other things that we've been doing, I would suggest humbly that you subscribe to our new podcast. It's called The Current Weekly. And you can find that wherever you get your podcasts. You can also hear it through the new CBC Listen app. This trip to Vancouver was the first stop of what will be programs from across the country over the next year. So thank you to the fine folks here in Vancouver for welcoming us and we hopefully we'll see you in your town sooner rather than later. Spend a lot of time walking and running around this city. And there was something I noticed while I was here. And it's about architecture, a kind of house that I haven't actually seen really anywhere else. I'm told that these houses are called the Vancouver special. It's kind of shaped like a box. A low pitched roof, white stucco on the top half brick on the bottom. Locals have this love hate relationship with them. The city actually banned their construction in 1985, estimated that 10,000 of them had already been built. And so our last word today for Vancouver goes to Christopher Cheung. He reports on urban issues for the Tyee. Have a listen to what he has to say about the Vancouver special. I'm Matt Galloway in Vancouver. Thanks for listening to The Current and have a great weekend.

SOUNDCLIP

There's some debate about who actually created it, but it was built in the mid 60s in a time where builders were really thinking about function. So to maximise as much of a Vancouver lot as they could. You know, in the mid-sixties, this was when Canada started welcoming a lot of immigration. So with two levels, a lot of immigrant families who might not have the traditional nuclear family housing arrangement, they could do whatever they want with it. There was, you know, some snobbery at the time that these people were producing something that was very generic, kind of taking over the city. People saw that as Vancouver losing that British flavour that the city was built on. People have kind of embraced the Vancouver special, but they look at it as kind of this ugly duckling that's like, oh, this is ugly, but it's us. And if you really wanted to renovate them, they actually have a lot of potential to be improved. I don't really like that because that's kind of saying like, hey, you're kind of ugly, but with a little bit of makeup, you don't actually look that bad. I really think we should appreciate them as other beautiful in their own way and what they offered the city.

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Friday February 14, 2020 Full Transcript

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