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The AIH Transcript for February 07, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: Zone of contention. After several arrests the blockade of a British Columbia Pipeline Project, demonstrators prepare for the RCMP’s next advance into the traditional Indigenous territory.

CH: Changing history through her stories. Despite the wealth of worthy contenders, women writers take home far fewer literary prizes than male authors. But the creators of a new Canadian award with a big prize attached aim to balance the scales.

CO: Still holed up, but home. Getting out of China was tricky, but a Montreal family is now back in Canada — and back in quarantine with their two children on a military base.

CH: Watching it unfold all over again. The First World War looms large at Sunday night's Oscars, and 1917 is one of the favourites. Hear why a Canadian map specialist will be keeping a close eye on the action.

CO: Forget your heart. Follow your nose. A new study finds that when it comes to making decisions, we exercise the greatest degree of free will by simply breathing — especially out.

CH: And…. the beep goes on… and on and on. Mumbai has earned its reputation as the honking capital of the world, but the city has a new way to get drivers to stop blaring their grievances.

CH: As It Happens, the Friday edition. Radio that spends all day on the horn.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Wet'suwet'en latest, coronavirus: Trenton couple, McMaster 1917 map

Wet'suwet'en latest

Guest: Karla Tait

CH: People across Canada are showing their solidarity for Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs today — as they continue demonstrating against the construction of the Coastal GasLink pipeline in Northern B.C. Yesterday, the RCMP arrested six Wet'suwet'en supporters at the Gidimt'en checkpoint on a service road, which is used to access the construction site. Karla Tait is a Unist'ot'en member and the director of clinical services at the Unist'ot'en healing centre, which is located well beyond that checkpoint and within the RCMP's new exclusion zone. That's where we reached her — earlier today.

CO: Karla, can you describe the situation where you are right now?

KARLA TAIT: I am here at the Unist'ot'en healing centre. We're awaiting the imminent arrests by the RCMP and tactical units — who we understand have arrived at our neighbours encampment at the 44 kilometre mark.

CO: Right. And you're at the Kilometre 66 on this road, is that right?

KT: That's correct.

CO: Now, just, the RCMP have established this exclusion zone. Do you suspect that they are coming toward where you are now?

KT: Yes, we expect that they plan to advance and arrest and remove us from our unseated territory.

CO: And what will you do when they arrive?

KT: We will greet them with honour and uphold our dignity. We will be peaceful. We will be in ceremony, but we will steadfastly uphold our hereditary chiefs — who have not provided consent for this project and have not provided consent for the RCMP invasion of our unseated territory.

CO: I want to ask you more about that in a moment, but just on the arrival of the police. When they arrested six people at Kilometre 39 yesterday, they said people could leave or be arrested. Will you make that choice?

KT: I don't believe that they are giving people much of a choice when they arrive in tactical military gear at 5 a.m. in the morning. It's a great use and showing of force on unarmed people — who had established that area as a watch a watch camp for other visitors and supporters to come and witness the police activities. And you know the stance that our chiefs are making to maintain our unseated territory and to resist this pipeline.

CO: It does seem though that the RCMP, what they're doing, is that they are enforcing an injunction awarded by the B.C. Supreme Court. And it seems that the courts and the law is now saying that this pipeline can go ahead and has legal right to do that. What's your response to that?

KT: I think the lawful removal of Indigenous people from their un-surrendered territories has a long history in Canada. I think it's unacceptable in a time that Canada espouses to be pursuing reconciliatory relationships with us as Indigenous people. I think they are bending their laws and their rules and even their permitting process to push forward a project that really has no economic value to Canada given the market on LNG. And it simply feels like it's a show of force to make an example of us.

CO: Why did the talks fail? There were there were discussions between Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs and the government and Coastal GasLink company. So what broke down? Why did those talks fail?

KT: I think there was no good faith or earnest effort on the part of the province to create the conditions for a nation-to-nation talk. Premier Horgan had not agreed to meet with our hereditary chiefs. Instead, he offered the minister of aboriginal relations and reconciliation — who doesn't have any decision-making power on this matter. They also refused to honour the request of our chief to remove the police forces on our territory for the duration of those talks. So the province hasn't honoured or compromised or met us anywhere near the middle.

CO: But you know that the company and the governments say that band councils in the communities affected by the pipeline have agreed to the pipeline. They've signed agreements with elected officials. What about their rights?

KT: The authority of band councils only extend within the reserve boundaries. The federal government and the provincial government are fully aware of who holds the authority for decision making on unseated traditional territories as established by the 1997 court decision. So it directly affects our unseated territories because the pipeline runs through unseated territories — not through reserve boundries.

CO: Do you have a concern, do you have an awareness that matter what you do, this pipeline is going to go through that territory?

KT: I think when you know what you're doing is right, and in keeping with your millennials-long laws that honor and respect the territory that sustains you, you have to do the right thing. That same argument is exactly the line that CGL used to coerce many of the band councils into signing agreements in the first place. The threat that this will happen whether you say it cannot or not, and you might as well get some small economic benefit. That argument is never one that's going to cause our chiefs to falter or give up.

CO: When we spoke with Nathan Cullen yesterday, who is the liaison — appointed liaison — between all the parties, he said about the arrests yesterday he's felt shaken and sad. What are your emotions?

KT: There's just some hurt and [deep sigh] an emptiness, I think, in in the promise that Canada is making in what was supposed to be a new era for us. But, at the same time, I feel very hopeful and strong. I can sense there's a resurgence amongst Indigenous people and our allies to protect the land. because we recognize that it's a critical time to do so.

CO: Karla, we'll leave it there. And we'll be following the events. I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

KT: Thank you.

CO: Take care.

CH: Karla Tait is the director of clinical services at the Unist'ot'en healing centre in Northern B.C. We reached her within the RCMP exclusion zone near Houston. In a statement released after yesterday's arrests, the RCMP said, quote, "While optically, due to the number of police officers deployed, our presence may appear imposing. In reality, a minimal amount of force was required to support the arrests or removal of individuals from within the exclusion zone." The RCMP also says it is not preventing anyone within the exclusion zone from departing.

[Music: Slow piano]

Coronavirus: Trenton couple

Guests: Megan Millward, Lie Zhang

CH: Getting out of Wuhan was an obstacle all on its own. The next obstacle: staying busy, and healthy, for the next fourteen days in isolation. That's the new goal for 176 people who landed earlier today at Canadian Forces Base Trenton, Ontario. On Trenton's military base, guests at the Yukon Lodge motel won't be interacting with one another — but they will be permitted to leave their rooms for some fresh air. The last time we spoke to Megan Millward and Lie Zhang, the Montreal couple was anxious. Because Mr. Zhang is a permanent resident of Canada and not a citizen, the government had not included him on the flight manifest home. But they worked it out, and are safe and sound in Trenton now, with their two young kids. We reached them there.

CO: Megan and Leah. Welcome home, sort of.

LIE ZHANG: Thank you.

MEGAN MILLWARD: Thank you. We’re glad to be home

[Child talking in background]

MM: No, no, shush!

CO: Because they know you as Mom and Dad [laughing]

MM: You’re right.

LZ: Yeah.

CO: Well, you know, you know become kind of regular features on As It Happens at this point.

MM: It's, uh, it's a little surreal. Yeah.

CO: [laughing] Canadians have been following your story now. So how does it feel to be back in Canada, Lie?

LZ: Well, so right now, we just really feel relief — and also a little bit tired [crying in background]. But very excited, you know? And we know we're safe here. And we just feel very like it's like home.

CO: So it's good. This Yukon Lodge where you're going to spend the next couple of weeks, it's fine?

MM: Yes, it has everything we're going to need, I think. The most important things being: a bathtub, Wi-Fi and a television. [CO laughs] And I hear the food is really good. We're looking forward to that as well.

CO: How are your kids?

MM: They're doing well. They've been given teddy bears and colouring books and crayons. And I think it's a bit of an extended vacation for them.

CO: And you're getting a good reception there in Trenton?

MM: Yes, yes.

LZ: Yes.

MM: It was an extremely smooth process. The flight, and then to the hangar where they were doing the customs and the Red Cross processing, everything was really professional and smooth and everyone was very thoughtful and, yeah.

LZ: Right, yeah.

CO: How was the flight? Was there a level of anxiety because you're now confined with others — some of whom may be sick?

LZ: I think probably yes, because there's quite a lot of people on the plane. And there are so many like families like us. So basically, there's always crying babies around us — including our babies as well.

MM: Yeah.

LZ: Sometimes [laughing].

CO: Did they have to keep masks on the whole time?

MM: It wasn't mandatory, but everyone was doing it so, so we did. Our six-year-old was fine with the mask most of the time. The 2-year-old was not having it [CO laughs], but most of the two-year-olds were also not.

CO: Were there a lot of kids on the flight?

MM: Lots. And families with young children and got priority boarding, and we were all put together at the back. So there was a bit of a chorus or a symphony of screaming [CO chuckles] and crying children and babies.

CO: The last time we spoke, it was very touch-and-go, whether this was going to happen at all. Megan, I know you were quite stressed by that. But also because the possibility you'd have to leave Lie behind — your husband. Lie, so how was that for you that not knowing if they're going to let you on the flight?

LZ: That was like you know like a roller coaster up on the down. We had the news the last minute, and we were there for five or six hours before the required time. And I would just wait in line the last one to see the officials there. And then… you want to tell story?

MM: We got a surprise call from global affairs while we were waiting, and they just they asked for his passport number and expiry date and birth date and permanent residence number. So that kind of gave us a spark of hope again. And they got in touch with the embassy in Beijing, and eventually, things got moving. It almost didn't happen because we drove there, and we parked in the parking lot rather than the road outside the departures doors. And because we parked in the parking lot and went in on the wrong floor, we all got in. But if we'd gone in the way usually you would if you got dropped off by a taxi or something, he would have been stopped because he wasn't on the manifest. So he wouldn't have been allowed into the waiting lounge. So it was kind of an accident that we were all there. That he was there long enough for us to receive that call. Otherwise, he would've been you know on his way back to the countryside and too far away probably to come back for the flight.

LZ: Wow! that was a good mistake [MM laughing].

CO: Describe that moment when you knew you were all going home together?

LZ: Wow! We just hugged each other. We just feel so excited. I know it's going to be tough for Megan to deal with two kids. I was thinking about just try to convince the officials there just you know that the let me go was the kids because we know the Canadians, they always family first. So that was the hope.

CO: That was the Canadian view is that they that the families would stay together. They were fighting with the Chinese officials — who were saying, nope, you're not a Canadian. You don't get on the plane. So that was quite a fight, wasn't it?

MM: From what we hear, yes.

LZ: Yes, mm-hmm.

CO: And I know that the other thing is that at last we spoke, Megan, you were really concerned to get back to Montreal. You have a business, or I think Lie has a business, things had been neglected. Are you going to be able to run your affairs from the base in Trenton?

LZ: Right, yeah. So right now, because there's a low time difference, it will be much easier. We can make calls, emails.

MM: And if there's anything urgent that needs to be taken care of, it can be delegated or handled immediately because we're not asleep.

CO: [laughing] Okay, I can hear those kids. They’re being really patient with this phone call. I appreciate that. So you just have one more thing you have to do and that's to stay healthy?

MM: We'll do our absolute best. We have infinite bottles of hand sanitizer and bars of soap and things.

CO: And healthy kids.

LZ: Right, yeah.

MM: Healthy, energetic, finding 45 things you can do in a standard hotel room, kids [all laugh].

CO: Lie and Megan, again, welcome home. And I hope that it flies by this time for you in Trenton.

MM: Thank you so much.

LZ: Thank you.

CO: Take care. Bye-bye.

LZ: You too. Bye.

MM: Bye.

CH: Megan Millward and Lie Zhang are under quarantine for the next two weeks, with their two young children, at a military base in Trenton, Ontario. In Wuhan tonight, the flowers piled up at the entrance to the central hospital. They're next to a photo of Lee Wenliang. Dr Lee was punished by authorities in December. He had raised concerns on social media about what was then an unknown virus. That virus has now killed more than 600 people. And, overnight, it took the life of Lee Wenliang, who had himself become infected. His death has prompted postings of outrage on WeChat — many using the line, quote, "tonight, I blow the whistle for Wuhan." This evening, someone posted video of two men wearing orange jackets and medical masks approaching that photo of Lee Wenliang at the hospital entrance. They lay a bouquet. Then they take off their masks and raise something to their lips.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: a chorus of whistles]

CH: That was the sound of whistles being blown to honour Lee Wenliang. The Wuhan doctor was punished for raising concerns about the novel coronavirus. Now he has himself died after being infected.

[Music: Ambient instrumental]

McMaster 1917 map

Guest: Gord Beck

CH: War is hell. And the movie 1917 makes a more-thorough-than-usual attempt to depict that hell -- and to show you its dimensions. It's up for ten Oscars at this Sunday's Academy Awards — including a nomination for Best Picture. Sam Mendes is also nominated for Best Director for the film, which follows two English soldiers during the First World War, on a mission across a trench-riddled landscape to help prevent a German ambush. 1917 Has been celebrated for its realism and cinematography — which makes the story appear to roll out in real time. And Canada helped with that verisimilitude. A prop based on a 103-year-old map stored at McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario plays a crucial role in the film. Gord Beck is the university's library map specialist. We reached him in Hamilton. the film. Gord Beck is the university's library map specialist. We reached him in Hamilton.

CO: Gord, what was it like to get that call from the production team of 1917 asking you about your maps?

GORD BECK: Well, these things always kind of take you by surprise. You're not expecting to get a call like that — although we have received them before from movie companies. So, yeah, it really took me off guard.

CO: But this map is key to the story, isn't it? Can you describe it a bit more? What does it look like?

GB: Well, actually, it's not a trench map. So a lot of maps from World War One actually show individual trenches. But they can only show a very small area of geography. So quite often when generals or the higher ranking officials are planning operations over much larger areas, they're using sort of what we would consider today like a basic topographic map. So this map was from the exact date and time that was gonna take place in the movie, and the right area, but it was showing a little bit different tactical information. It was actually a map intended to show where German enemy units were located.

CO: And the story, without spoiling it, we’ll sort of just roughly sketch it out. It's these two young soldiers who have to have this mission. They must get to what they think are still enemy lines through Western Front of France. And to get a message through to another general to say stop this operation that’s coming within days because it's a trap. And so how is the map used? Because it actually shows up in a scene, doesn't it? Can you describe that?

GB: Yeah. So basically, the movie is set just at the beginning of the battle of Eris. And what a lot of Canadians might not realize is this battle is what the Canadian battle of Vimy Ridge was a part of. And at this period of time, the Germans are planning to pull back to newly created defensive line. So the allies in this movie mistake this retreat or this fall back as a full-blown retreat. And in this case, Benedict Cumberbatch’s character has pushed ahead chasing the Germans. And the other units have realized that this is a trap. That they're just falling back to better fortified conditions. And so the two main characters are being sent to relay a message to Benedict not to continue the attack because he's going to get wiped out.

CO: Of course, [laughing] he's the actor, Cumberbatch. And, of course, the other actor on the other side of the story — the beginning of it — is Colin Firth.

GB: That's right.

CO: Now, can you tell us the scene where Colin Firth is actually working with your map?

GB: That's right. So it actually happens right near the beginning — because the two soldiers are asked to go to the dugout and meet with the general — which is Colin Firth. And it's at that point they walk in and you see this dimly route lighted room and the map is kind of the centrepiece there. And he's basically laying out what these soldiers are going to have to do, showing them the map, actually specifically asks one of the characters if he's good with maps. And that was a big thing because these soldiers were in the trenches for years never being able to raise their head above the parapet without fear of having it shot off. So in order to find your way around through these rabbit warrens of trenches, you really had to rely on maps in World War One.

CO: What was it like for you to be looking — it’s not the real map because you wouldn't have allowed that, but a copy of it.

GB: no, no [laughing].

CO: So what was it like for you, a map that you know it, you actually have in your collection, does to see up on the big screen [chuckling], to see Colin Firth poring over it?

GB: Well, you know, Carol, it was kind of like actually taking a trip over to England and suddenly seeing a coworker's face in a crowd at the British Museum when you're visiting. It was like this familiar face, but in this out of context situation. Because I've been working with these maps for, well, I guess since about 2003, so about 17 years now. So they are kind of friendly faces, they're like family. And then to suddenly see one on the screen in that kind of a situation, it was kind of you know a very odd feeling.

CO: Then you have to I guess an odd feeling just looking at the map itself, when you see something that was actually used by these soldiers in a trench — soldiers who were so many of them killed. And so you must see some of that life that's actually on the map?

GB: Oh yeah. We have about 15-hundred World War One maps, and there are a number that have bullet holes in them, bloodstains on them, mud stains with fingerprints on them. A lot of them that have little hand-penciled little messages about finding you know a pair of German opera glasses in a trench that they just captured. So those kind of things are so immediate. It's like you know it happened 100 years ago, and you read that, and it's like it's happening right now.

CO: How accurate do you think the film is?

GB: There was a lot of attention to detail to the actual you know trench construction. And you know Sam Mendes, has made the decision obviously not to rely on a lot of CGI. So I give them a lot of credit for the sets that they created. I'm always impressed by movies that at least take this effort, you know? Because really, when you look at the map, you're not seeing a lot of detail in the film. And it passes by fairly quickly. But someone has gone to the effort to try and find an authentic map that's only going to have that little bit of film attention.

CO: Well, we'll see what the Oscars think on Sunday night of 1917. And it's good to talk to you. Thanks.

GB: Oh thanks, Carol.

CO: Bye, Gord.

GB: Bye-bye.

CH: Gord Beck is McMaster University's Library map specialist. We reached him in Hamilton.

[Music: Folk]

Mumbai honking

CH: Back in the day, you were told to keep your hands on the steering wheel in the ten o'clock and two o'clock positions. Nowadays, the preferred position is nine and three. What no one advises is that you remove one or both hands from the wheel and repeatedly punch the clock right in the middle of the face. We've all done it, of course. When another driver does something slightly hazardous and you need to honk your horn to let that driver know you're there, and that you despise them with a white-hot hatred. On the packed streets of Mumbai, though, that isn't a once-in-a-while thing. There is always non-stop honking, and there is never not honking. It's deafening. So the Mumbai police hatched a plan with a simple premise: people are honking because they're trying to get somewhere fast. So what if the honking itself slowed them down? Here's the sound from a video they tweeted out last week, with the hashtag "Honk Responsibly".

[sc]

ANNOUNCER: Welcome to the honking capital of the world.

[Sound: Honking]

ANNOUNCER: Here, people honk even when the signal is red. Maybe they think that by honking, they can make the signal turn green faster.

[lots of honking]

ANNOUNCER: We, the Mumbai police, very keen to do something about this.

[Music: World music]

ANNOUNCER: One day, we connected the civil metres to a few signal points around the city. Iv the decibel level went over 85, the signal would reset and stay red for longer.

CH: They mixed the music at honking volume there, so in case you missed it: Mumbai police hooked gadgets that register honking up to certain traffic lights. When people honk at those red lights — the lights stay red longer. Every frustrated beep actually extends the amount of time they wait for the light to turn green. That online PSA shows the results: hundreds of confused drivers, furiously hammering their horns — and watching as the countdown on the red light repeatedly resets to 90 seconds. And that online PSA concludes like this.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNOUNCER: Feel free to honk, that is if you don't mind waiting.

CH: Well, that's just sound advice. So if people choose to stop honking, they can finally hit the accelerator. And if they choose to keep honking — well, them's the brakes.

[Music: Horns… of a different kind!]

Part two: Carol Shields prize, Russian journalist

Carol Shields prize

Guest: Susan Swan

CH: From the Booker to the Nobel to the Pulitzer to the Giller, there's no shortage of literary prizes in this world. There is, however, a notable shortage of female winners of those prizes. That's something some countries have worked to correct. The UK's Women's Prize for Fiction has become one of the country's most prestigious, and nets its winners a cool 30-thousand pounds. Australia's Stella Prize is similarly rich. But Canada and the United States have been lagging behind. And Canadian novelist Susan Swan has noticed. It's why she and HarperCollins editor Janice Zawerbny have teamed up to launch the 150-thousand dollar Carol Shields Prize for Fiction. We reached Susan Swan in Toronto.

CO: Susan, what's so special about this award?

SUSAN SWAN: Well, it's a very unique award in that it is an award that is offered both in Canada and the U.S. to women — to women writers — for a piece of fiction, short story, or a novel.

CO: What difference do you think it will make?

SS: I think it'll make a big difference. For one thing, it will boost the sales of the books of the women who are nominated or win. And I think it will do a couple of other things as well. I think that it's already were developing a huge mentoring aspect to the prize. And then it will be in public record forever that these women won those prizes. And it will go a long way to making sure that women's fiction is you know recognized. Because, for instance, I think an author like Carol Shields — who often wrote about domestic settings and relationships — there would be a tendency traditionally to dismiss a woman writer who dealt with those themes as light weight. Oh yes, it's very good. But it's not really serious literature. And I think having the historical record of the winners and nominees and the celebrations changes that — shifts something.

CO: Now, it's interesting you didn't mention it that it's going to make some woman — some woman writer — well, not rich for a long time, but pretty well-off — 150-thousand dollar prize. This is going to be more than any other literary prize that we have here. So why so much money?

SS: Well, I thought we needed to go big. Because, first of all, it's not a national prize; it involves two countries. So that's a lot of writers. And then secondly, really, if it was a more modest amount, there'd be a tendency for people to think it was a niche prize. Oh, that's just the woman's prize. And not pay much attention to it. But this way you can't ignore us.

CO: Is it 150-thousand U.S.?

SS: It will change depending on who the corporate sponsor is for the actual prize money. And, at the moment, it's Canadian. But if an American sponsor comes in later in the game, you know sponsors don't last forever, then it will be in American currency. And we are you know we're halfway. We've raised the money for the prize itself and the related costs. But we're still on a fundraising push to raise money for the administrative costs.

CO: Now, it’s quite a roster of female writers who are supporting this prize and who have helped you to put it together. Can you tell us a bit about who you've recruited?

SS: [laughing] Oh my God, it's a long list, but yes. Margaret Atwood, Alice Munro, Louise Erdrich, Jane Smiley, Erica Yong, Dionne Brand, Francine Prose in the U.S. The list goes on. And they are our patrons. These are seasoned women writers. And then there's a huge pool of advocates who have helped with the fundraising. Who have been enthusiastic and supported the prize. And we've had also help from some professional fundraisers. You know it's taken almost a decade of work, of networking and receiving help from many, many groups of people.

CO: Now, I understand you've had some pushback from male authors, who’ve said things like where do you draw the line? Can you tell us about some of that response?

SS: Yeah. Initially, the prize was called the Rosalind Prize — after a Shakespearean character. And when we brought it out, sort of some discussion of that on Facebook originally, some male authors complained what on earth were we doing? Now, we'd have to have prizes for every ethnicity. And I pointed out that actually women represented every ethnicity. And so that was pretty funny. But when we changed the name to the Carol Shields Prize, we didn't really get any pushback because she's such a beloved figure.

CO: But on the issue of ethnicity, of course, women are still trying to get into the inner circle and to break through some serious barriers to their publication — that's why you're putting the prize up. But a lot of criticism in the publishing world that's still an old guard world — whether it's men or women, it's very white and very established. So how do you break that down?

SS: Well, I think the place where we're focusing most on diversity is in the selection of the jurors. I've had some advice from Roxane Gay in the States. And she said to you know widen your definition of diversity, to include transgender, to include people with disabilities, to include working-class, as well as race and ethnicity. We will work hard to build up a database of jurors that reflect all those aspects of human life.

CO: What else will you do? Cause I mean, there I would imagine there's a fair bit of suspicion that, yeah, this is just going to be a different kind of establishment, and will not include: First Nations Indigenous people and other ethnicities who are people trying to break in and trying to be part of that establishment.

SS: Well, we're working with Indigenous writers and women of colour writers. And they've been involved in the prize. You know we have no intention of just repeating what's been done before.

CO: In the world of men.

SS: That's right. I see this really as you know morphing into a big publishing network of women in the business who help other women, and older women helping younger women. But you know it will be a lot of information sharing. And we have mentoring programs where the writer who wins will pick an emerging writer, for instance, At Banff Centre. And they will spend two weeks at Banff Centre and do a workshop together and a public event. And we have another similar residency at Fogel Island in with the winner or nominee and an emerging writer. And then we have some ongoing discussions about providing awards to women who are writers and single mothers, and women who are writers and refugees. And we're working with a number of organizations to get those in place. These things are all time-consuming in terms of getting a contract figured out. But I'm pretty sure that they're going to happen.

CO: Susan, it’s great to talk to you. Thank you.

SS: Thank you, Carol.

CO: Bye.

CH: Susan Swan is the co-creator of the new Carol Shields Prize for Fiction, which will award 150-thousand dollars to a female or non-binary writer in Canada or the U.S. We reached Ms. Swan in Toronto.

[Music: Ambient instrumental]

Alouettes cheerleader

CH: Ally Pileggi isn't ready to put down her pom poms. Ms. Pileggi is a Montreal teacher. And for the last 5 CFL seasons, she's worked part-time job as a cheerleader for the Montreal Alouettes. This week, the football team's new owners announced that they're planning to play the new season without cheerleaders — which isn't going over very well with the five-thousand people who've signed a petition calling for the cheerleaders to return. And, as Ally Pileggi told CBC Montreal's Sabrina Marandola this morning, it's also not going over very well with the cheerleaders themselves.

SOUNDCLIP

ALLY PILEGGI: Oh, I was shocked. I had no idea that this was happening. For the most part, our team was set. We were we were ready for the auditions. All the dates were set.

SABRINA MARANDOLA: You just bought your uniform.

AP: Well, I bought my audition outfit.

SM: Your audition outfit.

AP: And I was getting ready. And I was you know preparing my body for the auditions. I was working out as soon as the holidays ended. I was getting ready for the audition process because it's quite long. So, to my understanding, we were having our auditions up until yesterday. So I was really shocked.

SM: The club says that this was for financial reasons. Is this something, Ally, you think you would do if there were no money in it?

AP: Absolutely.

SM: You would do it for free?

AP: I would. Going on the team, I didn't know if we were paid or not. I just kind of wanted to do this because it was my passion. I love to dance. And I didn't know if we were getting paid, and not all teams do get paid. We were one of the lucky teams that we were taking care of. And you know if they said to me we're doing pay cuts, and we're not going to keep paying you, do you still want to cheer? I would say yes because, honestly, it was just fun. It was just fun to be there. The girls and the guys that I met on this team are amazing. It's just an amazing experience. Like, I do it for the experience, not for the money.

SM: You really hear the emotion and the passion in your voice.

AP: Yeah.

SM: If you could talk to the new owners of the team, what would you tell them?

AP: I would just say that I hope that they one day reconsider — that I do respect their decision because it must have been a really hard decision to make. But we really do bring an amazing aspect to the stadium on game day. And I think that they would really benefit from having us back. So I hope that one day they do reconsider.

SM: And what's next for the rest… you're getting a little teary-eyed. Where do you go from here now, Ally?

AP: Well, I'm continuing to dance. I do teach at a dance studio, so at least I still get to keep my passion through that. I'm a first-year teacher as well, so I'm going to focus on being a teacher. And I'll be at the Alouettes games this season — just not on the sidelines, in the stands. So it'll be a bit of a different point of view, but I still support the Alouettes no matter what.

CH: Ally Pileggi has been a cheerleader for the CFL's Montreal Alouettes for the last five seasons. This week, the team announced it would be playing without cheerleaders this year.

[Music: Electronic]

Russian journalist

Guest: Elena Milashina

CH: Elena Milashina is no stranger to threats. But a violent assault on the Russian journalist has pushed the attacks against her to a disturbing level. Ms Milashina is an investigative reporter for the independent news outlet Novaya Gazeta. She was in Grozny, Chechnya this week — covering the trial of a local blogger. Last night, as she was entering her hotel with a lawyer, the pair were beaten by a group of women and men in the lobby. For years now, Ms. Milashina has had to watch her back. She published a shocking investigation in 2017, about how gay men in Chechnya were being kidnapped and tortured. She faced death threats for that story, and was forced into hiding. Elena Milashina is back in Moscow tonight. That's where we reached her.

CO: Elena, just how shaken are you by this violent attack against you last night?

ELENA MILASHINA: Well, it's not my first attack, so I'm kind of used to that kind of things. I'm pretty okay, but I can say that I'm shocked. I'm not sure about my friend and colleague, Marina, because she's very brave, and she was hard-working today because she had three court trials.

CO: Marina Dubrovina is the lawyer. She was the other woman who was with you.

EM: Yes, she's the lawyer. She came to protect her Chechen residents. And I came to cover this in Novaya Gazeta, yeah.

CO: So the attack on you — this physical attack — took place in the lobby of your hotel as you were returning from a cafe. Can you tell us what happened?

EM: So we got into the lobby of the hotel. And I noticed a bunch of people — man, women. We got to the elevator and suddenly some woman in very nice dress, but with blacks scarves on their heads. And they came and asked us why we’re protecting terrorists who killed their husbands.

CO: Sorry, that’s what they said to you?

EM: Yes, exactly. It very strange because the girls were very young, and that they were not looking like widows who lost their husbands. I was smiling and looking at them, not really understanding what's going on. We were just trying to push the button on the elevator. And suddenly, I just didn't have any time to answer even. She just pinch me on my face. And it was like a signal. And me and my Marina got on the floor, and a bunch of women and men, they were starting to hit us. And I didn't scream, but suddenly I understood that two girls were trying to buy my iPhone. And I have a lot of information inside it. So in some minutes, I begin to scream like fire!

CO: So these young women were hitting you, and hitting Marina Dubrovina as well. Could you call for help? Was there anybody who could assist you, or would assist you?

EM: I saw that a man — the front man who was letting people in and out in the lobby, he was watching us. I remember my thoughts that are you going to call police? And he was standing and looking at me [chuckling]. And I finally understood he's not going to move even. So it's a lot of people who were witnessing this.

CO: Right.

EM: But nobody did anything. As soon as I started to scream like fire, they said, okay, enough, we going out. And all those young widows — well, women [scoffs] — just stood up and went out.

CO: You're there as you were just saying because you're covering this trial of this blogger, but you're very well known for the reports you did on the kidnapping and torture of gay men and boys in Chechnya. You've been exposing the human rights abuses in Chechnya. Do you have reason to believe that this attack on you was because of your work?

EM: Well, this definitely is attack on my work. And this is the same attack that was happening with my friends and colleagues for many years. After Memorial — another prominent human rights organization — closed its offices in Chechnya, I stayed alone after that — and continued the work. And the authorities of Chechnya wasn't happy with this because they were trying to push all us out of Chechnya. But this story, it's very deep and it's very serious for them. I can’t tell you all the details because I'm gonna write about this story very soon. But it's very serious for them, and I know why. I just can't tell you right now because I'm working on a big story of this.

CO: I wonder what you're thinking during this beating because I know you've had friends and colleagues in journalism who have been killed for their work in Chechnya. Anna Politkovskaya is best known of those colleagues at your paper, Novaya Gazeta, who were murdered for their work. Was there any concern last night that this was going to get a lot worse — this attack?

EM: So this attack, it's just nothing compared to what the kinds of things could happen with us. They easily could kill people and get away with this. So I understand that Chechen authorities and the Chechen can police can do a lot of things and get away with this.

CO: I know you have been threatened by the Chechen President Ramzan Kadyrov.

EM: Many times. Many times.

CO: Personally for your reporting. Your colleagues have been attacked. They've been killed. You keep going back to Chechnya to report on this. What gives you the courage to keep doing that?

EM: It's not the courage. It's understanding that I am probably one of few people who can help those people who live in Chechnya right now. It looks like a million people is under the Kadyrov 's regime have no help, and live in very tough conditions. Can be killed any day, can be kidnapped, tortured. It's a miserable life, and nobody is helping them. I know a lot what's going on there. And I know how to write about the things that are going on there. I know how to get information. I have a lot of sources. I have trust of people. And we can't stop in this station. If we can help, if we can't take out of this nightmare at least one person, we should continue. That's why we continue.

CO: Elena, I'm going to say it is courage that keeps you returning — because you have a lot of that. And I'm glad you're okay from what happened last night. And I appreciate speaking with you tonight.

EM: Thank you for your attention and for solidarity.

CO: Take care.

EM: Yeah, you too. Bye-bye.

CH: Elena Milashina is an investigative reporter for independent Russian newspaper Novaya Gazeta. We reached her in Moscow.

[Music: Smooth jazz]

Free will breath

CH: [deep breath and exhale] Hear that? That right there is the sound of free will, baby. FYI, I thought about not saying "baby" at the end of that sentence, because I worried it might sound phony. But then I exhaled — like this [breathes out] and I was like, nah. That "baby"? That's coming straight from here. FYI, I'm not tapping my heart. I'm tapping my nose. Because according to a new study out of Switzerland, it's our breathing — not our heart — that plays a big role in the decisions we make —especially when we breathe out. Scientists at the Ecole polytechnique federale de Lausanne have been grappling with that age-old philosophical question: does free will exist? Or are we just slaves to a complex network of neurons, shaped entirely by our genes and environment? Science has long indicated the second thing — that much isn't new. Decades ago, neurologists identified a signal that the brain sends out before you're even aware that you want to move. They called it the "readiness potential". Their discovery put the whole idea of free will in doubt. It seemed to show that your body knows what you'll do even before you do. And this latest study builds on that evidence. Subjects were asked to press a button at will — while the researchers monitored their brain, breathing, and heart activity. The researchers noted that the participants' choices coincided with their breathing cycle — not their heartbeat. And that the "readiness potential" area of their brain was most active when a subject was exhaling, rather than inhaling. That was inhaling — even though they weren't aware of it. So if you really want to know yourself, listen to your nose, I guess?

[Music: Bluegrass]

Part three: B.C. judge retires, Vatican homeless shelter

B.C. judge retires

Guest: Tom Grove

CH: Tom Gove has pounded his gavel for the last time. Last Thursday, the B.C. Provincial Court Judge presided over a final case. Colleagues, family, and friends gathered in his courtroom to celebrate, and look back at Mr. Gove's decades-long legal career. Mr. Gove was called to the bar in the 1970s. As a lawyer, he worked on a lot of cases related to child welfare. And later, as a judge, he led the Gove Inquiry into child protection, following the death of a five-year-old boy. We reached Tom Gove in Bucerias, Mexico.

CO: Mr Gove, I don't know how many judges get the kind of send-off you got from colleagues — people in court — who talked about the influence and impact you've had on the legal landscape of British Columbia. What was it like for you to hear those statements?

TOM GOVE: Well, it was very nice. It was nice to hear that what I'd been doing for the last 30 years has been well-received by my colleagues and by members of the community. When you're a judge, you never really know whether people like what you're doing or not because they're a bit timid about telling you that [chuckling].

CO: Well, you're not supposed to be liked, right? That's the point. [TG laughs] It's difficult to find that place where you're having an effect. And that you're not there to make friends, right?

TG: Exactly. No, you're there to do a fair and effective job. And that's what I hope I've done the last 30 years.

CO: You also presided over as you described it some extraordinary and distressing developmen1ts — changes over the 30 years of what you've seen come through your courtroom. Can you tell us some of that?

TG: Well, when I started as a judge 30 years ago, I worked in both the family court and in the criminal court. As a lawyer, I spent a lot of time in the criminal courts in Vancouver. So I was well aware of the street scene and the crime scene in Vancouver. And you know just like any large city, we've had drugs. We've had people committing crimes to support drug addiction. And we've had some mentally ill people. What's happened in the last several years in Vancouver is we see far more people who are mentally ill — seriously mentally ill — drug-addicted and, as a result, homeless — very difficult to house — coming through the courts. And so we find in both the community court that I worked in and helped set up and the regular criminal courts, we're doing a lot of medical work that frankly I don't think we're qualified to do. We’re seeing so many people who no one else seems to want to be able to care for or can care for. They go to hospital sometimes and they assault staff there, get charged with assault. And next thing we know, they're in the criminal courts before us. And we're ill-equipped to deal with the problems that we're seeing for that clientele — which, unfortunately, is growing.

CO: Do you think the problem is that there are fewer places for them to go — there's less support out there. Or are there growing numbers of people who are in these desperate situations?

TG: I think there's growing numbers of people who are in these situations. And there certainly are not many places for them to go. You know those of us who practice law and worked in courts and Vancouver are quite acquainted with drug addiction. We've had heroin addicts since well before I was a lawyer. Heroin addicts are quite something different than what we're seeing today. We see heroin addicts, of course. But of people using drugs like crystal methamphetamine become brain damaged. They are they are really, really difficult to deal with.

CO: There’s another area I want to ask you about — which is the if the influence you had over British Columbia's child protection services. And you presided over probably one of the most important inquiries way back in 1995, when you looked at the death of a five-year-old boy who died while his mother had failed to provide basic care. And I read the executive summary of that. It’s just devastating to see the numbers of people who failed that boy before he ended up dead. And do you see that as something that has improved? Is there better attention to children who are in those kinds of situations now in British Columbia?

TG: Well, I'm satisfied that after the inquiry handed in its final report, that the government in setting up what is called the Ministry for Child and Family development took the problem very seriously. And I'm satisfied that in the early years there was an improvement with respect to the protection of children in British Columbia. I'm not so convinced that that protection has carried on. And I'm sometimes distraught today when I hear stories, unfortunately, anecdotal, but stories about children still being being left in situations as poor Matthew was.

CO: And yet, the recommendations you made were to have more people, better qualified, better training. It sounds very similar to what you think might help the numbers of people you see in your court now, or you have been seeing in your court, who need other kinds of attention. I mean where is that safety net? Do you feel that it's more threadbare than ever?

TG: Well, you're right. There's definitely a parallel in the provision of services — whether they be vulnerable children or whether they be vulnerable adults with mental disorders. I don't know that we're providing the necessary safety net with respect to either. The child welfare systems across Canada — and beyond Canada — are always under pressure as to whether they should be emphasizing protecting children, or whether they should be emphasizing keeping families together. So it's almost a back-and-forth. I worry when I hear about the number of children who are returned to their families and are found in terrible situations sometime later. On the other hand, there's no question that helping families to care for their children is the best outcome that children can have — assuming they can do so safely.

CO: You are retired, and you are I think having a vacation right now, much deserved. But is there more for you to do? Do you see you see some role you want to carve out for yourself in the same thing, in social services?

TG: Well, I have nothing planned for myself. [chuckling] I plan to enjoy a few weeks in the sun in Mexico. But no, I'm still keenly interested in the social areas of both families and children and adults. If something comes along that interests me, I'd be very happy to be involved.

CO: Well, I suspect we've not seen the last of you, Mr Gove [laughing]. And I hope that's the case. Enjoy your retirement, enjoy your vacation. And thank you for speaking with us.

TG: Thank you, Carol.

CH: That was now-retired B.C. provincial court judge, Tom Gove, in Bucerias, Mexico.

[Music: Indie rock]

Weinstein lawyer

CH: Over her career, Donna Rotunno has represented dozens of people accused of sexual misconduct. Now, she's the lead defense attorney in the high-profile case of Harvey Weinstein. The former movie producer's rape trial is going on in Manhattan right now. He denies all non-consensual sexual activity. On today's episode of the New York Times podcast "The Daily," Ms. Rotunno spoke with Megan Twohey. She's one of the investigative reporters who broke the story of Mr. Weinstein's alleged abuse. Towards the end of their conversation on the podcast today, Ms. Twohey asked Ms. Rotunna this question.

SOUNDCLIP

MEGAN TWOHEY: I had another question — which was whether or not you've been sexually assaulted?

DONNA ROTUNNO: I have not.

MT: Okay.

DR: I have not — because I would never put myself in that position.

MT: So you're saying… Actually, I'm sorry. So you're saying that you… you're saying that you have never been sexually assaulted because you would never put yourself in the position of being sexually assaulted?

DR: No, I I've always made choices — from college-age on — where I never drank too much. I never went home with someone that I didn't know. I just never put myself in any vulnerable circumstance, ever.

MT: Do you believe that every woman who's been sexually assaulted somehow put herself in that position — whether it was having drinks or agreeing to go to a hotel room?

DR: Absolutely not. But just as we make smart decisions when we walk out on the street at night, I think you have to make the same decisions when you're putting yourself in circumstances with other people. When we walk out at night, we look around, we make sure we have our phone, some people take Mace, we take precautions. And all I'm saying is that women should take precautions.

MT: Do you think it's possible for women to take all of those precautions and still be sexually assaulted? To still be pulled into a dark alley?

DR: Totally different kind of conversation. Being pulled into a dark alley is a totally different conversation.

MT: So you are talking about sexual assaults, women being sexually assaulted by somebody they know?

DR: Correct.

MT: Do you think it's possible for women to be sexually assaulted by somebody that they know, even if they've taken precautions?

DR: Sure. Anything's possible, Megan. It's not about what's possible. It's about trying to, again, minimize the risk. If you go out on a date with someone, and you go out for dinner, and you go out for drinks. And you know them sort of, and you know you're sort of maybe developing a relationship with them. And you make a choice to go into their home at the end of the night, what do you think could potentially happen? And if you're not prepared for what could potentially happen, I think we're kidding ourselves. And then to leave and say I had no idea that this person would maybe try to be sexual with me or have a sexual advance, I think is naive.

MT: I can't help but feel like you continue to place the burden of safety on women, on potential victims in general. Should the burden rest on them, or should it rest on the perpetrators?

DR: I think it should rest equally. And you know what we've moved this conversation so far away from what we were talking about but if you go out with someone… you know you can't have it both ways. We can't have things like Tinder — where people swipe right and go meet whoever they meet. And most of the time, those are sexual interactions. And then say you know what? I went out with them, and I went to their house, and I you know we you know we were flirting or kissing or whatever. And then say I had no idea that he may want to do this. You just can't have it both ways. So I'm saying that women need to be very clear about their intentions. I think women need to be very prepared for the circumstances they put themselves in. And I think absolutely women should take on equal risk that men are taking on. And the responsibility should be equal as well.

MT: Is there anything that you think that men need to do differently?

DR: Sure, I think men also need to be very clear about their intentions. And if I was a man in today's world, before I was engaging in sexual behaviour with any woman today, I would ask them to sign a consent form.

[dead silence]

MT: You are being serious?

DR: I'm being dead serious. I'm being dead serious. Because how easy is it for two people to engage in behaviour, and a day later, two days later, five days later, 27 years later, somebody say you know what? That's not what that was!

CH: That was Donna Rotunno, Harvey Weinstein's defense lawyer, on today's episode of the podcast "The Daily." She was speaking with investigative reporter Megan Twohey, who's also the author of the book "She Said: Breaking the Sexual Harassment Story That Helped Ignite a Movement."

[Music: Hip-hop]

Vatican homeless shelter

Guest: Carlo Santoro

CH: For luxury accommodation in the Vatican, Palazzo Migliori has it all: it sits right next to St. Peter's Square, and it's literally a palace — with a name that translates to "Palace of the Best". But because of Pope Francis, the 19th century building is being used to feed and house homeless people. It was renovated in November — and dozens are now making their homes there. Carlo Santoro is the shelter's director. We reached him in Rome.

CO: Carlo, can you describe what Palazzo Migliori looks like.

CARLO SANTORO: It's looks like more of a noble palace then a dormitory or a shelter. Five floors — one with the rooms with some frescoes. The second floor is with the chapel. And then the other two floors for the bedrooms.

CO: And is it quite beautiful?

CS: It is. I mean, actually, I have to tell you that it looks like a paradox. All those who visited the palace, they understand that probably many, many eyes just that looked at this place for just forming it into a hotel — very expensive hotel. Whereas [the pope] decided to make something for the poor.

CO: This is a very luxurious building. It's right near the Vatican — a really prime piece of real estate. But now, it's a palace for the homeless, is that right?

CS: Exactly. As soon as you open the window from a bedroom, for instance, it looks like you are just in the Basilica, in the square. It looks like to be in the house of the pope, as it is.

CO: And how many homeless people are staying there tonight?

CS: Thirty, thirty people. I think we have still some beds for very few people, but more or less, this would be exactly the number of beds we have, and the guest that we will let.

CO: And everybody has their own room?

CS: Yes, of course, and they're in they're not all single rooms. That's only very few single rooms. But the rooms are for two or three people together.

CO: Now, I've seen pictures of everyone sitting around a big table in a really grand room, having a meal together. So what are the people who are now staying at the shelter, what are they saying about their new home?

CS: I have to tell you that really here, the atmosphere is also given by the beautiful place. And it reminds me that what the pope said to us when he came. And he said the beauty heals.

CO: Beauty heals?

CS: Heals. So the beauty is something that makes us all better. So, anyway, it's important to have a place. Probably many people thought that it's a waste. That is to say it's too much for the poor. That probably many people felt that this place could be sold just to have the money for the poor. But we think that that it is a good paradox. That it is very beautiful. And the beauty heals, it’s true.

CO: And do the people there, are they responding to that beauty? Do you see that the pope is right that it's that it's helping to heal them?

CS: Absolutely. We have already three or four people already started to work again. And, I mean, the people know that from the very beginning that this place is temporary. It’s a temporary accommodation. So we try to help, one-by-one. We know quite well that this place can be a good point of reference for people who are totally ruthless some time. And they can restart from here a new life.

CO: So you think it's this this environment, not just that they have a place to stay, but the beauty of this palace, do you think it is having a special — a different — kind of effect on their mentality?

CS: I think that all the guests appreciate the beauty of the palace. But, of course, the beauty of the palace is not enough. Of course they are the guests — every guest — has to feel at home. Both the climate is given by the palace, and also by the personal friendship with everyone. So no one has to feel excluded. And they understand that they are privileged. There are still many people who are homeless, and we cannot give accommodation to everyone — particularly in this cold time. But I have tell you that our sensation is also that in many cases, the pope wants to give some very important and precise and visible signs to the people, but also to the church. First of all, to say that the poor are just in the very centre of the Church. But also that it's fundamental to find good solutions for those who have no house. And it's important that probably all the churches they try to find good solutions.

CO: Carlos, just finaly, what's on the menu today? What are people having for lunch or dinner?

CS: I think they are cooking. I'm just that close to the house, I have not yet arrived. But, anyway, I presume there is a soup because it's cold now. Soup and meatballs, and the vegetables and fruits. I think that, I hope, that someone of you has the possibility or the occasion to visit us personally.

CO: That sounds lovely. Carlo, I'm glad to speak with you. Thank you.

CS: Thank you. Thank you.

CO: Goodnight.

CS: Bye. Goodnight. Bye.

CH: We reached Carlo Santoro in Rome. For more on this story, go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Elevator music]

FOA: Tulsa massacre

CH: It was one of the most violent race riots in American history. In 1921, a mob of white people attacked a predominantly African-American neighbourhood in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Up to 300 people were killed — and hundreds of black-owned home and businesses were set ablaze. Despite the horrifying scale of the devastation, it's taken years for the city to publicly acknowledge the massacre. But this week, Mayor G.T. Bynum made an extraordinary announcement. Last year, researchers found evidence of a possible mass gravesite in Tulsa -- and now, Mayor Bynum will permit archaeologists to excavate the site. Local historians have long wondered whether mass graves were used. Back in October 2018, Carol Off with Mechelle Brown from the Greenwood Cultural Center, who has spent years documenting the race riots.

SOUNDCLIP

MB: Following the events of the riot — and during my conversations with some of the survivors when we were identifying survivors we asked them that very question. Why did they not share this history with their children and grandchildren? And some of the comments were that they didn't want to pass on those feelings of anger and resentment and bitterness that they felt. And you have to remember that African-Americans came back to a community that was completely devastated, they had nothing but the clothes on their back. But there were more churches in North Tulsa that all of Tulsa combined. And they decided almost as a community that they were going to simply put this into God's hands and focus on moving forward. So blacks didn't talk about it, whites didn't want to talk about it either because many of them participated in the event. They wanted to forget about it. They moved on, went back to work, went back to their normal lives as if nothing had happened. And so year-after-year goes by blacks aren't talking about, whites on talking about it. So today we have a community where people have been born and raised here and know very little about the events of the riot turned massacre or Black Wall Street.

CO: People now want to know the truth but are they concerned, are you concerned, about a lot of feelings being stirred up?

MB: I'm not concerned about feelings being stirred up because I think that we have dealt with that for the 21 years that I have been here at the Greenwood Cultural Center given historical tours. Those feelings have never truly been buried. We've always dealt with the attitude from some whites that this is Tulsa's dirty little secret, why are we talking about it, why is it important. We had a woman just a year ago or so say to us, ‘Why can't you get over it?’ Like ‘Why can't you just move forward?’ And we know that our community still deals with the emotions of resentment and hurt, pain, anger, frustration. We still carry those feelings with us. But I'm not worried about stirring up any feelings or animosity because it's important, it's something that has to be done in order for us to move forward.

CH: From October 2018, that was Mechelle Brown from the Greenwood Cultural Center in Tulsa. She was speaking with Carol about the 1921 Tulsa Massacre.

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February 07, 2020 episode transcript

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