Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2020

The AIH Transcript for February 03, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: An unthinkable price. Three men are dead after a party at an Airbnb in Toronto turned violent — and now a city councillor says it's time to delist short-term operators known as "ghost hotels".

CH: Ominous messaging. New audio surfaces of communication between the downed Ukrainian airliner and air traffic control. But Iran's not happy about the leak — and that’s put a cloud over its cooperation in the investigation.

CO: Murder in Mexico. Two men from one of the country's largest butterfly sanctuaries are found dead — putting the focus on conflict between conservationists and illegal loggers.

CH: On the same page. Mary Higgins Clark believed mystery novels had the power to bring order to a chaotic world. A fellow writer of the genre tells us how he was inspired by the late "Queen of Suspense."

CO: We're not in Kansas anymore, Mr. President. After Donald Trump credits the Wheat State with winning the Super Bowl, our guest — a Kansas City bartender -- serves up a well-deserved toast to Missouri.

CH: And...giving it his best shot. Firing your shotgun at a couple of deer might seem like an odd way to try to save them. But with their antlers locked, a Calgary wildlife officer had no other choice — and only one chance.

CH: As It Happens, the Monday edition. Radio that gives you more bucks for your bang.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Airbnb shooting, Mexico conservationist deaths, Kansas City mix-up

Airbnb shooting

Guest: Joe Cressy

CH: Airbnb say it's cracking down on house parties at its rental properties. But a Toronto city councillor says that crackdown is clearly failing. On Friday night, three men in their early 20s were shot and killed at an Airbnb rental in downtown Toronto. Police say the shooting took place inside the rental unit, and in the hallway, on the 32nd floor of a condo building. It's not the first time a shooting like this has happened at an Airbnb — it’s happened in Toronto, and also in Vancouver, Edmonton and Ottawa. Joe Cressy says enough is enough. He's the Toronto city councillor representing the ward where Friday's shooting took place.

CO: Councillor Cressy, I know you have spoken with people who live in this condo building where those people were shot. How are they taking it?

JOE CRESSY: In the wake of the shooting, certainly, we have tragically three families for those deceased who are dealing with the trauma. But we're also dealing with residents who have been significantly affected, and they're dealing with their own trauma. You know, it's often the case that after the caution tape goes down and after the police leave, that a neighbourhood is left to recover. And that's what the residents of this condo building in my downtown community are dealing with right now in the wake of Friday's shooting.

CO: What did they say about this Airbnb rental unit? This is in the 32 floor of a condominium building. Did they know that this was an Airbandb?

JC: It's an all too common situation in downtown condominiums in Toronto where we have what we refer to as “ghost hotels”. These are investor-purchased units that are not used for housing — which is what they were built for — but rather they're being used as ghost hotels for Airbandb and other short-term operators. And so for people who live in the building, what you're dealing with on a weekend is an endless stream of new guests and far too often parties. As has been the case six times now in the last year in the GTA, we've had shootings involved in some of these parties in these Airbnb suites.

CO: GTA is, of course, the Greater Toronto Area. And so are these ghost hotels are they legal?

JC: This is where it gets a little complicated. In 2017, the City of Toronto, we established a new regulatory framework for short-term hotel operators like Airbnb — short-term rentals. We said that absolutely people could use their primary residence as a short-term rental. But what we said you couldn't do it was the practice of people using their secondary units or in some cases we have people who are buying 5,10,15,20 units and using them for Airbnb units. That's taking housing off of the housing market and turning it into short-term rentals. In a city that desperately needs rental housing, this is contributing to the housing crisis. But it's also because of neighbourhood stability. You don't exactly have neighbours who are accountable. And so that's the policy the city has. I'm sad to say, Carol, that it has been caught up in a protracted legal case with appeals on it. And so the city is not able to enforce that policy today.

CO: So you have a policy, but you haven't got any teeth?

JC: We have a policy that's stuck in legal limbo. So in the city of Toronto, we know from research that there's nearly 7,000 properties that were zoned for and built for housing that are instead being used as ghost hotels. And so we're calling on Airbnb, and we formally have through a council motion, on them to be part of the solution and to delist those units. Up until now, they have not.

CO: Why would they agree to that, given that they're providing the service and there's no law against what they're doing?

JC: First and foremost, to be a good corporate citizen. And in doing so, to help be part of the housing solution for the rental housing crunch and also to help be part of the solution as it relates to the challenges we've had in safety in many of these party suites. But if that's not enough, if appealing to their sensibility isn't enough, then I would say the following: the city of Toronto has a policy framework. Yes, it's caught up in the courts, but it will come into effect. Already, the first appeal against our policy was struck down, and it's been further appealed to a divisional court. So it is only a matter of time.

CO: But Airbnb said in a statement that they have banned party houses. They have banned unauthorized parties on their platform. They look through sites to see if there are these kinds of bookings going on. They say they have a zero tolerance for the behaviour. So what else do you think they should be doing?

JC: So those are good words that they've used in their statement, but their actions don't meet them. And so in the building where we had this tragic shooting this past Friday, there is one owner who owns 19 different units all listed on the Airbnb — 19. And so if Airbnb was serious about helping us to address some of these challenges on housing and safety, they would delist all of those non-primary resident units.

CO: The condo property managers says they have banned short term Airbnb rentals in the building. But at the same time, Toronto Star interviewed a man they saw carrying a suitcase in the condo, and asked him if he was an Airbnb guest? And he said yes, but he was told he was to lie and say that he was staying with his cousin. Given that, I mean, how do you possibly crackdown?

JC: Well, and I think that's a great example of how voluntary enforcement isn't working. As soon as the legal appeals are completed, we'll be able to more rigorously enforce — and properly enforce — our new policy. And so what will that look like? It means that you'll have to be registered with the city. You're going to have to pay a municipal accommodation tax, just like hotels. And in doing so, we'll be able to check on an annual basis that you are, in fact, primary resident of the unit or the house where you are a short-term rental operator.

CO: Toronto Mayor John Tory, in his release, he talks about the need to do something about the gun violence in Toronto. And so is it possible that it's not the Airbnbs that are the reason why these things are happening. It is other factors — including the availability of the weapons?

JC: Carol, I think it's an important point. I think anybody who suggests that the cause of gun violence is short-term operators is being foolish in and completely unfair. But none of that means we should ignore the very real factor here — which is that when you have unaccountable party suites operated on a weekly basis in condominiums throughout the city where gun violence takes place that we can also seek to address that challenge as well.

CO: All right.

JC: It’s not the solution to gun violence, but we can be proactive in helping to fix it.

CO: Councillor Cressy, we'll leave it there. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

JC: Thank you, Carol.

CH: Joe Cressy is a Toronto city councillor, who represents a downtown ward where a fatal shooting took place at an Airbnb rental property last week. Three people were killed, and two injured. We reached Councillor Cressy in Toronto. In a statement, Airbnb said, quote, "We are deeply saddened by the tragedy that occurred in Toronto ,and our thoughts are with all who have been impacted." Unquote. The company says they have banned the guest who booked this unit where the shooting took place, and that no previous safety incidents had been reported there.

[Music: Rock riffing]

Mexico conservationist deaths

Guest: Veronica Calderon

CH: In Mexico, protecting delicate butterflies is becoming dangerous work. Homero Gomez Gonzalez was a long-time advocate for the monarch butterfly sanctuary in Michoacán state. The sanctuary is a lifeline for millions of butterflies, which make the journey there each year from Canada and the U.S. Mr. Gomez Gonzalez went missing in late January, and was found dead last week. And on Saturday, a butterfly tour guide named Raul Hernandez Romero was also found dead — his body badly beaten. Authorities haven't released a motive for the killings, but some suspicion has turned toward illegal loggers who operate in the area. Veronica Calderon is a freelance journalist who was at the sanctuary on the weekend. We reached her in Morelia, Mexico.

CO: Veronica, how are people at the monarch butterfly sanctuary reacting to the news of these two murders?

VERONICA CALDERON: I think we can say that this community is grieving because Homero Gomez’s murder was a turning point in a state already beaten by violence. It is one of the most violent states in Mexico, where a hundred persons are murdered each day. But this particular crime has struck a chord because this small community depends on his life with the forest, with the monarch butterflies and is really, really heartbroken.

CO: Can you tell us about this tour guide, first of all? The one that most recently killed, Raul Hernandez Romero, who was found dead I guess on Saturday. What was his job?

VC: Raul Hernandez was a tourist guide. He was a part of a really close — I would say close — group of workers in the sanctuary because there's four tourist guides there as well. There was the people who help with even the kitchen, they know each other really well. So when he went missing, it was truly terrifying.

CO: Tell us a bit about the sanctuary and the work that these men were doing — especially Mr. Gonzalez, who he was the face of the sanctuary, wasn't he, really on the videos that were posted? What does it look like? What kind of scene is that place?

VC: One of the most heartbreaking things about Homero Gomez Gonzalez videos, as you mentioned Carol, is that he is all the time is inviting people to know the sanctuary. He uses these phrases that are when it come on in these areas of Mexico. The monarch butterflies are the brides of the sun, the soul of the dead. The site is just beautiful. You can see these mesmerizing images of thousands and thousands and thousands of butterflies, who actually travelled two-thousand miles from Canada to come here to Mexico, and are the symbol — especially for Michoacán, and in Mexico, you might say. And the feeling to be in this kind of quiet, spectacular sight it's a really beautiful sight.

CO: And that's the beautiful connection Canada has with these places that these are butterflies that make that incredible journey from here.

VC: Yes.

CO: We see them departing, gathering to depart and knowing that they're going to be in this place — this sanctuary — which is now it seems to be under attack by those who would rather have that land for logging. Is that the case?

VC: Yes, yes, it is the case. And as you mentioned Carol, it's a really beautiful connection we Mexicans and Michoacáns have with Canada, for example, because the butterflies travel these thousands of miles just looking for a warmer place to spend here a few months and then return during the winter. This metaphor is really beautiful as the relations that our countries have in many aspects. So when we see that the crime in Mexico is putting at risk the sanctuaries that the butterflies have chosen for thousands of years, I might say, or hundreds of years, is really upsetting for many of us here.

CO: Of course, the tension here is that the loggers — it’s illegal logging, it's organized crime is behind it — the suspicion of many people is that it’s illegal logging and the mafias who run that logging who are behind these deaths. What evidence is there to support those ideas?

VC: One of the things that many people think here is that Homero was very active in social media and active to get more attention towards how important the sanctuary was and how important it is to take care of it. So these illegal logging and the organized crime maybe didn't like that he was getting a lot of attention to defend his homeland and to take care of that place. What many people think in the community is that the fact that that fame that was starting to spread in Mexico and in some other countries may lead to these crimes.

CO: What do you make of the idea that these men might have been killed because they were protecting monarch butterflies?

VC: I try to think that even though this is a really, really awful tragedy, I myself are Michoacánan. I am a reporter, but this is my home state. When he went missing —Homero first, and then this hopeless crime this weekend, I was so heartbroken because it meant like this is one of the very few things we have that are totally positive. And we're proud of it. And it's something that I would say the vast majority of Michoacános want to keep in good state [chuckle]. Why are people willing to put at risk even that? So it was shocking because when we start to think that we hit bottom, it seems like there's a hole under it. And it felt like that.

CO: Veronica, I hope that there is an investigation. I know very few of these crimes ever get solved, or anyone ever brought to justice, but we'll be following the story. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

VC: Thank you.

CH: Veronica Calderon is a freelance journalist. We reached her in Morelia, Mexico.

[Music: Somber ambience]

Kansas City mix-up

Guest: Jenn Tosatto

CH: Six years ago, he was a senior at McGill University studying to be a doctor. Now, Laurent Duvernay-Tardif is a Super Bowl champion. Last night, the offensive lineman became the first medical doctor to win a Super Bowl, after his team, the Kansas City Chiefs, beat the San Francisco 49ers 31-20. Mr. Duvernay-Tardif — a native of the Montreal suburb of Mont-Saint-Hilaire — was drafted into the NFL in 2014. But even after signing a multi-million dollar contract, he continued his med school studies in the off-season. He graduated two years ago. After the game last night, Laurent Duvernay-Tardif spoke with Sportsnet.

SOUNDCLIP

LAURENT DUVERNAY-TARDIF: I don't even realize it right now, you know? Three minutes ago, we were down ten points [deep laugh]. And then we scored three touchdown and we win this thing. This is amazing. This is my best moment ever.

ARASH MADANI: You're down ten, what's it like on the sideline? What are you guys talking about?

LDT: I mean, we're just talking about what to do, you know? We went to like a save-mode, so no huddle, trying to tire defence a little bit. And Pat, we know he's unbelievable in those situation, making the reads, making the call, staying calm and that's just what happened, you know? The momentum change, we start driving down the field, score touchdowns, score another one and then we finish up with like running the ball when everybody in the stadium know we're gonna run it for a touchdown. That was a great four quarter football for sure. Look at this! Everybody! Oh ohhhhh, oh [laughing].

AM: In the five games this season in playoffs, you guys have trailed by double digits, you've come back to win. What is it about the resilience of this team?

LDT: I think it's just show our character, you know? We have a lot of trust and confidence in our ability. We trust each other. And now we just go after it, you know? And no matter whether we're down or up, we just keep that a foot on the pedal. And we know we got to score points — especially against a good team like that.

AM: Laurent, for you personally, what a journey this has been. What does this mean to you, man?

LDT: I don't know, you know? I don't know. I've been studying the playbook and trying the best football player I can be for six years now. And to reach the top you know after they're playing Canadian football at McGill University, it's an amazing feeling, you know? And to do it also with my MD in my back pocket, It's you know I think now I can say I'm a pretty good student-athlete [laughing].

CH: That was Laurent Duvernay-Tardif, speaking with Sportsnet reporter Arash Madani. Last night, Mr. Duvernay-Tardif became the first medical doctor to win a Super Bowl — when the Kansas City Chiefs defeated the San Francisco 49ers. Kansas City residents were also basking in the glow of their big win. But all it took was a single tweet to burst that bubble — a tweet from their president. Donald Trump congratulated the Kansas City Chiefs, and, quote, "the Great State of Kansas." Jenn Tosatto thinks the president should study a map. She's is a long-time bartender in Kansas City — MISSOURI. And we reached her there.

CO: Jenn, just how often do you come across people who think that your Kansas City is actually in the state of Kansas?

JENN TOSATTO: Oh man, all the time. Working in a bar, you get so many people from all around the country. And, I mean, I see where that's you know an easy assumption to make — it's right there in the name. But yeah, we have you know traveling bands that come through, and they're like thank you, Kansas. And we're like, booo [CO and JT chuckle].

CO: But don't they know they're in Missouri when they say that?

JT: Some of them truly do not, actually [both chuckle again]. And I'm like, come one!

CO: Okay, it's one thing to get that confused, you're in a bar, or you're a band, and you're been on the road for like months or something. But we're talking about the president of the United States.

JT: The president of the United States. Here's the thing. If you're going to pretend to care about who won the Super Bowl, you should probably do enough research to know where they're from.

CO: What did you think when you read that, or you heard about it?

JT: I mean, I was immediately like bristled. You know, my feathers went up. Because I mean, let's be clear, I don't like the guy anyway. But you know, Missouri has in the last ten years done such amazing things in sports. I mean, look at the Cardinals, look at the Royals and now the Chiefs, and it's like we've worked hard to build up this reputation, don't go giving it to another state. They've got KU, let them ride KU. Chiefs are ours [both laugh].

CO: But you know, I mean, Fox News, okay, Fox News, one of their hosts, said today that it was no big deal. That it's like when people call them the New York Giants and they're in New Jersey. He said it's like you know it's not it's with isn't a natural mistake. I mean, it’s no biggie. What do you say to that?

JT: I say you know what? If Obama had said it, the Republicans would be super up in arms, and Fox News would have been crucifying him. And they know it! Again, it's different if you're some Joe Schmo that's just coming to visit. Yeah, I could totally understand that. But when you're the president of the United States, come on! But then again, I'm like why should I have expected any more?

CO: [chuckles] But there are two Kansas Cities, right? Maybe just explain this to people.

JT: There are. So Kansas City straddles the state line between Missouri and Kansas. But the two sides of Kansas City are really different. Kansas is definitely a more industrial side of the state — which is super awesome. But the Missouri side is where you got to find like downtown. And like the drinking district. And the super-cool artsy district. It's just Kansas City, Missouri is definitely developed more than KCK has. But KCK has its place too. Like I said, it's very much that that industrial side. But yeah, there's an old joke, and it said with a lot of love, that nobody would ever admit they're from Kansas City, Kansas [both laugh].

CO: I mean, so okay, so KCK as you’re calling it — which is the other Kansas City — are they wannabes?

JT: No, no, we still love em. I mean, we're still all one city. Like I said, it's a friendly kind of joking thing for us. But it's one of those things like for us we're in on the joke. So when other people come in and try to do it, it’s like no, no, no, you don't live here, you don't get to be a part of that joke, you know? It's like when you and your friends make fun of each other that's one thing, but when other people do, that's a totally different thing.

CO: Again, Kansas is like I mean we associate that with you know the “Wizard of Oz” and everything.

JT: Yeah, you just made a good point. They have “Wizard of Oz”. They can have “Wizard of Oz”, we get to keep the Chiefs [both laugh]. And, of course, all of this is very tongue-in-cheek, like we love KCK. In fact, it was really cool. I think the mayor of both sides actually just called a truce on offering incentives, trying to get companies to jump the boarder to come over to the other state because that's been a big thing in the last ten years or so.

CO: I suspect though you believe that there's just no comparing it, that the Missouri Kansas City has just got the leg up on this.

JT: You know, I can't help it, I mean, I didn't grow up here. I was a transplant. I came here my sophomore year of high school. And I always thought I would go back to New England when I had the chance. But I'll be damned if I didn't just fall in love with Kansas City, Missouri, that the people, the culture. I love the bar I work at. Just everything about it is so magical to me. So, you know, KCMO is pretty sacred to me. You know, I wear it like a badge of honour.

CO: And they don't even really have a name. You actually call it KCK, they don't even get to be called Kansas City, Kansas City, Kansas?

JT: [deep laugh] Typically, KCK. They’ll also call it “The Dot” because it's Wyandotte County. So, you know, we're gonna go over to The Dot.

CO: No we even calls it Kansas City?

JT: [laughing] No, typically around here, if you say KC, 98 per cent of people are going to assume you're talking about KCMO. And I guess that's where it is. I mean, when you live here, you are always assuming they mean KCMO. But everybody around the country assumes KCK. So it gets messy.

CO: Now, do you think that President Trump might swing around and apologize to Kansas City, Missouri at some point?

JT: Oh God, no.

CO: Maybe he’d stop by in your bar. Maybe he’d stop by and say sorry.

JT: You know, I don't even know if I'd let him get through the door.

CO: Oh, come on! He’s gonna stop in.

JT: I'll make him an im-peach-and-mint cocktail. How’s that?

CO: Oh, okay. Okay, if someone came into your bar and they wanted to have just a toast to that great Super Bowl win, what would be a great drink to toast in your bar to that?

JT: Oh man, at my bar, we're toasting with Mezcal, baby.

CO: All right. Well, raise the glass and celebrate that great team of yours. It was an amazing game.

JT: It was such a good game, and Kansas City is electric today! It's amazing!

CO: Awe, that's great. Jenn, thanks so much.

JT: Thank you so much. Have a great day.

CO: You too. Bye.

JT: Bye.

CH: Jenn Tosatto is a bartender at the Mission Taco Joint in Kansas City — MISSOURI. We reached her there.

[Music: 60’s British pop]

Part two: Iran investigation latest, deer antler shot

Iran investigation latest

Guest: Payman Parseyan

CH: It was meant to be a joint investigation. But now, it's become disjointed — because the man running Iran's probe of the downing of Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752 is questioning whether he'll continue sharing evidence with his Ukrainian counterparts. One of the catalysts was the broadcast on Ukrainian TV of audio from Tehran's control tower, on the night Iranian missiles shot down the plane. The recording is scratchy. It includes a conversation in which an Iranian pilot tells the tower he saw a missile. And it includes the sound of an air traffic controller attempting to make contact with the doomed flight.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: A really scratch audio recording of a pilot]

CH: Payman Parseyan is among the many Edmontonians who lost friends on Flight 752. We reached Mr Parseyan in Edmonton.

CO: Mr Parsyan, when you heard that tape, what was your reaction?

PAYMAN PARSEYAN: You know, unfortunately, there was a lack of surprise. Iran's government hasn't been forthcoming about this investigation from the very start. They've got about 40 years of you know misleading their people, lying to their own people — let alone to other countries. So it's unfortunate to see that they again continue to mislead the international community in this regard.

CO: And we played the part that is English. It’s hard to hear, but of course, he is asking, he's trying to make contact with the plane that we know has already been shot down. But then the conversation he has in Farsi with the pilot, and the pilot is saying I see I see a series of lights like a missile. Is there something? The controller responds, where, how many miles away? The answer is, well, it seems to be coming from the direction of, well, where we are we know the missile was fired. And the controller says we’re not informed of this. And then he says, dear engineer, it was an explosion. And that's the conversation they have. So it was confirmed it seems right from the beginning that Iran knew that there was an explosion. Is that your understanding?

PP: Yeah, I mean, Iran's civil aviation is run by their government. And so again, this raises even more questions. That, okay, if the civil aviation was aware that this may have occurred, how and where was the breakdown of communication so that you know the president and others in the government weren't informed until Thursday night or Friday morning, after the crash?

CO: What questions does this tape raise about when they knew and what they did about that knowledge?

PP: The problem is the complexity of the way that Iran is run. So the Iranian government is the de jure government, but the IRGC is the de facto leadership. They're supposed to be just an arm of the Iranian National Military. But somehow this arm has turned Iran into a garrison state — almost like Burma, Myanmar. They control the army, they control foreign diplomacy, politics, the economy, they own several major companies and so this arm of the Iranian government is essentially running everything, but the face is what we see — the president and the ministers. So there's a breakdown of communication between these two.

CO: And you're referring to, of course, Iran's Revolutionary Guard.

PP: Correct.

CO: That shot down the Ukrainian plane. But Canada seems to be indicating — and has been indicating — that they felt that they had a good rapport with the Iranian government, with the civil authority. And that they were getting some cooperation and they were building on that relationship. Do you think the Canadian government has been naive about the contact it's had with Iran?

PP: Well, it seems so because the cooperation that they're talking about are the basic requirements. And as the investigation goes on it's not concessions made. The government of Iran isn't giving Canada a position that is you know privileged in the investigation. It seems like the basic requirement. The black box, they've told Canada they would let foreign nationals take it and examine it. Now it's, no, we're not going to let the country. And then it's, oh, we don't know what we're going to do with it. This information doesn't seem reliable.

CO: We spoke with the head of the Transport Safety Board here in Canada. She said even at that point, the lack of access to the black boxes was already on the edges of acceptable — which is past the point when that should have been turned over. Now it looks like Iran is saying they're not going to cooperate at all. What do you make of that?

PP: Well again, as they continue to raise even more red flags, I think federal bodies should be teaming together and starting to seriously look at this matter as a criminal investigation if every stage of what has happened in this tragedy has had some form of interference from Iran's Revolutionary Guard courts. Now, I recognize their civil authority, maybe trying to somehow work with the Canadian government. But it's this theocratic arm in Iran that essentially controls and governs the country. And so while they're in place, it doesn't seem like anything productive is going to happen.

CO: But now the declaration is that since that audio recording that we just heard and we're talking about, since that seems to have been leaked to the media in Ukraine, Iran's not going to cooperate any further. Do you think that's possible that Iran will, at some point, start to help again?

PP: Well, given the amount of times they flip-flopped on previous statements, I can't put anything past them. But you know, it's upsetting that had to be leaked. This is a major part of the evidence of what had occurred that night. And it shouldn't have to go to a media source in Ukraine to be released and then be classified as leaked evidence. This should be a basic part of a transparent and open investigation that's being done to get down to the bottom of why did this happen and how can we prevent this from happening ever again?

CO: What effect does this have, you're in contact with the families who lost their loved ones on that flight, what effect does it have on them that they get no answers about what happened?

PP: Well, you know, the unfortunate reality is that I don't know if their families were expecting a whole lot from the Iranian government as far as truth and overall conclusion of justice. That government has essentially they took over the funerals of those who died in the plane. They forced the people to have the Revolutionary Guard corpse running their funerals. And if they were to — like one of the spouses did — voice their concerns, he had to flee the country. This is the government that they're dealing with. And so we can't be treading nicely like we're playing with a cooperative partner. These are not people that want to work with an investigation. They're trying to lead it the direction that they want.

CO: Mr Parseyan, obviously we'll be following this story and developments. And I appreciate speaking with you today. Thank you.

PP: Thank you for having me.

CH: Payman Parseyan lost friends on Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752. We reached him in Edmonton.

[Music: jazz]

THC cake

CH: It wasn't just the secret ingredient. It was illegal. Police in Nova Scotia are investigating after kids and students at an elementary school function ate a cake believed to have contained THC — which the intoxicating component of cannabis. Kate Augustine has two daughters at the Eskasoni Immersion School, near Sydney, Nova Scotia. Her eight-year-old tested positive for THC. Ms. Augustine spoke to the CBC's Emma Davie about what happened.

SOUNDCLIP

KATE AUGUSTINE: My daughter came home from school Friday, and she was over at her grandparents’ house. And I went to go pick up after work. And she looked very tired. Like, she looked pale, and she just didn't look herself anymore. I took her back home, and I asked her what was wrong? And she just kept telling me she was tired and her eyes were sore. So I laid her down, and she was sweating all night. And I thought she was breaking out in a fever. And when she woke up in the morning, she was still groggy. So we went to hockey, and one of my friends told me if I heard about what happened at the school about the cakes? And I had no clue what she was talking about. She told me that they had a feast at the school, and they ordered off this woman. My daughter ate it. And the doctor had called him back, and he told me that one of my kids tested positive. Out of the four kids that when in, three tested positive and one tested negative. That would be my other daughter that tested negative.

EMMA DAVIE: Wow! So, at any point, did you hear from the school directly? Did they reach out to parents at all?

KA: They never reached out to me, no. And I still haven't heard from them. I'd like them to actually come and talk to me like instead of me reading stuff on social media. I have my numbers there, and they should have contacted me right away. I was really angry, and I'm hurt that happened to her. Like, I'm just happy she didn't have a really bad anxiety attack or have a heart attack. I couldn't even think about it because I was crying, and I was really hurt about my daughter being that sick.

CH: Kate Augustine's daughter is one of the children at Eskasoni Immersion School near Sydney, Nova Scotia at accidentally ate a cake believed to contain THC.

[Music: Celtic-like strings]

Deer antler shot

Guest: Shelley Wright

CH: Not far from their home, Shelley Wright's husband spotted two deer locked together by their antlers. So they called up Fish and Wildlife Services. And when a wildlife officer arrived, he figured there was one surefire way to free them. But he'd have to fire with extreme sureness. Shelley Wright managed to capture what happened next on video. We reached her in Foothills, Alberta.

CO: Shelly, how did your husband first come across these two deer?

SHELLY WRIGHT: He was coming home from town and drove by this one field, and he saw two deer. And one was down, and one was over top of it, and it just didn't look right to him. So he stopped and took a look and realized that they were locked — their antlers.

CO: So when he got home, what did what did he decide to do?

SW: Get hold of Fish and Wildlife. Fish and Wildlife came out, and we went with him out to the field where these two deer were. And when we got there, both deer were up — which was a good thing because we actually thought wanted passed away. So they were both up and struggling trying to get apart from each other.

CO: What was that like to see?

SW: Crazy. My husband and I are both hunters, and we run a taxidermy business, and we have never, ever come across something like this. We've seen it on TV, but never seen it up close. And it was pretty amazing to see.

CO: So what was the conversation about what would happen if these deer could not get their antlers unlocked?

SW: Well, if they can't get their antlers unlocked, the one — the smaller one — was already suffering pretty good. He was pretty played out. And you know a few more hours, and we'd be hitting dusk, and the coyotes would have been on him for sure. So they wouldn't have survived.

CO: So both of them probably would have died?

SW: Probably, probably.

CO: Wow, because the other one couldn't get out! Whatever happened, they're both gonna go down together?

SW: Exactly, exactly. So that was the big worry is that they weren't going to get a part. You could see that. They were locked tight. Like, there was no way they were getting apart.

CO: What was the discussion you had with what should be done, how to help them?

SW: Well, talking with Scott, Scott was saying that it would have been hard to tranquillize one and have it immobilized and then have the other one still so alive and energetic — because it would hurt the one that was tranquillized. So the best chance for these deer was for him to take the shot at the antler and separate them that way.

CO: And when you say him, you're referring to Sergeant Kallweit. This is the man who was this Fish and Wildlife Officer Scott Kallweit. He decided because the only way to do it was to get these deer separated. And he thought he could shoot the he could shoot the antler off of them?

SW: Yes.

CO: And so did he express confidence that he could pull that off?

SW: He's never done it before. So I think he was a little nervous about it himself. But he felt confident enough to do it.

CO: Right.

SW: It was a matter of you know just waiting for these deer to settle down long enough to take the shot.

CO: Yeah, because if they're thrashing around, you don't want to try and take that shot if you can't get a clear aim.

SW: Exactly, exactly. But the smaller one was pretty played out. So there were opportunities when they were both at rest. Like, the one would lay right down, and they would just stop for a little bit.

CO: Was there any consideration that he might have to kill one of the deer in order to save the other?

SW: Yes, that was discussed too. And that was before he saw the deer until he actually knew what shape they were in. That was a discussion.

CO: Okay, so he got ready, we got his aim going. What were you thinking when you saw him getting ready to take that shot?

SW: Oh, my heart was pounding. I was just excited the whole time watching this, just hoping he didn't miss, for sure. And when he took that shot, I couldn’t have been more happy to see the outcome.

CO: And tell us what you saw.

SW: I saw him take the shot, saw part of the antler fly off, and immediately both deers separated. And one went in one direction, and one went in the other, and it was just it was exciting. It was so good to see them go free.

CO: I've seen the video you made, and it's extraordinary how happy those deer, for one thing, how fast they moved.

SW: Exactly, exactly. They were gone [chuckling]. They were out of there.

CO: And what state was Scott Kallweit in at that point? [laughing] did he feel quite relived?

SW: He stood there, so his back was to us. I mean, he stood there for a minute, and he watched one run off in one direction, one ran off in the other. And then he turned around, and he looked at us with the most amazing smile on his face. I think he was in as much shock as we all were.

CO: It was just one shot?

SW: One shot. That's it. One shot.

CO: And he didn't miss.

SW: He didn't miss [CO chuckles].

CO: Was he as surprised as you were?

SW: I think so. I think so. It's the first time he's ever had to do that. So I'm sure he was as surprised too.

CO: Now, what happened in the piece of antler that was left behind?

SW: Scott has it. He did try to give it to my husband and me, but there was no way we would take it from him. He had to keep that as a reminder, as a trophy.

CO: Wow! And the deer will be losing those antlers pretty soon anyways, right?

SW: Yes. Even when we were walking in the field, we were actually picking up antlers that were already falling off of deer. So these two, it won't be long before they lose their antlers.

CO: Well, I guess they managed to get through hunting seasons [laughing], so it's a good thing that they could survive this as well.

SW: Exactly. I think that you know like I said, we hunt too, and when you see something like this, and you know you've passed that hunting season and they've made it this far, you want them to make it right till next hunting season. They deserve it.

CO: All right. We'll leave it there, Shelly. And thanks for telling us the story.

SW: Okay. Thank you very much.

CO: Bye.

SW: Bye.

CH: Shelley Wright witnessed a sharpshooting Calgary wildlife officer freeing two deer — by shooting the entangled antlers off of them. We reached Ms. Wright in Foothills, Alberta.

[Music: Up-tempo]

Part three: Coronavirus: Hong Kong border, Marry Higgins Clark obit

Coronavirus Hong Kong Border

Guest: Benjamin So

CH: Authorities in Hong Kong say that, with the cooperation of the Chinese government, they're doing what they have to do to stop the spread of the new coronavirus. Benjamin So isn't confident that they're doing enough. Dr So in in self-imposed quarantine in a Hong Kong hotel, after treating two patients who tested positive for the virus. And he says he supports a strike by local doctors — who want the bordercrossing with mainland China to be closed, in an effort to slow the spread. We reached Dr Benjamin So in Hong Kong.

CO: Dr So, your bosses have said that you are safe to return to work. So why have you put yourself into quarantine?

BENJAMIN SO: So, according to my bosses, they think that there isn't much scientific evidence behind quarantining after an exposure to a positive contact of the novel coronavirus. And I would contend that currently there isn't much scientific evidence for anything regarding this latest viral infection. And we don't know much about this virus. I would concede that you haven't been in full protective gear at the time when I encountered these patients who had later tested positive, I think that on balance of probabilities, I probably wouldn't have contracted the virus during that encounter. But I felt that it would be better to be safe than sorry. And primarily, I didn't want to affect my family or friends — the people around me. With a small chance that I could have contracted the virus, I could have become you the vector for this virus and spread it to the rest of my community.

CO: Right, and also because you're a doctor, you're dealing with a lot of people, and some of them with vulnerable health.

BS: Exactly, yes.

CO: One of the reasons that this crisis is so large is that people are getting conflicting information, aren’t they? About just how infectious it is, how the virus is transmitted. And you say that you can't at this point trust the decisions of your public health officials who say that you're fine. You question their judgment. So what does that tell us, the public, if you as a doctor don't trust the information you're getting from the health professionals?

BS: I think to be fair, neither the public health authorities nor pretty much anyone can say for sure they know everything about this virus. We're getting new information on it every day. Just yesterday, we learned that this virus could be passed out in the feces as well. So it's not really just your as respiratory secretions. It’s not just droplets. It can be other secretions as well. So we are learning more and more about this virus. And I think that from the perspective of the public health authorities, they do have a responsibility to ensure that there's as much accurate information out there for the public as possible. But to also address the very obvious concerns that the public has right now. We've seen a frenzy of people trying to buy all the masks that they possibly can get their hands on to try and get as much protective equipment as possible. I think there's a very real need for the government to deal with those concerns by the public.

CO: If there were a big outbreak in Hong Kong, how prepared, how able would you be to actually deal with that?

BS: I would say our health care system is not prepared for that at all. We had an outbreak of the SARS virus 17 years ago. And since then, there has been some efforts to try and increase the number of let's say isolation wards that we have, and also our capacity to deal with infectious diseases. Unfortunately, during this time, in the past 17 years, we've also had an increase in that population. It’s also aged significantly. And the occupancy rates in our medical wards are somewhere around 140 per cent year-round, even without this latest outbreak. So if a full-scale outbreak were to happen — which I certainly hope that it doesn't — our medical wards are simply not equipped to deal with these outbreaks. And already we've heard from the government today that we don't have enough masks. And they can't guarantee a steady supply of protective equipment that will last beyond three months. And that doesn't inspire much confidence in us or in the general public. Because we know that if an outbreak were to happen, it will probably last longer than that.

CO: Okay. So the developments today are Hong Kong's Chief Executive Carrie Lam has announced that there's be a tightening of Hong Kong's border with mainland China, but not a shutting down of the border — which is what you and many of the doctors in Hong Kong are saying that there should be. You should shut the border completely. So why do you think that the border should be closed completely?

BS: Well, because I think that when it comes to border control, it is pretty much a yes/no question. It's either open, or it's closed. You can't partially close it. Because Carrie Lam herself acknowledges as much that if you close up one border control point, then people will just go to the other border control points that are still open if they're really intent on coming to Hong Kong. And the border control points that she conveniently leaves open are actually the ones which have the most volume. So these are the ones that people typically use currently. And what we've seen in Hong Kong is that the vast majority of our cases of the novel coronavirus have been imported cases from mainland China. And already we're starting to see evidence of where it could have been a case of local spread — where the initial contact came from someone who came in from mainland China. As long as you have the risk of, let's say even ten or 20 people carrying the virus, coming in through the border. That could already trigger off a massive outbreak in Hong Kong, which is a very densely populated city. So if you want to do border control properly, you need to shut off all the border control points. This doesn't have to be permanent. This just has to be until the outbreak is under control in mainland China.

CO: The authorities though, have suggested that the motivation for this strike of the doctors and the health care workers is political. That this is a carryover from the protests in Hong Kong about mainland China's influence. And, in fact, one of the former hospital authority chairman said that you can hold a different political view and different thoughts, but go back to work so you can help combat the pandemic. What do you say to Dr. Wu?

BS: Well, I would actually throw the ball back at them in the sense that if you actually talk to frontline health care workers, and their people who over the past few months have been labeled as what we call yellow ribbons or blue ribbons, they‘re people with different political views who hold very similar opinions about how to deal with this particular outbreak. And we all recognize that practically speaking, closing off the source of you know all these infected cases is the only way to prevent a full-blown outbreak in Hong Kong. So I don't think that this necessarily has to be a political issue.

CO: Dr So, it's very late in Hong Kong. And you have much work to do, so I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

BS: Thank you very much.

CO: Goodnight.

BS: Goodnight.

CH: Dr. Benjamin So is an internal medicine resident at Queen Mary Hospital. We reached him in Hong Kong. And you can find that story, and more of our coronavirus coverage, on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Horns!]

Lewis Pugh swim

Guest: Lewis Pugh

CH: Some firsts you don't have to think twice about: of course, no one's done them before. They're dangerous, or ridiculous, or just incomprehensible. Well, you'll have no idea how Lewis Pugh did what he did. But he's very clear about why. Mr. Pugh is an endurance swimmer. On January 23rd, he became the first person to swim underneath the Antarctic ice sheet. He did it by plunging into a so-called "sub-glacial river", formed by melting ice. And he completed the swim in just a Speedo, a swim cap and goggles. As I said, the "how" is hard to get your head around. But the "why" is because Mr. Pugh is also the United Nations Patron of the Oceans — and he wants to highlight growing climate emergency. We reached him Lewis Pugh in London.

CO: Lewis, first of all, can you just describe the immediate sensation when you jump into Antarctic water like this?

LEWIS PUGH: Well, obviously, it's extremely cold. The water is zero degrees. But also, the air temperature is so cold, so the wind comes off the Antarctic plateau. It's a very, very windy area. Air temperature can easily be between minus-ten to minus-30 degrees. The first sensation when I dive in is just it's just very, very difficult to breathe. I'm gasping for air. Water is around zero degrees. I've got to get moving. I've got to get moving really quickly because a cold just grips you, and you’ve got to dive in with a very, very clear understanding of what you're going to try and achieve.

CO: And for most of us, well, all of us, the plan would be to get out right away. But you stayed for more than ten minutes for this swim. And how do you psych yourself to do that — because everything in your body must be telling you to get out?

LP: Yes, absolutely, everything is saying — screaming — get out, get out. You do have to psych yourself up, but one must be careful not to psych oneself out if that makes any sense. So I get in there with a very, very clear purpose. I was going to attempt to do a swim along the river, which went underneath the East Antarctic ice sheet. And so we estimated it would take me around about ten minutes to complete, and that's exactly what it was: ten-minutes-and-17-seconds. It felt at times that it felt like ten days. As I entered this tunnel, the colours were absolutely amazing. It was a turquoise blue. And then this river meandered underneath the ice sheet. And every time I went around a corner, it was a different colour. So it went from turquoise to a dark royal blue, and then to an Indigo, and then to a violet and then to an almost electric blue. As the tunnel got narrower and narrower, it became darker and darker. And there were incredibly beautiful stalactites hanging from the roof. And so I swam through this, and then eventually emerged from the darkness out onto the Antarctic ice sheet. It was absolutely beautiful. And there was my team at the end, obviously, very grateful to see me again.

CO: Did they not know, when you were in that tunnel, did they not know if and how you would emerge?

LP: Well, I for one, didn't want anybody else in that environment. I describe it as a low-risk, high-consequence environment. I say low-risk because I've been swimming now for 33 years. I've done swims in the Arctic. I did the first swim across the North Pole. I’ve swum in the Himalayas. I've done a lot of cold swims before. But it's certainly a high-consequence environment. Not only do you have the possibility of ice falling on top of you. But also, these rivers sometimes go down whirlpools. And then they drop hundreds of metres right down to the ground rock and then out to sea. Certainly, though, they were as relieved as I was when we both saw each other at the end.

CO: When you were there, and you're saying that it's so beautiful, and these sub-glacial lakes and rivers are just this most extraordinary place to see — especially under the water. But, at the same time, you are doing this in order to draw attention to what is happening in this environment. And what is it that you want people to understand?

LP: Well, yes, certainly, the aim of the swim was to draw attention. But that wasn't the primary aim. Anybody who doesn't know about climate change at the moment is either an ostrich or an Australian politician. What is happening in East Antarctica now is very, very frightening. But wherever I go, whether it be in the Arctic with the melting of the sea ice, or in Greenland, also with superglacial lakes, we need to join the dots about what is happening around the world. I have no doubt whatsoever that we are facing a climate catastrophe. So the aim of the swim was to encourage the nations who govern Antarctica to set up a marine protected area in Eastern Antarctica. So straight off the swim, I went to Moscow. I've had three days of discussions with President Putin's team. Under international law, 25 nations govern this region. They've all agreed to protect it, barring Russia and China. And I'm quietly confident after those discussions with President Putin’s team that we will be able to get this area fully protected at the end of the year.

CO: If you could imagine if nothing is done or a little is done in ten years from now, how altered will it be? How changed will it be from what you saw?

LP: Well, you see, a marine protected area protects an area from overfishing. So what we've seen in the Mediterranean, what we've seen in the North Sea and various other parts of the world, is that if you don't create marine protected areas, fishing fleets — industrial fishing fleets — will come in and just Hoover everything up. So a marine protected area doesn't on its own protect an area from climate change. Certainly, it'll make the area more resilient. So the creation of these marine protected areas has to go hand-in-hand with the climate change negotiations.

CO: Just finally back to you and your swim. What did you do to get warm after all of that?

LP: [dry laugh] I was really cold after the swim. We erected a tent on the side of the glacier. I jumped in. I put on all my clothes. And then I shivered for an awful long time. I then put on my crampons, and I had to climb out of this glacier, up a big ice wall and then eventually back to our campsite, which was a good three hours walk away from where we had done the swim. By that time, I was nice and warm again.

CO: So how long did it take to get the chill completely out of your bones then?

LP: That's a very, very interesting question. You know, when you've been really, really, really cold, you never quite warm up again. And what I mean by that is that that cold gnaws its way deep into your bones, and you never, ever, ever want to be that cold again. I came out of that swim thinking to myself, how many more have I got left inside me? CO: And did you have an answer?

LP: Not yet, but what I can say, and what I do promise, is that I will not stop swimming in these polar regions until they are properly and effectively protected.

CO: Lewis, It's really interesting to speak with you. I'm glad you're warm, at least enough. And thank you.

LP: Thank you so very, very much.

CO: Take care. Bye-bye.

LP: Bye-bye.

CH: Lewis Pugh is an endurance swimmer who became the first person to swim underneath the Antarctic ice sheet. We reached him in London. And if you want to see photos of his swim, head to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: jazz]

Ideas promo

CH: Tonight on Ideas, right after As It Happens: The Enright Files — conversations about Brexit, and countries that wall themselves off from their neighbours. On Friday night, Brexit finally became a reality, after three-and-a-half years of polarization, rancour, and political gridlock. And during that time since the referendum, Michael Enright, host of The Sunday Edition, had a number of conversations about the UK's divorce from the EU. And about what drives countries to put up barriers. Last year, he spoke with the Irish political commentator Fintan O'Toole, the author of "Heroic Failure: Brexit and the Politics of Pain". Here's Mr. O'Toole on the connection between Britain's post-Second World War experience — and its widespread disaffection for the European Union.

SOUNDCLIP

FINTAN O’TOOLE: If you listen to the debates in England, particularly. Not in Britain so much, but in England particularly, you have this constant reference back to the Second World War. The Blitz spirit, Dunkirk, you know, all that stuff over and over and over again. And it is very odd. But I think it goes back to a unique historical experience. So, to be fair to the English, they experienced something that nobody else in history has ever experienced — which is you win a really major war, arguably the major war. I mean, the Second World War is kind of existential for humanity, right? So there they're on the winning side in that. And yet, within ten years, they're looking at the very powers they defeated — the three big Axis powers: Germany, Italy and Japan. And they've all passed out Britain economically by the mid-1950s. It is an extraordinary experience I think for them. And it's never really gone away. I think the sense that we didn't get what we deserved out of winning the Second World War. We ceased to be a world power. We lost our empire. And then we kind of had to join the Common Market as it was then called. The European Union as it became. Really because we had no choice, we had nowhere else to go.

CH: Irish political commentator Fintan O'Toole. That's just one of the interviews featured tonight on "The Enright Files" on Ideas — an episode devoted to Brexit and countries walling themselves off from each other. That's coming up after As It Happens.

[Music: Elevator music]

Mary Higgins Clark obit

Guest: Harlan Coben

CH: Mary Higgins Clark had a very simple writing prompt. It went like this: "Suppose..." As in: suppose a mother looks in the backyard, and her children have vanished. Suppose a newlywed finds out her husband is not at all who she thought he was. Or suppose a real estate agent witnesses the murder of a client. The many ways to end a sentence starting with that one word earned Ms. Higgins Clark the title the "Queen of Suspense." And her reign left a huge mark on mystery writing. Mary Higgins Clark died on Friday in Florida. She was 92 years old. Back in 1986, she was Vicki Gabereau's guest on the CBC — and she spoke about the evolution of her chosen genre.

SOUNDCLIP

MARY HIGGINS CLARK: I think there was a time when mysteries were considered the stepchildren of the writing world. You know, we always used to tell at the Mystery Writers annual dinner, the great story of the lady who said to the writer, and what do you do? I'm a writer. And what do you write? I write mysteries. Pause, I only read good books. [both laugh]

VICKI GABEREAU: Oh yeah, but it's got a certain dignity now.

MHG: That’s gone.

VG: Yeah, that’s gone.

MHG: Gone, gone, gone. Because, you know, the mystery brings in a sense of orderliness to the world. Trouble has happened; something has gone terribly wrong. And at the end of a mystery-suspense novel, The universe is in order again.

CH: That's Mary Higgins Clark, speaking with Vicki Gabereau on CBC in 1986. Ms. Higgins Clark died on Friday. She was 92 years old. She leaves behind a great many mystery writers whose own careers were shaped by her mentorship. Harlan Coben is among them. We reached Mr. Coben in New York City.

CO: Harlan, first of all, I'm sorry for the loss of your friend.

HARLAN COBEN: Thank you very much.

CO: What's it like to hear the Queen of Suspense talking about that genre that you both loved so dearly?

HC: Oh, it chokes me up. You know, Mary was such an amazing person in so many ways, her personal life story, being left a widow in her 30s with five young children, and still becoming the Queen of Suspense. One of things that I think is really important for her readers to know is that Mary genuinely loved her readers. She loved being Mary Higgins Clark. There was no hiding from that. There was no pretense. She loved going out on the road. She loved meeting them. She loved talking to her readers. And I know they're going to miss her, and she would want them to know how much she cared about them

CO: Why did she make of having been called the Queen of Suspense? Did she ever say anything about that?

HC: I think she liked it. I think she got a kind of a kick out of it. You know, Mary really brought on. I mean, especially when you think of “Where are the Children” — the first big thriller that she wrote. That was really a game-changer in many ways. This sort of now we call it domestic suspense. But this idea of you know it’s just terrifying. I was friends with David Foster Wallace, who sadly is no longer with us. And remember David telling me, or he wrote a letter to me actually saying that that book scared the ef out of him. [CO laughs] So, you know, Mary really sort of created that that nail-biter tension into the domestic world, into a mother, or a family.

CO: It's astonishing when you think of it. This woman who is, well, at home with the kids, and getting writing done before she had to go to work. And that philosophy — that idea of hers — was that she's writing about something that this could be me, that could be my daughter, this could happen to us — which is a quote from some years ago that she looked at. These are nice people whose lives have been invaded.

HC: Yes. And she's been an influence on so many of us, and exactly that. So you think of it, he she is raising five young kids. And for those who don't know, Mary's husband died when Mary was in her 30s, with five children. And the very next day, her mother-in-law hearing the news dies. And this is not an era when people would help you out. So, you know, woke up, wrote from five to seven a.m. at a manual typewriter at her kitchen table. And then woke up the kids, got them ready to school and then worked full-time.

CO: Wow!

HC: So when people say to me I don't have time to write, I don't really believe you. [CO laughs] You have things in your life that are more important to you than writing. That’s what Mary and I used to talk about — and that's fine. But I don’t accept that. That means you're not going to be a writer.

CO: Right. And, of course, when hearing the news — the quick news clips — were talking about, Mary Higgins Clark, who commanded advances in the millions. But that that doesn't tell you about all those years she's spent not making that kind of money, does it?

HC: No, Mary, I think “Where are the Children?” came out, Mary was already in her mid-to-late 40s. And that book broke out in a very big way fairly fast. But she was not you know 22 years old. Mary was in her mid-to-late 40s with five children that she was raising. And I think that's part of what gave Mary a real appreciation for what she had. One quick story, we were at an event, and there was a fan there that was kind of very shyly looking at Mary. So Mary goes over and starts a conversation. This is how Mary was. She made sure she pulled the fan in and made the fan feel comfortable. And we're going into the dining hall, and she and the fan are still talking. So I said to Mary's husband John, I said, do you think I should go over and kind of save Mary? And John looks over and says maybe you need to save the fan. [both laughing] She was just so charming with everybody. Everybody was drawn to her. Everybody loved her.

CO: What was she like?

HC: Well, first off, she was extraordinarily generous to new writers. You know, when I first was starting out, before I was selling any books at all, Mary still treated me like a colleague. She was funny. She was hilarious. She loved a good time. You know, I think I saw her. Her granddaughter, Elizabeth Clark, who’s a wonderful, wonderful friend, was saying that even a night or two ago, on one of her last nights, when they asked her if she wanted more wine with dinner, she said always. [CO laughs] And if she went to something and saw somebody feeling left out, she would walk over and make sure that that person felt included. And she got her place. You know, she loved all the perks of being Mary Higgins Clark. We talked about this panel that we were on where the question was, you know what's the downside of being a best-selling author? And her answer was nothing.

CO: And she taught you things, you said that. What did she teach you?

HC: Well, she taught me about suspense a lot. And professionally, Mary really taught me how to behave as an author when you're on book tour, when you're engaged with readers, when you engaged with your editor and publisher. And she led by example. She would not leave till every single reader was happy and had a chance to meet her.

CO: You were at her 90th birthday party just a couple of years ago. Is there a favourite memory that you're going to cherish about Mary Higgins Clark?

HC: There are, you know, there's so many. One of the great things, Mary had formed a group which we're going to now retire. It must admit 50 years ago at least, called the Adams Roundtable — which was a bunch of mystery writers that we would meet and have dinner. And I think my favorite memories with Mary was actually the more recent years, when she was a little frailer, I would drive in. So we would just have time the two of us alone in the car. And her mind was as sharp as ever. And she was just such great company. Each time a book came out, she was still nervous about how her readers would respond to it. She was always doing something generous. My wife is honoured at a dinner. And Mary made sure she showed up for it. She was that kind of person, that kind of friend.

CO: Harlan, thanks for telling us about Mary.

HC: Thank you very much.

CO: Take care.

CH: Harlan Coben is the best-selling author of many mystery and thriller novels. We reached him in New York City. His friend and mentor Mary Higgins Clark died on Friday. She was 92 years old.

[Music: Glassy guitar and piano]

SOD: Men of the Deeps

CH: The Coal Bowl is not quite like any other basketball tournament. High school students from across Canada are in New Waterford, Nova Scotia this week to play hoops. But they're also getting a chance to learn about Cape Breton and its deep ties to coal mining — through music. The Men of the Deeps is a choir made up of former coal miners. And they visited the student-athletes to teach them to sing one of the island's best-loved songs — first the lyrics, then the tune. Here is some of what it sounded like.

SOUNDCLIP

STEPHEN MUISE: We rise again, in the waves out on the ocean. My name is Stephen Muise. I'm music teacher at Breton Education Centre. I'm also the conductor in Men of the Deeps. I think these players that come to this town, they really don't understand what this town is about until they get here. The camaraderie and the pride that we have in our own community is no different than their pride. But they live in this town for a whole week, so they get immersed in what it's about. And we thought what a way to kick off that feeling by getting them here and showing them how this town was built on its coal mining.

BRITTANY WENTZELL: This is an iconic Cape Breton song. What was it like to look out in the audience and have everybody singing along from everywhere across Canada?

SM: It's awesome. I mean we've used this song as Cape Bretoners as our own for so, so long. And for a situation like this where you have a tournament of students, and we rise again in the faces of our children. That first line of chorus says it all

[Sound: Singing]

[Sound: clapping and cheering]

CH: Student basketball players at the Coal Bowl tournament in New Waterford, Nova Scotia singing "Rise Again" with The Men of The Deeps. Thanks to CBC Radio's Brittany Wentzell for collecting that sound.

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

February 03, 2020 episode transcript

More Stories Like This